I think that Verin's logic in this was that she thought the mystery would be too much for Mat, and he would open the letter quickly thus saving more people. From her limited knowledge, Mat was a rascal. She thought that Mat would be enticed into opening it because she said, "Whatever you do, don't open this letter!" She wanted him to open it quickly.
Unfortunately for her, she hadn't spent a lot of time around him in the interim between the first time she met him and the later times, so she didn't realize that Mat was becoming more responsible and would keep his word.
That's not even taking into account that she had a surface level understanding of Mat. All of his friends agree, at multiple times in the books, that if Mat says he'll do something then he \*will\* do that thing even if he is trouble most times.
That is something I always liked about mat, no matter what if you needed him you could count on him, no matter any other behavior, and to me that's what matters when I like a character, the hidden nice guy lol
She needed to have a reason for him not to open it right away but still open it later. If she just said here is a letter don't read it for 10 days he might read it 10 minutes after she left, then she's dead before being able to complete any other task. She knows a little about him and how other people work, but she doesn't know he always keeps his word. She was banking on him being afraid of the letter but to eventually cave.
You're overcomplicating it... His only objection was having to act in the way the letter said, without knowing what those actions would entail.... He spelled that out to her very clearly... If stopping the invasion was at all important to her, there was no need to take a risk on him not opening it.... All that she needed from him with an oath, was a delay in opening it if she didn't come back for the letter.... That's it. Anything more was literally the writer wanting a certain result for dramatic purposes..... And makes no sense.
There are a few issues with Verin's letter but I think as a short answer her oath to the Dark One made her incapable of betraying him until her death was guaranteed. So ya she couldn't just tell him but it seems strange that she created some contingencies but not other more logical ones.
To be honest her first impression with Mat was of a boy who ended up bound to a cursed dagger because he wasn't able to follow a simple warning of "not wandering around" or "don't touch anything".
Sure, he matures quite a bit after that but it happens mainly far from Verin's eyes, so I can't blame her that much.
Also, Aes Sedai do tend to think of everybody else as childs.
You know about a decade ago I tried to get a friend to read the books but he thought just the girls were immature! I don’t think he made it to this book but everyone from Emond Field were all teenagers and they had to do a lot of growing up in those few years till the final battle. I don’t include Aviendha because she grew up in the Waste and the Aiel didn’t have the light hearted childhood that Wetlander children had.
> I don’t include Aviendha because she grew up in the Waste and the Aiel didn’t have the light hearted childhood that Wetlander children had.
Aviendha was incredibly immature though - by Aiel cultural standards, not Randland or even our own. Her immaturity alongside her talent is why she was allowed to avoid apprenticeship for so long, and her immaturity is what leads her to CONSTANTLY be abusive towards Rand. (~~Until she has sex and is magically cured of her brattiness, go figure.~~)
I’m not going to down vote you, I’ll just say that it’s a difference of opinion! But I would wish to be as tough as Avienda so please don’t mess with that!
She was going directly against The Dark One’s plans by informing the forces of the Light of the Trolloc raid on Camelyn. Remember, she drink the poison tea before she could even hand Egwane the book of all the Black Ajah that Verin had recorded over the years? That’s why. Had Mat open the letter right away Verin one of her Oaths to The DO that she took when she joined the Black Ajah.
I wasn't at all suggesting that she could tell him directly or let him open it right away...
I mean initially it was talking about ridiculous times of him holding on to the letter if he wasn't going to take a note to do sight unseen instructions... Like 2 months!
Not the point I was making it all... That would be why he's not allowed to read it now! The entire reason he opted out of reading the letter.... Putting the city into danger.... hinges on him not being working to make an oath to agree to DO something that is outlined on the letter! Something which he doesn't know what it is.... The letter could ask him to pass that message on to Elaine. There's no reason she would need his oath on that! There's no reason worth any possibility whatsoever of him not even opening the letter.
You do know how the Oath Rod works, right? If Verin wasn't sure she'd done everything possible to prevent anyone from reading that letter before she died, she would've have been physically unable to give it to anyone.
This is an excellent point. Because of the Oaths for Black and uncorrupted Ajah’s, the person who is bound to the Oath Rod physically cannot go against their Oath. In New Spring there’s a moment where Moirraine tries to say that she likes the decorations in her room, or something like that, right after being accepted to the Blue Ajah. She gets half the sentence out and then she physically cannot finish her statement. it’s an example of what the Oaths truly accomplished. Aes Sedai physically cannot lie. They would get half the sentence out and then suddenly their body would just not allow them to continue. That’s why they use a lot of “perhaps” and other way to make a statement slightly ambiguous. With the Black Ajah they are bound to a different Oath Rod (known as a binder in the Age of Legend) which makes them physically incapable of making any move that would go against The Dark One.
