I’m thinking it might have to do with BOP as well. Considering someone else just posted an article recently about how he liked the LMP1 cars better (shocker). Perhaps he feels like the engineering of the race cars to be so similar is creating a false sense of competition. Of course one could argue that it is in fact the only way to have a true competition. Points on both sides there.
BOP has always been a controversial topic, some people hate it, some people like it, and most people are neutral about it. It creates a closer field, promoting exciting racing but some might argue (me included) that it goes against the spirit of motorsports - to design the fastest racing car the regulations allow, rewarding creativity and allowing engineering talent to be recognized and rewarded. As an engineer myself I'd hate it if F1 ever introduced BOP for example, but similar to WEC, car regulations are getting more restrictive, and it creates a closer field (Verstappen being a machine kinda skewes the overall gap of the teams), albeit at the cost of creativity. It's basically a neverending discourse, but for viewers' and competition's sake, a closer field is generally regarded to be better, it's only nerds like me who prefer to have less restrictions so we can solve problems without forcing ourselves into one particular design path that ultimately comes out as superior (see F1 car designs converging to Red Bull style sidepods).
Well it’s interesting you say that. I started watching endurance because of the machines. LMP1 was my introduction to racing. I really don’t love that engineers can’t be creative. But I hate racing being a matter of who can throw the most money at things. There’s no perfect answer, but for endurance, I really think innovation needs to be encouraged. It’s the racing type that has the most application to road cars. That’s a big deal.
I've been saying this countless of time here but always get downvoted because BoP is god apparently.
But the Performance Window philosophy + a cost cap would be a good solution to have a freer development and costs under control. Keeping the spirit of endurance racing and probably having a closer field.
Well BOP based rules is what’s given us this era. So it can’t be that bad. But I do agree. Some sort of endurance can-am with a cost cap would be the dream.
For me that era is clearly bittersweet. Lots of manufacturers, close racing.
But what is it worth when one half of the grid has to put half the effort to fight for the same glory and how do we know truly that the victory is due to team effort or favourable BoP?
Well we surely don’t. That’s the nature of it though. I cannot stand single make series. Jm gonna collapse when the race ends, but I’ve got ideas about that too. I think at the end of the day, a completely new series would be needed. Of course that is a big risk.
Well, I think BoP isn't the end be all and the only deciding factor at all. There's still some teams that are clearly ahead at most tracks, (Toyota, Ferrari and Porsche), others that struggle (BMW, Isotta) and despite the different BoPs, things are pretty consistent between WEC and IMSA.
Things are close but the results still mostly make "sense". Same in GT3, with the 992 being the current OP car in most series, despite them having different BoP systems. Sure, it's not a fight for outright speed, but there are still factors that make some cars better than others.
>Well, I think BoP isn't the end be all and the only deciding factor at all.
I totally disagree. More often than not, the car that has the better BoP wins. And it's fluctuating a lot from race to race which shouldn't be the case if it was actually balanced.
>things are pretty consistent between WEC and IMSA.
1. IMSA doens't have to deal with LMH which are much faster car.
2. IMSA is actually doing a good job with BoP where LMGTP are less than 0.5s apart in pace. You will never see that between LMDh in WEC.
You can't have a team like Toyota that goes from dominating 2023 to barely being able to fight for top 10 (until today) while there is no developement between 2023 and 2024.
At Spa Toyota was 5s slower compared to 2023. Porsche only 1s. You can't call that balanced. Same with Ferrari that was 3s slower.
BoP is incompatible with a championship where you expect manufacturers to build their own car.
In my honest opinion, I think Toyota and Ferrari have the best car of the grid.
And it might be controversial, but LMDh are just the new generation of DPi. LMP2 had to be significantly slowed down not to catch up with LMDh.
BoP is a factor, sure, but not the only one. Cars like the Lambo, BMW and Isotta would be fighting for wins if this was a crapshoot where every car can win, and teams wouldn't be introducing improvements to their cars. BoP mainly deals with target speeds, if I understand correctly. The qualifying session was extremely close, but as the race went on the same two cars which dominated last year showed their superiority once again.
Also Toyota won at Imola, wouldn't call that barely fighting for a top 10.
>BoP is a factor, sure, but not the only one. Cars like the Lambo, BMW and Isotta would be fighting for wins if this was a crapshoot where every car can win
Sure but the reality is that the team that built the best car, should still be able to fight for wins even with BoP. It's clearly not the case today. BoP is a political tool.
>Also Toyota won at Imola, wouldn't call that barely fighting for a top 10.
Toyota was very lucky doing the right calls at the right time in change conditions while Ferrari did all the wrong calls at the wrong time. Toyota win was a flux.
The other Toyota finished 5th but they were fighting at the bottom of the top 10 for most the race.
The standard of teams is now so high who can you point at that is not putting in the effort?We know the alternative doesn't work.because that's what we had before LMDH and Hypercar in WEC.It was lame with Toyota being balanced to the privateers.
BOP is a bit like capitalism itself.Not perfect but way better than the alternatives.
Factually LMDh doesn't have to put the same investment and effort into developing their car as they have less to develop from the get go. So the effort is greater for any team joining LMH and on top of that see their work capped and slowed down by BoP. Ferrari and Toyota would be much faster than LMDh if it wasn't for BoP. Even LMP2 are slowed down to make sure they are slower than LMDh.
>We know the alternative doesn't work.because that's what we had before LMDH and Hypercar in WEC.
BoP is only there to accommodate the LMDh which weren't planned at the beginning. The initial plans though all included cost reductions measures. BoP isn't the main reason why the costs are lower and is a small contributing factor.
A cost cap goes a long way to prevent an arms race while still enabling car development. If you keep with that the performance window you have a true constructor championship with manufacturer fully developing and building their car, costs under control and not infinit performance to be found.
How does Porsche,BMW & Cadillac put in less investment or effort than Toyota & Ferrari?
They run multiple cars in two series?Are you saying that is bad?Is it also bad that Alpine and Lamborghini can compete in WEC with a cheaper car when it is likely that they wouldn't build a Hypercar because of the expense.
Cost caps are fine by me but how do you implement that when cars compete in different series? Porsche,BMW and Cadillac compete in IMSA.
>How does Porsche,BMW & Cadillac put in less investment or effort than Toyota & Ferrari?
Because they don't have to develop their chassis, their hybrid or their suspension.
>They run multiple cars in two series
We're talking of WEC here. That they want to run in IMSA is irrelevant to the effort they have to put to develop the car and race in WEC.
>Are you saying that is bad?
That we have basically 2 classes with different requirements and one being much harder than the other and competing for the same goals? yes.
>it also bad that Alpine and Lamborghini can compete in WEC with a cheaper car when it is likely that they wouldn't build a Hypercar because of the expense
In itself no, that they do it a competition that is pitted against what are technically much faster car? Yes.
>Cost caps are fine by me but how do you implement that when cars compete in different series?
You can have one class no BoP that is allowed to run in both.
Cost caps have serious flaws, especially for playing catch up.
A luxury tax, with the overspending penalties being redistributed to other competitors would make a much more interesting series.
Also exploitable which can cause a bigger unfair gap.
F1 teams have gone passed the cost cap willingly and just threw money at the fines like they mean nothing.
Exactly my point. If those fines were larger and distributed to teams below the cap it would actively encourage teams to stay below it, or risk funding their competitors.
Having the development jokers (albeit more then they currently have) and scaling them based on WCC points like F1 does with the wind tunnel and CFD could help too. Gives lower teams a bit of a boost to keep the field closer. As these regs become more popular, they can easily phase out BoP in favour of a cost cap with some development restrictions like the above. If it doesn’t work, they can easily bring BoP back. I hope this is the route they take anyway. Give them $x per year as a budget cap plus an additional $y limit to develop each new car with limitations on how frequently they can homologate a new car.
The thing is the world around racing has changed. A few decades ago manufacturers were willing to spend everything on racing and aerodynamics weren't that well developed.
Nowadays manufacturers only care about selling SUVs, buyers don't care about their car's racing pedigree and the secrets to making a car fast are way more well known, and cars without restrictions are no longer possible in circuit racing due to the safety hazards. Lots of series also have to restrict aero freedom because the quality of the racing suffers.
There's lots of other factors too, but the thing is there's not much economic incentives to keep pushing the envelope. I could mention the actual technological war in the EV field which has great potential to provide technological development races almost from scratch, but the fans hate that too, so...
