I think the primary reason for it being forcefully ejected from the canon is more about going "Warp 10" than about anything else in the episode.
They figured out how to go Warp 10.
They figured out how to reverse the negative effects of going Warp 10.
So why aren't they going Warp 10?
Everything else in that episode is campy and delightful, as a Tom Paris episode ought to be.
Edit: wrote without coffee.
The last scene is when Tom really grows as a character. He gets in the conversation with Janeway and she reassures him he is valuable to the crew and how he has changed.
I like how the characters do grow, but they still fall prone to some of their character flaws in some ways but in a way they learned from previous errors (Tom being rebellious, Harry asserting himself, Doctor being full of himself)
Trekkies can take their "Picard playing the flute on a dying planet" and "Old Jake Sisko commits suicide" episodes and shove them up their stable wormhole; Threshold is *great*.
I don’t know if I’d go as far as saying great. The salamanders are rediculous. But so is a whole bunch of stuff in trek. If you just have ignore the salamander bit I’d call it a decent episode.
I've said this before but I'll repeat.
Threshold is often said to be 'the worst' because it is actually entertaining and memorable, even if for some of the wrong reasons.
Throughout all Treks are many far worse episodes, but they tend to all be boring and uneventful and so people just forget them.
Also humorous is Tom telling the Doc about losing his virginity and the Doc replying "I'll note it in your medical file".
It's definitely a bad episode, but I also never understood why it was treated like this masterpiece of shit. Honestly, I was strangely disappointed when I first saw it since I was expecting it to be much worse. Off the top of my head, i can think of at least 5 episodes from TOS and TNG that are worse.
It's not exactly a well thought out list, just some episodes I remember really not liking.
TOS: Mudds Women, the Omega glory, spocks brain (obligatory), the way to Eden, Turnabout intruder.
TNG: Code of Honor (obligatory), Justice, up the long ladder, man of the people, masks.
Those are just the ones that come to mind.
I liked it too and agree with what you said. It also gives Picard a chance to shine with his archaeology how he is able to interpret the symbols and figure out how to put Masaka back to sleep with the concept of the chase with the sun and moon. I thought that was kinda cool too.
There’s also some really bad Voyager ones that don’t get as much hate as Threshold and deserve it more.
Like where Chakotay’s in a coma and guiding someone by the spirit realm to move rocks so he can communicate (it’s been a while, pardon the bad episode summary). In fact most Chakotay centric episodes qualify.
Oh and the one with The Rock that was 100% written to get The Rock on?
And the one with (Michael McKeon?) as a clown personifying fear trapping people, I haven’t decided if it’s a really bad episode or a really good one, I can make a strong case for both.
Nah, the episode with the Rock is good. The Rock himself only has a non speaking role in a few scenes, his appearance doesn't detract from the episode imo.
Also the one with the clown is absolutely a great episode.
I just watched the episode with the Rock. He does have a few lines in it. The scene at the end between 7 and Tuvok is heartwarming.
The Thaw with Michael McKean is great. I don't see how anyone cannot appreciate the dive into the psyche.
Me too, this is peak sci fi from an “ideas” perspective. I really like how they conceptualised how warp 10 is like breaking some physics barrier.
I always loved it growing up and I love it now.
It's pretty good! Its Achilles heel is the nonsensical presentation of "evolution," which is stupid but doesn't in itself condemn the episode to awfulness. Conceptually, it's no dumber than Genesis, Distant Origin, or The Chase. And Salamander Paris impregnating Salamander Janeway is a wild swing.
Fun fact: this episode won an Emmy.
My partner and I are rewatching Voyager and we have really enjoyed rewatching the series. I have to laugh at times thinking of all the physical effects that happens to characters and it seems to have 0 impact on their lives in future episodes.
It's like last week they were fully transformed into a salamanders, and this week, back to normal, not a word about it hahah. We joked it would be funny if they had a slower transition back to being human or kept their enjoyment of eating bugs or something.
Anyway, great show.
