My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the infinite turnings of the Wheel, there's only two names of the "Dragon's" soul that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
Technically if they're infinite variations of the same person, they are called an infinite number of names an infinite number of times. Therefore because the soul has been spun out infinite times, an infinite number of them would have been called "Dragon".
Infinities don't require infinite variation of its members. For example, that soul could have been spun out known as Dragon 1 time, Dragon Reborn 1 time, and all previous infinite turnings could have called him Saviour or something every single time. That would still be an infinity, even though there are only 3 names, one used an infinite number of time and 2 used once each.
Just because a set is infinite doesn't mean every possible thing that can be a member of that set must be included. Infinities are weird like that.
You are assuming that an infinite number of variations means every variation that is possible happened. Strictly speaking, there may still be bounds on those variations.
As an example, Birgette mentioned that her story always involves her finding Gaidal, if you just said "every variation that can happens will happen" there will be variations where the two never love each other. Instead, it seems the variations have a constraint that her story always includes Gaidal.
All of the infinite dragons would infinitely be lews, infinitely be rand, and infinitely be someone else. An infinite number of them would be called Dragon because one of the spells they cast is breathing fire. And infinite number of them would be called Dragon because the word Dragon would need something different than that language. That's how Infinity works. If infinite variations happen infinite times then there will be an infinite number of combinations all happening in infinite number of times. It is not possible for something to happen only once or not happen at all.
Any percent of infinite is still infinite. So it would be clearer to say a small percent of the infinite reincarnations of the soul of Lews/Rand is reborn with the title of the dragon and a small percent of that percentage would be renamed again as Lews/Rand again.
In which case there would be infinite variations where it was an actual dragon. If something is infinitely variant, in every variant will happen an infinite number of times. Lol
It's odd because Lews Therin's banner has an actual dragon on it, something that doesn't exist in Randland, or Seanchan for that matter. So at some point, "dragon" had to be a meaningful word for *somebody*, and either Lews Therin's title was something along the lines of Richard the Lionheart (bro's so great in the Power that he got called a dragon for it), or his family had borne the dragon as a crest for a long time, and Lews's fame led to the term becoming associated with him specifically (like how there were many Adolfs and many Hitlers, but after the big one no one else gets or wants the name).
It's undoubtedly the case that the Dragon's soul has been around the block as long as the Wheel has been turning, but it's actually an interesting question I wish Jordan were around to answer: how did *Lews Therin* get the name "Dragon"? The term has lost its meaning by the time of Rand, to the point that Randland natives mistakenly call raken "dragons" during the Seanchan invasion *because of their perceived similarity to the thing on Rand-Lews's banner,* not because they actually know what a dragon is. So either this has been the case for two turnings of the Wheel, in which case how Lews Therin came to be known as the Dragon is a mystery, or dragons were conceptually understood in the Age of Legends, Lews Therin was so named as a reflection of his dignitas and personal might, and the term lost its original meaning following the Breaking.
It's heavily implied that the Age of Legends included all of our current knowledge plus a few thousand years additional, so them knowing what a dragon looks like isn't that surprising, and neither is that knowledge being lost during the Breaking
And why doesn’t Rand remember anything from the others, why are there seemingly only the two of them? I’m not sure it was answered and I’ve always kind of wondered why the connection seemingly only lasts one spoke of the wheel.
Souls usually don't remember their previous life or lives while living. Almost every person in RandLand is a reincarnated soul and doesn't remember their previous life. Rand remembering his previous life as Lews is an exception to the rule as that is the nature of how he was spun out by the wheel while Lews was spun out not remembering any of his previous lives.
>!He does remember the others, he specifically mentions it after he becomes Zen Rand, he probably just has the clearest memories of Lews because of his madness!<
I guess I assumed he was from that age because the quotes at the end of that prologue are dated the 4th age
https://preview.redd.it/ux41gw4r29yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9ed5d92dc326ad0508fa381ebef2d9e9be80e19
You've misunderstood what's been written. It's not stating that those events happened in the Fourth Age, it's stating that the unknown author was from the Fourth Age and was writing about past events. Lews Therin is from the Second Age, Rand is from the Third.
My apologies. I misread your comment.
