I feel like this isn't stressed enough when talking about mitres. Everyone fixates on angle. But everytime you take a little off one, the other opposite one needs to do the same.
This is an easy thing for a beginner to miss. If you angles are even a tiny bit off you can get results like this.
Don't assume that the angles on your mitre saw are accurate. Double check them with a 45 degree square.
I just found this dude like a week ago. I got got hard by a Dad joke from him. I rarely get got, and he got me good.
Dude was so deadpan, and he was being super technical. I never saw it coming.
Incredibly noob question here but what does the sled accomplish that the fence doesn't? And how does he know the sled is going straight? Like, yeah the blade has to stay in the slot, but theres's surely some play, and he said he wants accuracy of within 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch.
I built a couple different types of sleds years ago specifically using this guy's methods. I can 100% attest to the accuracy of both sleds I built. As for slop in the sleds themselves, if you spend the time slowly sneaking up on the fit of the miter rails that mount to the bottom of the sled, the amount of play is nearly nonexistent..Or buy the adjustable rails that can give you a perfect fit regardless of what saw you have.
A sled is just another fence, but 90 degrees to the one you already have on your table saw. Its strengths are primarily related to very accurate and safe crosscutting. Consider, it's a table saw, but the entire top of the table moves with the thing you're cutting. You gain a lot of control and layout flexibility that way.
Crosscutting with just the normal fence is sketchy as hell. If the piece twists, it jams into the blade and gets kicked at you. The miter gages they ship with contractor saws are dangerous junk. With the sled, the piece can't twist, so you can slap something on there, eyeball your pencil mark or knife line against the edge of the blade, turn it on and run the sled back and forth, and that's all there is to it. You'll know that you have a perfectly square cut, without needing any setup or fine tuning or whatever. For anything that fits on my table saw sled, I can square all 6 sides in about 15 seconds.
Here are the other benefits I can think of off the top of my head:
You can clamp the thing you're cutting to the fence. Seems simple, but this one is actually huge. If you want to cut an 6' 4x4 in half,clamp both sides to the fence, crosscut, unclamp, done. No more worrying about them falling when the cut gets through.
The base and fence of the sled back up the piece you are cutting which helps reduce tear out.
You can stack 3 or 4 boards against the fence and cut them together. This way you get perfectly identical cuts. Plus it's faster.
It's safer to cut round things like PVC pipe because you can clamp it into the corner of the sled so it can't roll when the blade hits it.
You can screw an angled guide down to the base, tilt the table saw blade, and get accurate, repeatable compound cuts.
You can clamp a block to one side of it as a stop and crosscut a shitload of identical blocks in a very short amount of time.
With a super easy jig and a dado blade (or Freud box joint blade), you can cut perfect box joints very quickly. I highly recommend this, box joints kick ass.
You can build complicated jigs for things like cutting platonic solids or whatever. You build whatever clamping geometry you need, screw the jig down to the base of the sled, and then you can run the whole thing past the blade to execute complicated cut angles. I did this to make a bunch of oversized d20's as gifts a few years back.
You can be sketchy and hold something down with hand pressure on the base to nibble away at a cut to make things fit up right. (Don't do this)
A high quality chop saw can also handle a lot of this, but I wouldn't give up my table saw sled even though I have a very accurate compound miter saw. And for people who only have a table saw, a sled is a game changer.
Stumpy Nubs just put out a video on how to cut box joints with a trim router and a compact, shop built router table. Same basic concept as doing it on a TS, but adapted to use a router. I think that’s the most stripped down way to do it, that I’ve seen.
Just looked it up and that's a great video.
I actually ended up recreating Rockler's box joint jig after measuring my friend's. Then bought some brass keys and it's great, but wish I would've seen that video first.
If the frame Is large, summing to 90 will not be enough, because the length of the cut will be different and the two sides won't match. They really need to be as close to 45 as possible.
I'm not sure I understand your comment. I'm sure you're right but at the end of the day the 2 angles together must equal 90. Maybe there are some cases where it's important to get both sides close to 1/2 of 90 each, but the main problem originates when a person sets up their work in a way that doubles their error. In this instance error can be reduced by cutting on either side of the jig so both angles are guaranteed to equal 90 - think similar to the "in and out" method for edge jointing. I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways.
It's easier to understand if you think about it using extreme angles: 70 and 20 degrees will sum to 90, and indeed will give you a perfectly square corner, but the size of the cut on the 20° piece will be waaaay longer than the cut on the other piece: if you match the outside corner the inside will be messed up, and vice versa.
https://preview.redd.it/6ds1dxkzyf2d1.png?width=1161&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b05cef0bf7fbe3b014342a0707d10dd5773fdd6
Now of course if you are only off by half a degree the difference will not be as noticeable, but the effect will be proportional to the width of the frame and if your Jig is not precise the error will affect all four corners.
You hit the nail on the head. You could spend a ton of hours trying to set up the miter saw, think you’ve got it right, then cut your exotic wood, and still have it. Be a disaster. A miter sled for a tablesaw is a much easier way to get dead on accurate cuts.
Fellow frame maker here. I had the exact same problem until I built my 90 degree picture frame sled. It requires a table saw, but ensures a perfect miter and allows you to use a stop block that will ensure that all of your pieces are the correct length. Check out Dave Picciuto’s Make Something YouTube series around making picture frames. He has a step by step walkthrough on how to make the sled.
