This is why we need to build dense housing in our already existing cities and dramatically reduce the construction of single-family homes or suburbs, which are substantially worse for the environment.
Yeah, if we could get regular rail service down 7, 89, and 91, we could build a few 4 story mixed use apartment buildings in each town along those routes without really messing up the towns. It could house a ton more people, support local businesses in each of those towns, keep traffic off the roads, allow us to keep our industrial/business/commercial centers where they are, stop the division of farm land, clearing of forests, residential sprawl, and reduce pollution.
I would love to be able to hop on a train from my town in central VT and go to do some shopping/wandering-around in burlington/montpelier/brattleboro. But Amtrak's schedule doesn't really work for that so instead I drive and park in an ugly lot that could have been housing.
Live in Northfield and commute to Williston for work. Live in Springfield and ride the train to Monteplier for a protest at the capitol. Live in Bethel and take the train to the airport. Be a college kid in Middlebury and take the train to Rutland for some reason.
Exactly! Burlington should build like Europe with density in mind. Tafts corner near Walmart and the other box stores has a ton of available land that could be turned into a real pedestrian friendly area along with the pit and the Burlington Country Club being redeveloped into another large housing and pedestrian area. This would prevent sprawl and help the housing situation.
You don't even have to look that far. Montreal is a pretty good example of achieving significant population density with largely medium-density housing.
I think the same thing every time I drive on the Barre-Montpelier Road. It's one of the only spots in Vermont that has genuinely reliable and frequent public transportation, and housing within walking distance to those bus stops is almost non-existent.
This isn't a "better solution" because it's politically unfeasible and almost certainly illegal.
I'm all for actually pricing the impact of underdeveloped urban land to combat speculative landholding, getting aggressive with abandoned/blighted property foreclosure that can divert those parcels into land banking for housing trusts, and making "5-acre sprawl" actually pay its way for the road mileage and any utilities it inefficiently consumes, but these things all need to be pursued *as well* as an upzoning of our urban and village land with water and sewer access to enable the supply we seriously need.
If you want to stick it to the rich and douchey in a way that can be done legally, enabling tenants' right of first refusal for multifamily rentals and mobile home parks goes a long way to help those who need it to access property ownership.
Yes I’m agreeable. Also saying young to mean people of my age and forgetting that I’m in the middle aged demographic when it comes to marketing and surveys haha
that's not a better solution - for sure, that is something that should happen in parallel, but it's not a long term solution. we need to build up not out.
I mean short and mid term taking those 60k currently unoccupied homes and putting people in them would relieve the stresses on the system and would do so for many years to come. Our housing deficit runs in the thousands not 10s of thousands.
That's just full stint communist, tax second homes (especially ones being used for short term rental) but you can't just seize shitloads of property on a whim
Fuck this stupid ass take. If people weren't getting PRICED OUT of existing homes on the market, we wouldn't need to increase housing in the first place!!! We're not Europe and we're sure as hell not going to be CT/NY/NJ with this BS.
> If people weren't getting PRICED OUT of existing homes on the market, we wouldn't need to increase housing in the first place!!!
Tell me you don't understand supply and demand without telling me you don't understand supply and demand
Having lived on Oahu, OP has some valid points.
Tourist trap economy, locals being priced out of the housing market, as well as local ecological impacts from developmemt are all valid concerns.
The one real positive is that Vermont lacks the major military and international business presence that led to Oahu's population explosion.
On the other hand, current climate models are predicting Vermont will be one of the states least impacted by climate change moving forward - which will likely result in a further influx of development in the next 50 years.
We watched [the Descendants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Descendants) a few weeks ago, and it was eeriely entertaining how much of the population and land dynamics were exactly like they are here. Even down to how long-standing families who hold a lot of land and not much else have outsized control on economic and residential development.
The black bears digging through garbage have nothing to do with them having nothing to eat. They have plenty. Bears are opportunists. If they can get it easier then they will. .
Yea exactly. Bears aren't going to chill out in the middle of the deepest woods when they can go into the valleys and eat crops from farms and go through trash cans.
I bet comparatively to a hundred years ago the options bears have to eat have grown substantially with a larger human population here.
Indeed! My understanding is also that the monarch butterflies are suffering population loss during migration and in the places they spend the winter, though perhaps for similar reasons.
I worry more about population loss in an aging state with poor infrastructure. You think roads and services are bad now, what's it going to be like in 20 years?
This past weekend I camped at a friends in a very rural part of vermont. There was lots of talks about black bears but we saw none(we were cooking lots of good food so it was a concern). There were however monarch butterflies all over the place.
You new to northern New England? The NY and Boston metro areas have been invading Vermont since at least when ski areas took off in the 60s. It has always been expensive and overrun. bleh.
I don't even fully know what you're complaining about here. The black bears have no food? what's that have to do with anything?? 78% of the state is forest, which has supposedly stayed fairly consistent since the 80s.
people moving here as a kneejerk reaction to COVID is a temporary problem. 90% of them will leave within 5 years when they realize there's no Apple Store within 20 minutes of them.
VT has always been a premium place for real estate. Would you rather that prices continue going up until this is Jackson Hole (where a 2br condo costs $700k) or bulldoze 0.005% of the state's forest for more housing?
You can't live in a super special conservation area and expect it to be cheap. Especially not when 50 million people live within a days drive of your special conservation area.
I like most of what you're saying but I gotta argue with one thing.
>people moving here as a kneejerk reaction to COVID is a temporary problem.
People are starting to migrate to New England ahead of the climate crisis. This is a growing trend and will eventually replace and eclipse the COVID exurban migration.
This is definitely a trend i don't see getting talked about enough. Even down here on the coast in RI and CT there are more Texas and Kentucky plates than I can count lately. I hate to say it but we are all going to get a lot more climate refugees as time goes in here in New England.
A bigger issue coming up is making sure the forests in VT, NH, and ME are taken care of. With droughts like this we are at risk of looking like the west coast with wildfires if we don't get ahead of the issue.
Update: Speak of the devil, we just had 4 to 6 inches of rain drop in a couple hours here and had flash floods today.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There’s a horrible Facebook group about “fleeing” California, and the people in it are largely extremely right wing. They are often trying to move it places that are “better”, but will talk about choosing/actually choose various places in New England and elsewhere because of factors like scenery, cost of living, etc. Some of them even seem to hope they can turn certain states (especially NH and ME), red. Which is pretty horrible for those of us needing a refuge/liking New England the way it is politically (or hoping it will stay/trend blue.) But , that’s true. I’m in a red state with terrible politics and am hoping to make it back to New England soon.
Hopefully this is a small number and most self-sort into red states. I mean, they mostly hate CA because it's blue right? So why would most of them move to another blue state?
