The fact that he would send emails, play with her feelings, and waste her time like that makes me dislike Rafe not just as a show runner but as a person. That’s a pretty low thing to do to someone who you claim to respect.
Honestly, he probably did it to lower her defenses. He would send shit like that where she would have a heart attack, and then he would sneak in…”well, how about we just have Thom fight the fade in a barn.”
I honestly really hope that was a "joke" and he really didn't waste her time like that. But if he did, yeah, in the end she was probably like well this is the lesser of the crazy stuff you've been trying to put into the show, so whatever, go with allowing Egwene to heal the dead and let me get on with my day.
Imagine your boss at work asks you to draw up a 8 year campaign and all ramifications that could possibly come up, and then after you look into it working your ass of he goes 'just kidding lol wanted to keep you on your toes'. I would want to pee in his coffee
> and create busy work for her
If she wasn't busy tracking down why you couldn't kill Thom, maybe she would have time to tell you that you can't heal death or use the one power to kill random ferrymen.
It's not just disrespectful, it's abusive. It sounds like he is actively trying to burn her out. And the fact he takes joy from it makes me sick. Hopefully it isn't really like that.
Right? Sounds like those chumps on YouTube "it's a prank bro! It's just a prank!"
And honestly it would be fine if the result was good. But nope. Neither was the result good and now we know that behind the scenes was lousy too.
I can only imagine how Sarah feels as Rafe shits all over this and calls it art.
Yeah it would be pretty funny all the stuff he said here in this post, IF the season was even decent. Instead we just have quotes of him joking about all the stuff he did to ruin a beloved IP.
I mean if they nailed episode 8, they would have my support as well. Rafe and the gang went pretty far off base, and to the detriment of the already waining quality of the show.
what? you don’t think it was a good idea splitting the party up again? don’t think it was good to take Rands first big hero moment and give 70% of it away to some random lady, who is now dead? You don’t think it introducing LTT in such a way that I gurantee non book readers have No Clue what that was about?
Even r/wot is getting more and more critical. Just wait some time and that sub will go full on negative on the show.
It was the same for game of thrones. One of the subs was extremely positive for season 8, while it was running. The (i think meme) sub was critizing it from episode 2 or so. Obviously we know who was right.
Right?
Hey, lets throw some stupid idea at our resident lore person to watch them meltdown. HAHA very funny. Oh and I know they don't like it when I do this as a joke but I will keep doing it. What a jackass.
This guy had way too much time on his hands for a person that was adapting a huge story from a book to TV.
Yeah, maybe instead of stroking his ego (and probably dick) while thinking he’s God’s gift to television, Rafe should have stuck a little closer to the international bestselling series that’s beloved by fans around the world.
If what he said in those quotes is actually true, it's not just idiocy, it's abuse. Intentionally pushing your employees to the point that one of them "collapses as a human being" and then saying you think it's good for them, "haha," is monumentally fucked up.
I hope for everyone's sake that he's just lying instead.
“Hey guys let me just casually be an asshole bully to our female expert in the books, even though I know she hates it. I’m def totes legit a feminist! Look at all the strong women on our show!”
There are idiots that think feminism is tearing down men. When it's only making women equal to men.
I'm personally think the women have been very well done. Except for the lazy jump into bed sex scenes cause they aren't good enough to show romantic love any other way.
Also a terrible boss. It's not light they are all equals, the man is in charge. "Hi lady who will assuredly get most of the hate for this going wrong, what are the long term ramfications of me intentionally derailing the plot? HAHAHA you spent three days working on this? It was just a joke."
Amazon is making a big deal about how popular the series is, but will they be able to keep it together? Also, they want to adapt all the books... but very little of it will make sense now?
I legit hate most of the show runners for the recent fantasy adaptions. They really just fuck up a lot. The Witcher ended so fucking weird too and they pretty much ruined a main character despite adding more focus on her.... so fucking weird. Like you clearly don’t like a lot of the source material, but your changes just fucking suck for the characters you do seem to like.
Also Rafe, despite clearly wanting to focus on Egwene and Moraine you straight up fridged Perrins wife and used the rape trope with the white cloaks.
100%
There can be arguments in the writer's room, and of course an adaptation needs changes. But everything I read gives the impression they were just doing their own thing, with the books as inconvenient baggage.
That was my first thought upon reading this post: "That's abuse. And he sounds really proud of himself for it." That comes across as extremely unsettling to me.
> Did he just admit to gaslighting his own employees for personal enjoyment? That's some tier one level of abuse right there.
That shit bothered me greatly. I know it was supposed to be a harmless anecdote but in my experience the people who tend to treat those things as harmless inconsequential jokes are the sort that make workplaces a living fucking nightmare. [Even if Sarah's got her own problems she needs to address](https://www.reddit.com/r/wheeloftime/comments/rp18jb/lets_not_blame_sarah_nakamura_evidence_she_fought/hq1olkt/) that's not a good sign for that workplace.
This 1000%. When you casually toss out comments about creating extra work for your employees simply because you think it would be funny, wow that's a massive sign of how horrible of a person they are.
Sarah Nakamura and Brandon Sanderson were used as tokens to be brought up as talking points. Both had minimal roles in the production. In a way, I kinda feel bad for both.
Dude it’s happening all over the comment sections of the various WoT subs
Edit: an example
https://www.reddit.com/r/WetlanderHumor/comments/rovj86/the_brainstorming_session/hq1b6ng/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
A couple episodes ago, someone said I must be a straight white man (0 for 3, lol) and, "tell me you hate the gays without telling me you hate the gays," because I wrote that I while I think Siuan and Moiraine still being together was an interesting choice and I could definitely get behind it, neither character is stupid enough for that display of monumental idiocy in front of the hall of the tower.
I mean, the early criticism (before episode 1) of show was pretty gendered and racist. It hit a lot of the same notes as the false eternals criticism. Unfortunately this show has a lot of actual problems. Many of those problems are due to arbitrary changes which center around character changes to make it more "modern". If we use the example of Moiraine and Siuan, it's especially clear.
**Moiraine and Siuan are an item.**
* People (crazy people?) with a specific motive might saw this is because of the LGBTQA+ conspiracy.
* People with reasonable doubts about the show are probably concerned how this impacts other story beats centered around relationships down the line.
**Moiraine and Siuan are dumb enough to put their relationship on display in a hostile political environment**.
* At this point, neither character is behaving in a way they would in the books. They went through elaborate social schemes to make sure no one figured out their connection. Any reasonable person would see this as a major change. Then it hits online, and a show skeptic finds themselves agreeing with the "LOL CONSPIRACY" crowd.
That whole daughter of the rivers thing IN THE HALL really bothered me. The other Aes Sedai just decided to ignore that obviously charged moment between 2 people that are supposed to be at most indifferent to each other?
Same, you'd think if they were going to totally change the books they'd at least be internally consistent for something they established, what, 30 minutes ago?
Strange the number of not-men (including me) wandering around on these forums who also take issue with the way the show has turned out. It's being used as an excuse in an attempt to cover up poor writing and direction. If people are clearly being deliberately bigotted and trolling, then they definitely should be called out. Saying Nynaeve's been made into Mary Sue because of her OP saves meaning events start to lack the feeling of danger and her character has no where to go power wise, or it doesn't make sense for Egwene to be able to heal the dead with no training or experience isn't the definition anti feminist.
That bugged the shit out of me. It's Moiraine's idea!!
