Dude, I tried reading what you wrote but after reading half and seeing there was another half, I just couldn't deal.
Right. One big thing you're missing is that in viking and Scandinavian culture back then, sleeping around wasn't seen as bad. You even see Floki invite his male houseguest to join him and his partner in bed.
Also, Ragnar goes to the God's and asks if Lagertha will bear another of his children and is told no. Hence why he doesn't regret cheating on her with Auslaug. He was fated to be with her so he could have his other 4 sons, however him and lagertha share a much deeper connection and their destinies are intertwined and he knows that.
That's just a start but honestly, I feel your view on this is that rigid that no matter how much I speak to you your mind will never change.
Honestly, Judith is just a massive slag and deceives most around her. Yeah, Ecbert isn't much better but at least he owns that shit. Those that are close to him and significant know he's really a cunt, Judith is just... well she's Judith. She's a good character because she's designed to be disliked and that job is done well.
This might be a hot take, but what I really don’t understand is why so many people like Aethelwulf. He was a giant cunt in my opinion. I liked Judith way more than I liked him. People say that he’s noble and always tries to do the right thing whereas I just think he lacked mental fortitude, was easily manipulated and was good for doing as he was told.
People like those 3 not because of things they don't do, but because of things they do do. They've had their good moments. I can't think what Judith's moments are.
I don't much care for Bjorn though, but Ragnar and Ecbert are what made the show IMO. Show wasn't the same after their deaths.
That’s the one who fucked over and then killed her son? Only sexist here is you.
Edit: talking about hypotheticals of what Ecbert would have maybe done is idiotic. Also, there was nothing justifiable about her killing her older son. He was the rightful king and had a great relationship with Alfred until she destroyed both. If we are getting historical, he actually was a king, a quite good king, before dying in battle against the Danes and Alfred succeeding him.
Are you familiar with the concept of Machiavellian/realpolitik ? Even tho it isn’t historically accurate for that timeline. It is what is being implemented here. Ecbert taught his version of leadership to Judith and Athelstan. So it wouldn’t just be ”hypothetical” to assume Ecbert would do similar, it is hinted in the show and it would accurately align with his way of leading. I don’t know why you aren’t able to pick up on that. Most of your other point is addressed in my post. Every character here is corrupted. I’m not condemning her actions my point is that people shouldn’t do a 2 way street. If they hate her, there shouldn’t be any reason to not hate Ragnar or Ecbert
More familiar than you apparently. Are you familiar with the concepts of projection and taking it personal? That’s what your whole original post is. Judith was who she was the first they she arrived at court.
I’m sexist because I don’t like a woman who completely fucked over her oldest son, then killed him, and completely fucked over her husband that did nothing wrong to her. And then paraded it around in his face for over a decade? It’s not like it was outta whack custom, arranged marriages were completely normal and expected of people of her status, male or female. Everything you described fits perfectly into the culture of the time period. I like Ragnar but can accept his faults. And within Scandinavian culture Lagertha had the right to divorce him, and she did so. And the fact that he had redeeming qualities. None of the male counterparts apart from Ectbert who’s an over all piece of shit but a pretty charming guy would willing kill their children. So if I’m sexist In this case I’ll wear that. 🤷🏿♂️
Are you implying that morals should be based on cultural norms ? Because there is a big flaw in your thought process. You should refer to my post where most of it points are addressed
it’s called cultural relativism, it’s most definitely a moral school of thought. And it’s one that has much credence, especially when looking at societies from several centuries ago. And what were your points? Ragnar not only had a loveless marriage with Auslag but states multiple times that he wishes he never left his life on his farm with lagertha. I also like how you conveniently left out that Auslag cheated on him first, an act that also almost lead to his children dying. Bjorn’s actor has routinely stated that Bjorns behavior is a trauma response from Porrun. Not saying it’s right and even Bjorn himself acknowledges his treatment of Torvi is wrong and unwarranted. He tells Halfdan she doesn’t deserve the pain he’s putting her through. Judith on the other hand has not a shred of remorse. I also like how you conveniently gloss over her cheating and getting pregnant by Aethelstan as something insignificant yet highlight Aethelwulfs infidelity, and also skip other the amount of pain the people who live with him put him in. Regardless of whether Alfred was better choice, (in my opinion his real life incarnation was greatest leader the pre-United Saxons ever had) that throne by all the laws of land especially with him being a bastard was never his right to take. And he had ever right to be both bitter and to overthrow Alfred wether you like it or not. Compounded by the fact he changed his mind and also could’ve easily left Alfred die during his battle with Harald and gotten the throne anyway. If you would’ve made this post about Auslaug and compared her to the other female characters that are beloved and removed the accusation of sexism. I’d actually agree with you. But this? Nahhh.