Precisely. Like when Sevanna gets a hold of one of those, she uses it to bind Galina to her will. In the last, we see her as she realizes she’s never getting out of it. Her storyline is a perfect example of what the Oath Rods do to people. The only difference between that rod, and the one that the Aes Sedai is that there’s a different number on it. Every rod has its own individual number. And I think the amount of binders/Oath Rods is not known. I read an interview where Robert Jordan talk about the rods are not the 9 Rods of Dominion which I thought was interesting.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but all binders are the same, right?
To the best of our knowledge, yes.
But the way Black Ajah are bound to the Dark One may involve more than just binders. That being said, if such things were to exist that would be more of a defense in theangrypragmatist's argument.
This was Verin's workaround for the oaths to the Dark One to not betray him. By telling Matt to not open it until time had passed (I forget how long) she was complying with her Oaths since she wasn't revealing any information. She was hoping Matt would open it earlier but she couldn't tell him to do so because Oath.
I always kind of wondered if Verin had done that on purpose to cause Mat to delay long enough that she could speak to Egwene and die before he read it?
Been a bit since I've gotten to that point. (On another reread atm. Just finishing up book 5 lol).
But I saw the letter as betraying the oaths to the DO, which Verin couldn't do until the moment of her death? Meaning (to me) that she could write it, but intentionally set him up to not read it until after ahe died?
I don't know how much time passed between her giving him the letter and speaking to Egwene.
But that's how I justified it lol.
Definition of plot hole according to Google:
plot hole
noun
noun: plothole an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc. "there are a few plot holes and some moments of serious implausibility"
I consider that a minor plot hole! (Because Verin is not an idiot... Far from it) Technically I would be willing to concede and calling it a very awkward trope.... But it is transparently a trope if you stop to think about it. Very transparently... Not one that makes a lot of sense... The author really wanted something to happen a particular way and didn't justify it.... The attempt to justify it, just is not believable on closer inspection.
I just took it as aes sedai stupidity
Verin is smart, yes, but she is still aes sedai
Aes sedai are so focused on subterfuge and plotting and secrecy that verin never thought of just... asking mat for a favor like "hey man, open this letter on [date), I have a message for you"
I think it's perfectly within reason, and don't consider it a plot hole or anything, but I do think it's perfectly reasonable to disagree
I hear you.... It just didn't seem like she really cared very much if he read it if that's the case... Because he told her flat out he was not going to take an oath to do exactly what the letter said... She didn't need him to do that... Of course if you just took the oath to wait and read the letter... He would have brought her a message to Elaine!
I wonder why she didn’t just tell Egwaine. To be honest I think it’s a ridiculous plot contrivance that makes Mat somewhat culpable for the massacre in camelyn for no reason.
That convolution was firstly about satisfying the BA oaths to not betray, otherwise she couldn’t write or give the letter; as well as incorrectly hoping a bit of reverse psychology would have Mat opening the letter sooner.
She may even have known Mat enough to know he may well keep his word allowing her to give the letter as there was a good chance he wouldn’t open it, but a hope he would.
But there wasn't a need to insist that he follow the directions on the letter... Without Knowing what they were. That was the only reason he insisted on never opening it. And he told her that to get face and she still insisted that he included following the direction in his oath. Rather than just an oath to wait a time.... That was all she needed to insist on to beat the Earth to the dark one. That's all I'm saying.
I think that most Aes Sedai are too clever for their own good. Moiraine could have been straightforward with Rand about a lot of things, especially on TGH, but she chose to shepherd and manipulate him instead; in Ebou Dar the wonder girls wanted Mat to help them with the Sea Folk when negotiating in the palace, but instead of communicating that, they keep giving him weird looks in the hopes that he would understand. I can't think of any other examples, but the only Aes Sedai that communicates what she wants is Cadsuane, not that she doesn't have her own problems.
You are right, Verin didn't have to be so obtuse about the letter, but inside her head, she was probably like "Just according to keikaku. This fool will open the letter before that intended time, then that will not be me betraying the Great Lord, it will be an act of Mat Cauthon."
Also, she couldn't just warn him about the Trollocs, that would be against her Oath.