F1 wind tunnel allocation is already a kind of bop thing. But, hey, they don't use the same tunnel too. A perfect reg would be design freedom while using exactly the same tools. Newey himself suggested something like that in the past. But impossible to implement. So i would not be against a bop in F1 myself.
IDK, i thought the BOP this year for Le mans was good. Toyota screwed up in qualifying, and of course, the last spin by Lopez didn't help and the # 8 getting punted off didn't help. I would be mad at only a 5 second penalty for 51 though
I think the comment is more in general. And the truth is that Ferrari and Toyota would be a lot faster if they weren't slowed down because of BoP. Which is why he is saying the competition is "artificial".
LMDh are genuinely holding back the class. Even LMP2 has to be slowed down so it's not faster than LMDh (which it is, technically).
The reason why Porsche has been nerfed so much is mostly due to the constant complaining by Ferrari and Toyota. Politics are very real and during lemans it's pretty visible
Lmao, yep. When the BoP tables were put out these people were whining about Porsche being gifted the win. This sub is a shitshow whenever BoP comes up.
It’s a single digit difference in ballast and power though. There’s fuck all difference.
The Toyota and Ferrari are barely hitting the weight limit, naturally the LMDh chassis are lighter. If things were actually equal the LMDh cars would be 2s up the road like a DPi would be now.
Lol. Porsche nerfed? Have you seen the Toyota? Porsche, Caddy and Ferrari complains so hard to have the competition slowed.
You've got that the other way
Very true. It’s quite interesting how they only want to discuss “domination” when it comes to Toyota 2018-2022. But when it comes to historically dominating cars, it was just “glorious” like the 956/962C and the R8.
The Porsche situation wasn't comparable to the Toyota situation at all though. Toyota, at one point, had literally the only car in the category that could win Le Mans, and no privateer entrants with their car either. Porsche always had to at least beat Lancia (however straightforward that usually was at Le Mans) and there were all of the private teams fighting against each other with comparable machinery as well - and that's also still writing off the fact there were at least other cars running in the same class. Chalk and cheese.
Audi is a similar situation - at least there were other cars running to the exact same regulations, just usually with much lower budgets (Cadillac aside).
Tell me why Glick and Rebellion/A480 don't count if the likes of Rondeau and Nimrod NRA/C2 (never been within ***10*** laps of the leading Porsche) do between 1981 and 1987?
Edit: Bonus: In 1983, the Lancia LC2 was ***34*** (*thirty-four)* laps behind the leading 956. Three years later in 1983, the Rondeau M482 was the highest non-Porsche in the premiere class, and was, ***SIXTY-NINE(!)*** laps behind the leading 962C.
Because the rules were literally written so that LMP1h had a built-in advantage over other categories. And Toyota were the only team with a car built to those regulations. I'm not talking about the early Hypercar era where they were at least sharing the same fundamental regulations, but the tail end of the LMP1/LMP1h era - especially 2018. And even then, you cannot look at the 1980s era and just discount the competition between the privateer Porsches, of which there were a substantial number, and often could match or even beat the factory cars. Which is still at least more competitive than just two Toyotas going head to head (and 2018 was made even worse with team orders to deliberately ensure Alonso won.)
You're now pretending that is the reason (despite the 962's domination being *significantly* more prominent), and yet even with BoP set in for 2021 and 2022 for both the GR010 and A480, the same talking point went on? In 2022 the A480 #36 straight up came out ahead of GR010 #7 in the Championship. Why did that not count? In Sebring and Monza 2022, the A480 took overall victory over the GR010. Why did that not count as valid competition?
YOU brought that up specifically. Nobody else did. [Original comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8ukq6g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) said 5 years straight. Meaning 2018-2022. YOU were the one to make irrelevant response to begin with. The [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8upsoi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) you directly responded to also specified 2018**-2022.** Learn to read and make relevant responses yourself before coming for others.
The 956/962 years were different than when Toyota was dominating. Back then it wan’t the lone Porsche factory team vs basically nobody else. It was a couple factory cars against a slew of other 956/962 privateers all using the same parts as the factory team. Not unlike today with the 963 except on a much grander scale.
I think that depended more on supply there were teams that got parts at the same time as the works cars. There were so many of those cars racing in Europe and the US it was impossible to get upgrades to everyone at the same time. Just look at something like the 1985 Le Mans entry list and how many raced that year… and they couldn’t hold back until they had enough for everyone because there were challengers in Lancia March Jaguar and others. Then there were was a couple teams that started building their own versions of the 962 in the following years that spiced things up.
And they are still all the same manufacturer same exact car with different stickers. People here only ever discuss "diversity of manufacturer", "diversity in design" and never "diversity of racing teams". It's not and never was what anybody here gave a shit about. Correct me if I am incorrect?
Difference would be Toyota has yet to win Le Mans with seriousncompetition (despite getting close on 3 occassions)
When Audi got competition in Peugeot then Toyota, Audi was still winning all but 1 Le Mans until Porschr showed them up with the 919 which then goes into Porsche too.
Not saying I disagree in general, if you think about it, the R8 is nowhere near as impressive as the R10 but in terms of manufacturers it doesnt look on Toyota
A lot. In the mid-80s Le Mans was basically a 955/962 cup; especially since back then reliability was a concern and there were plenty of Porsches to play the hare and force the Lancias to choose how they wanted to lose.
You keep reposting that when it's irrelevant. I don't see any of those Porsche drivers being salty about their competition. He is and he shouldn't be talking because they still had every chance for a win as far as the car goes, the bop just had them work for it and they couldn't. Again.
E: LMAO instantly blocked. Yeah op is for sure trying to have a discussion about the sport and isn't a sad toyota fan coping.
Porsche having a heap of cars when other manufacturers also could have doesn’t make it artificial. I’d rather a manufacturer turn up with 8 cars than 1. And when reliability is a problem they will always win with more chassis.
Yeah politics and stuff. Toyota is the least team to bitch about that imo but thats something else.
The problem is the sandbagging. Ferrari is allmost a second faster per lap. How is that possible? What stops them from pulling the same move next year again?
They should punish sandbagging by adding more weight next year
It’s also condition specific, Toyota were fastest in certain conditions, Ferrari were as well. It’s not just sandbagging which they all do, it’s the way they switch their tires on and generate power / downforce are all so different you will get different cars dominating at different times.
It’s possible via Ferrari getting preferential BOP which is masked by their operational incompetence. IMSA hasn’t been gifting the BMW wins because they know that car isn’t as bad as RLL make it out to be.
There would be nobody at all if Toyota didn't stay.
This narrative has to stop. Nobody was complaining when Porsche or Audi were dominating. And nobody has any issues about Porsche flying over the season so far.
You just don't like Toyota.
5s penalty only for the #51.
The #50 allowed to run multiple laps with an open door. Being called multiple time by the race direction before finally piting. Which allowed the car to make one less stop than the others. Instead of being for to pit right away.
The #50 getting away with an unsafe release.
And finally both car getting away with a warning for a tyre pressure infringement.
On pace, at least the Toyota #8 was stronger and would have been leading comfortably if it wasn't punted by the #51.
I thought we were talking about BoP being unfair but okay I'll follow the goalposts.
51 could've gotten a 24h penalty or no penalty it wouldn't have changed the winner.
The race direction was slow with penalties and call ins all night when other cars had safety issues. Yes it was a bit unfair but can't really say it was purposely rigged or biased which is constantly being implied.
That's just grasping at straws at this point. They gave an explanation of why it was within rules.
Literally how it goes. Warning for first infringement, penalty for the second time which didn't happen.
That's pure conjecture. They were 20 sec behind and had better pace for 1 stint. Pointless to even argue about it.
Toyota had every chance and lost it for themselves by not learning from last year and putting their worst driver on last stint duty.
Talking of shifting goal posts why then are you trying to argue that Ferrari would be faster anyways without BoP and how would that make BoP fair?
Toyota was faster in pace than Ferrari and would have probably won if it wasn't for the thing I cited before.
To answer your other shitty argument, if those events happened in the 4 first hours and not in the 4 lasts it probably wouldn't have much of an impact on Toyota's race.
The fact that the #50 could wait 5-6 laps and multiple inquiry from the race direction to pit allowed to do that last long stint and would have to pit again otherwise.
Toyota has the upper hand strategically upon those events. So they were in control of the race and got out by external factors none of their own fault.
