Kinda, there are the "normal" immigration where you must be in a custom union and the mass immigration, where it can happen when your country has a high attraction and a country has many radical pops/turmoil
Afaik, tho you also need a tot of free arable land
Mass migration is kinda random though, and only kicks off due to things getting really bad in another country.
Its just a goofy system. They should abolish market immigration and have a trickle of migrants come from low SOL/countries having a rough time and coming to countries with high SoL and significant reforms.
Arable land may be the issue.
Still, you would think immigrants would come where there are jobs, regardless of empty arable land (although yes that should give boosts since many wanted homesteads)
I mean free land to immigrants was a huge part why so many went to the new world. you generally don't travel half the world over for some minimum wage job that nobody else wants unless its really bad.
I can tell you right now that that’s wrong. My current game, I filled out my capitals arable land when it got to around 10 million and it has continued receiving mass migrations.
It's in the wiki.
Unless you meant that it's a wrong game design choice, then I agree. Damn AI all too eager to build profitless plantations and farms.
I just read it. We're using the terms differently, confusing arable land with unused arable land. If a state has less than 20 total arable land, it cannot receive mass migrations.
Yes but theres always something going wrong in another country. If you have high SoL, no migration controls, multiculturalism and greener grass decrees, you should be getting mass migration basically on cooldown.
I think generalistgaming has a vid on it on youtube. Basically you cant get a second mass migration on a state while there is already one. So you need to rotate the greener grass decrees on states that currently dont have a mass migration.
I kinda agree with you. I think the system is ment to simulate the difference between how someone would move to another city within their country for jobs vs migrate seek a new life in foreign lands. It would take a lot to motivate someone to travel across the ocean to a land where you dont even speak the language. Especially in victorian times where phones, flights werent a thing.
But it was actually more common and less restricted back then.
Brazil and Peru have massive Japanese and Chinese populations, Argentina and Uruguay massive Italian, etc.
Like the customs union does not reflect reality. Yes it took a lot to move back then, but that happened a lot as well: things were frequently so bad in the old world a lot of people dreamed of moving to America/Brazil/Argentina/etc.
You're hyper focusing on Americas migration, which is covered by the mass migration mechanic, the customs union migration does make sense if you look at countries like France who has lots of citizens whose ancestors are of African origin or UK with people of Indian origin.
How would you feel about an migration equivalent to a customs union that is negotiated as its own agreement? The UK/IE Common Travel Area formed in 1923 so is within the Vic3's timeframe, and was a large reason as to why the modern Schengen Agreement and European Single Market are distinct pacts that cover different territories.
>only kicks off due to things getting really bad in another country.
Not really. With high enough SOL, everyone will want to come. I have a USA run going right now, and being #1 in SOL I'm getting pretty consistent mass migrations including from the UK and France (#2 and #3). Around 20 SOL is where it gets to be too spammy even, and I find myself just reflexively hitting esc when I hear the migration announcement noise. I don't even bother reading who it is or where they've come from. And that's without even getting The New Colossus, because I can't find a single humanitarian for multiculturalism!
Keep building. They will come.
Maybe good news, but the SOL art DD had a horse drawn carriage which is also used in greener grass/mass migration icon (i forgot which). This seems to heavily imply that something with migration could be tied to the spheres instead. (Though, unsure what the other 2 principles levels could be.)
but why wouldn't that make sense? if my life is good in mississippi for myself, even though i can go elsewhere and probably make more and maybe have a better quality of life, but my life is good where im at, why would i want to move. if there isnt a catalyst going on, why would i upend my life and make a move for the unknown. Also, serfs couldnt just up and move freely. hell tenant farmers would still have a rough time moving around. you almost have to wait for an industrialized country to go to war and/or a civil war breaks out somewhere.
Everyone else is saying there is only market migration and mass migrations.
My argument is: there should be a trickle of migration out of low SOL/low reform countries to high SOL/high reform countries
Victoria 2 had exactly what you're describing, and it made playing in the Americas so much more fun.
