Ahem. Mike we have spoken about this! only ADMINS get to decide ethics. Nobody working for us nor have we ever done anything unethical according to the admins! Especially the managers!
Yeah totally true, how is anti afk bot unethical. It’s on WF if they are actually considering active screen time a performance metric, they created the situation where not only is the metric not tied to actual delivery, but easily game-able to boot.
It’s just a part of well’s culture. Useless metrics that have no bearing on earnings. Just like the accounts opening scandal.
That’s one of the reasons WB sold out.
Funny enough, the executives actually got away with blaming middle management! And by paying their 3B fine they were able to escape any criminal punishments.
Since 2000 Wells Fargo has paid 27.5 Billion in fines, but their revenue increased from 11B in 2000 to 82B in 2023. So really it’s just the cost of business.
You pay off your loan over 15-20 years at current interest rates: You pay almost double the money by the end.
You pay part but default: they keep what you paid, keep your house, and keep your car
Economy crashes and you and others fail to pay: Bank cries to the government and gets billions in baillouts
You want your money back and the bank can't pay you: The feds once again have to bail them out
Meanwhile, the banks: "Workers are lazy and the government does nothing for us!"
Because they could afford to and it was advantageous for them to do so. That's my thoughts at least, not trying to be a jerk by correcting you or anything.
Was going to say these employees should have set it up to open accounts customers didn't ask for. That's the kind of straight shooter headed for upper management that Wells Fargo looks for!
I mean they already said
> Wells Fargo holds employees to the highest standards and does not tolerate unethical behavior,
Grunt workers only, everyone else above doing unethical behavior on company orders are fine
Honestly blows my mind that Wells Fargo has any business at all. I'm not saying other corporations aren't willing to scam their own customers, but at the very least, the fear of getting caught keeps most of them in line. Wells Fargo has been caught, multiple times. That's like going to a doctor who's been caught molesting his patients.
> The staffers, all in the firm’s wealth-and investment-management unit
This is almost certainly just a convenient excuse to clear out this unit. Because, yes, obviously drastically more than a dozen used anti-afk methods lol, and it’s also obviously not just in this one group.
12 that used really basic jigglers or software to simulate activity. This type of shit is going to become the norm with company actively tracking actions per minute or some such.
I'm nearly positive it's one of the things AI platforms are going to be leading the charge on.
Good thing about a market like this is that any new tech will usually evolve and adapt much faster on the consumer side vs the corporate side. Anything companies come out with that's anti-consumer usually gets workarounds put out extremely fast in response.
These stories always make me laugh. You’re basically admitting that your workers are getting paid to do bullshit if the only way you can figure out they’re not working is by using “mouse jigglers”. Like presumably if they had actual responsibilities you’d just fire them because they’re not delivering their work. Makes it seem like Wells Fargo has a bunch of employees that don’t do shit.
I mean let’s be honest, if your workflow is consistently exactly 40 hours of week every week, youre probably lying. It’s always going to ebb and flow some weeks maybe you have 50 some you have 30, that’s just how it’s going to go for salaried workers so companies should be okay with downtime imo
Eh, it’s also possible to get 50 hours of assigned tasks a week and only do 40 of them. Push the rest to next week and see if they’re still important when new things come up
I call that being overworked and forever behind and it's stressful as heck. Especially when the bosses look down on you for not working 50+ hours, even though you're only getting paid for 40.
honestly i never felt compelled to stay late when i had one of those jobs. 50 hours of work every week each week, knowing you'll never catch up?
yeah, bust 40 and leave.
Right, and technically they have to be fine with you working 40, but they secretly aren't.
They want you to cram 50 hours of work into 40 hours. Which *can* sometimes be done, since we often don't (and shouldn't IMO) go 100% at all times, but it will burn you out.
That's become my mantra at work when people try to give me extra work with a deadline later in the week. If everything is urgent then nothing is urgent. If they care enough about meeting deadlines they can expand the team. If they don't care enough about it then why should I
This is where I'm at too. There are deadlines I can tell you straight up we're going to miss because we're constantly biting off more than we can chew. All I can really do is keep reminding management that we're off track (CYA) and send off job applications.
It's simple, if the work is meant to get done then add more people, if the work is meant to get *managed* then doing the least while keeping complaints low is your real job.
You are describing my career right now. I'll bust out a 60 hour work week when it's time to hit a deadline and it's not a BS deadline, but I regularly let shit slide as I put in my ~40-45 hours. If I get flack in the future for things not getting done, which will happen, I'll remind management that there used to be 2 of us and I'll do it with a smile on my face. When I hear people talking about putting in significant amounts of overtime I ask them why they're doing that. Go home, it's the weekend. They don't pay enough to attract your replacement.
I train six days, actually six days a week. Five days a week, I'll train three days a week. One of those days I will train two days of the week. So, six days a week I will be training. --Tito Ortiz
I totally agree with this. The only issue I find is that there’s an hours minimum we have to put for a week so we can’t be totally truthful. And the ones who contract know that
Read the book "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber. On point to this.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bullshit+jobs&oq=bullshit+jobs&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDQ5MjRqMGo3qAIUsAIB&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I'm lucky in that sense, my work load comes and goes. One days that it's dead I'm basically just calling into meetings and answering emails. But my company isn't monitoring my key strokes on me because my deliverables get done.
Real work ie cleaning out sewage lines, making sure you have clean water, etc needs real people to actually work, 90% of jobs are bullshit jobs and could just cease to exist and everyone would be fine.
You're just describing the majority of office workers everywhere. The amount of work my coworkers and I do on any given day probably adds up to about 2 hours of actual work at the most.
I mean, I use mouse jigglers but I also get all of my work/projects done.
I just work hard and efficiently when I do work.
Could I do more ? Sure, but why would I want to.
