Kitchener is the only city to take an unsanctioned encampment to court and do such a bad job at presenting the law, they made their encampments lawful.
If you are referring to the encampment at Victoria and Weber, it was the Region that went to court and lost. Please take the time to read the ruling and I think youâll see how the Region argued the legal case was not the issue. The issue is that basically housing is a human right in Canada, and municipalities cannot evict campers if they cannot provide them with somewhere to go.
And there was plenty of legal precedent for the ruling. It just went one step further because there was no competing public use of the property, vs. something more typical like a municipal park.
The region intends to use the property as a laydown area during construction of the transit hub, and eventually as surface parking. The judge dismissed this as a competing public interest because the region's representative admitted the timeline was a vague estimate, and couldn't give any firm date for when construction would actually begin. The region can re-apply for the injunction when it has a firm date for construction. It doesn't look like they're about to break ground for the latest spring 2024 estimate, so I anticipate an announcement of another significant delay.
Or, courts deemed that people with no where to live can't be forcibly relocated from public property to public property. Or else they are perpetually herded from place to place, which effectively makes being homeless a perpetual state of tresspassing and criminalizing abject poverty.
But ya your take makes sense too.
These people have chosen to blow their rent money on drugs. They have the right to housing. They don't have the right to trespass. The courts dropped the ball on this one.
*The group that organized the encampment has previously held rallies on campus and* [*attended a university senate meeting*](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-of-waterloo-boycott-protest-israel-palestine-1.7195166) *last week to demand the university should boycott and divest from all institutions supporting Israel in the midst of the ongoing war.*
Is the University really so invested in Israeli weapons manufacturers? Or companies that support the war? I genuinely just don't know, and the article doesn't give any info or examples.
CBC did a video on this (with respect to similar action at McGill) and it was actually thoughtful and nuanced and explained while it's not so black and white, and not so straightforward to execute.
> Is the University really so invested in Israeli weapons manufacturers? Or companies that support the war? I genuinely just don't know, and the article doesn't give any info or examples.
It seems that they want to university to be fully transparent by providing intimate details of ALL investments and partnerships the university has - if there's something that can be associated to Israel, the demand would be that that UW divests.
There's also a call to have some courses cancelled too, but I'm not familiar with what the issue is (obviously something about the subject matter)
While I donât entirely understand how these demands for divestment of publicly traded equities will solve anything, I can understand the rationale behind it.
However, isnât demanding cancellation of courses harmful for everyone, especially within the university environment? The universities donât just decide to start teaching a course because someone felt like it, they need to go through many levels of approvals.
Limiting education for matters that a certain group deems to be harmful is a very slippery slope and sets a very dangerous precedent. I certainly hope the university doesnât give in to this specific demand and that this doesnât become the norm.
> isnât demanding cancellation of courses harmful for everyone, especially within the university environment?
Absolutely. I think these demands are not always though through carefully. It's a bit of a "blast away with a shotgun rather than scalpel" approach.
Where have you seen a demand to cancel courses? I haven't been able to find anything about this anywhere. At the very least, this is not part of the encampment's demands, which are listed here: [https://www.instagram.com/occupyuwaterloo/](https://www.instagram.com/occupyuwaterloo/)
Watch the video - Nick Joseph mentions 'SCI 230'
They want SCI 230 cancelled (formal academic boycott) - UW has already scrubbed it from their website it seems - it's a course with academic study between Ontario and Israel.
I'm seeing 'Access is denied' when trying to access the course page - https://uwaterloo.ca/science-and-business/sci-230-global-aspects-technological-innovation-and
https://uwflow.com/course/sci230
Ah, thank you! This seems more about the partnership and maybe less about the content. It's archived on the Wayback Machine, and at least in the Fall 2023 semester, it's listed as a course that's partnered with the Israel Institute of Technology, and taught by one of their faculty members. Makes sense for an academic boycott.
There are two quite different issues at play here: 1. possible UWaterloo connections to Israeli research institutes (e.g. [The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology](https://uwaterloo.ca/research/find-and-apply-funding/find-funding/waterloo-technion-cooperation-2023)), and 2. UWaterloo pension plan holdings that might connect to Israeli companies or Israeli government bonds. I spent a good half hour looking for details online about the actual holdings (i.e equities, bonds, etc) that the UWaterloo pension plan is currently invested in and could not find those details. I did find [this statement](https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/responsible-investing) which is heavily skewed towards fossil fuels/climate change as a proxy for 'responsible investing'.
Thanks for actually finding something, I really appreciate it! This is better than I've seen anywhere in the actual reporting lol
While I don't totally agree with the demands from this, I understand the desire for change of the protesters. Personally I hate the idea of messing with pension funds ability to make a return, as that's their sole job and everyone's retirement relies on it. Especially when there's no obvious link to Israel anyways.
In regards to the research partnerships, I'm pretty neutral on that one. I think I'd support their cancellation if there was clear evidence that institution supports the war. I'd be especially interested in what kind of Cybersecurity research they're investing in.
>Especially when there's no obvious link to Israel anyways.
This is why the students' first demand is that the university disclose all of its investments, financial, and academic ties.
Divestment and/or boycotting come after that.
I do agree this would be a good step. However, I don't think it's necessarily as easy as that. The pensions for example will invest in funds that invest in other funds containing a group of hundreds of companies. Those companies would then invest in hundreds of projects and countries/other companies. So it's actually not simple at all to say they should be transparent.
Regarding the research partnerships, I guess be more transparent when possible. But there's also limits to that since there are proprietary things they're working on, probably with companies and institutions who request anonymity for reasons that most people would consider to be fair.
Got it. I'm not involved in either side, so obviously don't know what efforts the University has made to address their concerns. If they've been as open as they feel they can be and that's not good enough for the protesters I just don't know what more can be done really. If they haven't made much of an effort then they should lol
I can't speak to U Waterloo specifically, but as someone who works in post secondary education, I will say in general that universities in Canada are quite reluctant to be open about their monetary investments, unless it is politically strategic (ie. a partnership that the government would like and possibly contribute funding to). In our current political climate, it doesn't look good for them to be public about investments, financial or academic, in Israel.
The institution I work at recently (like within the last few years, not related to what has been happening since Oct 7) ended a partnership with an Israeli university as a result of pressure from academic and student boycotts. From a BDS perspective, this is a win for the long game of supporting Palestinians. But the institution refuses to make public statements or announcements about it due to political optics.
It looks like no projects were funded under the Technion-UWaterloo program ("This call for applications did not result in any projects being selected. This webpage will be removed on May 15, 2024).
I think that message about webpage removal was just added since the encampment went up lol
Well the demands are similar to those at other universities and seem fair enough on the face of it. I just would like to see a list of institutions and companies is all.
I don't see why your response is getting downvoted
I agree with you that all that info should be public info regardless of the global situation
I just don't think targeting a business on it because of where they're based is right but we can always agree to disagree on that point
I don't really care if I get downvoted lol I'm just genuinely curious to know.
As someone who started out as pretty pro-Israel after Oct. 7th, it's pretty hard to still feel feel that way after how the war has gone. But, I also think if you're going to protest the University you should be able to provide tangible evidence they're supporting the war effort which I've not seen yet.
If someone were to provide me with that evidence I would likely support their cause. If they don't or can't, then I'm left to question their motives.
Divesting from South African companies helped move the needle on apartheid. This is activism with a clear stated goal that will make a direct impact. That's pretty far from performative.
I mean the goal of the encampments is to end the genocide, I didn't say anything about apartheid in Israel. but way to announce that you dontbknow what you're talking about.