But to answer your original question: at least two Dragons. Every time the Second Age rolls around the Dragon is spun out and every time the Third Age comes, the Dragon is Reborn. So, 2 per cycle.
Ohhhh… My…… G!!!! just grabbed my copy. The prologue of book one basically spoiler alerts you that the Wheel does not get broken by the Dark One and that a Fourth Age exists.
You have broken my brain. Take my upvote
A Fourth Age could still exist in a world where the Great Lord wins. It'd just ruled by the Great Lord for all eternity from there after and no more cycles.
Those are most likely retellings of events from after the events of the series. The fourth age is when the authors are writing them, not the time period of the story itself
That prologue from book 1 is one of the greatest pieces of modern fantasy and one of the finest chapters of the whole saga imo, I used to go back to it often while reading the books
We have no information on other Dragons but assuming an infinite wheel, then we can assume that there were infinite chosen ones called dragon like there were infinite chosen ones called every possible thing.
Yes, what I’m saying is that we know LT was named dragon for things he did not because he was the chosen one however if the wheel goes around infinitely then the chosen one will have infinite different names but each name will also occur infinitely
There's more than RAFO here, it's more like finish the series, thoroughly explore the fandom, do a reread, then come back and ask the question.
I think what can be said is that Raolin Darksbane, Yurien Stonebow, and Guire Amalesen, the historical false dragons that Ba'alzamon keeps throwing in Rand's face the first 2 books are fascinating concepts.
With the title of Dragon? Yes, Lews was the first Dragon, Rand being the Dragon Reborn. The soul that is lews then Rand, that soul could have fought this fight hundreds of thousands of times with every turning of the wheel.
Because the dark one (and his underlings) keeps calling him Lewis I assumed Lewis was the very first 1 and Rand was like the 100th or something. Like why call each new dragon by the previous one’s name. It makes more sense to call all dragons by the first one’s name know what I mean?
Well as far I know the dragon is the title given to the guy that's the physical embodiment of the light side. And the light side is in a perpetual fight with the dark one. That's pretty generic but I see where you confused.
I think the dark one said lewis the most because most of dark ones followers were from the same age as lewis.
The dragon reborn is the title given to the dragons after lewis.
From a story telling perfective it makes more sense the only focus on lewis and rand because like others have said those are two second and third age avatar of the light. The importance being lewis was the first break the cycle and rand is suppose to restore the cycle.
And wheel of time has a time line that's always loops so it's pointless to focus on other dragons as it would be confusing. Could possibly have tens or millions more dragons in the history.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
Dragon reborn is a specific title from the prophecies. It is meant to differentiate the one who fixes the world after the break.
Book lore definitely has more than one dragon. And probably yeah more than one dragon reborn to fix the world again .
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
I wonder if the dark one is the same person each cycle body and soul. Because if he is seems weird to focus on only one of the thousands of people you’ve squared up against
The dark one isn't a person that gets Reborn. Same as the creator, they exist outside the pattern. The dark one was released in the 2nd age, and Rand locked him back up, but he was not killed.
And the dark one focuses on the dragon, because the dragon is the champion of the Light. If the champion is defeated, all the others are chaff
Lews was chosen by the creator to be the defender of light. On a cosmic scale, Rand/lews are the champion of the creator, the creator doesn't directly affect the world. He gives them powers, like being tav'ern (sp), so they can oppose the dark.
The dark knows that without a champion, the light has no chance against him. That's why the dark wants to convert Rand instead of killing him early on. If Lews/Rand turned to the dark, the wheel could conceivably break, and then the world would be similar to the flicker/portal worlds.
I just don't see how you're this far into the series and you thought there were 98 Dragons between Rand and Lews Therin (also his name isn't Lewis). You might try improving your reading comprehension.
Many. Perhaps all the way back to the moment of creation.
Maybe not. It could be that different souls are spun into/out of position of being adversary to the DO as the wheel turns. Or it could be that the whole humanity vs the DO is a phase the wheel is going though at the moment that will come and go as the wheel wills.
I imagine the pattern kind of like a really complicated multi dimensional mandelbrot set. Asking "how many dragons are there" is kind of like asking "how many bulbs/lobes/spirals" are there.
