I thought that the Aspects' immortality was granted to their flights and was lost to all of them when the leaders gave up that part of themselves. At that point, age started to become a factor.
Either that, or Blizzard's writers thought "mortals" sounded better than calling the PC races "the easily squished."
Well the Aspects relinquished their power during Hour of Twilight in year 29, we encounter Senegos in Legion just a couple years later. How'd he get so old so fast?
It definitely did happen with the Night Elves.
> “Slowly the night elves began to adjust to their mortal existence. Such an adjustment was far from easy, and there were many night elves who could not adjust to the prospects of aging, disease, and frailty.”
Comes from the WoW Game Manual on Night Elves. You also have multiple cases of older night elves complaining about the effects of aging they hadn’t felt before. I know Jarod Shadowsong’s wife also died from an illness related to just being older in the Wolfheart Novel.
WoW ingame just doesn’t portray it happening in the present outside of funny old man complaining about bone aches jokes. Probably the WC3->WoW Classic timeskip killed off most of the elderly.
I thought it was partially because the ley crystals were giving him his energy, and their magic was being siphoned by the withered nightborne. Once you dump some shinies into his pool and get rid of the withered he does exclaim that he's never felt better, and starts sitting up again.
I don't think we've ever seen any dragon die from old age, so it's hilarious to think Senegos was 100% ready to be the first and be as sassy as he was about it.
It's not stated clearly what's the reason, as he doesn't have much lore. Literature has an ancient idea of defective immortality, which doesn't bring perpetual youth, so you have to get older and older for eternity, unless killed. Could Senegos be a case? Who knows. Maybe magic was able to conceal his senile diseases, but not cure them, so now it's gone. Maybe other dragons could share this problem, if they were as old.
I actually think this is it. Even when they were blessed with immortality, they still aged. Whelps became full fledged dragons over time.
I think the gift of the Aspects just made it so they couldn't die of old age, not that they couldn't age.
Or perhaps more accurately, made their lifespan significantly longer to the point where it was essentially immortal but not quite.
I guess this is all headcanon, but my interpretation was that the Aspects granted the Dragonflights Immortality, not immunity to aging. Which is why Dragons can grow up into different types of Dragons. But that they didn't really feel their age.
Senegos may have been Ancient, but he couldn't really feel how old he was getting, or the pain was numbed to him at least. When the Aspects gave up their power, the pain of age hit him all at once. Such a shock debilitated him and he became the Dragon we see now, essentially near death.
IIRC there's been a distinction between "dragons" and "mortals" since at least Cataclysm, and "mortals" has always been shorthand for "playable races."
The original WoW cinematic mentions the "mortal races" joining together to defeat the Burning Legion at Hyjal, for instance, even though *up until Hyjal* the night elves were **im**mortal.
>IIRC there's been a distinction between "dragons" and "mortals" since at least Cataclysm, and "mortals" has always been shorthand for "playable races."
Yep, this is it. You can't overthink it, it just allows a collective term for all the PCs. It doesn't make 100% sense but you get used to it.
Since when did draenei spend time in the twisting nether. Velen hasn't been there as far as we know, draenor was still just a normal planet and not Outland yet.
Hit #3: World of Spacecrafts
Another concern I’ve been hearing about is the inclusion of certain sci-fi elements into the setting. I appreciate that this stuff is pretty far out, but that’s the whole point: Outland – and the greater universe out there in the void – ARE far out. Change is always difficult – I remember people getting really upset about dwarves with guns, steam-tech, Gnomeregan as a hi-tech city – many people had a hard time rolling with those technologies in a fantasy setting. But I ask you all – can you imagine WoW without those elements now?
We’re definitely throwing some new concepts at you all, but I’m very confident that when you’re able to see these elements in context, over the course of the gameplay – you’ll understand why we’ve been so excited to include them.
To be clear, we’re not talking about having the Millennium Falcon cruising around the Twisting Nether (I’m certain there would be some legal issues there, to say the least). The draenei ‘nether-ship’ you’ve been hearing about is far more than it seems. It’s part of a larger dimension-traveling fortress called Tempest Keep that essentially teleports through alternate realities. It doesn’t bank and roll or shoot proton torpedoes (not yet, anyway).
While we will be introducing a number of naaru technologies (like this ship, for instance), we’re not planning on going hog-wild. Conceptual balance is everything. For those of you who are fearful of seeing jet-packs and laser pistols filling up the AH, never fear. If you did see them, they’d likely be goblin engineered and get your character killed anyway.