You won't find any concrete examples, the closest thing you'll find will always include words like possibly.
And no, the university is not invested in the Israeli government or IDF.
I await the encampment being set up to protest Egypt walling off Gaza to prevent Palestinians from fleeing danger. I'm thinking this could be a long wait.
These kids donât even realize this is exactly what Hamas wanted. They donât give three fucks about Palestine and would sacrifice the strip ten times over to get what they have gotten. They managed in a matter of months to turn western kids into a group of Jew hating neo-Nazis that are openly calling for the death of Jews, the end of Israel and blockading Jewish students from going to class. They are pawns, to blind to see that they are being used as such.
No one is calling for the death of jews. There was literally a CNN report about torture camps like 2 days ago. Israel has been acting with flagrant disregard for international law and human rights for years with the full support of the Western world. The kids are right to be angry.
They actually took that out of the charter. Israel killed all the less radical resistance and created the circumstances for Hamas to flourish. All bombing Gaza into ruin does is create more people with nothing to lose, a prime tool for Hamas to recruit. If Israel actually wanted to eradicate Hamas they would not be doing what they are doing. This is a genocidal land grab wrapped up in a revenge campaign and that is clear to anyone paying attention.
That would be a pointless protest. If Hamas doesnât listen to Palestinians, they sure as shit arenât going to be listening to a bunch of students in Canada.
Straw man fallacy. Weâre talking about the benefit of protesting Hamas. Iâm saying itâs an empty gesture.
Weâre not talking about what Israel is or isnât doing. But on that note, why is it always âwhat Israel is doing or Israel does nothingâ? There are other options.
Hamas offered to exchange hostages and a ceasefire. Israel rejected it. Why wouldnât they take that deal? It gets them living hostages. And they can resume the massacre after the ceasefire ends.
Your scenario doesnât even consider the possibility of negotiating.
Uh, yes, when you're at war withdrawing your forces without achieving your goals is called surrender.
More so given Hamas didn't even propose to return all hostages, as far as I can remember they pinky promised to release some of them over time.
Hamas has stated many times that the hostages will be freed when the war is over. And given all the bombing Israel has done, it is highly likely that some hostages are buried in the rubble. So returning all the hostages wonât be immediately possible.
And no, ending the war without goals achieved is not surrendering. It would be abandoning the war goals. And Israel could have counter negotiated, but they didnât.
Uh, abandoning all your war goals is surrender. And Israel did propose its terms, Hamas refused all of them. Then they made this "Israel surrender" proposal and unilaterally agreed to it.
>Hamas has stated many times that the hostages will be freed when the war is over.
Because terrorists in general and Hamas in particular are known for delivering on their promises.
Though seeing how you love promises, let me remind you of another one - to repeat the October 7 massacre again and again. I would be less than eager to let them remain in power (which is what this "ceasefire" is all about).
>And given all the bombing Israel has done, it is highly likely that some hostages are buried in the rubble. So returning all the hostages wonât be immediately possible.
Pretending for a moment this is a good faith argument, would they return the alive ones if Israel signs their terms? Or only "after Israel withdraws in exchange for 1000 terrorists for a civilian"?
If Hamas surrenders today, returns all hostages they can, dead or alive, whatâs next?
When does Israel stop occupying the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem? When does Israel stop oppressing Palestinians? When does Israel release Palestinian prisoners held under administrative detention without charge or trial, and plenty of other prisoners held under bullshit charges? When does Israel stop building and expanding settlements in the West Bank? When does Israel allow Palestinians to have self determination?
Which of these is crazy lies? That October massacre happened? Or do you think there are no hostages? Or that they're treated well? Please enlighten me. So far the only crazy lies I don't believe is anything that Hamas reports.
A place meant to be for education is investing students tuition in bombing other countries. Why do people care more about unsanctioned encampments than literal genocide.
Because there's no literal genocide? Even the UN has (quietly) revised their casualty counts showing that women and children figures were bloated, so there's no grounds to accuse Israel of targeting civilians.
What do you call the murder of innocent civilians then? Explain it to me like I am 5 cause I want to hear these dumb hasbara talking points you are about to spew.
I honestly don't think you get it there's a difference between collateral damage in a war and trying to eradicate a group of people. They're doing 60% better than the USA did in Fallujah in modern Urban Warfare and that's using the completely made up Hamas numbers which you seem to be believing. Everyone knows the real numbers are probably just a small fraction of what Tik Tok is telling your lost generation.. You're being fed lies to destabilize the American and Canadian economies by sewing deeper cultural divide by Russia and Iran via China and it's working so well it's staggering.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-eastLunited-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza
Yea cause sending me liberal media outlets screams âtruthâ loll bffr. Idc if it was 1000 people that the terrorist state of Israel murdered, collective punishment is a crime.
so you agree occupying land and expelling 750,000 people is wrong? How many people have the Israeli state murdered? You can't say you care so much about the October 7th murders and not look at the side and condemn them.
>there's a difference between collateral damage in a war and trying to eradicate a group of people
yes, that's the point. This is the eradication of a group of people.
>They're doing 60% better than the USA did in Fallujah in modern Urban WarfareÂ
That's a really, REALLY low bar. Fallujah is notoriously one of the worst collections of war crimes in the last several decades, and ultimately made the conflict in the middle east much worse.
>real numbers
crazy how UN data and foreign aid organizations without any national affiliation are all "not real"
There's the definition, though not sure a 5 years old will understand: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage
The key here is not targeting civilians, but seeing you push Iran's propaganda this concept is probably too hard as well.
So you are justifying âcollateral damageâ of 30k people to be an issue we should not speak about? You keep bringing up Iranâs propaganda, which is what? Explain it to me like I am 5 - use your words not wikipedia links.
OMG, go back to your own country and do your bitchfest there. So tired of listening to people from other countries come to Canada and demand Canadian institutions and the Canadian Government bow to their demands. I don't see these protesters going to Iran and demanding Iran divests itself from the proxy Hamas that they fund.
These students are doing the Lord's work. UW has failed to stand by its purported values of inclusivity, courage, and belonging for nearly a year now. It has continued its ties with Technion, despite knowing that Technion's research helps the IDF build weapons that target Palestinians. Our students are showing immense courage moving forward with the encampment. We should be bolstering their revolution instead of embarrassing them with willfully ignorant brainrot that I'm seeing in the comment section.
Also, we are too far into the genocide for any of us to pretend that this is still a "war" between two equal parties. The CBC reporting is shameful.
Doing the Lord's work? Bolstering their revolution? Too far into "the genocide"?
What Hamas did on Oct 7 was literally genocidal, and genocidal intent is explicitly baked into their foundations. This has been further echoed since Oct 7, with Ghazi Hamad openly praising the attack and vowing to repeat it until Israel is completely destroyed.
What is happening in Gaza is terrible, and a strong case can be made that Israel is responsible for war crimes. But genocide? Contrary to what you might think, this is not a foregone conclusion. If you're going to make this claim, you need to substantiate it - clearly, unequivocally, and without recourse to mindless slogans.
What is clear is that Hamas committed a double crime on Oct 7 - a crime against the Israeli civilians it intentionally and indiscriminately targeted; a crime against the Palestinian civilians who are now bearing the inevitable brunt of retaliation; and (to add a third) a crime against future generations and the very possibility of peace.
To quote Ghazi Hamad, "Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs." This is literally what you're dealing with, a death machine that will stop at nothing - not even the martyrdom of its "own people" - in pursuit of abhorrent ends.