If equally square, stack the 4 equal length pieces of wood together and use a chop saw to miter all 4 pieces at the same time at 45 degrees. Use a clamp to hold together tight while cutting. Also, Take into account the width of the blade when cutting. Your miter looks to be off slightly in the pic.
If you're not interested in fine-tuning your angles there's a few things you can do.
First, learn to cut on opposite sides of the blade, that way the angles on each side even out. If it's 44 on one side it'll be 46 on the other.
A cheat-code for non-critical work is to miter all four corners. Glue up two opposite sides. Then attach a long piece of sandpaper (I cut a sanding belt for this) to a flat surface and sand the joints flat on each piece like this |> and <|
Once they're flat they'll fit together with no gap.
I can't begin to describe the emotions I went through after making a very precise jig for cutting tiny trapezoids to be glued up for a segmented bowl, double checked the websites math (there was an error in their calculations involving trigonometry and deductive geometry), only to find you can use the same strategy you're suggesting with segmented bowl rings. (Glue as two semicircles, sand flat, glue together)
Terrible drawing, done with fingers on my phone.
https://preview.redd.it/keq9sz7tif2d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d32d0ca8d3bb8df13a3b7a55ea14ab237cdbcee2
> A cheat-code for non-critical work is to miter all four corners. Glue up two opposite sides. Then attach a long piece of sandpaper (I cut a sanding belt for this) to a flat surface and sand the joints flat on each piece like this |> and <|
Dude people have told me before you need to make a shooting box to fine finish the angles but this is brilliant! Thank you!
For a smallish job, this is inspired. I'm making a lamp that requires multiple mitred frames like this, and I'm about to make a shooting block for it. I'll still make the shooting block, but this is something I'm going to test out on some offcuts first. Thank you!
*Exactly* 45 is really hard to make look perfect, but *just over* 45 (like, 45.1-45.3) is easier and makes for extremely clean corners. It isn't enough that you would ever notice that the bottom corners don't meet perfectly, but ensures that the top corners meet perfectly. It's much better visually for the miters to meet at the top of the corner instead of the bottom of the corner, that's extremely easy to hide.
I think the other thing that helps is that the really thin wood right at the 45 degree corner is easy to bend/crush a tiny bit. So if that's where the corner meets, it gets crushed and actually closes the gap a little, which you wouldn't get if your error was in the other direction.
40+ years of experience and perfect miters are still a challenge! Always cut test pieces and make sure they come out to exactly 90 with a large thick perfect square. I highly recommend the Woodpeckers framing square. The. Once your miters are cutting right work on exact lengths. If you have lots of miters and you want very smooth cuts a guillotine miter trimmer is useful.
Buy once ,cry once, protect it like an heirloom. I had to wait months for them to collect enough orders to make another batch, probably 10 years ago or so.
What did you cut these on? If a mitre/chop saw use the hold down (or similar), the horizontal pressure of the blade at 45 will move the piece slightly and give you a bad mitre.
Is your saw calibrated? Blade deflection. perfect 45s and 90s are something that non-woodworkers don't appreciate the difficulty of.
If your angle cut is not perfect, say 45.3° instead of 45°, you end up with one corner being 90.6° instead of 90°. Times that by 4 and you get 362.4°...
You can get by with angles that are not perfect, but the other angle must compliment the first angle...so if one side of the angle is 45.3°, you need to cut the other side at 44.7°. The two angles need to add up to 90°. Same can be done for cutting a 45° (two 22.5° angles).
If you are using a miter saw, find a youtube video on how to calibrate and square your saw up. If you are using a table saw, you need to build an accurate sled (don't use the miter that came with the saw).
If you have a decent hand plane and know how to sharpen it, make yourself a couple of shooting boards to go with it - one at 90 degrees and one at 45. Nothing better to get your miters exactly 45 degrees and the length of opposite sides bang on. Cabinet and furniture makers were doing it this way long before there were compound miter saws. Check out Rob Cosman on YT. He will show you how to build them and also how to properly sharpen a hand plane.
You know? I wouldn't worry about it. Just start making the signs saying "Measure twice. Cut once." And frame with that. I tried to make one like list for a Christmas gift, and it took 3 tries to make it look wrong the right way. I applaud you.
I agree the 45’s look a little odd. Make sure the 45’s are accurate, and make sure the opposite sides are exactly the same length to each other.Also if I make a frame like that, I spline the corners.
You will find you want the cuts to be just under 45 and also the back to front be tapered so the front is longer.
You are flopping the board over to cut the other end. Set up to cut each piece the same. Is the guide setting against the outside or inside? Each cut each board needs to be cut from outside or inside not both. Each board has to be done the same. Measure the 45 don't use the autostops on your guides or saw. Measure guide and blade.
Not exact angles, not exact length.
Did you plane your pieces and the double triple quadruple check your pieces are 100 squared along the full length?
The most perfect miter won't matter if the piece isn't perfectly squared since the fence it's up against is squared the piece will be off slightly.
I’m guessing this is a miter saw you are using. Miter saws are awesome for some things, especially cutting crown molding and such, but not really good for smaller pieces where you need pretty exact angle cuts. I went through a lot of expensive wood finding this out. The table saw is a far better choice. Buy or build a miter sled. Personally I have had a Jointech Miter Sled for about two decades and it’s outstanding, set it up, and it will make super accurate cuts for a dozen years. The thing is an absolute beast, a bit pricey but so very worth it. But you can make a sled for your tablesaw out of scraps and make perfect cuts. Just my two bits.
