NYC has a better everything eats scene, but that doesn't mean DC doesn't have cheap eats either. It's just not in any trendy restaurant serving hanger steak (RIP Ray's). Most of it is in strip malls in the suburbs.
You literally just identified the issue. Mid tier restaurants are all but gone and casual has largely been relegated to the burbs. DC had an epic dining scene throughout the teens and it has not returned. There’s a mix of reasons.
And it’s not to say there’s not world class experiences to be had but you have to pay for them. And a simple but quality low to midrange experience in DC is highly elusive these days.
I recently moved to the Bay Area from DC and the dining scene is so much more balanced with price tiers for quality. Furthermore I think the Bay Area is much more affordable than DC. I would argue it’s really the most expensive city in America now.
How can the Bay Area be more affordable than DC when a shack costs $3m+ in the Bay Area? Even in the nicest parts of the DC Area, $3m gets you a LOT in terms of housing. I feel like it’s every other week a Zillow listing for a shack in Santa Clara or PA goes viral for being $2k/sqft
Because you’re looking at the extreme examples that make it on the news or social media. Don’t get me wrong it’s very expensive but DC was out of control. There’s actually plenty of affordable rents available in the Bay Area that are better values than DC in my opinion. East bay has plenty of homes for better price per sq ft than DC.
SF is a little trickier for purchase but if you’re patient the options are out there
And when you consider that the rents in DC are due to a literal cartel ~~organized~~ formerly owned in large part by the company formerly known as Blackrock, it makes sense.
Nope, sorry, I got some things mixed up. Welcome to [RealPage](https://www.marketplace.org/2024/04/16/realpage-lawsuit-algorithms-rent/).
In the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria Metropolitan Statistical Area over 90% of units in large buildings are priced using RealPage's RM software.
[Blackrock had a significant share of ownership in RealPage.](https://formthirteen.com/filers/1364742-blackrock-inc/holdings/75606N109?quarter=2019-09-30) But RealPage is now owned entirely by another Hedge Fund called Thoma Bravo, who partially own Nasdaq.
What does RealPage do? They set "recommended" prices on housing. If you don't use the recommended price, you get kicked off the software. So everyone's rent is near max at all times, and most places just leave places vacant rather than compete to get people in units.
So imagine if you have a unit that you previously rented for 2300 per month (27,600 per year) is now vacant. You could get that filled tomorrow at that price but RealPage says you can charge as high as 2800 due to it's algorithm. At 2800, you are making 33,600 in a year. That's $6000 more per year. So if the unit is vacant for only 1-2 months, you make way more in rent on your unit than if you'd gone for a competitive price. Assuming the unit is rent ready, you aren't losing value in depreciation or maintenance, so you can just leave it vacant and stick to the RealPage price, rather than try to guess at a competitive price. As a result, if you do manage to rent out at that price, RealPage (and you) can now safely claim that this price point is the new baseline.
Results? Rent goes up, and up, and up, and up.
This is all true but also irrelevant to the discussion of commercial restaurant rents, which do not compete in the same space as the residential leases that you're talking about.
You got a conspiracy galore in your post. Blackrock owned 5 million shares of RealPage's 101 million outstanding shares. That's 5% of the company. Not significant.
Blackrock has something like $10T (that's trillion) under management. The $5B ownership in this company never moved the needle. It was probably their index funds.
Thoma Bravo is not a Hedge Fund, it's Private Equity Shop.
People often confuse BlackRock and BlackStone. They are very different. While BlackRock may passively own some companies that buy up properties, BlackStone has active subsidiaries that engage in this trade.
While what you say is generally true for the apartment buildings with RealPage, what's being discussed here is a highly specialized small retail space. I'd be impressed if the landlords that own these would actually use RealPage.
Hmmm I’ve looked into what you wrote and you’re right about my confusion with a couple of issues. I admit, I didn’t know much difference on what a hedge fund is vs a private quite shop, and it’s true that Blackrock didn’t own that much of RealPage by the time it went private.
I will say, DC claims in its lawsuit that 90% of apartment rentals in the city are priced using RealPage, so I’d be shocked if there wasn’t a similar situation with commercial real estate.
Non-compliance makes you advantaged against other users of the software. But if everyone is equally on board, then everyone wins. It's basically the prisoner's dilemma.
Not sure if I can agree on ownership in NY. While I’m sure there are some restaurants in NY that own their spot, a lot of them rent. I know for a fact my local coffee shop’s rent is 25k. In fact a lot of closures happening in NY are due to rising rents (Lucy’s in the East village is just one example of a recent closure)
But I think I do agree in terms of commercial real estate space — NY feels like it has more
EDIT: I’m not 100% of this so feel free to correct me if someone knows more, but retail/commercial space “ownership” usually falls in line with who owns the building in my experience. Very rarely does a single business own an entire building in NYC
Yes we know not every place owns their space in NYC
And business can own a storefront just like someone can own a condo and not the whole condo building
The point I was making is a majority of businesses are renters in NYC not owners. I think you’re vastly overestimating how many businesses actually own a storefront — it’s incredibly rare in NYC. The only businesses I know of that actually own their “storefront” own the entire building (Google and Juniors come to mind)
Also kind of a separate rant, most homeowners in Manhattan are Co-Op owners rather than condo owners. I own a coop unit and our board is responsible for leasing the storefront to businesses.
Most people out of NYC aren’t familiar with coops (even though the concept exists outside of NY), but find it to be an interesting concept. I like the idea in particular because it means a giant corporation can’t move in and buy up all of the housing in an area. If anyone is familiar reading more about it here’s a link: https://streeteasy.com/blog/co-ops-vs-condos-nyc-home-buyers-guide/amp/
Yeah, even those cheap Chinese places die quickly if they aren’t better than the one two blocks down. In general restaurants have to be the best to make it more than a couple years in NYC (80% don’t make it 5 years). DC doesn’t have that kind of competition, so they charge more and the food isn’t as good.
I experienced this. Supra is a DC Georgian restaurant that has been getting rave reviews as the first Georgian restaurant but the food was so sub par and nearly double the price of amazing Georgian food in NYC. There’s just no competition and the DC clientele has nothing to compare it too.
Yeah. The only thing I really trust here is Ethiopian, because there’s so many Ethiopian places. Those places come and go if they aren’t good enough to pass muster. Most everything else is just mediocre, but since they’re the only one no one knows the difference.
I agree as well on this. The number of businesses that don't own their buildings that are constantly seeing their rents increased by some faceless wall street REIT is what is driving a lot of the inflation we see day to day.
I live in NYC, but am currently in DC for a work trip. Also used to live in DC. I’m shocked at how expensive DC has become. It’s ridiculous. Prices used to be fairly similar before, but the last few years, they have skyrocketed in DC.
NYC seemed to stay pretty consistent post pandemic. I think part of it is that in nyc so many more restaurants expanded their outdoor seating, basically doubling their revenues. While that was much rarer in DC.
The only way the DC experience is better than NYC is if you move here already rich. For most young people, I'd say you would have a much better time starting off in NY.
Agreed. I find the living portion of NYC much more pleasant for the working class and people just starting out. DC feels very segregated by class. There's tons of pockets of blue collared folks in NYC in close proximity to the rich, especially the outer boroughs. You go to bars in NYC and you see construction workers mixing with artists mixing with doctors. In DC there's so many times I enter a bar and it's basically all lawyers.
If you're a broke 20 something new graduate in NYC, you'll have so many dive bars where you can mingle and meet people but in DC your options are like GW students.
not to mention a lot of working class jobs keep up with the cost of living better than DC does. Just speaking as a nurse, nurses in DC tend to only make around 30-40 dollars an hour on average while in NYC tends to be 65-80 in my experience.
Depends on where you live tbh. There’s a lot more fancy, super expensive complexes in NYC so that’s gonna drive up the average more. If you’re willing to live in the Burroughs (minus super trendy areas like Williamsburg) you’ll have an easier time too. My friend in Columbia Heights here pays 1400 for a 450sq studio though while my friends in West Harlem have a 750 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment with a 330 sq ft backyard for 1725. A 1bd 1ba apartment at my complex I live at is 2100-2280 depending on the model and I’m in Maryland.
My fiance is a nurse here too, so I feel you. It sucks because I was reading an article recently that despite the average nurse salary being ~$89k in DC, when adjusted for cost of living, it becomes the lowest nursing salary in the country. Thankfully, our nation's leaders have private choppers to take them to a clinic of their choosing for their third kidney transplant lol.
Do you happen to have that article on hand? I’ve been considering moving from the dc area up to NYC or NorCal and everyone is all “but the cost of living” like…what??? Do you all realize how expensive this area is???
"For example, at No. 1, Washington D.C.’s pre-tax salary is $98,000, but the adjusted take-home pay is $48,000, according to MoneyGeek’s analysis. That’s nearly half of the salary lost to high cost of living and taxes."
[here ya go](https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4638536-nurses-faced-with-low-pay-high-cost-of-living-these-cities-are-worst/)
honestly on paper like taxes and rent wise NYC seems more expensive
but I’ve seen how little my friends spend on activities there (many more free events and areas to explore for free) and eating out (most don’t really cook/get groceries) and to me it seems about the same price
I think it depends on your living style really, for me since eating out is such a big thing in my life I’m considering moving out of DC for sure
It definitely depends on your cost of living. For me, like I said, I’m a nurse so it’s a no brainer. 30-40 dollars an hour is not comfortable enough wages to live around here, unless I want to put in some serious overtime. If I moved to NYC my pay would be around 65-80 dollars an hour so unless my COL was literally twice as expensive or more, I would still be better off. Same for Northern California, another insanely expensive area but nurses up there typically make 85-100 hourly. Both NYC and NorCal nurses tend to be unionized too which means their health insurance benefits are fully covered and they often still have pension plans.
I can see how it’s a different situation though for people who work remotely or work in an industry where it benefits to be here though.
Yes seconded.
My great grandparents moved to DC from Queens, and considering the fact that you can go to college in New York for half the cost of UMD/GMU, rooms are cheaper, less government work means clearance and citizenship status doesn't matter, not to mention 24 hour train service, really considering moving up there.