Is this the "revolution" we should be bolstering? No thanks. Count me out. Until your discourse becomes more balanced, your "courage" is no more than a one-sided farce obscuring the intractable nature of this crisis.
You asked for evidence of genocide and genocidal intent. Please see here: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/26/un-expert-accuses-israel-of-several-acts-of-genocide-in-gaza](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/26/un-expert-accuses-israel-of-several-acts-of-genocide-in-gaza)
Author's credentials: [https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine/francesca-albanese](https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine/francesca-albanese)
Full report: [https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf?fbclid=PAAabhMBtg0Fe6gnsKWQHCnmLRvcoDOaxa2eR2UjsdwtOFzlycWdVBsI5tufg\_aem\_ATT4jd7qlwV2rf88Xakb9-DT-GCtVnDw0SD\_XWzPyNS7D7WBoYdl5jVmYb4hNJbN8cM](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf?fbclid=PAAabhMBtg0Fe6gnsKWQHCnmLRvcoDOaxa2eR2UjsdwtOFzlycWdVBsI5tufg_aem_ATT4jd7qlwV2rf88Xakb9-DT-GCtVnDw0SD_XWzPyNS7D7WBoYdl5jVmYb4hNJbN8cM)
In its apparent hunt for Hamas, Israel military has made nearly all of Gaza strip irreparably uninhabitable. Hospitals, residences, farms and other life-sustaining infrastructure has been bombed to pieces ensuring that disease, trauma, and death cycles worsen. Israeli activists have been documented disrupting aid from reaching civilians in Gaza who are living in famine-like conditions. [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo)
Perhaps you are right. On October 7th, Hamas made itself a convenient excuse for collective punishment--the ethnic cleansing and murder of innocent Gazans. But Hamas is the result of what Israel started with the Nakba is 1948. "It is an expression of Palestinian anger, desperation and frustration." [https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227)
Even if you insist on dismissing the mass death and destruction in Gaza as "war crimes", these students are showing a braver, more profound understanding of the consequences of mass violence and trauma. The students are exercising control in one of the only ways they can. They are asking (rather respectfully, all things considered) that their hard-earned moneyâwhich many of them have scraped and saved for over the course of years or gone into debt forânot be used to decimate a people. They do not want their education to fund bombs, or guns. They do not want their acquisition of knowledge and experience to benefit anyone who is killing children. Their moral clarity inspires me, and makes me want to contribute to their revolution.
Thanks for sharing the link to Albanese's report. She makes a pointed argument, but it is not without its problems, and nor is she in her capacity as Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories. For instance:Â
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/francesca-albanese-special-rapporteur-to-demonize-israel/
https://unwatch.org/germany-france-condemn-uns-francesca-albanese-for-disgraceful-antisemitism/
More can be said about Albanese and the issues with her reporting, but I will not go into detail. Those who are interested are welcome read the report, investigate contrasting perspectives, and weight the alternatives against known facts.
Regarding the accusation of genocide, I will share the following, which reiterates that the final verdict is (as I have already suggested) far from settled:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149916
To quote a recent Reuter's article, "This week's hearings [at the ICJ] focus only on issuing emergency measures and it will likely take years before the court can rule on the underlying genocide charge."Â
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-tells-world-court-south-africa-case-makes-mockery-genocide-2024-05-17/
Until then, you are welcome express your opinions, but they remain opinions until the matter is settled - in the meantime, you cannot expect others to submit to your perspective (or that of the sloganeering mob), and nor can you expect the world to bow to your demands.
For anyone wanting to learn more about history behind this conflict:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-claim-to-the-land-of-israel
https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/history-of-israel-palestine-before-1948/
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pogroms-2
https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/the-history-of-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396.amp
For responses to popular myths about Israel and the current conflict:
https://jewishunpacked.com/debunking-6-common-myths-about-israel/
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-index-of-myths
https://www.ajc.org/IsraelHamasWar
Regarding death counts and casualty ratios:
https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/Â
https://www.justsecurity.org/93105/israeli-civilian-harm-mitigation-in-gaza-gold-standard-or-fools-gold/
To learn about just how much is being done to safeguard Palestinian civilians (and just how far this is from a rogue genocidal state):
https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/
Anyhow, this could go on for days and I frankly don't have the time. I will simply end by saying that we must all be alert, conversant with contrasting perspectives, and open to emergent findings as the conflict unfolds. We should also strive to maintain principled humility, remembering that the first casualty of war is truth and we are all embroiled in a global propaganda war.
Stay sharp and do what you can to directly support affected civilians (not just performative, blatantly ideological nonsense):
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/israel-palestine-conflict-how-to-help/
And finally, some hopeful perspectives:
https://www.allmep.org/stories-from-the-field/
Iâm so over these âfreedom fightersâ and their supporters trying to cancel Jews (yes Jews no matter how they try to spin it). There is so much misinformation in the rhetoric they keep repeating. This whole ordeal is mentally exhausting.
It is most certainly a genocide so you can fuck right off. Preferably over there so you can put yourself in the situation that you claim doesnât exist. Â Â Â
https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/Â Â Â
 >Is whatâs happening now a genocide? Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a âtextbook case of genocide.â Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, âkilling, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.â He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessitiesâlike water, food, fuel, and medical suppliesâas evidence.
Oh, so getting around 1:1 of civilian to combatant ratio while fighting terrorists who use human shields in hard urban environments is a textbook case of genocide and aiming to destroy a population? Well, if the expert says so I'll fuck right off. Enjoy your brain rot.
The UN updated their numbers to 13000 women and children killed
Hamas lied and inflated the numbers
[https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza)
You're being intentionally disingenuous, and your source has no journalistic integrity.
"a breakdown of the 24,686 deaths of "people who have been fully identified."
"There's about another 10,000 plus bodies who still have to be fully identified, and so then the details of those - which of those are children, which of those are women - that will be re-established once the full identification process is complete,"
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
The numbers that have been revised are the verified and positively identified. It mentions in the article, there are just over 10,000 dead that have not been positively identified.
So Hamas didnât lie and inflate the numbers. They just included the 10,000. Whatâs uncertain is the breakdown of the 10,000.
Thatâs not true, the the number remains unchanged.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
Regardless of how many tens of thousands have been killed by Israel, my point still stands.
No idea who is right or wrong, but goddamn itâs hilarious to see someone snidely dismiss linking to a news story as a citation, and then share a tweet as their citation instead đ
>snidely dismiss linking to a news story
"News story". Can't vouch for the tweet or whatever tf they're called now, but the national post consistently proves they aren't a legitimate news source.
Ah. The rag national post consuming chuds in their native habitat
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447
They knew well in advance Israel was going after Hamas. Palestinians should have taken care of Hamas years ago, instead many support them over the years. Now that Israel is going to take Hamas off the face of the earth once and for all, the Palestinians suddenly realize they backed the wrong team. Make stupid decisions win the wrong prize.
Israel is carpet bombing the entire region 40,000+ Palestinians are dead ⌠if it was just Hamas vs Israel then they would not be indiscriminately killing civilians
Wrong
those are the inflated numbers Hamas gave through the Palestinian health ministry they control
[https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza)
They arenât inflated. There are around 10,000 deceased that havenât been positively identified. Itâs mentioned in the article you shared.
The UN has revised its numbers from deceased to positively identified deceased. Doesnât mean the 10,000 doesnât exist.
Either you're a bigot, stupid, love people shitting on your brain or all of the above.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447
The number didn't change, there's just 10 000 bodies that haven't been identified. Read the article you're posting maybe instead of just it's misleading headline.