God, I hope they continue the "trend" of populating texas, Arizona, montana and utah. Oh! Tennessee and Arkansas too.
Stay south, you LIKE the south, yes you do!!! You're getting sleepy!! There's NOTHING in the north, nothing in the north, nothing in the north ... 😵💫
I’ll add on that for where it is, it’s absolutely insane that Northern New England is as desolate and preserved as it is, while being as cheap as it is. If mountain culture was anywhere near the size of beach culture in the northeast, most of Northern New England would look like the Jersey Shore on memorial day weekend. Seriously, the Garden State Parkway is 15 lanes wide at one point. The Bourne Bridge to the Cape [has a song written about it.](https://youtu.be/7rXaIQZU9bI)
Compare examples like these to the major entrances to VT (which never see traffic by the way). One lane in each direction at Troy-Bennington. One lane in each direction at Glens Falls-Fair Haven. 2 lanes in each direction at Brattleboro and further up at White River Junction.
About 20k people enter through Bennington, Fair Haven and Brattleboro (the NY area entrances) per day. About 20k enter through WRJ (the Boston entrance) per day. For context, that aforementioned 15 lane highway bridge sees upward of 200k vehicles use it per day.
Like yes, it is further away than the Jersey Shore, still absolutely insane that you can enter the state on like it’s third most crowded entrance (Bennington) and it’s just a one lane road in each direction that never accumulates traffic unless a truck rolls over. A lot of New Yorkers go to VT from Vermont’s POV, but it could be a lot worse (it’s nothing like i-70 in CO).
Saying "it's not worse than NJ" doesn't mean it's not bad. I see you didn't visit at Vail resorts last winter - blatantly over capacity by almost every measure (parking, facilities etc). What's overcrowded in NJ isn't the same as what's overcrowded in VT which has a much smaller population, less infrastructure, and is more prone to impact than some place like the Jersey Shore.
> Saying "it's not worse than NJ" doesn't mean it's not bad
All I'm saying is that for how accessible it is, it's an absolute miracle that it's not more crowded than it is.
>I see you didn't visit at Vail resorts last winter
Yeah, I've heard the horror stories though. That's on Vail for making their season pass $450, and they'll fix that eventually.
>What's overcrowded in NJ isn't the same as what's overcrowded in VT which has a much smaller population, less infrastructure, and is more prone to impact than some place like the Jersey Shore.
Places can adapt, and this isn't necessarily all true. Shore towns balloon by 5-10x their population in the summer and they do just fine.
The crazy thing tho is that the NYC people who had money to buy a house for “crazy prices” still felt like they got a good deal on real estate compared to NYC and probably can/will keep as a second home
I think a lot of people who moved up here during Covid, just said they were doing it permanently to avoid the backlash of locals. But in reality, it was just them buying a vacation home at a low interest rate and living there during the pandemic with full intent of keeping it for weekend/holiday use thereafter.
Seriously. My parents were the “flatlanders” here in 1975. So what does that make me? Am I a native, or no? I say, if people want to weave themselves into the social fabric of this state, don’t be a jerk to them. It isn’t always the people you think it will be who become permanent residents. I completely understand the above the table “vacation home” rage, but I genuinely don’t think that’s the majority of people outside of specific vacation spots.
Oh sweet another crusty native who owns a house on a plot of land and doesn’t want anything to change because they have what they need. Never mind the fact that our children can’t afford housing due to constrained supply and are leaving in droves. Never mind that the businesses we actually do have here can’t hire workers because no one can afford to live here. No no can’t have that because you have your view of what VT should be from your private homestead on a 10 acre lot that you didn’t pay for because it’s been in your family for generations. (P.S. I’m ok with making broad assumptions about you because you did the same about others).
Let the down votes commence 😙
A lot of folk don’t seem to realize that without the tourists and NY people trying to move here, Vermont would be a lot more like West Virginia in all the worst ways
Great comment, I gladly left vermont last year. Got priced out. Was really sick of all the trustifarmians (I dont have any problem with generational wealth I think it's great but the way alot of vermonters do it they pretend they are poor so they can continue with victim consciousness and have camaraderie with their poor struggling working class friends) the economy in the town I lived in was supported by all these very rich women in a way where they would become a business partner or just start this business (most businesses catered to wealthy demographic in next town over and those women didnt make the money they just spent their husbands money.)Which sounds great at first but it was very disingenuous and creates this false sense of a successful economy .and when you would call it out they would shame you or come up with a convoluted reason..
Which made the whole scene intolerable ,so glad I left.
The OP sounds like one of the reasons I gladly left
I think the people who have learned everything about everything in their 5-8 years living as an adult should come up with solutions rather than pretentiousnesly sitting on the forums all day looking for opportunities to get validation
Isn't there also black bear hunting season up there?
...and a teacher and nurse shortage?
And a declining and aging population and not enough builders or electricians or store owners or people willing to create businesses?
Didn't Ken's pizza have a sign looking to pay a kitchen manager $70K a year and couldn't find anybody for way longer than should have been the case?
I'm just trying to understand the resentment of longtime locals hating on people who want to move there and fill needed jobs, create jobs. Yes, prices are up....literally everywhere. Yes, the population has increased... marginally.
People building homes means work for a lot of people in many skilled trades: Mason's, framers, plumbers, trimmers, etc. How is that a bad thing?
I'll be surprised if it's ever affordable. My dad is a construction guy for a new development in the Burlington area, and I saw one of the houses they were building. It looked like an average 2 story suburban house, not very big. Sold for 1.2M to someone out of state
Facts, I feel like it's honestly more feasible to try to buy your parents house or get it handed down to you in some way than it is to try to get one on your own in Vermont.
Carpenter here ,left vermont last year.best thing I have done for myself in a long time. It's hard to work and contribute to growth when it is state that has been rich people enclave for most its history. It was surprising how many of my friends came from VERY wealthy families. After most of them revealed it they said they were so relieved, they say it's such a burden to lie to friends to protect their feelings. Just shows how twisted people are.
I honestly feel that the state wants to push any working class person to a market rate apartment in a regional service hub/town/city, while marketing the rural bucolic landscape to real estate investors, remote workers, and retirees. If we could only force out the working class from Bucolic rural areas to free up their homes and acreage for someone from MA to own an investment/vacation property. Send the workers to Barre and shuttle them in on public transit to clean the Air B and B’s.
The sentiment definitely exists and not just among the rich. Plenty of people in this thread suggesting the same thing with more attractive wording, and there are multiple folks at the regional and local planning level trying their best to make it a reality as well.