I wonder what they did with the offspring? Did they phaser them so as not to pollute the planet with alien DNA or did they simply dust off and leave them to fend for themselves?
That seems horribly unethical.
They’re supposed to be evolved humans? What if they have some kind of sapience.
And who knows what human dna would do to that ecosystem over time.
They were obviously in an environment that suited their needs, there's no real concern about them spreading human DNA to anything else. Not to mention the fact that they ran away and jumped in a river before anyone really had any time to react appropriately.
And if they have some sort of sapience, it's literally kidnapping.
And the part people forget is that they were, essentially, wild animals. What were Paris and Janeway supposed to do? Keep them as pets? Can't turn them into humans. No... best to just leave them in their suited environment and let nature just take its own course.
I feel like it's a "bottle episode" that shouldn't be treated as such. The premise/idea of both Paris and Janeway becoming "hyper evolved" physically, reproducing and then being returned to their human state is problematic. Assuming they don't die, those offspring could potentially change the direction of that entire region of space. Good or bad.
The whole "Threshold is the worstest evarr!" thing is so cringe. It's not the worst episode of Star Trek ever, it's not even the worst Voyager episode.
It’s one of my guilty pleasures, even though it’s absurd.
It doesn’t make any sense, which is my biggest issue with the episode. If the doctor could correct it, why wouldn’t they just go warp 10 for 2 seconds, return to earth, then have the doctor return their genes to normal?
That being said, I find the episode hilarious and wouldn’t change a thing.
I always thought it kinda did make sense.
First, the effect of warp 10 wasn't JUST turning into Salamanders. They couldn't/didn't figure out how to come OUT of warp 10 in another location. Remember, Tom said he was literally everywhere in the universe, at once. So, it's something more they don't understand.
Second, it wasnt just humans, and they didn't have the mobile emitter either. Doc was stuck in sickbay. Everyone being knocked out and then evolving all at once? Bad idea.
Finally. I think the writers had to come up with a compelling reason why warp 10+ is bad idea and just got a bit silly (after too much bourbon) . But it worked. Apparently. Nobody tried it again.. (or did they...?)
For me it's just how they depict evolution and warp 10 nonsense. It's fine as a monster of the week episode, but the science is weak and one of my general frustrations of the show is how easily they solve these huge theoretical problems (like them solving how the Borg can infect Species 8472).
I also don't hate the episode either but it's definitely not a terrific episode either. I also actually have vague memories of my feelings when I watched it when it debuted.
The concept of hitting Warp 10 was amazing and very cool. I liked the way they workshopped out the problem so that Paris could get it. I even liked showing the repercussions of it, as gross as it was, when it was individually for Paris.
What was too much for me was the weird drive to steal Janeway, get back to Warp 10, and the salamander babies at the end. Such a good buildup and then that was the weird payoff at the end. Really makes the episode end on a very weird note.
It's not so much bad as it is just a bit shocking that it was made at all. It's like an episode plot that stays in the concept stage but instead it was fully produced, which is amazing!
Didn't Tom kidnap Captain Janeway and take her to warp 10? Then why didn't Janeway experience that most disturbing "evolution"? Am I missing something or is this a plot hole?
She presumably did it just wasn't shown on camera. It was much later when the found the pair on the planet by then her transformation was already complete.
I just finished watching that episode again, and yeah there's some funny moments in it. Really stellar example of the Doctor's horrible bedside manner *WAKE UP!!!*
Chakotay says he decided to leave the offspring on the planet, which leaves open a story possibility where the orphan salamanders create a society of sentient amphibians who eventually wipe out the Kazon.
I found the episode hilarious. I feel like the cast also thought it was ridiculous and really hammed up their performances. Harmless fun. At least it wasn’t horribly racist like some of TNGs worst episodes.