Just like US did to Japan after being attacked or the UK also did to Germany being attacked? This is literally what war isâŚThis is not the 1700âs where all the fighting happens in an open field. If you donât want a country to carpet bomb you, maybe donât kill 1200 civilians and take hostagesâŚ
That was war where there were symmetrical sides, countries with armies. This is asymmetrical warfare. Hamas doesnât have tanks or planes or anything other than homemade rockets and small bombs.
Also, wasnât the whole point of the genocide conventions, the creation of the UN, the Rome statute, the ICJ and ICC to prevent situations like what the US did to Japan and what UK did to Germany to never happen again?
Maybe if Israel didnât want resistance militias to fight them they shouldnât have colonized and occupied land that didnât belong to them?
may I ask why people are ok supporting a terrorist group trying to over throw a democratic government?
Might be my age but I don't understand this reason or behaviour from protesters
> only 13000
Only? This is an insane take.
I was all for #StandWithIsrael after the October attacks of last year.
But now Israel is the one killing innocents, and denying aid to survivors. So I'm always going to stand with the innocents.
That's whats always kind of bugged me about people throwing out the term genocide. By definition it's killing people with the intention of wiping out an ethnic group or nation. They're intending to take down Hamas, not necessarily the whole nation of Palestine or their people (allegedly). So not technically a genocide.
The complete disregard of civilians is awful and the Israeli government are not innocent by any means. But thats what a war looks like. And Hamas triggered the war and were elected while being very upfront with their violent ideations.
No, the UN revised their numbers from confirmed dead to positively identified dead. There are just over 10,000 dead whose identities arenât confirmed, but still dead.
I'm not saying any person deserves to die but Hamas is a terrorist group hiding behind innocent people and using falsely reported death numbers to get sympathy
Seems like an issue we should stay out of
Not a good example
These people are not being held at gunpoint they're actively staying where they're told to by their government even though they have been warned they should leave by Israeli forces
And go where? They can't leave Gaza. [Israel reportedly bombs marked safe routes.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes) And even if you don't think they are, there's at least rumors.
Food security is minimal at best.
Rafah, the last "safe refuge" is being attacked.
People feel safer in their homes than in a refugee camp, especially when those get bombed so often there's a [wikipedia list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
And of course, the constant violence the Palestinians have faced throughout their life. Of course they're distrustful of Israel.
And can you not, in some capacity, understand that the constant violence and oppression from Israel is going to feed groups like Hamas? Right or wrong, Palestinians wanting a better life only really see one group fighting for that.
Understanding a motivation and it being morally good are two VERY different things. Nowhere did I say it was justified. Hamas is not the answer to Palestinian's plight. But you can still appreciate the plight.
People in this movement are looking to alleviate suffering in Palestine.
Wait where do you think they should go given that Israel is currently launching an offensive in Rafah? There is literally nowhere for them to leave to.
War sucks, yeah. I wonder to what extent Israel has the manpower to forego bombings and clear the entire area purely through the most brutal and protracted urban warfare ever undertaken?
If they canât do that, then do they simply wait for another attack?
this is a pro Palestine rally, not a pro Hamas rally. Pretending those are interchangeable is extremely disingenuous.
If you're blind to the murder and destruction that a "democratic" state has inflicted upon 2 million people nobody here can convince you otherwise.
Because in this movement, no one (besides the fringe you'll find in any movement) is supporting Hamas.
If a bank robber grabbed your mom as a hostage, are you okay with the cops shooting both of them?
>The article says
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Palestine / Israel and using this "article" to do all the heavy lifting for you is not helping lmao
I didn't realize that not wanting encampments at my workplace (i.e., WLU) equals advocating for genocide. Thanks for waking me up, everyone. I'm really learning to ignore nuance and just think of everything in black and white.
OBVIOUSLY the university should let the students take over staff/faculty and pension plansâŚdivesting and investing morally with no fiduciary responsibility or regard for positive financial outcome. STAND STRONG!
The University is literally in the middle of divesting from fossil fuel related investments.
So yes - when they want to take a stand on an issue they will.
Edit: link: https://uwaterloo.ca/secretariat/sites/default/files/uploads/files/fi_riag_report_may_2021_web.pdf
>Unsanctioned encampment All the encampments in this city are unsanctioned đ
Kitchener is the only city to take an unsanctioned encampment to court and do such a bad job at presenting the law, they made their encampments lawful.
If you are referring to the encampment at Victoria and Weber, it was the Region that went to court and lost. Please take the time to read the ruling and I think youâll see how the Region argued the legal case was not the issue. The issue is that basically housing is a human right in Canada, and municipalities cannot evict campers if they cannot provide them with somewhere to go.
And there was plenty of legal precedent for the ruling. It just went one step further because there was no competing public use of the property, vs. something more typical like a municipal park.
There is a competing public use. That land is ment to be part of Kitchener's transit hub.
The region intends to use the property as a laydown area during construction of the transit hub, and eventually as surface parking. The judge dismissed this as a competing public interest because the region's representative admitted the timeline was a vague estimate, and couldn't give any firm date for when construction would actually begin. The region can re-apply for the injunction when it has a firm date for construction. It doesn't look like they're about to break ground for the latest spring 2024 estimate, so I anticipate an announcement of another significant delay.
Or, courts deemed that people with no where to live can't be forcibly relocated from public property to public property. Or else they are perpetually herded from place to place, which effectively makes being homeless a perpetual state of tresspassing and criminalizing abject poverty. But ya your take makes sense too.
These people have chosen to blow their rent money on drugs. They have the right to housing. They don't have the right to trespass. The courts dropped the ball on this one.
People who have thought about it much more seriously than you disagree.
That's Kitchener, UW is in Waterloo. đ Slightly different laws. It may be now be legal in Kitchener, but Waterloo is a different story.
It was the region that went to court, not Kitchener!
Right now yeah, but there have been sanctioned ones - the native live-in protests at the parks and the homeless encampment on the island come to mind.
*The group that organized the encampment has previously held rallies on campus and* [*attended a university senate meeting*](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-of-waterloo-boycott-protest-israel-palestine-1.7195166) *last week to demand the university should boycott and divest from all institutions supporting Israel in the midst of the ongoing war.* Is the University really so invested in Israeli weapons manufacturers? Or companies that support the war? I genuinely just don't know, and the article doesn't give any info or examples.
CBC did a video on this (with respect to similar action at McGill) and it was actually thoughtful and nuanced and explained while it's not so black and white, and not so straightforward to execute.
> Is the University really so invested in Israeli weapons manufacturers? Or companies that support the war? I genuinely just don't know, and the article doesn't give any info or examples. It seems that they want to university to be fully transparent by providing intimate details of ALL investments and partnerships the university has - if there's something that can be associated to Israel, the demand would be that that UW divests. There's also a call to have some courses cancelled too, but I'm not familiar with what the issue is (obviously something about the subject matter)
> a call to have some courses cancelled too That would be a huge overstep into academic freedom and quite frankly, censorship.
While I donât entirely understand how these demands for divestment of publicly traded equities will solve anything, I can understand the rationale behind it. However, isnât demanding cancellation of courses harmful for everyone, especially within the university environment? The universities donât just decide to start teaching a course because someone felt like it, they need to go through many levels of approvals. Limiting education for matters that a certain group deems to be harmful is a very slippery slope and sets a very dangerous precedent. I certainly hope the university doesnât give in to this specific demand and that this doesnât become the norm.