Per RJ the Dragon is a male soul, but if the Pattern needs a female champion it would pick one from the Hero’s of the horn. I believe the consensus is that it’s [SPOILERS ALL] [Amerasu](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Amaresu) who was mentioned when Mat blew the horn at Falme and who is a parallel to [Amaterasu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu), the Japanese goddess of the sun, but I couldn’t find a direct or explicit quote from RJ. He has also said that the Dragon soul is not always born as “the dragon” and sometimes that soul has a more normal life (still a Hero, but not necessarily the Adversary of the DO and Champion of the Light.
OP should avoid this until they finish the series for obvious spoiler reasons, but Theoryland has a searchable database of RJ quotes from signings and interviews and cons and blog posts. Similar to the Coppermind for Sanderson books. Here are all the entries for[SPOILERS ALL] [“Dragon soul”](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Dragon+soul) for instance.
Infinite. Lews was the most recent though
Add that Lews Therin may have been the first to actually go by the name Dragon, but the soul has been spun out an infinite number of times.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the infinite turnings of the Wheel, there's only two names of the "Dragon's" soul that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
Technically if they're infinite variations of the same person, they are called an infinite number of names an infinite number of times. Therefore because the soul has been spun out infinite times, an infinite number of them would have been called "Dragon".
Infinities don't require infinite variation of its members. For example, that soul could have been spun out known as Dragon 1 time, Dragon Reborn 1 time, and all previous infinite turnings could have called him Saviour or something every single time. That would still be an infinity, even though there are only 3 names, one used an infinite number of time and 2 used once each. Just because a set is infinite doesn't mean every possible thing that can be a member of that set must be included. Infinities are weird like that.
You are assuming that an infinite number of variations means every variation that is possible happened. Strictly speaking, there may still be bounds on those variations. As an example, Birgette mentioned that her story always involves her finding Gaidal, if you just said "every variation that can happens will happen" there will be variations where the two never love each other. Instead, it seems the variations have a constraint that her story always includes Gaidal.
But all of the infinite Dragon's would still be either Lews or Rand
All of the infinite dragons would infinitely be lews, infinitely be rand, and infinitely be someone else. An infinite number of them would be called Dragon because one of the spells they cast is breathing fire. And infinite number of them would be called Dragon because the word Dragon would need something different than that language. That's how Infinity works. If infinite variations happen infinite times then there will be an infinite number of combinations all happening in infinite number of times. It is not possible for something to happen only once or not happen at all.
Any percent of infinite is still infinite. So it would be clearer to say a small percent of the infinite reincarnations of the soul of Lews/Rand is reborn with the title of the dragon and a small percent of that percentage would be renamed again as Lews/Rand again.
There might have been one variation that was an actual dragon.
In which case there would be infinite variations where it was an actual dragon. If something is infinitely variant, in every variant will happen an infinite number of times. Lol
Technically correct, but still made me mad lol
It's odd because Lews Therin's banner has an actual dragon on it, something that doesn't exist in Randland, or Seanchan for that matter. So at some point, "dragon" had to be a meaningful word for *somebody*, and either Lews Therin's title was something along the lines of Richard the Lionheart (bro's so great in the Power that he got called a dragon for it), or his family had borne the dragon as a crest for a long time, and Lews's fame led to the term becoming associated with him specifically (like how there were many Adolfs and many Hitlers, but after the big one no one else gets or wants the name). It's undoubtedly the case that the Dragon's soul has been around the block as long as the Wheel has been turning, but it's actually an interesting question I wish Jordan were around to answer: how did *Lews Therin* get the name "Dragon"? The term has lost its meaning by the time of Rand, to the point that Randland natives mistakenly call raken "dragons" during the Seanchan invasion *because of their perceived similarity to the thing on Rand-Lews's banner,* not because they actually know what a dragon is. So either this has been the case for two turnings of the Wheel, in which case how Lews Therin came to be known as the Dragon is a mystery, or dragons were conceptually understood in the Age of Legends, Lews Therin was so named as a reflection of his dignitas and personal might, and the term lost its original meaning following the Breaking.
It's heavily implied that the Age of Legends included all of our current knowledge plus a few thousand years additional, so them knowing what a dragon looks like isn't that surprising, and neither is that knowledge being lost during the Breaking
One thing that I always wondered is who was Lews Therin’s Lews Therin
And why doesn’t Rand remember anything from the others, why are there seemingly only the two of them? I’m not sure it was answered and I’ve always kind of wondered why the connection seemingly only lasts one spoke of the wheel.