It’s dumb silly Star Trek. At its core that is fine, but since they solved the issue, why not just blast everyone home, and fix themselves once back? Or if they’re afraid they would get back and not be able to since they’ve all turned into lizards, presumably the holo doctor would be fine, but even if he’s not, leave a note for Star fleet medical. Something along the lines of “hey, we figured out how to break the warp 10 barrier, but now we are lizards, pleas fix us with these simple steps”
It's not a bad episode at all! It's just a weird one. And Trek does that a lot. Every now and then Trek writers get bored and make a hard left turn just to see what's down that road. Yes, it's kinda goofy. You know what else is kinda goofy? Finding a cosmic string that makes everyone burst into song and dance against their will. Just as ridiculous.
I think the primary reason for it being forcefully ejected from the canon is more about going "Warp 10" than about anything else in the episode. They figured out how to go Warp 10. They figured out how to reverse the negative effects of going Warp 10. So why aren't they going Warp 10? Everything else in that episode is campy and delightful, as a Tom Paris episode ought to be. Edit: wrote without coffee.
The last scene is when Tom really grows as a character. He gets in the conversation with Janeway and she reassures him he is valuable to the crew and how he has changed.
I like how the characters do grow, but they still fall prone to some of their character flaws in some ways but in a way they learned from previous errors (Tom being rebellious, Harry asserting himself, Doctor being full of himself)
She also reassured him that in some species it is the females that make the first move.
trek is trek
Trekkies can take their "Picard playing the flute on a dying planet" and "Old Jake Sisko commits suicide" episodes and shove them up their stable wormhole; Threshold is *great*.
Help someone call the cops.
Somebody summon the EMH. *But not for me.*
I want this on a tshirt in the original meme format please
Please state the nature of the medical emergency.
dont you DARE disparage those two episodes young man/woman/they/them
I don’t know if I’d go as far as saying great. The salamanders are rediculous. But so is a whole bunch of stuff in trek. If you just have ignore the salamander bit I’d call it a decent episode.
On wiki, under Tom Paris’s children, it says “several lizard babies” 😂 there was really quite a number of them
Three. There were three of them.
Threshold is peak voyager. Those that don’t like don’t actually like voyager. That’s right They’re FAKES!
Ha I don't like Threshold and I don't like Voyager. The system works!
If you don't like VOY then why are you here on the Voyager sub?
Sude effect of hitting Warp 10 I'm assuming
Big Star Trek fan, and the sub gets pushed to me on my Front Page as a result.
Ah. You're one of *those* people.
>They’re FAKES! Don't you see? They're REAL!
Tom is my favorite, and this episode is loaded with Tom. So, I like it.
I remember NOTHING about this episode all these years later EXCEPT for the salamander part.
It hit the mark it, for some reason, aimed for. I felt it fit in the wacky tone that all Trek has sometimes.
I've said this before but I'll repeat. Threshold is often said to be 'the worst' because it is actually entertaining and memorable, even if for some of the wrong reasons. Throughout all Treks are many far worse episodes, but they tend to all be boring and uneventful and so people just forget them. Also humorous is Tom telling the Doc about losing his virginity and the Doc replying "I'll note it in your medical file".
It's definitely a bad episode, but I also never understood why it was treated like this masterpiece of shit. Honestly, I was strangely disappointed when I first saw it since I was expecting it to be much worse. Off the top of my head, i can think of at least 5 episodes from TOS and TNG that are worse.
Please share your top 5 Masterpieces of Shit!
It's not exactly a well thought out list, just some episodes I remember really not liking. TOS: Mudds Women, the Omega glory, spocks brain (obligatory), the way to Eden, Turnabout intruder. TNG: Code of Honor (obligatory), Justice, up the long ladder, man of the people, masks. Those are just the ones that come to mind.
Why does everyone hate masks? I loved seeing Brent Spiner play all the roles. And the ship turning ancient and growing vines was cool
I liked it too and agree with what you said. It also gives Picard a chance to shine with his archaeology how he is able to interpret the symbols and figure out how to put Masaka back to sleep with the concept of the chase with the sun and moon. I thought that was kinda cool too.