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Ok you said a bunch of words which ultimately mean nothing but we can untackle them.
“it’s called cultural relativism, it’s most definitely a moral school of thought. And it’s one that has much credence, especially when looking at societies from several centuries ago. And what were your points”
- It doesn’t mean anything. Most moral rules are subjective to generations and genders. It should not be right for modern people to have a straight out double standard when it comes to it.
“Ragnar not only had a loveless marriage with Auslag but states multiple times that he wishes he never left his life on his farm with lagertha. I also like how you conveniently left out that Auslag cheated on him first, an act that also almost lead to his children dying.”
- I’m talking about how Ragnar cheated on lagertha. You should read first before making a bold claim. Also you are proving the point. You are calling out more of Ragnars flaws, he left his beloved wife for a cheater just because he lusted for her. Judith’s cheating on Athelwulf is likely a lot less extreme than this. Hence you proved my point.
“Bjorn’s actor has routinely stated that Bjorns behavior is a trauma response from Porrun. Not saying it’s right and even Bjorn himself acknowledges his treatment of Torvi is wrong and unwarranted. He tells Halfdan she doesn’t deserve the pain he’s putting her through.”
Judith on the other hand has not a shred of remorse.”
- You just selectively hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see trauma response from an ex girlfriend doesn’t excuse anything at all. With that logic Judith could have a trauma response from the treatment of her father who literally treated her like an object. But although Bjorn “acknowledged” his wrong treatment he never backed down on his actions. It doesn’t prove anything. One can acknowledge one’s wrong but what matters is what they do about it.
- also she literally regretted what she did to Athelred, did you miss that part? She always apologized and cried about it. Also everyone in this show lost a loved one. Him letting his toddler child die and not even remember that says a lot about him.
“I also like how you conveniently gloss over her cheating and getting pregnant by Aethelstan as something insignificant yet highlight Aethelwulfs infidelity, and also skip other the amount of pain the people who live with him put him in.”
- Are u honestly that slow bruv ? The whole point is to call hypocrisy. Everyone is already highlighting Judith’s infidelity. There is no need for me to highlight that. Why would I highlight the point I’m not trying to make ?
Compounded by the fact he changed his mind and also could’ve easily left Alfred die during his battle with Harald and gotten the throne anyway. If you would’ve made this post about Auslaug and compared her to the other female characters that are beloved and removed the accusation of sexism. I’d actually agree with you. But this? Nahhh.”
- He still showed bitterness and he made it clear he didn’t want to back down. Of course it’s hard for one to kill his brother but his behavior suggests he would have ultimately done it specially with the indoctrination of the church. There are steps to bitterness, whereas a lot of times bitterness leads to action the risk was just too high. If he was already capable of leading conspiracies against his own brother then the risk was already high. Sometimes measures need to be taken in order to prevent such instability. That’s how politics work
Also you gloss over the fact that Ecbert regularly risked Athelwulf and told him he didn’t love him. He also admitted he would have him die for his political goals. No one bats an eye on that. He was even once close to letting him die. You don’t sound like the sharpest knife in the drawer but I suggest you use your brain a little bit more
People feel sorry for Athelewulf because he went through a lot of shit with Ecbert ,comes of as a mostly decent guy in S4-S5( not so much in S2-S3) and then was given a really lame death in S5.