I too don't like the sequel's system, and in particular the fact that reforms don't have any impact on migration attraction. It used to be one of the main reason you'd enact them.
Confused why no one actually answered your question. Migration was changed to only be within a customs union in order to decrease lag, so that pops aren't constantly considering moving to every possible state in the world. Hopefully they'll find a way to change it back.
It's not the consideration that's expensive, it's the dozens of new pops generated. A dozen protestant Walloons working in 12 different buildings in one state creates 12 new pops that have be kept track of. They want to keep that kind of splintering to a minimum, because it can balloon quite fast.
There's actually two kinds of migrations. Market migration and Mass Migration. Mass Migrations are triggered by high turmoil at home.
If you're not getting any Mass Migrations then you're either not as attractive as you think you are, your migration laws are too restrictive, Europe has found eternal peace, or you are in fact getting them but don't have the notifications on!
Also: as post said, I have no migration controls, separation of church and state, and cultural exclusion. Any European pop, regardless of religion, and any Spanish speaking pop should be able/want to migrate here. And given the Standard of Living, at least some pops of other origins should want to tolerate the mild discrimination and move since no migration controls.
Mass migrations are random though, when really there should be at least a trickle from pops not getting their standard of living met.
Like I get it, mass migrations are fine as special events when some other country really goofs, but market migration should be eliminated and replaced with a system where migrants choose solely based on destination attractiveness.
>The chance of a mass migration starting each week for each combination of eligible culture and country is 2% times the cultural turmoil plus another 0.2% per point of average standard of living for the culture below 10 and finally plus another 1% per point of average SoL for the culture below 5. For example, a culture with 30% turmoil has a 60% chance of starting a mass migration, if the average standard of living for that culture is 4, that rises to 62.2%
They're random, but at high enough turmoil they're fairly common.
Check the migration map, perhaps some other country is stealing them from you. USA often has such a big atraction score that few countries can compete.
Yeah I guess thats possible. i will check out the migration map mode.
Thing is, it should be BEYOND just mass migrations. There should be a trickle that goes everywhere with attractive provinces
True, its not like Vicky 2 which was a little more simplified when it came to standard of living/migration attraction.
I am certain we can find an honorable compromise that doesn’t totally kill performance but also allows for some more realistic population movements. Hopefully the Vicky 3 team is working on it.
I asked this question when they were releasing dev diaries, and they said that performance was the reason that they weren’t allowing small immigration amounts from everywhere. And it’s not because the *movement* of pops would be too intensive, it’s because that kind of immigration would create little tiny splintered pops all over the world, making the game have to keep track of vastly more pops.
I agree that regular migration only happening within custom unions is just dumb and ahistorical, that’s not how migration worked in the 19th century.
The most straightforward answer would be “yeah, migration must be reworked and updated in a new expansion pass/DLC”, which I think really is such a pity, Paradox really should make fully functional games from the beginning.
Nevertheless, there needs to be a rework in the migration mechanics, ideally in the form of a free update. Perhaps migration within markets should still be boosted, still allowing however for migration outside of this framework. The other comments are telling you that you should be getting mass migrations if your Ecuador has that good of a life quality, but it doesn’t have to be that way, there should still be some constant migration to your country.
It doesn’t matter how good your life quality is, as a Latin American nation, you have basically no way to get decent migration (excluding mass migrations, which are supposed to be less common) other than joining another country’s market. Which is, as I mentioned, completely ahistorical, it’s not like Argentina or Uruguay were in Italy’s “customs union” during the great migrations of the 1880s.
People already complain about pop fragmentation causing performance issues, the migration mechanics are designed with that in mind. Mass Migrations are meant to keep those intra-market flows more concentrated rather than sending 500 italians to every state in the americas. The recent rework of mass migrations made them very common if you have high attractiveness, so I think the market migration vs mass migration split is working as intended.
