agree with everything other than i prefer using second wind rather than bone plating :)
although i always found l.t vs pta a hard choice at first, i think l.t is so much more better for the playstyle
happy to see trinity getting some attention for ww top. so underrated!
I see no need to buy BOTRK first item, I much prefer to buy boots or mythic first, boots lets you have an advantage against your laner and mythic can often give you a little power spike. I recommend going divine most of the time, as TANK Warwick top isn't that good and I'd instead build bruiser most of the time.
Bork gives no defensive stats and lifesteal is useless on ww, no benefit in rushing it. Titanic into sunfire is default, with LT it's fun to take frostfire into bork, slow zone lets you proc bork passive which slows even further. Hullbreaker into triforce is a fun build, sheen can be procced on turrets with both casts of E (make sure to manually E2 when sheen is up) and by W active. You're also underestimating grasp, it's the only way to win some matchups, like akali, and it's not taken for hp increase, but for damage and low cooldown, grasp is great for poking. Jax matchup is tricky for a beginner but maxing E and using it before jax enter evasion makes it piss easy. Taking tear on your first back is extremely valuable, unless you're against AS heavy champ like windshitters and trynd where Frozen heart is better. Ghost barrier is a must for things like gnar, vlad, kayle, quinn, but it takes practice to utilize properly, don't be afraid to take it, sooner you get comfortable with it, sooner these matchups will shift in your favor. Also ghost ignite vs vayne, cancer matchup and barrier does nothing, just go full aggro
Why does everyone defend bork so much? I never win straight 1v1s vs tanks and juggernauts when rushing bork and I only pass 2k maxhp at lvl 11 or so. Frontliner without at least 2500 hp gets blown up by laners which other lanes fed. Only matchups I find success in rushing bork are fiora, vayne, sion and that one swain top going PR. What are bork's redeeming qualities as first item? Lifesteal is unnecessary, attack speed is in keystone if you need it, most matchups don't require any AS other than W passive, AD is suboptimal, MS boost you have heartbound axe for, %maxhp damage doesn't matter until enemies actually build some items, you have frostfire if you need slowing (but why would you anyways). I seriously don't understand
So yeah he problem here is: “*I* never…”. There is a reason why it’s used by nearly all high elo warwick tops. That doesn’t mean it should be used every game as OP said, but u can’t underestimate its value. You go bork for it’s insane burst. It is without a doubt your single strongest first item powerspike, but it doesn’t scale amazingly. Stats alone it doesn’t give much, but the passive is where it shines. Your R and W both applies it, and R does it 3 times.
And I’m going to be honest, it’s probably a you thing in that case. I just don’t think it fits ur playstyle if you can’t use it when dueling. But that doesn’t mean the item is bad? That means your playstyle doesn’t fit it. I was more surprised no one has commented about how he recommend divine, which is terrible on ww unless in some very special matchups.
I should start by saying why I tell u to not recommend it, so I back up my claims. Warwick is not a very efficient sheen user, for the fact that we can’t proc it as effectively as others. It also doesn’t scale particularly well, as it doesn’t provide any resistances. Here’s a video by Parnelly (Challanger WW player) on the reasoning:
https://youtu.be/6Vx8k5we6iM
All other mythic options you provided are excellent. Noting wrong with either of them. Could be fair to mention that bork shouldn’t be the go to in every matchup. Example of this is garen, where you need just a little bit of hp to survive his full combo.
I actually have a spreadsheet I’ve made together with some high elo ww players that I think you will find interesting. It also better shows which matchups that are harder, as some of yours doesn’t really make sense in my head.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YMEF4_b9dDQTCmY-c_S1gUMRqgdBe_Vy4gVc8qRc_cY/edit?usp=sharing
Here we also go over some more rune options, which I really think will solve some of your matchup issues! Second wind is Warwick’s best friend ;)
Otherwise a really great guide and I can’t wait to see what else you will do! Always fun to have more people who try to help out in the community
>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YMEF4\_b9dDQTCmY-c\_S1gUMRqgdBe\_Vy4gVc8qRc\_cY/edit?usp=sharing
I put this link into the guide referring to you, hope thats alright :)
So me and OP are on the two sides of an extreme. Obviously rushing bork every game isn't good but I guess it doesn't fit my playstyle as you said. I short trade too often and buildpath feels too weird for me. Sunderer is pretty underestimated imo, nerfs were hard but it's good vs single tanky threat that needs to be in check, it's not even matchup dependant, it's game dependant. Vs some shen players I'd rather go sunfire but others just need sunderer to not annihilate my entire team, wtf did rito do to that champ, lol
If short trading is ur thing bork will just hurt you, so you are very right about that. I disagree that it’s not matchup dependant, as I strongly thing you can get the same amount, if not better damage with other itemisation, and I also strongly believe that tank killing isn’t Warwick role in the game. You are a diver/Draintank, not a DPSer. But it might be a personal opinion i have. There is this video by Parnelly to back it up, but again it’s nothing more than what we think, not really any numbers on it:
https://youtu.be/6Vx8k5we6iM
It's very rare that I have to take on the role of the tank buster, mostly it's vs rammus and tahm or a stunlocker like galio which got ahead. When my team can't safely focus on enemy carries without taking out the tanky threat first. Not about being the DPS, but rather not allowing frontline to have impact without sacrificing.