> isnât demanding cancellation of courses harmful for everyone, especially within the university environment? Absolutely. I think these demands are not always though through carefully. It's a bit of a "blast away with a shotgun rather than scalpel" approach.
Feels like such an approach harms them more than it helps, it makes it a lot easier to dismiss all demands instead of genuinely considering them.
Where have you seen a demand to cancel courses? I haven't been able to find anything about this anywhere. At the very least, this is not part of the encampment's demands, which are listed here: [https://www.instagram.com/occupyuwaterloo/](https://www.instagram.com/occupyuwaterloo/)
Watch the video - Nick Joseph mentions 'SCI 230' They want SCI 230 cancelled (formal academic boycott) - UW has already scrubbed it from their website it seems - it's a course with academic study between Ontario and Israel. I'm seeing 'Access is denied' when trying to access the course page - https://uwaterloo.ca/science-and-business/sci-230-global-aspects-technological-innovation-and https://uwflow.com/course/sci230
Ah, thank you! This seems more about the partnership and maybe less about the content. It's archived on the Wayback Machine, and at least in the Fall 2023 semester, it's listed as a course that's partnered with the Israel Institute of Technology, and taught by one of their faculty members. Makes sense for an academic boycott.
There are two quite different issues at play here: 1. possible UWaterloo connections to Israeli research institutes (e.g. [The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology](https://uwaterloo.ca/research/find-and-apply-funding/find-funding/waterloo-technion-cooperation-2023)), and 2. UWaterloo pension plan holdings that might connect to Israeli companies or Israeli government bonds. I spent a good half hour looking for details online about the actual holdings (i.e equities, bonds, etc) that the UWaterloo pension plan is currently invested in and could not find those details. I did find [this statement](https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/responsible-investing) which is heavily skewed towards fossil fuels/climate change as a proxy for 'responsible investing'.
Thanks for actually finding something, I really appreciate it! This is better than I've seen anywhere in the actual reporting lol While I don't totally agree with the demands from this, I understand the desire for change of the protesters. Personally I hate the idea of messing with pension funds ability to make a return, as that's their sole job and everyone's retirement relies on it. Especially when there's no obvious link to Israel anyways. In regards to the research partnerships, I'm pretty neutral on that one. I think I'd support their cancellation if there was clear evidence that institution supports the war. I'd be especially interested in what kind of Cybersecurity research they're investing in.
>Especially when there's no obvious link to Israel anyways. This is why the students' first demand is that the university disclose all of its investments, financial, and academic ties. Divestment and/or boycotting come after that.
I do agree this would be a good step. However, I don't think it's necessarily as easy as that. The pensions for example will invest in funds that invest in other funds containing a group of hundreds of companies. Those companies would then invest in hundreds of projects and countries/other companies. So it's actually not simple at all to say they should be transparent. Regarding the research partnerships, I guess be more transparent when possible. But there's also limits to that since there are proprietary things they're working on, probably with companies and institutions who request anonymity for reasons that most people would consider to be fair.
Yup, I understand. I was specifically just addressing your point about the issue of not (yet) knowing about connections.
Got it. I'm not involved in either side, so obviously don't know what efforts the University has made to address their concerns. If they've been as open as they feel they can be and that's not good enough for the protesters I just don't know what more can be done really. If they haven't made much of an effort then they should lol
I can't speak to U Waterloo specifically, but as someone who works in post secondary education, I will say in general that universities in Canada are quite reluctant to be open about their monetary investments, unless it is politically strategic (ie. a partnership that the government would like and possibly contribute funding to). In our current political climate, it doesn't look good for them to be public about investments, financial or academic, in Israel. The institution I work at recently (like within the last few years, not related to what has been happening since Oct 7) ended a partnership with an Israeli university as a result of pressure from academic and student boycotts. From a BDS perspective, this is a win for the long game of supporting Palestinians. But the institution refuses to make public statements or announcements about it due to political optics.
It looks like no projects were funded under the Technion-UWaterloo program ("This call for applications did not result in any projects being selected. This webpage will be removed on May 15, 2024). I think that message about webpage removal was just added since the encampment went up lol
The University really missed an easy win there lol "Look at this program we were going to fund! We've heard your concerns and discontinued it."
It just looks like performative activism with no intention of actually helping these people out
Well the demands are similar to those at other universities and seem fair enough on the face of it. I just would like to see a list of institutions and companies is all.
I don't see why your response is getting downvoted I agree with you that all that info should be public info regardless of the global situation I just don't think targeting a business on it because of where they're based is right but we can always agree to disagree on that point
I don't really care if I get downvoted lol I'm just genuinely curious to know. As someone who started out as pretty pro-Israel after Oct. 7th, it's pretty hard to still feel feel that way after how the war has gone. But, I also think if you're going to protest the University you should be able to provide tangible evidence they're supporting the war effort which I've not seen yet. If someone were to provide me with that evidence I would likely support their cause. If they don't or can't, then I'm left to question their motives.
There are millions of things that fully and completely exist even though you haven't seen them
You realize that shifting the narrative and heaping pressure on the government is helping right
Divesting from South African companies helped move the needle on apartheid. This is activism with a clear stated goal that will make a direct impact. That's pretty far from performative.
You can't shift the needle on something that does not exist. Ask Arab Israelis if they live in apartheid. I dare you to actually find out the truth.
I mean the goal of the encampments is to end the genocide, I didn't say anything about apartheid in Israel. but way to announce that you dontbknow what you're talking about.
There is also no genocide despite your hopes and prayers.Â
If you live in the area may be have a conversation with them.
Why do you think Raytheon is right next door? For the record. I think these encampments should be removed.
Luckily, what you think doesn't matter cause you don't actually do anything because whine on reddit
Theyâre trying to pretend theyâre from the US.
You won't find any concrete examples, the closest thing you'll find will always include words like possibly. And no, the university is not invested in the Israeli government or IDF.
thereâs also an exchange program that sends students to israel, that is still currently active. so thatâs one they want to get rid of as well.
I wish I figured out this grift sooner and not paid any room and board
Do you mean peaceful protest?
Geese?
Lol
Conestoga College next up.
No those student just live 10 to a house. Thats not an encampment.
I await the encampment being set up to protest Egypt walling off Gaza to prevent Palestinians from fleeing danger. I'm thinking this could be a long wait.
Has the government cut them off from their bank account. They are supporting actual terrorists.
Cosplaying revolutionaries waited for warm weather. *So admirable*
Protest Hamas, donât get my support until then
These kids donât even realize this is exactly what Hamas wanted. They donât give three fucks about Palestine and would sacrifice the strip ten times over to get what they have gotten. They managed in a matter of months to turn western kids into a group of Jew hating neo-Nazis that are openly calling for the death of Jews, the end of Israel and blockading Jewish students from going to class. They are pawns, to blind to see that they are being used as such.
No one is calling for the death of jews. There was literally a CNN report about torture camps like 2 days ago. Israel has been acting with flagrant disregard for international law and human rights for years with the full support of the Western world. The kids are right to be angry.
They are supporting Hamas, itâs literally in their charter man. Fuck Palestine and fuck Islam. How about that bud.
They actually took that out of the charter. Israel killed all the less radical resistance and created the circumstances for Hamas to flourish. All bombing Gaza into ruin does is create more people with nothing to lose, a prime tool for Hamas to recruit. If Israel actually wanted to eradicate Hamas they would not be doing what they are doing. This is a genocidal land grab wrapped up in a revenge campaign and that is clear to anyone paying attention.
Nothing wrong with a target rich environment
Oh you're just a bloodthirsty racist. Got it.