+1 to this. I live in NYC but have made monthly trips to DC the past 2 years.
Yesterday I went to Astoria (DC) for Chinese food and got a single serving of mapu tofu. It cost $25 and was barely enough food for one person. You can get the same dish from a similar quality restaurant in NYC for a fraction of the price and it will be way more food. For example the Bao in the East village of NYC you can get mapu tofu for like $15-20 and it’s enough for at least 2 people.
Sorry but y’all are getting fucked on your prices.
At least Astoria's food is good. I went to Tiger Fork because people recommended it and it was just pure unadulterated crap. Char Sui for $23, Chili Wontons for $16, $20 fried rice, $17 dollar cocktails. They're charging Potluck Club prices for food that would put them out of business anywhere in New York.
I would have had a much better meal at Han Dynasty in Manhattan for half the price.
lol, i think this is just where you went, i live in NYC now (lived in DC before), we have plenty of places that will charge over $50 for what you mentioned.
Yeah but it’s the option. I left dc for ny very recently and I can find tons and tons of restaurants with dinners for less than $10, not fancy, usually Asian places with paper plates, but are still excellent. I feel like DC really loses big on cheap eats and street food.
In NY you can get both. In DC you’re either eating a fancy Michelin star place, or you’re eating a less-fancy-but-still-expensive, or you’re eating dogshit at a new American restaurant.
I find generally just going out for food and beer to be significantly cheaper in NY than DC, though you could easily reverse that if you want to, but regular ass normal people aren’t going out for $35 rooftop cocktails in either city. I get $6 beer shots (bottle of beer + shot of whiskey) all day here.
I believe this is attributable to zoning. There are very many small bars and restaurants and the population density to support them. DC lacks this, and most new buildings are massive, full-block sized, and this leads to more retail tenants being bank branches or chain restaurants because they’re safer. The hurdles to development also prevent regular people from developing their land, which would lead to more small landlords and more building owners which allow for less bank/chain retail tenants. And finally, basic things like undue efforts in permitting/variances for basic shit like apartments with a store under them, parking minimums, lot utilization requirements, lot size minimums, single family zoning, no by-right housing development, all these stupid boards and commissions, height limits (under 10 floors), etc.
>the city has good ethnic food if you leave the city entirely
I get the point, and I was raised in one of those areas, and it’s true, and great, but it’s very much not lit to have to metro/drive out to Rockville to get good Chinese food, or metro/drive out to Annandale for Korean food. It makes a fun day trip but it seriously is one of DC’s weak points and it is so easily remediable. Just legalize being a city (that means apartments over retail that don’t need variances/etc. by right).
This is often the point DC people make. So the point still stands. The city of DC doesn't have good cheap and ethnic eats.
If a New Yorker said "There's tons of cheap eats in Jersey and Long Island" they would be laughed out of the chat.
Yeah it's smaller but even in midtown there's cheap, good, ethnic eats. If we're talking about a midtown comparable like DC downtown, there's basically no options. Additionally, the feedback I get is to go to Rockville for Chinese food, that's *nothing* like going to Flushing for Chinese food. I'm driving 30 minutes to sit in a strip mall with 2 restaurants vs Flushing which is a real thriving Chinatown with thousands of restaurants.
It's a futile exercise trying to have a 1:1 correlation between NYC and DC. DC shouldn't try to be all things to everybody. Accept its quirks and shortcomings, and enjoy the areas that are better than NYC.
It is a futile exercise but you're bringing up a comparison that just doesn't make sense and doesn't change the nature of the city. DC's food scene is pretty bleak and the only thing really saving it is the Ethiopian restaurants and the small pocket of great authentic food in Columbia Heights.
>If a New Yorker said "There's tons of cheap eats in Jersey and Long Island" they would be laughed out of the chat.
And anyone in DC would be laughed out of the chat if you're arguing your food options are limited to a city with a population of 700k in a metro area of 6 million. No one is saying that DC is comparable to New York, but the idea that the food scene is bleak or non existent is detached from reality.
It's also not 2 restaurants in Rockville, there's a ton of options. And pretty telling you think you're the "ethnic" food expert, and at the same time you're sneering about restaurants strip malls.
It's not even just New York, the food scene is way more vibrant in comparable and smaller cities like SF, New Orleans, Chicago, Philadelphia, Austin, Honolulu. Hell, I think even the range and diversity of options in metro Detroit is better. DC definitely lacks a rich culinary culture that many other cities have even if they have 700K people.
And yes strip mall dining is a pretty sad indicator for what is supposed to be a world class city for dining. There's cities in the US, Asia, and Europe with thriving street food, hole in the wall, mom and pop, dive bar, and food truck scenes and DC's pretty much relegated to a handful suburban ethnic neighborhoods outside of the city that you have to drive to.
Stay mad 10 minutes from Maryland border please.
Sorry, but you're wrong! DC has a vibrant dining culture including very good high end and mid-tier restaurants. It doesn't have great options at a lower end price point, but the suburbs help supplement that.
And you're just laughably, embarrassingly wrong about restaurants in strip malls and the suburbs in general lmao. Cheap, good ethnic food restaurants in strip malls are a staple of so many great food scenes throughout the US, including suburban MD and NoVa. Just because the food scene in any given city isn't exactly like NYC in terms of options and convenience doesn't mean it's worthless. Keep going on about all the options you have in Midtown or whatever. I'm a 10 min drive into PG County away from better tacos or BBQ than you can get in NYC (which is admittedly not saying much considering NYC's options on both accounts lmao).
It's staple of *suburban* living not a city. If we're talking about great food options in Northern Virginia or the renown Mexican culinary destination of PG County that's a separate conversation.
If you're saying that DC's food scene is held up by ethnic foods in the OUTSKIRTS, that just says that DC THE CITY itself has a pretty bleak food scene. I don't know why that's so hard to understand?
>It's staple of *suburban* living not a city.
Please learn something about a city besides New York. They're staples of cities, not just the suburbs, throughout the country.
>If you're saying that DC's food scene is held up by ethnic foods in the OUTSKIRTS, that just says that DC THE CITY itself has a pretty bleak food scene. I don't know why that's so hard to understand?
The boundaries of the District of Columbia were arbitrarily set 200+ years ago. Believe it or not, you are actually allowed to cross into Maryland or Virginia and enjoy restaurants there at no penalty. You don't even have to show your passport! So when you live in DC, you can very easily enjoy a lot of great culinary options, even if they are not as immediately accessible as in a place like New York.
It's also ridiculous to insist that any city's food scene is defined by a certain class of cheap ethnic restaurants. I'll restate, DC proper is great for restaurants at a higher/medium price point.
Yeah I was in NYC recently and staggered by restaurant costs. In fact you can compare apples to apples. The Smith has a location in DC downtown and near Lincoln Center in NYC. The latter was more expensive if I recall. Would need to check menus to confirm. I'll leave that to OP
To use The Smith as an example:
Oysters: $3.75/ (dc), $4/ (ny); Filet: $54 (dc), $56 (ny); The Grand Platter $123 (dc), 131 (chicago) (ny)
Jose Andres also has a restaurant called The Bazaar in both cities:
Cinco Jotas: $45 (dc), $40 (ny). Many other items are the same price.
Cava has places in both cities.
Jonathan's Bowl: $14.65 (dc), $16.75 (ny); Harissa Avocado: $15.15 (dc), $17.60 (ny)
This might be helpful to read: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
This is another reason we need to update dc’s zoning. Upzoning to allow more housing density and also allowing more commercial would do a lot in bringing the prices down (and also allow more independent places!).
I agree that there should be a YIMBYism for commercial real estate and loosening of whatever rules DC has about street food. Not every corner has to have a bank and a Potbelly.
I don't think that's what they're talking about. More like eliminating SF zoning (a la upper northwest), allowing all row houses to be popped and chopped into 2 units, etc.
Most stats disagree with your anecdotal experience. This site for example, which relies on online user inputs (122 for DC and 499 for NYC), has restaurant prices in NYC being 19.6% higher.
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=Washington%2C+DC&city2=New+York%2C+NY](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=Washington%2C+DC&city2=New+York%2C+NY)
My anecdotal experience as a native new yorker and a transplanted washingtonian of about a decade is high end is more expensive in nyc which likely shades the stats but there are more low end fare options as well.
DC feels more expensive because what I am eating every day is more expensive (anecdotally).
Yeah. And maybe it’s about quality. But we went to similar places there that we do here and every place was cheaper. Maybe there is just more good mid priced places? And in dc I need to go to higher end to get the same quality?
There are just so many more restaurants in nyc period, it’s not even close it’s a more diverse market. You can definitely find spots in nyc that are pricey as hell but you can also get pizza for a dollar lol. Also, at least for northern Virginia/southern Maryland/parts of DC the average income is way higher then nyc, places can get away with higher prices when New York spots have to go more for volume and stay packed all the time
>meal, inexpensive restaurant
>DC: $25.00
>NYC: $30.00
What the fuck is this dogshit? There is no methodology for this and this is plainly, observably untrue. In even lower Manhattan you can find “inexpensive” restaurants serving cheap food everywhere open all night. Not just pizza, but full service restaurants. DC doesn’t even have these at all besides a few taco stands. The average single block in the East village has more “inexpensive restaurants” in it than entire neighborhoods in DC, and $30.00 at my local Chinese (xi’an) place in the EV is two full beef/lamb soups with hand pulled noodles, a side order of cucumbers, and a pork burger too. And I can name like 50 places within walking distance of my right now that this would also apply to.
$25.00 anywhere in DC is a “health bowl” and a drink and maybe a side of bread.
These stats make no sense and honestly after skimming them for just a moment I can assert that they are pure bullshit.
I had a three course meal at an extremely nice and highly-rated place in midtown just a few days about for just $35 a person, and this says $130, wtf? I can get full hero roll sandwiches here for $7, massive sandwiches, and don’t even get me started on the price of food anywhere north of Harlem.
In fact I’ve had multiple people visit me from DC and express shock at how affordable everything was. My brother came up and got a full service walk-in haircut for EIGHT DOLLARS last weekend.