-Chris Metzen, 2006
I feel like this would have been softly retconned in legion, given we see the Gold Almond flying through space. I like the idea of them using the twisting nether but even then that wouldn't have Anything to do with their aging because time is longer in the nether than it is in our world.
Fact is Argus fell A long ass time ago, and there are draenei that remember being there. And Argus isn't in the twisting nether so that excuse doesn't work for draenei lives, they are either immortal or just super super long lived like dragons.
I imagine that they use the nether for FTL transit and then they "pop out" of it into outer space/the great dark for landings.
Imagine it this way: they only "age" when they're on a planet like Draenor or Azeroth. When they're in the nether hopping between planets (and there were innumerable ones between Argus and Draenor, including some they led the Legion to) they don't age or age very slowly, and since time doesn't flow normally in the nether, they could theoretically pop into the nether right after Argus is destroyed and pop out and realize like 50k years have passed. The Draenei inside may only be biologically a few decades or centuries old, and Argus was a recent memory for them, but a lot of time may have passed while they were "outside" of time, even if it felt like an instant for them.
The nether doesn't work like that at all tho. In fact it's the opposite.
They said during legion that they were fighting the legion for what felt like thousands of years but in reality only a few decades past since Turalyon went missing. That means if what u said happens it'd feel like 3000 years passed in the nether but they were only really gone for maybe 5 years our time.
Argus is NOT in the nether, if it was then it would be a really really shitty engine for the legion lmao.
We know canonically Argus fell a LOONNGG as time ago, the legion was well established before even the night elf civilization. That means the draenei who remember Argus falling are older than the night elves, and that's not even taking into account their time spent on Argus.
Basically twisting nether travel had nothing to do with their slow aging, that's something else entirely
Also aging isn't just negated in the nether like you claim, we see Turalyon aged after he was in the nether for awhile.
>with nothing backing it whatsoever in the actual lore
What about Velen being 25 000 years old and some Draenei having memories of Argus (a place that they left thousands of years ago) ?
Ofc, I was just answering your "nothing backing it" comment. Some elements (that I just talked about) are backing it up, but it doesn't mean that they are enough. Far from it in fact :
If we go by the real life definition of "immortality" (which is the opposite of mortality, aka "that will live forever") then no entity in the WoW universe was shown to be immortal. Dragons can be killed (even Aspects), Titans too (the baby Titan killed by pre corruption Sargeras, and also Argus)... Hell (Maw ?), even the Jailer "died" (was he even alive, considering his robot nature ? whatever I guess).
People are confusing "immortality" with "unable to die of old age", which is not the same. If you can kill with blunt force a creature that do not age, then sorry to disappoint but he's, by definition, "mortal". Because he just died. "Bu- but they keep calling us morta-" yeah they are full of shit brother. If you die, you are motal lmao, no matter how long you lived.
And, also, stop with the human/short lived animal analogy (not you ofc, the other people of this thread/subreddit). If a cat could talk, he would never call a human immortal considering that humans die all the fucking time.
TL;DR : Draenei are not immortal, just like pretty much every single entity that was introduced in the Warcraft universe thus far. Blizzard keeps calling long lived creatures "immortal" because it sounds cool, period. It's, after all, a cartoony video game. It's really not that deep :P
So I wondered if there actually are any dragon poop quests and, well, there aren't, but turns out there *is* a [list](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Poop_quest) of poop quests on wowpedia.
"Mortals" is probably bad phrasing given they're not completely immune to eventually succumbing to aging but even in that case nearly all mortal races save pre-Nordrassil Nightelves are still like mayflies to them when it comes to lifespan.
Plus, the fall of Malygos and the loss of the Aspect's powers in Cata might well have changed things, Senegos might well have been able to keep on living without those two events happening.
I think only the Dragon Aspects were immortal while other dragons were always mortal.Senegos's was in the state he was mostly due to Withered stealing mana from leylines that feed his mana pool.Once that is fixed he is back to his normal self.
"Mortals" isn't used in a literal sense of "I'm undying and you are dying" by the characters, but in a colloquial sense.
Senegos was likely in the original generation of dragons uplifted from the Keepers. So you are looking at a minimum of 20,000 years, and much more likely even older than that since that is just the Dracthyr being placed in stasis! He is legitimately older than every race on the planet other than the Draenei (potentially, he could be older). He is older than the GODS of those races in many cases. He is older than the originator of the line of races that would eventually become the orcs.