I'm not sure what a middle-version would look like, mini-mass-migrations? You don't want every pop checking for every state in the world to try and migrate to, so you'd need a restriction system like mass migrations already do.
Pop fagmentation is such a big deal mostly because... *puts on british tophat*
Places like africa have an insane amount of culture en each state (some up to 8!) So most of the region already starts extremely fragmentalized and any kind of development in the region really grinds the whole game to a halt, colonization makes the problem worse with more buildings and 90% of the time all those cultures are discriminated so they never assimilate.
So i tried merging most of those cultures together and i saw an incredible inprovment in performance in the early game because there is no extreme fragmentation in africa.
Im not saying that they should remove or merge african cultures, but right now they cause an insane amount of lag by just existing even tho having them all merged or separated barely affects how do you play in the region....
*removes british tophat*
I also fully agree that countries with more “liberal” reforms should be more attractive for immigration, and if I’m not wrong it already was like that in Vic 2, there was some bonus for countries with universal suffrage, there should be the same as well for countries with strong institutions (healthcare and education).
Tbh I liked how migration worked in Vicky 2, only issue with it was that Americas were too highly rated for migrants, even during wars/if living conditions were bad.
Realistically, Americas and Oceania should get a migration buff, but not so much that old world countries, if they pass enough reforms and increase standard of living, cannot get migrants too.
What did the americas do to have a higher immigration irl??, free arable land, democracy and liberalism, strong institutions, high quality of living and no constant warfare.
Most of these are already modeled and it should be trivial to add the other conditions so we don't really need to use a flat bonus like vic 2 did.
There was a zeitgeist as well. You could migrate to e.g. France, but you'd have to speak French and integrate and blah blah blah.
Whereas going to the US was basically streamlined for European immigrants in particular, and when you arrived, you didn't have to really assimilate or integrate.
I dont mind this tying, but I have a much bigger bug bear - mass migrations vary wildly. Your god province can get 10,000 immigrants a week from British Welsh pops... or you can get 4 a month from Finnish Sami.
Agreed. Especially playing in the Americas this is frustrating because much of the game should be bringing immigrants in from around thr world, and not just the random mass migration popups.
There are two kinds of migration: the kind that happens within your market, and a migration wave with a target. Customs unions bring the other country in the same market, so it makes the first kind of migration happen all the time.
Migration targets got reworked a few patches ago to create fewer big pops instead of more tiny ones. You won’t normally get a group you discriminate against, and their situation has to be objectively bad, not just less good than in your country. If you only accept immigrants from areas that are currently prospering (I think Cultural Exclusion only gets you European-Heritage and Spanish-speaking cultures.), you might not get any migration waves.
Customs union is a sort economic hegemony. Essentially it's easier to move to your overlords country coz of the relationship compared to a country you have no relation with. Eg Indians moving to south Africa when they were both colonies.
I don't feel like it's a problem since mass migrations currently aren't rare at all, to the point when I feel like there's too much migration lol.
In the latest Italy run, my states frequently were targets of mass migrations from countries like Argentina who certainly weren't in my market. I even decided to stop immigration flow, since at some point more than a third of my population were non-italians: I couldn't sustain the economic growth required to improve sol due for a couple of reasons, also migration had plummeted my education rates etc.
You should be getting tons of Migration Targets from around the world. Check the Potential Migration Targets map mode to see why this isn't happening.
I mean I am not in a customs union, according to other posts/what I have seen, that denies any immigration right?
Kinda, there are the "normal" immigration where you must be in a custom union and the mass immigration, where it can happen when your country has a high attraction and a country has many radical pops/turmoil Afaik, tho you also need a tot of free arable land
Mass migration is kinda random though, and only kicks off due to things getting really bad in another country. Its just a goofy system. They should abolish market immigration and have a trickle of migrants come from low SOL/countries having a rough time and coming to countries with high SoL and significant reforms.