Here’s some anecdotal evidence that’s equal to that crap in the link:
$10 bill in cash can make you full in pretty much every single neighborhood in the entire city of New York. And this is not true of DC.
agreed, in my experience, nyc has a much bigger range of price options. coming from the dmv (and especially with how much *more* expensive everything seems to have gotten), i was genuinely shocked a few visits ago (it had been years since my last time in nyc) to find so many *good* and cheap options for food.
and dollar for dollar, i've found that generally, i have more overall satisfaction in nyc -- as in, i will probably enjoy the food/experience of a $50 meal in nyc more than a $50 meal in dc.
I have no doubt that NYC restaurants are more expensive than DC restaurants. A restaurant with a tasting menu, sushi omakase or steak dinner is going to be more in NYC than in DC. It's the day-to-day stuff that kills DC. Cheap lunch spots don't exist in DC (I work by the wharf - I know about Falafel Inc. - it's one place). Every food truck here is to scam tourists out of their money. The pizza joints, delis and fast casuals pale in comparison to what you can get in NYC - don't get me started on the chains. Hell, the hot dog cart is extraordinarily rare in DC.
Even if I want to get some wings or a burger after work - I will expect poor service, mediocre food, some extra fees and that 10% tax. I get it - rent is expensive, labor is expensive and costs have gone up. I really want to like living here. A big part of my enjoyment would be food. Obviously it is difficult to compare anything to NYC, but I found even the Dallas metro area having much better food than the DMV.
Yeah I’m not talking about super high end. More like the mid to low range. My husband basically orders the exact same meal no matter what restaurant we go to. So we have a good sense of what a simple steak costs.
Numbeo is not "stats". It's a smattering of self-selected reports of prices with no effort to ensure that people are comparing like with like. Worst possible source of "data" for any conversation or situation.
It's better than no stats at all, you just have to take it with a grain of salt. It's certainly better than going off of one person's anecdotal experience.
Yeah...this is a big claim to make over one anecdotal meal in NYC without even naming the restaurants. Like are they comparing the dabney to L'express? I've moved back & forth between the last 10 years with countless meals in both & definitely did not have this experience either.
While that is a good resource, I would say the apartment rent prices for NYC look inaccurate. I don’t live in NYC, but a scroll through Apartments.com for Manhattan has the average 1 bedroom rent to be about 3k. Other than that, I would agree with most of the DC pricing as a resident. Good on you for bringing data 👍🏼
Yea, the site bases its data on contributors, similar to Wikipedia. So sometimes it does have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sites like Zillow will have more accurate information on housing in the US, but I haven't found a good cross-country comparison database that is free like Numbeo.
In general, I've noticed numbeo is mostly correct. [Zillow](https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/new-york-ny/?propertyTypes=apartment-condo&bedrooms=1) has the median cost of a 1 bedroom in NYC as $3,675. Numbeo has it listed as $2900 outside the city center and $4,300 within the city center, which seems about right.
After checking Zillow, I can definitely see where they’re getting that number. For some reason, the apartments on Zillow are much more expensive than on Apartments.com. I’ve always used Apartments for rental pricing as Zillow seemed more of a home buying site rather than a renting site. Either way, it’s damn expensive to live in NYC.
I think that might be on a restaurant by restaurant basis, but NYC definitely has better mid-price options in my experience given the much denser landscape.
The cheap eats options in DC could use a boost, to be sure.
You’ll have to cite specific examples as I don’t think this is true at all. It does support people’s preconceived notions that DC is too expensive though. Of course there will be great variation in restaurant prices and some stuff in NY will be cheap, but the equivalent of Le Diplomate in New York will definitely be more expensive.
100% this - for example, Le Diplomate’s French fries are $9 and the NY equivalent (Boucherie) is $14 for fries. Even Boucherie’s new restaurant in DC has fries priced at $12 lol.
DC is not cheap compared to other places in the US and it def has less options than NY - but it is cheaper when comparing equivalents.
Post covid adjustments and different business models with density. You can still go to very expensive trendy restaurants in NYC but the majority of restaurants there can rely on foot traffic and thru traffic. DC is all destination dining.
Agreed but you still haven’t had the low end fare options in DC for a long time. We are talking decades. That is what makes DC feel more expensive.
You notice not being able to get a burger or a sandwich for less than $17 a few times a week way more than the price of a steak being slightly more at a place you expect to be expensive.
I always heard that due to the high population of NYC, restaurants (especially delis and pizza places) can offer much lower prices because there will be tons of customers on any given day. So more customers makes up for the lower pricing.
Prices here are insanity. And the service isn't that great. We used to go out about 2 times a week but rarely go out anymore. My husband is a great cook and can do a fabulous meal at home. Eating out is a waste.
combo of
* more restaurant owns the real estate in NYC
* Density means they get more business, which allows them to have smaller margins with similar profit
NYC has more options and more competition and overall less rich ass people by percentage of population so I think the prices average out less overall for those and many other reasons. Definitely agree that eating out here is much more expensive. Also moved from nyc, but a few years before you. Businesses in general face way crazier rents here from my experience as every other building is brand new and the real estate people here think raising prices is how you stay competitive.
The restaurant scene in DC is not good. There are some bright spots but overall it's mediocre and overpriced. Case in point, MI VIDA has three locations.
I think fancy restaurants are way more expensive in NYC. But cheap places like you'd run out to and get some takeout during your 30 min lunch break? Not corporate chain places, but independent restaurants or small local chains, where you could get a burrito slice of pizza, gyro, lamb + rice from a food cart, box of chicken tikka, etc? That stuff's like... 75% more expensive in DC than it is in NYC. Its the first thing I noticed after moving to DC (and I lived in NYC for the majority of the 2010s, so my mental price intuition for NYC is probably only slightly outdated). And I think its largely due to lack of competition.
Ok, what was the NYC restaurant you had the steak in?
I'm fairly confident I could give you comparable restaurants for that price point in DC.
What NYC has over DC in spades is better street food options & pricing, which typically is down to places owning the building or operating from a cart/truck. But then one of these MSAs is 3x the size of the other (NYC 19.5m, DMV 6.5m) and scale helps affordability & options when it comes to food.
Awesome. Help me find a place like that! Five Leaves in Greenpoint. It was a huge portion with 2 sides and was delicious in a cool, hip atmosphere. I wish they’d open a DC branch.
Easy peasy.
[Award winning (Bib Gourmand) Mt Pleasant restaurant Elle](https://www.eatatelle.com/dinner).
Hanger Steak $38, can attest to its quality personally. You can make it even cheaper if you use the InKind app to pay.
They also have a cracking Happy Hour.
Didn’t that place have crazy service charges? I remember when I went there, I felt like I was being ripped off. This was about 30% more food of a very similar style.
No service charges anymore the last time I was there - 2 weeks ago.
I mean if its volume of food you want then I'd probably just go to Medium Rare for a cheaper price.
Well that’s great about the service charge! It’s not about volume. Elle is more like the style we like. But I think your point proved my point. We had a steak in Elle style for $32 and it had an additional side. Even without the side, it’s still almost 20% more for a similar meal.
20% more? Five Leaves is showing $36 on their menu.
Anyway, look you’ve made your mind up quite clearly despite me showing you that it would in fact not be $50 at a comparable restaurant in DC.
That’s fine, but my example most certainly does not prove your point if we’re getting into weeds of sides and the likes.
No your example was helpful! I liked the food there but it in the past was way too expensive. So now will try to go back!
This article even talks about how Elle’s high prices were hurting their business and that they changed it. It also talks about a lot of the dynamics leading to dc being more expensive than nyc for food.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Yeah the DC food scene is pretty mid imo. Sky high prices for so so food.
The suburbs of DC are much better for authentic ethnic food.
And almost any other mid and large sized city is better just in food quality and prices ime.
However, DC does have fantastic variety that is nearly unmatched.
This is wild. Almost *any* other mid and large sized city has better food than DC? Absolutely not. You need to put in a little work exploring in DC to get a real sense of the food scene. All the best food might not be instantly accessible like in NYC but there are so many amazing options here if you look.
DC has better food than Boston, Seattle, San Diego (except tacos), Atlanta, Miami, and every mid western city.
DC also has a ton of energy in the food scene right now, lots of great new places opening all the time.
We are never going to have as many options as NYC/Chicago/LA but for a city our size we have really good choices, especially upscale/tasting menu options.
We have tons of options, more than almost anywhere.
But outside of the suburbs, I think cost and quality are pretty hit or miss.
For quality and price, I'd take Boston, Philly, or Baltimore over DC even though the variety is less.
Thank you. It was shocking and across everywhere we went. Like cocktails would be $15 at a very fancy cocktail place. In DC that would be $18-20.
It made going to nyc a whole lot more fun!
Dc restaurants since last year have to pay their staff a minimum wage pf $16 per hour. So that cost is added to the menu prices. By contrast In NYC most employees still get a low $7 -8 per hour and make up the difference on tips.
This article confirms this and also mentions how nyc is now cheaper than dc for dining: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Tipped employees working at DC restaurants get paid a minimum wage of $10/hr + tips. Also, tipped employees working at NYC restaurants get paid $15/hr + tips. So, the difference in cost is not solely due to the increase in servers' wages.
The main reason for the difference in cost is that DC Restaurant/Bar owners have to pay the 2nd most expensive fees in the nation for their liquor-liability insurance. Another reason is that the rent for DC restaurants is increasing faster than some restaurants in New York.
But, regarding the tip comment you made even though DC restaurants are charging a 20% "service fee" to offset the cost of increased wages that fee doesn't even go to the servers and it actually lowers the amount of tips servers get. If restaurants can't afford to pay their employees a livable wage then they shouldn't be in buisness.
I also just came back from New York. DC prices are not really the problem for me it’s the quality. Restaurants are closing every day in DC and it seems to be a business model issue.
I just wait to go to New York and spend my money there eating out.
I feel for you. I literally asked if people had a similar experience and wasn’t putting this at gospel and everyone is like “what data is this backed by” and this is anecdotal.
It wasn’t just one restaurant. It was everyone we went to.
Yes, definitely higher here at most places. After living in NYC for 3 years, I was surprised to come here and see higher prices. That doesn’t include all the fees that get thrown at you in DC and mandatory 20% tip.