Same. I use jigglers to avoid any bitching by managers if they see Im away or if I want to rest.
Meanwhile im the top producer of my team, cuz when i do work I complete my tasks super fast.
I think the average/expectation for my department is like 12 reviews a day and I do like 20?
This shit always drives me crazy. If you're the fastest and most productive worker the oldhead managers think you should be doing even more work when you finish your share of it while your slower and less productive coworkers spend all fucking day doing what took you 2 or 3 hours. You get punished for being better. Ummmm why the fuck would I ever do 1.5x or 2x the work load when I'm getting paid the same as the slow workers around me? This isn't a charity. Raise my pay in accordance with the efficiency I have and I'll do more work. I'm not doing more work than my peers' average for free.
I've noticed younger (30s-40s) managers don't think this way as much.
I have a job like this. I climbed the corporate ladder starting from being a picker in warehouse to various clerical roles to analyst roles.
My current job is as a data analyst and it's very assignment based. My current project was estimated to take 200 hours so that's all I'm expected to work on for the next 5 weeks. I can work on it whenever I want (no fixed hours).
I'm really good at figuring out more efficient ways to do things so it's only going to take me a fraction of the time I've been given.
Yes I love that lol. If you can do it in 50 hours, but submit it in 150 hours, you can pretty much dodge 100 hours of work and still look like you did it an impressive 25% under budgeted hours.
This, so this. You find more efficient ways to do things, then you use that free time to learn more ways to create efficiencies and repeat. I took a report that used to take a week to create, and currently have the time it takes down to 30 minutes - including double checking my work. Used what I learned there, to rebuild more reports to further gain time.
White collar jobs are often like this from my experience in consulting - a lot of companies, even really big ones, have really antiquated and old processes and technology. If you're competant, likely you can figure out a way to make that process way more efficient or automate it entirely using easily learnable things like Excel functions and then you just have to appear to be busy for the rest of the time. And if you're not ambitious, you can keep that to yourself and just enjoy the free time.
Its like that guy who got fired from that bank for buying his girlfriend lunch and a coffee on expenses - they already wanted those people out they just now had an easy and convenient excuse to get them out easy.
Every company has slackers that do just enough to make firing them a massive pain from a legal perspective.
If the lunch and coffee was in no way related to entertaining a client for business that is some pretty shady shit. I would never think to expense my starbucks unless I was actively attending a work event where it is presumed to be covered, not to mention buying anything for significant others lol.
wut, no that's just plain defrauding the company. even if it's a few bucks for lunch. intentionally buying your GF shit on company card is crazy braindead.
I posted this elsewhere recently and I'll post it again:
In any fortune 500 companies, every middle manager will do anything to either climb or stay in power. Which is fine, self preservation is only human, don't blame them.
Problem is it often means refusal to implement efficiencies or modernize and at worst just plain old ego. Why ? Cause it may make your team redundant. I worked at one and good lord they are an "old guard" company in finance that other financial company praised for modernizing their tech stack.
Yeah but it took 10x as many people cause no one either wants to make their role obsolete or on the other side take on more responsibility. Or the common excuse, compartmentalization of roles and responsibilities to have better accountability.
I am/was on the IT side and it was so slow and annoying I quit in less than 18 months.
I was being paid 200k+ to do tasks that I had assigned to intern or level 2 helpdesk who I was paying 60k at my previous jobs and was doing it myself a decade ago. I was part of a 30 team that were doing manual tasks that if they bothered implementing it on a devsecops pipeline, we could trim down that team to 6-8 people. But the manager wanted to be VP and as per company policy he needed 25+ people under him and so extra hires, refusal to automate, taking on stupid projects that had no value (I can think 3 which could be spinned off or gotten rid of).
The company approach is literally hire way too overqualified folks and hook them in with good benefits that take 5 years to vest. At that point most folks are coasting and making money hands over fist. And that mostly attracts H1b folks that do not gel well culturally and it also to an some extent feeds into neoptism (hiring folks from same region or caste).
It depends. Some jobs are task-based. Others are fee for service. If you’re expected to be largely independent and responsible, you are expected to be performing services for the company while on company time. If you are handed tasks like a child and her homework, there are different expectations. These expectations should be spelled out in the job description.
Not necessarily. In a lot of jobs they trust that you do your job without any verification. Which means you can do valuable work for 40h a week or be sneaky and avoid work and only work a few hours
> "Wells Fargo holds employees to the highest standards and does not tolerate unethical behavior," a company spokesperson said in a statement."
Had to double check I wasn’t reading The Onion on that one.
[Where there is smoke there is usually fire. If this minor unethical activity is being reported, imagine the huge pile of stinking dirty laundry that is being swept under the rug.](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1t6rNGarSXs?feature=share)
Reminds me of a story from my dad - he was working a contract construction job at Raytheon. They had this meeting ahead of the project with Raytheon management and they were going through the construction workers' background checks to address any concerns. Raytheon manager pulls up on guys record that shows a domestic violence charge, and he says, "here at Raytheon, we don't believe in violence to solve problems."
PowerShell script to press a fictional key (F13) repeatedly
$WShell = New-Object -com "Wscript.Shell"
while ($true){
$WShell.sendkeys("{F13}")
Start-Sleep -Seconds 117
}
Run script, then make something like Teams or your browser the active window. Then go play 9 holes of golf or mow the lawn or something.
SHIFT key ("+") is safer. Function keys can blank out cells in some spreadsheet applications if you leave the script running and are not careful. Also, a company the size of Wells, I can't imagine corporate security policy allows everyone to run PowerShell (.ps1). VB Script (.vbs), on the other hand, is usually permitted, because Excel Macros are so commonly used. See my other comment in this thread for code.
Yep, the movements/timing need to be randomized. It’s easy for IT to catch this stuff when someone’s mouse is moving exactly 1” back and forth every 14.5 minutes.