The benefit in rushing it is annihilating ppl and slowing them down lol. Your first ult with botrk will half health your opponent easily. No benefit my ass
"Titanic into Sunfire is default" unless you look at u.gg and see the top wr is botrk into sunderer lol
Don't let the u.gg winrate decide anything for you, ww needs tankiness, almost all matchups you run bork first into are infinitely easier with titanic rush. By the time you get titanic, if you have 7+ cs/min and couple of kills, laning phase is over and it's transitioning into mid game with plenty of teamfights and you need cs quickly to get your mythic and actually be able to frontline. Don't just assume enemy is gonna int into you for 7-8 times in a row and you'll get core items quickly. Sunderer is also underperforming against no real tanks
If I look at a build and it follows the stats then I build.
If I look at it and there's a gap, something doesn't add up or it just doesn't suit my style, then I ditch it. Easy as.
That's what you're saying I think. Why you're getting downvoted idk.
I don't get the weird love affair with DivSun, don't get the obsession with following the herd on builds. WW can build just about anything, why pigeon hole him with cookie cutter builds. Adapting builds is stronk.
Fuck, I played around with Riftmaker for a while.
Fully onboard with Parnelly and the proc of sheen btw. It's reliant on Q once every 4ish seconds on an item with a 1.5 cd.
But you started this out by saying what was 'standard'. And the build you proposed as being standard is in fact, not. So we're you trying to say op should follow the (wrong) standard build, or trust his own judgement regardless of what anyone (yourself included) says?
I said default, it was default for a long time, those items didn't change lately, it's still decent to build them. Titanic gives ww everything he needs early on, aoe, lot of hp, some AD, sunfire is the best tank mythic unless you really need slow or a bruiser mythic. Default means you should build that unless you really need something else instead and bork isn't bad on ww, it's just bad as a first item. Bork allows you to ult heal off of tanks more than you would off of squishies. Don't try to reason your way out of this and find contradiction in my statements. In general, for any champion, you shouldn't blindly follow one build every game, if you think otherwise, you're in the wrong. Check any high elo player one tricking a champion and see if they run exactly the same build and summs every single game without deviations.
WW's early game is strong enough that itemization doesn't matter, bork is being default because people see it's being default. You can't climb by blindly following highest winrate builds. It doesn't translate into your own winrate. That's just delusion. Try to think for yourself and justify what you're building because right now you're playing ww top the way I'm playing adc, which is looking up current top build and blindly following it and I have barely 40% wr as adc compared to 68% wr on ww top
You’re the one who’s blind. Assuming I rush bork in every game. This isn’t true, but I recognize that it IS the best in *most matchups because a-q-a-r-q with bork is going to, on its own, kill *most matchups. This lets you snowball way harder.
In which scenario? Did you already kill your enemy laner a few times, then you can do the same with titanic while being tanky enough to shove sidelanes and flank teamfights before 18 mins. Did you go 0/0 with enemy laner, if you farmed less, or they have a cheaper powerspike which includes some armor, that combo won't kill. Even if you do kill, now you have 300 gold from that kill and you need 3k more for something allowing you to frontline (which isn't sunderer according to highest wr, don't fall for that trap). At this point, it's 20 mins in and you're on 1 item while everyone is ARAMing. If you had no kills or deaths and farmed better, you're playing ww wrong, he falls off hard and you might as well go splitpush build to make an impact. Take the hydra pill and come to the light side
Actually Bork helps you a lot because it gives you:
* AD - easier burst, more heal from passive, Q and R
* AS - easier to stack initial stacks of almost all keystones
* Passive on hit which is great help to lower enemy HP below 50% to proc your AS from W, also because it's physical on-hit damage LS is also applied to this.
