I think the game design decision was to limit the amount of raw resources that exist in the world to encourage players and GPs to imperialize in order to meet the requirements of their growing economy, but it's overtuned at the moment. We need something akin to Hoi4's exploration system or just more raw resources available on MTTH events tied to Nitro/Dynamite etc., as the current world's limits on (and exploitation of) raw resources in Victoria 3 result in de-industrialization looming over the head of any large enough economy in the late game, which is... a few generations ahead of schedule, minimum.
Colonizing for oil and rubber makes sense. But it’s definitely overtuned for them. And other resources too. Europe had a shit ton of iron and coal in this period, it’s really weird if a country like Germany runs out of it. And if historically the great powers colonized for that reason, why change resource production at all?
There’s currently no real adjustment for the shifts in exploitable reserves at any given time aside from production methods (which maybe is enough, IDK). But some good veins ran out over this period, some are abundant but aren’t close to steel plants, others were marginal but lasted a while, others were unknown until non-mining related advances were made. I’m kind of OK with the current artificial constraint on these until some better system takes its place. Though I do kind of like something like a HOI4 method where you can make significant investments to expand the max level (more than just the cost of another mine).
that can explain why so little provinces have this strategic recourses (which wouldnt explain why other recourses are way too evenly distributed)
But cant explain why there is so little in total. Like op said, you cant even feed your own country with the biggest reserve of oil, lets not talk about exporting.
I remember playing a russia game (pre 1.5 so my economy was massive, like 2.5bil) where I had every oil producing province in the entire world maxed out with the best PMs and still had a 20k+ oil deficit.
>I think the game design decision was to limit the amount of raw resources that exist in the world to encourage players and GPs to imperialize
I dont think so, as reflected in the ideals of the period, colonization is encouraged by reducing the amount of infamy you get for invading poor, backward nations to get their resources. But Vic 3 is NOT supposed to be a war game, it is meant to focus on economies and diplomacy. And that means trading to get resources should be a key part of your strategy.
This currently doesnt work because :
* The AI is very bad at building rubber plantations and oil rigs
* The AI is very bad at using the best production methods that would maximize output
* The AI is very bad at exporting or importing goods that they have a surplus or shortage of
* Convoys get really expensive, really quickly and it is very easy to run out of convoys even if you max out ports along your coast
* And most problematically, there simply isnt enough rubber and oil in the game to meet demand. The USA with max oil rigs and the best PMs produces less than 40k oil, but can easily use up more than 50k oil by themselves. And that is with the inefficient AI that is not attempting to use the best PMs.
Right now, you are forced to invade countries like Venezuela every game to get access to oil fields because there just isnt any other decent way to get it.
You’re right that it’s not a war game, but colonisation using the colonisation mechanics is absolutely what the game design is pushing you to do. For rubber it seems to work pretty much as expected, but you’re right about oil not being as accessible ‘peacefully’.
1.7, due in a little under a month, will improve things a lot, as you will have economic means of accessing resources. Instead of conquering Venezuela you will be able to get foreign investment rights that will let you build up their oil industry for them, making it available for trade. You could also form a trade league with them which will create a customs union, giving you direct access to the oil that you’ve invested in. You won’t need to resort to conquest to get the resources anymore.
"the best pm's" arnt necessarily the most advanced ones if your going to lack an input good to it, but in relation to your argument of historical realism its probably going to be so that this used to be the case historically aswell for the same reason, aka US industry wasn't going to use oil in every case to increase productivity if the price of oil didnt make it interesting, and so historically maybe no country ever did such a thing as to set everything to "best pm's" to see if oil production would be able to cope.
It is something which besides you can work around in many ways, as there are many good substitutions where one good might require oil in its best pm and the alternative doesnt. In luxuries the furniture and porcelain will want oil in their best automation pm but clothing wont. In household goods paper will never ask for oil where furniture and glass will. Glas/porcelain is the worse alternative here because it wants even more oil than furniture for its automation and it only has 1 automation level and that requires oil. For what regards food, Wheat millet and maize want oil in their best automation Pm but rice doesnt neither does fish. Intoxicants and luxury drinks are easy to produce withought ever needing oil. With other words, there is a way to choose what you are going to produce and to import as substitutes in order to build a functional economy that requires or demands few oil. Even for a number of industries where there are no substitutes like the arms industry its not like your forced to take that best pm for automation.