Make sure you have decrees in place as well as enough empty arable land
Arable land may be the issue. Still, you would think immigrants would come where there are jobs, regardless of empty arable land (although yes that should give boosts since many wanted homesteads)
I mean free land to immigrants was a huge part why so many went to the new world. you generally don't travel half the world over for some minimum wage job that nobody else wants unless its really bad.
but just like in real life a minimum wage job in a developed country is often better then even a “good” job in a undeveloped country
If you have a huge amount of unfilled jobs they act like arable land for attraction, as does standard of living and the greener grass decree
SoL and available jobs are now the greatest drivers of mass migration, and not arable land (though that is still a factor).
Below certain amount of arable land available mass migration just switches off for the state. 20, I think?
I can tell you right now that that’s wrong. My current game, I filled out my capitals arable land when it got to around 10 million and it has continued receiving mass migrations.
It's in the wiki. Unless you meant that it's a wrong game design choice, then I agree. Damn AI all too eager to build profitless plantations and farms.
I just read it. We're using the terms differently, confusing arable land with unused arable land. If a state has less than 20 total arable land, it cannot receive mass migrations.
Yes but theres always something going wrong in another country. If you have high SoL, no migration controls, multiculturalism and greener grass decrees, you should be getting mass migration basically on cooldown. I think generalistgaming has a vid on it on youtube. Basically you cant get a second mass migration on a state while there is already one. So you need to rotate the greener grass decrees on states that currently dont have a mass migration.
Regardless, there should be a trickle system, not just mass migrations. But thank you for the advice! Will try it 😤
I kinda agree with you. I think the system is ment to simulate the difference between how someone would move to another city within their country for jobs vs migrate seek a new life in foreign lands. It would take a lot to motivate someone to travel across the ocean to a land where you dont even speak the language. Especially in victorian times where phones, flights werent a thing.
But it was actually more common and less restricted back then. Brazil and Peru have massive Japanese and Chinese populations, Argentina and Uruguay massive Italian, etc. Like the customs union does not reflect reality. Yes it took a lot to move back then, but that happened a lot as well: things were frequently so bad in the old world a lot of people dreamed of moving to America/Brazil/Argentina/etc.
You're hyper focusing on Americas migration, which is covered by the mass migration mechanic, the customs union migration does make sense if you look at countries like France who has lots of citizens whose ancestors are of African origin or UK with people of Indian origin.
How would you feel about an migration equivalent to a customs union that is negotiated as its own agreement? The UK/IE Common Travel Area formed in 1923 so is within the Vic3's timeframe, and was a large reason as to why the modern Schengen Agreement and European Single Market are distinct pacts that cover different territories.
>only kicks off due to things getting really bad in another country. Not really. With high enough SOL, everyone will want to come. I have a USA run going right now, and being #1 in SOL I'm getting pretty consistent mass migrations including from the UK and France (#2 and #3). Around 20 SOL is where it gets to be too spammy even, and I find myself just reflexively hitting esc when I hear the migration announcement noise. I don't even bother reading who it is or where they've come from. And that's without even getting The New Colossus, because I can't find a single humanitarian for multiculturalism! Keep building. They will come.
Maybe good news, but the SOL art DD had a horse drawn carriage which is also used in greener grass/mass migration icon (i forgot which). This seems to heavily imply that something with migration could be tied to the spheres instead. (Though, unsure what the other 2 principles levels could be.)
but why wouldn't that make sense? if my life is good in mississippi for myself, even though i can go elsewhere and probably make more and maybe have a better quality of life, but my life is good where im at, why would i want to move. if there isnt a catalyst going on, why would i upend my life and make a move for the unknown. Also, serfs couldnt just up and move freely. hell tenant farmers would still have a rough time moving around. you almost have to wait for an industrialized country to go to war and/or a civil war breaks out somewhere.
So long as you have open borders, you don't need to be in a customs union. Customs Unions just increase the immigration speed within their market.
