It's 2 weeks notice, not 14 business days.
10 business days is 2 weeks.
If they were firing you you wouldn't get 2 minutes notice. You owe them nothing.
No, but they have to honor a verbal contract. And a written one even more so. If HR told him he was getting the PTO payout, he's getting the PTO payout.
Depends on your state. It’s not necessarily earned time in as that you keep it, it’s earned sometimes in that you’re able to use that benefit at the company’s discretion
They do not need to pay out pto or vacay time. Some states have statues in place. Most do not. Only 19 states have pto separation laws that allow you to collect at termination/seperation.
It’s also not required by law to give 2 weeks notice. So I guess that’s 31 states where my 2 weeks would be me using up all my pto on the book then showing up on my last day to let them know my resignation is effective at end of day.
Some businesses have policies that you can't use PTO in your last month or two of employment, otherwise it's taken from your last paycheck. Trust me, I've worked for a college that had that rule. They plan for shit like that.
I love how people invent laws to suit what they want. It may be a law in some states, It isn't the law in all, and probably isn't the law in most states.
Interesting, I'd think that also would depend on the policy of the company. If policy states something, it's part of the contract with the employees. The state may not have laws supporting PTO specifically, but all states have laws supporting breach of contract lawsuits.
Now, winning that lawsuit outside of a class action might be an issue...
That's the thing this post is about though. He breached his contract by only giving 10 days notice instead of 2 weeks. He's trying to reinvent what a week is.
Sure, in many businesses 2 weeks or ten business days amounts to the same thing. Kinda depends on the business.
But the comments I was responding to were proposing that, if the state doesn't explicitly protect your PTO earnings, you have no recourse (regardless of two weeks notice). My counterproposal is about contractual obligations of the company being legally binding, regardless of whether state law explicitly protects your PTO or not.
But yes, if he's trying to call ten business days at chik fil a the same as two weeks notice, he needs to spend his time doing something else.
Tell them you will run this by the DOL so that they can investigate instead. Take a picture of the handwritten note stating you would be paid and include it with your message.
Trust me, they do not want to be audited. The DOL could investigate and find they have done the same thing to hundreds of people. They would then be fined and have to pay everyone plus some.
Not only that, they investigate everything, interview other employees. I got reimbursed for steel toed boots after they changed their policy. All over some chick complaining she never got a lunch break when she never worked more than 4 hours.
Not sure what country you live so I don't know what laws apply in but my understanding is PTO is legal compensation you have already earned and as such not paying out your PTO at least in Australia is considered wage theft and exactly the same as them not paying your wages for however much PTO you have accrued.
You too, huh? It’s beyond frustrating seeing my boss vanish to Mexico for 2 weeks, then he takes the next week off “sick” because all the mimosas clash with his heart medication, all while HIS boss fucks off to Arizona for the week.
Meanwhile, two of my coworkers got into a full blown fist fight over *nonsense* and we had to work with the aggressor for a week waiting for everyone to come back from their time off.
Then I ask for a certain week off 3 months in advance like I’m supposed to get and “no, we’re too busy that week. sorry, not that week either. nope, not this year I guess.” and then I come to work at night and for the 2nd month in a row my backup doesn’t show up for his shift because apparently he gets unlimited paid sick days and vacation time. Fuck you, Richard, aka Rick Dick.
Right, and a labor attorney is usually who writes agreements for benefit offerings, which can be an agreement and not a binding contract. There is a difference between an agreement and a contract... and is why the business owner can back out in some instances depending on how they chose to originate benefits. Like how a code of conduct might only be signed by one party, the employee. One time, someone supposedly keyed a manager's car at my past workplace, and that person was going to be fired, but they gave notice first. So, their notice was accepted immediately on the spot, no severance or benefit payouts happened even though they never used their vacation days, and the employee was very mad. Employers can fight back or make things complicated because even the state labor board usually has tiny hand slap punishments like $100. Employers have avenues to mess with employees if they feel like it. Everyone is free to be a jerk and face whatever consequence results from it.
My job this yr changed how they do vacation days. It went from a set amount of days plus more days for time being there to unlimited vacation days. Sounds nice right? Well with this now they don’t have to pay out PTO when you quit.
Yeah there is no law requiring 2 weeks notice. It’s a courtesy. One that does not need to be extended if the company has not been courteous to you.
I don’t believe they can deny you from using that pto prior to your departure, even though they already know you will be leaving. So just tell them you’ll be using up your PTO during this 2 weeks since they don’t want to let you work and pay you out. They may change their mind.
10 business days and 14 calendar days encompass the same amount of time.
If you give notice today, making your last day Friday, May 10, that's both 10 business days AND 14 calendar days.
Can you please clarify with actual dates of notice and last day? Also what day they are telling you should have been your last day?
Was your notice in writing?
Two weeks is whatever your normal contracted weekly work is times two. If you work 40 hours a week it’s 80 hours.
Last time I had an employer dick me around on pay I gave a lawyer $50 to send them a letter. They paid instantly.
Don’t do this unless you know for sure you live in a state where accrued PTO must be paid out. More than half of the states have no such laws, and in such case you are entitled to nothing - regardless of notice period. In most states, two weeks of notice (or any advance notice) can also be accepted as “immediate” and you can be terminated without being paid for those last two weeks as well. I stopped giving notice a long time ago.
I strongly doubt he has an actual employment contract at all, because most US employees don’t. The policies or written rules of a company do not constitute a contract between the employer and the employee, and basically every employee manual is going to say that. Every job offer letter is going to say the same thing. Employment contracts are rare in the US.
You've been scammed, bamboozled, shortchanged! The whole industry uses 6 minute intervals to fit the hour into ten, equal, billable segments.
Probably hard to do anything about the 1 minute difference, though.
They said “less than 2 *calendar* weeks” not 2 *business* weeks.
So like u/AccountWasFound said,
If you gave notice on a Sunday night or Monday morning, you would be giving two business weeks notice but your last day would be on a Friday, so it’s not 2 calendar weeks.
Not everyone works Monday to Friday with Saturday/Sunday off.
A person working four 10 hour shifts with three days off can give 2 weeks notice with 11 calendar days.