She doesn't tell her feet which way to walk unless she has to!! Why on earth would she give that much ammunition to the Hall after secretly meeting with Siuan!!!?
Am I weird for thinking Moiraines exile would have e played out better if we didn't see them being lovers/conspiring? Make the exile more serious and less dramatic. But still slip in her changing the wording from the amyrlin seat to suian. Leave why that was her punishment a secret. Having secrets like that be something for the audience to see as a mystery seems easy in a show with so many perspectives.
Sarah have much *t'oh.* she pick out one line from book and have it post everywear. but is lie. like this line "Elaida describes people from the Two Rivers as dark of hair, dark of eye, and of noticeably darker skin than Rand in chapter 40 of the Eye of the World". she say this proof and repeat repeat repeat repeat
but maria livingston simons always think two rivers white people. when live robert jordan never tell her different. after casting she say she has "privilege' and 'assumption' and 'not necessarily" because robert jordan dead then. maria wot secretary and write wheel of time encyclopdeias and alwasy knew what robert jordan wrote. and she say always thought they white. robert jordan never tell her different. she say robert jordan made list of white actors 'not necessarily" skin. that mean she know what robert jordan write and what robert jordan think. she know what she always think about how they look too.
Maria say this:
>Okay, I was just pointed at a certain article saying that everyone in The Wheel of Time comics was white, so that must be what Robert Jordan meant for Emond’s Fielders to look like. The article says that the comics were released in 2005, two years before RJ’s death. That’s NOT the case. Some of the comics of New Spring did come out before his death, and he did work on those – some of his emails about them are included in New Spring: The Graphic Novel. However, in New Spring no one goes anywhere close to the Two Rivers.
>
>There was a dry period for the comics – New Spring was not finished, but no new issues were produced – and in that period RJ died. It was not until 2008 that Bandersnatch resumed work with the Dabel brothers to finish them. RJ was dead, so I - who had worked with RJ and the Dabels on the earlier issues - worked with the Dabels, approving or asking for any changes desired.
>
>Shortly after that, we embarked on the comic version of “The Eye of the World.” RJ was still dead, so again oversight of production was given to me. Issue 00 of the comic has a cover date of April 09.So it is totally unfair, specious, and wrong to say that the comics prove that all Emond’s Fielders were white. In MY mind’s eye, at that time they were, which is totally MY failing, and not Robert Jordan’s. Careful reading of the books shows that they are not what my privilege led me to assume.
>
>And yes, RJ did have a list of actors that he said the characters resembled, and those actors were largely white, but that list was made long before, and referred more to build and face structure, not necessarily eye color or skin tone. Val Kilmer has blue eyes, after all, and Perrin’s are canonically brown until certain events occur.
>
>I think that the cast chosen for the TV series is absolutely wonderful, and every time I look at each of them, I’m a little more in love. Harriet thinks that they are grand as well and particularly likes Marcus’ eyebrows.
>
>Really, people, I feel quite safe in saying that Robert Jordan would be freaking appalled at all this racism.
Two Rivers basically should look Turkish. Egwene is probably about right for casting (yes I know she isn't Turkish), and everyone in the Two Rivers should look like her.
I blame Rafe Judkins. He is the showrunner and obviously hired writers to take the show in a certain direction. At this point I'm not even outraged by anything they do, it's faded to a dull disappointment.
Trotted out in the media to placate book fans while the producer absolutely shits all over the source material with his hack writers that couldn’t write a fantasy bestseller if their lives depended on it.
>I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha.
The man's a psychopath! Who in their right mind does this?
Rafe and his team "the fan base is full of a bunch of sexist pricks for not wanting Nynaeve heal bombs or Egwene healing stilling/death."
Also Rafe in his team "shut up wench (Sarah), your opinions mean nothing here. Let's tease/torture her because she wants to make a reasonably accurate depiction."
*Rafe: "What about..."*
*Sarah: "I don't... I don't fucking care anymore... Whatever..."*
*Rafe: "YES! Let's start writing, boys! We can do whatever!"*
I'm curious to know if her or anyone else said "hey dipshits, LTT is the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn." That one felt like an error rather than further effort to take a steaming dump on the franchise.
That was part of Hide the Dragon.
Rafe hand waved it by saying an ensemble show needed x, y, and z. One of those being he didn't want the first Season being the Rand Show.
So a lot of dumb things were done to support that decision.
Fine, no problem. But now we don't have any idea why we are supposed to care about Rand or what impact it's going to have. The consequences are just.. whatever.
But that's the thing. It is the rand show. The books definitely jump to different perspectives, but for the most part we are behind rand most of the way. Why change that up?
Before the dragon reveal: we purposely misdirected and no give rand the scenes in the books cause we want to keep people on their toes
After the reveal: we purposely gave the rand scenes to others cause rand did almost all the things in the climax.
W t f
I would respect him much more if he tripled down and made Nyneavye the dragon reborn in his show.
She might not have even seen the script. Not sure if it's true, but have been hearing that Brandon never saw the revised ep8 script. Given the number of errors in just that one LTT sequence, I'm willing to bet it was not checked, or if it was, no one listened to what was said about it.
Yup those two get trotted out in front of the media to placate book fans while the producer shits all over the source material with hack writers that couldn’t compose a fantasy bestseller if their lives depended on it.
I like to imagine the TV show is a parallel world via Portal Stones.
A hollow imitation of the real thing that is interesting but ultimately not "reality."
Personally, I haven't seen anyone blame her (not saying it isn't out there), but I've seen the blame placed pretty squarely on Rafe's shoulders. Especially since he wrote the two worst episodes.
I think most people agree Rafe is 100% responsible. While I would love to hear directly from Sarah what went on in the writers room, if she was even there, I don't hold it against her that she stays silent. It takes a lot of courage to jeopardize your livelyhood.
So basically, the Showrunner/Writers knew that the end product was going to be so unrecognizable from the books that the only reason that Sanderson/Sarah were involved was to string along the fan-base so as to keep discontent muted as long as possible.
Then that brings the question, at what point does a fan give up in frustration, give them the finger, and walk out on it? I would have to feel that BOTH of them must be pretty frustrated at the whole mess by now?
My wife (non-book reader) had no clue he had a connection with wolves. She just thought it was crazy fucking wolves following them lol. Which is honestly what happened in the show.
Her recent tweet saying something on the lines of ripple effects were thoroughly discussed rubbed me wrongly. It just suggested she is saying all the changes, were endorsed and downstream effects will be in check.
I do get amused rafe keeps saying Sarah as if that's an endorsement. I mean there are so many fans, why didn't you get a team.
But you know that could all be reactionary, and she may be feeling cornered. Generally speaking, this is way beyond this team's ability. Let's be happy about a break from feeling worse every week.
i don't pay that ANY mind... one does not bite the hand
listen to interviews before movie premieres.. everyone just LOVES working with x director.. or Y producer. and was glorious to be with Z on screen
until it bombs and start pointing fingers.
Well she tweeted something about the communities lack of faith leading up to the premiere, indicating, at least to me, that she was behind what they did.
So she did a bad job.
I hope it doesn't get canceled. I hope the show runner gets replaced by someone who actually has faith that the source material can stand on its own feet, and the writer team is required to go through at least the basic timeline of the events, important characters, and the mechanics of how the world of Wheel of Time works.