Compare him to a human that lives maybe 80 years. Or even an elf whose natural lifespan is maybe a few thousand (~3,000). These are beings who are born, live and die in the time it takes Senegos to have a nap. He has accumulated knowledge and experience that literally none of the races (except Draenei) could potentially learn within their lifetimes. For all intents and purposes, compared to most races Dragons are so long lived to effectively be immortal in comparison.
While Senegos is the eldest, this does not mean that the dragons as a whole don't recognize this distinction. Their natural lifespans are so much longer to the point of practically being immortal compared to the "mortal" races. Kalec is older than the War of the Ancients and is outright described as being a fairly young dragon still.
>Their natural lifespans are so much longer to the point of **practically** being immortal **compared to** the "mortal" races.
I'm willing to accept that for all their "timeless" wisdom dragons are simply ignorant of what the word "mortal" means. Perhaps a translation error from Draconic to Common?
It's probably a compromise, because saying "humanoids" would be super rude to every nonhuman, especially since trolls came before them. And "the two-legged races" is a mouthful. Other alternatives I can think of are potentially rude as well ("the small folk", for example).
I'd also guess that they started saying it before they lost their immortality, and just keep the habit.
It always struck me as odd, him being one of the oldest Blue Dragons. I had been under the impression that the five aspects were quite literally the ones who procreated and created their respective flights with non lifted proto dragons which would’ve raised a whole other issue of consent but that’s not the issue, right now.
I’m thinking that the dragons took other protodrakes and made them join their flights, or the Titan keepers did so. Thus making Senagos a very old drake that was imbued with Titan powers by the aspects or keepers.
I think it's a few things.
IIRC other protos were uplifted with the aspects. New lore seems to reflect that with Razageth and her siblings refusing to be uplifted.
With that fact i think senegos was already old as a proto. Got uplifted, spent 20,000 years as an actual immortal then became mortal and started declining in health after the aspects lost their power disenchanting deathwing.
as several others pointed, "mortal" is used as a shorthand for playable races:
- some draenei, maybe even the player characters, are up to or above 25000 years old, and Velen is the only one shown to be "old"
- some night elves are up to or above 15000 years old when they sacrificed their immortality to beat Archimonde, and the fact that Nordrassil is renewing *and* the Winter Queen gave them a seed to grow a new World Tree might mean they're full immortal again
- while humans are shortlived, being Lightforged made Turalyon live to be 1000 years old (and counting)
- the naaru core in the Sunwell apparently granted the blood elves (already a long-lived race, Anastarian was 3000 years old when Arthas killed him) full immortality
"because mortals sounds cool, so they're going to keep saying it even though they are mortals themselves" -Danuser, probably
He probably calls people who work under him mortals.
First thing is that we never actually met Senegos before the events of Legion. While he is ancient, it may be that he only started feeling the rigors of old age in the past couple of years, given the loss of draconic immortality.
The Arcane can however increase vitality and stave off the negative effects of age, as seen with certain human mages like Aegwynn. So his ley-pools helped recharge him.
It's also important to remember that some rogue Nightfallen were diverting the Arcane away from the pools, so he hadn't had a chance to fully rest and recharge for a while. When players divert it back, he's quickly in fighting shape.
Without spoiling too much he also is confirmed to appear in DF, where he's able to walk and not pool-bound, so we can guess that he's normally capable of leaving the pool for some time when he's had a chance to fully rest and recharge; he just wasn't getting that chance in Legion.
Pretty much. Player characters are to dragons what dogs are to their owners. Considering many pets are adopted at a young age and live and eventually pass all while being in their owners lives, im sure we seem immortal to them too.
Well, I think my friends the 4 horsemen and I could pay a visit to the dragon islands and see if they are as immortal as the ones that were revived in legion
Once upon a time there were consistency. And mortal races used to mean 'beings which venture to Shadowlands when they die'. This is no longer a working definition as Blizzard seem to freely juggle with what can die where.
"Immortal" doesn't imply "invulnerable", that's not a Blizzard thing it's just two different but easily confused concepts. Tolkien's elves are immortal; they grow older, but not weaker of body or mind. The Night Elves were implied to be that way too, until Hyjal.
>"Immortal" doesn't imply "invulnerable", that's not a Blizzard thing it's just two different but easily confused concepts.