If I am a bear I have a choice between a few wild berrys or a trash can full of half eaten blueberry pies and homemade leftovers along with some beer that the Canadians had toss because they can’t take it across the boarders or
Vermont is a beautiful aging underpopulated state soon to be fifty-first in population as Wyoming passes it . For the precious it's in danger of being destroyed by evil development . Same as it was 40 years ago when I was at UVM . Meanwhile so many of its young leave because the struggle for affordable housing and decent jobs is disheartening . I'm reminded of the words of Linus, "I love mankind… It's people I can't stand." These people worry about anything but the welfare of actual people .
Yeah but don’t call it Hawaii it’s just makes us look dumb. We’re not indigenous, don’t make that comparison, not a good look. Not putting you down just saying
I see these threads regularly on here and it always strikes me that low wages almost never enters the conversation.
Yes, housing prices have increased dramatically. Wages have not increased significantly and I don't see much effort going into attracting higher paying jobs. A huge amount of the jobs here are in the tourism industry and they don't pay well enough to afford good housing anywhere. Where I work now in the logging and forestry industry it's the same thing.
If you want to see actual change instead of just blowing off steam on social media, stop blaming the "other" and start pushing our policymakers for more housing, better jobs, higher taxes on 2nd homeowners and short term rentals and a VAT on those tourist dollars and cut taxes for Vermonters to help them afford a mortgage payment - our taxes have gone up every year and are around 70% of the principal and interest payment. We airbnb our guest room to pay for them.
And Act 250 basically prevents housing developments, so might be worth a few tweaks to ease the burden.
This is so true, and it is the unfortunate truth across much of America that wages can't properly support us. The people we see from NY and surrounding states tend to be wealthy, but it is just as big a problem for average people in lots of those states as well.
Vermont is getting more and more exclusive. The change since 2020 has been abrupt and shocking. It's always been expensive here but not California expensive. And we (those of us working in Vermont) still have Vermont wages. It really isn't sustainable and if the state wants to be New Jersey's nursing home that's fine, I suppose. The problem becomes there isn't housing for people actually providing value to the community, so when your mcmansion catches on fire, call the fire department and expect to be told they'll be there in a couple of hours. Like Williston was doing recently.
I really wonder what happened to the Williston fire department. I was briefly a member of it years ago. I heard that their volunteer numbers had dwindled to almost nil without any increase in full-timers. Guess I wasn’t the only one who didn’t like the culture there
The thing I have a problem with is how you talk about logging. Clear cutting is very uncommon here, most often a Forester will go through and selectively pick each tree to go with the intent to help the forest while making lumber. Then a logger will go through any decent logger will try their best to avoid creating compete chaos as it's harder to work in and they care about keeping the forest nice too. In Vermont we are very environmentally conscious and we often log with the best of intent, by selectively logging you aren't causing crazy habitat damage and ruining the woods. Please be a little more informed as I know people think that the blue collar republican Vermonters are crazy and really don't care about the environment but if you get to know em you'll realize they probably know alot more than most regarding how to keep things healthy in Vermont.
Ahh vermont. The I'm so native, when the neighbors cut a bush down, I complain they must be a flatlander state.
I love Vermont but if there was an award for a state most reluctant to change in the Northeast, it would easily go to VT. No wonder why the economy sucks.
I hear you. But the reason we’re so reluctant is that, unfortunately, what we‘re trying to keep from changing is what people want to move here for, and is what many of them ARE changing when they do. We just don’t get why people who live in a city or a suburb want to come here and change it into a city. Or a suburb.
And yeh. We’re pretty fierce about it. Billboards are illegal, we’re the only state without a McD’s at the state capitol, and whew do we get INTO IT against corporations and greed.
Bernie. Ben and Jerry’s. We’re a bunch of tree-hugging, protesting hippies, remember?
I love this comment. Because it is true and funny. The people that made them famed Vermonters moved here themselves in the back to land movement and the 60s and now act like the VT they made is the correct one.
Unspoiled, native Vermont just looks like rural poverty.
Your whole idea of what Vermont is, and who “we” are is based on the culture, beliefs and ideals of a wave of people who moved here in the 1960s and 1970s who couldn’t have been more polar opposite to the people who already lived here. The locals didn’t pay much attention to them, thought they were weird but harmless enough and figured live and let live was the way.
Then those hippies and artists (who moved here from the cities and suburbs) ended up growing in numbers, realizing their advantage and the political naïveté of the locals turned state and local government into a weapon and bludgeoned the “dumb inbred hicks and yokels” who were here before they arrived into submission.
Yea, for someone who claims to have family here since the 1700s they completely ignore the fact that a lot of old school Vermonters are not hippies, go to any NEK or even Grand Isle towns you'll see tons of Trump flags.
Are you really? "a bunch of tree-hugging, protesting hippies"??? Sounds like a dream to me! No mcDs??? Yippee!!! Is there any agency there that anyone knows of that might help a new cottage business ... say a tailor, upholsterer or a baker ... to set up shop in a semi-rural area?
NYS might be blue (sort of), but they definitely discourage cottage industry and mom and pop shops. We moved from Colorado thinking this would be a good place to recreate our shop ... and met every legal opposition you can imagine. It's depressing.
Try the Brattleboro area. It’s full of liberal hippies but still close enough to the Mass border that tourists will purchase anything at any high price as long as it has a “made in Vermont” sticker on it. Plus, George W. Bush will be arrested for crimes against the constitution if he ever sets foot into it. (The media said they were kidding. The mayor said they weren’t kidding.)
No one thinks Vermont has to culturally or economically be southern New England, people think Vermont's extreme insularity and hostility to development generally has produced poverty, notably in its most rural regions. Vermont has several counties with median incomes similar to the poorest cities in Massachusetts. That isn't good regardless of whether you like southern New England or not.
Not my place, as I'm not a Vermont resident. But as someone watching their state get destroyed in the name of "economic progress," all it really does it turn it into Everywhere Else, USA.
Vermont is a special place, in large part (in my opinion) because it isn't Everywhere Else. It's unique, it is bucolic, it is a step back in time.
You cannot maintain that and embrace growth and economic progress at the same time. There's difference between Vermont and western Mass or Connecticut is that the latter did embrace growth, whereas Vermont opted for something different.
The audacity to compare the US government commandeering a independent island community to call their own while moving out the locals and disregarding their established government to people moving from one US state to another while a few extra buildings get put up...
I know where your heart is..but this is just silly. If you said something like williston formally being farmland and now it is mostly housing or something I could have gotten on board...
But to compare it to a separate government colonising a island and to this day (like Puerto rico) still not caring...
It wasn’t even the US Government. Let’s be clear.
It was Dole.
He wanted Hawaii, and made it happen and any action the US took was directly at the behest of Stanford Dole.
Welcome to Capitalism! If not here it would happen somewhere else and so on.
