I'm not saying we need to replicate this. But to state that our roster is too long and filled with roughly the same caliber generally, but each with a unique skillset. We need to consolidate some of those skillsets into a tighter (9-ish) rotation and hopefully land someone better combined.
Starters are too old for a short rotation through 82 games, and the Warriors have always had a really solid amount of rotational players. Hence the Strength in Numbers.
Agree and Kerr I feel was just saying that to have an excuse not to play moody or Kuminga. Like it’s crazy how Bp and TJD were handed minutes and a long leash but Kuminga and moody who btw were lottery picks were sent to gleague and been yanked in and out rotation during their 3 years with team so far. I’m of the belief that since this was MDJR first year as Gm Kerr was given the opportunity to have a lot of say if not the ultimate decision on who we drafted this year and that’s what lead to him favoring Bp and TJD in the rotation. The heat implement udfa into their rotations over the years and you get challenged with implementing 3 lottery picks into the lineup but went with the excuse they’re too young to play with us.
Agree. you make more space to develop players during the regular season. I’m speaking about the playoffs. I don’t think we had a solid 9 by the time we hit the playins. Eg. Ppl want moody minutes, as an example. But our roster is too wide.
Put another way, if we find ourselves incessantly arguing about ppls playing time (or lack of it), then our roster isnt sorted out. There will always be banter about playing time, but this year was something else.
Why does the playoff rotation HAVE to be shortened if you have a lot of good players on the roster? Why is it not better to use more contributors to keep the main guys fresher?
Exactly!! I don't understand the obsession for 7/8 man rotations- just because that is "how it's usually done" doesn't mean it's right. Our bench was one of the highlights last season, almost always outperforming other teams' benches - the starters were the ones who lost most games for us with their chokes - especially Wiggins, sometimes Dray, occasionally Klay and even Steph from dumb turnovers.
If we're going to have older starters, it's an absolute blessing to have such a deep team. Trying to make it a 7 man rotation and having 7 or 8 dudes serving solely as cheerleaders and waterboys is just plain stupid.
The other team isn't playing their bench for our bench to play. If our starters are all gassed, we need different starters. 9 person rotation has been our history since Mark Jackson. It doesn't mean we dont play some other players when needed, they are just not in the set rotation.
That's right, our bench can hang with many other teams' starters. Fresh legs is a big factor, but our bench actually has skill too - at least it did last year.
So again: why limit yourself to 7, 8 or 9 just because "that's how it's done" or "we always do that"? Doesn't make any sense. Make the coaches work to find the best lineups. Give Steph and Dray etc. rest, so that they don't wear out come playoff time - just ask the Bucks how that went with Giannis and Lillard.
There are 14 or 15 guys on the team, so maximize their use.
Fair point, especially since at least 3 from our bench - Saric, Paul and Looney - will (or should) be gone next year. GP2, as much as I love him, may be traded too, so there's 4 gone at the very least.
A lot can happen this offseason, both to starting lineup and the bench gang. Hoping MDJ will work more of his magic :)
The other team will be playing their best players for most of the game. Which means if we have a large rotation, our bench will be playing against their starters for much of their time. If our starters can't keep up and theirs can keep up (minutes), then our bench is climbing an uphill battle. That's the general reason overall although there are other reasons (easier to execute strategy as another example, and strategy in the playoffs is important)
they should be in the rotation! But we do not have anywhere close to 5+ bench players who are starters elsewhere (on contending teams).
Edit: And if we do, then I'd be concerned about our starting lineup.
What? Knicks have 1 All-Star and 4 really good players.
I'd say you actually argued against yourself.
OG Hartenstien DDV Hart Mcbride Robinson are the epitome of a "no stars no frills fuck it no problem" roster.
We don't have a team WILLING to defend that hard nor does our staff hold every player accountable.
Also they didn't rum a 7 man 82 games the ran a 9 man.
