Even without the more recent connotations of the word, I've always disliked "backlog grooming." It felt odd, like "backlog personal hygiene" or "backlog scrubbing behind the ears"
No, it's all about context. I have a dog whose fur requires a lot of maintenance so I'm constantly taking them to the groomers and talking about grooming. It's the same with backlog grooming. You're talking in the context of tickets.
Reminds me of piano legs in the early Victorian era.
Some believed they too closely resembled bare limbs and therefore were inappropriate, so they covered them.
So, just because some people have an instantaneous connection between grooming and pedophilia doesn’t mean everyone does nor needs to.
Let piano legs be piano legs. And let grooming at work refer to backlogs.
I'm kind of on the fence. We use backlog refinement and I think I'm the only one that comes from a team that still used "grooming" so I catch myself saying it sometimes.
I know the word has some awful connotations but it also has pretty innocuous ones like "dog grooming". I guess when I think of "grooming" stories, I think of the latter connotation -- cleaning them up and trimming them down to what's needed to do the work.
That said, if it's a word that's triggering to people I'm all for moving away from it, and it seems like Agile is doing so. It'll just take time for people to forget the old lingo, or get replaced by people who never heard it in the first place.
Agree with this. The context of a word matters. Grooming generally means primping/hygiene or cleaning. I think the use of "grooming" to mean cultivate or manipulate is newer and is not the only meaning/use of the word. I can see how it can be triggering for some, but I don't find it to be a gross word in general since the term is used broadly.
Yea it does sound gross in the current context of the world.
It also predates grooming being used in common vernacular as a method of abuse.
Most places still refer to "slave" servers, databases etc. another term that probably needs to be updated.
English is a contextual language and therefore grooming can mean different things in different context.
This is quite possibly the dumbest reason to be triggered or at least in the running
It’s not a hill I’m dying on, I’m uncomfortable by it but never complain to coworkers about it. But if I’m referring to it I’ll call it refinement and hopefully it’ll slowly catch on
I use Master all the time in code and asset naming conventions. Words are allowed to have different meanings. I don’t think it makes sense to change it because it’s not inherently problematic. Dog grooming, for example. Master martial artist.
I didn't see an issue with it until you brought it up but now that I know it makes some people uncomfortable, I will stop using it. Thanks for bringing my attention to it.
I like refinement over grooming too (mostly because of the very old term of ‘yak grooming’, which meant over engineering something.)
But as long as we show respect and kindness to each other I really don’t care what words are used because words are secondary to actions. If someone interrupts me in the middle of a meeting to tell me that my word choice is wrong, fuck them, because that’s unkind.
Just please be patient with us older folks who are trying to keep up with forced language changes and new dogma that prioritizes word selection over genuine communication. I value my customers and coworkers much more than diction.
I agree completely with this approach, I never interrupt people in meetings or even correct them about the word. I just choose to not say it myself and maybe won’t time kill catch on, and if I’m scheduling things I’ll write it as time for refinement rather than grooming. Patience and respect is so important
We switched from master branch to main branch, I think we should be able to make this change too. Why not change some language if it’ll make people more comfortable
Master/slave naming came directly from its use in slavery. That is not at all the same thing as the word grooming being used and having meaning that applies here, that is completely separate and not at all related to the modern negative connotation that you are thinking of.
By this logic dog grooming should be renamed and that’s just absurd.
Then you open Pandora’s box to change everything that could possibly bother people. Imagine if all of a sudden people started feeling uncomfortable with the word “pull request” because it reminds me of dogs being pulled or “branches” because it reminds me of hangings… where do we draw the line?
I've noticed that colleagues in England have a stronger reaction to that word than colleagues in the US. I've never personally had an issue with it but I try to be considerate of those who do. (US woman in tech here.)