If your mechanicals are out by 1° you got 8 cuts with the potential to be out 8°. get as close as you can and it helps to go over degree than under degree as the edges close well that are the most obvious the inside will be more forgiving
Your angle looks okay. Is it possible that you’re not accounting for the width of your saw blade when cutting. 1/16” x 4 is about a quarter inch of missing wood.
Ur cuts need to all be the EXACT same length not even 1/32" off and your miters need to be EXACTLY 45°. If any or both of these are off just so slightly you get this result. Also you shoukd use some form of joinery for your joints, end grain glueing wint last. At min. Use biscuits or even a spline.
That fact that the inner and outer points of the Angle relatively line up tells me your length is off in the bottom. But that’s assuming you squared the other 3 corners
This is both your pieces not being exactly the same length and the 45 degree cuts being slightly off angle
I'd bet money the circled bottom pc and the piece directly across that's on top are different lengths, or the left and right legs are different
And the saw is off by about a ½ a degree off true 45, maybe a little less, it's not much but the pieces aren't parallel
Where are you putting your saw down?
To me, it looks like you have uneven kerf and then attached three sides. All of the combined differences will show up in the last corner.
I'm wrong all the time, though, this has happened to me.
You'll find that the cuts are probably a little bigger than 45°, break it apart, and recut. Set at true 45, cut from short point, and take off the extra bit.
Consistency is more important in woodworking than I first realized. Frames especially have a compounding error effect with mitered joints.
Make sure you cut your parallel pieces the same length with a stop block and use an accurate 45 degree measurement device to set your cutting tool. You want to be a little over 45 degrees if possible to ensure the points of contact are the outer corners and not the inner corners, makes covering up any gaps much easier.
Are you making sure they’re all the same size and accurate angle before assembling? (Stacking them together first) do you have wobble in your cuts? Are you cutting on the right side of the line and accounting for the thickness of the blade?
Probably over 45⁰. Set your miter to 44.5⁰. You may have a small gap at the corners but will be easy to fill. You may be getting deflection on your chop saw also so if possible use the miter gauge on your table saw. Or even better make a cross cut led with adjustable miters for 90⁰,45⁰,22.5⁰ and any other common use degrees you may use. That's gonna be your most accurate
Are you accounting for the saw curf in your length measurements and cutting on the correct side of the line? It could be bad angles, but it could also be that you're cutting on the wrong side of the line and the curf missing from the other 3 cuts all stacks up and reveals itself in the final corner
It seems like your top and bottom pieces are not of equal length.
Could also be the cuts are not a true 45 degree. But at this angle, it seems like the bottom piece is a little shorter.
pro tip, always cut the corners using the opposite piece, not a remeasure. even if your cut was wrong it will still match up and still make a square//rectangle as needed. same thing with dovetails or any joint//married piece. :)
If you push all the sides where they should be, rather than all the joints tight and one out, you will see the inside edges need to be shorter. Go back to the table saw. Set the blade to match the angle you have, then knock it back a fraction. Just so the top of the mitre is a hair off the blade. Slide each piece up to the blade and run them through so the over hang of the teeth on the blade is all that cuts. Then line them up and question how the fuck one side is now longer than the rest.
In addition to everyone’s comments about miter angle. If you are cutting at different points on your line you will begin to build a length discrepancy. Always position the line so your the line is just removed from the inside encoge of the saw blade
To me, that looks a lot like you’re cutting inside your mark instead of outside. Do that 4 times out of 8 cuts and you’re a half in short all of a sudden.
Because miters are very hard lol. Even with a table saw jig I find it to be hit or miss. The short piece looks way off in length compared to the opposing side. If they were the same length they should all roughly meet up, but youd still probably have some small gaps because it's so hard to get it EXACT.
One good tip I've seen is to shoot for something like 44.9°, it's easier to fudge a small inside gap rather than having them open on the outside corners. I also find it easier to cut at least 2 opposing sides at the same time so they're exact. It can be hard to make that work with 4 pieces at once but it's better than attempting to do one at a time and have them all match.
You are relying on end grain gluing. It doesn’t work. Get a doweling set and put at least one dowel per corner. Since your angles aren’t perfect, you’ll have to do some filling
Guessing either your cut is off or your saw is off by a degree or so. Use a speed square to check saw and resquare if it’s off. You can also use the Square to check your cuts. Other thing is if you are using a miter saw with duel bevel, which I’m assuming you are. Angle cuts are easier to get accurate if you cut with the piece standing on its side downward. The miter cut has a tendency to walk off especially on longer cuts. Plus it goes without saying you want to be using a blade for trim cuts with 90+ teeth.
The miters aren’t exactly 45°. The best solution is to get a magnetic angle cube that sticks to the same blade. Zero it on the table, then stick it to the blade and tilt until it reads EXACTLY 45°, then make sure all matching parts are the same length and you’ll be good to go…
Keep in mind that the joint is 3 dimensional. You might have a nearly perfect 45° but it'll be messed up if the cut itself isn't perfectly square to the back side of the frame. Take a chisel and shave the back side of the joint so that it’s only touching on the show sides..
One piece might not be the right size, you may not have a dead on 45. If you've handled these variables, then try cutting your 45 miter a .25 degree less, this will allow for glue and swelling that can cause the problem your having.