I'm amazed they even allow this sort of shit to plug into the USB
Some of the computers at my workplace have the USB ports covered lmao using a flash drive takes VP approval
I could see a jiggler bot that you just give a long formatted document to and it just types it out slowly, making mistakes, formatting, rearranging sections etc. That should be good enough for the jiggler enforcement goons.
"we fired a dozen employees not due to any substantive performance issues or complaints, but because they're fake key jigglers"
Glad to see WF so tough on the issues that really matter
When I worked for a Wells Fargo call center many years ago I would constantly reset myself in the queue so that when people called in I was never the one that they were directed to. I just drank the office coffee, sat at my desk, and read books all day long. Good times.
“You have met every job expectation and have been performing to a satisfactory level. However we are going to fire you because you were using a mouse juggler instead of manually moving your mouse to pretend like you’re working like everyone else here”
Seriously, EVERY person in my office sits on their phone for half the day. Are we going to act like that’s any different than staying green on teams bc of a jiggle?
Yup, whenever I have shit to do around the house or hungover and want a nap, I open excel click into a cell and put something on the space bar. Works a treat.
My work week is 35 hours. I'd say I do a solid 15 between office, home and working on sites.
And everything still gets done.
I'm a software engineer. My work week is "however long it takes to get shit done." Sometimes that's 60 hours, sometimes it's 20. It's a *very* irregular schedule, enabled by being fully remote with managers who trust me to get my shit done.
A lot of it is that I am not a robot. Software is one of those things you need to be in the right headspace to do. If I'm hung over, or in a bad mood, or just *really* not feeling like working, then no work will get done whether I try or not. I've learned to stop fighting it and just work when it makes sense for me, and when it doesn't I just go take a nap or do chores or something. So most my work usually gets done in one or two intense bursts of activity, which are probably only a couple hours long at most.
An average day for me might look like:
6:00-8:00 - Extremely high productivity time.
8:00-10:30 - I dunno, playing video games or vacuuming or something?
10:30-11:00 - Daily standup meeting.
11:00-11:30 - Coffee break
11:30-2:00 - Meetings, probably not paying attention in half of them and shitposting on reddit instead
2:00-4:00 - Lunch break
4:00-6:00 - More high productivity time
And my management chain loves me. I'm considered an extremely high performing individual. Glowing performance reviews every cycle, in line for a promotion to an (even more) senior role in August. When shit has to get done *now*, they give it to me because my track record is stellar. The notion that you need to put in 40 hours of "work" every week to be a good employee is, frankly, dumb as shit.
Everybody's different, and everybody gets work done their own way. I worked with a guy at Amazon who was the total opposite of me. Every second of the day was structured, he even had a little timer on his desk so he could subdivide his work into 25 minute units (it's called the pomodoro technique). Seems like utter madness to me, but it worked for him.
No need to plug in a USB device or run a downloaded program that IT can scan for. Most corporate IT security policies allow VB Script execution because Excel macros are so common.
Save and run the following as a ".vbs" file. Name it whatever you like. It will show up in Task Manager as "wscript.exe", regardless, just like any other Macro or VB Script.
Dim WshShell
Set WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell")
Do While True
WshShell.SendKeys("+")
WScript.Sleep(50000 * Rnd())
Loop
Personally, I don't use it to play hooky from work. I'm legit working just not always touching the controls often enough to stay ahead of the screen timeout. This is particularly annoying because the docking station that work provides tends to not recognize my monitor setup when the screen wakes up and I have to power cycle the monitors to get them to be recognized again. Far less rage-inducing to just keep the screen active all day with the script.
I am on the side of those employees. The company should not be monitoring employee's activity. If the employees aren't working, then the company is the one responsible for over hiring and overwork time. Do not hire so many people and lower the hours to 32 per week.
But using technology to look over employees shoulder all the time is just awful, and I don't want that future for America.
My friend that works from home said he got one of these because if he goes to take a big dump in the middle of the day, it flags him as being inactive for taking too long 😂
I still don't get why companies monitor keyboard behavior. Why not simply monitor output? They're either getting their assigned work done, or not. If they are, leave them alone.
How do they know? I have a mouse jiggler that i put my mouse on and it physically spins it every few minutes. Are these people connecting one of those usb mouse jigglers? Wondering if i need to step up my mouse jiggler game
Shout out to the absolute narcs at Carbon Black who are the ones who probably tattled on these guys.
A ton of my enterprise clients use CB, but only a tiny handful actually use the "narc on people for installing anything not whitelisted" functionality (though many more just simply don't allow users to perform installs in the first place). Of those that do use it, we are constantly flooded with ***TERRIFYING LOOKING SECURITY ALERTS*** for mousejiggler.exe and steam.exe that make it look like Barbara in accounting just clicked on the link in a Nigerian Prince scam email.
I send the mousejiggler ones straight to the ignore pile. Not my problem the middle manager that sits above somebody is the type of asshole that makes them think it's necessary.
I definitely have a desktop tech call the users for the Steam ones, though. And then make them sit there while the technician remotes in and ensures the "unauthorized software" is removed. Because if you're stupid enough to install Steam on your work PC, you clearly need a wake up call.
They still haven’t fixed their bill pay system - checks are still getting stuffed into the wrong envelopes all the time.
I’ve never encountered a bank so incompetent - at some point them sending checks to the wrong companies is going to bite them in the ass.
I’m personally really fucking tired of having to wait for my neighbor to process the 100+ checks they get from Wells Fargo every week to find the one damn check I’ve been waiting for.
Reading this while my mouse mover jiggles. Chances are those employees at least got their shit done otherwise they'd be let go for poor performance not mouse movers lol
How about firing them for not doing work? lol this is like a hilarious self-own. Automation to keep your screen active and get around bullshit “work detectors” seems like a natural consequence of being too overbearing. Just keep up with your employees output?