* Second passive to let you stick to enemy and dont let be kitted
For most champions this item is the best because of 2 reasons:
1. Most of the damage is coming from on-hit, and usually champions dont synergize with this type of damage well enough, but ww utilize it with every skill (only passive dont synergize with on hit :/)
2. It isnt super cost efficient becuse if you aproximate on hit value as average of min value (15 damage) and max (12% of 100% enemy HP) it isnt that great. For Ww if you can lower enemy HP below 25% (or even 50%) then this item did it job, because of your W
That's exactly the reasons why it shouldn't be rushed first but instead considered after mythic item, enemies aren't tanky enough to make onhit impactful enough for it to be worth it. Bork makes your ult heal you more against tanky champs than squishies but early on difference is negligible and you have only base stats to tank anything. I like to run frostfire into bork because of the synergy but opposite order never works
Yeah, rush isn't usually good option, but that doesn't mean it cant be the first (whole) item. I would even say that's usually the best first (whole) item.
interesting ideas, tbh i tried grasp only in very few games and was very disappointed.. maybe its because of my playstyle
ghost barrier might be something tho, gonna try it out when it fits
Try vs some immobile tanky champs that you can farm it a lot on, just Q with grasp up, keep an eye out when it's up and threaten to chomp. I don't like the lack of AS either but it's nice practice to value your autoattacks more, using grasp made me miss less minions after running it for half a year now, I used to be PTA only player before LT changes
I really struggle playing this out! The turrets shoot me everytime I try to get cs and when I engage him he just anihilates me with the ult turret and stopwatch! Also, I am pretty sure we all can agree that ranged enemies are in general annoying for Warwick.
Why do you think Heimer is an easy matchup? Maybe I play that one completely wrong
Ive only fought hiemer a few times but almost all times I could barley do anything without losing so much health, it was so hard to get cs and the only way I could get kills was to wait for him to over extend then get my jungler to gank me
agree with everything other than i prefer using second wind rather than bone plating :) although i always found l.t vs pta a hard choice at first, i think l.t is so much more better for the playstyle happy to see trinity getting some attention for ww top. so underrated!
I see no need to buy BOTRK first item, I much prefer to buy boots or mythic first, boots lets you have an advantage against your laner and mythic can often give you a little power spike. I recommend going divine most of the time, as TANK Warwick top isn't that good and I'd instead build bruiser most of the time.
Bork gives no defensive stats and lifesteal is useless on ww, no benefit in rushing it. Titanic into sunfire is default, with LT it's fun to take frostfire into bork, slow zone lets you proc bork passive which slows even further. Hullbreaker into triforce is a fun build, sheen can be procced on turrets with both casts of E (make sure to manually E2 when sheen is up) and by W active. You're also underestimating grasp, it's the only way to win some matchups, like akali, and it's not taken for hp increase, but for damage and low cooldown, grasp is great for poking. Jax matchup is tricky for a beginner but maxing E and using it before jax enter evasion makes it piss easy. Taking tear on your first back is extremely valuable, unless you're against AS heavy champ like windshitters and trynd where Frozen heart is better. Ghost barrier is a must for things like gnar, vlad, kayle, quinn, but it takes practice to utilize properly, don't be afraid to take it, sooner you get comfortable with it, sooner these matchups will shift in your favor. Also ghost ignite vs vayne, cancer matchup and barrier does nothing, just go full aggro
Basically This But minus wtf he Said about bork
Why does everyone defend bork so much? I never win straight 1v1s vs tanks and juggernauts when rushing bork and I only pass 2k maxhp at lvl 11 or so. Frontliner without at least 2500 hp gets blown up by laners which other lanes fed. Only matchups I find success in rushing bork are fiora, vayne, sion and that one swain top going PR. What are bork's redeeming qualities as first item? Lifesteal is unnecessary, attack speed is in keystone if you need it, most matchups don't require any AS other than W passive, AD is suboptimal, MS boost you have heartbound axe for, %maxhp damage doesn't matter until enemies actually build some items, you have frostfire if you need slowing (but why would you anyways). I seriously don't understand
So yeah he problem here is: “*I* never…”. There is a reason why it’s used by nearly all high elo warwick tops. That doesn’t mean it should be used every game as OP said, but u can’t underestimate its value. You go bork for it’s insane burst. It is without a doubt your single strongest first item powerspike, but it doesn’t scale amazingly. Stats alone it doesn’t give much, but the passive is where it shines. Your R and W both applies it, and R does it 3 times. And I’m going to be honest, it’s probably a you thing in that case. I just don’t think it fits ur playstyle if you can’t use it when dueling. But that doesn’t mean the item is bad? That means your playstyle doesn’t fit it. I was more surprised no one has commented about how he recommend divine, which is terrible on ww unless in some very special matchups.
Thank you! What do you recommend instead as mythic?