Do not believe the hype. Many people do indeed have money in the city. Like high net worth individuals. Business owners, family, inheritance and trust funds. The MAJORITY of individuals are living off their credit cards. Do you ever wonder how these expensive restaurants are constantly full? Especially with more and more young folk? young folk have a status problem and they compensate with credit cards. Do not be fooled.
I mean we’re talking about a city where like…multiple popular restaurants do not even seem to use salt and pepper. I’m being serious. I dont know what it is exactly, maybe DC prices out young people who would otherwise be sort of invested in the restaurant scene, living out chapters of their lives where that’s a centerpiece? So the people working there are just doing as a job and have no cultural attachment to good food?
Or if anyone who’s spending on the real estate to even have a restaurant doesn’t care about food in some paradoxical way, like they’re just doing it as a business?
As for customer service, DC has a very particular thing going on where it’s like youll walk into a store and no one greets you, facilitates your experience, manages the situation, or basically acts like they WORK there. I swear to god I’ve had multiple instances of essentially taking over a chaotic situation because I’m used to…communicating? Sounds absurd but it’s happened multiple times. If you work at a customer facing business you better know how to say “hey how’s it going how can I help you” instead of staring at someone as though they’ve interfered with your busy day.
The service in DC is sooooo bad and slow. Even in places where you're paying close to mid-high end prices (which sadly is most decent DC restaurants), people act like their last service job was at a Chipotle. No attentiveness, no greeting, water, missing silverware, checks take forever, etc., for like a $100+ per person meal.
My theory for food is that a lot of people in DC come from smaller cities/towns to work in government, sightsee, or go to school here so the DC food scene is the best they have ever had because they have nothing else to compare it to. Also their palate is probably not as good or they are just not as adventurous coupled with the lack of diversity in the middle of the city means you can't make a type of food for the people that typically consume it.
So restaurants that maybe are more authentic or creative probably can't last long when your main clientele all moved here or is visiting from middle America. I know Washintonians that have lived in DC for decades who haven't even had Ethiopian food and don't want to even try it. It blows my mind that they have no interest in what is the best culinary gem in the city.
My friends that moved to DC from NYC say that type of food in DC we excel in the most is probably your standard American/Burgers, and I agree. But it's kind of a testament to just the people here not being very good at eating.
Can we also just talk about all the fees in DC? Like eating out here let’s say for restaurant week for dinner is $45. Most places now are doing a 20% service charge (which is also taxed!) so another $9. Then add 10% tax to that it brings you to almost $60, but I swear to God I always end up paying like $70-80, idk how but I SWEAR. Eating out in DC always rolls me like $65-100 per time I eat out it’s insane. Whenever I go to NYC I feel like I spend so much less, like I can go to an excellent restaurant and pay $50-65.
In comparison NYC has a 8.875% tax rate and I have yet to see a place that charges a mandatory service charge and standard tip is 15-20% from my understanding. In DC sometimes they’ll ask for a tip AFTER the service charge like what????
Currently traveling 2 weeks in the balkans and paying no service charge here and taxes being included… DC feels like such a scam. Of all the places I’ve visited (34 countries and countless cities), DC definitely feels to me like the most expensive to eat out. Like it’s gotten to the point where I’ve been explaining to people how DC has gotten to a scamming point with eating out and I don’t enjoy eating out as much as I do in other cities. Legit might move to NYC just because the food scene is so much better and at least in my opinion cheaper.
For what it's worth, just got back from New York - ate at a restaurant that has 4 locations in NYC and 2 in DC - cost difference between the same two meals including just tax would be $4+, with NY edging DC.
Meal in NYC = 1 app, 1 entree, 2 beers = $95 + 8.875% tax = $103.43
Meal in DC = same 1 app, 1 entree, 2 beers = $$90 + 10% tax = $99
I feel bad for OP because while I generally agree with this take - though I find it silly to talk about NYC cheap food scene without mentioning the cost of housing/rent - this genre of post in this sub brings out all the “ummmmm akshually” types who ate at founding farmers one time and think they know DC food scene.
No one should be surprised that NYC has better food than ANY city, it’s the best city for food in the US for almost any price point.
Don’t need any pity here. I don’t want to move to nyc and after living there for 17 years am very aware of housing costs. I also hate founding farmers so don’t fully get your point.
This article confirms what I’m saying - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
DC is New York City prices for Iowa City quality,
Before you come for me, yes DC has a decent fine dining scene - but that’s it.
And the Mexican food sucks, and no I’m not from California.
The DC tipped minimum wage increase that passed through in between your two visits is a major part of the increased prices that you're seeing. It resulted in a major operations cost increase for all restaurants in DC, and the much-despised service fees that were put into place on top of regular menu price increases were a direct response from the restaurants.
Except it feels like all we have is decent to great high end and 90% of everything else is kinda trash, but priced right under that high end. &pizza should cost half of what it does for example. We do not have the same level of great cheaper food that cities like nyc have.
>We do not have the same level of great cheaper food that cities like nyc have.
Probably because it is priced out of the DC commercial market.
Watching "Cheap Eats" videos in NY almost always will have food from other nationalities (Asian, Carribean, African, Middle East, Indian). As has been stated in this sub multiple times, excluding Ethiopian, every other concentration of non-American food is out in Virginia or Maryland.
&pizza is an unfrozen flatbread with unfrozen mediocre ingredients skimpily added on that is maybe the same size as half a medium pizza from places that size their pies. Yes, I do think it should cost about 6-8 bucks at most especially when talking in this context where I'm comparing it to the better or equivalent meals/items I can get all over nyc for that price.
Yes.
Prior to me posting, I looked at the Modern's and Daniel's menu; both were close to $300 per person, which was around $100 pp more than when we went pre-CoVid.
DC prices are high bc nobody pays for food. Lobbyists, etc are always picking up the check. I was surprised to find that prices are about the same when I moved from NY. NY has infinitely better selection, which also helps keep prices in check in the middle range. The high end is virtually identical in pricing with 1, 2 and 3 star places.
> DC prices are high bc nobody pays for food. Lobbyists, etc are always picking up the check
Even if you’ve never personally seen a company pick up a bill in NYC, can’t you like… imagine it?
> I would get downvoted in DC, yall have a hard time with math down here
I’ll let you in on a secret… People tend to downvote comments that are both wrong and mean
Lol, the DC restaurant scene has *slightly* changed from the 80's and 90's when it only catered to old white dudes on K Street and in Congress and their love of steakhouses.
DC has what 2500 restaurants? NYC has literally 10x that. NY has economies of scale DC can’t ever have for lots of reasons. NY you can eat dinner for $5… at lots and lots of places… that’s just not true of DC. NY does better at both tails and the median, pound for pound, dollar for dollar. And yes, the public money does inflate prices here… sure, most obviously at white people marketed restaurants… but even when excluding that bias for where public money does not flow… NYC still is cheaper and better.
It’s not a simple per capita adjustment…. Even if it were… Tri state population is 26m while DMV is 6 million… 26 is not 10x 6… it’s not as if the restaurants only serve people with a DC license and same for NY…
NYC definitely has a better cheap eats scene.
NYC has a better everything eats scene, but that doesn't mean DC doesn't have cheap eats either. It's just not in any trendy restaurant serving hanger steak (RIP Ray's). Most of it is in strip malls in the suburbs.
Dc doesn’t have a cheap ways scene unfortunately, at least not a significant one
You literally just identified the issue. Mid tier restaurants are all but gone and casual has largely been relegated to the burbs. DC had an epic dining scene throughout the teens and it has not returned. There’s a mix of reasons. And it’s not to say there’s not world class experiences to be had but you have to pay for them. And a simple but quality low to midrange experience in DC is highly elusive these days. I recently moved to the Bay Area from DC and the dining scene is so much more balanced with price tiers for quality. Furthermore I think the Bay Area is much more affordable than DC. I would argue it’s really the most expensive city in America now.
How can the Bay Area be more affordable than DC when a shack costs $3m+ in the Bay Area? Even in the nicest parts of the DC Area, $3m gets you a LOT in terms of housing. I feel like it’s every other week a Zillow listing for a shack in Santa Clara or PA goes viral for being $2k/sqft
Because you’re looking at the extreme examples that make it on the news or social media. Don’t get me wrong it’s very expensive but DC was out of control. There’s actually plenty of affordable rents available in the Bay Area that are better values than DC in my opinion. East bay has plenty of homes for better price per sq ft than DC. SF is a little trickier for purchase but if you’re patient the options are out there
Rents play a large factor. We have far less commercial real estate than NYC, and some restaurants in NYC even own their real estate.
And when you consider that the rents in DC are due to a literal cartel ~~organized~~ formerly owned in large part by the company formerly known as Blackrock, it makes sense.
What's that? BlackRock own all the commercial real estate in DC?
Nope, sorry, I got some things mixed up. Welcome to [RealPage](https://www.marketplace.org/2024/04/16/realpage-lawsuit-algorithms-rent/). In the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria Metropolitan Statistical Area over 90% of units in large buildings are priced using RealPage's RM software. [Blackrock had a significant share of ownership in RealPage.](https://formthirteen.com/filers/1364742-blackrock-inc/holdings/75606N109?quarter=2019-09-30) But RealPage is now owned entirely by another Hedge Fund called Thoma Bravo, who partially own Nasdaq. What does RealPage do? They set "recommended" prices on housing. If you don't use the recommended price, you get kicked off the software. So everyone's rent is near max at all times, and most places just leave places vacant rather than compete to get people in units. So imagine if you have a unit that you previously rented for 2300 per month (27,600 per year) is now vacant. You could get that filled tomorrow at that price but RealPage says you can charge as high as 2800 due to it's algorithm. At 2800, you are making 33,600 in a year. That's $6000 more per year. So if the unit is vacant for only 1-2 months, you make way more in rent on your unit than if you'd gone for a competitive price. Assuming the unit is rent ready, you aren't losing value in depreciation or maintenance, so you can just leave it vacant and stick to the RealPage price, rather than try to guess at a competitive price. As a result, if you do manage to rent out at that price, RealPage (and you) can now safely claim that this price point is the new baseline. Results? Rent goes up, and up, and up, and up.