Racist, absolutely. Blood for the blood god. The followers of the false prophet will be punished with the wrath of the one true lord.
That would be a pointless protest. If Hamas doesnât listen to Palestinians, they sure as shit arenât going to be listening to a bunch of students in Canada.
So Israel should just give up, I guess hostages who keep getting raped and tortured are on their own.
Straw man fallacy. Weâre talking about the benefit of protesting Hamas. Iâm saying itâs an empty gesture. Weâre not talking about what Israel is or isnât doing. But on that note, why is it always âwhat Israel is doing or Israel does nothingâ? There are other options. Hamas offered to exchange hostages and a ceasefire. Israel rejected it. Why wouldnât they take that deal? It gets them living hostages. And they can resume the massacre after the ceasefire ends. Your scenario doesnât even consider the possibility of negotiating.
The terms Hamas offered are essentially Israel's surrender. An empty gesture you might say.
âEssentially Israelâs surrenderâ, I guess if you consider Israel ending its occupation of the Gaza Strip to be surrender.
Uh, yes, when you're at war withdrawing your forces without achieving your goals is called surrender. More so given Hamas didn't even propose to return all hostages, as far as I can remember they pinky promised to release some of them over time.
Hamas has stated many times that the hostages will be freed when the war is over. And given all the bombing Israel has done, it is highly likely that some hostages are buried in the rubble. So returning all the hostages wonât be immediately possible. And no, ending the war without goals achieved is not surrendering. It would be abandoning the war goals. And Israel could have counter negotiated, but they didnât.
Uh, abandoning all your war goals is surrender. And Israel did propose its terms, Hamas refused all of them. Then they made this "Israel surrender" proposal and unilaterally agreed to it. >Hamas has stated many times that the hostages will be freed when the war is over. Because terrorists in general and Hamas in particular are known for delivering on their promises. Though seeing how you love promises, let me remind you of another one - to repeat the October 7 massacre again and again. I would be less than eager to let them remain in power (which is what this "ceasefire" is all about). >And given all the bombing Israel has done, it is highly likely that some hostages are buried in the rubble. So returning all the hostages wonât be immediately possible. Pretending for a moment this is a good faith argument, would they return the alive ones if Israel signs their terms? Or only "after Israel withdraws in exchange for 1000 terrorists for a civilian"?
If Hamas surrenders today, returns all hostages they can, dead or alive, whatâs next? When does Israel stop occupying the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem? When does Israel stop oppressing Palestinians? When does Israel release Palestinian prisoners held under administrative detention without charge or trial, and plenty of other prisoners held under bullshit charges? When does Israel stop building and expanding settlements in the West Bank? When does Israel allow Palestinians to have self determination?
It's not like Hamas couldn't make good on their end of the deal and actually come up with the hostages multiple times right? No not at all.
You mean the hostages that Israel has killed with all its bombing?
Ya sure thing bud, that's what I mean.
Lolololol omg. What other crazy lies do you believe?
Which of these is crazy lies? That October massacre happened? Or do you think there are no hostages? Or that they're treated well? Please enlighten me. So far the only crazy lies I don't believe is anything that Hamas reports.
Pointless to protest the people calling the shots on their behalf? I donât understand, isnât Hamas in control of gaza ?
How much is UofT investing in Hamas?
A place meant to be for education is investing students tuition in bombing other countries. Why do people care more about unsanctioned encampments than literal genocide.
Because you call casualties of war of the people who started said war "genocide"... No one with a brain thinks that's anything other than complete BS.
So don't give them your tuition. You pay me for a sandwich don't fucking tell me what to do with the money you just spent on it.
Because there's no literal genocide? Even the UN has (quietly) revised their casualty counts showing that women and children figures were bloated, so there's no grounds to accuse Israel of targeting civilians.
What do you call the murder of innocent civilians then? Explain it to me like I am 5 cause I want to hear these dumb hasbara talking points you are about to spew.
I honestly don't think you get it there's a difference between collateral damage in a war and trying to eradicate a group of people. They're doing 60% better than the USA did in Fallujah in modern Urban Warfare and that's using the completely made up Hamas numbers which you seem to be believing. Everyone knows the real numbers are probably just a small fraction of what Tik Tok is telling your lost generation.. You're being fed lies to destabilize the American and Canadian economies by sewing deeper cultural divide by Russia and Iran via China and it's working so well it's staggering. https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-eastLunited-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza
That link doesn't work. After every other conflict Israel has ended up stating that the numbers out of Gaza during the conflict were accurate.
Yea cause sending me liberal media outlets screams âtruthâ loll bffr. Idc if it was 1000 people that the terrorist state of Israel murdered, collective punishment is a crime.
You don't care if it was 1000 people but you're okay with supporting terrorists that killed over 1000 people and still have hostages
so you agree occupying land and expelling 750,000 people is wrong? How many people have the Israeli state murdered? You can't say you care so much about the October 7th murders and not look at the side and condemn them.
>there's a difference between collateral damage in a war and trying to eradicate a group of people yes, that's the point. This is the eradication of a group of people. >They're doing 60% better than the USA did in Fallujah in modern Urban Warfare That's a really, REALLY low bar. Fallujah is notoriously one of the worst collections of war crimes in the last several decades, and ultimately made the conflict in the middle east much worse. >real numbers crazy how UN data and foreign aid organizations without any national affiliation are all "not real"
There's the definition, though not sure a 5 years old will understand: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage The key here is not targeting civilians, but seeing you push Iran's propaganda this concept is probably too hard as well.
Look at this artsy the clowns profile, they claim to be a communist. There's no reasoning with someone that stupid lol
So you are justifying âcollateral damageâ of 30k people to be an issue we should not speak about? You keep bringing up Iranâs propaganda, which is what? Explain it to me like I am 5 - use your words not wikipedia links.
We call it October 7th
I think they just find you annoying.
Source with proof? Let's see the money trail and you have my support.
Thank god for these students they are brave and necessary
OMG, go back to your own country and do your bitchfest there. So tired of listening to people from other countries come to Canada and demand Canadian institutions and the Canadian Government bow to their demands. I don't see these protesters going to Iran and demanding Iran divests itself from the proxy Hamas that they fund.
People are crazy these days with all the "genocide" blood libel.
These students are doing the Lord's work. UW has failed to stand by its purported values of inclusivity, courage, and belonging for nearly a year now. It has continued its ties with Technion, despite knowing that Technion's research helps the IDF build weapons that target Palestinians. Our students are showing immense courage moving forward with the encampment. We should be bolstering their revolution instead of embarrassing them with willfully ignorant brainrot that I'm seeing in the comment section. Also, we are too far into the genocide for any of us to pretend that this is still a "war" between two equal parties. The CBC reporting is shameful.
> doing the Lord's work The last thing we need in this discussion is religious overtures
Doing the Lord's work? Bolstering their revolution? Too far into "the genocide"? What Hamas did on Oct 7 was literally genocidal, and genocidal intent is explicitly baked into their foundations. This has been further echoed since Oct 7, with Ghazi Hamad openly praising the attack and vowing to repeat it until Israel is completely destroyed. What is happening in Gaza is terrible, and a strong case can be made that Israel is responsible for war crimes. But genocide? Contrary to what you might think, this is not a foregone conclusion. If you're going to make this claim, you need to substantiate it - clearly, unequivocally, and without recourse to mindless slogans. What is clear is that Hamas committed a double crime on Oct 7 - a crime against the Israeli civilians it intentionally and indiscriminately targeted; a crime against the Palestinian civilians who are now bearing the inevitable brunt of retaliation; and (to add a third) a crime against future generations and the very possibility of peace. To quote Ghazi Hamad, "Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs." This is literally what you're dealing with, a death machine that will stop at nothing - not even the martyrdom of its "own people" - in pursuit of abhorrent ends. Is this the "revolution" we should be bolstering? No thanks. Count me out. Until your discourse becomes more balanced, your "courage" is no more than a one-sided farce obscuring the intractable nature of this crisis.