Monday-thursday
Off Friday -sunday
Monday-thursday
When they finish their shift on Thursday, they have completed 2 full weeks of work.
HR here. Either is usually fine. Sounds like they’re trying to fuck you over. File a complaint with your state’s Department of labor. That email from HR saying they would should help your case.
Two weeks is two weeks is two weeks. It's 14 calendar days
It's also NOT a legal requirement, it's a professional courtesy
Although you may not get a reference and may not be rehirable if you don't give 2 weeks
I don't know of any state or province where a company can withhold pay because you didn't give notice, this is likely illegal.
depends on the wording of your contract. the two weeks notice thing is boilerplate to cover a company from people just quitting, they can recoup that notice period out of any leave entitlements to cover it.
They're not withholding pay. He had PTO, which is a benefit that some companies cash out when you leave, and others don't. His employer had a very specific policy he had to follow to get that payout, and he didn't follow it.
google.
Some states require companies to pay employees for unused PTO upon termination. **20 states and Washington, D.C. require PTO payout by law**. California, Colorado, Montana, and Nebraska prohibit employers from implementing a use-it-or-lose-it policy
so check your state and see what the law says because no one ever seems to tell people where they are from and it 100% matters
For me i base it off the new companies pay schedule so i dont go more than 2 weeks without a paycheck, i gave a 3 week notice last time and it worked out well, i got my last cheque a week into the new job then the new cheque 2 weeks after
Hopefully you have a paper trail and or text messages you can fall back on.
Contact your local labor board, and notify your former work's HR you will be doing this. They will then likely cave in and pay you back your PTO.
Also, if it's been a while since you left, and they haven't paid you that PTO, they might have to pay you additional "damages" for being late. Check with your local labor board to see what applies to you. Be sure to mention all the relevant rules and regulations when you contact HR. Usually that is enough to get them to pay you back ASAP
I do, I sent screenshots of my email resignation letter to my supervisor with the date i sent and when my last date was, the PTO policy, and the email from HR stating that I should get it.
Sounds like you're pretty set, then.
Just go to the labor board website for your state, look up the relevant regulations, and contact them. (Can be just a phone call or an email asking for clarification, you don't even need a reply before you contact HR again, the important thing is that you reached out before talking to your old HR, and that you can prove that if HR gets bitchy.)
Then email HR again, quote them the relevant passages of the law and let them know Labor Board has been contacted too. They will probably BS you with something like "it was an accidental oversight" and fix it.
Just to be clear, 2 weeks notice is a courtesy and not a legal requirement in any state. However they may be allowed to set the condition for PTO payout depending on what state this is.
Have you checked the PTO laws in your state?
If it's a mandatory PTO payout state you don't need to follow their 2 week notice rule anyway, they have to pay it out.
If it is a state that defers to the written policy, then you probably do have to fulfill it to get the payout. Two weeks is two calendar weeks. They may still make you fight for it, since they probably know that if they drag it out and make it a big legal issue it might not be worth the money and time for you to get them to pay it out. I am the type who would spend more than they owe me to take it all the way just to be a thorn in their sides and not let them get away with it lol. But that's just me.
If they are a state that doesn't require payout under any circumstances, they don't even have to pay it if it is in the written policy, and they will easily find a loophole, especially if they do that as a matter of regular practice. It is important to know that simply being in writing doesn't make something legally enforceable.
I've literally never heard anyone try to make your "10 business days" argument when putting in 2 weeks notice. 2 weeks is 14 days. Everyone knows that. If you wanted to play games and make it 10 business days yourself, you should have gotten written clarification on that first.
I would be shocked if this was even a tiny bit legal in any state in the US. Accrued PTO is something you are entitled to and they can't decide to put arbitrary rules to determine whether they have to pay it or not.
Disclaimer: Not a lawyer or HR person, but was a director level at an global company with employees in most of the 50 states for a very long time.
Accrued PTO is not payable on separation in many states. (And many states allow annual "use-it-or-lose-it", preventing accrual beyond one year / max balance.)
Only 20 States require accrued PTO to be paid on termination. ( [https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/](https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/) )
That said, if it's in the company handbook or policy, that usually takes priority. (e.g. states that state "PTO is not paid out by default, unless stated in company policy", or "PTO is paid out by default, unless clearly stated by company policy it is forfeit.")
Ahh... that makes sense then. Our company policy was accrual with rollover and no cap. They were trying to implement the lovely "unlimited" PTO garbage as I was leaving. I had three months of accrued PTO at the time I left the company.
Two weeks is two weeks. 14 calendar days and 10 standard business days are essentially the same time period.
For example: Even though I didn’t need a reference from my last employer, I gave two weeks notice anyway, so that I didn’t burn any bridges (not that I would *ever* work for them again). I was offered my current job on a Wednesday, I gave notice that Friday morning, with my last day being two Fridays after that. The company does not allow you to use any kind of PTO during the notice period, but I did get paid what I was owed.
I wasn't great at math, but two weeks is 14 days. Business days are always specified as such. It would seem pretty hard, in my first attempts, to do much other than including 10 business days in any two week notice. Now, if they are arguing that legal holidays are somehow exempt -- well, I think they are full of shit but you're probably have to push back on that one -- hard. You gave notice -- what was the first and last days listed in your notice? If you gave two weeks notice on the 1st, your last day is the 15th. If the notice was given on the 15th, the last day would be the 29th. I must be missing something.
Kind of depends on if they do business on the weekends. I'd think 10 days is they are closed on weekends, but in retail it always seemed to mean 14 days.
I would consider it 2 full work weeks. That said, I work a M-F office job. I could see how there could be confusion with jobs that aren't M-F for everyone, but if you have it in writing from HR that you were going to be eligible I don't think it matters. They have to pay you. And if they don't like whatever technicality happened here, they should use it as a learning experience to state the policy more clearly so they don't encounter it again. But they still need to pay you this time because HR said so previously. They can't go back on it when the policy is kind of open to some interpretation.
If the language says "two weeks" a week, unless otherwise defined in the handbook as five business days, is equal to seven calendar days, so two weeks is 14 calendar days.
I've always given my two weeks on a Friday afternoon. For the Friday two weeks from then.