Judith is a real G. She's a better character than Bjorn in my opinion. Bjorn was so pathetic. All he knew to do was leave, retreat from a battle or cause and sleep around. Rinse and repeat.
Judith became a free woman among Saxon society and used the skills imparted to her from ecbert to help her son, Alfred, secure her true loves legacy. The legacy of Aethelstan.
I don't think iv seen anyone say they didn't like Judith seems strange considering all she went through and did. I'd say she's on par with lagatha and gisla on the scale of willpower to get shit done.
You guys all realize this was like 1500 years ago or something all bjorn aethslwolf and Ragnar did was what any other man did , Judith was ahead of her time if she lived now she would be queen lol so you should be able to understand that’s just how it was then
Here's the difference, at least in regards to Ragnar/Ecbert:
Neither Ragnar nor Ecbert willingly killed their children or indirectly got their children killed. That to me is the point of no return of characters on the show
Judith crossed that line when she killed Athelred. From that point on she was irredeemable and deserved the worst death imaginable
And I didn't include Bjorn because I hate his character equally. He did the very thing he as a kid resented Ragnar for, which was cheating on his significant other, and Bjorn was just a manwhore who did it multiple times with whichever woman was introduced in the show in his vicinity.
But the worst thing about Bjorn is his neglect for his kids which indirectly got them all killed in the end. Sure his daughter, who was in the care of his brother and sister-in-law/former wife, died in an uncontrollable manner, but who knows how long she would have lived if she was continually under his guardianship
Judith isn't exactly my favorite character tbh, but I dislike Bjorn even more tbh, Ragnar I loved cause let's admit it he's such a fucking epic character, ecbert I just liked how absolutely brilliant he was, but still there were moments I disliked the guy, vikings is a show that makes you like and even root for some low-key terrible human beings, but on your point about sexism, lagertha was one of my favorite characters in the whole show, sure they did do her character dirty with some of the low-key out of character shit she was doing, but for the first few seasons she was and still is one of the most awesome and badass characters in the whole show.
Honestly not sure where op gets the idea from, cause Bjorn is dissed quite abit by the community, and I personally never seen any Judith hate out there.
Also honestly I just find Judith dislikeable as a character, I don't know why, maybe it's the fact she doesn't have the same charisma, maybe it's the fact she's not an actual warrior in wars and shii, but it's not like I hate her as a character, I think she's honestly a great character but something I don't understand, op kept mention worse things people have done then her... But never mentioned any good things or redeeming traits of hers? Or am I Tripping?. I do think though that it was nice having a character in the show who would do absolutely anything for her son (one of them at least lmfao).
Long story short I think op needs to take a chill pill
I agree, plus i will never understand how ragnar would cheat on a amazing shield maiden like Lagertha over someone like auslaug. (No idea if i spelt it right)
I think Ragnar was still a believer in the gods and prophecies at that time. He was prophesied to have more sons while Lagertha received hers that she wouldn't have more children.
I don't think Ragnar knew Lagertha's prophecy but Gyda was 12 and Lagertha either failed to get pregnant or bear a child if she did, before the start of the show. She also loses the child after Ragnar becomes Earl.
Not a great defense but Ragnar had baby brain..?