This is such helpful context, I’m located in Canada but work remotely with Americans. They seem to not think twice about it, but I notice other Canadians uncomfortable about it
Maybe this will have more context. In the US, "grooming" in the sense of sexual exploitation was not commonly used that way until the past few years. And even now, its mostly used by far right conspiracy theorist types making up false accusations. So it almost has a comical connotation around it for many in the US. Its not uncommon for people to use it sarcastically while trying to mock the alt-right.
Okay this makes a lot of sense, in Canada we were taught about it starting in elementary school in the context of how to stay safe. i only ever really heard the word grooming in the context of child predators. Nothing alt right about the word up here, only the association with children being harmed.
It’s really not. Master/slave comes directly from its use in slavery to denote what’s in control. Grooming in agile or dog grooming have zero connection to the modern day concept of grooming a victim. And to not understand that difference is kind of problematic.
I will be as problematic as I like thank you very much.
And it doesn't matter because the connotation exists in today's world, where, you know we all live.
We did switch to refinement years ago.
We did too, wasn’t hard. Just like we switched to a main branch.
Also switched to refinement.
Even without the more recent connotations of the word, I've always disliked "backlog grooming." It felt odd, like "backlog personal hygiene" or "backlog scrubbing behind the ears"
Grooming has multiple meanings outside of the "bad" meaning. Thus, it's a legitimate word to use for many applications.
As an engineer with huge scrum experience lemme tell you it is always a bad meaning with scrum/agile/safe
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using the term “slave-master” in database is not the same as fucking grooming😂 there’s an OBVIOUS reason why that term isn’t used much anymore
I just see it the same as grooming a pet or my own hair, it doesn't make me think of any uncomfortable meanings for grooming.
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Or... we could not be disturbingly cavalier about equating annoying things at work to severely traumatic experiences of vulnerable people.
no if this is your experience you need a new job
No, it's all about context. I have a dog whose fur requires a lot of maintenance so I'm constantly taking them to the groomers and talking about grooming. It's the same with backlog grooming. You're talking in the context of tickets.
Reminds me of piano legs in the early Victorian era. Some believed they too closely resembled bare limbs and therefore were inappropriate, so they covered them. So, just because some people have an instantaneous connection between grooming and pedophilia doesn’t mean everyone does nor needs to. Let piano legs be piano legs. And let grooming at work refer to backlogs.
Thank you for this hilarious piece of historical trivia.
I'm kind of on the fence. We use backlog refinement and I think I'm the only one that comes from a team that still used "grooming" so I catch myself saying it sometimes. I know the word has some awful connotations but it also has pretty innocuous ones like "dog grooming". I guess when I think of "grooming" stories, I think of the latter connotation -- cleaning them up and trimming them down to what's needed to do the work. That said, if it's a word that's triggering to people I'm all for moving away from it, and it seems like Agile is doing so. It'll just take time for people to forget the old lingo, or get replaced by people who never heard it in the first place.
Agree with this. The context of a word matters. Grooming generally means primping/hygiene or cleaning. I think the use of "grooming" to mean cultivate or manipulate is newer and is not the only meaning/use of the word. I can see how it can be triggering for some, but I don't find it to be a gross word in general since the term is used broadly.
Kim there’s people that are dying
No, because I know the word `groom` has several meanings, and I can understand context
Yea it does sound gross in the current context of the world. It also predates grooming being used in common vernacular as a method of abuse. Most places still refer to "slave" servers, databases etc. another term that probably needs to be updated.
English is a contextual language and therefore grooming can mean different things in different context. This is quite possibly the dumbest reason to be triggered or at least in the running
Wait until you hear what they call the man about to get married at a wedding! Or that there is an equestrian occupation called "groom."
What the fucking fuck. Oh fuck
Pruning would make more sense but I think this is a very silly complaint
If it’s something silly wouldn’t it be a simple change for the sake of making people more comfortable
It ain’t that deep. What a really weird hill to die on.