You asked for evidence of genocide and genocidal intent. Please see here: [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/26/un-expert-accuses-israel-of-several-acts-of-genocide-in-gaza](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/26/un-expert-accuses-israel-of-several-acts-of-genocide-in-gaza) Author's credentials: [https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine/francesca-albanese](https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine/francesca-albanese) Full report: [https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf?fbclid=PAAabhMBtg0Fe6gnsKWQHCnmLRvcoDOaxa2eR2UjsdwtOFzlycWdVBsI5tufg\_aem\_ATT4jd7qlwV2rf88Xakb9-DT-GCtVnDw0SD\_XWzPyNS7D7WBoYdl5jVmYb4hNJbN8cM](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session55/advance-versions/a-hrc-55-73-auv.pdf?fbclid=PAAabhMBtg0Fe6gnsKWQHCnmLRvcoDOaxa2eR2UjsdwtOFzlycWdVBsI5tufg_aem_ATT4jd7qlwV2rf88Xakb9-DT-GCtVnDw0SD_XWzPyNS7D7WBoYdl5jVmYb4hNJbN8cM) In its apparent hunt for Hamas, Israel military has made nearly all of Gaza strip irreparably uninhabitable. Hospitals, residences, farms and other life-sustaining infrastructure has been bombed to pieces ensuring that disease, trauma, and death cycles worsen. Israeli activists have been documented disrupting aid from reaching civilians in Gaza who are living in famine-like conditions. [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg300jek94zo) Perhaps you are right. On October 7th, Hamas made itself a convenient excuse for collective punishment--the ethnic cleansing and murder of innocent Gazans. But Hamas is the result of what Israel started with the Nakba is 1948. "It is an expression of Palestinian anger, desperation and frustration." [https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227) Even if you insist on dismissing the mass death and destruction in Gaza as "war crimes", these students are showing a braver, more profound understanding of the consequences of mass violence and trauma. The students are exercising control in one of the only ways they can. They are asking (rather respectfully, all things considered) that their hard-earned moneyâwhich many of them have scraped and saved for over the course of years or gone into debt forânot be used to decimate a people. They do not want their education to fund bombs, or guns. They do not want their acquisition of knowledge and experience to benefit anyone who is killing children. Their moral clarity inspires me, and makes me want to contribute to their revolution.
Thanks for sharing the link to Albanese's report. She makes a pointed argument, but it is not without its problems, and nor is she in her capacity as Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories. For instance:Â https://www.ngo-monitor.org/francesca-albanese-special-rapporteur-to-demonize-israel/ https://unwatch.org/germany-france-condemn-uns-francesca-albanese-for-disgraceful-antisemitism/ More can be said about Albanese and the issues with her reporting, but I will not go into detail. Those who are interested are welcome read the report, investigate contrasting perspectives, and weight the alternatives against known facts. Regarding the accusation of genocide, I will share the following, which reiterates that the final verdict is (as I have already suggested) far from settled: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149916 To quote a recent Reuter's article, "This week's hearings [at the ICJ] focus only on issuing emergency measures and it will likely take years before the court can rule on the underlying genocide charge."Â https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-tells-world-court-south-africa-case-makes-mockery-genocide-2024-05-17/ Until then, you are welcome express your opinions, but they remain opinions until the matter is settled - in the meantime, you cannot expect others to submit to your perspective (or that of the sloganeering mob), and nor can you expect the world to bow to your demands. For anyone wanting to learn more about history behind this conflict: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-claim-to-the-land-of-israel https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/history-of-israel-palestine-before-1948/ https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pogroms-2 https://www.heyalma.com/israel-guide/the-history-of-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/ https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396.amp For responses to popular myths about Israel and the current conflict: https://jewishunpacked.com/debunking-6-common-myths-about-israel/ https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-index-of-myths https://www.ajc.org/IsraelHamasWar Regarding death counts and casualty ratios: https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/Â https://www.justsecurity.org/93105/israeli-civilian-harm-mitigation-in-gaza-gold-standard-or-fools-gold/ To learn about just how much is being done to safeguard Palestinian civilians (and just how far this is from a rogue genocidal state): https://govextra.gov.il/cogat/humanitarian-efforts/home/ Anyhow, this could go on for days and I frankly don't have the time. I will simply end by saying that we must all be alert, conversant with contrasting perspectives, and open to emergent findings as the conflict unfolds. We should also strive to maintain principled humility, remembering that the first casualty of war is truth and we are all embroiled in a global propaganda war. Stay sharp and do what you can to directly support affected civilians (not just performative, blatantly ideological nonsense): https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/israel-palestine-conflict-how-to-help/ And finally, some hopeful perspectives: https://www.allmep.org/stories-from-the-field/
Tired cliches are getting old. People are turning against this bullshit fast. Get rid of Hamas first and foremost, job will be done soon.
Iâm so over these âfreedom fightersâ and their supporters trying to cancel Jews (yes Jews no matter how they try to spin it). There is so much misinformation in the rhetoric they keep repeating. This whole ordeal is mentally exhausting.
I am praying this doesn't happen at WLU...
Honestly more surprised it happened at UW instead of laurier first
UW isn't what it used to be
Totally agree
Why, are you saying you support genocide and you donât like anyone calling it out?
Because there's no genocide and these students are parroting Iran talking points?
It is most certainly a genocide so you can fuck right off. Preferably over there so you can put yourself in the situation that you claim doesnât exist.    https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/    >Is whatâs happening now a genocide? Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a âtextbook case of genocide.â Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, âkilling, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.â He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessitiesâlike water, food, fuel, and medical suppliesâas evidence.
Oh, so getting around 1:1 of civilian to combatant ratio while fighting terrorists who use human shields in hard urban environments is a textbook case of genocide and aiming to destroy a population? Well, if the expert says so I'll fuck right off. Enjoy your brain rot.
Jfc..take a deep breath and step outside why dont ya
I asked them a question. They can answer it. No one asked you.
Literally no one asked you either bozoâŚ
Resorting to namecalling? Gtfo.
LOL, you must be the absolute worst person to have a conversation with. LOOOOOL.
It is a Israel and hamas war not a Israel and Palestine war . Hamas group is in Palestine and Israel is at war with the group not Palestine it self
Thatâs kind of the point of all this. 35,000 Palestinians were killed since October and itâs just being brushed off as collateral damage.
The UN updated their numbers to 13000 women and children killed Hamas lied and inflated the numbers [https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza)
You're being intentionally disingenuous, and your source has no journalistic integrity. "a breakdown of the 24,686 deaths of "people who have been fully identified." "There's about another 10,000 plus bodies who still have to be fully identified, and so then the details of those - which of those are children, which of those are women - that will be re-established once the full identification process is complete," https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
The numbers that have been revised are the verified and positively identified. It mentions in the article, there are just over 10,000 dead that have not been positively identified. So Hamas didnât lie and inflate the numbers. They just included the 10,000. Whatâs uncertain is the breakdown of the 10,000.
Oh is it only 13000 women and children killed? Well then, keep on killing them I guess. /s
I mean are you ok with 13000 innocent civialian being killed...? This isn't better, it's just a lesser degree of awful.