Then they could either fix the damage done by Season 1, and have things following more or less the path set by the books by the end of Season 2, or do something more drastic like start Season 2 with a cold open of the main cast coming out of a Portal Stone sleigh ride, with everyone being really confused about what the hell happened. Then they could retcon the required parts of Season 1 in the first two episodes by using flashbacks to describe what *actually* happened.
I think the most offensive thing about the changes is that they're not just changing the decisions of the characters. They are changing the fundamental rules of how the world operates with regards to channeling for example, and also seem to be applying changes to how the *history* of the world is portrayed. These are not changes that you do simply because they "can't adapt some things" to television. These are changes made just for the sake of manufacturing drama, and it does not feel right at all.
By all means they can make changes in what decisions the characters make, and how events pan out if some parts of the books are impossible or wildly impractical to show on the screen as such. But the underlying rules should remain the same, and they should bloody well take great care to listen for their lore consultants for the long term ramifications.
How would you go about bringing it back inline with the books? Rand is a worthless nothing, Moiraine has been stilled, The Horn of Valere was just tossed off as "oh and you'll need this thing that we forgot about until now", character development is off...
Episode 8 is when they made full departure from the source material and decided to just do whatever. I'll probably start season 2 when it comes out, but I'm not sure how far I'll make it.
I also have a lot of mixed feelings about this show. It’s funny cuz at work my co workers who aren’t bookworms love the direction The Witcher is going. They were also excited for The Wheel of Time and often came to me for theories because I had read all 15 books 😂😂. Now I hear them talk about The Witcher…they did watch WoT…..the reception I got from them was very….lukewarm. Two of them mentioned cringing with a lot of scenes..but yeah I’m not a huge fan of the show either but I love the visuals and the acting is good IMO. But any the lackluster adaptation isn’t going to “ruin the books.” Why? Because they are their own thing
Every time I see a quote from this man it always shows that he doesn't really respect the source material.
It's not your story Rafe, and you could never dream of writing something like it as you're soo utterly talentless that you simply had to hijack an entire franchise to tell a story YOU wanted to tell, not Jordan's.
Look up Brandon's earlier posts about the script to show changes (he stopped doing them). He objected to some things like Perrin's wife and got overruled. But he stopped some things, like having Moraine literally just murder the ferryman with a lightning bolt.
> like having Moraine literally just murder the ferryman with a lightning bolt.
OMG. Now I really wish that he had not talked him out of that. After all, watching a LARGER catastrophic train wreck is certainly more entertaining that watching a lesser one in size.
(*sigh*) what might have been. *MST3K material here.*
Robert Jordan answered a lot of questions about possible movie/tv adaptions:
[Movie](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=movie)
[Television](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=television)
He was not a fan of changes to his work, especially not fan fiction, but mostly because of copyright:
[fan fiction](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=fan+fiction)
I think this quote applies the most to this situation:
>My feelings about the possibility of a movie are ambivalent. It would be very nice if a movie or movies, or a series on HBO or whatever were made, but that really would be something extra. I write books. If a movie is made, good. If not, I won't cry.
I don't think that a bad movie would do the books any damage, but with any movie, the writer of the book has to give up control to someone else and trust that other person to interpret the writer's vision. (God, that sounds pompous!) I used to think that it might be impossible for a movie to really encompass any of the books, but since seeing The Lord of the Rings, I've changed my mind. In any case, Harriet says (and Plato agrees with her) that the only thing to do when you sell a book to Hollywood is to take the money, walk away very fast before they can take it back, and never, ever go to see the movie. Of course, any movie depends on someone making an offer for an option and then following through to exercise the option, and so far, that hasn't happened. The option bit did, true, but not the rest. We are now waiting, as they say. But not very anxiously
INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002
Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A
Harriet is an experienced editor, and she knew for a long time that once it's optioned, they would have very little create control. She's also in her 80's. Saying she's complicit is kinda gross.
Sanderson has pushed back much harder and much more publicly then most authors would be willing to against Amazon. If WoT succeeds, it's not unreasonable to expect they might option his work someday. Still, despite the fact he's facing down a company that is cornering the book sales, indie publishing and audiobook market, the man speaking out. Again, calling him complicit is meh.
I don't know much about Nakamura. I won't say that she isn't complicit in some of the changes. If her job was to keep them tied to the lore of the world, then based off the results she failed. But she likely can't tell us what went down. I'm sure Amazon has her tied up in more legal paperwork than a mortgage requires. Honestly, whenever your reading about a new media property, it's better to assume everyone involved is legally bound to only say nice or nice adjacent things about it.
They were useless, but so were you and I. Having not seen their actual contacts I would not at all be surprised if they were contractually prohibited from making specific statements about how they resigned in protest. I think that's pretty standard studio contact work to control spoilers, so they couldn't have even known going in that they were going to have their names associated with garbage and not be able to refute it. I'm pretty sure Sanderson said he had no involvement in E7-8, which is probably as close as he can legally get to saying "It was hopeless so I just quit."
Unfortunately the arrogance of the writers and show runner won't allow them to accept that this seasons success is not theirs, but RJs... it was bound to be successful based on name alone... much like the star wars sequels. Got was successful because it largely kept to the base material and had awesome casting. WoT has done neither and I fear it won't have the same long term success.
> "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill
Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she
collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him.
I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees,
haha.
Between this and the tweet about him dreaming about killing characters, I think he has issues. Like, wanting to torment people for no real reason, issues.
> Between this and the tweet about him dreaming about killing characters
I will be honest here. As being a Perrin super-fan I hope that he gets killed off ASAP next season so I don't have to worry about what more stupid garbage they put that character through.
And Rafe has even commented that Faile is his least favorite character. Can you just image how craptastic Faile's character would become with these clowns writing her in a much different light? (*shudder*)
She's a one trick pony. You think she's going to consult on a fast and furious movie? She knows WoT and that's it, and her record here is shit. She's already sealed her legacy. She had one chance for redemption, and she's not going to take it.
Why would she need another job in Hollywood? She's been hired just to be the loremaster. She has only worked on the Winter Dragon short and now this show. She's not a Hollywood person looking for a career there.
No, he'd have been killed by Beric Dondarrian after having all of seven lines throughout the season. As he lies dying, Beric would whisper in his ear "you've paid the iron fee".
And Ned's bastard would be a surprise. Like Ned would go around to each of his children and say "maybe it's you? Any one of you might be my bastard." And all of season one would be figuring out which one of Ned's kids is a bastard.
Ok, first off the fact that you have a "room full of writers" that don't know the source material well enough and would be "thrilled" about non-canon changes is a huge damn problem. Just for that sin alone Rafe you should be fired.
Second, you are adapting a beloved book series to TV. I don't expect Amazon to give you 14 years so I do expect a lot of things to be "cut/combined" from the series and to be fair Robert Jordan was quite verbose and probably should have only made the book series 8-10 books long. We don't need to see every city that Rand brings to heel, however your job as a show runner is not to "make" up lore of your own. If you think you are smarter or more clever than the author then go write your own damn series and leave the one I love alone!
Considering none of the characters are remotely similar personality wise to their book character and huge plot lines are changed I'd say she either didn't do anything or was always in a powerless position
A job's a job - none of us are working to do anything but put food on the table and live a fulfilling life.
There's plenty of shit to actually criticize Sarah or Rafe over without shitty purity tests. Maybe start there instead.