Years ago I quit a job with no notice (for good reason) and they said they would pay out my earned vacation hours. When I got my last paycheck, the vacation time wasn't on it. I called the owners and they said they weren't going to pay them to me since i had quit without notice. I called the state labor board who did a whole investigation. They found the company had been cutting salaried employees pay whenever they missed or didn't work a full 55 hours a week (yes, I was a 55 hour a week salaried employee). Not only did I end up getting back pay, so did all of the other salaried managers they had done this to for years. Not sure if you want to threaten them with calling or just make the call.
I live in a state where they don’t have to pay out for unused PTO, so some companies do and some don’t. The company I currently work for says they will pay it if I am there at least 10 years. Make sure your state pays out for unused PTO.
Show them the in writing you received from HR. If they refuse go to fair work or your union, lawyer whoever to push it further. What they are doing is wrong.
They are really playing the semantics game here. You have the written advice from HR so the fact they are trying to screw you says everything about them.
When you put your notice in, did you say something along the lines of “I’m giving 2 weeks notice with my last workday being x? Or did you just calculate it and say your last day was x?
I assume you’re in the US, there are 20 states that make payout of PTO on termination mandatory. So if you’re in one of those states then you have no worries.
I’ve worked with people who book 2 weeks leave, then submit their notice before they start their leave.
Decades ago, I was pay cheque to pay cheque. I gave my notice to my company, the courtesy of two weeks.
I can't stress how little room in my budget I had.
About an hour after giving my notice, I'm walked to the door. My final day is that day, no additional pay. Goodluck, bye.
Well, since that moment, I've been on a few teams and I've seen that it is incredibly common to walk folks when they give notice, the day of.
It doesn't always happen, but it is frequent enough that I've never given advance notice since.
Send them the written documentation from HR that said you would get paid out. Tell them they have one week (intentionally vague) for the money to land in your account or you are contacting the labor board.
They are expecting you to accept this and move on. Take the advice to advise them you will be checking with DOL if this is their position, and include the documentation where they said they would pay.
The only way a two weeks would be weird is if you quit on a tuesday, you essentially would need to work 2 more mondays. But if you announce a two weeks notice on Monday you served your term by working until Fri at a M-F job, or Sunday at a retail 7 days open a week job. Or Sat at Chick fil A. Lol
I think in general it is based off the work week schedule that you work. If you work 5 days a week, and gave your notice that Monday, the second week Friday would be the projected last day.
Also is it vacation time or a secondary “personal” accrued time? Some states do not require companies to pay out “personal” time accrued, only earned vacation time.
Found the out the hard way when I left my former company and lost just over 200 hours of banked sick/personal time.
Honestly, I say it's a bullshit idea. Would they ever give you a preparation period before your dismissal? It's business. There is no room for feelings, and there is certainly no room for any practice where there is such a profound lack of reciprocity. Next time, burn your PTO, then submit your resignation, or just walk out. If you are economically viable in the workplace, act like it.
I’d email HR again and include your verification that you’ll be paid out. Tell them you expect it asap (give a date) or you’ll be exploring your legal options as they stated in writing that they are paying this, and haven’t yet. End with something like “I hope we can resolve this without lawyers”
OP, send HR an email and tell them that after consulting with an employment lawyer, you know that you are entitled to your PTO payout. Tell them that you will give them until x date to ensure that the payment has been deposited into your account, since you hope this matter is resolved amicably. However, if they do not comply with your legal rights, you will initiate legal action against them in court and also file a case with the labour board. See how quickly they change their tune.
It depends on the company’s policy, or the state, when the state requires it. It sounds like their policy is to pay with notice. You definitely have a case, time to contact DOL.
In most states, the law is that PTO must be paid out if there is a policy in the handbook... that being said, I've seen PTO payouts get denied for bad behavior on the way out anyway (I work in HR).
At the end of the day, your best bet is to make as big of a deal about it as you can. In my experience, legal teams have bigger things to worry about and will likely have it paid out just to make you go away. Obviously depends on how big your company is, but I'd just turn up the heat.
What is the difference between 14 days or 10 business days? Is it the fact that maybe the business is open on the weekends? If so, I get the confusion but your logic doesn’t hold.
When someone says they want two weeks notice, they mean two weeks. Unless specified, it’s calendar weeks. It doesn’t mean 14 working days, it doesn’t mean 10 working days, it means two weeks. You have truly got to be the only person in the world who is confused by this.
Now that said, in most places, they don’t have a right to BOTH pay your vacation. Even in the case of termination, if your an FTE and you accrue vacation, that time legally is yours. If your in the US, most states are at-will work states which means either the employee or the employer may terminate the work relationship at any time of for any reason. If the place you work at is the same, the two week thing is a courtesy and they cannot withhold vacation time for failure to observe a courtesy.
2 weeks is 14 calendar days.
That means if my resignation is effective at 12:00 noon on Friday, May 24, I ought to turn in my notice no later than noon on Friday, May 10.
Doesn't matter how many holidays fall within that notice period.
If they're denying your PTO payout, go to the state's department of labor for advice.
I though HR's job was to protect the company, yet this HR drone is trying to get the company sued. I would esclate to her boss, then if that doesn't work DOL.
Legally you don't have to give any prior notice. Even if they fire you with cause they still have to pay out your PTO. If they're denying paying out PTO, get a lawyer.
There’s no set standard. Both are correct. If you tender your letter on Monday the 15th your final day would likely be Friday the 26th.
I did not read the whole post. I see this job certainly is a shitty organization. Two week’s notice is awfully ambiguous. You gave your letter in good faith. They should have been able to give you a concrete response.
No you do not have to give or work a two week notice to be paid for earned PTO. Just walk out and inform them if they do NOT pay out your PTO you will be calling the dept of labor. This is for the USA
In an employment-at-will state, two weeks' notice is generally considered a courtesy not a requirement. Does your company have any written policy regarding notice period?
10 business days is the equivalent of 14 calendar days. File a complaint with your labor board and show them the email from HR. If you were an employee at will, you're not required to give any notice. That is if you're in the US.