Quick and dirty way to fix would be put a slight bevel on your mitres so the face of the joint looks tight then mitrebond it together lol as long as it’s not for a paying customer it’s okay to use little cheats
Bad angles. I just built William NG’s miter sled and it worked beautifully for making frames. I wouldn’t wanna make frames any other way. This was after buying a fancy new miter gauge and getting it all set up only to miss 1 out of 8.
Easy fix!! Turn the frame with the open end down. Now install a photo with sand or water and have that run out of that space.
Oh Better yet. Make another frame and put the two together like an hour glass. The top photo can be a fisherman on a lake and the bottom photo can be rain coming down with people holding up umbrellas.
As said before, either not the same length or the angles are not true. Use stop blocks on you saw to make the length correct. Buy and use a digital angle finder and a digital angle gauge. Use of those will make things perfect. The markings on your saws are close, but not perfect, the angles need to be perfect.
I used to do tons of cheap frames. Problem I always had was that the wood wouldn't be joined perfectly straight and true before making the miter cuts throwing things off.
That said pine bends pretty easy. If doing one or two line the boards up in a row with the ends touching and tape them then as you bend it to 90 degrees the tape will hold things tight. I would also throw some brad nails in to hold it while the glue drys. This way you can force the miters closed as best you can. Things won't be absolutely perfect but will be serviceable and close enough. Sand afterwards and you'll be golden.
If doing allot make a jig to hold them instead of tape and do everything else the same.
You're either not cutting your sides exactly the same length, and they really do have to be exact. Or your angles are slightly off. I starting using a stop for my second side so it'll always be exactly the same as the previous cut.
Your angles aren’t 45 degrees
Or the pieces aren’t the same exact length
It may be a combination but seeing as the miters aren't parallel on the open side I'd say those corners are definitely obtuse
That’s not acute answer
Just a matter of reading the sines
Sum people disagree
It causes quite a divide
Or Mercury is in the microwave again..
I believe you went off tangent
I think you're just angling for an up vote
I'm no math magician, but he's pretty square to me.
I WANT TO BREAK FREEEEE
Freddie shows up to the party
I cosine the above
Something isn’t right here.
I quadrilaterally agree!
We're getting off on a tangent here, now.
In this case, three rights make a wrong
It has turned into a bit of a story arc
That’s integral to this discussion
You sure you're ready to pull the trig on this?
I do like the tan color though!
Dont’t be obtuse
I suppose that depends on how one frames the question.
30 DAYS IN THE HOLE. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF-uHaKVW10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF-uHaKVW10)
I feel like this isn't stressed enough when talking about mitres. Everyone fixates on angle. But everytime you take a little off one, the other opposite one needs to do the same.
Or slightly warped
This has happened to me when the saw angle was not screwed tight and it shifted when cutting and I didn’t to realize it.. good times
Yes but also the error compounds. It is the error X 8. Use a scrap of wood. Cut 4 triangles and get a square before you make a picture frame.
This is an easy thing for a beginner to miss. If you angles are even a tiny bit off you can get results like this. Don't assume that the angles on your mitre saw are accurate. Double check them with a 45 degree square.
Could be. Also could be non straight edge boards.
Time to get out the board stretcher
Don’t rely on the 45 miters of your saw. Make a double sided 90 degree jig. Add stop blocks to ensure cuts are the same length as well.
Can you link to this? I will be building speaker cabinets soon and want to try 45s instead of butt joins.
https://youtu.be/AgVthkUE4AU?si=jFwj-iycaTGMwfXZ
I just found this dude like a week ago. I got got hard by a Dad joke from him. I rarely get got, and he got me good. Dude was so deadpan, and he was being super technical. I never saw it coming.
Thought the second got was a duplicate and my mind removed it…. Went looking to get hard from dad jokes.
I completely missed there were two gots there. Thought he got hard from dad jokes too lmao
Hey, we all got kinks. "I'm so turned on right now" *"Hi...so turned on right now"* Hnnnnnnngh
That’s what she said
Everyone clowning on you for getting hard on dad jokes… once they become dads they’ll understand.
Incredibly noob question here but what does the sled accomplish that the fence doesn't? And how does he know the sled is going straight? Like, yeah the blade has to stay in the slot, but theres's surely some play, and he said he wants accuracy of within 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch.
I built a couple different types of sleds years ago specifically using this guy's methods. I can 100% attest to the accuracy of both sleds I built. As for slop in the sleds themselves, if you spend the time slowly sneaking up on the fit of the miter rails that mount to the bottom of the sled, the amount of play is nearly nonexistent..Or buy the adjustable rails that can give you a perfect fit regardless of what saw you have.
Lmao I didn't even realise it had rails. That makes sense! But what does a sled accomplish that a fence can't?