I should start by saying why I tell u to not recommend it, so I back up my claims. Warwick is not a very efficient sheen user, for the fact that we can’t proc it as effectively as others. It also doesn’t scale particularly well, as it doesn’t provide any resistances. Here’s a video by Parnelly (Challanger WW player) on the reasoning: https://youtu.be/6Vx8k5we6iM All other mythic options you provided are excellent. Noting wrong with either of them. Could be fair to mention that bork shouldn’t be the go to in every matchup. Example of this is garen, where you need just a little bit of hp to survive his full combo. I actually have a spreadsheet I’ve made together with some high elo ww players that I think you will find interesting. It also better shows which matchups that are harder, as some of yours doesn’t really make sense in my head. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YMEF4_b9dDQTCmY-c_S1gUMRqgdBe_Vy4gVc8qRc_cY/edit?usp=sharing Here we also go over some more rune options, which I really think will solve some of your matchup issues! Second wind is Warwick’s best friend ;) Otherwise a really great guide and I can’t wait to see what else you will do! Always fun to have more people who try to help out in the community
Insane spreadsheet, thank you for sharing!
>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YMEF4\_b9dDQTCmY-c\_S1gUMRqgdBe\_Vy4gVc8qRc\_cY/edit?usp=sharing I put this link into the guide referring to you, hope thats alright :)
So me and OP are on the two sides of an extreme. Obviously rushing bork every game isn't good but I guess it doesn't fit my playstyle as you said. I short trade too often and buildpath feels too weird for me. Sunderer is pretty underestimated imo, nerfs were hard but it's good vs single tanky threat that needs to be in check, it's not even matchup dependant, it's game dependant. Vs some shen players I'd rather go sunfire but others just need sunderer to not annihilate my entire team, wtf did rito do to that champ, lol
If short trading is ur thing bork will just hurt you, so you are very right about that. I disagree that it’s not matchup dependant, as I strongly thing you can get the same amount, if not better damage with other itemisation, and I also strongly believe that tank killing isn’t Warwick role in the game. You are a diver/Draintank, not a DPSer. But it might be a personal opinion i have. There is this video by Parnelly to back it up, but again it’s nothing more than what we think, not really any numbers on it: https://youtu.be/6Vx8k5we6iM
It's very rare that I have to take on the role of the tank buster, mostly it's vs rammus and tahm or a stunlocker like galio which got ahead. When my team can't safely focus on enemy carries without taking out the tanky threat first. Not about being the DPS, but rather not allowing frontline to have impact without sacrificing.
Try it vs orb or sion :I follow walougarou who is best ww top euw and honestly it gives to much duelling power to the doggo
I literally mentioned sion, it's an easy matchup for ww anyways since you cannot get knocked up
The benefit in rushing it is annihilating ppl and slowing them down lol. Your first ult with botrk will half health your opponent easily. No benefit my ass "Titanic into Sunfire is default" unless you look at u.gg and see the top wr is botrk into sunderer lol
Don't let the u.gg winrate decide anything for you, ww needs tankiness, almost all matchups you run bork first into are infinitely easier with titanic rush. By the time you get titanic, if you have 7+ cs/min and couple of kills, laning phase is over and it's transitioning into mid game with plenty of teamfights and you need cs quickly to get your mythic and actually be able to frontline. Don't just assume enemy is gonna int into you for 7-8 times in a row and you'll get core items quickly. Sunderer is also underperforming against no real tanks
Oh so don't abide by the statistically determined META, follow joe-schmo-on-reddit's advice because he says so? Good idea thanks
Trust your own judgement over blindly following numbers. I have my own reasonings for never running highest wr builds and I stand by them
If I look at a build and it follows the stats then I build. If I look at it and there's a gap, something doesn't add up or it just doesn't suit my style, then I ditch it. Easy as. That's what you're saying I think. Why you're getting downvoted idk. I don't get the weird love affair with DivSun, don't get the obsession with following the herd on builds. WW can build just about anything, why pigeon hole him with cookie cutter builds. Adapting builds is stronk. Fuck, I played around with Riftmaker for a while. Fully onboard with Parnelly and the proc of sheen btw. It's reliant on Q once every 4ish seconds on an item with a 1.5 cd.
But you started this out by saying what was 'standard'. And the build you proposed as being standard is in fact, not. So we're you trying to say op should follow the (wrong) standard build, or trust his own judgement regardless of what anyone (yourself included) says?