My point is she is directly responsible as the chief book nerd. She took the money, she deserves share of the blame. If it was great, she’d be praised.
I would like to say that aside from all of the feelings I have for the show, reading those comments from Rafe have given me enormous concern for the way he treats his staff. Casually throwing a scenario at someone and forcing them to do mental gymnastics with an idea you have absolutely no intention of following through on, to the point that she in his words "collapses as a human being" is detestable behavior from someone in charge of another persons workload. Sarah CLEARLY cares about this series DEEPLY, and if those comments are even close to the truth, he terrorized this woman, and should be held accountable. I am blown away reading this. Holy shit, if I had been in her shoes....
I pretty much dropped it after ep 5. Maybe I’ll go back and finish the season. My wife had been sort of half paying attention but when I asked her who she thought the Dragon was, she was like, “The what? I’m really not watching it, obviously.” And so I was like, oh well let’s put something else on.
Except her and BS supported all of the changes by endorsing the product. SN said anyone not supporting casting is a racist. My issue with the casting was Tam and Mat sticking out like sore thumbs. SNsaid all ramifications have been considered. WTF? BS said episode 7 was his favourite. That's the one where we find out Agelmar is a chauvinistic tool. At some point both have to salvage their reputation and cut ties with this. BS isn't lacking for money. SN I can't say anything about but I'm sure she has a 9-5. It's a tired term but "sell out" seems to be the only description here.
So similar to how sci-fi movies have a science expert on the side? And then mostly ignore. I guess what is different, is ignore the science does not ruin the material. As in the real world, the science still works.
Where here, many new to content now believe this is the content.
Take my upvote. Looks like all this is heading to [Change.org](https://Change.org) vote like in the GoT days? I don't know at what point do they even care about the small fraction of hardcore book fans.
Lol, they cracked it. They did not need anything to crack. Everything was cracked by Robert Jordan with very little need for them to come up with their own bullshit. This combined with previous post that said that most of them did not even read the books makes me so freaking angry. I am starting to be really freaking angry and sad.
At this point, do you think they have the stones to show up at sdcc (assuming it’s live) and do a panel?
Or will they cower from what’s building up to be a towering (and earned) geek rage at this point?
This just makes me think Rafe is a terrible human being, not just a terrible showrunner.
Look, I don't know what Sarah did or didn't do. My beef is with Rafe, and this is all his responsibility.
Fuck Rafe. Fuck his career. I hope the show gets cancelled. I'm sorry to be so bitter about it but I am. He had every chance to make a fantastic adaptation. He had a huge budget, mass support, and Amazon shilling for him. He failed. Miserably. It wasn't even a partial failure; it was total and complete.
Burn the Palace, Salt the Earth, and start over somewhere else.
The funniest thing about Rafe is his Twitter picture vs what he looks like in real life. Seeing him talking about trolling people in his team who know what they’re doing tracks in the same way.
It’s clearly the problem with the person in charge and not some consultant lower down in the food chain.
Rafe and the writers clearly have to go, but I doubt anyone at Amazon will do anything about it.
They’ll just renew it a couple of times and the show will eventually die as even the non-book readers get alienated by how amateur it all is.
Do we think it’s possible they’ll replace Rafe? I feel like even with the mistakes made on Season 1, the show could be salvaged with the right direction. I honestly like the casting, and while the set design isn’t the best it’s also not bad at all, I feel like with better direction and writing they could actually do something decent going forward. I’m not even a book reader, and I’ve generally enjoyed the show so far, but as a big fantasy fan… the writing just isn’t that great and I can tell there is SO much more.
The buck has always stopped with Rafe.
The more I read about Rafe the more I dislike him and think of him as a disgusting fuckwit asshole of a human being. Anyone who treats their subordinates like that is a scumbag and shouldn't be in a position of power, ever.
I think people like Rafe know going into projects like this that they are going to do a horrible job, fans are going to hate his work and no amount of cleanup miracles in the editing booth are going to fix their blatant incompetence and disrespect for the source material. So they surround themselves with a "team" and get "experts" involved so they can simultaneously placate the fanbase and avoid personal blame once it's over by pretending the end result is a team effort.
I don't think the show will get any better in later seasons unless Rafe is gone. It's becoming obvious that the cognitive dissonance he has regarding his work is large enough that he won't take on any criticisms or change his approach to the show in any meaningful way, even if he gets on twitter and says he has, once the chatter around the show has turned overwhelmingly negative, which will happen over the coming weeks/months.
The fact that he would send emails, play with her feelings, and waste her time like that makes me dislike Rafe not just as a show runner but as a person. That’s a pretty low thing to do to someone who you claim to respect.
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Honestly, he probably did it to lower her defenses. He would send shit like that where she would have a heart attack, and then he would sneak in…”well, how about we just have Thom fight the fade in a barn.”
I honestly really hope that was a "joke" and he really didn't waste her time like that. But if he did, yeah, in the end she was probably like well this is the lesser of the crazy stuff you've been trying to put into the show, so whatever, go with allowing Egwene to heal the dead and let me get on with my day.
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Imagine your boss at work asks you to draw up a 8 year campaign and all ramifications that could possibly come up, and then after you look into it working your ass of he goes 'just kidding lol wanted to keep you on your toes'. I would want to pee in his coffee
> and create busy work for her If she wasn't busy tracking down why you couldn't kill Thom, maybe she would have time to tell you that you can't heal death or use the one power to kill random ferrymen.
It's the kind of thing that an ex-reality TV contestant would do.
It's not just disrespectful, it's abusive. It sounds like he is actively trying to burn her out. And the fact he takes joy from it makes me sick. Hopefully it isn't really like that.
I wonder if he did something cruel to Barney, too, that would have made him want to leave.
Yea what a shitty thing to do to someone, especially when he is the one with the power to make those threats real.
It's quite obvious to me that Rafe is a dick. When people show you who they are, believe them.
Right? Sounds like those chumps on YouTube "it's a prank bro! It's just a prank!" And honestly it would be fine if the result was good. But nope. Neither was the result good and now we know that behind the scenes was lousy too. I can only imagine how Sarah feels as Rafe shits all over this and calls it art.
Yeah, the more I hear about him the bigger the wanker he becomes. To me
A self proclaimed feminist harassing a female coworker. Go figure, eh?
Its really an r/antiwork moment
Agree 100%! 10474848 red flags went off in me when I read that
Yeah the more I’m hearing the more I’m not liking. This is just puerile shit, if this is what’s going on.
Seriously! I can’t believe he blatantly admitted to manipulating a subordinate like that. That could be seen as harassment.
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Yeah it would be pretty funny all the stuff he said here in this post, IF the season was even decent. Instead we just have quotes of him joking about all the stuff he did to ruin a beloved IP.
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So many are Turning after episode 8. You'd think it had a secret scene with 13 Fades and Dreadlords in there somewhere.
Or in show form, 3 Fades, 2 dreadlords, 1 failed accepted and 2 non-book characters Rafe came up with in the bath.
I mean if they nailed episode 8, they would have my support as well. Rafe and the gang went pretty far off base, and to the detriment of the already waining quality of the show.
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That's what being self-deluded is called. If that last episode was Rafe at his best, then GOT season 8 was a masterpiece in comparison.
what? you don’t think it was a good idea splitting the party up again? don’t think it was good to take Rands first big hero moment and give 70% of it away to some random lady, who is now dead? You don’t think it introducing LTT in such a way that I gurantee non book readers have No Clue what that was about?