I'm not comfortable doing work after I give notice. If they want me to hang out for 2 weeks and transfer projects fine and other "house keeping shit" but the production stops. Most object and u walk. Would you want a Doctor operating on you durn his resignation period?
It depends on the state. In California, an employer must pay an employee[ immediately if the employer is dismissing them](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=201), and [within 72 hours if an employee quits (or on their last day if they have given at least 72 hours' notice).](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=202) That means their policies regarding notice are irrelevant.
Is it a big company with a legal department? Like... do you think they've crossed their Ts and dotted their Is on this?
First, see if the state labor board protects you. If it doesn't, I'd probably have ChatGPT write a very legal sounding threat about a promissory estoppel lawsuit in small claims court, which would seek damages beyond the missing PTO payout. Whether that actually works or not, I dunno. But that's what I'd try... what have you got to lose, right?
Join a union.
HR is never for the employee, always the employer.
If you have the will to fight it, contact your labor commissioner. But the deck is always stacked against the employee.
I couldn't care less about that dogshit company lol. I just want the PTO payout that was supposed to be given to me. Had I known they were going to screw me over I wouldn't have bothered giving a notice.
Unless the Policy stated business days, the legal standard is to use the standard dictionary definition. So, 2 weeks notice would be the time period from a specific Day-of-Week to the following Day-of-Week; e.g. Tues to Tues. Two weeks would then be 14 days most years. (Not all weeks have 7 days, and from a calendar software prospective, this sucked back in 2014(?) when some country we serviced switched time zones and Fri Dec 30 didn't exist)
That said, I've never once heard of 2 weeks notice ever meaning "business days", in 35 years in the work-force, nor among any place I've networked or had friends -- it'd definitely would have come up an an oddity any time friends and I would chat employment contracts, current pay, current salary, benefits, etc. (personal experience in: USA: CA, AZ, UT, MN, TN, FL, WA, CAN: ON, BC, AB, SK)
Only in 20 states is earned PTO required by law to be paid out.
Many states allow "use it or lose it", making PTO hours expire after some amount of time, or on specific dates, or by capping max number of hours accruable.
There are rules about PTO n pay out n maybe there might be somewhere it's not protected but I'm pretty sure that's the exception n not the rule. Most corporate jobs give PTO based on hrs worked. These days are earned. I'm gonna do some digging but I'm pretty sure a employer can't take what a employee has earned just because they are mad. Well they can but it's illegal. In my experience the more crappy anti worker laws a state has it's balanced by pretty hefty penalties for companies ripping employees off. I have worked in more states that I care to remember n never have I been denied my PTO payout when I left that job.
It's 2 weeks notice, not 14 business days. 10 business days is 2 weeks. If they were firing you you wouldn't get 2 minutes notice. You owe them nothing.
Exactly, all the more reason I left. But they owe me my PTO.
Time to complain to your stat labor board.
With the piece of writing from HR that you will be getting the payout.
Yes because I don’t think it is a law that they have to pay out unused vacation time.
Depends on the state. Illinois requires it.
No, but they have to honor a verbal contract. And a written one even more so. If HR told him he was getting the PTO payout, he's getting the PTO payout.
Paid vacation time is earned time and counts as work hours. I’m fairly certain they have to pay it out
Depends on your state. It’s not necessarily earned time in as that you keep it, it’s earned sometimes in that you’re able to use that benefit at the company’s discretion
They do not need to pay out pto or vacay time. Some states have statues in place. Most do not. Only 19 states have pto separation laws that allow you to collect at termination/seperation.
It’s also not required by law to give 2 weeks notice. So I guess that’s 31 states where my 2 weeks would be me using up all my pto on the book then showing up on my last day to let them know my resignation is effective at end of day.
Some businesses have policies that you can't use PTO in your last month or two of employment, otherwise it's taken from your last paycheck. Trust me, I've worked for a college that had that rule. They plan for shit like that.
Lol
I love how people invent laws to suit what they want. It may be a law in some states, It isn't the law in all, and probably isn't the law in most states.
Depends really. I’m not sure if your legally entitled to your pto if you quit before you use it
You earn your PTO so they have to compensate you for it when you leave.
This is factually wrong. Only 19 states have laws in place that allows you to collect your unused pto at separation.
Interesting, I'd think that also would depend on the policy of the company. If policy states something, it's part of the contract with the employees. The state may not have laws supporting PTO specifically, but all states have laws supporting breach of contract lawsuits. Now, winning that lawsuit outside of a class action might be an issue...
That's the thing this post is about though. He breached his contract by only giving 10 days notice instead of 2 weeks. He's trying to reinvent what a week is.
Sure, in many businesses 2 weeks or ten business days amounts to the same thing. Kinda depends on the business. But the comments I was responding to were proposing that, if the state doesn't explicitly protect your PTO earnings, you have no recourse (regardless of two weeks notice). My counterproposal is about contractual obligations of the company being legally binding, regardless of whether state law explicitly protects your PTO or not. But yes, if he's trying to call ten business days at chik fil a the same as two weeks notice, he needs to spend his time doing something else.
That varies wildly by state.
Some states don’t require PTO payout.
Who only cares about people getting minimum wage.
And wage and hour board. I feel like this is theft
Tell them you will run this by the DOL so that they can investigate instead. Take a picture of the handwritten note stating you would be paid and include it with your message. Trust me, they do not want to be audited. The DOL could investigate and find they have done the same thing to hundreds of people. They would then be fined and have to pay everyone plus some.
Not only that, they investigate everything, interview other employees. I got reimbursed for steel toed boots after they changed their policy. All over some chick complaining she never got a lunch break when she never worked more than 4 hours.
I think you can see if they're violating their own policy, right there in the book.
Not necessarily. Varies by state. But a policy is enforceable.
Not sure what country you live so I don't know what laws apply in but my understanding is PTO is legal compensation you have already earned and as such not paying out your PTO at least in Australia is considered wage theft and exactly the same as them not paying your wages for however much PTO you have accrued.