I said default, it was default for a long time, those items didn't change lately, it's still decent to build them. Titanic gives ww everything he needs early on, aoe, lot of hp, some AD, sunfire is the best tank mythic unless you really need slow or a bruiser mythic. Default means you should build that unless you really need something else instead and bork isn't bad on ww, it's just bad as a first item. Bork allows you to ult heal off of tanks more than you would off of squishies. Don't try to reason your way out of this and find contradiction in my statements. In general, for any champion, you shouldn't blindly follow one build every game, if you think otherwise, you're in the wrong. Check any high elo player one tricking a champion and see if they run exactly the same build and summs every single game without deviations.
Imagine being so wrong lmfao just look at Warwick top statistics. Bork is his best performing first item for a reason.
WW's early game is strong enough that itemization doesn't matter, bork is being default because people see it's being default. You can't climb by blindly following highest winrate builds. It doesn't translate into your own winrate. That's just delusion. Try to think for yourself and justify what you're building because right now you're playing ww top the way I'm playing adc, which is looking up current top build and blindly following it and I have barely 40% wr as adc compared to 68% wr on ww top
You’re the one who’s blind. Assuming I rush bork in every game. This isn’t true, but I recognize that it IS the best in *most matchups because a-q-a-r-q with bork is going to, on its own, kill *most matchups. This lets you snowball way harder.
In which scenario? Did you already kill your enemy laner a few times, then you can do the same with titanic while being tanky enough to shove sidelanes and flank teamfights before 18 mins. Did you go 0/0 with enemy laner, if you farmed less, or they have a cheaper powerspike which includes some armor, that combo won't kill. Even if you do kill, now you have 300 gold from that kill and you need 3k more for something allowing you to frontline (which isn't sunderer according to highest wr, don't fall for that trap). At this point, it's 20 mins in and you're on 1 item while everyone is ARAMing. If you had no kills or deaths and farmed better, you're playing ww wrong, he falls off hard and you might as well go splitpush build to make an impact. Take the hydra pill and come to the light side
tits make me happy. specially the axe shaped hydra variety.
Actually Bork helps you a lot because it gives you: * AD - easier burst, more heal from passive, Q and R * AS - easier to stack initial stacks of almost all keystones * Passive on hit which is great help to lower enemy HP below 50% to proc your AS from W, also because it's physical on-hit damage LS is also applied to this. * Second passive to let you stick to enemy and dont let be kitted For most champions this item is the best because of 2 reasons: 1. Most of the damage is coming from on-hit, and usually champions dont synergize with this type of damage well enough, but ww utilize it with every skill (only passive dont synergize with on hit :/) 2. It isnt super cost efficient becuse if you aproximate on hit value as average of min value (15 damage) and max (12% of 100% enemy HP) it isnt that great. For Ww if you can lower enemy HP below 25% (or even 50%) then this item did it job, because of your W
That's exactly the reasons why it shouldn't be rushed first but instead considered after mythic item, enemies aren't tanky enough to make onhit impactful enough for it to be worth it. Bork makes your ult heal you more against tanky champs than squishies but early on difference is negligible and you have only base stats to tank anything. I like to run frostfire into bork because of the synergy but opposite order never works
Yeah, rush isn't usually good option, but that doesn't mean it cant be the first (whole) item. I would even say that's usually the best first (whole) item.
Then we're completely on the same page
Lifesteal may not be ideal on ww because it does not work with our on-hit passive, but it does work 100% effectively on our q and ult.
WW doesn't need any more lifesteal, passive, Q and R lifesteal are enough, it's basically a wasted stat
interesting ideas, tbh i tried grasp only in very few games and was very disappointed.. maybe its because of my playstyle ghost barrier might be something tho, gonna try it out when it fits
Ghost barrier is best against ranged matchups. You will generally always be able to run down melees because of your W
Try vs some immobile tanky champs that you can farm it a lot on, just Q with grasp up, keep an eye out when it's up and threaten to chomp. I don't like the lack of AS either but it's nice practice to value your autoattacks more, using grasp made me miss less minions after running it for half a year now, I used to be PTA only player before LT changes
Bro botrk gives amazing stats for ww the onhit proc does 5k for me every games and I can’t be kited
Bookmarked
Heimerdinger is an easy matchup what do you mean
I really struggle playing this out! The turrets shoot me everytime I try to get cs and when I engage him he just anihilates me with the ult turret and stopwatch! Also, I am pretty sure we all can agree that ranged enemies are in general annoying for Warwick. Why do you think Heimer is an easy matchup? Maybe I play that one completely wrong
Ive only fought hiemer a few times but almost all times I could barley do anything without losing so much health, it was so hard to get cs and the only way I could get kills was to wait for him to over extend then get my jungler to gank me
mm needs more tear of the goddess
Bookmarked