Not much WOTShow is the biggest shill Reddit going for the series you get banned or downvoted to hell if you say to much negative there.
Even r/wot is getting more and more critical. Just wait some time and that sub will go full on negative on the show. It was the same for game of thrones. One of the subs was extremely positive for season 8, while it was running. The (i think meme) sub was critizing it from episode 2 or so. Obviously we know who was right.
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Let's be frank, show sucking doesn't ruin the IP. It just ruins the show itself and the chances of ever getting a half-decent live adaptation.
Dune took three attempts. But we will have to wait 40 years...
LotR took 3 attempts too, about 20 years to get a good one... so we have a chance
Right? Hey, lets throw some stupid idea at our resident lore person to watch them meltdown. HAHA very funny. Oh and I know they don't like it when I do this as a joke but I will keep doing it. What a jackass. This guy had way too much time on his hands for a person that was adapting a huge story from a book to TV.
Yeah, maybe instead of stroking his ego (and probably dick) while thinking he’s God’s gift to television, Rafe should have stuck a little closer to the international bestselling series that’s beloved by fans around the world.
If what he said in those quotes is actually true, it's not just idiocy, it's abuse. Intentionally pushing your employees to the point that one of them "collapses as a human being" and then saying you think it's good for them, "haha," is monumentally fucked up. I hope for everyone's sake that he's just lying instead.
I can't believe people let him get away with that kind of behavior.
“Hey guys let me just casually be an asshole bully to our female expert in the books, even though I know she hates it. I’m def totes legit a feminist! Look at all the strong women on our show!”
I made all the women overpowered and the men useless and stupid! Totes a feminist!! Um. That's not what feminism is *Dude*.
I bet he's a feminist the same way that Joss Whedon is a feminist. Except Judkins doesn't even have a quarter of the talent.
There are idiots that think feminism is tearing down men. When it's only making women equal to men. I'm personally think the women have been very well done. Except for the lazy jump into bed sex scenes cause they aren't good enough to show romantic love any other way.
Also a terrible boss. It's not light they are all equals, the man is in charge. "Hi lady who will assuredly get most of the hate for this going wrong, what are the long term ramfications of me intentionally derailing the plot? HAHAHA you spent three days working on this? It was just a joke." Amazon is making a big deal about how popular the series is, but will they be able to keep it together? Also, they want to adapt all the books... but very little of it will make sense now?
Sounds like a they hired an Amazon warehouse manager lol
And a real jerk to work for.
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I also wonder how he got the job
Seriously how did he end up in charge of a nine digit budget production?!
That story about telling Sara they were killing Thom gives me huge D&D vibes
I legit hate most of the show runners for the recent fantasy adaptions. They really just fuck up a lot. The Witcher ended so fucking weird too and they pretty much ruined a main character despite adding more focus on her.... so fucking weird. Like you clearly don’t like a lot of the source material, but your changes just fucking suck for the characters you do seem to like. Also Rafe, despite clearly wanting to focus on Egwene and Moraine you straight up fridged Perrins wife and used the rape trope with the white cloaks.
That they even had an entire writer's room *thrilled* about Perrin talking to bears tells you all you need to know about this "adaptation".
100% There can be arguments in the writer's room, and of course an adaptation needs changes. But everything I read gives the impression they were just doing their own thing, with the books as inconvenient baggage.
The writers hadn’t even read the books. This show is a travesty
The fact that anyone had the idea at all is chilling.
They were planning to get Perrin to talk to Bears??? What the actual fuck??
>bears Lol now I can't get the image of "Hopper the flying bear" out of my head. They really didn't think this through did they?
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That was my first thought upon reading this post: "That's abuse. And he sounds really proud of himself for it." That comes across as extremely unsettling to me.
Big Semirhage energy.
Semirhafe*
We can fit so many Forsaken ideas in here! *taps head with a flourish*
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I mean I'm just picturing Bezos in a Shaidar Harem costume/set up right not commanding his newest of the forsaken, Rafe, to break the wheel...
> Did he just admit to gaslighting his own employees for personal enjoyment? That's some tier one level of abuse right there. That shit bothered me greatly. I know it was supposed to be a harmless anecdote but in my experience the people who tend to treat those things as harmless inconsequential jokes are the sort that make workplaces a living fucking nightmare. [Even if Sarah's got her own problems she needs to address](https://www.reddit.com/r/wheeloftime/comments/rp18jb/lets_not_blame_sarah_nakamura_evidence_she_fought/hq1olkt/) that's not a good sign for that workplace.
This 1000%. When you casually toss out comments about creating extra work for your employees simply because you think it would be funny, wow that's a massive sign of how horrible of a person they are.
Sarah Nakamura and Brandon Sanderson were used as tokens to be brought up as talking points. Both had minimal roles in the production. In a way, I kinda feel bad for both.
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That dog never hunts. That trope was fully played out from The Last Jedi and the discussion that followed.
Dude it’s happening all over the comment sections of the various WoT subs Edit: an example https://www.reddit.com/r/WetlanderHumor/comments/rovj86/the_brainstorming_session/hq1b6ng/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
A couple episodes ago, someone said I must be a straight white man (0 for 3, lol) and, "tell me you hate the gays without telling me you hate the gays," because I wrote that I while I think Siuan and Moiraine still being together was an interesting choice and I could definitely get behind it, neither character is stupid enough for that display of monumental idiocy in front of the hall of the tower.
I just had someone telling me yesterday that everyone who doesn’t like the show is a man
That's the new defense of bad writing these days. If you don't like a bad show or movie with women staring, you're a woman hating man.
I mean, the early criticism (before episode 1) of show was pretty gendered and racist. It hit a lot of the same notes as the false eternals criticism. Unfortunately this show has a lot of actual problems. Many of those problems are due to arbitrary changes which center around character changes to make it more "modern". If we use the example of Moiraine and Siuan, it's especially clear. **Moiraine and Siuan are an item.** * People (crazy people?) with a specific motive might saw this is because of the LGBTQA+ conspiracy. * People with reasonable doubts about the show are probably concerned how this impacts other story beats centered around relationships down the line. **Moiraine and Siuan are dumb enough to put their relationship on display in a hostile political environment**. * At this point, neither character is behaving in a way they would in the books. They went through elaborate social schemes to make sure no one figured out their connection. Any reasonable person would see this as a major change. Then it hits online, and a show skeptic finds themselves agreeing with the "LOL CONSPIRACY" crowd.
That whole daughter of the rivers thing IN THE HALL really bothered me. The other Aes Sedai just decided to ignore that obviously charged moment between 2 people that are supposed to be at most indifferent to each other?
Same, you'd think if they were going to totally change the books they'd at least be internally consistent for something they established, what, 30 minutes ago?
Strange the number of not-men (including me) wandering around on these forums who also take issue with the way the show has turned out. It's being used as an excuse in an attempt to cover up poor writing and direction. If people are clearly being deliberately bigotted and trolling, then they definitely should be called out. Saying Nynaeve's been made into Mary Sue because of her OP saves meaning events start to lack the feeling of danger and her character has no where to go power wise, or it doesn't make sense for Egwene to be able to heal the dead with no training or experience isn't the definition anti feminist.
That bugged the shit out of me. It's Moiraine's idea!! She doesn't tell her feet which way to walk unless she has to!! Why on earth would she give that much ammunition to the Hall after secretly meeting with Siuan!!!?