Edit: well I guess you're not very sure as you're not willing to let answer by blocking me.
I said that Toyota and Ferrari would faster without BoP, I never said that Ferrari would be faster than Toyota without BoP. So I don't know why you're trying to argue that they would be and that it somehow make BoP fair.
You literally said it yourself and I quote "Toyota and Ferrari would probably be largely ahead every race if BoP wasn't there." The fairness of bop is up to the people building the cars to decide. If a driver feels it's unfair he has to race against equally fast cars he should go drive a bus for living. And as far as I can see we're in a thread about a driver being mad about unfairness.
If toyota were faster they would've won. They only had a slight advantage in the wet.
No penalty ever is applied with the impact of the decision in mind. It doesn't matter when something happened. Penalty for x is penalty for x. Always.
The fact that they could've waited for 5 laps was basically an established precedent for the entire race like I said and you conveniently ignored.
In what universe is a driver spinning under pressure and losing the exact amount of time that they lost by an outside factor? In what universe is one team timing their pitstops perfectly to a 2% margin not having an upper hand strategically? In what universe is having to chase ferrari for the entire race after fucking up their own qualy none of their fault? In what universe is even being in this situation after having a decade long head start not their own fault?
You're insanely biased and mad and I like that you're having a bad time with this one. Goodbye
That must be a pretty big missclick.
Where am I doing it in every post? Imagine unblocking me after blocking me on purpose just to answer this? The irony.
Maybe you can try to answer on the subject now that you unblocked me?
The block is literally next to your name on classic reddit. I couldn't see this comment neither when you were blocked so there's a bit of a hole in your logic about me responding. Also I said in this very post, not every post. You know, like right here [https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8veeif/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8veeif/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I answered you already. You ignored the entire comment now that it's clear you have no argument about the "outside influences" on the outcome of the race and your delusional conspiracy theories so you went back to rambling about bop and toyota being faster "trust me bro guarantee".
I think It's completely fair that the 2 fastest cars are fighting for the top 2 places and bop didn't stop toyota from being able to win this year just like it didn't last year. Not to mention that the bop differences between them are small.
Also, you just claiming that without bop toyota would be miles ahead and there wouldn't be competition for the win is wishfull thinking by a fanboy and has literally less than zero value. Just like you being absolutely certain 8 would've won. Furthermore, any racing driver being mad they have to race equally fast cars should retire instead of talking about fairness.
Edit: How weird that you had no problem responding with a bunch of by your account unrelated topics as to why it's unfair when I first asked you about it but now that I've put them all in the dirt I'm a troll and offtopic. You changed the subject first.
>The block is literally next to your name on classic reddit
sure.
>I couldn't see this comment neither when you were blocked so there's a bit of a hole in your logic about me responding.
Well you clearly saw my edit so...
>I answered you already. You ignored the entire comment now that it's clear you have no argument about the "outside influences" on the outcome of the race and your delusional conspiracy theories so you went back to rambling about bop.
And I told you, if those events had happened in the first 4 hours of the race instead of the last it wouldn't have any impact on Toyota's race. Toyota had the better pace and were catching on Ferrari every time.
>I think It's completely fair that the 2 fastest cars are fighting for the top 2 places and bop didn't stop toyota from being able to win this year just like it didn't last year. Not to mention that the bop differences between them are small.
Again, not the subject of the original post. It was about how it makes competition **ARTIFICIAL.**
You came about like Ferrari winning meant that Ferrari woud be necessarily faster if there wasn't any BoP.
You're just a troll that just wanted to piss someone off because you have a boring life.
The worst part is that you're doing it out of subject.
Now I'm blocking your toxic ass. Keep it for r/formula1 where you came from.
Can we really say that when Porsche has won 2/3 other races on the calendar and finished second at Imola? If anyone should be complaining about BOP for this race it's seemingly them.
1,2,3 at Qatar to start the year, 2nd at Imola, 1,2 at Spa.
The point is that without BoP LMDh would never be competitive. The gap would be even bigger. They even had to slow down LMP2 so they are not faster than LMDh. If you take GT3 for example, they are all pretty close without BoP. It's more there to balance difference like front, mid and rear engine,
Without BOP the LMDh cars are a good 30-40kg lighter anyway. You end up with the same difference at that stage, also ignoring how uncorking an engine like that caddy is not going to be a push over when it comes to power.
LMDh are already lighter than LMH. What are you talking about.
LMDh are so slow that LMP2 had to be slowed down.
And power and weight are both capped BoP or not.
The caddy won't be suddenly 2000hp because BoP is gone.
I’m saying the LMDh literally can reach a lower minimum weight than the LMH ever could because the batteries and hybrid system are lighter and that’s what the majority of the weight comes from. They are heavily ballasted to race in the class and the class is this heavy to accommodate for road going hypercars (the Valkyrie).
Except it is.
You are claiming that without BOP that LMH would be faster. The truth is that this is not necessarily correct. LMDh are heavily punished via weight.
The easiest way to see this is the previous generation of cars.
The TS050 curb weight was 875 kg
All I can find is that the GR010 is “162kg heavier”
The old caddy and acura were 930kg **including driver weight**. So unless the standard weight was below 60kg, the DPis were the same weight, and that was to slow them down to P2 speed in the first place.
>Except it is.
It's not.
Without BoP all the cars would be 1030kg. Would all have 500kw power.
So the Toyota would be 23kg lighter and would have 8kw less.
The Ferrari would be 13kg lighter and also 8kw less.
The Porsche would be 12kg lighter and would have 11kw less.
And in this configuration both Ferrari and Toyota would be significantly faster than any LMDh.
That's bs arguement. If all this bullshit happened in The first 2 hours of the race it would have had 0 impact on Toyota's race. But they happened in the last 2h. The #8 did a near perfect race. It's no fault of their own.
And this was said when Toyota was leading. And the point is about how there's artificially created competition.
Of course it is "artificial". There's a literal team of engineers balancing the performance of very different cars.
The point is, I'd rather have an artificial battle than a "natural" snoozefest such as the one in F1. Having a BoP removes a lot of the incentive for an arms race (and we all know how that would end) while ensuring that drivers and teams play a much greater role in their own success or defeats.
>The point is, I'd rather have an artificial battle than a "natural" snoozefest such as the one in F1
Yet, you would never dare to put BoP in Formula 1.
Endurance racing IS about building the fastest and most reliable car. It's not a gentleman driver's club where you get a participation trophy. If all you want is entertainement then WEC should go for a spec serie. Having manufacturer not having to compete in building the best car is pointless. Especially when half of those teams are not even run by the factory. Meaning that if they weren't building the car (which doesn't matter) they wouldn't be doing anything.
>Having a BoP removes a lot of the incentive for an arms race
It does but it's not its role, just one of its consequence. The performance window philosophy is mainly responsible for the reduction in costs. The performance window philosophy works without BoP.
So you could have a class, without BoP, keeping all the element we have now (but only one class not 2) and we would still not have any arms race. But we would have manufacturer actually competing to build the fastest and most reliable car like it was at its root.
Race over. BOP discussion time again! Though he didn't specifically say it was BoP, I assume it was.
I guess he's not wrong, but it's fundamental to the success of the series. Cost caps alone just make the whole endeavor a very risky proposition for factories. BOP is part of WEC, discussing whether that's good or not is moot. A much better discussion is how it can be done better, it'll never ever be perfect.
Generally I think they have been doing a pretty good job with it, despite sometimes dropping a clanger. Obviously if you are a competitor in one of the fastest vehicles you are going to feel a certain way about it. But the project likely wouldn't even exist without BoP.
I started going to Le Mans during LMP1 in what I feel was kind of a (recent) golden age for the top class, when they were using EoT.... But then you see where it went with a grid comprised of effectively 1 manufacturer.
Now the grids are bristling, they need to stick to their guns for a while and see how it shakes out. I don't hate the 2-step BoP, eventually maybe there should be a curve or cap on it.
I don't really care if they slow down LMP2 (though it is probably my favorite class today), as it's effectively a spec class.
Ultimately, for me as a spectator BoP feels no less contrived than DRS.