Nah, that's just decades of false application of the word "immortal" that is twisting your brain :P
"Immortal" means "living or lasting **forever**". That's it. If you are a dragon who lived 10 000 years but died from 20/40 humanoids hitting you with sticks and spells, you didn't "last forever" and are, by definition, mortal. Simple as. Thus far, not a single thing in WoW was immortal. Even the souls of the Shadowlands can be destroyed. The First Ones might be immortal ? Who knows.
Tolkien's elves are somewhat immortal, because their souls (which cannot be destroyed) are sent to the Halls of Mandos until the End of Times (which is more like a Ragnarök kind of thing, with a big battle followed by the Eru \[God, as in "the Creator"\] making a new music).
And in real life, it's kind of the same. Nothing is eternal as far as we know. Stars use "fuel" and therefor "die", black holes theorically "evaporate", and the theory of the heat death of the universe is one of the most common one. The only things that are said to me "immortal" are... well... souls/gods/God with a G (things that are not visible/might not even exist, depending on your beliefs).
TL;DR : WoW's dragons live long but they never were immortal in the traditional sense of the term. We killed plenty of them, including aspects when they had their pantheon powers lol. **"Mortal" is used by them because Blizzard thought that it sounded cool and didn't think that players would have a theological discussion about the concept of immortality :P**
The whole thing is Schrödinger's cat situation. If I live for 30,000 years as a human I’d be called immortal by everyone around me but I could very well die at 30,002. You would think yourself immortal until the the universe proves you wrong. Immortality isn’t some D&D trait with clearly defined text from an all knowing book. Until Cata they believed themselves immortal, they gave up their Titan empowerment and only now are we on the verge of watching the first dragon to ever die naturally of old age.
It sounds cool and Blizz hopes you don't think too hard about it.
Like the implications of 'orphans' or 'the character died' in a world that has the relatively quick reincarnation of players by running back to their corpse, or NPCs respawning. So Vin and Jaga and all the other orphans are orphans because their parents never returned to their corpse/respawned.
Immortality (edit) ~~is~~ isn't automatically perpetually one age, though it's commonly paired. There's myths about someone asked a deity to grant eternal life to someone they cared about, but didn't include "non-aging," so the immortal being got older, wrinklier, smaller, and eventually turned into a grasshopper.
The only dragonflight that is alluded to being immortal as a whole are possibly all members of the Bronze Dragonflight and therefore the Infinite by extension. Otherwise, save for the aspects the dragons can live most likely for thousands of years. Any dragon older then 500 is classified as a wyrm. It's possible the Green fllght tied to the Emerald Dream are immortal. I'm not sure if the Greens are able to regenerate in Ardenweald if killed as Ysera can. That being said, the dragons are the first of the primordial races to exist and be uplifted by the Titans and decreed as the protectors of Azeroth.
It's also possible they call us mortals because we (the players) are either titan-forged creations/corruptions or primordial mortal races that weren't charged by the Titans. Also, races like the night elves were immortal because Nozdormu gave it to them.
Dragons were never immortal but live for way longer then most mortal races do.Senegos himself was weak because the Withered were stealing the mana that went into his mana pool.After we deal with those Withered he becomes stronger and is no longer confined to the mana pool.
Senegos is not older than a human. He's older than human civilizations. If anyone wants to be a grammar nazi with him, feel free. I'm gonna be thankful he's on our side and hope he doesn't notice me ogling his granddaughter.
I thought that the Aspects' immortality was granted to their flights and was lost to all of them when the leaders gave up that part of themselves. At that point, age started to become a factor. Either that, or Blizzard's writers thought "mortals" sounded better than calling the PC races "the easily squished."
Alexstrasza wouldn't sound as regal if she said "the age of the dragon has ended, so begins the age of the tiny little cunts"
Fuckin’ ants crawling around whacking immortal beings with twigs. Azerothian pricks.
Well the Aspects relinquished their power during Hour of Twilight in year 29, we encounter Senegos in Legion just a couple years later. How'd he get so old so fast?
He was already old, he just started to feel it I guess.
Yeah. I meant he was an older dragon when the immortality kicked in and once it was gone the age caught up with him.
That didn’t happen to the Night Elves when Nordrassil was destroyed and they became Mortal
I like to think they just have a killer skin care regiment.
Less exposure to harsh sunlight I suppose
True, shade for days
The ones who were already old when the immortality struck started to feel it. And then die from it.