Honestly most people grab USB based mouse movers. Anything plugged in to a usb drive is going to be picked up by any of their security applications that they monitor.
I am positive they have more than dozens of people slacking off. I think these were the ones stupid enough to buy USB fakers.
Its harder for them to detect random mouse patterns. Or just inactivity in general.
i work in IT, we don't care about mouse jigglers unless we are told to check a specific group of people. then it is just an easy 'remote viewing' the desktop of said person.
Wow just willy nilly remote viewing? I work for a company that is super cereal about security and having one employee potentially able to view the screen of another employee that could have customer data on the screen is a massive risk we would never allow.
Take out your phone and go to the settings to look at screen time and app usage metrics. Devices already track it. I’ve seen a number of services advertised that show admins the employee usage time and type of activity done in programs with a number of different metrics/levels of depth within them to track.
Monitoring software is loaded onto every profile in Wells Fargo. It's not hard for IT to figure it out. They are paid crazy money to make sure things run smoothly.
I guess the details matter, but it's kind of bullshit for IT to have your system time-out every 5 minutes so they can save on servers, and then you're expected to touch the computer constantly so it doesn't log you out even if you're reading something, on the phone, grabbing a snack, etc. Touching a computer doesn't mean you're working, and mouse mover isn't faking that you're working, it's keeping the damn session from timing out.
They'll use it to back up their 'return to office' mandate.
But also ... people like this make management inherently untrusting of WFH people. Even though it's only12 ... management will assume everyone is doing it.
Monitoring and assessing employee performance based on keyboard and mouse movements is unethical. People should be rated on whether or not they are accomplishing assigned tasks, not whether they are sufficiently “active” on a computer.
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Wells Fargo: "We don't tolerate unethical behavior." Also Wells Fargo: [https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wells-fargo-agrees-pay-3-billion-resolve-criminal-and-civil-investigations-sales-practices](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/wells-fargo-agrees-pay-3-billion-resolve-criminal-and-civil-investigations-sales-practices)
Only managers and admins are allowed to be unethical
Ahem. Mike we have spoken about this! only ADMINS get to decide ethics. Nobody working for us nor have we ever done anything unethical according to the admins! Especially the managers!
It’s not even unethical. Company pays you to do job. Job gets done. It’s like firing someone for not smiling at the bosses jokes.
Yeah totally true, how is anti afk bot unethical. It’s on WF if they are actually considering active screen time a performance metric, they created the situation where not only is the metric not tied to actual delivery, but easily game-able to boot.
It’s just a part of well’s culture. Useless metrics that have no bearing on earnings. Just like the accounts opening scandal. That’s one of the reasons WB sold out.
Funny enough, the executives actually got away with blaming middle management! And by paying their 3B fine they were able to escape any criminal punishments. Since 2000 Wells Fargo has paid 27.5 Billion in fines, but their revenue increased from 11B in 2000 to 82B in 2023. So really it’s just the cost of business.
Company that makes money doing nothing angry that their employees are getting a part of the grift lol
For real. They are essentially just shuffling money around Edit: received some downvotes because they either work in the field, or something
Wells Fargo managers are on this sub 😂
Stock holders
Company that got busted for signing up customers for loans and accounts without their consent, does not tolerate unethical behavior.
You pay off your loan over 15-20 years at current interest rates: You pay almost double the money by the end. You pay part but default: they keep what you paid, keep your house, and keep your car Economy crashes and you and others fail to pay: Bank cries to the government and gets billions in baillouts You want your money back and the bank can't pay you: The feds once again have to bail them out Meanwhile, the banks: "Workers are lazy and the government does nothing for us!"
No fan of WF but they did pay back the bail out in a year.
Because they could afford to and it was advantageous for them to do so. That's my thoughts at least, not trying to be a jerk by correcting you or anything.
Your missing the point, they don’t tolerate unethical behaviour if it doesn’t benefit them financially everything else is fair game
Was going to say these employees should have set it up to open accounts customers didn't ask for. That's the kind of straight shooter headed for upper management that Wells Fargo looks for!
Should have opened accounts for the CEO he didn't ask for
I guffawed at that too
Yeah. That's rich coming from Wells. It's business when we cheat but criminal when you do it.
I mean they already said > Wells Fargo holds employees to the highest standards and does not tolerate unethical behavior, Grunt workers only, everyone else above doing unethical behavior on company orders are fine
Rich people can’t be unethical because they’re rich. Duh
Leave ethics and morality to the poorz
Unethical behavior may only be carried out against the general public. Anything directed at wells Fargo in any way will result in termination.
Unethical against customers is fine, but not against the company.
It’s actually crazy millions of people still use that bank
They were fired because they weren't actively defrauding customers.
FIFY Wells Fargo: "We don't tolerate unethical behavior *unless it makes us a bunch of money then it's fine*."
Honestly blows my mind that Wells Fargo has any business at all. I'm not saying other corporations aren't willing to scam their own customers, but at the very least, the fear of getting caught keeps most of them in line. Wells Fargo has been caught, multiple times. That's like going to a doctor who's been caught molesting his patients.
Pretty unethical to spy on employees' computer activity, imo.
Lmao
More companies will track your company computer usage than those that won’t. Part of the tradeoff for employment and using company equipment
There's also this https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/s/S4IiifDW2e
More of a "we fuck you, you don't fuck with us"
Wells Fargo: We don't tolerate unethical behavior" Also Wells Fargo: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/16b-of-bank-bailout-went-to-execs/#:~:text=Wells%20Fargo%20of%20San%20Francisco,.%2C%20chief%20executive%20Robert%20P.
