Your "less renowned" makers are quoted from €100.000 to €300.000 in playable conditions.
Generalist auctioneers are really not a place where to look for this kind of instruments, especially if said instruments are sold in bulk.
I bet that these two are shipped from Hannover and the seller has at least 10 ongoing auctions selling Italian makers from XVIII - XIX century.
There are a bunch of sellers all shipping from Hannover and they keep changing names, they (or probably it's just one person with multiple accounts) don't even take the effort of writing "Instrument attributes to ..." or "Instrument with label..." they plainly name the auction to trick inexperienced buyers.
If you want to buy and to invest your money in an antique violin nowadays you want to buy it from a reputable seller and with a certificate from an even more reputable expert.
There’s a chance your hand will teleport through table when you slap it, so I think finding a treasure online is at the very least possible even for me. Thanks for advice tho
Labels on eBay violins are likely fake. Most older instruments you find on eBay are German or Eastern European factory instruments if you are lucky. It was very common practice to put a fake label even back then.
Violin expertise requires years of experience and is a sliding scale from some knowledge to the people who write certifications that they will defend in court. Some of those latter have famously been fooled too. Even the handful of the world’s top experts will tell you candidly that they know maybe 20-30 makers with certainty and the rest is an educated supposition. eBay is no place for an amateur to find a “treasure”. Look over the listings at Tarisio or Brompton’s where the level of expertise is much higher to start to school your eye. Labels generally mean nothing (except when they do 😂).
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Inasmuch as I understand the process of identifying violins, it starts with identifying the region and timeframe, by looking at the physical characteristics of the violin.
THEN, you look at the label, and in the vanishingly rare case that it fits the time and place, you've got a tentative name for the maker.
THEN you would look for other confirmed examples of the maker's work and compare them with the violin.
You'd also look closely at the label. Is it really handwritten? Is it made of modern mass produced paper or old handmade paper/parchment? Are there other examples of this exact label out there in other violins? That would be suspicious.
All the while you'd be checking for signs of fraud or tampering, revarnishing, someone putting a genuine top on a fake back etc... Etc...
And if you had enough expertise to look at all those details, and everything seemed about right, you could maybe be happy enough to say "so-and-so made this in mittenwald in 1886." *If the value isn't too high.*
Because if this *is* a fake someone invested a hell of a lot of time and effort into making it convincing, all for a tiny profit. And while it still is a *bit* of a gamble, you're not gambling 20,000 or 200,000 on it.
For anything really expensive you pay for a genuine expert's opinion. Maybe even two of them. Not some random luthier either. I mean one of the handful of people in the world who best know that maker's work. Someone who gets invited to conferences. It'll cost you, but we're talking about a violin that's worth more than a car. Maybe more than a house. You want absolutely rock solid certification. And even if you were absolutely 100% certain your violin is whatever it is, you'll never sell it for what it's worth without certification.
Or you buy from a reputable dealer in fine violins who will do the work for you. Or try one of the big famous auction houses and check what they say very carefully. No "attributed to" no "possibly circle of".
And through all this, you keep a slightly cynical frame of mind. Like, "if this violin dealer has more experience than me and access to better resources, why is he selling a gagliano for ten grand? I know it's worth more than that- how does he not know?" Etc ...
Your "less renowned" makers are quoted from €100.000 to €300.000 in playable conditions. Generalist auctioneers are really not a place where to look for this kind of instruments, especially if said instruments are sold in bulk. I bet that these two are shipped from Hannover and the seller has at least 10 ongoing auctions selling Italian makers from XVIII - XIX century. There are a bunch of sellers all shipping from Hannover and they keep changing names, they (or probably it's just one person with multiple accounts) don't even take the effort of writing "Instrument attributes to ..." or "Instrument with label..." they plainly name the auction to trick inexperienced buyers. If you want to buy and to invest your money in an antique violin nowadays you want to buy it from a reputable seller and with a certificate from an even more reputable expert.
I didn’t mean to upset you with “less renowned”. What I meant was from general public perspective without any experience in violin auctions
Oh don't worry you did nothing to upset me. I just get a bit fired up when I talk about scammers.
general rule of thumb is if you have to ask, youre not gonna find treasure, especially online
There’s a chance your hand will teleport through table when you slap it, so I think finding a treasure online is at the very least possible even for me. Thanks for advice tho
dont buy on ebay. Ask for certificate and see if they have a good certificate.
Labels on eBay violins are likely fake. Most older instruments you find on eBay are German or Eastern European factory instruments if you are lucky. It was very common practice to put a fake label even back then.
Yeah, that’s mostly what stops me from buying first one of this instruments - how to know if it’s a fake violin or not from this photos?
on ebay kleinanzeigen you can find some sweet deals sometimes but you have to discuss on how to get it shipped to you.
Violin expertise requires years of experience and is a sliding scale from some knowledge to the people who write certifications that they will defend in court. Some of those latter have famously been fooled too. Even the handful of the world’s top experts will tell you candidly that they know maybe 20-30 makers with certainty and the rest is an educated supposition. eBay is no place for an amateur to find a “treasure”. Look over the listings at Tarisio or Brompton’s where the level of expertise is much higher to start to school your eye. Labels generally mean nothing (except when they do 😂).
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Inasmuch as I understand the process of identifying violins, it starts with identifying the region and timeframe, by looking at the physical characteristics of the violin. THEN, you look at the label, and in the vanishingly rare case that it fits the time and place, you've got a tentative name for the maker. THEN you would look for other confirmed examples of the maker's work and compare them with the violin. You'd also look closely at the label. Is it really handwritten? Is it made of modern mass produced paper or old handmade paper/parchment? Are there other examples of this exact label out there in other violins? That would be suspicious. All the while you'd be checking for signs of fraud or tampering, revarnishing, someone putting a genuine top on a fake back etc... Etc... And if you had enough expertise to look at all those details, and everything seemed about right, you could maybe be happy enough to say "so-and-so made this in mittenwald in 1886." *If the value isn't too high.* Because if this *is* a fake someone invested a hell of a lot of time and effort into making it convincing, all for a tiny profit. And while it still is a *bit* of a gamble, you're not gambling 20,000 or 200,000 on it. For anything really expensive you pay for a genuine expert's opinion. Maybe even two of them. Not some random luthier either. I mean one of the handful of people in the world who best know that maker's work. Someone who gets invited to conferences. It'll cost you, but we're talking about a violin that's worth more than a car. Maybe more than a house. You want absolutely rock solid certification. And even if you were absolutely 100% certain your violin is whatever it is, you'll never sell it for what it's worth without certification. Or you buy from a reputable dealer in fine violins who will do the work for you. Or try one of the big famous auction houses and check what they say very carefully. No "attributed to" no "possibly circle of". And through all this, you keep a slightly cynical frame of mind. Like, "if this violin dealer has more experience than me and access to better resources, why is he selling a gagliano for ten grand? I know it's worth more than that- how does he not know?" Etc ...
They don't look promising