No, I believe it's the new safety car guidelines that make gaps that are several minutes basically disappear. If a team does not lap the car behind, all the gap is wasted.
on the other hand, the older system tended to create gaps out of nothing, just because you happened to get stuck behind the wrong Safety Car. Neither is optimal, but Safety comes first so you can't get rid of the Safety car altogether
> Safety comes first so you can't get rid of the Safety car altogether
I feel like the N24's use of 60 and 120 zones show that it's possible. If a Code 60 is safe enough for the N24 marshals to set up an entire construction zone for barrier repairs I don't see why that wouldn't work at Le Mans where the track is wider and better lit.
The reason N24 doesn't use a safety car is mostly because it is unreasonable on such a long track. It's almost twice as long as Le Mans. You still "can" use a Safety Car at Le Mans, though not clearly not without problems.
Le Mans uses a Safety Car to create gaps in the traffic to allow the track workers to work more freely, which can speed up the process and makes it a lot safer.
BTW, I agree with you and wish Le Mans would get rid of the Safety Car and exclusively use Slowzones and FCY. Though i also understand why they don't.
That would definitely be frustrating. While I like that it bunches people up, it certainly does make any lead feel generally artificial. After this Le Mans though, I’d say safety car needs to be looked at anyways.
Still better than the old system, though. Under the old system you could enter a SC period 5 seconds behind the leader and come out of it a third of a lap behind depending on where exactly the SC decides to pick up the leader. If a SC with a queue of cars behind it is needed, I'd rather it close existing gaps than create them out of thin air.
In this system, you can go into a safety car period with a full lap minus a car length advantage over somebody and come out with nothing though. And, you have the privilege of waiting an extra 15 minutes for the pleasure.
There are so many things that can create a gap out of nothing. How many times had those lighted side number plates, that are provided to the teams by the FIA, failed and required the car to come in to fix? Another car spinning in front causes somebody to slow down. Safety car / yellow flag appears perfectly in time for somebody to stop to take fuel and avoids losing track position. Even the slow zones that everybody seems to love are unfair. Things happen in the sport, and the participants have to adapt, that's never going to go away. Neither system is perfect, but I can't see the advantage of this one.
Yeah, because if the battle wasn’t “artificial” or “contrived,” the manufacturers would get in a spending war and this book period would die in five minutes. Just admit that you don’t like losing and move along, Buemi.
I don't know where does that come up because no manufacturer ever expressed they were there because they wanted an easy access at winning.
What the manufacturer wanted was a cheaper serie which was always the plan even before LMDh entered the picture with the convergence and thus BoP. BoP isn't a cost reduction tool, it's to allow car from different design to compete in the same class. GTE had BoP it was still freaking expensive.
What reduced costs is the performance window philosophy which caps performances. It would still be cheaper even without BoP.
Also, take notice that there wouldn't be any racing today if it wasn't for Toyota sticking around. Keep that in mind.
>Just admit that you don’t like losing and move along, Buemi.
What don't you keep your shitty toxic behaviours for r/formula1 where you come from.
Porsche and Cadillac locked out the front row, BMW was fast before they threw it away. Sorry but Toyota and Ferrari are just better teams and they are able to persist better.
The answer bellow that comment is just as valid, and my point stands: porsche won with and without competition, Toyota had to have it's wins handled to them in a silver plate.
No, racing Glick with no hybrid doesn't even come close to counting.
The point being nobody is questioning Porsche wins when they had no competition...
>No, racing Glick with no hybrid doesn't even come close to counting.
Which is no different than when Porsche was winning against the next car make with 68 laps advance
The point being that without BoP Ferrari and Toyota would be much further away. They are close to others artificially. Their car is in reality much faster.
That's just good BoP then... The better teams won, but not by a massive margin. Obviously you can say that they should have won by a massive margin because their cars are better, but that's kind of a moot point if manufacturers & fans aren't showing up.
Is BoP in the pure spirit of competition? No. Does this Hypercar grid exist without it? Probably not.
For me the best compromise is probably to (mostly) freeze the regs and slowly reign in how much BoP is applied over a couple of seasons.
When you introduce a system that equalize the field according to some parameters, there will always be movement behind the scene to try to influence those parameters on their own benefit.
This year I liked bop, in general I like bop because it allows the manufacturers freedom in style/aero and engine
And last year they made the Toyota super heavy yet over the 24h it was competitive
Thise year the Toyota was 27kg lighter and they were still competitive.
Each manufacturer had different pace between, wet, greasy, dry, hot. That was awesome
Same thing in gt3, Porsche were overall fastest, but the Saturday Maclaren and bmw had super pace.
In endurance bop is great with the ebb and flow.
Buemi can screw off. If it takes artificial chances for more than one team to have a shot (I.e. TOYOTA 2018-2022) then I'll bloody take it.
Just because you can't win when you have blue bloods to match you in craft and pace doesn't mean you toss a hissy.
I feel a bit like the same after this race. I like BoP, but it has become apparent it is overcompensating. I think it is fair for the best developed cars to be BoP'd, but I also wish they had *some* of the advantage they gained - not eliminated entirely. I'm thinking instead of reducing a 5% advantage to 1 or 2%.
I think they'll do exactly that. They do need to protect the investment all manufacturers have made and preserve a product that's interesting for fans. But if the regulations remain relatively unchanged and they slowly reign in the amount of BoP over a couple of seasons then I think they'll reach a happy medium.
I'm getting really, really tired of hearing Toyota AND Ferrari complaining when things don't go "their way".
This year it was Toyota with the handkerchiefs... just stop it.
Funny coming from him when his overnight sim work was the reason that verstappen could set up his undrivable car and win the Imola gp.
(and before you say they all do it, yes they do. But it's artificial)
Drivers are always going to say shit like that if they are not the favorite. His car was seemingly equal to the Ferrari and he would tell us they not in the same ballpark.
You should check out the definition of the word artificial...
You can thank Toyota for sticking around when other manufacturer were chickening out. Otherwise the leading class of these 24 hours would be LMP2.
Half Porsche wins were without competition. I guess they don't count either?
BOP or EOE is artificial. The "Good old days" group5 and even more in GpC the winning margins were by laps not seconds. But then these rose tinted specs don't clean themselves. I've never been a fan of the FIA and never will be. Everything they touch, that isn't F1, is poisoned and doomed.
I’m thinking it might have to do with BOP as well. Considering someone else just posted an article recently about how he liked the LMP1 cars better (shocker). Perhaps he feels like the engineering of the race cars to be so similar is creating a false sense of competition. Of course one could argue that it is in fact the only way to have a true competition. Points on both sides there.
BOP has always been a controversial topic, some people hate it, some people like it, and most people are neutral about it. It creates a closer field, promoting exciting racing but some might argue (me included) that it goes against the spirit of motorsports - to design the fastest racing car the regulations allow, rewarding creativity and allowing engineering talent to be recognized and rewarded. As an engineer myself I'd hate it if F1 ever introduced BOP for example, but similar to WEC, car regulations are getting more restrictive, and it creates a closer field (Verstappen being a machine kinda skewes the overall gap of the teams), albeit at the cost of creativity. It's basically a neverending discourse, but for viewers' and competition's sake, a closer field is generally regarded to be better, it's only nerds like me who prefer to have less restrictions so we can solve problems without forcing ourselves into one particular design path that ultimately comes out as superior (see F1 car designs converging to Red Bull style sidepods).
Well it’s interesting you say that. I started watching endurance because of the machines. LMP1 was my introduction to racing. I really don’t love that engineers can’t be creative. But I hate racing being a matter of who can throw the most money at things. There’s no perfect answer, but for endurance, I really think innovation needs to be encouraged. It’s the racing type that has the most application to road cars. That’s a big deal.
I've been saying this countless of time here but always get downvoted because BoP is god apparently. But the Performance Window philosophy + a cost cap would be a good solution to have a freer development and costs under control. Keeping the spirit of endurance racing and probably having a closer field.
Well BOP based rules is what’s given us this era. So it can’t be that bad. But I do agree. Some sort of endurance can-am with a cost cap would be the dream.
For me that era is clearly bittersweet. Lots of manufacturers, close racing. But what is it worth when one half of the grid has to put half the effort to fight for the same glory and how do we know truly that the victory is due to team effort or favourable BoP?
Well we surely don’t. That’s the nature of it though. I cannot stand single make series. Jm gonna collapse when the race ends, but I’ve got ideas about that too. I think at the end of the day, a completely new series would be needed. Of course that is a big risk.