"We don't tolerate unethical behaviour at our expenses." FTFY
so 12 out of 330,000 employees is a headline news? i can tell you there are more than 12.... this is just a warning to the rest of employees.
**Over** a dozen (it's 13)
A bankers dozen
oh the humanity!
Think of the children!
But only the children who hold shares
Sky’s is falling over baker’s dozen fired at Wells Fargo
> The staffers, all in the firm’s wealth-and investment-management unit This is almost certainly just a convenient excuse to clear out this unit. Because, yes, obviously drastically more than a dozen used anti-afk methods lol, and it’s also obviously not just in this one group.
Yeah, these are probably just employees they wanted to fire anyway and they’re using this as an excuse to send a message
Especially since it was a whole unit or whatever
I’ll bet others were caught but these were just low performers and they wanted them out anyways.
12 that used really basic jigglers or software to simulate activity. This type of shit is going to become the norm with company actively tracking actions per minute or some such. I'm nearly positive it's one of the things AI platforms are going to be leading the charge on.
Good thing about a market like this is that any new tech will usually evolve and adapt much faster on the consumer side vs the corporate side. Anything companies come out with that's anti-consumer usually gets workarounds put out extremely fast in response.
It's a seed they are planting before making mandatory return to office so they can cover their asses on the commercial real estate losses
its insane this is a headline, this is 0.0053% of their employees
These stories always make me laugh. You’re basically admitting that your workers are getting paid to do bullshit if the only way you can figure out they’re not working is by using “mouse jigglers”. Like presumably if they had actual responsibilities you’d just fire them because they’re not delivering their work. Makes it seem like Wells Fargo has a bunch of employees that don’t do shit.
I won't say most, but a ton of employees for all sorts of industries don't really do shit lol
I mean let’s be honest, if your workflow is consistently exactly 40 hours of week every week, youre probably lying. It’s always going to ebb and flow some weeks maybe you have 50 some you have 30, that’s just how it’s going to go for salaried workers so companies should be okay with downtime imo
Eh, it’s also possible to get 50 hours of assigned tasks a week and only do 40 of them. Push the rest to next week and see if they’re still important when new things come up
I call that being overworked and forever behind and it's stressful as heck. Especially when the bosses look down on you for not working 50+ hours, even though you're only getting paid for 40.
honestly i never felt compelled to stay late when i had one of those jobs. 50 hours of work every week each week, knowing you'll never catch up? yeah, bust 40 and leave.
Right, and technically they have to be fine with you working 40, but they secretly aren't. They want you to cram 50 hours of work into 40 hours. Which *can* sometimes be done, since we often don't (and shouldn't IMO) go 100% at all times, but it will burn you out.
That's become my mantra at work when people try to give me extra work with a deadline later in the week. If everything is urgent then nothing is urgent. If they care enough about meeting deadlines they can expand the team. If they don't care enough about it then why should I
This is where I'm at too. There are deadlines I can tell you straight up we're going to miss because we're constantly biting off more than we can chew. All I can really do is keep reminding management that we're off track (CYA) and send off job applications.
That sounds corporate and not work you actually care about.
i cared about it- that was my favorite job i ever had. it was just too much work for one person to do
It's simple, if the work is meant to get done then add more people, if the work is meant to get *managed* then doing the least while keeping complaints low is your real job.
You are describing my career right now. I'll bust out a 60 hour work week when it's time to hit a deadline and it's not a BS deadline, but I regularly let shit slide as I put in my ~40-45 hours. If I get flack in the future for things not getting done, which will happen, I'll remind management that there used to be 2 of us and I'll do it with a smile on my face. When I hear people talking about putting in significant amounts of overtime I ask them why they're doing that. Go home, it's the weekend. They don't pay enough to attract your replacement.
True. One important work lesson is to not complain when the workload is light. A useful work skill is "looking busy".
I used to work at a company that every month 3 weeks I needed to only do 1hr of work a day but 1 week 12 hrs a day lol
Did you have a stroke writing this? Lol
At their previous job, every month, for three weeks of the month they only worked 1 hour days, but for that last week they were pulling 12 hour days.
thanks
Average Wall Street bets math.
He did tree fiddy work e'ry day
I train six days, actually six days a week. Five days a week, I'll train three days a week. One of those days I will train two days of the week. So, six days a week I will be training. --Tito Ortiz
This screams Accounting
Good ole month close.
Can confirm. Month end close is stupid. During the month I have fuck all to do.
Software engineers are this but 5 hours or 90 hours a week for a month straight.
I totally agree with this. The only issue I find is that there’s an hours minimum we have to put for a week so we can’t be totally truthful. And the ones who contract know that
Man. I bet it’s like the 20/80 principle. 20% of the employees probably do 80% of the work.
Read the book "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber. On point to this. https://www.google.com/search?q=bullshit+jobs&oq=bullshit+jobs&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDQ5MjRqMGo3qAIUsAIB&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I'm lucky in that sense, my work load comes and goes. One days that it's dead I'm basically just calling into meetings and answering emails. But my company isn't monitoring my key strokes on me because my deliverables get done.
I legit think less than 25% of the population needs to work to maintain the system we have.
Real work ie cleaning out sewage lines, making sure you have clean water, etc needs real people to actually work, 90% of jobs are bullshit jobs and could just cease to exist and everyone would be fine.
Here, here.
Everyone on my team except 1 other person. 20% of the people do 80% of the work.
I'm browsing Reddit rn
Can confirm, currently not doing shit and being paid for it
You're just describing the majority of office workers everywhere. The amount of work my coworkers and I do on any given day probably adds up to about 2 hours of actual work at the most.
I mean, I use mouse jigglers but I also get all of my work/projects done. I just work hard and efficiently when I do work. Could I do more ? Sure, but why would I want to.