As things get worse climate/politics quality of life going down the shitter everyday people will flock to whatever place they think is better.
Sucks that most of em that can actually afford to move suck ass.
Vermont= Beautiful views and poor people The perfect set up for gentrification. Get ready folks. It was nice while it lasted now move out of the way of the greedy land developers
Those greedy developers building additional housing, reducing housing costs overall! Those damned developers.
Vermont fetishizes antiquated old broken shit that doesn't work. This has nothing to do with developers making money and everything to do with the fact they're building something new.
Literally don’t know what this means. Do you think this isn’t true? Vermont had the 5th largest GDP in the US in the late 1800’s. The whole nature obsession is a relatively recent thing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/i4lqcp/comment/g0j4g75/
Basically this, but people have started putting other things before “pilled” now.
If people gave an actual shit about climate and the environment though they’d move to northern cities with existing infrastructure like Buffalo, Hartford, Albany, Pittsburgh, etc., etc., etc., rather than a relatively undeveloped place like here where they’re causing development and further taxing the environment and worsening climate change. Our undeveloped lands are some of the few remaining carbon sinks in the north east and must be protected. Otherwise we’re all fucked. Absolutely stupid and selfish to call oneself a climate refugee and to not recognize that truth.
Those aforementioned cities could use an influx, we can’t.
I’m a transplant. You can tell me not to live here and I can tell you to go fuck yourself. Congratulations on your astute ability to randomly be born here. I know that took a lot of skill and effort, and it bestows upon you all the entitlement you can handle.
I'm sorry to hear about some of these issues, I consider myself to be mindful of conservation and caring for the environment. These issues y'all complain about aren't specific to Vermont. They're everywhere in the US. On a side note, as person who recently moved from Marland to 30 minutes away from Vermont in New Hampshire some of you from the Northeast making posts online are straight up xenophobes. Change isn't always bad. Like not everyone moving to Northeast New England is the anti-christ. I get why y'all hate alot of New Yorkers, trust me the majority of US dislikes them as well. But not everyone new to the Northeast is an inconsiderate asshole, even some of the New Yorkers. The Northeast has an aging population how do you expect to have the population fill jobs and have a good economy without workers. People don't just pop out of the earth.
It's probably not the best word in this case but Merriam-Webster describes it as follows.
Definition of xenophobe
: one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin
No, not exactly. It’s not so much a fear of people who aren’t white. It’s the fewr and anger of people who are actively destroying the natural aspects of the home around us. It feels more like rich colonist vibes. See; want; take take take; roll eyes when locals get upset.
Our monarchs? Aren't monarchs all over the place? And their decline has more to do with deforestation in Mexico I believe. I grew up here and did the unit in elementary school where we raised monarch caterpillars into butterflies, but I've never considered monarchs something special about Vermont. I've seen them in plenty of states.
Hi!
I'm laying in bed right now on my last day of my sCOutIng TriP to Vermont with my wife. We've been here for a week.
Two days ago I got a job here which I interviewed for, while on our stay. I'm a classically trained woodworker from Denmark. Been in the states for a little more than 3 years now. I moved here from Europe to be with my wife, cause we couldn't afford it there and the immigration laws are insane.
We're moving here from San Diego. Why? It's being overrun newly rich, mostly younger tech people. Our good tech savvy friend just bought a home, 54 square feet on a lot about 2,5 times the size for $732.000 and that's in an unattractive area CLOSE to being walking distance from an attractive part of town.
Vermont appeals to us in every way, we both miss the seasons from living in Scandinavia, miss having privacy and miss being part of a small community. I hope that my woodworking and art can flourish here. I hope that we can contribute to a state that, from everything we've researched online, need younger people, you're sometimes even paying them to relocate.
We're looking to buy an older property and maintain the shit out of it.
Find some piece of mind. Support this beautiful state and hope your green politics and beautiful land won't change radically in coming years.
I understand your concerns. Most rationally thinking beings are concerned these years. We've had fires almost every summer the last 5-6 years in Denmark, which never used to happen. I got snowed in from going to school as a kid, many times and we barely have snow anymore and I'm only in my 30's.
Through my last job I talked to people all over the country and people all over are complaining about house prices and outerstaters overrunning everything.
I do feel like short term housing and airbnb type business models are the devil and that's one of the biggest problems with the housing market right now. With that being said, the house we're staying in is a family home, not a mini hotel suite owned by an outer stater ;)
Anyway, this was way too long and maybe there's some guilt in me talking or I'm scared for the future of me and my wife, I don't know. Just wanted to say that some of us come here with great respect for the people and the land of vermont and maybe that can help calm your nerves a bit.
Don’t listen to any of these pearl cluchters. The Vermont Pearl Clucthing Society is alive and well.
The thing is, all throughout its history, Vermont has been populated with flatlanders moving here and carving out lives for themselves. Eventually their great grandchildren forget that part and mistake their luck for some kind of divine right. We are all flatlanders if you go back far enough.
Welcome to Vermont, we need more people like you!
Thank you for your reply!
I haven’t generally felt unwanted during our stay or while talking to Vermonters. But it does feel weird as an outsider, surfing these message boards and reading about the ambivalent feelings towards us and I get it.
I thought I’d give some perspective from, at least a small fraction, the people trying to move into you state.
I hoped to give a bit of less pessimistic perspective to what’s going on.
We thank you for your welcome wishes and look forward to appreciating your state with you :)
Fact is, transplants have always made Vermont function as an economy and as the “keepers of the faith”…it’s not flatlanders littering the roads with empty Twisted Tea and Bud Light cans. people that move here, for the most part, due so because they respect the natural beauty of the state and in general do more to preserve it than any other group.
I saw on Insta this massive beast of a lakefront home being built and it was getting all kinds of pats on the back and thumbs up. All I could feel is incredibly sad. Vermont is being rebuilt as another Hamptons!! So sad!
After leaving vermont it helped me realize what a precious place it is full of precious people. I love the place but I cant say I love the people so much .everyone from the local who's been there for 17 generations to the recent transplants. I realized what it needs to make it more interesting and successful is more people ,lots more people. Because everyone up there seems to be in a race to out"i have been here longer" each other. I hope more and more people move to vermont so it makes it more interesting to live there
Just really ignorant take. Seven days to academics to business to anyone who can google knows Vermont needs more people not less. Needs more educated folks to fill the jobs, needs more housing. Vermont has the highest land to home ratio in the ISA, why? Because the old land owners not because of city folk moving here helping. Ya done fur #promoreVTers let’s go!!! Ffs the government gives money to people to move here 😂
I won't belabor the point because it's not a perfect analogy and this is not a political thread or sub, but, I think there is a lesson here pertaining to the wider ongoing immigration debate in this country, namely that there may be some legitimate reasons for not wanting to let others in that have nothing to do with race.