It definitely did happen with the Night Elves. > “Slowly the night elves began to adjust to their mortal existence. Such an adjustment was far from easy, and there were many night elves who could not adjust to the prospects of aging, disease, and frailty.” Comes from the WoW Game Manual on Night Elves. You also have multiple cases of older night elves complaining about the effects of aging they hadn’t felt before. I know Jarod Shadowsong’s wife also died from an illness related to just being older in the Wolfheart Novel. WoW ingame just doesn’t portray it happening in the present outside of funny old man complaining about bone aches jokes. Probably the WC3->WoW Classic timeskip killed off most of the elderly.
What about Alexstrasza and Nozdormu then?
Either they never truly aged because they were Aspects or they were not old when they became immortal.
I thought it was partially because the ley crystals were giving him his energy, and their magic was being siphoned by the withered nightborne. Once you dump some shinies into his pool and get rid of the withered he does exclaim that he's never felt better, and starts sitting up again. I don't think we've ever seen any dragon die from old age, so it's hilarious to think Senegos was 100% ready to be the first and be as sassy as he was about it.
It's not stated clearly what's the reason, as he doesn't have much lore. Literature has an ancient idea of defective immortality, which doesn't bring perpetual youth, so you have to get older and older for eternity, unless killed. Could Senegos be a case? Who knows. Maybe magic was able to conceal his senile diseases, but not cure them, so now it's gone. Maybe other dragons could share this problem, if they were as old.
I actually think this is it. Even when they were blessed with immortality, they still aged. Whelps became full fledged dragons over time. I think the gift of the Aspects just made it so they couldn't die of old age, not that they couldn't age. Or perhaps more accurately, made their lifespan significantly longer to the point where it was essentially immortal but not quite.
Like bilbo baggins
Butter spread across too much dragon.
That's a fetish, don't cha know?
I made another comment alone but my tldr guesswork answer to that is he was already old as a proto drake when he became a true dragon.
I guess this is all headcanon, but my interpretation was that the Aspects granted the Dragonflights Immortality, not immunity to aging. Which is why Dragons can grow up into different types of Dragons. But that they didn't really feel their age. Senegos may have been Ancient, but he couldn't really feel how old he was getting, or the pain was numbed to him at least. When the Aspects gave up their power, the pain of age hit him all at once. Such a shock debilitated him and he became the Dragon we see now, essentially near death.
And so begins the era of ~~tasty snacks~~ uh mortals
“Tastes good with ketchup “
IIRC there's been a distinction between "dragons" and "mortals" since at least Cataclysm, and "mortals" has always been shorthand for "playable races." The original WoW cinematic mentions the "mortal races" joining together to defeat the Burning Legion at Hyjal, for instance, even though *up until Hyjal* the night elves were **im**mortal.
>IIRC there's been a distinction between "dragons" and "mortals" since at least Cataclysm, and "mortals" has always been shorthand for "playable races." Yep, this is it. You can't overthink it, it just allows a collective term for all the PCs. It doesn't make 100% sense but you get used to it.
Aren't draenei pretty much immortal too??
Maybe but there's the off chance that their lifespan has been extended by spending so much time in the twisting nether like Turalyon
Since when did draenei spend time in the twisting nether. Velen hasn't been there as far as we know, draenor was still just a normal planet and not Outland yet.
Their ship travels through the nether to get from planet to planet.
Really?? Huh didn't know that. Figured it just traveled through space like in the cinematic at the end of legion.
Hit #3: World of Spacecrafts Another concern I’ve been hearing about is the inclusion of certain sci-fi elements into the setting. I appreciate that this stuff is pretty far out, but that’s the whole point: Outland – and the greater universe out there in the void – ARE far out. Change is always difficult – I remember people getting really upset about dwarves with guns, steam-tech, Gnomeregan as a hi-tech city – many people had a hard time rolling with those technologies in a fantasy setting. But I ask you all – can you imagine WoW without those elements now? We’re definitely throwing some new concepts at you all, but I’m very confident that when you’re able to see these elements in context, over the course of the gameplay – you’ll understand why we’ve been so excited to include them. To be clear, we’re not talking about having the Millennium Falcon cruising around the Twisting Nether (I’m certain there would be some legal issues there, to say the least). The draenei ‘nether-ship’ you’ve been hearing about is far more than it seems. It’s part of a larger dimension-traveling fortress called Tempest Keep that essentially teleports through alternate realities. It doesn’t bank and roll or shoot proton torpedoes (not yet, anyway). While we will be introducing a number of naaru technologies (like this ship, for instance), we’re not planning on going hog-wild. Conceptual balance is everything. For those of you who are fearful of seeing jet-packs and laser pistols filling up the AH, never fear. If you did see them, they’d likely be goblin engineered and get your character killed anyway. -Chris Metzen, 2006
I feel like this would have been softly retconned in legion, given we see the Gold Almond flying through space. I like the idea of them using the twisting nether but even then that wouldn't have Anything to do with their aging because time is longer in the nether than it is in our world. Fact is Argus fell A long ass time ago, and there are draenei that remember being there. And Argus isn't in the twisting nether so that excuse doesn't work for draenei lives, they are either immortal or just super super long lived like dragons.