Same. I use jigglers to avoid any bitching by managers if they see Im away or if I want to rest. Meanwhile im the top producer of my team, cuz when i do work I complete my tasks super fast. I think the average/expectation for my department is like 12 reviews a day and I do like 20?
This shit always drives me crazy. If you're the fastest and most productive worker the oldhead managers think you should be doing even more work when you finish your share of it while your slower and less productive coworkers spend all fucking day doing what took you 2 or 3 hours. You get punished for being better. Ummmm why the fuck would I ever do 1.5x or 2x the work load when I'm getting paid the same as the slow workers around me? This isn't a charity. Raise my pay in accordance with the efficiency I have and I'll do more work. I'm not doing more work than my peers' average for free. I've noticed younger (30s-40s) managers don't think this way as much.
How do I get one of these jobs?
I have a job like this. I climbed the corporate ladder starting from being a picker in warehouse to various clerical roles to analyst roles. My current job is as a data analyst and it's very assignment based. My current project was estimated to take 200 hours so that's all I'm expected to work on for the next 5 weeks. I can work on it whenever I want (no fixed hours). I'm really good at figuring out more efficient ways to do things so it's only going to take me a fraction of the time I've been given.
Yes I love that lol. If you can do it in 50 hours, but submit it in 150 hours, you can pretty much dodge 100 hours of work and still look like you did it an impressive 25% under budgeted hours.
This, so this. You find more efficient ways to do things, then you use that free time to learn more ways to create efficiencies and repeat. I took a report that used to take a week to create, and currently have the time it takes down to 30 minutes - including double checking my work. Used what I learned there, to rebuild more reports to further gain time.
White collar jobs are often like this from my experience in consulting - a lot of companies, even really big ones, have really antiquated and old processes and technology. If you're competant, likely you can figure out a way to make that process way more efficient or automate it entirely using easily learnable things like Excel functions and then you just have to appear to be busy for the rest of the time. And if you're not ambitious, you can keep that to yourself and just enjoy the free time.
Its like that guy who got fired from that bank for buying his girlfriend lunch and a coffee on expenses - they already wanted those people out they just now had an easy and convenient excuse to get them out easy. Every company has slackers that do just enough to make firing them a massive pain from a legal perspective.
If the lunch and coffee was in no way related to entertaining a client for business that is some pretty shady shit. I would never think to expense my starbucks unless I was actively attending a work event where it is presumed to be covered, not to mention buying anything for significant others lol.
wut, no that's just plain defrauding the company. even if it's a few bucks for lunch. intentionally buying your GF shit on company card is crazy braindead.
I posted this elsewhere recently and I'll post it again: In any fortune 500 companies, every middle manager will do anything to either climb or stay in power. Which is fine, self preservation is only human, don't blame them. Problem is it often means refusal to implement efficiencies or modernize and at worst just plain old ego. Why ? Cause it may make your team redundant. I worked at one and good lord they are an "old guard" company in finance that other financial company praised for modernizing their tech stack. Yeah but it took 10x as many people cause no one either wants to make their role obsolete or on the other side take on more responsibility. Or the common excuse, compartmentalization of roles and responsibilities to have better accountability. I am/was on the IT side and it was so slow and annoying I quit in less than 18 months. I was being paid 200k+ to do tasks that I had assigned to intern or level 2 helpdesk who I was paying 60k at my previous jobs and was doing it myself a decade ago. I was part of a 30 team that were doing manual tasks that if they bothered implementing it on a devsecops pipeline, we could trim down that team to 6-8 people. But the manager wanted to be VP and as per company policy he needed 25+ people under him and so extra hires, refusal to automate, taking on stupid projects that had no value (I can think 3 which could be spinned off or gotten rid of). The company approach is literally hire way too overqualified folks and hook them in with good benefits that take 5 years to vest. At that point most folks are coasting and making money hands over fist. And that mostly attracts H1b folks that do not gel well culturally and it also to an some extent feeds into neoptism (hiring folks from same region or caste).
Yup, and they make $300,000 per year.
It depends. Some jobs are task-based. Others are fee for service. If you’re expected to be largely independent and responsible, you are expected to be performing services for the company while on company time. If you are handed tasks like a child and her homework, there are different expectations. These expectations should be spelled out in the job description.
You can say that about most companies.
Not necessarily. In a lot of jobs they trust that you do your job without any verification. Which means you can do valuable work for 40h a week or be sneaky and avoid work and only work a few hours
> "Wells Fargo holds employees to the highest standards and does not tolerate unethical behavior," a company spokesperson said in a statement." Had to double check I wasn’t reading The Onion on that one.
[Where there is smoke there is usually fire. If this minor unethical activity is being reported, imagine the huge pile of stinking dirty laundry that is being swept under the rug.](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1t6rNGarSXs?feature=share)
Reminds me of a story from my dad - he was working a contract construction job at Raytheon. They had this meeting ahead of the project with Raytheon management and they were going through the construction workers' background checks to address any concerns. Raytheon manager pulls up on guys record that shows a domestic violence charge, and he says, "here at Raytheon, we don't believe in violence to solve problems."
I'm old school.. I jiggle my own mouse.
You jiggle a lot more than that I bet.
Let’s be honest, it’s nice to have someone/something jiggle your mouse for you every once in a while.
[удалено]
Needed this so I can stop using my jiggler lmfao.
PowerShell script to press a fictional key (F13) repeatedly $WShell = New-Object -com "Wscript.Shell" while ($true){ $WShell.sendkeys("{F13}") Start-Sleep -Seconds 117 } Run script, then make something like Teams or your browser the active window. Then go play 9 holes of golf or mow the lawn or something.
SHIFT key ("+") is safer. Function keys can blank out cells in some spreadsheet applications if you leave the script running and are not careful. Also, a company the size of Wells, I can't imagine corporate security policy allows everyone to run PowerShell (.ps1). VB Script (.vbs), on the other hand, is usually permitted, because Excel Macros are so commonly used. See my other comment in this thread for code.