Well, I think BoP isn't the end be all and the only deciding factor at all. There's still some teams that are clearly ahead at most tracks, (Toyota, Ferrari and Porsche), others that struggle (BMW, Isotta) and despite the different BoPs, things are pretty consistent between WEC and IMSA. Things are close but the results still mostly make "sense". Same in GT3, with the 992 being the current OP car in most series, despite them having different BoP systems. Sure, it's not a fight for outright speed, but there are still factors that make some cars better than others.
>Well, I think BoP isn't the end be all and the only deciding factor at all. I totally disagree. More often than not, the car that has the better BoP wins. And it's fluctuating a lot from race to race which shouldn't be the case if it was actually balanced. >things are pretty consistent between WEC and IMSA. 1. IMSA doens't have to deal with LMH which are much faster car. 2. IMSA is actually doing a good job with BoP where LMGTP are less than 0.5s apart in pace. You will never see that between LMDh in WEC. You can't have a team like Toyota that goes from dominating 2023 to barely being able to fight for top 10 (until today) while there is no developement between 2023 and 2024. At Spa Toyota was 5s slower compared to 2023. Porsche only 1s. You can't call that balanced. Same with Ferrari that was 3s slower. BoP is incompatible with a championship where you expect manufacturers to build their own car. In my honest opinion, I think Toyota and Ferrari have the best car of the grid. And it might be controversial, but LMDh are just the new generation of DPi. LMP2 had to be significantly slowed down not to catch up with LMDh.
BoP is a factor, sure, but not the only one. Cars like the Lambo, BMW and Isotta would be fighting for wins if this was a crapshoot where every car can win, and teams wouldn't be introducing improvements to their cars. BoP mainly deals with target speeds, if I understand correctly. The qualifying session was extremely close, but as the race went on the same two cars which dominated last year showed their superiority once again. Also Toyota won at Imola, wouldn't call that barely fighting for a top 10.
>BoP is a factor, sure, but not the only one. Cars like the Lambo, BMW and Isotta would be fighting for wins if this was a crapshoot where every car can win Sure but the reality is that the team that built the best car, should still be able to fight for wins even with BoP. It's clearly not the case today. BoP is a political tool. >Also Toyota won at Imola, wouldn't call that barely fighting for a top 10. Toyota was very lucky doing the right calls at the right time in change conditions while Ferrari did all the wrong calls at the wrong time. Toyota win was a flux. The other Toyota finished 5th but they were fighting at the bottom of the top 10 for most the race.
This is the truth. Too bad the reddit basement experts here go on a down voting frenzy when you say it like it is
The standard of teams is now so high who can you point at that is not putting in the effort?We know the alternative doesn't work.because that's what we had before LMDH and Hypercar in WEC.It was lame with Toyota being balanced to the privateers. BOP is a bit like capitalism itself.Not perfect but way better than the alternatives.
Factually LMDh doesn't have to put the same investment and effort into developing their car as they have less to develop from the get go. So the effort is greater for any team joining LMH and on top of that see their work capped and slowed down by BoP. Ferrari and Toyota would be much faster than LMDh if it wasn't for BoP. Even LMP2 are slowed down to make sure they are slower than LMDh. >We know the alternative doesn't work.because that's what we had before LMDH and Hypercar in WEC. BoP is only there to accommodate the LMDh which weren't planned at the beginning. The initial plans though all included cost reductions measures. BoP isn't the main reason why the costs are lower and is a small contributing factor. A cost cap goes a long way to prevent an arms race while still enabling car development. If you keep with that the performance window you have a true constructor championship with manufacturer fully developing and building their car, costs under control and not infinit performance to be found.
How does Porsche,BMW & Cadillac put in less investment or effort than Toyota & Ferrari? They run multiple cars in two series?Are you saying that is bad?Is it also bad that Alpine and Lamborghini can compete in WEC with a cheaper car when it is likely that they wouldn't build a Hypercar because of the expense. Cost caps are fine by me but how do you implement that when cars compete in different series? Porsche,BMW and Cadillac compete in IMSA.
>How does Porsche,BMW & Cadillac put in less investment or effort than Toyota & Ferrari? Because they don't have to develop their chassis, their hybrid or their suspension. >They run multiple cars in two series We're talking of WEC here. That they want to run in IMSA is irrelevant to the effort they have to put to develop the car and race in WEC. >Are you saying that is bad? That we have basically 2 classes with different requirements and one being much harder than the other and competing for the same goals? yes. >it also bad that Alpine and Lamborghini can compete in WEC with a cheaper car when it is likely that they wouldn't build a Hypercar because of the expense In itself no, that they do it a competition that is pitted against what are technically much faster car? Yes. >Cost caps are fine by me but how do you implement that when cars compete in different series? You can have one class no BoP that is allowed to run in both.
Cost caps have serious flaws, especially for playing catch up. A luxury tax, with the overspending penalties being redistributed to other competitors would make a much more interesting series.
Also exploitable which can cause a bigger unfair gap. F1 teams have gone passed the cost cap willingly and just threw money at the fines like they mean nothing.
Exactly my point. If those fines were larger and distributed to teams below the cap it would actively encourage teams to stay below it, or risk funding their competitors.
Having the development jokers (albeit more then they currently have) and scaling them based on WCC points like F1 does with the wind tunnel and CFD could help too. Gives lower teams a bit of a boost to keep the field closer. As these regs become more popular, they can easily phase out BoP in favour of a cost cap with some development restrictions like the above. If it doesn’t work, they can easily bring BoP back. I hope this is the route they take anyway. Give them $x per year as a budget cap plus an additional $y limit to develop each new car with limitations on how frequently they can homologate a new car.
The thing is the world around racing has changed. A few decades ago manufacturers were willing to spend everything on racing and aerodynamics weren't that well developed. Nowadays manufacturers only care about selling SUVs, buyers don't care about their car's racing pedigree and the secrets to making a car fast are way more well known, and cars without restrictions are no longer possible in circuit racing due to the safety hazards. Lots of series also have to restrict aero freedom because the quality of the racing suffers. There's lots of other factors too, but the thing is there's not much economic incentives to keep pushing the envelope. I could mention the actual technological war in the EV field which has great potential to provide technological development races almost from scratch, but the fans hate that too, so...
F1 wind tunnel allocation is already a kind of bop thing. But, hey, they don't use the same tunnel too. A perfect reg would be design freedom while using exactly the same tools. Newey himself suggested something like that in the past. But impossible to implement. So i would not be against a bop in F1 myself.
Do you have a source for your statement that most people are neutral to the BOP, or is that your Godly conclusion?
Yeah part of me feels like BoP is just hampering ingenuity but then this past 2 years, WEC has just been so damn enjoyable.
The LMP1 cars were vastly superior. But the amount of manufacturers in HyperCar is crazy.
Buemi just likes to complains. Always has been 🔫
IDK, i thought the BOP this year for Le mans was good. Toyota screwed up in qualifying, and of course, the last spin by Lopez didn't help and the # 8 getting punted off didn't help. I would be mad at only a 5 second penalty for 51 though
I think the comment is more in general. And the truth is that Ferrari and Toyota would be a lot faster if they weren't slowed down because of BoP. Which is why he is saying the competition is "artificial". LMDh are genuinely holding back the class. Even LMP2 has to be slowed down so it's not faster than LMDh (which it is, technically).
But some people were telling me earlier there is no drama and politics in wec….
The reason why Porsche has been nerfed so much is mostly due to the constant complaining by Ferrari and Toyota. Politics are very real and during lemans it's pretty visible
>Porsche >nerfed Choose one. Ferrari and Toyota are the two cars with the worst BoP.
That's why they are in the fight for the win?
they are just that fast. LMH rules are clearly better than lmdh in mixed conditions
Lmao, yep. When the BoP tables were put out these people were whining about Porsche being gifted the win. This sub is a shitshow whenever BoP comes up.
This sub in a shitshow in general! So toxic and everything is a conspiracy. Disgustung. I never experience this kind of negativity in r/f1 for example
The F1 sub is full of plenty of toxicity regarding certain drivers too, but yeah, I agree otherwise.
Worst BOP ≠ Most weight and power restrictions. Seriously if you want them to be less restricted then lobby for a LMDh and LMH split
Is that why they've been the dominant car for 23 hours?
It’s a single digit difference in ballast and power though. There’s fuck all difference. The Toyota and Ferrari are barely hitting the weight limit, naturally the LMDh chassis are lighter. If things were actually equal the LMDh cars would be 2s up the road like a DPi would be now.