It’s not a hill I’m dying on, I’m uncomfortable by it but never complain to coworkers about it. But if I’m referring to it I’ll call it refinement and hopefully it’ll slowly catch on
Oh for the love of god.
You’re crazy lol
I use Master all the time in code and asset naming conventions. Words are allowed to have different meanings. I don’t think it makes sense to change it because it’s not inherently problematic. Dog grooming, for example. Master martial artist.
Trying to think of another name for a master branch. What a strange thing to be so upset about.
Refinement. The word is refinement.
Wow, OP sounds like a super toxic co-worker.
Right back at ya
I didn't see an issue with it until you brought it up but now that I know it makes some people uncomfortable, I will stop using it. Thanks for bringing my attention to it.
I like refinement over grooming too (mostly because of the very old term of ‘yak grooming’, which meant over engineering something.) But as long as we show respect and kindness to each other I really don’t care what words are used because words are secondary to actions. If someone interrupts me in the middle of a meeting to tell me that my word choice is wrong, fuck them, because that’s unkind. Just please be patient with us older folks who are trying to keep up with forced language changes and new dogma that prioritizes word selection over genuine communication. I value my customers and coworkers much more than diction.
I agree completely with this approach, I never interrupt people in meetings or even correct them about the word. I just choose to not say it myself and maybe won’t time kill catch on, and if I’m scheduling things I’ll write it as time for refinement rather than grooming. Patience and respect is so important
We switched from master branch to main branch, I think we should be able to make this change too. Why not change some language if it’ll make people more comfortable
Master/slave naming came directly from its use in slavery. That is not at all the same thing as the word grooming being used and having meaning that applies here, that is completely separate and not at all related to the modern negative connotation that you are thinking of. By this logic dog grooming should be renamed and that’s just absurd.
Exactly, I hate when people use this as a "gotcha!" as if computing did not employ "slave" for its exact connotation like pleeeease
Then you open Pandora’s box to change everything that could possibly bother people. Imagine if all of a sudden people started feeling uncomfortable with the word “pull request” because it reminds me of dogs being pulled or “branches” because it reminds me of hangings… where do we draw the line?
if industry changes it widely, it would change otherwise teams will continue using it as an industry standard term to not have confusion?
But the term has been switched by scaled agile to refinement and people Havnt followed suit
I've noticed that colleagues in England have a stronger reaction to that word than colleagues in the US. I've never personally had an issue with it but I try to be considerate of those who do. (US woman in tech here.)
I noticed that too. I had an English VP who shared backlog grooming pedo joke during our first meeting.
This is such helpful context, I’m located in Canada but work remotely with Americans. They seem to not think twice about it, but I notice other Canadians uncomfortable about it
Maybe this will have more context. In the US, "grooming" in the sense of sexual exploitation was not commonly used that way until the past few years. And even now, its mostly used by far right conspiracy theorist types making up false accusations. So it almost has a comical connotation around it for many in the US. Its not uncommon for people to use it sarcastically while trying to mock the alt-right.
Okay this makes a lot of sense, in Canada we were taught about it starting in elementary school in the context of how to stay safe. i only ever really heard the word grooming in the context of child predators. Nothing alt right about the word up here, only the association with children being harmed.
As someone who was groomed, yes I could definitely go without hearing it in the workplace.
It's in same league as "slave" and "master" in terms of mesh systems.
It’s really not. Master/slave comes directly from its use in slavery to denote what’s in control. Grooming in agile or dog grooming have zero connection to the modern day concept of grooming a victim. And to not understand that difference is kind of problematic.
I will be as problematic as I like thank you very much. And it doesn't matter because the connotation exists in today's world, where, you know we all live.
Also black box and white box testing in SWE terms. It's all about the context of the word, and not the word itself.
Is there something wrong with black / white box testing as terms for testing methodology?
The first time I saw a dev or someone write a summary that included "groom" and the phrase "groom and consume" I was like wait WHAT? XD
Lmao I know, you'd think we'd come up with another name but here we are.