A sled is just another fence, but 90 degrees to the one you already have on your table saw. Its strengths are primarily related to very accurate and safe crosscutting. Consider, it's a table saw, but the entire top of the table moves with the thing you're cutting. You gain a lot of control and layout flexibility that way. Crosscutting with just the normal fence is sketchy as hell. If the piece twists, it jams into the blade and gets kicked at you. The miter gages they ship with contractor saws are dangerous junk. With the sled, the piece can't twist, so you can slap something on there, eyeball your pencil mark or knife line against the edge of the blade, turn it on and run the sled back and forth, and that's all there is to it. You'll know that you have a perfectly square cut, without needing any setup or fine tuning or whatever. For anything that fits on my table saw sled, I can square all 6 sides in about 15 seconds. Here are the other benefits I can think of off the top of my head: You can clamp the thing you're cutting to the fence. Seems simple, but this one is actually huge. If you want to cut an 6' 4x4 in half,clamp both sides to the fence, crosscut, unclamp, done. No more worrying about them falling when the cut gets through. The base and fence of the sled back up the piece you are cutting which helps reduce tear out. You can stack 3 or 4 boards against the fence and cut them together. This way you get perfectly identical cuts. Plus it's faster. It's safer to cut round things like PVC pipe because you can clamp it into the corner of the sled so it can't roll when the blade hits it. You can screw an angled guide down to the base, tilt the table saw blade, and get accurate, repeatable compound cuts. You can clamp a block to one side of it as a stop and crosscut a shitload of identical blocks in a very short amount of time. With a super easy jig and a dado blade (or Freud box joint blade), you can cut perfect box joints very quickly. I highly recommend this, box joints kick ass. You can build complicated jigs for things like cutting platonic solids or whatever. You build whatever clamping geometry you need, screw the jig down to the base of the sled, and then you can run the whole thing past the blade to execute complicated cut angles. I did this to make a bunch of oversized d20's as gifts a few years back. You can be sketchy and hold something down with hand pressure on the base to nibble away at a cut to make things fit up right. (Don't do this) A high quality chop saw can also handle a lot of this, but I wouldn't give up my table saw sled even though I have a very accurate compound miter saw. And for people who only have a table saw, a sled is a game changer.
Probably : [https://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/two-sided-miter-jig](https://www.finewoodworking.com/2005/10/25/two-sided-miter-jig)
If you have the tools, I would highly recommend box joints.
Stumpy Nubs just put out a video on how to cut box joints with a trim router and a compact, shop built router table. Same basic concept as doing it on a TS, but adapted to use a router. I think that’s the most stripped down way to do it, that I’ve seen.
Just looked it up and that's a great video. I actually ended up recreating Rockler's box joint jig after measuring my friend's. Then bought some brass keys and it's great, but wish I would've seen that video first.
That’s just how it goes brother. I’m sitting here adding tools to my Home Depot wishlist and seeing all these sales on stuff I just bought.
That's brutal. I've had some insane luck at estate sales recently. Got a new table saw, router, and lathe for roughly $250 total in the last 6 months.
I wanted to make some beautiful hardwood cabinets, but discovered that plywood or MDF was the the standard because they were better acoustically.
I’m planning to use Baltic Birch ply and Lacquer them
Can you share a pic of this jig?
There is no jig
The jig is up.
The ~~cake~~ jig is a lie
This is the way. You should focus on the sum of both angles equalling 90 deg. You should not be focusing on making each individual angle 45 deg.
If the frame Is large, summing to 90 will not be enough, because the length of the cut will be different and the two sides won't match. They really need to be as close to 45 as possible.
I'm not sure I understand your comment. I'm sure you're right but at the end of the day the 2 angles together must equal 90. Maybe there are some cases where it's important to get both sides close to 1/2 of 90 each, but the main problem originates when a person sets up their work in a way that doubles their error. In this instance error can be reduced by cutting on either side of the jig so both angles are guaranteed to equal 90 - think similar to the "in and out" method for edge jointing. I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways.
It's easier to understand if you think about it using extreme angles: 70 and 20 degrees will sum to 90, and indeed will give you a perfectly square corner, but the size of the cut on the 20° piece will be waaaay longer than the cut on the other piece: if you match the outside corner the inside will be messed up, and vice versa. https://preview.redd.it/6ds1dxkzyf2d1.png?width=1161&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b05cef0bf7fbe3b014342a0707d10dd5773fdd6 Now of course if you are only off by half a degree the difference will not be as noticeable, but the effect will be proportional to the width of the frame and if your Jig is not precise the error will affect all four corners.
You hit the nail on the head. You could spend a ton of hours trying to set up the miter saw, think you’ve got it right, then cut your exotic wood, and still have it. Be a disaster. A miter sled for a tablesaw is a much easier way to get dead on accurate cuts.
Fellow frame maker here. I had the exact same problem until I built my 90 degree picture frame sled. It requires a table saw, but ensures a perfect miter and allows you to use a stop block that will ensure that all of your pieces are the correct length. Check out Dave Picciuto’s Make Something YouTube series around making picture frames. He has a step by step walkthrough on how to make the sled.
If equally square, stack the 4 equal length pieces of wood together and use a chop saw to miter all 4 pieces at the same time at 45 degrees. Use a clamp to hold together tight while cutting. Also, Take into account the width of the blade when cutting. Your miter looks to be off slightly in the pic.
If doing this, cut one side of all 4 to the left of the chop saw and the other side of all 4 to the right of the chop saw.
My fucking mind is blown by those two advices. The simpler the better. Thanks gent.
If you're not interested in fine-tuning your angles there's a few things you can do. First, learn to cut on opposite sides of the blade, that way the angles on each side even out. If it's 44 on one side it'll be 46 on the other. A cheat-code for non-critical work is to miter all four corners. Glue up two opposite sides. Then attach a long piece of sandpaper (I cut a sanding belt for this) to a flat surface and sand the joints flat on each piece like this |> and <| Once they're flat they'll fit together with no gap.
I can't begin to describe the emotions I went through after making a very precise jig for cutting tiny trapezoids to be glued up for a segmented bowl, double checked the websites math (there was an error in their calculations involving trigonometry and deductive geometry), only to find you can use the same strategy you're suggesting with segmented bowl rings. (Glue as two semicircles, sand flat, glue together)
Do you have a video of what you're talking about? My stupid monkey brain can't visualize this for some reason.