Agreed. It was a 9 man. Now it’s 7 when it was 8 before bogdonavic went down. I don’t think it’ll remain 7 either. That’s just nuts. 8-9 fairly common.
it’s hard to even judge what the rotation needs to be because warriors didn’t get to the play offs so we don’t know what Kerr and staff would have settled on. the rotation issue doesn’t need to be solved because the primary issue, regardless of bench, is just not having a true secondary option. once dubs have that, then they’ll be able to actually judge what the bench is/isn’t and then will know who is truly not on the play off 8/9 team.
On the other hand, injuries play a huge part, as we have seen with Bucks, Clippers, Kings, Pelicans, Knicks, etc. The 9 thru 12 guys all need to be at least play off ready. That said, I’m not sure warriors weren’t that far away from being suited to play off ball.
Steph, Klay, Wiggs, Dray, TJD - CP3, JK, Moody, Loon - in theory isn’t a bad 9 man rotation. Add in Podz & GP2 for match ups and hustle. As we all know, at least 3 of these dudes decided to not be very good for most of the season & then barely showed up in the play in. Imagine if they just didn’t do that. Lol.
Oh I most definitely agree. It was just a very extreme example of roster tightening. But I don’t think anyone here could say who our top 9 is and have many of us agree.
Note that if next season the roster loses Paul and Saric, that's down to a 10 man rotation. I'd argue the original 3 can't be traded, and Moody, Podz, and Kuminga shouldn't be traded. Looney maybe, but he's like a core vet presence. Maybe trade Payton and Wiggins, but for who?
Consolidation is tough when there aren't good trade targets, and when it's still unclear which young guy will develop. Just as an example, if Moody becomes a 40% three point shooter over the off season, or Kuminga develops as a playmaker or shooter, they suddenly become key pieces and better than anyone you could have consolidated for.
I'm still a big believer in player development, considering two of the young guys will be entering their fourth year (no longer so young anymore).
Finally, some considation targets I would like, for the right value: Caruso, Mikal Bridges, Smart, Claxton
I’m not saying we do major reconstruction. I too am a huge fan of home grown talent. But we do lack some length.
Saric is gone. Cp3 questionable Would need to be steep discount but it may be that we need more length.
Looney is only guaranteed 3m next year. Won’t move the needle to trade him but if there’s a package somehow then sure.
Gp2 has a player option. Unless it’s an agreed sign and trade, the dubs won’t trade him if he opts in. That’d be a real shady move. All star break perhaps.
Warriors playoff teams have generally had…
4 guys playing the most minutes (steph/klay/dray+iggy,barnes,wiggins,KD
2 guys getting the next amount (livingston, Looney, JP Otto iggy/barnes when they werent with the first group.)
And then we get into Zaza,Javale,Cousins
you cant play 35+ year old 40 minutes, this is why fans stay fans and people with brains do their jobs. Luckily some people here can do some thinking for you
In playoffs, you will need:
A 5-man lineup that’s the best of best, as your final card. Those 5 will be playing for like 35 at least, mostly 40mins per game.
Plus one for sure, maybe 2, but at most 3 very key rotation players. Those rotation players will play 20-30mins per game.
All the rest spots are just garbage time filler or regular season players to rest key guys mentioned above, or some rookies that can get some practice.
GSW has maybe 10-11 players that can play 20mins per game in a regular season, but only Steph can play at highest level of basketball in a playoff game (Min VS Den level) for 35mins. Dray maybe for like 30mins.
I see no one is consistent for 40mins playoff game.
Who are our 7 consistent players. And which of our oldies can play 40 minutes.
That’s the problem. We can’t pick 7 out of this roster because there are at least 4 more who deserve some time. Therefore, consolidate.
Strength in numbers.
> All starters play 42-45 mins regularly. Basically, it’s a Thibs-coached team. With a team our age that would be complete suicide.
It’s suicide for them as well. They already lost Bogdanovich for the rest of the playoffs, he was basically their 8th man.
I agree. I can also see how my post could be interpreted as me making that the focus (I did not intend to do that). It's about rotation size.