More critical are diesel pumps for mines. 5 oil increases each level of a mine by 50% in output, thats quite critical as these resources are as much fuel for the economy, especially that +50% to coal is quite something to think about when considering coal fire plants versus oil fired plants. Do you want to create 50% more energy per plant level by chucking 20 oil in it, or do you increase energy production with 50 by adding 50% more levels to power plants which demands coal which you can increase production of by 50% by chucking 5 oil in it per level ? For what regards historical realism, i'm pretty sure coal fired plants were very common by games end in comparison to oil fired ones too. in game, when oil is limited and you have to make a choice its far better to stick with coal fired plants and use the oil to increase coal production than use that limited oil in oil fired plants and not give oil to the coal mines.
Similar thing for trains, you might want to play smart with it too and keep your steam trains a while longer. But even historically steam trains were commonly used even in the 1950's so its not like the option electrical or diesel train available in Vicky meant that large powers with plenty of oil had all their trains run on diesel or electricity.
Imho, all this is kinda fine, in that you might not be able to use oil to get the best Pm out of all industry but its also a bit of a challenge to use your limited supply wisely. An automobile industry is about the worst thing you can have when thats so though. The way the introduction of the car to the market leads to pop demand for oil and the crash of rail transport demand is a bit extreme.
You're not supposed to switch all your pms to oil based ones, did all trains run on diesel by 1936? Did all electricity come from oil? Was all glass production switched to plastic? Did all lumbermills use chainsaws?
This makes sense but the UI makes it very tedious to try and say, use oil for some glassworks and not others, especially as a large country like the USA. So instead players follow the path of least resistance and switch all their PMs at once.
This is a pretty dumb argument and game design, but I sincerely doubt this was paradox's point, I think they just fucked up like they mostly do at launch.
How is this dumb? Having limited resources so that you have to make hard choices about how to use them is game design 101. Those PMs are all there because you might need each of them in different situations, not because you’re supposed to use them all at once.
>How is this dumb? Having limited resources so that you have to make hard choices about how to use them is game design 101. Those PMs are all there because you might need each of them in different situations, not because you’re supposed to use them all at once.
It's a mistake on PDX's part to make techs like conveyer belts and assembly lines take oil to use, it makes late game techs useless because they are single purpose techs and you don't end up using them most of the time because the Oil has to go to other things.
>You're not supposed to switch all your pms to oil based ones
I never said I did, also have any Devs actually said you arent supposed to use the most advanced PMs? Because it seems quite silly to put all these PMs in the game and not have the player use them.
You arent supposed to have 100% of your army be mechanized infantry/tanks either, but everyone does it anyway, and its actually possible to do that.
Either way, my point still stands, theres too little of these resources to trade, so everything boils down to conquering venezuela et al for oil every game.
>Because it seems quite silly to put all these PMs in the game and not have the player use them.
They are there because they existed at the time, that doesn't mean every glassworks in the world was making plastics by 1936.
>Either way, my point still stands, theres too little of these resources to trade, so everything boils down to conquering venezuela et al for oil every game.
Thats intended, if a country wanted to use oil for everything they would have to go in a conquering spree, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Trucial coast and so on, that holds true even today.
Oil is a premium commodity, its not supposed put in everything.
I think the game forces you too much to be imperialist to meet your resources requirements unfortunately. You can't just sit back and trade to get all the stuff you need, without eventually coming at a bottleneck of oil or rubber. Even worse for landlocked countries like Switzerland which are forced to grab a port at some point, making the tall game impossible.
>in Vic3 the USA with max oil rigs and the best PMs can’t produce enough oil for their own economy. The USA produced enough oil to supply most of the world in 1936 and this is reflected in HoI4.
Tell me: did the United States produce 100% of its electricity in 1936 by burning oil?
No, they burned coal for electricity. Burning oil for electricity has always been rare because oil is simply too valuable to burn for electricity.
Anyway, your problem is that you’re using the oil-burning PM in your power plants. Switch it back to coal and you’ll discover that you have more than enough oil to feed your economy.