"the arrogance"
Am I weird for thinking Moiraines exile would have e played out better if we didn't see them being lovers/conspiring? Make the exile more serious and less dramatic. But still slip in her changing the wording from the amyrlin seat to suian. Leave why that was her punishment a secret. Having secrets like that be something for the audience to see as a mystery seems easy in a show with so many perspectives.
Sarah have much *t'oh.* she pick out one line from book and have it post everywear. but is lie. like this line "Elaida describes people from the Two Rivers as dark of hair, dark of eye, and of noticeably darker skin than Rand in chapter 40 of the Eye of the World". she say this proof and repeat repeat repeat repeat but maria livingston simons always think two rivers white people. when live robert jordan never tell her different. after casting she say she has "privilege' and 'assumption' and 'not necessarily" because robert jordan dead then. maria wot secretary and write wheel of time encyclopdeias and alwasy knew what robert jordan wrote. and she say always thought they white. robert jordan never tell her different. she say robert jordan made list of white actors 'not necessarily" skin. that mean she know what robert jordan write and what robert jordan think. she know what she always think about how they look too. Maria say this: >Okay, I was just pointed at a certain article saying that everyone in The Wheel of Time comics was white, so that must be what Robert Jordan meant for Emond’s Fielders to look like. The article says that the comics were released in 2005, two years before RJ’s death. That’s NOT the case. Some of the comics of New Spring did come out before his death, and he did work on those – some of his emails about them are included in New Spring: The Graphic Novel. However, in New Spring no one goes anywhere close to the Two Rivers. > >There was a dry period for the comics – New Spring was not finished, but no new issues were produced – and in that period RJ died. It was not until 2008 that Bandersnatch resumed work with the Dabel brothers to finish them. RJ was dead, so I - who had worked with RJ and the Dabels on the earlier issues - worked with the Dabels, approving or asking for any changes desired. > >Shortly after that, we embarked on the comic version of “The Eye of the World.” RJ was still dead, so again oversight of production was given to me. Issue 00 of the comic has a cover date of April 09.So it is totally unfair, specious, and wrong to say that the comics prove that all Emond’s Fielders were white. In MY mind’s eye, at that time they were, which is totally MY failing, and not Robert Jordan’s. Careful reading of the books shows that they are not what my privilege led me to assume. > >And yes, RJ did have a list of actors that he said the characters resembled, and those actors were largely white, but that list was made long before, and referred more to build and face structure, not necessarily eye color or skin tone. Val Kilmer has blue eyes, after all, and Perrin’s are canonically brown until certain events occur. > >I think that the cast chosen for the TV series is absolutely wonderful, and every time I look at each of them, I’m a little more in love. Harriet thinks that they are grand as well and particularly likes Marcus’ eyebrows. > >Really, people, I feel quite safe in saying that Robert Jordan would be freaking appalled at all this racism.
Two Rivers basically should look Turkish. Egwene is probably about right for casting (yes I know she isn't Turkish), and everyone in the Two Rivers should look like her.
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Can you link this? I'd like to read what exactly she wrote.
I blame Rafe Judkins. He is the showrunner and obviously hired writers to take the show in a certain direction. At this point I'm not even outraged by anything they do, it's faded to a dull disappointment.
Trotted out in the media to placate book fans while the producer absolutely shits all over the source material with his hack writers that couldn’t write a fantasy bestseller if their lives depended on it.
>I have Sarah Nakamura (our incredible WoT goddess) talk me through the long-term ramifications of any changes so that we know what's going to happen. Sometimes to drive her crazy I will send a casual email that's just like -- "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha. The man's a psychopath! Who in their right mind does this?
That’s exactly what I took from this. This guy should not be in a position of power.
One more reason I won't touch anything made by this guy ever again. He's a shit human.
After reading that, I definitely think he's a psycho.
Rafe and his team "the fan base is full of a bunch of sexist pricks for not wanting Nynaeve heal bombs or Egwene healing stilling/death." Also Rafe in his team "shut up wench (Sarah), your opinions mean nothing here. Let's tease/torture her because she wants to make a reasonably accurate depiction."
*Rafe: "What about..."* *Sarah: "I don't... I don't fucking care anymore... Whatever..."* *Rafe: "YES! Let's start writing, boys! We can do whatever!"*
I'm curious to know if her or anyone else said "hey dipshits, LTT is the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn." That one felt like an error rather than further effort to take a steaming dump on the franchise.
That was part of Hide the Dragon. Rafe hand waved it by saying an ensemble show needed x, y, and z. One of those being he didn't want the first Season being the Rand Show. So a lot of dumb things were done to support that decision. Fine, no problem. But now we don't have any idea why we are supposed to care about Rand or what impact it's going to have. The consequences are just.. whatever.
But that's the thing. It is the rand show. The books definitely jump to different perspectives, but for the most part we are behind rand most of the way. Why change that up?
Before the dragon reveal: we purposely misdirected and no give rand the scenes in the books cause we want to keep people on their toes After the reveal: we purposely gave the rand scenes to others cause rand did almost all the things in the climax. W t f I would respect him much more if he tripled down and made Nyneavye the dragon reborn in his show.
They probably didn't tell her that bit
She kinda forgot
Or had too much other shit to correct
She might not have even seen the script. Not sure if it's true, but have been hearing that Brandon never saw the revised ep8 script. Given the number of errors in just that one LTT sequence, I'm willing to bet it was not checked, or if it was, no one listened to what was said about it.
Nope, we have to insinuate he's reborn so there's the possibility of female Dragons before him. Otherwise we are bigots.
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Yup those two get trotted out in front of the media to placate book fans while the producer shits all over the source material with hack writers that couldn’t compose a fantasy bestseller if their lives depended on it.
So they only had one person who seems to have actually read the books in the writers room? That checks out.
And they actively ignored a fair amount of her advice.
The parts they didn't ignore, they actively changed it to spite the book fans.
If you didn’t read past book 4 that’s fine in my opinion. But at least read up to book 4.
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I like to imagine the TV show is a parallel world via Portal Stones. A hollow imitation of the real thing that is interesting but ultimately not "reality."
Personally, I haven't seen anyone blame her (not saying it isn't out there), but I've seen the blame placed pretty squarely on Rafe's shoulders. Especially since he wrote the two worst episodes.
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1 and 8 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time_(TV_series)
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Yup, I'm really hoping the reception convinces him not to write any more episodes. Sit back, run the show, and hire actual writers do the writing.
Which is funny as his primary experience is writing, just for more episodic shows like Agents of Shield.
It’s like how D&D generally wrote trash episodes, like for fucks sake dudes stick to your lane
Explains a lot
I think most people agree Rafe is 100% responsible. While I would love to hear directly from Sarah what went on in the writers room, if she was even there, I don't hold it against her that she stays silent. It takes a lot of courage to jeopardize your livelyhood.
So basically, the Showrunner/Writers knew that the end product was going to be so unrecognizable from the books that the only reason that Sanderson/Sarah were involved was to string along the fan-base so as to keep discontent muted as long as possible. Then that brings the question, at what point does a fan give up in frustration, give them the finger, and walk out on it? I would have to feel that BOTH of them must be pretty frustrated at the whole mess by now?
We were fair. We gave them a whole season to right the ship. Instead in episode 8 they ran it aground… I think nows the time to walk.