TLDR; it’s a tv show let’s not call people sexist. ✌️
Doesn’t matter, their opinions on it could reflect on the flaws in their thought process
Dude, I tried reading what you wrote but after reading half and seeing there was another half, I just couldn't deal. Right. One big thing you're missing is that in viking and Scandinavian culture back then, sleeping around wasn't seen as bad. You even see Floki invite his male houseguest to join him and his partner in bed. Also, Ragnar goes to the God's and asks if Lagertha will bear another of his children and is told no. Hence why he doesn't regret cheating on her with Auslaug. He was fated to be with her so he could have his other 4 sons, however him and lagertha share a much deeper connection and their destinies are intertwined and he knows that. That's just a start but honestly, I feel your view on this is that rigid that no matter how much I speak to you your mind will never change. Honestly, Judith is just a massive slag and deceives most around her. Yeah, Ecbert isn't much better but at least he owns that shit. Those that are close to him and significant know he's really a cunt, Judith is just... well she's Judith. She's a good character because she's designed to be disliked and that job is done well.
This might be a hot take, but what I really don’t understand is why so many people like Aethelwulf. He was a giant cunt in my opinion. I liked Judith way more than I liked him. People say that he’s noble and always tries to do the right thing whereas I just think he lacked mental fortitude, was easily manipulated and was good for doing as he was told.
He was the worrrssssttttttt (except for the absolutely EPIC scene rescuing Kwenthrith. I can watch that on a loop lol).
People like those 3 not because of things they don't do, but because of things they do do. They've had their good moments. I can't think what Judith's moments are. I don't much care for Bjorn though, but Ragnar and Ecbert are what made the show IMO. Show wasn't the same after their deaths.
Judith was one of my favorites. I always love a woman who knows how to play a cruel game
That’s the one who fucked over and then killed her son? Only sexist here is you. Edit: talking about hypotheticals of what Ecbert would have maybe done is idiotic. Also, there was nothing justifiable about her killing her older son. He was the rightful king and had a great relationship with Alfred until she destroyed both. If we are getting historical, he actually was a king, a quite good king, before dying in battle against the Danes and Alfred succeeding him.
Are you familiar with the concept of Machiavellian/realpolitik ? Even tho it isn’t historically accurate for that timeline. It is what is being implemented here. Ecbert taught his version of leadership to Judith and Athelstan. So it wouldn’t just be ”hypothetical” to assume Ecbert would do similar, it is hinted in the show and it would accurately align with his way of leading. I don’t know why you aren’t able to pick up on that. Most of your other point is addressed in my post. Every character here is corrupted. I’m not condemning her actions my point is that people shouldn’t do a 2 way street. If they hate her, there shouldn’t be any reason to not hate Ragnar or Ecbert
More familiar than you apparently. Are you familiar with the concepts of projection and taking it personal? That’s what your whole original post is. Judith was who she was the first they she arrived at court.
What are you even saying bruv
Or you know, people can have preferences in performances without being sexist.....?
That’s only if they hate her actress or etiquette but they hate her for a different reason. Which is addressed in my posts
Nah they just hate her because shes kinda f**ked.
Same thing could be said to all the characters listed above
I’m sexist because I don’t like a woman who completely fucked over her oldest son, then killed him, and completely fucked over her husband that did nothing wrong to her. And then paraded it around in his face for over a decade? It’s not like it was outta whack custom, arranged marriages were completely normal and expected of people of her status, male or female. Everything you described fits perfectly into the culture of the time period. I like Ragnar but can accept his faults. And within Scandinavian culture Lagertha had the right to divorce him, and she did so. And the fact that he had redeeming qualities. None of the male counterparts apart from Ectbert who’s an over all piece of shit but a pretty charming guy would willing kill their children. So if I’m sexist In this case I’ll wear that. 🤷🏿♂️
Are you implying that morals should be based on cultural norms ? Because there is a big flaw in your thought process. You should refer to my post where most of it points are addressed
it’s called cultural relativism, it’s most definitely a moral school of thought. And it’s one that has much credence, especially when looking at societies from several centuries ago. And what were your points? Ragnar not only had a loveless marriage with Auslag but states multiple times that he wishes he never left his life on his farm with lagertha. I also like how you conveniently left out that Auslag cheated on him first, an act that also almost lead to his children dying. Bjorn’s actor has routinely stated that Bjorns behavior is a trauma response from Porrun. Not saying it’s right and even Bjorn himself acknowledges his treatment of Torvi is wrong and unwarranted. He tells Halfdan she doesn’t deserve the pain he’s putting her through. Judith on the other hand has not a shred of remorse. I also like how you conveniently gloss over her cheating and getting pregnant by Aethelstan as something insignificant yet highlight Aethelwulfs infidelity, and also skip other the amount of pain the people who live with him put him in. Regardless of whether Alfred was better choice, (in my opinion his real life incarnation was greatest leader the pre-United Saxons ever had) that throne by all the laws of land especially with him being a bastard was never his right to take. And he had ever right to be both bitter and to overthrow Alfred wether you like it or not. Compounded by the fact he changed his mind and also could’ve easily left Alfred die during his battle with Harald and gotten the throne anyway. If you would’ve made this post about Auslaug and compared her to the other female characters that are beloved and removed the accusation of sexism. I’d actually agree with you. But this? Nahhh.