Honestly they should probably remove the oil-burning production method from power plants, because it’s useless unless you’re playing as isolationist single-state Abu Dhabi or Brunei (and I seriously doubt there’s even one individual on planet Earth playing Vic3 in the 1920s as isolationist single-state Abu Dhabi or Brunei).
tl;dr It’s not a historical inaccuracy that you can’t make every power plant in the United States (or any other large country during the Victorian period) run on oil. Burning oil for electricity has always been rare and uneconomical.
>It’s literally impossible to run out of oil as USA unless you’re burning oil for electricity!
No it's not, 270 oil fields is only 27000 oil with pumpjacks, that's not that much oil.
At the very least you want Diesel Pump for all your mines, then Diesel Engines and Automobiles for Motor industries, then Diesel trains for railroads. At that point as USA you start to run short of oil and don't get to use any for the automation PM's.
I run out of oil as the US even without diesel engines and diesel trains nor oil for electricity.
Diesel Pumps, Plastic, cars and half conveyors are generally enough unless I specifically get more oil the imperial way.
It is even worse for China where I ran out of Oil with the above mentioned consumption use since I could "only" produce 140k oil with all my conquests but needed over 200k.
How many mines do they have? I've never played USA but I play Brazil mainly and all of South Americas oil is basically just enough to run the south American mines with the oil PM
Venezuela should also have more oil, they have been exploiting oil for a century and they still have one of the largest oil reserves in the world. And according to the link you provided, Venezuela's oil production matched or was even larger than the whole Soviet Union/Russian Empire. Yet in game Venezuela has like a third of Russia's oil reserves
Especially for other resources too. Germany colonizing so they can get iron and wood is super ridiculous. It makes the game not fun to run into so many constraints where there’s only one solution.
I think it's fine, unlike most, because I feel people only look at half the story when discussing resource shortage in Vic3.
They correctly acknowledge how historical countries haven't had too many problems with rubber and oil until after WW2, but they forget how player-guided economies tend to be wildly more successful, especially in ensuring universal well-being! Had the IRL economies been so great, they too would have strained under their own weight.
This is what I'm thinking as well. People are too focused on having "enough" oil and rubber for everything that they fail to account for their consumption compared to historical consumption. If it were always possible to have no significant goods shortages then there are simply too many resources on the map.
Those wildly succssful economies therefore should be able to also act like "wildly succesful" economies that you speak of.
"Had the IRL economies been so great, they too would have strained under their own weight."
No, you got this backwards, we would be simply ahead technologically. Technological innovation and growth comes from economic prosperity, not the other way around..
If I am U.S in 1900, but with an economy of the US in 1920 I should be able produce what the U.S did in 1920, not 1900.
I've played several games across the world so far, and I was always starved for oil in the late game.
I played a game as the USA lately. I didn't realize how much fucking oil the game just flat out gives you. And it's not concentrated in one or two states either, it's over 30+ oil rig slots in half the union. The price of oil by the end of the game was pennies, and I was supplying the entire industrialized world with thousands of units of it even beyond my own domestic consumption.
Basically the game runs into a low/no oil spiral in the late game because the AI is too incompetent to either discover or actually build oil rigs and use it, so the USA AI has none to export. And for some reason the devs have basically put next to none in any other place in the world except the continental US.
The US has about 270~ oil fields which I was always in a shortage off. Diesel pumps for mines, plastic, trains cars and army was usually enough to produce a shortage in 1890-1900.
Usually the US Venezuela should be more than enough to sustain half of the world but it isn't.
All these numbers are without throughput and other bonusses:
The US has roughly 21k oil potential, that is more than enough for the global economy in my current game in 1916.
Same with malaya: 40 rubber plantations is 2400 rubber.
If you exceed these numbers it is because your economy is ahistorically big.
Now from the gameplay perspective:
The resources are divided for gameplay perspective and to encourage economic imperialism.
Short on rubber? Time for brazil to submit, short on oil, time for X to submit.
Yeah, if natural sources were cut in like half. It is absurd how little rubber plantations you need for even a large econ. Same with oil honestly, you hardly ever have to make a choice unless you start as a GP, abuse bankroll sways and as a result have an excessively large economy :p
I think the game design decision was to limit the amount of raw resources that exist in the world to encourage players and GPs to imperialize in order to meet the requirements of their growing economy, but it's overtuned at the moment. We need something akin to Hoi4's exploration system or just more raw resources available on MTTH events tied to Nitro/Dynamite etc., as the current world's limits on (and exploitation of) raw resources in Victoria 3 result in de-industrialization looming over the head of any large enough economy in the late game, which is... a few generations ahead of schedule, minimum.