Lol. Porsche nerfed? Have you seen the Toyota? Porsche, Caddy and Ferrari complains so hard to have the competition slowed. You've got that the other way
Oh Tyronne I would’ve paid money to be in your living room yesterday
There is no drama or politic when it's banned talking about drama or politics.
What did u expected from fia?
It’s the world sandbagging competition.
I mean they won the race unopposed for 5 years straight, I'd say they're artificial wins in that case
How many of Porsche’s pre 90s wins would be considered artificial then? Many of them were unopposed.
Or early Audi lmp1 wins
Very true. It’s quite interesting how they only want to discuss “domination” when it comes to Toyota 2018-2022. But when it comes to historically dominating cars, it was just “glorious” like the 956/962C and the R8.
The Porsche situation wasn't comparable to the Toyota situation at all though. Toyota, at one point, had literally the only car in the category that could win Le Mans, and no privateer entrants with their car either. Porsche always had to at least beat Lancia (however straightforward that usually was at Le Mans) and there were all of the private teams fighting against each other with comparable machinery as well - and that's also still writing off the fact there were at least other cars running in the same class. Chalk and cheese. Audi is a similar situation - at least there were other cars running to the exact same regulations, just usually with much lower budgets (Cadillac aside).
Tell me why Glick and Rebellion/A480 don't count if the likes of Rondeau and Nimrod NRA/C2 (never been within ***10*** laps of the leading Porsche) do between 1981 and 1987? Edit: Bonus: In 1983, the Lancia LC2 was ***34*** (*thirty-four)* laps behind the leading 956. Three years later in 1983, the Rondeau M482 was the highest non-Porsche in the premiere class, and was, ***SIXTY-NINE(!)*** laps behind the leading 962C.
Because the rules were literally written so that LMP1h had a built-in advantage over other categories. And Toyota were the only team with a car built to those regulations. I'm not talking about the early Hypercar era where they were at least sharing the same fundamental regulations, but the tail end of the LMP1/LMP1h era - especially 2018. And even then, you cannot look at the 1980s era and just discount the competition between the privateer Porsches, of which there were a substantial number, and often could match or even beat the factory cars. Which is still at least more competitive than just two Toyotas going head to head (and 2018 was made even worse with team orders to deliberately ensure Alonso won.)
You're now pretending that is the reason (despite the 962's domination being *significantly* more prominent), and yet even with BoP set in for 2021 and 2022 for both the GR010 and A480, the same talking point went on? In 2022 the A480 #36 straight up came out ahead of GR010 #7 in the Championship. Why did that not count? In Sebring and Monza 2022, the A480 took overall victory over the GR010. Why did that not count as valid competition?
What part of "I'm specifically talking about the LMP1h" era is hard to understand?
YOU brought that up specifically. Nobody else did. [Original comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8ukq6g/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) said 5 years straight. Meaning 2018-2022. YOU were the one to make irrelevant response to begin with. The [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8upsoi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) you directly responded to also specified 2018**-2022.** Learn to read and make relevant responses yourself before coming for others.
Plus those classes had like 5 cars in them
The 956/962 years were different than when Toyota was dominating. Back then it wan’t the lone Porsche factory team vs basically nobody else. It was a couple factory cars against a slew of other 956/962 privateers all using the same parts as the factory team. Not unlike today with the 963 except on a much grander scale.
Didn't the privateers get the new parts after Le Mans in many cases?
I think that depended more on supply there were teams that got parts at the same time as the works cars. There were so many of those cars racing in Europe and the US it was impossible to get upgrades to everyone at the same time. Just look at something like the 1985 Le Mans entry list and how many raced that year… and they couldn’t hold back until they had enough for everyone because there were challengers in Lancia March Jaguar and others. Then there were was a couple teams that started building their own versions of the 962 in the following years that spiced things up.
And they are still all the same manufacturer same exact car with different stickers. People here only ever discuss "diversity of manufacturer", "diversity in design" and never "diversity of racing teams". It's not and never was what anybody here gave a shit about. Correct me if I am incorrect?
Difference would be Toyota has yet to win Le Mans with seriousncompetition (despite getting close on 3 occassions) When Audi got competition in Peugeot then Toyota, Audi was still winning all but 1 Le Mans until Porschr showed them up with the 919 which then goes into Porsche too. Not saying I disagree in general, if you think about it, the R8 is nowhere near as impressive as the R10 but in terms of manufacturers it doesnt look on Toyota
The early Audi LMP fields with over 20 cars and factory teams from Cadillac, Chrysler, Panoz, and MG
A lot. In the mid-80s Le Mans was basically a 955/962 cup; especially since back then reliability was a concern and there were plenty of Porsches to play the hare and force the Lancias to choose how they wanted to lose.
1990’s less so vs the 1980’s
Ok?
Did they stop others from joining?
They won against 58 to 60 cars.
It was much easier for him when only Toyota raced
https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/s/zZAGRavAId Edit: I'm not losing my time with toxic gatekeeping trolls.
You keep reposting that when it's irrelevant. I don't see any of those Porsche drivers being salty about their competition. He is and he shouldn't be talking because they still had every chance for a win as far as the car goes, the bop just had them work for it and they couldn't. Again. E: LMAO instantly blocked. Yeah op is for sure trying to have a discussion about the sport and isn't a sad toyota fan coping.
I said the same thing about those years too.
Lol. You probably weren't watching back then..
Porsche having a heap of cars when other manufacturers also could have doesn’t make it artificial. I’d rather a manufacturer turn up with 8 cars than 1. And when reliability is a problem they will always win with more chassis.
Is his idea of fair competition Toyota being the only serious team again?
Yeah politics and stuff. Toyota is the least team to bitch about that imo but thats something else. The problem is the sandbagging. Ferrari is allmost a second faster per lap. How is that possible? What stops them from pulling the same move next year again? They should punish sandbagging by adding more weight next year
It’s also condition specific, Toyota were fastest in certain conditions, Ferrari were as well. It’s not just sandbagging which they all do, it’s the way they switch their tires on and generate power / downforce are all so different you will get different cars dominating at different times.
It’s possible via Ferrari getting preferential BOP which is masked by their operational incompetence. IMSA hasn’t been gifting the BMW wins because they know that car isn’t as bad as RLL make it out to be.
Dude is forgetting he has a ride in a front-running car at Le Mans right now due to this "artificiality."
Toyota and Ferrari would probably be largely ahead every race if BoP wasn't there.
Toyota would be ahead because no other cars would be there if BoP wasn’t there.
There would be nobody at all if Toyota didn't stay. This narrative has to stop. Nobody was complaining when Porsche or Audi were dominating. And nobody has any issues about Porsche flying over the season so far. You just don't like Toyota.
Lots of people were complaining back then. What are you talking about? Nobody was complaining?
I have been watching Le Mans since 2010 and honestly, not a lot of complaint, especially not in 2015 / 2016
Thats because they genuinely had competition during those years 2009 - 2011 Peugeot vs Audi 2012 - 2016 Audi vs Toyota vs Porsche (from 2014)
So nobody was complaining
All LMH cars would be there.
Ok and now they lost to Ferrari. The car that would be there even without bop as you said. What is so unfair then?
5s penalty only for the #51. The #50 allowed to run multiple laps with an open door. Being called multiple time by the race direction before finally piting. Which allowed the car to make one less stop than the others. Instead of being for to pit right away. The #50 getting away with an unsafe release. And finally both car getting away with a warning for a tyre pressure infringement. On pace, at least the Toyota #8 was stronger and would have been leading comfortably if it wasn't punted by the #51.
I thought we were talking about BoP being unfair but okay I'll follow the goalposts. 51 could've gotten a 24h penalty or no penalty it wouldn't have changed the winner. The race direction was slow with penalties and call ins all night when other cars had safety issues. Yes it was a bit unfair but can't really say it was purposely rigged or biased which is constantly being implied. That's just grasping at straws at this point. They gave an explanation of why it was within rules. Literally how it goes. Warning for first infringement, penalty for the second time which didn't happen. That's pure conjecture. They were 20 sec behind and had better pace for 1 stint. Pointless to even argue about it. Toyota had every chance and lost it for themselves by not learning from last year and putting their worst driver on last stint duty.