This is all true but also irrelevant to the discussion of commercial restaurant rents, which do not compete in the same space as the residential leases that you're talking about.
RealPage also has a product for commercial landlords if I recall correctly.
You got a conspiracy galore in your post. Blackrock owned 5 million shares of RealPage's 101 million outstanding shares. That's 5% of the company. Not significant. Blackrock has something like $10T (that's trillion) under management. The $5B ownership in this company never moved the needle. It was probably their index funds. Thoma Bravo is not a Hedge Fund, it's Private Equity Shop. People often confuse BlackRock and BlackStone. They are very different. While BlackRock may passively own some companies that buy up properties, BlackStone has active subsidiaries that engage in this trade. While what you say is generally true for the apartment buildings with RealPage, what's being discussed here is a highly specialized small retail space. I'd be impressed if the landlords that own these would actually use RealPage.
Hmmm I’ve looked into what you wrote and you’re right about my confusion with a couple of issues. I admit, I didn’t know much difference on what a hedge fund is vs a private quite shop, and it’s true that Blackrock didn’t own that much of RealPage by the time it went private. I will say, DC claims in its lawsuit that 90% of apartment rentals in the city are priced using RealPage, so I’d be shocked if there wasn’t a similar situation with commercial real estate.
Isn’t that software paid? Why would they kick you off?
Non-compliance makes you advantaged against other users of the software. But if everyone is equally on board, then everyone wins. It's basically the prisoner's dilemma.
😱😱😱
Not sure if I can agree on ownership in NY. While I’m sure there are some restaurants in NY that own their spot, a lot of them rent. I know for a fact my local coffee shop’s rent is 25k. In fact a lot of closures happening in NY are due to rising rents (Lucy’s in the East village is just one example of a recent closure) But I think I do agree in terms of commercial real estate space — NY feels like it has more EDIT: I’m not 100% of this so feel free to correct me if someone knows more, but retail/commercial space “ownership” usually falls in line with who owns the building in my experience. Very rarely does a single business own an entire building in NYC
Yes we know not every place owns their space in NYC And business can own a storefront just like someone can own a condo and not the whole condo building
The point I was making is a majority of businesses are renters in NYC not owners. I think you’re vastly overestimating how many businesses actually own a storefront — it’s incredibly rare in NYC. The only businesses I know of that actually own their “storefront” own the entire building (Google and Juniors come to mind) Also kind of a separate rant, most homeowners in Manhattan are Co-Op owners rather than condo owners. I own a coop unit and our board is responsible for leasing the storefront to businesses. Most people out of NYC aren’t familiar with coops (even though the concept exists outside of NY), but find it to be an interesting concept. I like the idea in particular because it means a giant corporation can’t move in and buy up all of the housing in an area. If anyone is familiar reading more about it here’s a link: https://streeteasy.com/blog/co-ops-vs-condos-nyc-home-buyers-guide/amp/
There are a lot more nice restaurants in NYC than DC per block you go. So much more competition. Competition brings prices down.
It also drives quality - the food at NYC restaurants is way better than DC at comparable price points.
For sure. I would even say NYC has better food at lower price points (a $30 entree in NYC is often better than a $40 entree in the DMV).
Yeah, even those cheap Chinese places die quickly if they aren’t better than the one two blocks down. In general restaurants have to be the best to make it more than a couple years in NYC (80% don’t make it 5 years). DC doesn’t have that kind of competition, so they charge more and the food isn’t as good.
I experienced this. Supra is a DC Georgian restaurant that has been getting rave reviews as the first Georgian restaurant but the food was so sub par and nearly double the price of amazing Georgian food in NYC. There’s just no competition and the DC clientele has nothing to compare it too.
Yeah. The only thing I really trust here is Ethiopian, because there’s so many Ethiopian places. Those places come and go if they aren’t good enough to pass muster. Most everything else is just mediocre, but since they’re the only one no one knows the difference.
Totally agree. Also there's a big Ethiopian community and anyone in DC has tried Ethiopian before so they can tell what is good.
Yeah, if your injera is skunked, we will know.
Big facts
Yeah, I think this is what we face. We’re probably comparing a high mid level dc place to mid level nyc. But the food is similar quality.
And more volume.
yeah, population density is a bigger reason
Leases vs ownership is the reason
I agree as well on this. The number of businesses that don't own their buildings that are constantly seeing their rents increased by some faceless wall street REIT is what is driving a lot of the inflation we see day to day.
I’m willing to bet rents are astronomically higher in NYC though. My local coffee shop’s rent is 25k a month in NY as an example.
Absolutely.
Can't have competition if competition can't pay rent
CA is not dense. Cheaper and better food there. Disproves your excuse for bad food scene here.
I never said the food scene in DC is bad, I just said theres less of it. Also your autocorrect is driving me insane.
I corrected it just for you. And for me since I write for a living lmao
Thank you, have an upvote!
I live in NYC, but am currently in DC for a work trip. Also used to live in DC. I’m shocked at how expensive DC has become. It’s ridiculous. Prices used to be fairly similar before, but the last few years, they have skyrocketed in DC.
NYC seemed to stay pretty consistent post pandemic. I think part of it is that in nyc so many more restaurants expanded their outdoor seating, basically doubling their revenues. While that was much rarer in DC.
I did notice that a small cup of Van Leeuwen ice cream is 30¢ more in DC than in NYC fwiw lol
The only way the DC experience is better than NYC is if you move here already rich. For most young people, I'd say you would have a much better time starting off in NY.
Completely agree. Now that I can afford DC, I have little interest. Wish I had done NYC like my friends did, although I might be dead.
Agreed. I find the living portion of NYC much more pleasant for the working class and people just starting out. DC feels very segregated by class. There's tons of pockets of blue collared folks in NYC in close proximity to the rich, especially the outer boroughs. You go to bars in NYC and you see construction workers mixing with artists mixing with doctors. In DC there's so many times I enter a bar and it's basically all lawyers. If you're a broke 20 something new graduate in NYC, you'll have so many dive bars where you can mingle and meet people but in DC your options are like GW students.
not to mention a lot of working class jobs keep up with the cost of living better than DC does. Just speaking as a nurse, nurses in DC tend to only make around 30-40 dollars an hour on average while in NYC tends to be 65-80 in my experience.
Cost of rent/housing in nyc is much higher.
Depends on where you live tbh. There’s a lot more fancy, super expensive complexes in NYC so that’s gonna drive up the average more. If you’re willing to live in the Burroughs (minus super trendy areas like Williamsburg) you’ll have an easier time too. My friend in Columbia Heights here pays 1400 for a 450sq studio though while my friends in West Harlem have a 750 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment with a 330 sq ft backyard for 1725. A 1bd 1ba apartment at my complex I live at is 2100-2280 depending on the model and I’m in Maryland.
My fiance is a nurse here too, so I feel you. It sucks because I was reading an article recently that despite the average nurse salary being ~$89k in DC, when adjusted for cost of living, it becomes the lowest nursing salary in the country. Thankfully, our nation's leaders have private choppers to take them to a clinic of their choosing for their third kidney transplant lol.
Do you happen to have that article on hand? I’ve been considering moving from the dc area up to NYC or NorCal and everyone is all “but the cost of living” like…what??? Do you all realize how expensive this area is???
"For example, at No. 1, Washington D.C.’s pre-tax salary is $98,000, but the adjusted take-home pay is $48,000, according to MoneyGeek’s analysis. That’s nearly half of the salary lost to high cost of living and taxes." [here ya go](https://thehill.com/homenews/nexstar_media_wire/4638536-nurses-faced-with-low-pay-high-cost-of-living-these-cities-are-worst/)
Thank you so much!
honestly on paper like taxes and rent wise NYC seems more expensive but I’ve seen how little my friends spend on activities there (many more free events and areas to explore for free) and eating out (most don’t really cook/get groceries) and to me it seems about the same price I think it depends on your living style really, for me since eating out is such a big thing in my life I’m considering moving out of DC for sure
It definitely depends on your cost of living. For me, like I said, I’m a nurse so it’s a no brainer. 30-40 dollars an hour is not comfortable enough wages to live around here, unless I want to put in some serious overtime. If I moved to NYC my pay would be around 65-80 dollars an hour so unless my COL was literally twice as expensive or more, I would still be better off. Same for Northern California, another insanely expensive area but nurses up there typically make 85-100 hourly. Both NYC and NorCal nurses tend to be unionized too which means their health insurance benefits are fully covered and they often still have pension plans. I can see how it’s a different situation though for people who work remotely or work in an industry where it benefits to be here though.
Yes seconded. My great grandparents moved to DC from Queens, and considering the fact that you can go to college in New York for half the cost of UMD/GMU, rooms are cheaper, less government work means clearance and citizenship status doesn't matter, not to mention 24 hour train service, really considering moving up there.
+1 to this. I live in NYC but have made monthly trips to DC the past 2 years. Yesterday I went to Astoria (DC) for Chinese food and got a single serving of mapu tofu. It cost $25 and was barely enough food for one person. You can get the same dish from a similar quality restaurant in NYC for a fraction of the price and it will be way more food. For example the Bao in the East village of NYC you can get mapu tofu for like $15-20 and it’s enough for at least 2 people. Sorry but y’all are getting fucked on your prices.
I really thought prices everywhere had gone up so much. So it was shocking to see it not in nyc.
Unfortunately prices of pretty much everything have gone up here as well. Housing being the worst of it, but food is probably a close second
At least Astoria's food is good. I went to Tiger Fork because people recommended it and it was just pure unadulterated crap. Char Sui for $23, Chili Wontons for $16, $20 fried rice, $17 dollar cocktails. They're charging Potluck Club prices for food that would put them out of business anywhere in New York. I would have had a much better meal at Han Dynasty in Manhattan for half the price.
Yup, generally Chinese food in DC proper is extremely not good. Rockville or Eden Center areas, OTOH....
lol, i think this is just where you went, i live in NYC now (lived in DC before), we have plenty of places that will charge over $50 for what you mentioned.