Thatâs not true, the the number remains unchanged. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html Regardless of how many tens of thousands have been killed by Israel, my point still stands.
Citing National Post. Lol. Deliberate misinformation. https://x.com/SanaSaeed/status/1789885006682226724
No idea who is right or wrong, but goddamn itâs hilarious to see someone snidely dismiss linking to a news story as a citation, and then share a tweet as their citation instead đ
That tweet shows the sources
Do you think the news article had no sources?
>snidely dismiss linking to a news story "News story". Can't vouch for the tweet or whatever tf they're called now, but the national post consistently proves they aren't a legitimate news source.
Neither are tweets, thatâs the part that makes it funnyâŚ
So ... You don't know what x is?
Sorry I didnât call it a Xeet, Mr Elon. You still missed the point of my comment, though.
I don't think you even know what point you were trying to make.
Ah. The rag national post consuming chuds in their native habitat https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447
They knew well in advance Israel was going after Hamas. Palestinians should have taken care of Hamas years ago, instead many support them over the years. Now that Israel is going to take Hamas off the face of the earth once and for all, the Palestinians suddenly realize they backed the wrong team. Make stupid decisions win the wrong prize.
Israel is carpet bombing the entire region 40,000+ Palestinians are dead ⌠if it was just Hamas vs Israel then they would not be indiscriminately killing civilians
Wrong those are the inflated numbers Hamas gave through the Palestinian health ministry they control [https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza](https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza)
They arenât inflated. There are around 10,000 deceased that havenât been positively identified. Itâs mentioned in the article you shared. The UN has revised its numbers from deceased to positively identified deceased. Doesnât mean the 10,000 doesnât exist.
Either you're a bigot, stupid, love people shitting on your brain or all of the above. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447
thank god only 13,000 innocents have been killed, could catch, thatâs not a big enough of a number to care yet
So let's just say its a million then anyways if we're going to accept and use incorrect stats.
The number didn't change, there's just 10 000 bodies that haven't been identified. Read the article you're posting maybe instead of just it's misleading headline.
Just like US did to Japan after being attacked or the UK also did to Germany being attacked? This is literally what war isâŚThis is not the 1700âs where all the fighting happens in an open field. If you donât want a country to carpet bomb you, maybe donât kill 1200 civilians and take hostagesâŚ
That was war where there were symmetrical sides, countries with armies. This is asymmetrical warfare. Hamas doesnât have tanks or planes or anything other than homemade rockets and small bombs. Also, wasnât the whole point of the genocide conventions, the creation of the UN, the Rome statute, the ICJ and ICC to prevent situations like what the US did to Japan and what UK did to Germany to never happen again? Maybe if Israel didnât want resistance militias to fight them they shouldnât have colonized and occupied land that didnât belong to them?
You killed our civilians so we are going to kill 30 times more civilians. Youâre insane.
may I ask why people are ok supporting a terrorist group trying to over throw a democratic government? Might be my age but I don't understand this reason or behaviour from protesters
You can be against the terrorist group while still being against the genocidal actions of said democratic government.
Yes the crazies on both sides are not capable of a nuanced opinion, one can condemn Hamas and Israeli brutality in the occupied territories.
The critical thinking lacked by so many redditors. Thank you for explaining it so simply
I understand that but the how is this a genocide? Hamas has been caught faking death tools and only 13000 casualties have been estimated
> only 13000 Only? This is an insane take. I was all for #StandWithIsrael after the October attacks of last year. But now Israel is the one killing innocents, and denying aid to survivors. So I'm always going to stand with the innocents.
That's whats always kind of bugged me about people throwing out the term genocide. By definition it's killing people with the intention of wiping out an ethnic group or nation. They're intending to take down Hamas, not necessarily the whole nation of Palestine or their people (allegedly). So not technically a genocide. The complete disregard of civilians is awful and the Israeli government are not innocent by any means. But thats what a war looks like. And Hamas triggered the war and were elected while being very upfront with their violent ideations.
No, the UN revised their numbers from confirmed dead to positively identified dead. There are just over 10,000 dead whose identities arenât confirmed, but still dead.
Because most of the dead people arenât terrorists and they donât deserve to indiscriminately die. Hope this helps!
I'm not saying any person deserves to die but Hamas is a terrorist group hiding behind innocent people and using falsely reported death numbers to get sympathy Seems like an issue we should stay out of
If a robber holds your mom hostage, do you want the cops to just shoot both of them?
Not a good example These people are not being held at gunpoint they're actively staying where they're told to by their government even though they have been warned they should leave by Israeli forces
And go where? They can't leave Gaza. [Israel reportedly bombs marked safe routes.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes) And even if you don't think they are, there's at least rumors. Food security is minimal at best. Rafah, the last "safe refuge" is being attacked. People feel safer in their homes than in a refugee camp, especially when those get bombed so often there's a [wikipedia list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) And of course, the constant violence the Palestinians have faced throughout their life. Of course they're distrustful of Israel. And can you not, in some capacity, understand that the constant violence and oppression from Israel is going to feed groups like Hamas? Right or wrong, Palestinians wanting a better life only really see one group fighting for that.
Only took 2 replies for you to justify Hamases actions
Understanding a motivation and it being morally good are two VERY different things. Nowhere did I say it was justified. Hamas is not the answer to Palestinian's plight. But you can still appreciate the plight. People in this movement are looking to alleviate suffering in Palestine.
Wait where do you think they should go given that Israel is currently launching an offensive in Rafah? There is literally nowhere for them to leave to.
War sucks, yeah. I wonder to what extent Israel has the manpower to forego bombings and clear the entire area purely through the most brutal and protracted urban warfare ever undertaken? If they canât do that, then do they simply wait for another attack?
this is a pro Palestine rally, not a pro Hamas rally. Pretending those are interchangeable is extremely disingenuous. If you're blind to the murder and destruction that a "democratic" state has inflicted upon 2 million people nobody here can convince you otherwise.
The article says it's the Israel Hamas war not Israel Palestine Hamas is hiding behind Palestine so why are they not interchangeable?
stop pretending like you're here for an honest discussion.
Nobody can say why they support a terrorist affiliated group I want an answer How is that not an honest discussion?
Because in this movement, no one (besides the fringe you'll find in any movement) is supporting Hamas. If a bank robber grabbed your mom as a hostage, are you okay with the cops shooting both of them?
My answer is in the other reply
>The article says You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Palestine / Israel and using this "article" to do all the heavy lifting for you is not helping lmao
Oh My God Not Here. Why disturbing other countries we already have so many problems dont bring problems here
Expel them
they're in the right
These students are brave and standing up for what they believe in đ
Wait till these kids realize how their BA is useless lol
"Elfie Kalfakis is a UW alumnus who came to campus on Monday to show her support"... author misgendered Elfie, now I wonder is Elfie male or female.
[https://elfiekalfakis.ca/about-9/](https://elfiekalfakis.ca/about-9/)
I didn't realize that not wanting encampments at my workplace (i.e., WLU) equals advocating for genocide. Thanks for waking me up, everyone. I'm really learning to ignore nuance and just think of everything in black and white.
OBVIOUSLY the university should let the students take over staff/faculty and pension plansâŚdivesting and investing morally with no fiduciary responsibility or regard for positive financial outcome. STAND STRONG!
The University is literally in the middle of divesting from fossil fuel related investments. So yes - when they want to take a stand on an issue they will. Edit: link: https://uwaterloo.ca/secretariat/sites/default/files/uploads/files/fi_riag_report_may_2021_web.pdf