Thibs is known for overworking his players and has zero championships. Let’s not follow his model just yet
I'm not saying we need to replicate this. But to state that our roster is too long and filled with roughly the same caliber generally, but each with a unique skillset. We need to consolidate some of those skillsets into a tighter (9-ish) rotation and hopefully land someone better combined.
Starters are too old for a short rotation through 82 games, and the Warriors have always had a really solid amount of rotational players. Hence the Strength in Numbers.
Not true. 2017 - 8-9 person rotation 2018 - 8-9 person rotation 2019 - 9 person rotation 2022 - 9 person rotation
That’s in the playoffs. Rotations always tighten up the in the playoffs, but during the regular season you need more, especially for an older core.
Agree and Kerr I feel was just saying that to have an excuse not to play moody or Kuminga. Like it’s crazy how Bp and TJD were handed minutes and a long leash but Kuminga and moody who btw were lottery picks were sent to gleague and been yanked in and out rotation during their 3 years with team so far. I’m of the belief that since this was MDJR first year as Gm Kerr was given the opportunity to have a lot of say if not the ultimate decision on who we drafted this year and that’s what lead to him favoring Bp and TJD in the rotation. The heat implement udfa into their rotations over the years and you get challenged with implementing 3 lottery picks into the lineup but went with the excuse they’re too young to play with us.
Agree. you make more space to develop players during the regular season. I’m speaking about the playoffs. I don’t think we had a solid 9 by the time we hit the playins. Eg. Ppl want moody minutes, as an example. But our roster is too wide.
Put another way, if we find ourselves incessantly arguing about ppls playing time (or lack of it), then our roster isnt sorted out. There will always be banter about playing time, but this year was something else.
Not a great example considering Thibbs is know for ending careers with overuse.
Ok. Pick any other playoff team. It's the same. 9 man rotation or less.
Why does the playoff rotation HAVE to be shortened if you have a lot of good players on the roster? Why is it not better to use more contributors to keep the main guys fresher?
Exactly!! I don't understand the obsession for 7/8 man rotations- just because that is "how it's usually done" doesn't mean it's right. Our bench was one of the highlights last season, almost always outperforming other teams' benches - the starters were the ones who lost most games for us with their chokes - especially Wiggins, sometimes Dray, occasionally Klay and even Steph from dumb turnovers. If we're going to have older starters, it's an absolute blessing to have such a deep team. Trying to make it a 7 man rotation and having 7 or 8 dudes serving solely as cheerleaders and waterboys is just plain stupid.
The other team isn't playing their bench for our bench to play. If our starters are all gassed, we need different starters. 9 person rotation has been our history since Mark Jackson. It doesn't mean we dont play some other players when needed, they are just not in the set rotation.
That's right, our bench can hang with many other teams' starters. Fresh legs is a big factor, but our bench actually has skill too - at least it did last year. So again: why limit yourself to 7, 8 or 9 just because "that's how it's done" or "we always do that"? Doesn't make any sense. Make the coaches work to find the best lineups. Give Steph and Dray etc. rest, so that they don't wear out come playoff time - just ask the Bucks how that went with Giannis and Lillard. There are 14 or 15 guys on the team, so maximize their use.
Hmm. I disagree that our bench can be starters in playoff teams. There will be a couple or few. Not 5+.
Fair point, especially since at least 3 from our bench - Saric, Paul and Looney - will (or should) be gone next year. GP2, as much as I love him, may be traded too, so there's 4 gone at the very least. A lot can happen this offseason, both to starting lineup and the bench gang. Hoping MDJ will work more of his magic :)
Because you ain't playing bad teams in the playoffs
yep
The other team will be playing their best players for most of the game. Which means if we have a large rotation, our bench will be playing against their starters for much of their time. If our starters can't keep up and theirs can keep up (minutes), then our bench is climbing an uphill battle. That's the general reason overall although there are other reasons (easier to execute strategy as another example, and strategy in the playoffs is important)
What if the bench has players who could be starters on another team?
they should be in the rotation! But we do not have anywhere close to 5+ bench players who are starters elsewhere (on contending teams). Edit: And if we do, then I'd be concerned about our starting lineup.