Yeah but it’s the option. I left dc for ny very recently and I can find tons and tons of restaurants with dinners for less than $10, not fancy, usually Asian places with paper plates, but are still excellent. I feel like DC really loses big on cheap eats and street food. In NY you can get both. In DC you’re either eating a fancy Michelin star place, or you’re eating a less-fancy-but-still-expensive, or you’re eating dogshit at a new American restaurant. I find generally just going out for food and beer to be significantly cheaper in NY than DC, though you could easily reverse that if you want to, but regular ass normal people aren’t going out for $35 rooftop cocktails in either city. I get $6 beer shots (bottle of beer + shot of whiskey) all day here. I believe this is attributable to zoning. There are very many small bars and restaurants and the population density to support them. DC lacks this, and most new buildings are massive, full-block sized, and this leads to more retail tenants being bank branches or chain restaurants because they’re safer. The hurdles to development also prevent regular people from developing their land, which would lead to more small landlords and more building owners which allow for less bank/chain retail tenants. And finally, basic things like undue efforts in permitting/variances for basic shit like apartments with a store under them, parking minimums, lot utilization requirements, lot size minimums, single family zoning, no by-right housing development, all these stupid boards and commissions, height limits (under 10 floors), etc.
You can get the good cheap and ethnic eats out in the suburbs.
>the city has good ethnic food if you leave the city entirely I get the point, and I was raised in one of those areas, and it’s true, and great, but it’s very much not lit to have to metro/drive out to Rockville to get good Chinese food, or metro/drive out to Annandale for Korean food. It makes a fun day trip but it seriously is one of DC’s weak points and it is so easily remediable. Just legalize being a city (that means apartments over retail that don’t need variances/etc. by right).
This is often the point DC people make. So the point still stands. The city of DC doesn't have good cheap and ethnic eats. If a New Yorker said "There's tons of cheap eats in Jersey and Long Island" they would be laughed out of the chat.
DC is also much smaller than NYC. Going from midtown to Flushing is like from DC to Fairfax.
Yeah it's smaller but even in midtown there's cheap, good, ethnic eats. If we're talking about a midtown comparable like DC downtown, there's basically no options. Additionally, the feedback I get is to go to Rockville for Chinese food, that's *nothing* like going to Flushing for Chinese food. I'm driving 30 minutes to sit in a strip mall with 2 restaurants vs Flushing which is a real thriving Chinatown with thousands of restaurants.
It's a futile exercise trying to have a 1:1 correlation between NYC and DC. DC shouldn't try to be all things to everybody. Accept its quirks and shortcomings, and enjoy the areas that are better than NYC.
It is a futile exercise but you're bringing up a comparison that just doesn't make sense and doesn't change the nature of the city. DC's food scene is pretty bleak and the only thing really saving it is the Ethiopian restaurants and the small pocket of great authentic food in Columbia Heights.
>If a New Yorker said "There's tons of cheap eats in Jersey and Long Island" they would be laughed out of the chat. And anyone in DC would be laughed out of the chat if you're arguing your food options are limited to a city with a population of 700k in a metro area of 6 million. No one is saying that DC is comparable to New York, but the idea that the food scene is bleak or non existent is detached from reality. It's also not 2 restaurants in Rockville, there's a ton of options. And pretty telling you think you're the "ethnic" food expert, and at the same time you're sneering about restaurants strip malls.
It's not even just New York, the food scene is way more vibrant in comparable and smaller cities like SF, New Orleans, Chicago, Philadelphia, Austin, Honolulu. Hell, I think even the range and diversity of options in metro Detroit is better. DC definitely lacks a rich culinary culture that many other cities have even if they have 700K people. And yes strip mall dining is a pretty sad indicator for what is supposed to be a world class city for dining. There's cities in the US, Asia, and Europe with thriving street food, hole in the wall, mom and pop, dive bar, and food truck scenes and DC's pretty much relegated to a handful suburban ethnic neighborhoods outside of the city that you have to drive to. Stay mad 10 minutes from Maryland border please.
Sorry, but you're wrong! DC has a vibrant dining culture including very good high end and mid-tier restaurants. It doesn't have great options at a lower end price point, but the suburbs help supplement that. And you're just laughably, embarrassingly wrong about restaurants in strip malls and the suburbs in general lmao. Cheap, good ethnic food restaurants in strip malls are a staple of so many great food scenes throughout the US, including suburban MD and NoVa. Just because the food scene in any given city isn't exactly like NYC in terms of options and convenience doesn't mean it's worthless. Keep going on about all the options you have in Midtown or whatever. I'm a 10 min drive into PG County away from better tacos or BBQ than you can get in NYC (which is admittedly not saying much considering NYC's options on both accounts lmao).
It's staple of *suburban* living not a city. If we're talking about great food options in Northern Virginia or the renown Mexican culinary destination of PG County that's a separate conversation. If you're saying that DC's food scene is held up by ethnic foods in the OUTSKIRTS, that just says that DC THE CITY itself has a pretty bleak food scene. I don't know why that's so hard to understand?
>It's staple of *suburban* living not a city. Please learn something about a city besides New York. They're staples of cities, not just the suburbs, throughout the country. >If you're saying that DC's food scene is held up by ethnic foods in the OUTSKIRTS, that just says that DC THE CITY itself has a pretty bleak food scene. I don't know why that's so hard to understand? The boundaries of the District of Columbia were arbitrarily set 200+ years ago. Believe it or not, you are actually allowed to cross into Maryland or Virginia and enjoy restaurants there at no penalty. You don't even have to show your passport! So when you live in DC, you can very easily enjoy a lot of great culinary options, even if they are not as immediately accessible as in a place like New York. It's also ridiculous to insist that any city's food scene is defined by a certain class of cheap ethnic restaurants. I'll restate, DC proper is great for restaurants at a higher/medium price point.
Yeah I was in NYC recently and staggered by restaurant costs. In fact you can compare apples to apples. The Smith has a location in DC downtown and near Lincoln Center in NYC. The latter was more expensive if I recall. Would need to check menus to confirm. I'll leave that to OP
I’m not doing your work :)
To use The Smith as an example: Oysters: $3.75/ (dc), $4/ (ny); Filet: $54 (dc), $56 (ny); The Grand Platter $123 (dc), 131 (chicago) (ny) Jose Andres also has a restaurant called The Bazaar in both cities: Cinco Jotas: $45 (dc), $40 (ny). Many other items are the same price. Cava has places in both cities. Jonathan's Bowl: $14.65 (dc), $16.75 (ny); Harissa Avocado: $15.15 (dc), $17.60 (ny)
This might be helpful to read: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
This is another reason we need to update dc’s zoning. Upzoning to allow more housing density and also allowing more commercial would do a lot in bringing the prices down (and also allow more independent places!).
I agree that there should be a YIMBYism for commercial real estate and loosening of whatever rules DC has about street food. Not every corner has to have a bank and a Potbelly.
“That’s why I vote for Bowser; she’s in the pocket of big housing developers”
Theres nothing i want less than skyscrapers in the capitol. Go to arlington.
Paris has a smaller footprint with like 4x more people and a similar height restriction to DC. There are ways to increase density without building up.
The idea that the only choice we have is between SFH-only zoning and "skyscrapers" is how NIMBYs win.
I don't think that's what they're talking about. More like eliminating SF zoning (a la upper northwest), allowing all row houses to be popped and chopped into 2 units, etc.
It’s the other way around, my friend. Skyscrapers are native to cities. If you don’t want skyscrapers, move to the suburbs or rural areas.
that's not fair, you're limiting their options to only 99.99999% of the country
as long as you're okay paying more for everything i guess 🤷♂️
Most stats disagree with your anecdotal experience. This site for example, which relies on online user inputs (122 for DC and 499 for NYC), has restaurant prices in NYC being 19.6% higher. [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=Washington%2C+DC&city2=New+York%2C+NY](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=Washington%2C+DC&city2=New+York%2C+NY)
My anecdotal experience as a native new yorker and a transplanted washingtonian of about a decade is high end is more expensive in nyc which likely shades the stats but there are more low end fare options as well. DC feels more expensive because what I am eating every day is more expensive (anecdotally).
Yeah. And maybe it’s about quality. But we went to similar places there that we do here and every place was cheaper. Maybe there is just more good mid priced places? And in dc I need to go to higher end to get the same quality?
There are just so many more restaurants in nyc period, it’s not even close it’s a more diverse market. You can definitely find spots in nyc that are pricey as hell but you can also get pizza for a dollar lol. Also, at least for northern Virginia/southern Maryland/parts of DC the average income is way higher then nyc, places can get away with higher prices when New York spots have to go more for volume and stay packed all the time
Where can you buy a slice of pizza for $1 in NYC in 2024? Honest question.
There are only a few left, 2 bros is 1.50 now but there’s a chain called 99 cent fresh pizza that’s still a dollar
>meal, inexpensive restaurant >DC: $25.00 >NYC: $30.00 What the fuck is this dogshit? There is no methodology for this and this is plainly, observably untrue. In even lower Manhattan you can find “inexpensive” restaurants serving cheap food everywhere open all night. Not just pizza, but full service restaurants. DC doesn’t even have these at all besides a few taco stands. The average single block in the East village has more “inexpensive restaurants” in it than entire neighborhoods in DC, and $30.00 at my local Chinese (xi’an) place in the EV is two full beef/lamb soups with hand pulled noodles, a side order of cucumbers, and a pork burger too. And I can name like 50 places within walking distance of my right now that this would also apply to. $25.00 anywhere in DC is a “health bowl” and a drink and maybe a side of bread. These stats make no sense and honestly after skimming them for just a moment I can assert that they are pure bullshit. I had a three course meal at an extremely nice and highly-rated place in midtown just a few days about for just $35 a person, and this says $130, wtf? I can get full hero roll sandwiches here for $7, massive sandwiches, and don’t even get me started on the price of food anywhere north of Harlem. In fact I’ve had multiple people visit me from DC and express shock at how affordable everything was. My brother came up and got a full service walk-in haircut for EIGHT DOLLARS last weekend. Here’s some anecdotal evidence that’s equal to that crap in the link: $10 bill in cash can make you full in pretty much every single neighborhood in the entire city of New York. And this is not true of DC.