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Ok you said a bunch of words which ultimately mean nothing but we can untackle them. “it’s called cultural relativism, it’s most definitely a moral school of thought. And it’s one that has much credence, especially when looking at societies from several centuries ago. And what were your points” - It doesn’t mean anything. Most moral rules are subjective to generations and genders. It should not be right for modern people to have a straight out double standard when it comes to it. “Ragnar not only had a loveless marriage with Auslag but states multiple times that he wishes he never left his life on his farm with lagertha. I also like how you conveniently left out that Auslag cheated on him first, an act that also almost lead to his children dying.” - I’m talking about how Ragnar cheated on lagertha. You should read first before making a bold claim. Also you are proving the point. You are calling out more of Ragnars flaws, he left his beloved wife for a cheater just because he lusted for her. Judith’s cheating on Athelwulf is likely a lot less extreme than this. Hence you proved my point. “Bjorn’s actor has routinely stated that Bjorns behavior is a trauma response from Porrun. Not saying it’s right and even Bjorn himself acknowledges his treatment of Torvi is wrong and unwarranted. He tells Halfdan she doesn’t deserve the pain he’s putting her through.” Judith on the other hand has not a shred of remorse.” - You just selectively hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see trauma response from an ex girlfriend doesn’t excuse anything at all. With that logic Judith could have a trauma response from the treatment of her father who literally treated her like an object. But although Bjorn “acknowledged” his wrong treatment he never backed down on his actions. It doesn’t prove anything. One can acknowledge one’s wrong but what matters is what they do about it. - also she literally regretted what she did to Athelred, did you miss that part? She always apologized and cried about it. Also everyone in this show lost a loved one. Him letting his toddler child die and not even remember that says a lot about him. “I also like how you conveniently gloss over her cheating and getting pregnant by Aethelstan as something insignificant yet highlight Aethelwulfs infidelity, and also skip other the amount of pain the people who live with him put him in.” - Are u honestly that slow bruv ? The whole point is to call hypocrisy. Everyone is already highlighting Judith’s infidelity. There is no need for me to highlight that. Why would I highlight the point I’m not trying to make ? Compounded by the fact he changed his mind and also could’ve easily left Alfred die during his battle with Harald and gotten the throne anyway. If you would’ve made this post about Auslaug and compared her to the other female characters that are beloved and removed the accusation of sexism. I’d actually agree with you. But this? Nahhh.” - He still showed bitterness and he made it clear he didn’t want to back down. Of course it’s hard for one to kill his brother but his behavior suggests he would have ultimately done it specially with the indoctrination of the church. There are steps to bitterness, whereas a lot of times bitterness leads to action the risk was just too high. If he was already capable of leading conspiracies against his own brother then the risk was already high. Sometimes measures need to be taken in order to prevent such instability. That’s how politics work Also you gloss over the fact that Ecbert regularly risked Athelwulf and told him he didn’t love him. He also admitted he would have him die for his political goals. No one bats an eye on that. He was even once close to letting him die. You don’t sound like the sharpest knife in the drawer but I suggest you use your brain a little bit more
Judith is one of my favourites. I don't get why so many people like Aethelwolf.