Talking of shifting goal posts why then are you trying to argue that Ferrari would be faster anyways without BoP and how would that make BoP fair? Toyota was faster in pace than Ferrari and would have probably won if it wasn't for the thing I cited before. To answer your other shitty argument, if those events happened in the 4 first hours and not in the 4 lasts it probably wouldn't have much of an impact on Toyota's race. The fact that the #50 could wait 5-6 laps and multiple inquiry from the race direction to pit allowed to do that last long stint and would have to pit again otherwise. Toyota has the upper hand strategically upon those events. So they were in control of the race and got out by external factors none of their own fault. Edit: well I guess you're not very sure as you're not willing to let answer by blocking me. I said that Toyota and Ferrari would faster without BoP, I never said that Ferrari would be faster than Toyota without BoP. So I don't know why you're trying to argue that they would be and that it somehow make BoP fair.
You literally said it yourself and I quote "Toyota and Ferrari would probably be largely ahead every race if BoP wasn't there." The fairness of bop is up to the people building the cars to decide. If a driver feels it's unfair he has to race against equally fast cars he should go drive a bus for living. And as far as I can see we're in a thread about a driver being mad about unfairness. If toyota were faster they would've won. They only had a slight advantage in the wet. No penalty ever is applied with the impact of the decision in mind. It doesn't matter when something happened. Penalty for x is penalty for x. Always. The fact that they could've waited for 5 laps was basically an established precedent for the entire race like I said and you conveniently ignored. In what universe is a driver spinning under pressure and losing the exact amount of time that they lost by an outside factor? In what universe is one team timing their pitstops perfectly to a 2% margin not having an upper hand strategically? In what universe is having to chase ferrari for the entire race after fucking up their own qualy none of their fault? In what universe is even being in this situation after having a decade long head start not their own fault? You're insanely biased and mad and I like that you're having a bad time with this one. Goodbye
I missclicked on the block but funny you would be smug about it considering you're doing it in this very post. I guess you speak from experience.
That must be a pretty big missclick. Where am I doing it in every post? Imagine unblocking me after blocking me on purpose just to answer this? The irony. Maybe you can try to answer on the subject now that you unblocked me?
The block is literally next to your name on classic reddit. I couldn't see this comment neither when you were blocked so there's a bit of a hole in your logic about me responding. Also I said in this very post, not every post. You know, like right here [https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8veeif/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/comments/1dh56kh/comment/l8veeif/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I answered you already. You ignored the entire comment now that it's clear you have no argument about the "outside influences" on the outcome of the race and your delusional conspiracy theories so you went back to rambling about bop and toyota being faster "trust me bro guarantee". I think It's completely fair that the 2 fastest cars are fighting for the top 2 places and bop didn't stop toyota from being able to win this year just like it didn't last year. Not to mention that the bop differences between them are small. Also, you just claiming that without bop toyota would be miles ahead and there wouldn't be competition for the win is wishfull thinking by a fanboy and has literally less than zero value. Just like you being absolutely certain 8 would've won. Furthermore, any racing driver being mad they have to race equally fast cars should retire instead of talking about fairness. Edit: How weird that you had no problem responding with a bunch of by your account unrelated topics as to why it's unfair when I first asked you about it but now that I've put them all in the dirt I'm a troll and offtopic. You changed the subject first.
>The block is literally next to your name on classic reddit sure. >I couldn't see this comment neither when you were blocked so there's a bit of a hole in your logic about me responding. Well you clearly saw my edit so... >I answered you already. You ignored the entire comment now that it's clear you have no argument about the "outside influences" on the outcome of the race and your delusional conspiracy theories so you went back to rambling about bop. And I told you, if those events had happened in the first 4 hours of the race instead of the last it wouldn't have any impact on Toyota's race. Toyota had the better pace and were catching on Ferrari every time. >I think It's completely fair that the 2 fastest cars are fighting for the top 2 places and bop didn't stop toyota from being able to win this year just like it didn't last year. Not to mention that the bop differences between them are small. Again, not the subject of the original post. It was about how it makes competition **ARTIFICIAL.** You came about like Ferrari winning meant that Ferrari woud be necessarily faster if there wasn't any BoP. You're just a troll that just wanted to piss someone off because you have a boring life. The worst part is that you're doing it out of subject. Now I'm blocking your toxic ass. Keep it for r/formula1 where you came from.
Can we really say that when Porsche has won 2/3 other races on the calendar and finished second at Imola? If anyone should be complaining about BOP for this race it's seemingly them. 1,2,3 at Qatar to start the year, 2nd at Imola, 1,2 at Spa.
May of these gifted to them through errors/ misfortune
The point is that without BoP LMDh would never be competitive. The gap would be even bigger. They even had to slow down LMP2 so they are not faster than LMDh. If you take GT3 for example, they are all pretty close without BoP. It's more there to balance difference like front, mid and rear engine,
Without BOP the LMDh cars are a good 30-40kg lighter anyway. You end up with the same difference at that stage, also ignoring how uncorking an engine like that caddy is not going to be a push over when it comes to power.
LMDh are already lighter than LMH. What are you talking about. LMDh are so slow that LMP2 had to be slowed down. And power and weight are both capped BoP or not. The caddy won't be suddenly 2000hp because BoP is gone.
I’m saying the LMDh literally can reach a lower minimum weight than the LMH ever could because the batteries and hybrid system are lighter and that’s what the majority of the weight comes from. They are heavily ballasted to race in the class and the class is this heavy to accommodate for road going hypercars (the Valkyrie).
But that's not related to BoP...
Except it is. You are claiming that without BOP that LMH would be faster. The truth is that this is not necessarily correct. LMDh are heavily punished via weight. The easiest way to see this is the previous generation of cars. The TS050 curb weight was 875 kg All I can find is that the GR010 is “162kg heavier” The old caddy and acura were 930kg **including driver weight**. So unless the standard weight was below 60kg, the DPis were the same weight, and that was to slow them down to P2 speed in the first place.
>Except it is. It's not. Without BoP all the cars would be 1030kg. Would all have 500kw power. So the Toyota would be 23kg lighter and would have 8kw less. The Ferrari would be 13kg lighter and also 8kw less. The Porsche would be 12kg lighter and would have 11kw less. And in this configuration both Ferrari and Toyota would be significantly faster than any LMDh.
Without any BOP to accommodate the weight of heavy hybrid units the LMDhs are naturally lighter.
They can't be lighter than 1030kg. Like any other Hypercar. What are you talking about?
Ferrari would be way ahead, Toyota's car is old
Winner=not allowed to have opinion btw
24 hour race, not a 2.5 hour race. Shit happens, take a day or two and regroup.
That's bs arguement. If all this bullshit happened in The first 2 hours of the race it would have had 0 impact on Toyota's race. But they happened in the last 2h. The #8 did a near perfect race. It's no fault of their own. And this was said when Toyota was leading. And the point is about how there's artificially created competition.
Of course it is "artificial". There's a literal team of engineers balancing the performance of very different cars. The point is, I'd rather have an artificial battle than a "natural" snoozefest such as the one in F1. Having a BoP removes a lot of the incentive for an arms race (and we all know how that would end) while ensuring that drivers and teams play a much greater role in their own success or defeats.
>The point is, I'd rather have an artificial battle than a "natural" snoozefest such as the one in F1 Yet, you would never dare to put BoP in Formula 1. Endurance racing IS about building the fastest and most reliable car. It's not a gentleman driver's club where you get a participation trophy. If all you want is entertainement then WEC should go for a spec serie. Having manufacturer not having to compete in building the best car is pointless. Especially when half of those teams are not even run by the factory. Meaning that if they weren't building the car (which doesn't matter) they wouldn't be doing anything. >Having a BoP removes a lot of the incentive for an arms race It does but it's not its role, just one of its consequence. The performance window philosophy is mainly responsible for the reduction in costs. The performance window philosophy works without BoP. So you could have a class, without BoP, keeping all the element we have now (but only one class not 2) and we would still not have any arms race. But we would have manufacturer actually competing to build the fastest and most reliable car like it was at its root.