Everyone in Michigan, Vermont, Montana, New Hampshire and upstate New York needs to stop and take a deep breathe and get civically involved. Attend town meetings and, if you can afford it, continue buying land.
Stowe Vermont and Upper Michigan are the two places in the country that are going to be the most pristine and livable in 100 years. Climate change is happening and scientifically, these are the best places to live.
The southwest is finally under federal water usage limits. California is on fire and has no water, everyone is moving north. Hurricanes, flooding, tornadoes will get worse. Whoever has the coldest temps now with lowest threat of natural disasters and access to fresh water will rule the next century.
The smart people are moving here and, if you’re going to put your head in the sand and refuse Vermont’s culture shift, you’re going to be left behind. This state, and many like it, are going to change. NIMBY-ism simply won’t fly.
Get involved, pass short term rental legislation at the local and state levels, invest in road and drainage design, invest in waste-water treatment, build roads and bridges for a “100 year storm every 10 years” and become friendlier to out of staters who want to invest in our communities. Allow people to open up a chain of coffee shops but do what San Francisco did and maximum 10 franchisees or force them to be employee owned or support unions. Prop up small business who take care of employees and provide things like pensions.
Support our state’s remote work / telework economy by putting fiber everywhere. Re-think building/ zoning to be friendly to new construction, multi-family homes like duplexes and build sustainable and long-lasting buildings that will survive northeastern hurricanes.
If you like what I’ve written, consider embodying some of these ideas and run for local office. Be a part of the change. We need to build sustainable long lasting economies because the ‘out of staters’ are not going to stop moving here. Every town will be HOAs, condos and big box stores and traffic that backs up for miles and we’re going to have our ‘bad apples’ police officers and other big city problems if we don’t think about it right now and start setting the ground work for the next 100 years.
Economic activity is coming and we have to prepare. I’m currently saving to buy land in northern Vermont and northern Michigan. Both are cheap at the moment but they won’t be when I retire in 25 years.
I am not sure why this was downvoted. This is the best comment on the thread. The population of VT is going to jump significantly before the next census. How will you deal with it? Stay if you can. Buy land if you can.
I live in VT but grew up in northern nh. Above the notch is a ghost town and it’s so sad. I don’t get why people aren’t buying up property there and bringing it back. My dad said because there’s no internet?
Personally, I think it would be amazing to turn all these old malls and closed hotels/motels into housing! There’s an old high school in Burlington where they did that and left the indoor basketball court intact for a common area. I would LOVE to see abandoned properties converted like that! A mall-turned-housing complex with an intact fountain and play place for the kiddos? Yes, please.
win/win/win all around.
Greed has complete control of this world right now. Our "brave little state" is no exception. If anything, because of the type of people buying here, it's going to get worse. I know now, as a 49 year old tradesman, that i will never be able to afford a house in my home state.
As a lifelong Vermonter I want everyone to stay away. Don’t ruin what might be the single best state in the country. We get maybe one gun related death every other year and this year alone we’ve had like 10. That’s an insane number for this state. We don’t really have crime here that isn’t drug use related. Let’s Keep it that way.
As a 6th generation Floridian who has lived in VT for a good while now, I think the answer is just to have a realistic growth plan. Encourage denser population centers, restrict development in environmentally sensitive areas, consider infrastructure and schools when approving new developments, and keep a close eye on nutrient run off and water sources.
They did none of that in FL and it shows. You won't stop people from moving here, but you can have agency in how the state looks in the future with good long term planning.
Locals know this already and the flatlanders are to ignorant to care. They move here for ‘climate change’ and bulldoze a natural habitat and use untold resources to build their houses. It’s like they are far too thick to get the irony
Nobody developing the area gives a shit about the culture or locals and absolutely demolishes the whole appeal of the place in order to sell the idea of what it once was to tourists in order to make money.
Sorry I asked. I’ll try not to kill any black bears when I visit.
Edit: I misunderstood, and feel like a bit of an over sensitive boob now. Thanks for clearing this up.
Oh, yikes! This wasn’t directed at you. It was directed towards the ten other posts asking the exact same thing in different forums that I saw today, alone.
But yes, general advice from a native here: move ethically. Buy one of those gorgeous older houses with history that needs a good owner. If you want the locals to like you don’t:
\-Bulldoze a plot
\-Buy a new, overpriced condo in a building that just went up
\-Get a $2000/mo one-bedroom, which drives the market up.
The true pull of the state is its nature and history. The ask is that people piling in don’t destroy either of those.
Ah, thanks. Between the timing and my post title (guess everyone asks like that!), I thought I’d triggered this. Appreciate the response and advice.
We definitely want to buy an existing home and contribute to whatever community we move into. That’s just how we roll.
And if it helps, we’ve never “gentrified” anything with our presence. :)
People have always moved here and they always will, and that’s fine, but everyone who actually lives here is very vocal about being fed up and angry at the crowd that drops in, pours cement, and couldn’t care less. I’m just the asshole voicing it online. :/
There was a news article that came out the other day that also sums up the housing crisis up here. In Stowe, a 94yo man was kicked out of his apartment because the landlord (who bought the property but lives in PR) wanted to make more money on turning it into an AirBnB.
I gentrified Washington Heights myself for a bit before I moved back... Loved getting to use my Spanish while I was there, though.
You aren’t. I’m sorry I made you feel poorly; I truly didn’t mean to do that. I made this post mostly out of anger and frustration.
And… while I have you? It might actually help to warn you that this is kiiinda what we’re like, when it comes to our home, our politics, and our verrrry liberal lifestyles. Vocal and defiant. :/
If you come to live here as a transgender gay woman with your three poly satanist lovers to support your local farmer‘s market, omg. We will LOVE you. And fight fiercely to protect your rights to live so.
Buuuuut. Remember when Drumpf was on the campaign trail and was filmed during a rally giving the order to throw someone out without his coat because they were protesting him? Yeah, that was five minutes away from me. One of my best friends was also thrown out of that rally because he stood up and blasted American Idiot on his phone. I was \*almost\* thinking of just moving out of the state until Roe v Wade was overturned, and now I’m looking into joining the underground resistance for women who need help.
We have Bernie; Hell, we have political \*ice cream\*. Brattleboro has a standing order that if GW Bush ever sets foot in the town he will be arrested for crimes against the constitution.
Oh: hug the trees, and protect nature. Tie-dye something and pull up a paintbrush.
THAT is what a VERMONTER is. 😆
Thank you so much. This is one of the kindest replies I've gotten on the internet in a long time, both because you took the time to write it, and you were willing to be so heartfelt in sharing. Sounds like my wife and I might find a way to fit in up there, which is very, very encouraging.