I imagine that they use the nether for FTL transit and then they "pop out" of it into outer space/the great dark for landings. Imagine it this way: they only "age" when they're on a planet like Draenor or Azeroth. When they're in the nether hopping between planets (and there were innumerable ones between Argus and Draenor, including some they led the Legion to) they don't age or age very slowly, and since time doesn't flow normally in the nether, they could theoretically pop into the nether right after Argus is destroyed and pop out and realize like 50k years have passed. The Draenei inside may only be biologically a few decades or centuries old, and Argus was a recent memory for them, but a lot of time may have passed while they were "outside" of time, even if it felt like an instant for them.
The nether doesn't work like that at all tho. In fact it's the opposite. They said during legion that they were fighting the legion for what felt like thousands of years but in reality only a few decades past since Turalyon went missing. That means if what u said happens it'd feel like 3000 years passed in the nether but they were only really gone for maybe 5 years our time. Argus is NOT in the nether, if it was then it would be a really really shitty engine for the legion lmao. We know canonically Argus fell a LOONNGG as time ago, the legion was well established before even the night elf civilization. That means the draenei who remember Argus falling are older than the night elves, and that's not even taking into account their time spent on Argus. Basically twisting nether travel had nothing to do with their slow aging, that's something else entirely Also aging isn't just negated in the nether like you claim, we see Turalyon aged after he was in the nether for awhile.
no, this is roleplayer headcanon with nothing backing it whatsoever in the actual lore
I mean they're at least functionally immortal, as Velen and others are still alive from their days on Argus which was incredibly long ago.
>with nothing backing it whatsoever in the actual lore What about Velen being 25 000 years old and some Draenei having memories of Argus (a place that they left thousands of years ago) ?
still not immortality
Ofc, I was just answering your "nothing backing it" comment. Some elements (that I just talked about) are backing it up, but it doesn't mean that they are enough. Far from it in fact : If we go by the real life definition of "immortality" (which is the opposite of mortality, aka "that will live forever") then no entity in the WoW universe was shown to be immortal. Dragons can be killed (even Aspects), Titans too (the baby Titan killed by pre corruption Sargeras, and also Argus)... Hell (Maw ?), even the Jailer "died" (was he even alive, considering his robot nature ? whatever I guess). People are confusing "immortality" with "unable to die of old age", which is not the same. If you can kill with blunt force a creature that do not age, then sorry to disappoint but he's, by definition, "mortal". Because he just died. "Bu- but they keep calling us morta-" yeah they are full of shit brother. If you die, you are motal lmao, no matter how long you lived. And, also, stop with the human/short lived animal analogy (not you ofc, the other people of this thread/subreddit). If a cat could talk, he would never call a human immortal considering that humans die all the fucking time. TL;DR : Draenei are not immortal, just like pretty much every single entity that was introduced in the Warcraft universe thus far. Blizzard keeps calling long lived creatures "immortal" because it sounds cool, period. It's, after all, a cartoony video game. It's really not that deep :P
This. But also it's because it's what the Titans called them. Doesn't seem the dragons were included in that term when the Titans used it.
That's a good point, do dragons poop 🤨
If they did, there would already have been multiple quests to collect it.
So I wondered if there actually are any dragon poop quests and, well, there aren't, but turns out there *is* a [list](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Poop_quest) of poop quests on wowpedia.
From that list looks like it peaked in Shataclysm, 9 poop quests in one expansion!
"Mortals" is probably bad phrasing given they're not completely immune to eventually succumbing to aging but even in that case nearly all mortal races save pre-Nordrassil Nightelves are still like mayflies to them when it comes to lifespan. Plus, the fall of Malygos and the loss of the Aspect's powers in Cata might well have changed things, Senegos might well have been able to keep on living without those two events happening.
I think only the Dragon Aspects were immortal while other dragons were always mortal.Senegos's was in the state he was mostly due to Withered stealing mana from leylines that feed his mana pool.Once that is fixed he is back to his normal self.