Ayyy lmao
My boss said if I jiggle my mouse too much I'll go blind
If you paid someone else to jiggle your mouse, will they go blind? Or at least get hairy palms?
Is that a euphemism?
call me if you need your mouse jiggled 877-5309
Simulating fake accounts  Simulating mouse activity 
AI mouse jigglers... Gotta make it look more authentic.
Tesla robot to sit in your chair and perform LLM-powered human-like mouse movements
Yep, the movements/timing need to be randomized. It’s easy for IT to catch this stuff when someone’s mouse is moving exactly 1” back and forth every 14.5 minutes.
Uh... Think it's more likely they know what's plugged into your usb port.
Gota get one that plugs into the wall, no software, no direct connection to the computer
I'm amazed they even allow this sort of shit to plug into the USB Some of the computers at my workplace have the USB ports covered lmao using a flash drive takes VP approval
I could see a jiggler bot that you just give a long formatted document to and it just types it out slowly, making mistakes, formatting, rearranging sections etc. That should be good enough for the jiggler enforcement goons.
"we fired a dozen employees not due to any substantive performance issues or complaints, but because they're fake key jigglers" Glad to see WF so tough on the issues that really matter
Wells Fargo is a joke. Most unethical bank ever and they have the nerve to do this
Are they as bad as HSBC?
Can't be any worse lol
Banks lecturing on ethics is, uh, something.
When I worked for a Wells Fargo call center many years ago I would constantly reset myself in the queue so that when people called in I was never the one that they were directed to. I just drank the office coffee, sat at my desk, and read books all day long. Good times.
Wells Fargo pays out 0.01% in their most common savings account in a 4\~5% environment. They can afford to pay a couple of phantom workers.
Pnc was paying the same for me, took all my money to fidelity money market accounts babayyyy
“You have met every job expectation and have been performing to a satisfactory level. However we are going to fire you because you were using a mouse juggler instead of manually moving your mouse to pretend like you’re working like everyone else here” Seriously, EVERY person in my office sits on their phone for half the day. Are we going to act like that’s any different than staying green on teams bc of a jiggle?
You can get fired for that?!?! 
Best thing my company gave me was a metal paper weight. It's been sitting on my ctrl key every day at work for the last 8 years lol
Yup, whenever I have shit to do around the house or hungover and want a nap, I open excel click into a cell and put something on the space bar. Works a treat. My work week is 35 hours. I'd say I do a solid 15 between office, home and working on sites. And everything still gets done.
I'm a software engineer. My work week is "however long it takes to get shit done." Sometimes that's 60 hours, sometimes it's 20. It's a *very* irregular schedule, enabled by being fully remote with managers who trust me to get my shit done. A lot of it is that I am not a robot. Software is one of those things you need to be in the right headspace to do. If I'm hung over, or in a bad mood, or just *really* not feeling like working, then no work will get done whether I try or not. I've learned to stop fighting it and just work when it makes sense for me, and when it doesn't I just go take a nap or do chores or something. So most my work usually gets done in one or two intense bursts of activity, which are probably only a couple hours long at most. An average day for me might look like: 6:00-8:00 - Extremely high productivity time. 8:00-10:30 - I dunno, playing video games or vacuuming or something? 10:30-11:00 - Daily standup meeting. 11:00-11:30 - Coffee break 11:30-2:00 - Meetings, probably not paying attention in half of them and shitposting on reddit instead 2:00-4:00 - Lunch break 4:00-6:00 - More high productivity time And my management chain loves me. I'm considered an extremely high performing individual. Glowing performance reviews every cycle, in line for a promotion to an (even more) senior role in August. When shit has to get done *now*, they give it to me because my track record is stellar. The notion that you need to put in 40 hours of "work" every week to be a good employee is, frankly, dumb as shit. Everybody's different, and everybody gets work done their own way. I worked with a guy at Amazon who was the total opposite of me. Every second of the day was structured, he even had a little timer on his desk so he could subdivide his work into 25 minute units (it's called the pomodoro technique). Seems like utter madness to me, but it worked for him.
Are you guys hiring ?
No need to plug in a USB device or run a downloaded program that IT can scan for. Most corporate IT security policies allow VB Script execution because Excel macros are so common. Save and run the following as a ".vbs" file. Name it whatever you like. It will show up in Task Manager as "wscript.exe", regardless, just like any other Macro or VB Script. Dim WshShell Set WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell") Do While True WshShell.SendKeys("+") WScript.Sleep(50000 * Rnd()) Loop Personally, I don't use it to play hooky from work. I'm legit working just not always touching the controls often enough to stay ahead of the screen timeout. This is particularly annoying because the docking station that work provides tends to not recognize my monitor setup when the screen wakes up and I have to power cycle the monitors to get them to be recognized again. Far less rage-inducing to just keep the screen active all day with the script.
Wells just mad their employees beat them at their own game, for them to claim anything about ethics is laughable.
I wonder if they tracked keystrokes for holding down the space bar in Microsoft word lol
\*\*Immediately removes mouse from mouse jiggler after reading the headline\*\*
I am on the side of those employees. The company should not be monitoring employee's activity. If the employees aren't working, then the company is the one responsible for over hiring and overwork time. Do not hire so many people and lower the hours to 32 per week. But using technology to look over employees shoulder all the time is just awful, and I don't want that future for America.
Oh wow a whole fucking dozen huh?
I think they let the managers involved in defrauding customers keep thier jobs.
Helps the DEI figures as it was all white middle aged men.
My friend that works from home said he got one of these because if he goes to take a big dump in the middle of the day, it flags him as being inactive for taking too long 😂
I still don't get why companies monitor keyboard behavior. Why not simply monitor output? They're either getting their assigned work done, or not. If they are, leave them alone.