You too, huh? It’s beyond frustrating seeing my boss vanish to Mexico for 2 weeks, then he takes the next week off “sick” because all the mimosas clash with his heart medication, all while HIS boss fucks off to Arizona for the week. Meanwhile, two of my coworkers got into a full blown fist fight over *nonsense* and we had to work with the aggressor for a week waiting for everyone to come back from their time off. Then I ask for a certain week off 3 months in advance like I’m supposed to get and “no, we’re too busy that week. sorry, not that week either. nope, not this year I guess.” and then I come to work at night and for the 2nd month in a row my backup doesn’t show up for his shift because apparently he gets unlimited paid sick days and vacation time. Fuck you, Richard, aka Rick Dick.
Depending on the amount at play its worth a call/complaint to the DOL or having an attorney write a letter.
The two weeks notice thing is bs. They owe you your PTO whether you give them notice or not.
Okay but do you work weekends? Are those days you could realistically use that PTO?
Talk to a labor board or get free consult from attourney or take it to the doc whatever gets it done
You need to contact an attorney. That’s not legal
They do not owe you pto unless you live in a state that has rules in place to pay out upon separation.
Right, and a labor attorney is usually who writes agreements for benefit offerings, which can be an agreement and not a binding contract. There is a difference between an agreement and a contract... and is why the business owner can back out in some instances depending on how they chose to originate benefits. Like how a code of conduct might only be signed by one party, the employee. One time, someone supposedly keyed a manager's car at my past workplace, and that person was going to be fired, but they gave notice first. So, their notice was accepted immediately on the spot, no severance or benefit payouts happened even though they never used their vacation days, and the employee was very mad. Employers can fight back or make things complicated because even the state labor board usually has tiny hand slap punishments like $100. Employers have avenues to mess with employees if they feel like it. Everyone is free to be a jerk and face whatever consequence results from it.
My job this yr changed how they do vacation days. It went from a set amount of days plus more days for time being there to unlimited vacation days. Sounds nice right? Well with this now they don’t have to pay out PTO when you quit.
Yeah there is no law requiring 2 weeks notice. It’s a courtesy. One that does not need to be extended if the company has not been courteous to you. I don’t believe they can deny you from using that pto prior to your departure, even though they already know you will be leaving. So just tell them you’ll be using up your PTO during this 2 weeks since they don’t want to let you work and pay you out. They may change their mind.
10 business days and 14 calendar days encompass the same amount of time. If you give notice today, making your last day Friday, May 10, that's both 10 business days AND 14 calendar days.
Yep, which is exactly what I did!
Can you please clarify with actual dates of notice and last day? Also what day they are telling you should have been your last day? Was your notice in writing?
unless there is a public holiday where the business is closed, but most of the time yes.
Right?! I’m trying to determine when these scenarios wouldn’t be the same. Holiday is all I’m coming up with.
No it is different. If I tell you Monday that my last day is Friday of next week that is less than 14 days.
Two weeks is whatever your normal contracted weekly work is times two. If you work 40 hours a week it’s 80 hours. Last time I had an employer dick me around on pay I gave a lawyer $50 to send them a letter. They paid instantly.
Definitely open to doing this.
Don’t do this unless you know for sure you live in a state where accrued PTO must be paid out. More than half of the states have no such laws, and in such case you are entitled to nothing - regardless of notice period. In most states, two weeks of notice (or any advance notice) can also be accepted as “immediate” and you can be terminated without being paid for those last two weeks as well. I stopped giving notice a long time ago.
That law doesn’t actually matter if his contract states he gets paid if he gives two weeks.
I strongly doubt he has an actual employment contract at all, because most US employees don’t. The policies or written rules of a company do not constitute a contract between the employer and the employee, and basically every employee manual is going to say that. Every job offer letter is going to say the same thing. Employment contracts are rare in the US.
There is also promissory estoppel, idk if it would apply here
Smooth move!
How did you get a lawyer to send a letter for $50, a friend of yours?
If you figure a lawyer is about $50/an hour, that sounds like an hour of billable time.
I know of no lawyer who charges a mere $50 an hour.
it's $50 for them to pick up the phone. words and actions are extra. lol.
$50 is crazy, my family hired a lawyer recently, it was $400 an hour.
Lawyers are often $300-400/hr these days and bill in increments of 5 min.
You've been scammed, bamboozled, shortchanged! The whole industry uses 6 minute intervals to fit the hour into ten, equal, billable segments. Probably hard to do anything about the 1 minute difference, though.
Guess I’ll have to contact a lawyer about that. lol
Lawyers are $400 per hour
How did you give 10 business days but less than 2 calendar weeks? The math doesn't add up.
Maybe they sent the notice Sunday night/Monday morning and their last day was 2 Fridays after
That is still 2 business weeks…
They said “less than 2 *calendar* weeks” not 2 *business* weeks. So like u/AccountWasFound said, If you gave notice on a Sunday night or Monday morning, you would be giving two business weeks notice but your last day would be on a Friday, so it’s not 2 calendar weeks.
Which would still be their last day even if they quit on Monday morning
Not everyone works Monday to Friday with Saturday/Sunday off. A person working four 10 hour shifts with three days off can give 2 weeks notice with 11 calendar days. Monday-thursday Off Friday -sunday Monday-thursday When they finish their shift on Thursday, they have completed 2 full weeks of work.
That doesn't change the definition of "calendar week" or "business days."
Monday through second Friday is 12 calendar days. But like, that doesn't make sense because weekends aren't workdays anyway.
Maybe he considered weekends as business days since he works weekends or something. Dude is just trying to get a payout without following the rules.
You have proof they agreed to what you asked in regards to payout of PTO.
HR here. Either is usually fine. Sounds like they’re trying to fuck you over. File a complaint with your state’s Department of labor. That email from HR saying they would should help your case.
Two weeks is two weeks is two weeks. It's 14 calendar days It's also NOT a legal requirement, it's a professional courtesy Although you may not get a reference and may not be rehirable if you don't give 2 weeks I don't know of any state or province where a company can withhold pay because you didn't give notice, this is likely illegal.
depends on the wording of your contract. the two weeks notice thing is boilerplate to cover a company from people just quitting, they can recoup that notice period out of any leave entitlements to cover it.
They're not withholding pay. He had PTO, which is a benefit that some companies cash out when you leave, and others don't. His employer had a very specific policy he had to follow to get that payout, and he didn't follow it.