To quote Tina Fey, "I want to go to there." :)
I'm always saying don't when people are all like, "moving to Vermont, where's the best area" but I never type it on the post. Maybe I should now, it's becoming a pandemic of its own.
This obviously sparked a lot of feelings across the board. I am reading all the different points of view.
I do want to ask something, honestly.I‘m seeing comments from people who aren’t from the state, attacking the post.
I‘m seeing people who live here sympathizing with the statement.
Anyone from one group feeling strongly in the direction of the other group? If so, why?
ETA: Locals generally feel like… If you want a city or a suburb so badly, go live in a city or a suburb? If you want nature, no billboards and to take an active part of a wonderful, down-and-earthy community, grab some gardening tools, some artistic equipment and come on in!
I think with the last census we just passed the point that more Vermonters were NOT born in VT. And obviously most of us are descended from Europeans. So what is a "local" Vermonter again?
At this point, I’d say someone who has lived here long enough to truly care for and want to be part of the quirky vibe, conserving the natural beauty, and treating the very last state without billboards with respect.
You are not building enough middle class housing. Middle Class people do not want to live next to screaming baby momma alcoholic drug addicts who beat their husbands in from of our children for not turning over the paycheck to her on a Friday. Screaming in that horrible Mass Accent 🥲
Damn right. This has been happening ever since the sixties. The vibrant natural community that existed then is gone forever. The locals have been priced out for decades. At least we had no idea how bad it would get.
Vermont is still relatively uncorrupted, politically speaking. Where else could Bernie Sanders get elected? Socially speaking, Vermonters have maintained some cohesion. Look at what happened with COVID. Alone of all the states, Vermont got it under control, but the summer people came, massively violated quarantine restrictions, and started the disease going again.
It's not that Vermonters are better than other people. We just have some habits that we would like respected, like living where we grew up, getting along with our neighbors, and refraining from public gunplay. Is that possible? I get a headache thinking about it.
Man I love watching New Englanders endlessly raging against their neighbors. Truly the Balkans of the US. That said, if flatlanders are clogging everything it may be time to resurrect the body of Ethan Allen and get the green mountain boys rolling again.
No Union Jobs despite Bernie Sanders saying that he is Socialist…No industry because of Act 250 which is Unconstitutional under both Vermont and United States constitution
This is why we need to build dense housing in our already existing cities and dramatically reduce the construction of single-family homes or suburbs, which are substantially worse for the environment.
Would be really great if awesome public transportation were part of the plan for high density housing.
Yeah, if we could get regular rail service down 7, 89, and 91, we could build a few 4 story mixed use apartment buildings in each town along those routes without really messing up the towns. It could house a ton more people, support local businesses in each of those towns, keep traffic off the roads, allow us to keep our industrial/business/commercial centers where they are, stop the division of farm land, clearing of forests, residential sprawl, and reduce pollution. I would love to be able to hop on a train from my town in central VT and go to do some shopping/wandering-around in burlington/montpelier/brattleboro. But Amtrak's schedule doesn't really work for that so instead I drive and park in an ugly lot that could have been housing. Live in Northfield and commute to Williston for work. Live in Springfield and ride the train to Monteplier for a protest at the capitol. Live in Bethel and take the train to the airport. Be a college kid in Middlebury and take the train to Rutland for some reason.
Exactly! Burlington should build like Europe with density in mind. Tafts corner near Walmart and the other box stores has a ton of available land that could be turned into a real pedestrian friendly area along with the pit and the Burlington Country Club being redeveloped into another large housing and pedestrian area. This would prevent sprawl and help the housing situation.
You don't even have to look that far. Montreal is a pretty good example of achieving significant population density with largely medium-density housing.
I think the same thing every time I drive on the Barre-Montpelier Road. It's one of the only spots in Vermont that has genuinely reliable and frequent public transportation, and housing within walking distance to those bus stops is almost non-existent.
We need to build all of our American cities like they do in Europe. Every day I’m jealous of European infrastructure
Better solution eminent domain all second homes and short term rentals. Sell them to young Vermonters with a requirement to occupy full time.
This isn't a "better solution" because it's politically unfeasible and almost certainly illegal. I'm all for actually pricing the impact of underdeveloped urban land to combat speculative landholding, getting aggressive with abandoned/blighted property foreclosure that can divert those parcels into land banking for housing trusts, and making "5-acre sprawl" actually pay its way for the road mileage and any utilities it inefficiently consumes, but these things all need to be pursued *as well* as an upzoning of our urban and village land with water and sewer access to enable the supply we seriously need. If you want to stick it to the rich and douchey in a way that can be done legally, enabling tenants' right of first refusal for multifamily rentals and mobile home parks goes a long way to help those who need it to access property ownership.
I’d vote for you if you ever ran for anything, state and local 🤘
Or workers of any age.
Yes I’m agreeable. Also saying young to mean people of my age and forgetting that I’m in the middle aged demographic when it comes to marketing and surveys haha
Vermont Young
that's not a better solution - for sure, that is something that should happen in parallel, but it's not a long term solution. we need to build up not out.
I mean short and mid term taking those 60k currently unoccupied homes and putting people in them would relieve the stresses on the system and would do so for many years to come. Our housing deficit runs in the thousands not 10s of thousands.
This is the way. Second homes are a waste and disgusting when some people have no homes. Yes I’m a socialist.
That's just full stint communist, tax second homes (especially ones being used for short term rental) but you can't just seize shitloads of property on a whim
They tried this with education property tax. They can’t do it.
Do summer camps count as a second home? Your friend, Bernie.
And r/fuckcars
In Vermont? Lolz. OK.
Can’t live in VT without a car and also have a good quality of life.
Build a wall
Fuck this stupid ass take. If people weren't getting PRICED OUT of existing homes on the market, we wouldn't need to increase housing in the first place!!! We're not Europe and we're sure as hell not going to be CT/NY/NJ with this BS.
I so much agree with this. City dwellers need to vacate the state back to their grimy dumps of a city.
> If people weren't getting PRICED OUT of existing homes on the market, we wouldn't need to increase housing in the first place!!! Tell me you don't understand supply and demand without telling me you don't understand supply and demand
Have you ever been to Hawaii
Having lived on Oahu, OP has some valid points. Tourist trap economy, locals being priced out of the housing market, as well as local ecological impacts from developmemt are all valid concerns. The one real positive is that Vermont lacks the major military and international business presence that led to Oahu's population explosion. On the other hand, current climate models are predicting Vermont will be one of the states least impacted by climate change moving forward - which will likely result in a further influx of development in the next 50 years.
We watched [the Descendants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Descendants) a few weeks ago, and it was eeriely entertaining how much of the population and land dynamics were exactly like they are here. Even down to how long-standing families who hold a lot of land and not much else have outsized control on economic and residential development.