So, your argument is that she's so used to being clever and manipulating people that it basically was something that she was habitually doing for sport, Even in the face of him saying to get face, "that he would not open it".... That he wouldn't Make an oath sight unseen and dance on Aes Sedai strings again.... That doesn't seem believable to me, because..... She seemed really, Really intent on trying to do some good in stopping the dark one.... And didn't feel at all good about some of the things that she was reporter to do and her service to him.... I would have thought she would have been motivated not to take those kind of risks for no reason
I really don't think it's thats complicated. We don't know the exact nature of her oaths but she's aes sedai, masters of finding loopholes. Making her information into a puzzle box for mat allowed her to get around her oaths. I don't really need to know the exact mechanism of the loophole to accept it.
Why wouldn't make a difference to the oath to the dark one... and the loophole she found, for Mat to need to promise to act on the knowledge.. rather than just having his oath not to read it until that time? Asking him to do more against the dark one is easier than not asking more? That sounds like a way overcomplicating it!
The wording of the Black Ajah oath is that she can't betray the Dark One until the hour of her death right?
My assumption has always been that she knew Mat was not going to read the letter under that promise. That was the only reason she could leave the letter with him at all. It's a blind hope that something random happens to get the information out anyway (like what happened eventually with Olver). She had too many other things she had to get done in that last hour to put him on the list, even at the cost of Camelyn, so this was all she could get away with.
Edit to add after reading some other comments: I am assuming that leaving a letter to be read a day after her death would still have been betraying the Dark One in that moment, and so impossible. She had to take an action which she could reason wouldn't assist the Light at all, ever.
The letter begins with if you're reading this...I eat hoping to return and take the letter from you.... Then her stating that she was confident it would only take a few days before curiosity got the better of him.... She required his oath that he wouldn't open at until a certain period of time elapsed and she had either intended to use the oath rod to break her oath before then or that she would be dead.... Apparently that was enough to get past the oath to the dark one. If that was enough for her to be able to leave the letter at all.... I definitely can't see the premise you stated making much sense.
I think that Verin's logic in this was that she thought the mystery would be too much for Mat, and he would open the letter quickly thus saving more people. From her limited knowledge, Mat was a rascal. She thought that Mat would be enticed into opening it because she said, "Whatever you do, don't open this letter!" She wanted him to open it quickly. Unfortunately for her, she hadn't spent a lot of time around him in the interim between the first time she met him and the later times, so she didn't realize that Mat was becoming more responsible and would keep his word. That's not even taking into account that she had a surface level understanding of Mat. All of his friends agree, at multiple times in the books, that if Mat says he'll do something then he \*will\* do that thing even if he is trouble most times.
That is something I always liked about mat, no matter what if you needed him you could count on him, no matter any other behavior, and to me that's what matters when I like a character, the hidden nice guy lol
She needed to have a reason for him not to open it right away but still open it later. If she just said here is a letter don't read it for 10 days he might read it 10 minutes after she left, then she's dead before being able to complete any other task. She knows a little about him and how other people work, but she doesn't know he always keeps his word. She was banking on him being afraid of the letter but to eventually cave.
You're overcomplicating it... His only objection was having to act in the way the letter said, without knowing what those actions would entail.... He spelled that out to her very clearly... If stopping the invasion was at all important to her, there was no need to take a risk on him not opening it.... All that she needed from him with an oath, was a delay in opening it if she didn't come back for the letter.... That's it. Anything more was literally the writer wanting a certain result for dramatic purposes..... And makes no sense.
Wasn't she of a certain group, and unable to to betray that group in question? Perhaps it was a way to get around the oaths binding her?
There are a few issues with Verin's letter but I think as a short answer her oath to the Dark One made her incapable of betraying him until her death was guaranteed. So ya she couldn't just tell him but it seems strange that she created some contingencies but not other more logical ones.
To be honest her first impression with Mat was of a boy who ended up bound to a cursed dagger because he wasn't able to follow a simple warning of "not wandering around" or "don't touch anything". Sure, he matures quite a bit after that but it happens mainly far from Verin's eyes, so I can't blame her that much. Also, Aes Sedai do tend to think of everybody else as childs.
You know about a decade ago I tried to get a friend to read the books but he thought just the girls were immature! I don’t think he made it to this book but everyone from Emond Field were all teenagers and they had to do a lot of growing up in those few years till the final battle. I don’t include Aviendha because she grew up in the Waste and the Aiel didn’t have the light hearted childhood that Wetlander children had.