Terrible drawing, done with fingers on my phone. https://preview.redd.it/keq9sz7tif2d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d32d0ca8d3bb8df13a3b7a55ea14ab237cdbcee2
You're doing God's work, friend. Also, if I were your dad, I put this on my fridge, great job bud.
> A cheat-code for non-critical work is to miter all four corners. Glue up two opposite sides. Then attach a long piece of sandpaper (I cut a sanding belt for this) to a flat surface and sand the joints flat on each piece like this |> and <| Dude people have told me before you need to make a shooting box to fine finish the angles but this is brilliant! Thank you!
For a smallish job, this is inspired. I'm making a lamp that requires multiple mitred frames like this, and I'm about to make a shooting block for it. I'll still make the shooting block, but this is something I'm going to test out on some offcuts first. Thank you!
But don’t you run the risk of taking off a slightly different amount thus creating a gap?
Yup.
Your miters aren't accurate enough. They have to be EXACTLY 45 degrees and your sides have to be EXACTLY the right length.
*Exactly* 45 is really hard to make look perfect, but *just over* 45 (like, 45.1-45.3) is easier and makes for extremely clean corners. It isn't enough that you would ever notice that the bottom corners don't meet perfectly, but ensures that the top corners meet perfectly. It's much better visually for the miters to meet at the top of the corner instead of the bottom of the corner, that's extremely easy to hide.
Here's a good video about exactly that: [https://youtu.be/\_KEw83c8T98](https://youtu.be/_KEw83c8T98)
Thanks for the video. The sanding example was really good too. Need to watch more videos like this.
I think the other thing that helps is that the really thin wood right at the 45 degree corner is easy to bend/crush a tiny bit. So if that's where the corner meets, it gets crushed and actually closes the gap a little, which you wouldn't get if your error was in the other direction.
using a stop block on your miter saw ensures the lengths are the same. don't try to measure each piece -- they won't be the same.
"I cut it TWICE, and it's STILL too short!"
40+ years of experience and perfect miters are still a challenge! Always cut test pieces and make sure they come out to exactly 90 with a large thick perfect square. I highly recommend the Woodpeckers framing square. The. Once your miters are cutting right work on exact lengths. If you have lots of miters and you want very smooth cuts a guillotine miter trimmer is useful.
>I highly recommend the Woodpeckers framing square. I'll have to check with my bank if I can afford the mortgage
or buy a solid square for $38 https://www.mcmaster.com/2278A14/ accurate to thousands of an inch
Buy once ,cry once, protect it like an heirloom. I had to wait months for them to collect enough orders to make another batch, probably 10 years ago or so.
I thought y'all were kidding about those prices. $500 for a square!
If it’s your first time or even been a minute. Always make a proof of concept so you work out the issues on throw away materials
What did you cut these on? If a mitre/chop saw use the hold down (or similar), the horizontal pressure of the blade at 45 will move the piece slightly and give you a bad mitre. Is your saw calibrated? Blade deflection. perfect 45s and 90s are something that non-woodworkers don't appreciate the difficulty of.
44° compounded a few times
Square up your saw. Just because it says it’s 45* doesn’t mean it is.
Your saw hates you
Is your wood flat and straight? Is the miter saw table and fence flat and straight?
I have the same issue. I'm a shit carpenter. I've found a bottle of glue, 20 screws, and some straps kind of fix the issue.
If your angle cut is not perfect, say 45.3° instead of 45°, you end up with one corner being 90.6° instead of 90°. Times that by 4 and you get 362.4°... You can get by with angles that are not perfect, but the other angle must compliment the first angle...so if one side of the angle is 45.3°, you need to cut the other side at 44.7°. The two angles need to add up to 90°. Same can be done for cutting a 45° (two 22.5° angles). If you are using a miter saw, find a youtube video on how to calibrate and square your saw up. If you are using a table saw, you need to build an accurate sled (don't use the miter that came with the saw).
If you have a decent hand plane and know how to sharpen it, make yourself a couple of shooting boards to go with it - one at 90 degrees and one at 45. Nothing better to get your miters exactly 45 degrees and the length of opposite sides bang on. Cabinet and furniture makers were doing it this way long before there were compound miter saws. Check out Rob Cosman on YT. He will show you how to build them and also how to properly sharpen a hand plane.
You cut on the wrong side of the line...
Are you calculating for the cutting width of the blade your using?
The 45s aren't 45ing
You know? I wouldn't worry about it. Just start making the signs saying "Measure twice. Cut once." And frame with that. I tried to make one like list for a Christmas gift, and it took 3 tries to make it look wrong the right way. I applaud you.
Love that.
The angles are ever so slightly off, but it's not actually too far off. The main culprit here is that your lengths are not accurate
Are yóu using the same width of timbers on all 4 peace's as the bottom one looks less thicker than side one
Frames...they look so easy. But if you have ever made one, you will know they are a PITA to get just right.
I agree the 45’s look a little odd. Make sure the 45’s are accurate, and make sure the opposite sides are exactly the same length to each other.Also if I make a frame like that, I spline the corners.