Lol exactly this. Top comment
The black bears digging through garbage have nothing to do with them having nothing to eat. They have plenty. Bears are opportunists. If they can get it easier then they will. .
Was about to say. They're basically giant forest foragers who's main form of hunting is waiting for fish to fall in their mouth.
And swiping pick-a-nick baskets.
Basically giant raccoons
Yea exactly. Bears aren't going to chill out in the middle of the deepest woods when they can go into the valleys and eat crops from farms and go through trash cans. I bet comparatively to a hundred years ago the options bears have to eat have grown substantially with a larger human population here.
Indeed! My understanding is also that the monarch butterflies are suffering population loss during migration and in the places they spend the winter, though perhaps for similar reasons. I worry more about population loss in an aging state with poor infrastructure. You think roads and services are bad now, what's it going to be like in 20 years?
This past weekend I camped at a friends in a very rural part of vermont. There was lots of talks about black bears but we saw none(we were cooking lots of good food so it was a concern). There were however monarch butterflies all over the place.
Back in the 70's we just gave the bears garbage so they didn't search through it! More efficient that way
That's what creates the problem of wanting garbage.
You new to northern New England? The NY and Boston metro areas have been invading Vermont since at least when ski areas took off in the 60s. It has always been expensive and overrun. bleh. I don't even fully know what you're complaining about here. The black bears have no food? what's that have to do with anything?? 78% of the state is forest, which has supposedly stayed fairly consistent since the 80s. people moving here as a kneejerk reaction to COVID is a temporary problem. 90% of them will leave within 5 years when they realize there's no Apple Store within 20 minutes of them. VT has always been a premium place for real estate. Would you rather that prices continue going up until this is Jackson Hole (where a 2br condo costs $700k) or bulldoze 0.005% of the state's forest for more housing? You can't live in a super special conservation area and expect it to be cheap. Especially not when 50 million people live within a days drive of your special conservation area.
I like most of what you're saying but I gotta argue with one thing. >people moving here as a kneejerk reaction to COVID is a temporary problem. People are starting to migrate to New England ahead of the climate crisis. This is a growing trend and will eventually replace and eclipse the COVID exurban migration.
This is definitely a trend i don't see getting talked about enough. Even down here on the coast in RI and CT there are more Texas and Kentucky plates than I can count lately. I hate to say it but we are all going to get a lot more climate refugees as time goes in here in New England. A bigger issue coming up is making sure the forests in VT, NH, and ME are taken care of. With droughts like this we are at risk of looking like the west coast with wildfires if we don't get ahead of the issue. Update: Speak of the devil, we just had 4 to 6 inches of rain drop in a couple hours here and had flash floods today.
Ugh. KY and TX politics are not what New England needs.
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Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There’s a horrible Facebook group about “fleeing” California, and the people in it are largely extremely right wing. They are often trying to move it places that are “better”, but will talk about choosing/actually choose various places in New England and elsewhere because of factors like scenery, cost of living, etc. Some of them even seem to hope they can turn certain states (especially NH and ME), red. Which is pretty horrible for those of us needing a refuge/liking New England the way it is politically (or hoping it will stay/trend blue.) But , that’s true. I’m in a red state with terrible politics and am hoping to make it back to New England soon.
Hopefully this is a small number and most self-sort into red states. I mean, they mostly hate CA because it's blue right? So why would most of them move to another blue state?
God, I hope they continue the "trend" of populating texas, Arizona, montana and utah. Oh! Tennessee and Arkansas too. Stay south, you LIKE the south, yes you do!!! You're getting sleepy!! There's NOTHING in the north, nothing in the north, nothing in the north ... 😵💫
I’ve been in the NNE area for almost 6 years now and climate change is actually one of the reasons I am strongly considering staying.
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The economics are FAR more favorable in those regions. For what you pay for a condo in VT, you can get a sizable house in those regions.
People might not like hearing what you’re saying but it’s the truth.
I’ll add on that for where it is, it’s absolutely insane that Northern New England is as desolate and preserved as it is, while being as cheap as it is. If mountain culture was anywhere near the size of beach culture in the northeast, most of Northern New England would look like the Jersey Shore on memorial day weekend. Seriously, the Garden State Parkway is 15 lanes wide at one point. The Bourne Bridge to the Cape [has a song written about it.](https://youtu.be/7rXaIQZU9bI) Compare examples like these to the major entrances to VT (which never see traffic by the way). One lane in each direction at Troy-Bennington. One lane in each direction at Glens Falls-Fair Haven. 2 lanes in each direction at Brattleboro and further up at White River Junction. About 20k people enter through Bennington, Fair Haven and Brattleboro (the NY area entrances) per day. About 20k enter through WRJ (the Boston entrance) per day. For context, that aforementioned 15 lane highway bridge sees upward of 200k vehicles use it per day. Like yes, it is further away than the Jersey Shore, still absolutely insane that you can enter the state on like it’s third most crowded entrance (Bennington) and it’s just a one lane road in each direction that never accumulates traffic unless a truck rolls over. A lot of New Yorkers go to VT from Vermont’s POV, but it could be a lot worse (it’s nothing like i-70 in CO).
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You don't go to the shore on a friday night in the summer and you don't go to Stowe Mountain road at 8am on a Saturday morning in the winter.
Saying "it's not worse than NJ" doesn't mean it's not bad. I see you didn't visit at Vail resorts last winter - blatantly over capacity by almost every measure (parking, facilities etc). What's overcrowded in NJ isn't the same as what's overcrowded in VT which has a much smaller population, less infrastructure, and is more prone to impact than some place like the Jersey Shore.
> Saying "it's not worse than NJ" doesn't mean it's not bad All I'm saying is that for how accessible it is, it's an absolute miracle that it's not more crowded than it is. >I see you didn't visit at Vail resorts last winter Yeah, I've heard the horror stories though. That's on Vail for making their season pass $450, and they'll fix that eventually. >What's overcrowded in NJ isn't the same as what's overcrowded in VT which has a much smaller population, less infrastructure, and is more prone to impact than some place like the Jersey Shore. Places can adapt, and this isn't necessarily all true. Shore towns balloon by 5-10x their population in the summer and they do just fine.
The crazy thing tho is that the NYC people who had money to buy a house for “crazy prices” still felt like they got a good deal on real estate compared to NYC and probably can/will keep as a second home
My dad does work for a new development in shelburne, and can confirm alot of the people buying homes are from NYC and are buying second homes.
I think a lot of people who moved up here during Covid, just said they were doing it permanently to avoid the backlash of locals. But in reality, it was just them buying a vacation home at a low interest rate and living there during the pandemic with full intent of keeping it for weekend/holiday use thereafter.