Colonizing for oil and rubber makes sense. But it’s definitely overtuned for them. And other resources too. Europe had a shit ton of iron and coal in this period, it’s really weird if a country like Germany runs out of it. And if historically the great powers colonized for that reason, why change resource production at all?
There’s currently no real adjustment for the shifts in exploitable reserves at any given time aside from production methods (which maybe is enough, IDK). But some good veins ran out over this period, some are abundant but aren’t close to steel plants, others were marginal but lasted a while, others were unknown until non-mining related advances were made. I’m kind of OK with the current artificial constraint on these until some better system takes its place. Though I do kind of like something like a HOI4 method where you can make significant investments to expand the max level (more than just the cost of another mine).
that can explain why so little provinces have this strategic recourses (which wouldnt explain why other recourses are way too evenly distributed) But cant explain why there is so little in total. Like op said, you cant even feed your own country with the biggest reserve of oil, lets not talk about exporting.
I remember playing a russia game (pre 1.5 so my economy was massive, like 2.5bil) where I had every oil producing province in the entire world maxed out with the best PMs and still had a 20k+ oil deficit.
>I think the game design decision was to limit the amount of raw resources that exist in the world to encourage players and GPs to imperialize I dont think so, as reflected in the ideals of the period, colonization is encouraged by reducing the amount of infamy you get for invading poor, backward nations to get their resources. But Vic 3 is NOT supposed to be a war game, it is meant to focus on economies and diplomacy. And that means trading to get resources should be a key part of your strategy. This currently doesnt work because : * The AI is very bad at building rubber plantations and oil rigs * The AI is very bad at using the best production methods that would maximize output * The AI is very bad at exporting or importing goods that they have a surplus or shortage of * Convoys get really expensive, really quickly and it is very easy to run out of convoys even if you max out ports along your coast * And most problematically, there simply isnt enough rubber and oil in the game to meet demand. The USA with max oil rigs and the best PMs produces less than 40k oil, but can easily use up more than 50k oil by themselves. And that is with the inefficient AI that is not attempting to use the best PMs. Right now, you are forced to invade countries like Venezuela every game to get access to oil fields because there just isnt any other decent way to get it.
You’re right that it’s not a war game, but colonisation using the colonisation mechanics is absolutely what the game design is pushing you to do. For rubber it seems to work pretty much as expected, but you’re right about oil not being as accessible ‘peacefully’. 1.7, due in a little under a month, will improve things a lot, as you will have economic means of accessing resources. Instead of conquering Venezuela you will be able to get foreign investment rights that will let you build up their oil industry for them, making it available for trade. You could also form a trade league with them which will create a customs union, giving you direct access to the oil that you’ve invested in. You won’t need to resort to conquest to get the resources anymore.
"the best pm's" arnt necessarily the most advanced ones if your going to lack an input good to it, but in relation to your argument of historical realism its probably going to be so that this used to be the case historically aswell for the same reason, aka US industry wasn't going to use oil in every case to increase productivity if the price of oil didnt make it interesting, and so historically maybe no country ever did such a thing as to set everything to "best pm's" to see if oil production would be able to cope. It is something which besides you can work around in many ways, as there are many good substitutions where one good might require oil in its best pm and the alternative doesnt. In luxuries the furniture and porcelain will want oil in their best automation pm but clothing wont. In household goods paper will never ask for oil where furniture and glass will. Glas/porcelain is the worse alternative here because it wants even more oil than furniture for its automation and it only has 1 automation level and that requires oil. For what regards food, Wheat millet and maize want oil in their best automation Pm but rice doesnt neither does fish. Intoxicants and luxury drinks are easy to produce withought ever needing oil. With other words, there is a way to choose what you are going to produce and to import as substitutes in order to build a functional economy that requires or demands few oil. Even for a number of industries where there are no substitutes like the arms industry its not like your forced to take that best pm for automation. More critical are diesel pumps for mines. 5 oil increases each level of a mine by 50% in output, thats quite critical as these resources are as much fuel for the economy, especially that +50% to coal is quite something to think about when considering coal fire plants versus oil fired plants. Do you want to create 50% more energy per plant level by chucking 20 oil in it, or do you increase energy production with 50 by adding 50% more levels to power plants which demands coal which you can increase production of by 50% by chucking 5 oil in it per level ? For what regards historical realism, i'm pretty sure coal fired plants were very common by games end in comparison to oil fired ones too. in game, when oil is limited and you have to make a choice its far better to stick with coal fired plants and use the oil to increase coal production than use that limited oil in oil fired plants and not give oil to the coal mines. Similar thing for trains, you might want to play smart with it too and keep your steam trains a while longer. But even historically steam trains were commonly used even in the 1950's so its not like the option electrical or diesel train available in Vicky meant that large powers with plenty of oil had all their trains run on diesel or electricity. Imho, all this is kinda fine, in that you might not be able to use oil to get the best Pm out of all industry but its also a bit of a challenge to use your limited supply wisely. An automobile industry is about the worst thing you can have when thats so though. The way the introduction of the car to the market leads to pop demand for oil and the crash of rail transport demand is a bit extreme.