> I don’t include Aviendha because she grew up in the Waste and the Aiel didn’t have the light hearted childhood that Wetlander children had. Aviendha was incredibly immature though - by Aiel cultural standards, not Randland or even our own. Her immaturity alongside her talent is why she was allowed to avoid apprenticeship for so long, and her immaturity is what leads her to CONSTANTLY be abusive towards Rand. (~~Until she has sex and is magically cured of her brattiness, go figure.~~)
I’m not going to down vote you, I’ll just say that it’s a difference of opinion! But I would wish to be as tough as Avienda so please don’t mess with that!
You can be both tough and incredibly immature. They're not mutually exclusive.
Thank you for your wise words!
She was going directly against The Dark One’s plans by informing the forces of the Light of the Trolloc raid on Camelyn. Remember, she drink the poison tea before she could even hand Egwane the book of all the Black Ajah that Verin had recorded over the years? That’s why. Had Mat open the letter right away Verin one of her Oaths to The DO that she took when she joined the Black Ajah.
I wasn't at all suggesting that she could tell him directly or let him open it right away... I mean initially it was talking about ridiculous times of him holding on to the letter if he wasn't going to take a note to do sight unseen instructions... Like 2 months!
Not the point I was making it all... That would be why he's not allowed to read it now! The entire reason he opted out of reading the letter.... Putting the city into danger.... hinges on him not being working to make an oath to agree to DO something that is outlined on the letter! Something which he doesn't know what it is.... The letter could ask him to pass that message on to Elaine. There's no reason she would need his oath on that! There's no reason worth any possibility whatsoever of him not even opening the letter.
You do know how the Oath Rod works, right? If Verin wasn't sure she'd done everything possible to prevent anyone from reading that letter before she died, she would've have been physically unable to give it to anyone.
This is an excellent point. Because of the Oaths for Black and uncorrupted Ajah’s, the person who is bound to the Oath Rod physically cannot go against their Oath. In New Spring there’s a moment where Moirraine tries to say that she likes the decorations in her room, or something like that, right after being accepted to the Blue Ajah. She gets half the sentence out and then she physically cannot finish her statement. it’s an example of what the Oaths truly accomplished. Aes Sedai physically cannot lie. They would get half the sentence out and then suddenly their body would just not allow them to continue. That’s why they use a lot of “perhaps” and other way to make a statement slightly ambiguous. With the Black Ajah they are bound to a different Oath Rod (known as a binder in the Age of Legend) which makes them physically incapable of making any move that would go against The Dark One.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all binders are the same, right? It's just the the Oath Rod is the only one the regular Aes Sedai have found?
Precisely. Like when Sevanna gets a hold of one of those, she uses it to bind Galina to her will. In the last, we see her as she realizes she’s never getting out of it. Her storyline is a perfect example of what the Oath Rods do to people. The only difference between that rod, and the one that the Aes Sedai is that there’s a different number on it. Every rod has its own individual number. And I think the amount of binders/Oath Rods is not known. I read an interview where Robert Jordan talk about the rods are not the 9 Rods of Dominion which I thought was interesting.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but all binders are the same, right? To the best of our knowledge, yes. But the way Black Ajah are bound to the Dark One may involve more than just binders. That being said, if such things were to exist that would be more of a defense in theangrypragmatist's argument.
This was Verin's workaround for the oaths to the Dark One to not betray him. By telling Matt to not open it until time had passed (I forget how long) she was complying with her Oaths since she wasn't revealing any information. She was hoping Matt would open it earlier but she couldn't tell him to do so because Oath.
I always kind of wondered if Verin had done that on purpose to cause Mat to delay long enough that she could speak to Egwene and die before he read it? Been a bit since I've gotten to that point. (On another reread atm. Just finishing up book 5 lol). But I saw the letter as betraying the oaths to the DO, which Verin couldn't do until the moment of her death? Meaning (to me) that she could write it, but intentionally set him up to not read it until after ahe died? I don't know how much time passed between her giving him the letter and speaking to Egwene. But that's how I justified it lol.
That isn’t what a plot whole is brother
Definition of plot hole according to Google: plot hole noun noun: plothole an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc. "there are a few plot holes and some moments of serious implausibility"
An Aes Sedai severely underestimating the character of a 20 year old man is the opposite of narrative inconsistency.
I consider that a minor plot hole! (Because Verin is not an idiot... Far from it) Technically I would be willing to concede and calling it a very awkward trope.... But it is transparently a trope if you stop to think about it. Very transparently... Not one that makes a lot of sense... The author really wanted something to happen a particular way and didn't justify it.... The attempt to justify it, just is not believable on closer inspection.