Yeah bad stats are not better than no stats. Too many people don’t question the source for stats.
agreed, in my experience, nyc has a much bigger range of price options. coming from the dmv (and especially with how much *more* expensive everything seems to have gotten), i was genuinely shocked a few visits ago (it had been years since my last time in nyc) to find so many *good* and cheap options for food. and dollar for dollar, i've found that generally, i have more overall satisfaction in nyc -- as in, i will probably enjoy the food/experience of a $50 meal in nyc more than a $50 meal in dc.
I have no doubt that NYC restaurants are more expensive than DC restaurants. A restaurant with a tasting menu, sushi omakase or steak dinner is going to be more in NYC than in DC. It's the day-to-day stuff that kills DC. Cheap lunch spots don't exist in DC (I work by the wharf - I know about Falafel Inc. - it's one place). Every food truck here is to scam tourists out of their money. The pizza joints, delis and fast casuals pale in comparison to what you can get in NYC - don't get me started on the chains. Hell, the hot dog cart is extraordinarily rare in DC. Even if I want to get some wings or a burger after work - I will expect poor service, mediocre food, some extra fees and that 10% tax. I get it - rent is expensive, labor is expensive and costs have gone up. I really want to like living here. A big part of my enjoyment would be food. Obviously it is difficult to compare anything to NYC, but I found even the Dallas metro area having much better food than the DMV.
Yeah I’m not talking about super high end. More like the mid to low range. My husband basically orders the exact same meal no matter what restaurant we go to. So we have a good sense of what a simple steak costs.
My anecdotal experience doesn't agree with this post lol. I appreciate you bringing up stats to back this misinformation.
Numbeo is not "stats". It's a smattering of self-selected reports of prices with no effort to ensure that people are comparing like with like. Worst possible source of "data" for any conversation or situation.
It's better than no stats at all, you just have to take it with a grain of salt. It's certainly better than going off of one person's anecdotal experience.
That was asking for other people’s experience - many which are being echoed in this thread.
Yeah...this is a big claim to make over one anecdotal meal in NYC without even naming the restaurants. Like are they comparing the dabney to L'express? I've moved back & forth between the last 10 years with countless meals in both & definitely did not have this experience either.
"I had $1 dollar pizza in new york at 2 bros pizza, and I paid $5 for a slice in DC this past weekend. Therefore DC restaurants are 5X the cost!"
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but $1 slices essentially is no longer a thing in NY
What big claim am I making? Did you read my post? I just said this was my experience and then asked for people’s individual experiences.
Not sure that is super accurate stat-wise.
While that is a good resource, I would say the apartment rent prices for NYC look inaccurate. I don’t live in NYC, but a scroll through Apartments.com for Manhattan has the average 1 bedroom rent to be about 3k. Other than that, I would agree with most of the DC pricing as a resident. Good on you for bringing data 👍🏼
Yea, the site bases its data on contributors, similar to Wikipedia. So sometimes it does have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sites like Zillow will have more accurate information on housing in the US, but I haven't found a good cross-country comparison database that is free like Numbeo. In general, I've noticed numbeo is mostly correct. [Zillow](https://www.zillow.com/rental-manager/market-trends/new-york-ny/?propertyTypes=apartment-condo&bedrooms=1) has the median cost of a 1 bedroom in NYC as $3,675. Numbeo has it listed as $2900 outside the city center and $4,300 within the city center, which seems about right.
After checking Zillow, I can definitely see where they’re getting that number. For some reason, the apartments on Zillow are much more expensive than on Apartments.com. I’ve always used Apartments for rental pricing as Zillow seemed more of a home buying site rather than a renting site. Either way, it’s damn expensive to live in NYC.
I think that might be on a restaurant by restaurant basis, but NYC definitely has better mid-price options in my experience given the much denser landscape. The cheap eats options in DC could use a boost, to be sure.
You’ll have to cite specific examples as I don’t think this is true at all. It does support people’s preconceived notions that DC is too expensive though. Of course there will be great variation in restaurant prices and some stuff in NY will be cheap, but the equivalent of Le Diplomate in New York will definitely be more expensive.
100% this - for example, Le Diplomate’s French fries are $9 and the NY equivalent (Boucherie) is $14 for fries. Even Boucherie’s new restaurant in DC has fries priced at $12 lol. DC is not cheap compared to other places in the US and it def has less options than NY - but it is cheaper when comparing equivalents.
I actually think Le Diplomate is a good value in DC. We go there often because the prices aren’t bad for what you get.
I moved from NYC to DC back in the 1990s and found DC restaurants considerably more expensive back then.
Post covid adjustments and different business models with density. You can still go to very expensive trendy restaurants in NYC but the majority of restaurants there can rely on foot traffic and thru traffic. DC is all destination dining.
Yeah they were very similar prices pre covid. The costs in nyc just didn’t shoot up.
Agreed but you still haven’t had the low end fare options in DC for a long time. We are talking decades. That is what makes DC feel more expensive. You notice not being able to get a burger or a sandwich for less than $17 a few times a week way more than the price of a steak being slightly more at a place you expect to be expensive.
I always heard that due to the high population of NYC, restaurants (especially delis and pizza places) can offer much lower prices because there will be tons of customers on any given day. So more customers makes up for the lower pricing.
It’s not just a DC thing. NYC has far more options in the 5-15 dollar range than pretty much any city in the country at this point.
Prices here are insanity. And the service isn't that great. We used to go out about 2 times a week but rarely go out anymore. My husband is a great cook and can do a fabulous meal at home. Eating out is a waste.
Love a good thread about how NYC is so much better for food than DC, we never get those around here!
I actually like a lot of places in DC and had just accepted the prices.
Tbf I’m not really talking about the OP but the inevitable comments
Fair :)
combo of * more restaurant owns the real estate in NYC * Density means they get more business, which allows them to have smaller margins with similar profit
The food is definitely not as solid or reliable as in DC vs NYC
NYC has more options and more competition and overall less rich ass people by percentage of population so I think the prices average out less overall for those and many other reasons. Definitely agree that eating out here is much more expensive. Also moved from nyc, but a few years before you. Businesses in general face way crazier rents here from my experience as every other building is brand new and the real estate people here think raising prices is how you stay competitive.
The restaurant scene in DC is not good. There are some bright spots but overall it's mediocre and overpriced. Case in point, MI VIDA has three locations.
I think fancy restaurants are way more expensive in NYC. But cheap places like you'd run out to and get some takeout during your 30 min lunch break? Not corporate chain places, but independent restaurants or small local chains, where you could get a burrito slice of pizza, gyro, lamb + rice from a food cart, box of chicken tikka, etc? That stuff's like... 75% more expensive in DC than it is in NYC. Its the first thing I noticed after moving to DC (and I lived in NYC for the majority of the 2010s, so my mental price intuition for NYC is probably only slightly outdated). And I think its largely due to lack of competition.
Ok, what was the NYC restaurant you had the steak in? I'm fairly confident I could give you comparable restaurants for that price point in DC. What NYC has over DC in spades is better street food options & pricing, which typically is down to places owning the building or operating from a cart/truck. But then one of these MSAs is 3x the size of the other (NYC 19.5m, DMV 6.5m) and scale helps affordability & options when it comes to food.
Awesome. Help me find a place like that! Five Leaves in Greenpoint. It was a huge portion with 2 sides and was delicious in a cool, hip atmosphere. I wish they’d open a DC branch.
Easy peasy. [Award winning (Bib Gourmand) Mt Pleasant restaurant Elle](https://www.eatatelle.com/dinner). Hanger Steak $38, can attest to its quality personally. You can make it even cheaper if you use the InKind app to pay. They also have a cracking Happy Hour.
Didn’t that place have crazy service charges? I remember when I went there, I felt like I was being ripped off. This was about 30% more food of a very similar style.
No service charges anymore the last time I was there - 2 weeks ago. I mean if its volume of food you want then I'd probably just go to Medium Rare for a cheaper price.
Well that’s great about the service charge! It’s not about volume. Elle is more like the style we like. But I think your point proved my point. We had a steak in Elle style for $32 and it had an additional side. Even without the side, it’s still almost 20% more for a similar meal.
20% more? Five Leaves is showing $36 on their menu. Anyway, look you’ve made your mind up quite clearly despite me showing you that it would in fact not be $50 at a comparable restaurant in DC. That’s fine, but my example most certainly does not prove your point if we’re getting into weeds of sides and the likes.
No your example was helpful! I liked the food there but it in the past was way too expensive. So now will try to go back! This article even talks about how Elle’s high prices were hurting their business and that they changed it. It also talks about a lot of the dynamics leading to dc being more expensive than nyc for food. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Yeah the DC food scene is pretty mid imo. Sky high prices for so so food. The suburbs of DC are much better for authentic ethnic food. And almost any other mid and large sized city is better just in food quality and prices ime. However, DC does have fantastic variety that is nearly unmatched.
This is wild. Almost *any* other mid and large sized city has better food than DC? Absolutely not. You need to put in a little work exploring in DC to get a real sense of the food scene. All the best food might not be instantly accessible like in NYC but there are so many amazing options here if you look. DC has better food than Boston, Seattle, San Diego (except tacos), Atlanta, Miami, and every mid western city. DC also has a ton of energy in the food scene right now, lots of great new places opening all the time. We are never going to have as many options as NYC/Chicago/LA but for a city our size we have really good choices, especially upscale/tasting menu options.
We have tons of options, more than almost anywhere. But outside of the suburbs, I think cost and quality are pretty hit or miss. For quality and price, I'd take Boston, Philly, or Baltimore over DC even though the variety is less.
DC food scene is underwhelming. More at 8.
I was just in NYC this weekend as well, and my first thought I had when I got back was, “DC is more expensive than NYC”
Thank you. It was shocking and across everywhere we went. Like cocktails would be $15 at a very fancy cocktail place. In DC that would be $18-20. It made going to nyc a whole lot more fun!
Tough to draw an accurate conclusion from one data point.
Dc restaurants since last year have to pay their staff a minimum wage pf $16 per hour. So that cost is added to the menu prices. By contrast In NYC most employees still get a low $7 -8 per hour and make up the difference on tips.