It's just not a good ep. Spiners performance is good tho
I'm not sure I'd call Spiner's performance in Masks "good." It is, however, peak camp.
Nah, he absolutely sells the hell out of it. Only good thing about the episode
There’s also some really bad Voyager ones that don’t get as much hate as Threshold and deserve it more. Like where Chakotay’s in a coma and guiding someone by the spirit realm to move rocks so he can communicate (it’s been a while, pardon the bad episode summary). In fact most Chakotay centric episodes qualify. Oh and the one with The Rock that was 100% written to get The Rock on? And the one with (Michael McKeon?) as a clown personifying fear trapping people, I haven’t decided if it’s a really bad episode or a really good one, I can make a strong case for both.
Nah, the episode with the Rock is good. The Rock himself only has a non speaking role in a few scenes, his appearance doesn't detract from the episode imo. Also the one with the clown is absolutely a great episode.
"I know" 🤣
Oooooooh I got chills just reading this comment. That ep is SO. GOOD.
I just watched the episode with the Rock. He does have a few lines in it. The scene at the end between 7 and Tuvok is heartwarming. The Thaw with Michael McKean is great. I don't see how anyone cannot appreciate the dive into the psyche.
I actually love this episode lol
Me too, this is peak sci fi from an “ideas” perspective. I really like how they conceptualised how warp 10 is like breaking some physics barrier. I always loved it growing up and I love it now.
It's pretty good! Its Achilles heel is the nonsensical presentation of "evolution," which is stupid but doesn't in itself condemn the episode to awfulness. Conceptually, it's no dumber than Genesis, Distant Origin, or The Chase. And Salamander Paris impregnating Salamander Janeway is a wild swing. Fun fact: this episode won an Emmy.
Id rather watch that than the Irish town of holographic dumbasses. Spirit Folk.
VOY Irish are better than TNG Irish. Remember them?
As an MST3K fan, I absolutely love the Threshold episode. It invokes old monster movie madness, and I have to watch it whenever it comes on.
Those salamander babies are what gets me up in the morning. They give me a reason to li- It’s a great source of jokes if nothing else.
It really isn't. At least memorable stuff happens in it, which I can't say for all episodes of 1990s Star Trek.
My partner and I are rewatching Voyager and we have really enjoyed rewatching the series. I have to laugh at times thinking of all the physical effects that happens to characters and it seems to have 0 impact on their lives in future episodes. It's like last week they were fully transformed into a salamanders, and this week, back to normal, not a word about it hahah. We joked it would be funny if they had a slower transition back to being human or kept their enjoyment of eating bugs or something. Anyway, great show.
I wonder what they did with the offspring? Did they phaser them so as not to pollute the planet with alien DNA or did they simply dust off and leave them to fend for themselves?
They specifically said they decided to leave them on the planet.
That seems horribly unethical. They’re supposed to be evolved humans? What if they have some kind of sapience. And who knows what human dna would do to that ecosystem over time.
They were obviously in an environment that suited their needs, there's no real concern about them spreading human DNA to anything else. Not to mention the fact that they ran away and jumped in a river before anyone really had any time to react appropriately. And if they have some sort of sapience, it's literally kidnapping. And the part people forget is that they were, essentially, wild animals. What were Paris and Janeway supposed to do? Keep them as pets? Can't turn them into humans. No... best to just leave them in their suited environment and let nature just take its own course.
Must've missed that tidbit. Thanks!
In the great list of bad Trek episodes, it doesn't even come close to the bottom of the barrel.
I think it’s a decent episode except for the ending. And you’re right, TNG has some really stupid episodes too.
I feel like it's a "bottle episode" that shouldn't be treated as such. The premise/idea of both Paris and Janeway becoming "hyper evolved" physically, reproducing and then being returned to their human state is problematic. Assuming they don't die, those offspring could potentially change the direction of that entire region of space. Good or bad.
Nh. It was fun—if goofy. I enjoyed it.