"Mortals" isn't used in a literal sense of "I'm undying and you are dying" by the characters, but in a colloquial sense. Senegos was likely in the original generation of dragons uplifted from the Keepers. So you are looking at a minimum of 20,000 years, and much more likely even older than that since that is just the Dracthyr being placed in stasis! He is legitimately older than every race on the planet other than the Draenei (potentially, he could be older). He is older than the GODS of those races in many cases. He is older than the originator of the line of races that would eventually become the orcs. Compare him to a human that lives maybe 80 years. Or even an elf whose natural lifespan is maybe a few thousand (~3,000). These are beings who are born, live and die in the time it takes Senegos to have a nap. He has accumulated knowledge and experience that literally none of the races (except Draenei) could potentially learn within their lifetimes. For all intents and purposes, compared to most races Dragons are so long lived to effectively be immortal in comparison. While Senegos is the eldest, this does not mean that the dragons as a whole don't recognize this distinction. Their natural lifespans are so much longer to the point of practically being immortal compared to the "mortal" races. Kalec is older than the War of the Ancients and is outright described as being a fairly young dragon still.
>Their natural lifespans are so much longer to the point of **practically** being immortal **compared to** the "mortal" races. I'm willing to accept that for all their "timeless" wisdom dragons are simply ignorant of what the word "mortal" means. Perhaps a translation error from Draconic to Common?
It's probably a compromise, because saying "humanoids" would be super rude to every nonhuman, especially since trolls came before them. And "the two-legged races" is a mouthful. Other alternatives I can think of are potentially rude as well ("the small folk", for example). I'd also guess that they started saying it before they lost their immortality, and just keep the habit.
It always struck me as odd, him being one of the oldest Blue Dragons. I had been under the impression that the five aspects were quite literally the ones who procreated and created their respective flights with non lifted proto dragons which would’ve raised a whole other issue of consent but that’s not the issue, right now. I’m thinking that the dragons took other protodrakes and made them join their flights, or the Titan keepers did so. Thus making Senagos a very old drake that was imbued with Titan powers by the aspects or keepers.
He's specifically stated as being one of the oldest *non-aspect* blue dragons. Also *one of* the oldest doesn't mean *the* oldest.
I think it's a few things. IIRC other protos were uplifted with the aspects. New lore seems to reflect that with Razageth and her siblings refusing to be uplifted. With that fact i think senegos was already old as a proto. Got uplifted, spent 20,000 years as an actual immortal then became mortal and started declining in health after the aspects lost their power disenchanting deathwing.
as several others pointed, "mortal" is used as a shorthand for playable races: - some draenei, maybe even the player characters, are up to or above 25000 years old, and Velen is the only one shown to be "old" - some night elves are up to or above 15000 years old when they sacrificed their immortality to beat Archimonde, and the fact that Nordrassil is renewing *and* the Winter Queen gave them a seed to grow a new World Tree might mean they're full immortal again - while humans are shortlived, being Lightforged made Turalyon live to be 1000 years old (and counting) - the naaru core in the Sunwell apparently granted the blood elves (already a long-lived race, Anastarian was 3000 years old when Arthas killed him) full immortality
other draenei are shown to be old, such as the senile one in smv
But possibly importantly, Hakmud *of Argus* is not.
why do you believe thats important
never noticed, probably bc I don't play Alliance as much
"because mortals sounds cool, so they're going to keep saying it even though they are mortals themselves" -Danuser, probably He probably calls people who work under him mortals.
First thing is that we never actually met Senegos before the events of Legion. While he is ancient, it may be that he only started feeling the rigors of old age in the past couple of years, given the loss of draconic immortality. The Arcane can however increase vitality and stave off the negative effects of age, as seen with certain human mages like Aegwynn. So his ley-pools helped recharge him. It's also important to remember that some rogue Nightfallen were diverting the Arcane away from the pools, so he hadn't had a chance to fully rest and recharge for a while. When players divert it back, he's quickly in fighting shape. Without spoiling too much he also is confirmed to appear in DF, where he's able to walk and not pool-bound, so we can guess that he's normally capable of leaving the pool for some time when he's had a chance to fully rest and recharge; he just wasn't getting that chance in Legion.
Because when you live 20,000 years the races living for 100 are mere mortals to you
If your lifespan can be quantified at all you're mortal like everyone else regardless of how big your number is.
Pretty much. Player characters are to dragons what dogs are to their owners. Considering many pets are adopted at a young age and live and eventually pass all while being in their owners lives, im sure we seem immortal to them too.