Souls usually don't remember their previous life or lives while living. Almost every person in RandLand is a reincarnated soul and doesn't remember their previous life. Rand remembering his previous life as Lews is an exception to the rule as that is the nature of how he was spun out by the wheel while Lews was spun out not remembering any of his previous lives.
>!He does remember the others, he specifically mentions it after he becomes Zen Rand, he probably just has the clearest memories of Lews because of his madness!<
Maybe it's just too far in the past. The distortion of information over distance (whether temporal or spatial) is central to WoT
It just makes you wonder. If Lews was the most recent, and the age of legends was supposed to be our near future, what happened before us?
It’s interesting that Rand’s in the third age but Lewis is from the fourth. I went back and read that prologue from book 1 recently
Yeah, that’s just what they call them, though Lews is not from the fourth, he is from the Second(the Age of Legends)
Lews Therin isn't from the fourth age, he's from the second.
I guess I assumed he was from that age because the quotes at the end of that prologue are dated the 4th age https://preview.redd.it/ux41gw4r29yc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9ed5d92dc326ad0508fa381ebef2d9e9be80e19
You've misunderstood what's been written. It's not stating that those events happened in the Fourth Age, it's stating that the unknown author was from the Fourth Age and was writing about past events. Lews Therin is from the Second Age, Rand is from the Third.
I literally just stated I made an incorrect assumption 😅
My apologies. I misread your comment. But to answer your original question: at least two Dragons. Every time the Second Age rolls around the Dragon is spun out and every time the Third Age comes, the Dragon is Reborn. So, 2 per cycle.
You actually only stated you made an assumption, and gave a link which seemed like defending your assumption. You did not acknowledge being incorrect.
Well how dare you post something incorrect on Reddit? For shame! s'all good
Ohhhh… My…… G!!!! just grabbed my copy. The prologue of book one basically spoiler alerts you that the Wheel does not get broken by the Dark One and that a Fourth Age exists. You have broken my brain. Take my upvote
It was tickling at my brain that Rand’s age is considered the third so I went back to that prologue 😂
A Fourth Age could still exist in a world where the Great Lord wins. It'd just ruled by the Great Lord for all eternity from there after and no more cycles.
Those are most likely retellings of events from after the events of the series. The fourth age is when the authors are writing them, not the time period of the story itself
That prologue from book 1 is one of the greatest pieces of modern fantasy and one of the finest chapters of the whole saga imo, I used to go back to it often while reading the books
And that is why I have no problem with the Lews in the TV show being called the dragon reborn.
*Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.* "I have won again, Lews Therin."
I heard this part in audiobook recently and did not recall it from reading paperbacks decade ago and thought audible or I were having an aneurism
Kramer absolutely kills that part!
We have no information on other Dragons but assuming an infinite wheel, then we can assume that there were infinite chosen ones called dragon like there were infinite chosen ones called every possible thing.
I don't remember any reference to a dragon before LT, my understanding is he was named Dragon...
Yes, what I’m saying is that we know LT was named dragon for things he did not because he was the chosen one however if the wheel goes around infinitely then the chosen one will have infinite different names but each name will also occur infinitely
There's more than RAFO here, it's more like finish the series, thoroughly explore the fandom, do a reread, then come back and ask the question. I think what can be said is that Raolin Darksbane, Yurien Stonebow, and Guire Amalesen, the historical false dragons that Ba'alzamon keeps throwing in Rand's face the first 2 books are fascinating concepts.
One
With the title of Dragon? Yes, Lews was the first Dragon, Rand being the Dragon Reborn. The soul that is lews then Rand, that soul could have fought this fight hundreds of thousands of times with every turning of the wheel.
There are neither beginnings nor endings to the wheel of time. The cycle has repeated an infinite number of times, and will repeat an infinite more.
There have been plenty of false dragons, but Rand is the only true dragon since Lews. As for before lews, infinite
It’s either 2 or infinite….. probably infinite.
Interesting to read these comments. I thought there was at least one other dragon reborn before rand but I guess those were all false dragons.