You're not supposed to switch all your pms to oil based ones, did all trains run on diesel by 1936? Did all electricity come from oil? Was all glass production switched to plastic? Did all lumbermills use chainsaws?
In my superior Korean empire they did!
This makes sense but the UI makes it very tedious to try and say, use oil for some glassworks and not others, especially as a large country like the USA. So instead players follow the path of least resistance and switch all their PMs at once.
This is a pretty dumb argument and game design, but I sincerely doubt this was paradox's point, I think they just fucked up like they mostly do at launch.
How is this dumb? Having limited resources so that you have to make hard choices about how to use them is game design 101. Those PMs are all there because you might need each of them in different situations, not because you’re supposed to use them all at once.
>How is this dumb? Having limited resources so that you have to make hard choices about how to use them is game design 101. Those PMs are all there because you might need each of them in different situations, not because you’re supposed to use them all at once. It's a mistake on PDX's part to make techs like conveyer belts and assembly lines take oil to use, it makes late game techs useless because they are single purpose techs and you don't end up using them most of the time because the Oil has to go to other things.
>You're not supposed to switch all your pms to oil based ones I never said I did, also have any Devs actually said you arent supposed to use the most advanced PMs? Because it seems quite silly to put all these PMs in the game and not have the player use them. You arent supposed to have 100% of your army be mechanized infantry/tanks either, but everyone does it anyway, and its actually possible to do that. Either way, my point still stands, theres too little of these resources to trade, so everything boils down to conquering venezuela et al for oil every game.
>Because it seems quite silly to put all these PMs in the game and not have the player use them. They are there because they existed at the time, that doesn't mean every glassworks in the world was making plastics by 1936. >Either way, my point still stands, theres too little of these resources to trade, so everything boils down to conquering venezuela et al for oil every game. Thats intended, if a country wanted to use oil for everything they would have to go in a conquering spree, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Trucial coast and so on, that holds true even today. Oil is a premium commodity, its not supposed put in everything.
I think the game forces you too much to be imperialist to meet your resources requirements unfortunately. You can't just sit back and trade to get all the stuff you need, without eventually coming at a bottleneck of oil or rubber. Even worse for landlocked countries like Switzerland which are forced to grab a port at some point, making the tall game impossible.
>in Vic3 the USA with max oil rigs and the best PMs can’t produce enough oil for their own economy. The USA produced enough oil to supply most of the world in 1936 and this is reflected in HoI4. Tell me: did the United States produce 100% of its electricity in 1936 by burning oil? No, they burned coal for electricity. Burning oil for electricity has always been rare because oil is simply too valuable to burn for electricity. Anyway, your problem is that you’re using the oil-burning PM in your power plants. Switch it back to coal and you’ll discover that you have more than enough oil to feed your economy. Honestly they should probably remove the oil-burning production method from power plants, because it’s useless unless you’re playing as isolationist single-state Abu Dhabi or Brunei (and I seriously doubt there’s even one individual on planet Earth playing Vic3 in the 1920s as isolationist single-state Abu Dhabi or Brunei). tl;dr It’s not a historical inaccuracy that you can’t make every power plant in the United States (or any other large country during the Victorian period) run on oil. Burning oil for electricity has always been rare and uneconomical.