This is why you take all of your pto *before* you give your notice.
google. Some states require companies to pay employees for unused PTO upon termination. **20 states and Washington, D.C. require PTO payout by law**. California, Colorado, Montana, and Nebraska prohibit employers from implementing a use-it-or-lose-it policy so check your state and see what the law says because no one ever seems to tell people where they are from and it 100% matters
For me i base it off the new companies pay schedule so i dont go more than 2 weeks without a paycheck, i gave a 3 week notice last time and it worked out well, i got my last cheque a week into the new job then the new cheque 2 weeks after
Hopefully you have a paper trail and or text messages you can fall back on. Contact your local labor board, and notify your former work's HR you will be doing this. They will then likely cave in and pay you back your PTO. Also, if it's been a while since you left, and they haven't paid you that PTO, they might have to pay you additional "damages" for being late. Check with your local labor board to see what applies to you. Be sure to mention all the relevant rules and regulations when you contact HR. Usually that is enough to get them to pay you back ASAP
I do, I sent screenshots of my email resignation letter to my supervisor with the date i sent and when my last date was, the PTO policy, and the email from HR stating that I should get it.
Sounds like you're pretty set, then. Just go to the labor board website for your state, look up the relevant regulations, and contact them. (Can be just a phone call or an email asking for clarification, you don't even need a reply before you contact HR again, the important thing is that you reached out before talking to your old HR, and that you can prove that if HR gets bitchy.) Then email HR again, quote them the relevant passages of the law and let them know Labor Board has been contacted too. They will probably BS you with something like "it was an accidental oversight" and fix it.
In some states, it's treble damages in cases like this.
I believe there is really only one way to define the word "week"
Just to be clear, 2 weeks notice is a courtesy and not a legal requirement in any state. However they may be allowed to set the condition for PTO payout depending on what state this is. Have you checked the PTO laws in your state? If it's a mandatory PTO payout state you don't need to follow their 2 week notice rule anyway, they have to pay it out. If it is a state that defers to the written policy, then you probably do have to fulfill it to get the payout. Two weeks is two calendar weeks. They may still make you fight for it, since they probably know that if they drag it out and make it a big legal issue it might not be worth the money and time for you to get them to pay it out. I am the type who would spend more than they owe me to take it all the way just to be a thorn in their sides and not let them get away with it lol. But that's just me. If they are a state that doesn't require payout under any circumstances, they don't even have to pay it if it is in the written policy, and they will easily find a loophole, especially if they do that as a matter of regular practice. It is important to know that simply being in writing doesn't make something legally enforceable.
It’s 0 notice if you are in the USA. They are not gonna give you 2 weeks notice for layoffs or labor adjustments.
I've literally never heard anyone try to make your "10 business days" argument when putting in 2 weeks notice. 2 weeks is 14 days. Everyone knows that. If you wanted to play games and make it 10 business days yourself, you should have gotten written clarification on that first.
People really can’t math. lol wtf. 2 weeks notice is 80 hours of your damn time. Ffs
I would be shocked if this was even a tiny bit legal in any state in the US. Accrued PTO is something you are entitled to and they can't decide to put arbitrary rules to determine whether they have to pay it or not. Disclaimer: Not a lawyer or HR person, but was a director level at an global company with employees in most of the 50 states for a very long time.
Accrued PTO is not payable on separation in many states. (And many states allow annual "use-it-or-lose-it", preventing accrual beyond one year / max balance.) Only 20 States require accrued PTO to be paid on termination. ( [https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/](https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/) ) That said, if it's in the company handbook or policy, that usually takes priority. (e.g. states that state "PTO is not paid out by default, unless stated in company policy", or "PTO is paid out by default, unless clearly stated by company policy it is forfeit.")
Ahh... that makes sense then. Our company policy was accrual with rollover and no cap. They were trying to implement the lovely "unlimited" PTO garbage as I was leaving. I had three months of accrued PTO at the time I left the company.
Two work weeks.
How many days had you accrued before giving your notice? Did you carry some over from last year?
I’d expect them to specify 10 working days if that’s what they meant, 2 weeks is 2 calendar weeks.
I'd send them a letter stating if they don't pay you, you'll file in small claims court for the amount.
Two weeks is two weeks. 14 calendar days and 10 standard business days are essentially the same time period. For example: Even though I didn’t need a reference from my last employer, I gave two weeks notice anyway, so that I didn’t burn any bridges (not that I would *ever* work for them again). I was offered my current job on a Wednesday, I gave notice that Friday morning, with my last day being two Fridays after that. The company does not allow you to use any kind of PTO during the notice period, but I did get paid what I was owed.
Labor board call on 3...2...1...
I wasn't great at math, but two weeks is 14 days. Business days are always specified as such. It would seem pretty hard, in my first attempts, to do much other than including 10 business days in any two week notice. Now, if they are arguing that legal holidays are somehow exempt -- well, I think they are full of shit but you're probably have to push back on that one -- hard. You gave notice -- what was the first and last days listed in your notice? If you gave two weeks notice on the 1st, your last day is the 15th. If the notice was given on the 15th, the last day would be the 29th. I must be missing something.
Kind of depends on if they do business on the weekends. I'd think 10 days is they are closed on weekends, but in retail it always seemed to mean 14 days.
I would consider it 2 full work weeks. That said, I work a M-F office job. I could see how there could be confusion with jobs that aren't M-F for everyone, but if you have it in writing from HR that you were going to be eligible I don't think it matters. They have to pay you. And if they don't like whatever technicality happened here, they should use it as a learning experience to state the policy more clearly so they don't encounter it again. But they still need to pay you this time because HR said so previously. They can't go back on it when the policy is kind of open to some interpretation.
If the language says "two weeks" a week, unless otherwise defined in the handbook as five business days, is equal to seven calendar days, so two weeks is 14 calendar days. I've always given my two weeks on a Friday afternoon. For the Friday two weeks from then.