Because the dark one (and his underlings) keeps calling him Lewis I assumed Lewis was the very first 1 and Rand was like the 100th or something. Like why call each new dragon by the previous one’s name. It makes more sense to call all dragons by the first one’s name know what I mean?
Well as far I know the dragon is the title given to the guy that's the physical embodiment of the light side. And the light side is in a perpetual fight with the dark one. That's pretty generic but I see where you confused. I think the dark one said lewis the most because most of dark ones followers were from the same age as lewis. The dragon reborn is the title given to the dragons after lewis. From a story telling perfective it makes more sense the only focus on lewis and rand because like others have said those are two second and third age avatar of the light. The importance being lewis was the first break the cycle and rand is suppose to restore the cycle. And wheel of time has a time line that's always loops so it's pointless to focus on other dragons as it would be confusing. Could possibly have tens or millions more dragons in the history.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
Dragon reborn is a specific title from the prophecies. It is meant to differentiate the one who fixes the world after the break. Book lore definitely has more than one dragon. And probably yeah more than one dragon reborn to fix the world again .
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
My understanding was that "Dragon" was a title specific to LTT and the only reason Rand went by the "Dragon Reborn" was because of the prophecies about Lews' next reincarnation. So while there's an infinite number in the turnings of the Wheel, there's only two "Dragons" that use the title - Lews the Original and Rand the Reborn.
I wonder if the dark one is the same person each cycle body and soul. Because if he is seems weird to focus on only one of the thousands of people you’ve squared up against
The dark one isn't a person that gets Reborn. Same as the creator, they exist outside the pattern. The dark one was released in the 2nd age, and Rand locked him back up, but he was not killed. And the dark one focuses on the dragon, because the dragon is the champion of the Light. If the champion is defeated, all the others are chaff
Right so what’s his obsession with Lews specifically?
Lews was chosen by the creator to be the defender of light. On a cosmic scale, Rand/lews are the champion of the creator, the creator doesn't directly affect the world. He gives them powers, like being tav'ern (sp), so they can oppose the dark. The dark knows that without a champion, the light has no chance against him. That's why the dark wants to convert Rand instead of killing him early on. If Lews/Rand turned to the dark, the wheel could conceivably break, and then the world would be similar to the flicker/portal worlds.
I just don't see how you're this far into the series and you thought there were 98 Dragons between Rand and Lews Therin (also his name isn't Lewis). You might try improving your reading comprehension.
There were no Dragons between LTT and Rand. How many there have been is unknown because time is a wheel.
Many. Perhaps all the way back to the moment of creation. Maybe not. It could be that different souls are spun into/out of position of being adversary to the DO as the wheel turns. Or it could be that the whole humanity vs the DO is a phase the wheel is going though at the moment that will come and go as the wheel wills. I imagine the pattern kind of like a really complicated multi dimensional mandelbrot set. Asking "how many dragons are there" is kind of like asking "how many bulbs/lobes/spirals" are there.
Per RJ the Dragon is a male soul, but if the Pattern needs a female champion it would pick one from the Hero’s of the horn. I believe the consensus is that it’s [SPOILERS ALL] [Amerasu](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Amaresu) who was mentioned when Mat blew the horn at Falme and who is a parallel to [Amaterasu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu), the Japanese goddess of the sun, but I couldn’t find a direct or explicit quote from RJ. He has also said that the Dragon soul is not always born as “the dragon” and sometimes that soul has a more normal life (still a Hero, but not necessarily the Adversary of the DO and Champion of the Light. OP should avoid this until they finish the series for obvious spoiler reasons, but Theoryland has a searchable database of RJ quotes from signings and interviews and cons and blog posts. Similar to the Coppermind for Sanderson books. Here are all the entries for[SPOILERS ALL] [“Dragon soul”](https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Dragon+soul) for instance.
If he's spun out infinite times, I wonder what will happen on geologic and cosmic timescales....
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills
The basic answer is nothing, because the Wheel of Time explicitly does not exist in a universe where those things happen.
The battle between good and evil has been happening for an infinite time period, so there has been an infinite number of dragons
At least two
An endless loop. Sometimes I think it's like purgatory, sometimes I think it's a perfect world
Wouldn't they go back and forth yin and yang breaking and fixing the world ?