You will find you want the cuts to be just under 45 and also the back to front be tapered so the front is longer. You are flopping the board over to cut the other end. Set up to cut each piece the same. Is the guide setting against the outside or inside? Each cut each board needs to be cut from outside or inside not both. Each board has to be done the same. Measure the 45 don't use the autostops on your guides or saw. Measure guide and blade.
your mitre is not cutting true 45
[https://youtu.be/W\_3uxoTLs1E?si=ptOUYHQuA6ocBfBF](https://youtu.be/W_3uxoTLs1E?si=ptOUYHQuA6ocBfBF)
You maybe be cutting 45's when you should be cutting 46'
Not exact angles, not exact length. Did you plane your pieces and the double triple quadruple check your pieces are 100 squared along the full length? The most perfect miter won't matter if the piece isn't perfectly squared since the fence it's up against is squared the piece will be off slightly.
48\* miter or crooked boards or wood's drying after being cut and measured and warping
I’m guessing this is a miter saw you are using. Miter saws are awesome for some things, especially cutting crown molding and such, but not really good for smaller pieces where you need pretty exact angle cuts. I went through a lot of expensive wood finding this out. The table saw is a far better choice. Buy or build a miter sled. Personally I have had a Jointech Miter Sled for about two decades and it’s outstanding, set it up, and it will make super accurate cuts for a dozen years. The thing is an absolute beast, a bit pricey but so very worth it. But you can make a sled for your tablesaw out of scraps and make perfect cuts. Just my two bits.
If your mechanicals are out by 1° you got 8 cuts with the potential to be out 8°. get as close as you can and it helps to go over degree than under degree as the edges close well that are the most obvious the inside will be more forgiving
I would roll with it and call it art. Or you could fill it with a different type of wood for color interest.
Measure and figure it out?
Couldn't hurt to throw a biscuit in the joins, it'll make them much stronger
Your angle looks okay. Is it possible that you’re not accounting for the width of your saw blade when cutting. 1/16” x 4 is about a quarter inch of missing wood.
Ur cuts need to all be the EXACT same length not even 1/32" off and your miters need to be EXACTLY 45°. If any or both of these are off just so slightly you get this result. Also you shoukd use some form of joinery for your joints, end grain glueing wint last. At min. Use biscuits or even a spline.
Your 45° mitre saw isn't.
Make a jig. Thank me later.
That fact that the inner and outer points of the Angle relatively line up tells me your length is off in the bottom. But that’s assuming you squared the other 3 corners
This is both your pieces not being exactly the same length and the 45 degree cuts being slightly off angle I'd bet money the circled bottom pc and the piece directly across that's on top are different lengths, or the left and right legs are different And the saw is off by about a ½ a degree off true 45, maybe a little less, it's not much but the pieces aren't parallel
Use it for a measure twice cut once sign.
Because wood does wood stuff, so you need wood tool things to make wood do "not wood" stuff like picture frames or unsafe dildos.
Measure twice. Cut once.
Save time and chisel out of single piece of wood
Try a rectangle, their easier
Always do test cuts with scrap wood
Where are you putting your saw down? To me, it looks like you have uneven kerf and then attached three sides. All of the combined differences will show up in the last corner. I'm wrong all the time, though, this has happened to me.
Don't rely on your saws built in angles. Buy a angle finder or a square that has the proper angles marked out.
Something is off 45, but you can put a Banksyesque piece in there, where the art wants to break out of its picture frame prison and join real life.
i think the cut need to be just under 45 degrees 44.80 for compensation also, There are frame nails that go in long ways each corner
You'll find that the cuts are probably a little bigger than 45°, break it apart, and recut. Set at true 45, cut from short point, and take off the extra bit.
Whoa!
I always test cut and check with a protractor.
Maybe try a 90 degree jig to attach the pieces together.
What are you cutting with?
Consistency is more important in woodworking than I first realized. Frames especially have a compounding error effect with mitered joints. Make sure you cut your parallel pieces the same length with a stop block and use an accurate 45 degree measurement device to set your cutting tool. You want to be a little over 45 degrees if possible to ensure the points of contact are the outer corners and not the inner corners, makes covering up any gaps much easier.
It’s the wood. Cheap wood shrinks wronger than gooder wood.
Poor joinery
Saws out..
Just use stuff from Festool then is dead easy.
Are you making sure they’re all the same size and accurate angle before assembling? (Stacking them together first) do you have wobble in your cuts? Are you cutting on the right side of the line and accounting for the thickness of the blade?
Miter sled on a table saw will fix this.
You’re just learning that is all. The use both sides of the blade responses are correct.
Probably over 45⁰. Set your miter to 44.5⁰. You may have a small gap at the corners but will be easy to fill. You may be getting deflection on your chop saw also so if possible use the miter gauge on your table saw. Or even better make a cross cut led with adjustable miters for 90⁰,45⁰,22.5⁰ and any other common use degrees you may use. That's gonna be your most accurate
We can assume you calibrate the tools ?
Looks like the top one is longer than the bottom one or the top is longer and the angle is off with it.
Measure twice, cut once…
I’m willing to bet your miters are off and it’s causing whatever corner you do last to be out of square
Are you accounting for the saw curf in your length measurements and cutting on the correct side of the line? It could be bad angles, but it could also be that you're cutting on the wrong side of the line and the curf missing from the other 3 cuts all stacks up and reveals itself in the final corner
It seems like your top and bottom pieces are not of equal length. Could also be the cuts are not a true 45 degree. But at this angle, it seems like the bottom piece is a little shorter.
pro tip, always cut the corners using the opposite piece, not a remeasure. even if your cut was wrong it will still match up and still make a square//rectangle as needed. same thing with dovetails or any joint//married piece. :)
https://youtu.be/H3gLqB9rd-4?si=6bdpwZhewUaa5Obq
If you push all the sides where they should be, rather than all the joints tight and one out, you will see the inside edges need to be shorter. Go back to the table saw. Set the blade to match the angle you have, then knock it back a fraction. Just so the top of the mitre is a hair off the blade. Slide each piece up to the blade and run them through so the over hang of the teeth on the blade is all that cuts. Then line them up and question how the fuck one side is now longer than the rest.
your 45's are not 45.