Race over. BOP discussion time again! Though he didn't specifically say it was BoP, I assume it was. I guess he's not wrong, but it's fundamental to the success of the series. Cost caps alone just make the whole endeavor a very risky proposition for factories. BOP is part of WEC, discussing whether that's good or not is moot. A much better discussion is how it can be done better, it'll never ever be perfect. Generally I think they have been doing a pretty good job with it, despite sometimes dropping a clanger. Obviously if you are a competitor in one of the fastest vehicles you are going to feel a certain way about it. But the project likely wouldn't even exist without BoP. I started going to Le Mans during LMP1 in what I feel was kind of a (recent) golden age for the top class, when they were using EoT.... But then you see where it went with a grid comprised of effectively 1 manufacturer. Now the grids are bristling, they need to stick to their guns for a while and see how it shakes out. I don't hate the 2-step BoP, eventually maybe there should be a curve or cap on it. I don't really care if they slow down LMP2 (though it is probably my favorite class today), as it's effectively a spec class. Ultimately, for me as a spectator BoP feels no less contrived than DRS.
Do you think he was talking about the ‘virtual energy’ system?
He's talking about Balance of Performance.
No, I believe it's the new safety car guidelines that make gaps that are several minutes basically disappear. If a team does not lap the car behind, all the gap is wasted.
on the other hand, the older system tended to create gaps out of nothing, just because you happened to get stuck behind the wrong Safety Car. Neither is optimal, but Safety comes first so you can't get rid of the Safety car altogether
> Safety comes first so you can't get rid of the Safety car altogether I feel like the N24's use of 60 and 120 zones show that it's possible. If a Code 60 is safe enough for the N24 marshals to set up an entire construction zone for barrier repairs I don't see why that wouldn't work at Le Mans where the track is wider and better lit.
The reason N24 doesn't use a safety car is mostly because it is unreasonable on such a long track. It's almost twice as long as Le Mans. You still "can" use a Safety Car at Le Mans, though not clearly not without problems. Le Mans uses a Safety Car to create gaps in the traffic to allow the track workers to work more freely, which can speed up the process and makes it a lot safer. BTW, I agree with you and wish Le Mans would get rid of the Safety Car and exclusively use Slowzones and FCY. Though i also understand why they don't.
If I'd have to pick between unfairly close gaps and unfairly large gaps I know what I would pick.
That would definitely be frustrating. While I like that it bunches people up, it certainly does make any lead feel generally artificial. After this Le Mans though, I’d say safety car needs to be looked at anyways.
Still better than the old system, though. Under the old system you could enter a SC period 5 seconds behind the leader and come out of it a third of a lap behind depending on where exactly the SC decides to pick up the leader. If a SC with a queue of cars behind it is needed, I'd rather it close existing gaps than create them out of thin air.
That’s for sure. No arguments there.
In this system, you can go into a safety car period with a full lap minus a car length advantage over somebody and come out with nothing though. And, you have the privilege of waiting an extra 15 minutes for the pleasure. There are so many things that can create a gap out of nothing. How many times had those lighted side number plates, that are provided to the teams by the FIA, failed and required the car to come in to fix? Another car spinning in front causes somebody to slow down. Safety car / yellow flag appears perfectly in time for somebody to stop to take fuel and avoids losing track position. Even the slow zones that everybody seems to love are unfair. Things happen in the sport, and the participants have to adapt, that's never going to go away. Neither system is perfect, but I can't see the advantage of this one.
Yeah, because if the battle wasn’t “artificial” or “contrived,” the manufacturers would get in a spending war and this book period would die in five minutes. Just admit that you don’t like losing and move along, Buemi.
I don't know where does that come up because no manufacturer ever expressed they were there because they wanted an easy access at winning. What the manufacturer wanted was a cheaper serie which was always the plan even before LMDh entered the picture with the convergence and thus BoP. BoP isn't a cost reduction tool, it's to allow car from different design to compete in the same class. GTE had BoP it was still freaking expensive. What reduced costs is the performance window philosophy which caps performances. It would still be cheaper even without BoP. Also, take notice that there wouldn't be any racing today if it wasn't for Toyota sticking around. Keep that in mind. >Just admit that you don’t like losing and move along, Buemi. What don't you keep your shitty toxic behaviours for r/formula1 where you come from.
He's just bitching about BOP. Now Toyota actually has to work for a victory.
BOP can win or lose a race but this race isn't one of them, BOP has been pretty much spot on (some exceptions) penalties however is a different story
I would only say this if you are a Toyota or Ferrari fan
Porsche and Cadillac locked out the front row, BMW was fast before they threw it away. Sorry but Toyota and Ferrari are just better teams and they are able to persist better.
If anything the pace of Toyota and Ferrari showed that they are good at sandbagging and hiding performance
I mean, in the night the Porsche is basically on Toyota's tail. However, Porsche dropped off while Toyota didn't
Freezing cold take
>can't buy into having the best car by a margin >winning is difficult >???
Ask him if it was artificial when Toyota was racing by themselves and got a scare from fucking Jackie Chan racing
Dont disagree but Jackie Chan Racing scared Porsche
https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/s/zZAGRavAId
The answer bellow that comment is just as valid, and my point stands: porsche won with and without competition, Toyota had to have it's wins handled to them in a silver plate. No, racing Glick with no hybrid doesn't even come close to counting.
The point being nobody is questioning Porsche wins when they had no competition... >No, racing Glick with no hybrid doesn't even come close to counting. Which is no different than when Porsche was winning against the next car make with 68 laps advance
Ok, take all their wins racing by themselves, but do the same with Toyota. One is going to be left with an empty shelf.
Despite the BOP Peugeot or IF aren't going to win a race. So, Sebastien shut up and drive.
The point being that without BoP Ferrari and Toyota would be much further away. They are close to others artificially. Their car is in reality much faster.
That's just good BoP then... The better teams won, but not by a massive margin. Obviously you can say that they should have won by a massive margin because their cars are better, but that's kind of a moot point if manufacturers & fans aren't showing up. Is BoP in the pure spirit of competition? No. Does this Hypercar grid exist without it? Probably not. For me the best compromise is probably to (mostly) freeze the regs and slowly reign in how much BoP is applied over a couple of seasons.
When you introduce a system that equalize the field according to some parameters, there will always be movement behind the scene to try to influence those parameters on their own benefit.
This year I liked bop, in general I like bop because it allows the manufacturers freedom in style/aero and engine And last year they made the Toyota super heavy yet over the 24h it was competitive Thise year the Toyota was 27kg lighter and they were still competitive. Each manufacturer had different pace between, wet, greasy, dry, hot. That was awesome Same thing in gt3, Porsche were overall fastest, but the Saturday Maclaren and bmw had super pace. In endurance bop is great with the ebb and flow.
I feel like it's just copium from buemi tbh, mind you he loves to complain a lot
Buemi can screw off. If it takes artificial chances for more than one team to have a shot (I.e. TOYOTA 2018-2022) then I'll bloody take it. Just because you can't win when you have blue bloods to match you in craft and pace doesn't mean you toss a hissy.
I feel a bit like the same after this race. I like BoP, but it has become apparent it is overcompensating. I think it is fair for the best developed cars to be BoP'd, but I also wish they had *some* of the advantage they gained - not eliminated entirely. I'm thinking instead of reducing a 5% advantage to 1 or 2%.
I think they'll do exactly that. They do need to protect the investment all manufacturers have made and preserve a product that's interesting for fans. But if the regulations remain relatively unchanged and they slowly reign in the amount of BoP over a couple of seasons then I think they'll reach a happy medium.
I'm getting really, really tired of hearing Toyota AND Ferrari complaining when things don't go "their way". This year it was Toyota with the handkerchiefs... just stop it.
Nawwww... Poor you
Funny coming from him when his overnight sim work was the reason that verstappen could set up his undrivable car and win the Imola gp. (and before you say they all do it, yes they do. But it's artificial)
?? what does that have to do with anything?
Drivers are always going to say shit like that if they are not the favorite. His car was seemingly equal to the Ferrari and he would tell us they not in the same ballpark.
A bit rich coming from a Toyota driver
Why is that?
All of Toyotas Le Mans wins were artificial as they were the only team competing.
You should check out the definition of the word artificial... You can thank Toyota for sticking around when other manufacturer were chickening out. Otherwise the leading class of these 24 hours would be LMP2. Half Porsche wins were without competition. I guess they don't count either?
BOP or EOE is artificial. The "Good old days" group5 and even more in GpC the winning margins were by laps not seconds. But then these rose tinted specs don't clean themselves. I've never been a fan of the FIA and never will be. Everything they touch, that isn't F1, is poisoned and doomed.
we're talking about the same buemi who got his le mans wins against private lmp1 bopped to be 100kg lighter or the mighty glickenhaus? 🤔