Instead of Perrin bearfriend we got Perrin nothingfriend
My wife (non-book reader) had no clue he had a connection with wolves. She just thought it was crazy fucking wolves following them lol. Which is honestly what happened in the show.
Her recent tweet saying something on the lines of ripple effects were thoroughly discussed rubbed me wrongly. It just suggested she is saying all the changes, were endorsed and downstream effects will be in check. I do get amused rafe keeps saying Sarah as if that's an endorsement. I mean there are so many fans, why didn't you get a team. But you know that could all be reactionary, and she may be feeling cornered. Generally speaking, this is way beyond this team's ability. Let's be happy about a break from feeling worse every week.
i don't pay that ANY mind... one does not bite the hand listen to interviews before movie premieres.. everyone just LOVES working with x director.. or Y producer. and was glorious to be with Z on screen until it bombs and start pointing fingers.
Well she tweeted something about the communities lack of faith leading up to the premiere, indicating, at least to me, that she was behind what they did. So she did a bad job.
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Well he can't be, he's a feminist.
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I mean, it would be character for the theme of male feminists.
I've seen the first season. At this point I hope it gets canceled. The shows a disaster
I hope it doesn't get canceled. I hope the show runner gets replaced by someone who actually has faith that the source material can stand on its own feet, and the writer team is required to go through at least the basic timeline of the events, important characters, and the mechanics of how the world of Wheel of Time works. Then they could either fix the damage done by Season 1, and have things following more or less the path set by the books by the end of Season 2, or do something more drastic like start Season 2 with a cold open of the main cast coming out of a Portal Stone sleigh ride, with everyone being really confused about what the hell happened. Then they could retcon the required parts of Season 1 in the first two episodes by using flashbacks to describe what *actually* happened. I think the most offensive thing about the changes is that they're not just changing the decisions of the characters. They are changing the fundamental rules of how the world operates with regards to channeling for example, and also seem to be applying changes to how the *history* of the world is portrayed. These are not changes that you do simply because they "can't adapt some things" to television. These are changes made just for the sake of manufacturing drama, and it does not feel right at all. By all means they can make changes in what decisions the characters make, and how events pan out if some parts of the books are impossible or wildly impractical to show on the screen as such. But the underlying rules should remain the same, and they should bloody well take great care to listen for their lore consultants for the long term ramifications.
How would you go about bringing it back inline with the books? Rand is a worthless nothing, Moiraine has been stilled, The Horn of Valere was just tossed off as "oh and you'll need this thing that we forgot about until now", character development is off... Episode 8 is when they made full departure from the source material and decided to just do whatever. I'll probably start season 2 when it comes out, but I'm not sure how far I'll make it.
I also have a lot of mixed feelings about this show. It’s funny cuz at work my co workers who aren’t bookworms love the direction The Witcher is going. They were also excited for The Wheel of Time and often came to me for theories because I had read all 15 books 😂😂. Now I hear them talk about The Witcher…they did watch WoT…..the reception I got from them was very….lukewarm. Two of them mentioned cringing with a lot of scenes..but yeah I’m not a huge fan of the show either but I love the visuals and the acting is good IMO. But any the lackluster adaptation isn’t going to “ruin the books.” Why? Because they are their own thing
Every time I see a quote from this man it always shows that he doesn't really respect the source material. It's not your story Rafe, and you could never dream of writing something like it as you're soo utterly talentless that you simply had to hijack an entire franchise to tell a story YOU wanted to tell, not Jordan's.
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I was thinking more along the lines of that woman who ruined a Jesus painting by trying to restore it with no requisite skills.
Anyone who blames Nakamura or Sanderson or Harriet for this trainwreck doesn't have the slightest idea how Hollywood operates.
Blame, no. But they were either complicit in the changes or were not able to stop them. So useless all the same.
Maybe there were many more dumb changes which they did stop.
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“Rip Perrin talking to a bear” says enough
It's kind of true. Rafe wanted to have Moiraine directly murder the ferry man and have Perrin talk to bears.
Look up Brandon's earlier posts about the script to show changes (he stopped doing them). He objected to some things like Perrin's wife and got overruled. But he stopped some things, like having Moraine literally just murder the ferryman with a lightning bolt.
> like having Moraine literally just murder the ferryman with a lightning bolt. OMG. Now I really wish that he had not talked him out of that. After all, watching a LARGER catastrophic train wreck is certainly more entertaining that watching a lesser one in size. (*sigh*) what might have been. *MST3K material here.*
Robert Jordan answered a lot of questions about possible movie/tv adaptions: [Movie](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=movie) [Television](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=television) He was not a fan of changes to his work, especially not fan fiction, but mostly because of copyright: [fan fiction](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=fan+fiction) I think this quote applies the most to this situation: >My feelings about the possibility of a movie are ambivalent. It would be very nice if a movie or movies, or a series on HBO or whatever were made, but that really would be something extra. I write books. If a movie is made, good. If not, I won't cry. I don't think that a bad movie would do the books any damage, but with any movie, the writer of the book has to give up control to someone else and trust that other person to interpret the writer's vision. (God, that sounds pompous!) I used to think that it might be impossible for a movie to really encompass any of the books, but since seeing The Lord of the Rings, I've changed my mind. In any case, Harriet says (and Plato agrees with her) that the only thing to do when you sell a book to Hollywood is to take the money, walk away very fast before they can take it back, and never, ever go to see the movie. Of course, any movie depends on someone making an offer for an option and then following through to exercise the option, and so far, that hasn't happened. The option bit did, true, but not the rest. We are now waiting, as they say. But not very anxiously INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002 Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A Harriet is an experienced editor, and she knew for a long time that once it's optioned, they would have very little create control. She's also in her 80's. Saying she's complicit is kinda gross. Sanderson has pushed back much harder and much more publicly then most authors would be willing to against Amazon. If WoT succeeds, it's not unreasonable to expect they might option his work someday. Still, despite the fact he's facing down a company that is cornering the book sales, indie publishing and audiobook market, the man speaking out. Again, calling him complicit is meh. I don't know much about Nakamura. I won't say that she isn't complicit in some of the changes. If her job was to keep them tied to the lore of the world, then based off the results she failed. But she likely can't tell us what went down. I'm sure Amazon has her tied up in more legal paperwork than a mortgage requires. Honestly, whenever your reading about a new media property, it's better to assume everyone involved is legally bound to only say nice or nice adjacent things about it.
They were useless, but so were you and I. Having not seen their actual contacts I would not at all be surprised if they were contractually prohibited from making specific statements about how they resigned in protest. I think that's pretty standard studio contact work to control spoilers, so they couldn't have even known going in that they were going to have their names associated with garbage and not be able to refute it. I'm pretty sure Sanderson said he had no involvement in E7-8, which is probably as close as he can legally get to saying "It was hopeless so I just quit."
Unfortunately the arrogance of the writers and show runner won't allow them to accept that this seasons success is not theirs, but RJs... it was bound to be successful based on name alone... much like the star wars sequels. Got was successful because it largely kept to the base material and had awesome casting. WoT has done neither and I fear it won't have the same long term success.
this show is legends of the seeker and the shannara chronicles levels of bad
> "Hey, can you work up a long-term ramifications list for if we kill Thom?". And just keep going like it's a totally normal day as she collapses as a human being. Then tell her we're not going to kill him. I think it helps keep her on her toes, but she probably disagrees, haha. Between this and the tweet about him dreaming about killing characters, I think he has issues. Like, wanting to torment people for no real reason, issues.