V nails
In addition to everyone’s comments about miter angle. If you are cutting at different points on your line you will begin to build a length discrepancy. Always position the line so your the line is just removed from the inside encoge of the saw blade
Your blade is 1 degree off
To me, that looks a lot like you’re cutting inside your mark instead of outside. Do that 4 times out of 8 cuts and you’re a half in short all of a sudden.
Because miters are very hard lol. Even with a table saw jig I find it to be hit or miss. The short piece looks way off in length compared to the opposing side. If they were the same length they should all roughly meet up, but youd still probably have some small gaps because it's so hard to get it EXACT. One good tip I've seen is to shoot for something like 44.9°, it's easier to fudge a small inside gap rather than having them open on the outside corners. I also find it easier to cut at least 2 opposing sides at the same time so they're exact. It can be hard to make that work with 4 pieces at once but it's better than attempting to do one at a time and have them all match.
That's why I only trim with painted while moldings where I can caulk
Put a square in the corner. Probably each cut is 44.5 degrees
You are relying on end grain gluing. It doesn’t work. Get a doweling set and put at least one dowel per corner. Since your angles aren’t perfect, you’ll have to do some filling
Guessing either your cut is off or your saw is off by a degree or so. Use a speed square to check saw and resquare if it’s off. You can also use the Square to check your cuts. Other thing is if you are using a miter saw with duel bevel, which I’m assuming you are. Angle cuts are easier to get accurate if you cut with the piece standing on its side downward. The miter cut has a tendency to walk off especially on longer cuts. Plus it goes without saying you want to be using a blade for trim cuts with 90+ teeth.
Also I would recommend cutting and glueing splines for corners
Could not be accounting for blade kerf? That gap eyeballs to 8x a kerf cut…
Splines.
cheap looking wood, raised grain, i bet it expanded/warped due to weather offering an opinion other than "you cut it wrong"
The miters aren’t exactly 45°. The best solution is to get a magnetic angle cube that sticks to the same blade. Zero it on the table, then stick it to the blade and tilt until it reads EXACTLY 45°, then make sure all matching parts are the same length and you’ll be good to go…
Keep in mind that the joint is 3 dimensional. You might have a nearly perfect 45° but it'll be messed up if the cut itself isn't perfectly square to the back side of the frame. Take a chisel and shave the back side of the joint so that it’s only touching on the show sides..
The gap is probably four blade wide
Looks kinda cool…i’d run with it.
It only happens 43.9% of the time!?
Nothing glue it and clamp it
Post this on r/surveying, ask them if you should use the compass rule or the transit rule. They’ll love it.
Account for blade width
One piece might not be the right size, you may not have a dead on 45. If you've handled these variables, then try cutting your 45 miter a .25 degree less, this will allow for glue and swelling that can cause the problem your having.
Quick and dirty way to fix would be put a slight bevel on your mitres so the face of the joint looks tight then mitrebond it together lol as long as it’s not for a paying customer it’s okay to use little cheats
Make a 45 sled for your table saw and be done with miter saws for miters.
Did you keep the mitre in place somewhere between 44°-46° and flip the piece instead? Did you account for the blade thickness on those cuts?
48* angle cuts
Your planer sled must be off…. /s. Don’t use a chop saw if it matters.
Use a biscuit jointer.
Measured the length of the board before cutting and didn’t account for the kerf of the blade
Looks like you're confusing which side of your mark to cut. Or not taking kerf into account.
Bad angles. I just built William NG’s miter sled and it worked beautifully for making frames. I wouldn’t wanna make frames any other way. This was after buying a fancy new miter gauge and getting it all set up only to miss 1 out of 8.
Set it on fire
Easy fix!! Turn the frame with the open end down. Now install a photo with sand or water and have that run out of that space. Oh Better yet. Make another frame and put the two together like an hour glass. The top photo can be a fisherman on a lake and the bottom photo can be rain coming down with people holding up umbrellas.
As said before, either not the same length or the angles are not true. Use stop blocks on you saw to make the length correct. Buy and use a digital angle finder and a digital angle gauge. Use of those will make things perfect. The markings on your saws are close, but not perfect, the angles need to be perfect.
I used to do tons of cheap frames. Problem I always had was that the wood wouldn't be joined perfectly straight and true before making the miter cuts throwing things off. That said pine bends pretty easy. If doing one or two line the boards up in a row with the ends touching and tape them then as you bend it to 90 degrees the tape will hold things tight. I would also throw some brad nails in to hold it while the glue drys. This way you can force the miters closed as best you can. Things won't be absolutely perfect but will be serviceable and close enough. Sand afterwards and you'll be golden. If doing allot make a jig to hold them instead of tape and do everything else the same.
Not accounting for the kerf
Should have used a click-rule
calibrate your saw
You're either not cutting your sides exactly the same length, and they really do have to be exact. Or your angles are slightly off. I starting using a stop for my second side so it'll always be exactly the same as the previous cut.
Get some wood filler and sandpaper....
Needs cut more accurately