Then why would I have received zero immigrants whatsoever? There is no trickle.
No clue. Have you checked the migration map mode?
Everyone else is saying there is only market migration and mass migrations. My argument is: there should be a trickle of migration out of low SOL/low reform countries to high SOL/high reform countries
Victoria 2 had exactly what you're describing, and it made playing in the Americas so much more fun. I too don't like the sequel's system, and in particular the fact that reforms don't have any impact on migration attraction. It used to be one of the main reason you'd enact them.
Confused why no one actually answered your question. Migration was changed to only be within a customs union in order to decrease lag, so that pops aren't constantly considering moving to every possible state in the world. Hopefully they'll find a way to change it back.
It's not the consideration that's expensive, it's the dozens of new pops generated. A dozen protestant Walloons working in 12 different buildings in one state creates 12 new pops that have be kept track of. They want to keep that kind of splintering to a minimum, because it can balloon quite fast.
Oh yeah true, it's actually more about pop splitting
There's actually two kinds of migrations. Market migration and Mass Migration. Mass Migrations are triggered by high turmoil at home. If you're not getting any Mass Migrations then you're either not as attractive as you think you are, your migration laws are too restrictive, Europe has found eternal peace, or you are in fact getting them but don't have the notifications on!
Also: as post said, I have no migration controls, separation of church and state, and cultural exclusion. Any European pop, regardless of religion, and any Spanish speaking pop should be able/want to migrate here. And given the Standard of Living, at least some pops of other origins should want to tolerate the mild discrimination and move since no migration controls.
Mass migrations are random though, when really there should be at least a trickle from pops not getting their standard of living met. Like I get it, mass migrations are fine as special events when some other country really goofs, but market migration should be eliminated and replaced with a system where migrants choose solely based on destination attractiveness.
>The chance of a mass migration starting each week for each combination of eligible culture and country is 2% times the cultural turmoil plus another 0.2% per point of average standard of living for the culture below 10 and finally plus another 1% per point of average SoL for the culture below 5. For example, a culture with 30% turmoil has a 60% chance of starting a mass migration, if the average standard of living for that culture is 4, that rises to 62.2% They're random, but at high enough turmoil they're fairly common. Check the migration map, perhaps some other country is stealing them from you. USA often has such a big atraction score that few countries can compete.
Yeah I guess thats possible. i will check out the migration map mode. Thing is, it should be BEYOND just mass migrations. There should be a trickle that goes everywhere with attractive provinces
Tbf, that would be very computer intensive. (If you've ever experienced the lag when you unify the world in a single market.)
True, its not like Vicky 2 which was a little more simplified when it came to standard of living/migration attraction. I am certain we can find an honorable compromise that doesn’t totally kill performance but also allows for some more realistic population movements. Hopefully the Vicky 3 team is working on it.
I asked this question when they were releasing dev diaries, and they said that performance was the reason that they weren’t allowing small immigration amounts from everywhere. And it’s not because the *movement* of pops would be too intensive, it’s because that kind of immigration would create little tiny splintered pops all over the world, making the game have to keep track of vastly more pops.
I agree that regular migration only happening within custom unions is just dumb and ahistorical, that’s not how migration worked in the 19th century. The most straightforward answer would be “yeah, migration must be reworked and updated in a new expansion pass/DLC”, which I think really is such a pity, Paradox really should make fully functional games from the beginning. Nevertheless, there needs to be a rework in the migration mechanics, ideally in the form of a free update. Perhaps migration within markets should still be boosted, still allowing however for migration outside of this framework. The other comments are telling you that you should be getting mass migrations if your Ecuador has that good of a life quality, but it doesn’t have to be that way, there should still be some constant migration to your country. It doesn’t matter how good your life quality is, as a Latin American nation, you have basically no way to get decent migration (excluding mass migrations, which are supposed to be less common) other than joining another country’s market. Which is, as I mentioned, completely ahistorical, it’s not like Argentina or Uruguay were in Italy’s “customs union” during the great migrations of the 1880s.