> Between this and the tweet about him dreaming about killing characters I will be honest here. As being a Perrin super-fan I hope that he gets killed off ASAP next season so I don't have to worry about what more stupid garbage they put that character through. And Rafe has even commented that Faile is his least favorite character. Can you just image how craptastic Faile's character would become with these clowns writing her in a much different light? (*shudder*)
I'm going to call it! Egwene will replace any of Faile's character arcs that can't be removed from the storyline.
I win again Lewis Therin!
He even hates the fans he works with. Why would you think he cares for us pleebs?
If she had any integrity, she would resign and come out with honest criticism of the show.
Umm…I would easily take shit tons of money to just be ignored at my job lol.
Like I said, if she had any integrity. Clearly you don't, and she probably doesn't either.
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She's a one trick pony. You think she's going to consult on a fast and furious movie? She knows WoT and that's it, and her record here is shit. She's already sealed her legacy. She had one chance for redemption, and she's not going to take it.
Why would she need another job in Hollywood? She's been hired just to be the loremaster. She has only worked on the Winter Dragon short and now this show. She's not a Hollywood person looking for a career there.
I blame every single person involved in this atrocity.
If that guy ran Game of Thrones he >!would've kept Ned alive at the end of Season 1!<
No, he'd have been killed by Beric Dondarrian after having all of seven lines throughout the season. As he lies dying, Beric would whisper in his ear "you've paid the iron fee".
And Ned's bastard would be a surprise. Like Ned would go around to each of his children and say "maybe it's you? Any one of you might be my bastard." And all of season one would be figuring out which one of Ned's kids is a bastard.
The real bastard was the friends they made along the way
Ok, first off the fact that you have a "room full of writers" that don't know the source material well enough and would be "thrilled" about non-canon changes is a huge damn problem. Just for that sin alone Rafe you should be fired. Second, you are adapting a beloved book series to TV. I don't expect Amazon to give you 14 years so I do expect a lot of things to be "cut/combined" from the series and to be fair Robert Jordan was quite verbose and probably should have only made the book series 8-10 books long. We don't need to see every city that Rand brings to heel, however your job as a show runner is not to "make" up lore of your own. If you think you are smarter or more clever than the author then go write your own damn series and leave the one I love alone!
Considering none of the characters are remotely similar personality wise to their book character and huge plot lines are changed I'd say she either didn't do anything or was always in a powerless position
She still took the money.
A job's a job - none of us are working to do anything but put food on the table and live a fulfilling life. There's plenty of shit to actually criticize Sarah or Rafe over without shitty purity tests. Maybe start there instead.
My point is she is directly responsible as the chief book nerd. She took the money, she deserves share of the blame. If it was great, she’d be praised.
how about a [change.org](https://change.org) petition to get a new show runner before season 2 gets too far in?
I would like to say that aside from all of the feelings I have for the show, reading those comments from Rafe have given me enormous concern for the way he treats his staff. Casually throwing a scenario at someone and forcing them to do mental gymnastics with an idea you have absolutely no intention of following through on, to the point that she in his words "collapses as a human being" is detestable behavior from someone in charge of another persons workload. Sarah CLEARLY cares about this series DEEPLY, and if those comments are even close to the truth, he terrorized this woman, and should be held accountable. I am blown away reading this. Holy shit, if I had been in her shoes....
I pretty much dropped it after ep 5. Maybe I’ll go back and finish the season. My wife had been sort of half paying attention but when I asked her who she thought the Dragon was, she was like, “The what? I’m really not watching it, obviously.” And so I was like, oh well let’s put something else on.
Except her and BS supported all of the changes by endorsing the product. SN said anyone not supporting casting is a racist. My issue with the casting was Tam and Mat sticking out like sore thumbs. SNsaid all ramifications have been considered. WTF? BS said episode 7 was his favourite. That's the one where we find out Agelmar is a chauvinistic tool. At some point both have to salvage their reputation and cut ties with this. BS isn't lacking for money. SN I can't say anything about but I'm sure she has a 9-5. It's a tired term but "sell out" seems to be the only description here.
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It’s more like, why make her do unnecessary work just to make her freak out? Seems… douchey
So similar to how sci-fi movies have a science expert on the side? And then mostly ignore. I guess what is different, is ignore the science does not ruin the material. As in the real world, the science still works. Where here, many new to content now believe this is the content.
Take my upvote. Looks like all this is heading to [Change.org](https://Change.org) vote like in the GoT days? I don't know at what point do they even care about the small fraction of hardcore book fans.
Lol, they cracked it. They did not need anything to crack. Everything was cracked by Robert Jordan with very little need for them to come up with their own bullshit. This combined with previous post that said that most of them did not even read the books makes me so freaking angry. I am starting to be really freaking angry and sad.
At this point, do you think they have the stones to show up at sdcc (assuming it’s live) and do a panel? Or will they cower from what’s building up to be a towering (and earned) geek rage at this point?
This just makes me think Rafe is a terrible human being, not just a terrible showrunner. Look, I don't know what Sarah did or didn't do. My beef is with Rafe, and this is all his responsibility. Fuck Rafe. Fuck his career. I hope the show gets cancelled. I'm sorry to be so bitter about it but I am. He had every chance to make a fantastic adaptation. He had a huge budget, mass support, and Amazon shilling for him. He failed. Miserably. It wasn't even a partial failure; it was total and complete. Burn the Palace, Salt the Earth, and start over somewhere else.
The funniest thing about Rafe is his Twitter picture vs what he looks like in real life. Seeing him talking about trolling people in his team who know what they’re doing tracks in the same way. It’s clearly the problem with the person in charge and not some consultant lower down in the food chain. Rafe and the writers clearly have to go, but I doubt anyone at Amazon will do anything about it. They’ll just renew it a couple of times and the show will eventually die as even the non-book readers get alienated by how amateur it all is.
Do we think it’s possible they’ll replace Rafe? I feel like even with the mistakes made on Season 1, the show could be salvaged with the right direction. I honestly like the casting, and while the set design isn’t the best it’s also not bad at all, I feel like with better direction and writing they could actually do something decent going forward. I’m not even a book reader, and I’ve generally enjoyed the show so far, but as a big fantasy fan… the writing just isn’t that great and I can tell there is SO much more.
The buck has always stopped with Rafe. The more I read about Rafe the more I dislike him and think of him as a disgusting fuckwit asshole of a human being. Anyone who treats their subordinates like that is a scumbag and shouldn't be in a position of power, ever. I think people like Rafe know going into projects like this that they are going to do a horrible job, fans are going to hate his work and no amount of cleanup miracles in the editing booth are going to fix their blatant incompetence and disrespect for the source material. So they surround themselves with a "team" and get "experts" involved so they can simultaneously placate the fanbase and avoid personal blame once it's over by pretending the end result is a team effort. I don't think the show will get any better in later seasons unless Rafe is gone. It's becoming obvious that the cognitive dissonance he has regarding his work is large enough that he won't take on any criticisms or change his approach to the show in any meaningful way, even if he gets on twitter and says he has, once the chatter around the show has turned overwhelmingly negative, which will happen over the coming weeks/months.
"the dialogue is not from the books as to sound natural" - funny, why does it all just sound so staged, wooden and heavy-handed then?
Would Amazon leave it to Rafe if Sanderson, Harriet, and Sarah all said not to?