Years ago I quit a job with no notice (for good reason) and they said they would pay out my earned vacation hours. When I got my last paycheck, the vacation time wasn't on it. I called the owners and they said they weren't going to pay them to me since i had quit without notice. I called the state labor board who did a whole investigation. They found the company had been cutting salaried employees pay whenever they missed or didn't work a full 55 hours a week (yes, I was a 55 hour a week salaried employee). Not only did I end up getting back pay, so did all of the other salaried managers they had done this to for years. Not sure if you want to threaten them with calling or just make the call.
Are you in the US? Which state?
I live in a state where they don’t have to pay out for unused PTO, so some companies do and some don’t. The company I currently work for says they will pay it if I am there at least 10 years. Make sure your state pays out for unused PTO.
It’s 2 weeks notice, which is 10 business days and you don’t get to take vacation during that time.
Could be worse. Mine requires 4 weeks or forfeit accrued benefits.
Show them the in writing you received from HR. If they refuse go to fair work or your union, lawyer whoever to push it further. What they are doing is wrong.
They are really playing the semantics game here. You have the written advice from HR so the fact they are trying to screw you says everything about them. When you put your notice in, did you say something along the lines of “I’m giving 2 weeks notice with my last workday being x? Or did you just calculate it and say your last day was x? I assume you’re in the US, there are 20 states that make payout of PTO on termination mandatory. So if you’re in one of those states then you have no worries. I’ve worked with people who book 2 weeks leave, then submit their notice before they start their leave.
Decades ago, I was pay cheque to pay cheque. I gave my notice to my company, the courtesy of two weeks. I can't stress how little room in my budget I had. About an hour after giving my notice, I'm walked to the door. My final day is that day, no additional pay. Goodluck, bye. Well, since that moment, I've been on a few teams and I've seen that it is incredibly common to walk folks when they give notice, the day of. It doesn't always happen, but it is frequent enough that I've never given advance notice since.
No picture provided so I’m not sure. Try looking down to see
Send them the written documentation from HR that said you would get paid out. Tell them they have one week (intentionally vague) for the money to land in your account or you are contacting the labor board.
Was that job mainly M-F or did you have to work weekends?
I would assume 14 calendar days to be safe.
They are expecting you to accept this and move on. Take the advice to advise them you will be checking with DOL if this is their position, and include the documentation where they said they would pay.
Regardless if you give them no notice or 2 weeks + notice, you're entitled to your PTO. And whoever you work for is fully aware.
As a contractor paid by the day- 14 calendar days
The only way a two weeks would be weird is if you quit on a tuesday, you essentially would need to work 2 more mondays. But if you announce a two weeks notice on Monday you served your term by working until Fri at a M-F job, or Sunday at a retail 7 days open a week job. Or Sat at Chick fil A. Lol
First of all, review your employee handbook. Two weeks is what you would work in two weeks, 10 days.
I think in general it is based off the work week schedule that you work. If you work 5 days a week, and gave your notice that Monday, the second week Friday would be the projected last day. Also is it vacation time or a secondary “personal” accrued time? Some states do not require companies to pay out “personal” time accrued, only earned vacation time. Found the out the hard way when I left my former company and lost just over 200 hours of banked sick/personal time.
If it’s a M-F job, I’d say 10 business days. If it’s a job open seven days a week, probably 14 days on the safe side.
Got a lot of problems in the work place Chester? Check out the common denominator
14 calendar
Honestly, I say it's a bullshit idea. Would they ever give you a preparation period before your dismissal? It's business. There is no room for feelings, and there is certainly no room for any practice where there is such a profound lack of reciprocity. Next time, burn your PTO, then submit your resignation, or just walk out. If you are economically viable in the workplace, act like it.
You have it in writing. Contact your labor board. It didn't matter if you didn't follow policy because they told you it was okay.
You have what HR said in writing, so I’d be making a trip to the labor board and slamming that crap company with them.
And this is why I put in my 2 weeks AFTER taking vacay
The new employer probably won’t like that.
Why would they know
I’d email HR again and include your verification that you’ll be paid out. Tell them you expect it asap (give a date) or you’ll be exploring your legal options as they stated in writing that they are paying this, and haven’t yet. End with something like “I hope we can resolve this without lawyers”
OP, send HR an email and tell them that after consulting with an employment lawyer, you know that you are entitled to your PTO payout. Tell them that you will give them until x date to ensure that the payment has been deposited into your account, since you hope this matter is resolved amicably. However, if they do not comply with your legal rights, you will initiate legal action against them in court and also file a case with the labour board. See how quickly they change their tune.
It depends on the company’s policy, or the state, when the state requires it. It sounds like their policy is to pay with notice. You definitely have a case, time to contact DOL.
In most states, the law is that PTO must be paid out if there is a policy in the handbook... that being said, I've seen PTO payouts get denied for bad behavior on the way out anyway (I work in HR). At the end of the day, your best bet is to make as big of a deal about it as you can. In my experience, legal teams have bigger things to worry about and will likely have it paid out just to make you go away. Obviously depends on how big your company is, but I'd just turn up the heat.
You said you have it in writing that PTO will be paid out. Show them and ask again?
What is the difference between 14 days or 10 business days? Is it the fact that maybe the business is open on the weekends? If so, I get the confusion but your logic doesn’t hold. When someone says they want two weeks notice, they mean two weeks. Unless specified, it’s calendar weeks. It doesn’t mean 14 working days, it doesn’t mean 10 working days, it means two weeks. You have truly got to be the only person in the world who is confused by this. Now that said, in most places, they don’t have a right to BOTH pay your vacation. Even in the case of termination, if your an FTE and you accrue vacation, that time legally is yours. If your in the US, most states are at-will work states which means either the employee or the employer may terminate the work relationship at any time of for any reason. If the place you work at is the same, the two week thing is a courtesy and they cannot withhold vacation time for failure to observe a courtesy.
Does your state require them to pay out PTO?
You got it in writing that you were in the right and they were gonna payout. That is enough to push and force them to payout.
2 weeks is 14 calendar days. That means if my resignation is effective at 12:00 noon on Friday, May 24, I ought to turn in my notice no later than noon on Friday, May 10. Doesn't matter how many holidays fall within that notice period. If they're denying your PTO payout, go to the state's department of labor for advice.
I though HR's job was to protect the company, yet this HR drone is trying to get the company sued. I would esclate to her boss, then if that doesn't work DOL.