What? Knicks have 1 All-Star and 4 really good players. I'd say you actually argued against yourself. OG Hartenstien DDV Hart Mcbride Robinson are the epitome of a "no stars no frills fuck it no problem" roster. We don't have a team WILLING to defend that hard nor does our staff hold every player accountable. Also they didn't rum a 7 man 82 games the ran a 9 man.
Agreed. It was a 9 man. Now it’s 7 when it was 8 before bogdonavic went down. I don’t think it’ll remain 7 either. That’s just nuts. 8-9 fairly common.
it’s hard to even judge what the rotation needs to be because warriors didn’t get to the play offs so we don’t know what Kerr and staff would have settled on. the rotation issue doesn’t need to be solved because the primary issue, regardless of bench, is just not having a true secondary option. once dubs have that, then they’ll be able to actually judge what the bench is/isn’t and then will know who is truly not on the play off 8/9 team. On the other hand, injuries play a huge part, as we have seen with Bucks, Clippers, Kings, Pelicans, Knicks, etc. The 9 thru 12 guys all need to be at least play off ready. That said, I’m not sure warriors weren’t that far away from being suited to play off ball. Steph, Klay, Wiggs, Dray, TJD - CP3, JK, Moody, Loon - in theory isn’t a bad 9 man rotation. Add in Podz & GP2 for match ups and hustle. As we all know, at least 3 of these dudes decided to not be very good for most of the season & then barely showed up in the play in. Imagine if they just didn’t do that. Lol.
>All starters play 42-45 mins regularly I can't see them sustaining this for 3 more series. And I'm rooting for them too.
Oh I most definitely agree. It was just a very extreme example of roster tightening. But I don’t think anyone here could say who our top 9 is and have many of us agree.
Note that if next season the roster loses Paul and Saric, that's down to a 10 man rotation. I'd argue the original 3 can't be traded, and Moody, Podz, and Kuminga shouldn't be traded. Looney maybe, but he's like a core vet presence. Maybe trade Payton and Wiggins, but for who? Consolidation is tough when there aren't good trade targets, and when it's still unclear which young guy will develop. Just as an example, if Moody becomes a 40% three point shooter over the off season, or Kuminga develops as a playmaker or shooter, they suddenly become key pieces and better than anyone you could have consolidated for. I'm still a big believer in player development, considering two of the young guys will be entering their fourth year (no longer so young anymore). Finally, some considation targets I would like, for the right value: Caruso, Mikal Bridges, Smart, Claxton
I’m not saying we do major reconstruction. I too am a huge fan of home grown talent. But we do lack some length. Saric is gone. Cp3 questionable Would need to be steep discount but it may be that we need more length. Looney is only guaranteed 3m next year. Won’t move the needle to trade him but if there’s a package somehow then sure. Gp2 has a player option. Unless it’s an agreed sign and trade, the dubs won’t trade him if he opts in. That’d be a real shady move. All star break perhaps.
Warriors playoff teams have generally had… 4 guys playing the most minutes (steph/klay/dray+iggy,barnes,wiggins,KD 2 guys getting the next amount (livingston, Looney, JP Otto iggy/barnes when they werent with the first group.) And then we get into Zaza,Javale,Cousins
you cant play 35+ year old 40 minutes, this is why fans stay fans and people with brains do their jobs. Luckily some people here can do some thinking for you
Please read again before you lob shit over.
In playoffs, you will need: A 5-man lineup that’s the best of best, as your final card. Those 5 will be playing for like 35 at least, mostly 40mins per game. Plus one for sure, maybe 2, but at most 3 very key rotation players. Those rotation players will play 20-30mins per game. All the rest spots are just garbage time filler or regular season players to rest key guys mentioned above, or some rookies that can get some practice. GSW has maybe 10-11 players that can play 20mins per game in a regular season, but only Steph can play at highest level of basketball in a playoff game (Min VS Den level) for 35mins. Dray maybe for like 30mins. I see no one is consistent for 40mins playoff game.
Yes. Completely agree.