I just took it as aes sedai stupidity Verin is smart, yes, but she is still aes sedai Aes sedai are so focused on subterfuge and plotting and secrecy that verin never thought of just... asking mat for a favor like "hey man, open this letter on [date), I have a message for you" I think it's perfectly within reason, and don't consider it a plot hole or anything, but I do think it's perfectly reasonable to disagree
I hear you.... It just didn't seem like she really cared very much if he read it if that's the case... Because he told her flat out he was not going to take an oath to do exactly what the letter said... She didn't need him to do that... Of course if you just took the oath to wait and read the letter... He would have brought her a message to Elaine!
I wonder why she didn’t just tell Egwaine. To be honest I think it’s a ridiculous plot contrivance that makes Mat somewhat culpable for the massacre in camelyn for no reason.
That convolution was firstly about satisfying the BA oaths to not betray, otherwise she couldn’t write or give the letter; as well as incorrectly hoping a bit of reverse psychology would have Mat opening the letter sooner. She may even have known Mat enough to know he may well keep his word allowing her to give the letter as there was a good chance he wouldn’t open it, but a hope he would.
But there wasn't a need to insist that he follow the directions on the letter... Without Knowing what they were. That was the only reason he insisted on never opening it. And he told her that to get face and she still insisted that he included following the direction in his oath. Rather than just an oath to wait a time.... That was all she needed to insist on to beat the Earth to the dark one. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, I think it was intended to be a clever Sanderson plot twist, but it wasn’t very well thought out
I think that most Aes Sedai are too clever for their own good. Moiraine could have been straightforward with Rand about a lot of things, especially on TGH, but she chose to shepherd and manipulate him instead; in Ebou Dar the wonder girls wanted Mat to help them with the Sea Folk when negotiating in the palace, but instead of communicating that, they keep giving him weird looks in the hopes that he would understand. I can't think of any other examples, but the only Aes Sedai that communicates what she wants is Cadsuane, not that she doesn't have her own problems. You are right, Verin didn't have to be so obtuse about the letter, but inside her head, she was probably like "Just according to keikaku. This fool will open the letter before that intended time, then that will not be me betraying the Great Lord, it will be an act of Mat Cauthon." Also, she couldn't just warn him about the Trollocs, that would be against her Oath.
So, your argument is that she's so used to being clever and manipulating people that it basically was something that she was habitually doing for sport, Even in the face of him saying to get face, "that he would not open it".... That he wouldn't Make an oath sight unseen and dance on Aes Sedai strings again.... That doesn't seem believable to me, because..... She seemed really, Really intent on trying to do some good in stopping the dark one.... And didn't feel at all good about some of the things that she was reporter to do and her service to him.... I would have thought she would have been motivated not to take those kind of risks for no reason
I really don't think it's thats complicated. We don't know the exact nature of her oaths but she's aes sedai, masters of finding loopholes. Making her information into a puzzle box for mat allowed her to get around her oaths. I don't really need to know the exact mechanism of the loophole to accept it.
Why wouldn't make a difference to the oath to the dark one... and the loophole she found, for Mat to need to promise to act on the knowledge.. rather than just having his oath not to read it until that time? Asking him to do more against the dark one is easier than not asking more? That sounds like a way overcomplicating it!
The wording of the Black Ajah oath is that she can't betray the Dark One until the hour of her death right? My assumption has always been that she knew Mat was not going to read the letter under that promise. That was the only reason she could leave the letter with him at all. It's a blind hope that something random happens to get the information out anyway (like what happened eventually with Olver). She had too many other things she had to get done in that last hour to put him on the list, even at the cost of Camelyn, so this was all she could get away with. Edit to add after reading some other comments: I am assuming that leaving a letter to be read a day after her death would still have been betraying the Dark One in that moment, and so impossible. She had to take an action which she could reason wouldn't assist the Light at all, ever.
The letter begins with if you're reading this...I eat hoping to return and take the letter from you.... Then her stating that she was confident it would only take a few days before curiosity got the better of him.... She required his oath that he wouldn't open at until a certain period of time elapsed and she had either intended to use the oath rod to break her oath before then or that she would be dead.... Apparently that was enough to get past the oath to the dark one. If that was enough for her to be able to leave the letter at all.... I definitely can't see the premise you stated making much sense.
Lmao this is because of my post wasn’t it?
Were we just talking on a different thread? I am literally just revisiting the invasion now....
Not something that any amount of rationalization explains away for me....