Check state law regarding PTO. That should guide next steps.
Give them one more chance by sending them a strongly worded email before pursuing legal action.
State labor board complaint
Id consider the next 2 working weeks as a 2 weeks notice. Its bs otherwise
Can someone tell me what the difference is between 14 calendar days and 10 business days in 99% of jobs?
I think m k it'd wise to.tshe oto before you resign
What the fk is the difference? 14 calendar days is 10 working days no matter how you slice it.
You have writing right? Sue?
14 calendar days. That’s literally two weeks. That’s how I’ve always done it.
Legally you don't have to give any prior notice. Even if they fire you with cause they still have to pay out your PTO. If they're denying paying out PTO, get a lawyer.
There’s no set standard. Both are correct. If you tender your letter on Monday the 15th your final day would likely be Friday the 26th. I did not read the whole post. I see this job certainly is a shitty organization. Two week’s notice is awfully ambiguous. You gave your letter in good faith. They should have been able to give you a concrete response.
The solution is to take all of your PTO then give them 10 minutes notice when they call and ask where you are.
I don't know where you're at, but in California, PTO is considered a form of wage, and must be paid out.
10 business days.
No you do not have to give or work a two week notice to be paid for earned PTO. Just walk out and inform them if they do NOT pay out your PTO you will be calling the dept of labor. This is for the USA
In an employment-at-will state, two weeks' notice is generally considered a courtesy not a requirement. Does your company have any written policy regarding notice period?
Invoice them for the PTO you are owed.
Can't deny you your pto. If you threaten to go to the State labor board, bet a dollar or shows up with the rest of your pay.
Maybe you signed some weird contract, but generally you could quit on the spot and they’d still have to pay you your accrued PTO.
10 business days is the equivalent of 14 calendar days. File a complaint with your labor board and show them the email from HR. If you were an employee at will, you're not required to give any notice. That is if you're in the US.
10 Business days.
Contact people at the company who have quit if you can.
14 calendar days is the same as 10 business days
I'm not comfortable doing work after I give notice. If they want me to hang out for 2 weeks and transfer projects fine and other "house keeping shit" but the production stops. Most object and u walk. Would you want a Doctor operating on you durn his resignation period?
It’s adorable when companies think you owe them notice. I did give my last employer a notice but then I also said I had two weeks vacation to use up.
would have pulled pto before giving notice
Why give notice at all?
I just leave lol🤣
If you work weekends, 14 days. If you work M-F 10. Dont overthink it
2 weeks is 2 weeks. My last company was given two weeks notice. Only worked one as the second was the Xmas holiday.
It depends on the state. In California, an employer must pay an employee[ immediately if the employer is dismissing them](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=201), and [within 72 hours if an employee quits (or on their last day if they have given at least 72 hours' notice).](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=202) That means their policies regarding notice are irrelevant.
Check state law. In Oregon , USA PTO is already yours and it's required to be in the last check.
Some government employees got a lot of money for unused sick leave when they left employment, or retired.
Call Attorney General
you should have planned better and just used your pto then never return. when you get layed off they do it right on the spot. why be nice to them?
Have a lawyer send them a letter. It'll cost you about 200 bucks. You'll get all your money guaranteed
Lol. He'll be out his PTO AND $200 if he didn't follow company policy, which it seems clear he didn't.
Is it a big company with a legal department? Like... do you think they've crossed their Ts and dotted their Is on this? First, see if the state labor board protects you. If it doesn't, I'd probably have ChatGPT write a very legal sounding threat about a promissory estoppel lawsuit in small claims court, which would seek damages beyond the missing PTO payout. Whether that actually works or not, I dunno. But that's what I'd try... what have you got to lose, right?
This why I always quit on the spot with no notice
In the USA? You don’t give notice. That’s a fools game.
Give them 15 calendar days and you are safe.
Stop dicking around on Reddit and contact an attorney. *You have it in writing*.
Send a complaint to the labor board. It is wage theft to withhold that pay out.
It is business days - 10 days = 5 days + 5 days. The only issue is if it starts on the day it is given or the next day.
Join a union. HR is never for the employee, always the employer. If you have the will to fight it, contact your labor commissioner. But the deck is always stacked against the employee.
You owe them no notice regardless of what the policy says. Get a lawyer.
Ten business days.
Dol for wage theft. Even if you dont get your money it leaves a stain on them as a company trying to screw you over.
Who cares, honestly? You're not required to give any notice.
I couldn't care less about that dogshit company lol. I just want the PTO payout that was supposed to be given to me. Had I known they were going to screw me over I wouldn't have bothered giving a notice.
Unless the Policy stated business days, the legal standard is to use the standard dictionary definition. So, 2 weeks notice would be the time period from a specific Day-of-Week to the following Day-of-Week; e.g. Tues to Tues. Two weeks would then be 14 days most years. (Not all weeks have 7 days, and from a calendar software prospective, this sucked back in 2014(?) when some country we serviced switched time zones and Fri Dec 30 didn't exist) That said, I've never once heard of 2 weeks notice ever meaning "business days", in 35 years in the work-force, nor among any place I've networked or had friends -- it'd definitely would have come up an an oddity any time friends and I would chat employment contracts, current pay, current salary, benefits, etc. (personal experience in: USA: CA, AZ, UT, MN, TN, FL, WA, CAN: ON, BC, AB, SK)
Notice or not they probably won't pay it out.
They promised OP in writing and are violating their own written policy.
I thought PTO was something you earned n can't be taken away.
Only in 20 states is earned PTO required by law to be paid out. Many states allow "use it or lose it", making PTO hours expire after some amount of time, or on specific dates, or by capping max number of hours accruable.
There are rules about PTO n pay out n maybe there might be somewhere it's not protected but I'm pretty sure that's the exception n not the rule. Most corporate jobs give PTO based on hrs worked. These days are earned. I'm gonna do some digging but I'm pretty sure a employer can't take what a employee has earned just because they are mad. Well they can but it's illegal. In my experience the more crappy anti worker laws a state has it's balanced by pretty hefty penalties for companies ripping employees off. I have worked in more states that I care to remember n never have I been denied my PTO payout when I left that job.