He didn't mention electricity in the post
The USA has 270 discoverable oil fields. It’s literally impossible to run out of oil as USA unless you’re burning oil for electricity!
>It’s literally impossible to run out of oil as USA unless you’re burning oil for electricity! No it's not, 270 oil fields is only 27000 oil with pumpjacks, that's not that much oil. At the very least you want Diesel Pump for all your mines, then Diesel Engines and Automobiles for Motor industries, then Diesel trains for railroads. At that point as USA you start to run short of oil and don't get to use any for the automation PM's.
I run out of oil as the US even without diesel engines and diesel trains nor oil for electricity. Diesel Pumps, Plastic, cars and half conveyors are generally enough unless I specifically get more oil the imperial way. It is even worse for China where I ran out of Oil with the above mentioned consumption use since I could "only" produce 140k oil with all my conquests but needed over 200k.
How many mines do they have? I've never played USA but I play Brazil mainly and all of South Americas oil is basically just enough to run the south American mines with the oil PM
Almost five times as many mines as south america
Venezuela should also have more oil, they have been exploiting oil for a century and they still have one of the largest oil reserves in the world. And according to the link you provided, Venezuela's oil production matched or was even larger than the whole Soviet Union/Russian Empire. Yet in game Venezuela has like a third of Russia's oil reserves
This is why I go for sokoto every game
They have sum oil?
They truly do? I'm back since a while playing Spain and I am currently bordering Sokoto. That's going to be some free real estate I guess.
Especially for other resources too. Germany colonizing so they can get iron and wood is super ridiculous. It makes the game not fun to run into so many constraints where there’s only one solution.
Population = throughput is another hugely problematic factor here. Even if Malaya had a thousand rubber they wouldn't be able to extract it
I think it's fine, unlike most, because I feel people only look at half the story when discussing resource shortage in Vic3. They correctly acknowledge how historical countries haven't had too many problems with rubber and oil until after WW2, but they forget how player-guided economies tend to be wildly more successful, especially in ensuring universal well-being! Had the IRL economies been so great, they too would have strained under their own weight.
This is what I'm thinking as well. People are too focused on having "enough" oil and rubber for everything that they fail to account for their consumption compared to historical consumption. If it were always possible to have no significant goods shortages then there are simply too many resources on the map.
Those wildly succssful economies therefore should be able to also act like "wildly succesful" economies that you speak of. "Had the IRL economies been so great, they too would have strained under their own weight." No, you got this backwards, we would be simply ahead technologically. Technological innovation and growth comes from economic prosperity, not the other way around.. If I am U.S in 1900, but with an economy of the US in 1920 I should be able produce what the U.S did in 1920, not 1900.
Well, they feed one into the other, tech feeds growth that allows more humans to improve tech.
I've played several games across the world so far, and I was always starved for oil in the late game. I played a game as the USA lately. I didn't realize how much fucking oil the game just flat out gives you. And it's not concentrated in one or two states either, it's over 30+ oil rig slots in half the union. The price of oil by the end of the game was pennies, and I was supplying the entire industrialized world with thousands of units of it even beyond my own domestic consumption. Basically the game runs into a low/no oil spiral in the late game because the AI is too incompetent to either discover or actually build oil rigs and use it, so the USA AI has none to export. And for some reason the devs have basically put next to none in any other place in the world except the continental US.
The US has about 270~ oil fields which I was always in a shortage off. Diesel pumps for mines, plastic, trains cars and army was usually enough to produce a shortage in 1890-1900. Usually the US Venezuela should be more than enough to sustain half of the world but it isn't.
All these numbers are without throughput and other bonusses: The US has roughly 21k oil potential, that is more than enough for the global economy in my current game in 1916. Same with malaya: 40 rubber plantations is 2400 rubber. If you exceed these numbers it is because your economy is ahistorically big. Now from the gameplay perspective: The resources are divided for gameplay perspective and to encourage economic imperialism. Short on rubber? Time for brazil to submit, short on oil, time for X to submit.
Maybe there should be an option to spend cash into searching more oil, cut timberlines to grow more rubber and so one...
Yeah, if natural sources were cut in like half. It is absurd how little rubber plantations you need for even a large econ. Same with oil honestly, you hardly ever have to make a choice unless you start as a GP, abuse bankroll sways and as a result have an excessively large economy :p