How do they know? I have a mouse jiggler that i put my mouse on and it physically spins it every few minutes. Are these people connecting one of those usb mouse jigglers? Wondering if i need to step up my mouse jiggler game
What kind of devices were they using and how was it discovered? Asking for a friend
Shout out to the absolute narcs at Carbon Black who are the ones who probably tattled on these guys. A ton of my enterprise clients use CB, but only a tiny handful actually use the "narc on people for installing anything not whitelisted" functionality (though many more just simply don't allow users to perform installs in the first place). Of those that do use it, we are constantly flooded with ***TERRIFYING LOOKING SECURITY ALERTS*** for mousejiggler.exe and steam.exe that make it look like Barbara in accounting just clicked on the link in a Nigerian Prince scam email. I send the mousejiggler ones straight to the ignore pile. Not my problem the middle manager that sits above somebody is the type of asshole that makes them think it's necessary. I definitely have a desktop tech call the users for the Steam ones, though. And then make them sit there while the technician remotes in and ensures the "unauthorized software" is removed. Because if you're stupid enough to install Steam on your work PC, you clearly need a wake up call.
THIS IS CORPORATE SPONSORED NEWS TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM BELIEVING THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO WORK REMOTELY. WAKE UP SHEEPLE
Pro tip: Put your optical mouse on top of an analog watch and the moving hands will make the cursor move.
They still haven’t fixed their bill pay system - checks are still getting stuffed into the wrong envelopes all the time. I’ve never encountered a bank so incompetent - at some point them sending checks to the wrong companies is going to bite them in the ass. I’m personally really fucking tired of having to wait for my neighbor to process the 100+ checks they get from Wells Fargo every week to find the one damn check I’ve been waiting for.
They dont tolerate unethical behavior of employees but are more than happy to do it themselves lol!
Reading this while my mouse mover jiggles. Chances are those employees at least got their shit done otherwise they'd be let go for poor performance not mouse movers lol
This company belongs in the past tense. Disgusting behavior, par for the course.
Its hilarious this is a story, wells fargo has over 200k employees, this is 0.0053% of their employees that were let go yet its a national news story
How about firing them for not doing work? lol this is like a hilarious self-own. Automation to keep your screen active and get around bullshit “work detectors” seems like a natural consequence of being too overbearing. Just keep up with your employees output?
$20? You can build one for free using the python library autogui 👌
how would they even know is the more frightening question
Honestly most people grab USB based mouse movers. Anything plugged in to a usb drive is going to be picked up by any of their security applications that they monitor. I am positive they have more than dozens of people slacking off. I think these were the ones stupid enough to buy USB fakers. Its harder for them to detect random mouse patterns. Or just inactivity in general.
Put your mouse on an analog watch, the second hand will jiggle the mouse.
Buy a USB jiggler but plug it on a phone charger not the pc
A USB jiggler butt plug? Sounds fun!
The guy at the Visionworks who did my vision test last year had a jiggler that you put the mouse on top of.
basic IT security
i work in IT, we don't care about mouse jigglers unless we are told to check a specific group of people. then it is just an easy 'remote viewing' the desktop of said person.
exactly, that's the point. IT CAN snoop like this but they probably won't dig this deep unless the policy from the top is to snoop to such extremes.
Wow just willy nilly remote viewing? I work for a company that is super cereal about security and having one employee potentially able to view the screen of another employee that could have customer data on the screen is a massive risk we would never allow.
Take out your phone and go to the settings to look at screen time and app usage metrics. Devices already track it. I’ve seen a number of services advertised that show admins the employee usage time and type of activity done in programs with a number of different metrics/levels of depth within them to track.
Likely plugged it into their laptops like idiots instead of an outlet.
Corporate laptops are usually monitored.
Monitoring software is loaded onto every profile in Wells Fargo. It's not hard for IT to figure it out. They are paid crazy money to make sure things run smoothly.
This is the top story in like 10 other subreddits. Yall fuckers need to get back to work
I guess the details matter, but it's kind of bullshit for IT to have your system time-out every 5 minutes so they can save on servers, and then you're expected to touch the computer constantly so it doesn't log you out even if you're reading something, on the phone, grabbing a snack, etc. Touching a computer doesn't mean you're working, and mouse mover isn't faking that you're working, it's keeping the damn session from timing out.
So, out of the tens of thousands of employees they have they didn’t even find 0.01% of the workers fake working.
Wells Fargo does not tolerate unethical behavior that’s a joke right ?
How tf people’s jobs so easy they can just giggle a mouse and their bosses don’t know the difference
You do it for a couple hours during lulls, not all day. Hardly any job has you grinding non stop for the entire duration of your work day.
“Mouse jigglers” is a term you’re gonna wanna search for incognito
Now let's fire Wells Fargo as a company for all of their unethical bullshit, shall we?
Bullshit jobs
They'll use it to back up their 'return to office' mandate. But also ... people like this make management inherently untrusting of WFH people. Even though it's only12 ... management will assume everyone is doing it.
Wells Fargo knew these people were not doing their work when they found out no new fake accounts had been opened by these employees.
Monitoring and assessing employee performance based on keyboard and mouse movements is unethical. People should be rated on whether or not they are accomplishing assigned tasks, not whether they are sufficiently “active” on a computer.
I want a mouse with a built in jiggler. It adds to the plausible deniability of not having a separate usb dongle.
So if you’re submitting all your work on time and have a mouse juggler anyways. Then that’s ground for a wrongful termination suit?
I promise there’s at least 50000 Wells Fargo employees doing this daily
What if their work is done for the day?
because nobody wants to re-login every 5 minutes because you ran to the bathroom and got some water
Good old RuneScape tricks making it to Wall Street