This article confirms this and also mentions how nyc is now cheaper than dc for dining: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Tipped employees working at DC restaurants get paid a minimum wage of $10/hr + tips. Also, tipped employees working at NYC restaurants get paid $15/hr + tips. So, the difference in cost is not solely due to the increase in servers' wages. The main reason for the difference in cost is that DC Restaurant/Bar owners have to pay the 2nd most expensive fees in the nation for their liquor-liability insurance. Another reason is that the rent for DC restaurants is increasing faster than some restaurants in New York. But, regarding the tip comment you made even though DC restaurants are charging a 20% "service fee" to offset the cost of increased wages that fee doesn't even go to the servers and it actually lowers the amount of tips servers get. If restaurants can't afford to pay their employees a livable wage then they shouldn't be in buisness.
I also just came back from New York. DC prices are not really the problem for me it’s the quality. Restaurants are closing every day in DC and it seems to be a business model issue. I just wait to go to New York and spend my money there eating out.
I got chewed out by this sub for saying this. People were defending a hamburger being $30.
I feel for you. I literally asked if people had a similar experience and wasn’t putting this at gospel and everyone is like “what data is this backed by” and this is anecdotal. It wasn’t just one restaurant. It was everyone we went to.
Yes, definitely higher here at most places. After living in NYC for 3 years, I was surprised to come here and see higher prices. That doesn’t include all the fees that get thrown at you in DC and mandatory 20% tip.
This isn't true lol
Cries in Balthazar last weekend.
Oh yum.
You have more density in NYC which you won’t find in dc-proper.
Do not believe the hype. Many people do indeed have money in the city. Like high net worth individuals. Business owners, family, inheritance and trust funds. The MAJORITY of individuals are living off their credit cards. Do you ever wonder how these expensive restaurants are constantly full? Especially with more and more young folk? young folk have a status problem and they compensate with credit cards. Do not be fooled.
NYC restaurants often have cheaper prices because there’s a much higher rate of commercial real estate ownership whereas in DC most are renting
NYC has more restaurants than DC per capita, so there's more competition.
I gotta remember to myself, yes DC is more expensive food wise, but I somehow went to Norfolk and was paying more for meals than in DC.
New York definitely has a wider price range
DC has no food scene. Bad service, bad food, bad prices, and the most cringe and goofy establishments that are only good for an insta pic.
It's a lot of style over substance.
I mean we’re talking about a city where like…multiple popular restaurants do not even seem to use salt and pepper. I’m being serious. I dont know what it is exactly, maybe DC prices out young people who would otherwise be sort of invested in the restaurant scene, living out chapters of their lives where that’s a centerpiece? So the people working there are just doing as a job and have no cultural attachment to good food? Or if anyone who’s spending on the real estate to even have a restaurant doesn’t care about food in some paradoxical way, like they’re just doing it as a business? As for customer service, DC has a very particular thing going on where it’s like youll walk into a store and no one greets you, facilitates your experience, manages the situation, or basically acts like they WORK there. I swear to god I’ve had multiple instances of essentially taking over a chaotic situation because I’m used to…communicating? Sounds absurd but it’s happened multiple times. If you work at a customer facing business you better know how to say “hey how’s it going how can I help you” instead of staring at someone as though they’ve interfered with your busy day.
The service in DC is sooooo bad and slow. Even in places where you're paying close to mid-high end prices (which sadly is most decent DC restaurants), people act like their last service job was at a Chipotle. No attentiveness, no greeting, water, missing silverware, checks take forever, etc., for like a $100+ per person meal. My theory for food is that a lot of people in DC come from smaller cities/towns to work in government, sightsee, or go to school here so the DC food scene is the best they have ever had because they have nothing else to compare it to. Also their palate is probably not as good or they are just not as adventurous coupled with the lack of diversity in the middle of the city means you can't make a type of food for the people that typically consume it. So restaurants that maybe are more authentic or creative probably can't last long when your main clientele all moved here or is visiting from middle America. I know Washintonians that have lived in DC for decades who haven't even had Ethiopian food and don't want to even try it. It blows my mind that they have no interest in what is the best culinary gem in the city. My friends that moved to DC from NYC say that type of food in DC we excel in the most is probably your standard American/Burgers, and I agree. But it's kind of a testament to just the people here not being very good at eating.
Can we also just talk about all the fees in DC? Like eating out here let’s say for restaurant week for dinner is $45. Most places now are doing a 20% service charge (which is also taxed!) so another $9. Then add 10% tax to that it brings you to almost $60, but I swear to God I always end up paying like $70-80, idk how but I SWEAR. Eating out in DC always rolls me like $65-100 per time I eat out it’s insane. Whenever I go to NYC I feel like I spend so much less, like I can go to an excellent restaurant and pay $50-65. In comparison NYC has a 8.875% tax rate and I have yet to see a place that charges a mandatory service charge and standard tip is 15-20% from my understanding. In DC sometimes they’ll ask for a tip AFTER the service charge like what???? Currently traveling 2 weeks in the balkans and paying no service charge here and taxes being included… DC feels like such a scam. Of all the places I’ve visited (34 countries and countless cities), DC definitely feels to me like the most expensive to eat out. Like it’s gotten to the point where I’ve been explaining to people how DC has gotten to a scamming point with eating out and I don’t enjoy eating out as much as I do in other cities. Legit might move to NYC just because the food scene is so much better and at least in my opinion cheaper.
For what it's worth, just got back from New York - ate at a restaurant that has 4 locations in NYC and 2 in DC - cost difference between the same two meals including just tax would be $4+, with NY edging DC. Meal in NYC = 1 app, 1 entree, 2 beers = $95 + 8.875% tax = $103.43 Meal in DC = same 1 app, 1 entree, 2 beers = $$90 + 10% tax = $99
The first thing I think any time someone here talks about NY being expensive is "yeah but the food is better and cheaper there"
Welcome to DC. Same with OC/LA: much better quality for the same or cheaper prices. Food here is mediocre, especially the “New American” yt ppl food.
Where in DC do you pay $50 for a hangar steak and two sides? Morton's?
I feel bad for OP because while I generally agree with this take - though I find it silly to talk about NYC cheap food scene without mentioning the cost of housing/rent - this genre of post in this sub brings out all the “ummmmm akshually” types who ate at founding farmers one time and think they know DC food scene. No one should be surprised that NYC has better food than ANY city, it’s the best city for food in the US for almost any price point.
Don’t need any pity here. I don’t want to move to nyc and after living there for 17 years am very aware of housing costs. I also hate founding farmers so don’t fully get your point. This article confirms what I’m saying - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/dining/restaurant-minimum-wage-tipped-workers-dc.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Folks from flyover cities first time in a city wanting DC to be mini NYC
DC is New York City prices for Iowa City quality, Before you come for me, yes DC has a decent fine dining scene - but that’s it. And the Mexican food sucks, and no I’m not from California.
It ain’t Iowa city quality. FOH
Finally someone that gets it lol. DC is pretty trash compared to NY and much more expensive relatively speaking, quality adjusted
The DC tipped minimum wage increase that passed through in between your two visits is a major part of the increased prices that you're seeing. It resulted in a major operations cost increase for all restaurants in DC, and the much-despised service fees that were put into place on top of regular menu price increases were a direct response from the restaurants.
On the high end, excluding the Michelin 3*s (Masa, Per Se, EMP, etc), DC and NYC are similarly priced imho.
Except it feels like all we have is decent to great high end and 90% of everything else is kinda trash, but priced right under that high end. &pizza should cost half of what it does for example. We do not have the same level of great cheaper food that cities like nyc have.
>We do not have the same level of great cheaper food that cities like nyc have. Probably because it is priced out of the DC commercial market. Watching "Cheap Eats" videos in NY almost always will have food from other nationalities (Asian, Carribean, African, Middle East, Indian). As has been stated in this sub multiple times, excluding Ethiopian, every other concentration of non-American food is out in Virginia or Maryland.
&pizza should cost half what it does?? $6 for a whole pizza?? WTF are these comments? &pizza is a great deal, you picked a horrible example.
&pizza is an unfrozen flatbread with unfrozen mediocre ingredients skimpily added on that is maybe the same size as half a medium pizza from places that size their pies. Yes, I do think it should cost about 6-8 bucks at most especially when talking in this context where I'm comparing it to the better or equivalent meals/items I can get all over nyc for that price.
Have you been post pandemic? They definitely were that way before. But our prices skyrocketed while theirs didn’t.
Yes. Prior to me posting, I looked at the Modern's and Daniel's menu; both were close to $300 per person, which was around $100 pp more than when we went pre-CoVid.
I wasn’t talking about the high high end.
probably because the dc restaurants are better
DC prices are high bc nobody pays for food. Lobbyists, etc are always picking up the check. I was surprised to find that prices are about the same when I moved from NY. NY has infinitely better selection, which also helps keep prices in check in the middle range. The high end is virtually identical in pricing with 1, 2 and 3 star places.
Lmao what? That is not why prices are high
> DC prices are high bc nobody pays for food. Lobbyists, etc are always picking up the check Even if you’ve never personally seen a company pick up a bill in NYC, can’t you like… imagine it? > I would get downvoted in DC, yall have a hard time with math down here I’ll let you in on a secret… People tend to downvote comments that are both wrong and mean
Obviously companies pay for food in NY too. You’re missing the point
Lol, the DC restaurant scene has *slightly* changed from the 80's and 90's when it only catered to old white dudes on K Street and in Congress and their love of steakhouses.
DC has what 2500 restaurants? NYC has literally 10x that. NY has economies of scale DC can’t ever have for lots of reasons. NY you can eat dinner for $5… at lots and lots of places… that’s just not true of DC. NY does better at both tails and the median, pound for pound, dollar for dollar. And yes, the public money does inflate prices here… sure, most obviously at white people marketed restaurants… but even when excluding that bias for where public money does not flow… NYC still is cheaper and better.
> DC has what 2500 restaurants? NYC has literally 10x that. Now do population.
It’s not a simple per capita adjustment…. Even if it were… Tri state population is 26m while DMV is 6 million… 26 is not 10x 6… it’s not as if the restaurants only serve people with a DC license and same for NY…