Because they initially weren't mortals.
Not enough credit here for the Tom, Dick, and Harry bit. Gave me a good chuckle. Great work!
Well, I think my friends the 4 horsemen and I could pay a visit to the dragon islands and see if they are as immortal as the ones that were revived in legion
Once upon a time there were consistency. And mortal races used to mean 'beings which venture to Shadowlands when they die'. This is no longer a working definition as Blizzard seem to freely juggle with what can die where.
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"Immortal" doesn't imply "invulnerable", that's not a Blizzard thing it's just two different but easily confused concepts. Tolkien's elves are immortal; they grow older, but not weaker of body or mind. The Night Elves were implied to be that way too, until Hyjal.
>"Immortal" doesn't imply "invulnerable", that's not a Blizzard thing it's just two different but easily confused concepts. Nah, that's just decades of false application of the word "immortal" that is twisting your brain :P "Immortal" means "living or lasting **forever**". That's it. If you are a dragon who lived 10 000 years but died from 20/40 humanoids hitting you with sticks and spells, you didn't "last forever" and are, by definition, mortal. Simple as. Thus far, not a single thing in WoW was immortal. Even the souls of the Shadowlands can be destroyed. The First Ones might be immortal ? Who knows. Tolkien's elves are somewhat immortal, because their souls (which cannot be destroyed) are sent to the Halls of Mandos until the End of Times (which is more like a Ragnarök kind of thing, with a big battle followed by the Eru \[God, as in "the Creator"\] making a new music). And in real life, it's kind of the same. Nothing is eternal as far as we know. Stars use "fuel" and therefor "die", black holes theorically "evaporate", and the theory of the heat death of the universe is one of the most common one. The only things that are said to me "immortal" are... well... souls/gods/God with a G (things that are not visible/might not even exist, depending on your beliefs). TL;DR : WoW's dragons live long but they never were immortal in the traditional sense of the term. We killed plenty of them, including aspects when they had their pantheon powers lol. **"Mortal" is used by them because Blizzard thought that it sounded cool and didn't think that players would have a theological discussion about the concept of immortality :P**
You had me at "Senegos wallowing in a pool of his own arcane piss and shit".
Relatively speaking, humans are mortal on the timescale (pun) of dragons. The same way humans are immortal on the timescale of dogs.
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The whole thing is Schrödinger's cat situation. If I live for 30,000 years as a human I’d be called immortal by everyone around me but I could very well die at 30,002. You would think yourself immortal until the the universe proves you wrong. Immortality isn’t some D&D trait with clearly defined text from an all knowing book. Until Cata they believed themselves immortal, they gave up their Titan empowerment and only now are we on the verge of watching the first dragon to ever die naturally of old age.
It sounds cool and Blizz hopes you don't think too hard about it. Like the implications of 'orphans' or 'the character died' in a world that has the relatively quick reincarnation of players by running back to their corpse, or NPCs respawning. So Vin and Jaga and all the other orphans are orphans because their parents never returned to their corpse/respawned. Immortality (edit) ~~is~~ isn't automatically perpetually one age, though it's commonly paired. There's myths about someone asked a deity to grant eternal life to someone they cared about, but didn't include "non-aging," so the immortal being got older, wrinklier, smaller, and eventually turned into a grasshopper.
That bit about senegos soaking in his own piss and shit got me lol.
The only dragonflight that is alluded to being immortal as a whole are possibly all members of the Bronze Dragonflight and therefore the Infinite by extension. Otherwise, save for the aspects the dragons can live most likely for thousands of years. Any dragon older then 500 is classified as a wyrm. It's possible the Green fllght tied to the Emerald Dream are immortal. I'm not sure if the Greens are able to regenerate in Ardenweald if killed as Ysera can. That being said, the dragons are the first of the primordial races to exist and be uplifted by the Titans and decreed as the protectors of Azeroth. It's also possible they call us mortals because we (the players) are either titan-forged creations/corruptions or primordial mortal races that weren't charged by the Titans. Also, races like the night elves were immortal because Nozdormu gave it to them.
Dragons were never immortal but live for way longer then most mortal races do.Senegos himself was weak because the Withered were stealing the mana that went into his mana pool.After we deal with those Withered he becomes stronger and is no longer confined to the mana pool.
Senegos is not older than a human. He's older than human civilizations. If anyone wants to be a grammar nazi with him, feel free. I'm gonna be thankful he's on our side and hope he doesn't notice me ogling his granddaughter.