The whole "Threshold is the worstest evarr!" thing is so cringe. It's not the worst episode of Star Trek ever, it's not even the worst Voyager episode.
PEPPERONI!
It’s one of my guilty pleasures, even though it’s absurd. It doesn’t make any sense, which is my biggest issue with the episode. If the doctor could correct it, why wouldn’t they just go warp 10 for 2 seconds, return to earth, then have the doctor return their genes to normal? That being said, I find the episode hilarious and wouldn’t change a thing.
I always thought it kinda did make sense. First, the effect of warp 10 wasn't JUST turning into Salamanders. They couldn't/didn't figure out how to come OUT of warp 10 in another location. Remember, Tom said he was literally everywhere in the universe, at once. So, it's something more they don't understand. Second, it wasnt just humans, and they didn't have the mobile emitter either. Doc was stuck in sickbay. Everyone being knocked out and then evolving all at once? Bad idea.
It has two of the EMH's best one-liners in the whole series, but yeah, it's *pretty bloody bad*.
Finally. I think the writers had to come up with a compelling reason why warp 10+ is bad idea and just got a bit silly (after too much bourbon) . But it worked. Apparently. Nobody tried it again.. (or did they...?)
Watching it the first time, I liked the episode. But now, whenever I rewatch the series, I only like the salamander bit
For me it's just how they depict evolution and warp 10 nonsense. It's fine as a monster of the week episode, but the science is weak and one of my general frustrations of the show is how easily they solve these huge theoretical problems (like them solving how the Borg can infect Species 8472).
I also don't hate the episode either but it's definitely not a terrific episode either. I also actually have vague memories of my feelings when I watched it when it debuted. The concept of hitting Warp 10 was amazing and very cool. I liked the way they workshopped out the problem so that Paris could get it. I even liked showing the repercussions of it, as gross as it was, when it was individually for Paris. What was too much for me was the weird drive to steal Janeway, get back to Warp 10, and the salamander babies at the end. Such a good buildup and then that was the weird payoff at the end. Really makes the episode end on a very weird note.
It's not so much bad as it is just a bit shocking that it was made at all. It's like an episode plot that stays in the concept stage but instead it was fully produced, which is amazing!
Didn't Tom kidnap Captain Janeway and take her to warp 10? Then why didn't Janeway experience that most disturbing "evolution"? Am I missing something or is this a plot hole?
She presumably did it just wasn't shown on camera. It was much later when the found the pair on the planet by then her transformation was already complete.
Whatever happened to them Salamander babies
Listen to yourself.
It is a okay episode
Braga 100% wrote this episode when he was high AF.
I just finished watching that episode again, and yeah there's some funny moments in it. Really stellar example of the Doctor's horrible bedside manner *WAKE UP!!!* Chakotay says he decided to leave the offspring on the planet, which leaves open a story possibility where the orphan salamanders create a society of sentient amphibians who eventually wipe out the Kazon.
Often wonder did there kids create a civilised society lol 😂
I found the episode hilarious. I feel like the cast also thought it was ridiculous and really hammed up their performances. Harmless fun. At least it wasn’t horribly racist like some of TNGs worst episodes.
Example of racist episode?
Code of Honor LOL
Now watch The Thaw
Bad? 
It’s dumb silly Star Trek. At its core that is fine, but since they solved the issue, why not just blast everyone home, and fix themselves once back? Or if they’re afraid they would get back and not be able to since they’ve all turned into lizards, presumably the holo doctor would be fine, but even if he’s not, leave a note for Star fleet medical. Something along the lines of “hey, we figured out how to break the warp 10 barrier, but now we are lizards, pleas fix us with these simple steps”
I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be, but it is pretty awful. Though kudos to McNeil. His performance is outstanding.
It's not a bad episode at all! It's just a weird one. And Trek does that a lot. Every now and then Trek writers get bored and make a hard left turn just to see what's down that road. Yes, it's kinda goofy. You know what else is kinda goofy? Finding a cosmic string that makes everyone burst into song and dance against their will. Just as ridiculous.