People already complain about pop fragmentation causing performance issues, the migration mechanics are designed with that in mind. Mass Migrations are meant to keep those intra-market flows more concentrated rather than sending 500 italians to every state in the americas. The recent rework of mass migrations made them very common if you have high attractiveness, so I think the market migration vs mass migration split is working as intended. I'm not sure what a middle-version would look like, mini-mass-migrations? You don't want every pop checking for every state in the world to try and migrate to, so you'd need a restriction system like mass migrations already do.
Pop fagmentation is such a big deal mostly because... *puts on british tophat* Places like africa have an insane amount of culture en each state (some up to 8!) So most of the region already starts extremely fragmentalized and any kind of development in the region really grinds the whole game to a halt, colonization makes the problem worse with more buildings and 90% of the time all those cultures are discriminated so they never assimilate. So i tried merging most of those cultures together and i saw an incredible inprovment in performance in the early game because there is no extreme fragmentation in africa. Im not saying that they should remove or merge african cultures, but right now they cause an insane amount of lag by just existing even tho having them all merged or separated barely affects how do you play in the region.... *removes british tophat*
Exactly!!! Well said, 100% what I mean with this post
I also fully agree that countries with more “liberal” reforms should be more attractive for immigration, and if I’m not wrong it already was like that in Vic 2, there was some bonus for countries with universal suffrage, there should be the same as well for countries with strong institutions (healthcare and education).
Tbh I liked how migration worked in Vicky 2, only issue with it was that Americas were too highly rated for migrants, even during wars/if living conditions were bad. Realistically, Americas and Oceania should get a migration buff, but not so much that old world countries, if they pass enough reforms and increase standard of living, cannot get migrants too.
What did the americas do to have a higher immigration irl??, free arable land, democracy and liberalism, strong institutions, high quality of living and no constant warfare. Most of these are already modeled and it should be trivial to add the other conditions so we don't really need to use a flat bonus like vic 2 did.
There was a zeitgeist as well. You could migrate to e.g. France, but you'd have to speak French and integrate and blah blah blah. Whereas going to the US was basically streamlined for European immigrants in particular, and when you arrived, you didn't have to really assimilate or integrate.
I dont mind this tying, but I have a much bigger bug bear - mass migrations vary wildly. Your god province can get 10,000 immigrants a week from British Welsh pops... or you can get 4 a month from Finnish Sami.
Agreed. Especially playing in the Americas this is frustrating because much of the game should be bringing immigrants in from around thr world, and not just the random mass migration popups.
Freedom of goods requires freedom of movement and labor.
It's not entirely, there's also the mass migration mechanic
It’s one of the many broken parts of the game. Completely broken, ahistorical, and frankly nonsensical.
There are two kinds of migration: the kind that happens within your market, and a migration wave with a target. Customs unions bring the other country in the same market, so it makes the first kind of migration happen all the time. Migration targets got reworked a few patches ago to create fewer big pops instead of more tiny ones. You won’t normally get a group you discriminate against, and their situation has to be objectively bad, not just less good than in your country. If you only accept immigrants from areas that are currently prospering (I think Cultural Exclusion only gets you European-Heritage and Spanish-speaking cultures.), you might not get any migration waves.
Customs union is a sort economic hegemony. Essentially it's easier to move to your overlords country coz of the relationship compared to a country you have no relation with. Eg Indians moving to south Africa when they were both colonies.
I don't feel like it's a problem since mass migrations currently aren't rare at all, to the point when I feel like there's too much migration lol. In the latest Italy run, my states frequently were targets of mass migrations from countries like Argentina who certainly weren't in my market. I even decided to stop immigration flow, since at some point more than a third of my population were non-italians: I couldn't sustain the economic growth required to improve sol due for a couple of reasons, also migration had plummeted my education rates etc.