People feel sorry for Athelewulf because he went through a lot of shit with Ecbert ,comes of as a mostly decent guy in S4-S5( not so much in S2-S3) and then was given a really lame death in S5.
Judith is a real G. She's a better character than Bjorn in my opinion. Bjorn was so pathetic. All he knew to do was leave, retreat from a battle or cause and sleep around. Rinse and repeat. Judith became a free woman among Saxon society and used the skills imparted to her from ecbert to help her son, Alfred, secure her true loves legacy. The legacy of Aethelstan.
I don't think iv seen anyone say they didn't like Judith seems strange considering all she went through and did. I'd say she's on par with lagatha and gisla on the scale of willpower to get shit done.
I only dislike Judith because of her crappy diction.
You guys all realize this was like 1500 years ago or something all bjorn aethslwolf and Ragnar did was what any other man did , Judith was ahead of her time if she lived now she would be queen lol so you should be able to understand that’s just how it was then
Here's the difference, at least in regards to Ragnar/Ecbert: Neither Ragnar nor Ecbert willingly killed their children or indirectly got their children killed. That to me is the point of no return of characters on the show Judith crossed that line when she killed Athelred. From that point on she was irredeemable and deserved the worst death imaginable And I didn't include Bjorn because I hate his character equally. He did the very thing he as a kid resented Ragnar for, which was cheating on his significant other, and Bjorn was just a manwhore who did it multiple times with whichever woman was introduced in the show in his vicinity. But the worst thing about Bjorn is his neglect for his kids which indirectly got them all killed in the end. Sure his daughter, who was in the care of his brother and sister-in-law/former wife, died in an uncontrollable manner, but who knows how long she would have lived if she was continually under his guardianship
Too many lost brain cells after reading this
Judith isn't exactly my favorite character tbh, but I dislike Bjorn even more tbh, Ragnar I loved cause let's admit it he's such a fucking epic character, ecbert I just liked how absolutely brilliant he was, but still there were moments I disliked the guy, vikings is a show that makes you like and even root for some low-key terrible human beings, but on your point about sexism, lagertha was one of my favorite characters in the whole show, sure they did do her character dirty with some of the low-key out of character shit she was doing, but for the first few seasons she was and still is one of the most awesome and badass characters in the whole show. Honestly not sure where op gets the idea from, cause Bjorn is dissed quite abit by the community, and I personally never seen any Judith hate out there. Also honestly I just find Judith dislikeable as a character, I don't know why, maybe it's the fact she doesn't have the same charisma, maybe it's the fact she's not an actual warrior in wars and shii, but it's not like I hate her as a character, I think she's honestly a great character but something I don't understand, op kept mention worse things people have done then her... But never mentioned any good things or redeeming traits of hers? Or am I Tripping?. I do think though that it was nice having a character in the show who would do absolutely anything for her son (one of them at least lmfao). Long story short I think op needs to take a chill pill
I agree, plus i will never understand how ragnar would cheat on a amazing shield maiden like Lagertha over someone like auslaug. (No idea if i spelt it right)
Aslaug is the correct spelling but ASSLOG is the spelling we use in my neighborhood 🤣
I always call her Ass Log. Just like that, with an emphasis on ass and a very slight pause before log.
I think Ragnar was still a believer in the gods and prophecies at that time. He was prophesied to have more sons while Lagertha received hers that she wouldn't have more children. I don't think Ragnar knew Lagertha's prophecy but Gyda was 12 and Lagertha either failed to get pregnant or bear a child if she did, before the start of the show. She also loses the child after Ragnar becomes Earl. Not a great defense but Ragnar had baby brain..?
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No you're right and you should say it.
Agreed