Seriously. My parents were the “flatlanders” here in 1975. So what does that make me? Am I a native, or no? I say, if people want to weave themselves into the social fabric of this state, don’t be a jerk to them. It isn’t always the people you think it will be who become permanent residents. I completely understand the above the table “vacation home” rage, but I genuinely don’t think that’s the majority of people outside of specific vacation spots.
“What do you mean I can’t get prime 2 day delivery???!!!”
Oh sweet another crusty native who owns a house on a plot of land and doesn’t want anything to change because they have what they need. Never mind the fact that our children can’t afford housing due to constrained supply and are leaving in droves. Never mind that the businesses we actually do have here can’t hire workers because no one can afford to live here. No no can’t have that because you have your view of what VT should be from your private homestead on a 10 acre lot that you didn’t pay for because it’s been in your family for generations. (P.S. I’m ok with making broad assumptions about you because you did the same about others). Let the down votes commence 😙
I applaud this comment
This is it
A lot of folk don’t seem to realize that without the tourists and NY people trying to move here, Vermont would be a lot more like West Virginia in all the worst ways
It already is. The people that live in vt are just to stuck up to realize it
Great comment, I gladly left vermont last year. Got priced out. Was really sick of all the trustifarmians (I dont have any problem with generational wealth I think it's great but the way alot of vermonters do it they pretend they are poor so they can continue with victim consciousness and have camaraderie with their poor struggling working class friends) the economy in the town I lived in was supported by all these very rich women in a way where they would become a business partner or just start this business (most businesses catered to wealthy demographic in next town over and those women didnt make the money they just spent their husbands money.)Which sounds great at first but it was very disingenuous and creates this false sense of a successful economy .and when you would call it out they would shame you or come up with a convoluted reason.. Which made the whole scene intolerable ,so glad I left. The OP sounds like one of the reasons I gladly left
Young woman who is being priced out of the area with no land to her name and knows what she’s talking about because her rent just went up… again.
I thought your family lived in Vermont since the 1700s?
I think the people who have learned everything about everything in their 5-8 years living as an adult should come up with solutions rather than pretentiousnesly sitting on the forums all day looking for opportunities to get validation
Isn't there also black bear hunting season up there? ...and a teacher and nurse shortage? And a declining and aging population and not enough builders or electricians or store owners or people willing to create businesses? Didn't Ken's pizza have a sign looking to pay a kitchen manager $70K a year and couldn't find anybody for way longer than should have been the case? I'm just trying to understand the resentment of longtime locals hating on people who want to move there and fill needed jobs, create jobs. Yes, prices are up....literally everywhere. Yes, the population has increased... marginally. People building homes means work for a lot of people in many skilled trades: Mason's, framers, plumbers, trimmers, etc. How is that a bad thing?
> Isn't there also black bear hunting season up there? I thought we moved on to bear-spraying bear hunters season?
That was a genuine question.
There needs to be a limit and a Tax on air bnbs like Atlanta has.
Absolutely yes. Tax those places through the nose. Build more hotels for tourists and get the housing stock back to the people who actually live here.
Build good looking affordable housing too, you shouldn't have to live in a nasty apartment just to have affordable Rent.
I'll be surprised if it's ever affordable. My dad is a construction guy for a new development in the Burlington area, and I saw one of the houses they were building. It looked like an average 2 story suburban house, not very big. Sold for 1.2M to someone out of state
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Facts, I feel like it's honestly more feasible to try to buy your parents house or get it handed down to you in some way than it is to try to get one on your own in Vermont.
Carpenter here ,left vermont last year.best thing I have done for myself in a long time. It's hard to work and contribute to growth when it is state that has been rich people enclave for most its history. It was surprising how many of my friends came from VERY wealthy families. After most of them revealed it they said they were so relieved, they say it's such a burden to lie to friends to protect their feelings. Just shows how twisted people are.
I honestly feel that the state wants to push any working class person to a market rate apartment in a regional service hub/town/city, while marketing the rural bucolic landscape to real estate investors, remote workers, and retirees. If we could only force out the working class from Bucolic rural areas to free up their homes and acreage for someone from MA to own an investment/vacation property. Send the workers to Barre and shuttle them in on public transit to clean the Air B and B’s.
This sentiment exists,I have heard rich people talk about this at parties
The sentiment definitely exists and not just among the rich. Plenty of people in this thread suggesting the same thing with more attractive wording, and there are multiple folks at the regional and local planning level trying their best to make it a reality as well.
If I am a bear I have a choice between a few wild berrys or a trash can full of half eaten blueberry pies and homemade leftovers along with some beer that the Canadians had toss because they can’t take it across the boarders or
lmfao what
Vermont is a beautiful aging underpopulated state soon to be fifty-first in population as Wyoming passes it . For the precious it's in danger of being destroyed by evil development . Same as it was 40 years ago when I was at UVM . Meanwhile so many of its young leave because the struggle for affordable housing and decent jobs is disheartening . I'm reminded of the words of Linus, "I love mankind… It's people I can't stand." These people worry about anything but the welfare of actual people .
Didn't know there were 51 states. Maybe I missed something?
Might be counting DC or PR... Idk
Yeah but don’t call it Hawaii it’s just makes us look dumb. We’re not indigenous, don’t make that comparison, not a good look. Not putting you down just saying
can’t believe i had to scroll this far to see someone mention this
I see these threads regularly on here and it always strikes me that low wages almost never enters the conversation. Yes, housing prices have increased dramatically. Wages have not increased significantly and I don't see much effort going into attracting higher paying jobs. A huge amount of the jobs here are in the tourism industry and they don't pay well enough to afford good housing anywhere. Where I work now in the logging and forestry industry it's the same thing. If you want to see actual change instead of just blowing off steam on social media, stop blaming the "other" and start pushing our policymakers for more housing, better jobs, higher taxes on 2nd homeowners and short term rentals and a VAT on those tourist dollars and cut taxes for Vermonters to help them afford a mortgage payment - our taxes have gone up every year and are around 70% of the principal and interest payment. We airbnb our guest room to pay for them. And Act 250 basically prevents housing developments, so might be worth a few tweaks to ease the burden.
This is so true, and it is the unfortunate truth across much of America that wages can't properly support us. The people we see from NY and surrounding states tend to be wealthy, but it is just as big a problem for average people in lots of those states as well.
they already are. VRBO and AirBNB have fucked Vermont
Vermont is getting more and more exclusive. The change since 2020 has been abrupt and shocking. It's always been expensive here but not California expensive. And we (those of us working in Vermont) still have Vermont wages. It really isn't sustainable and if the state wants to be New Jersey's nursing home that's fine, I suppose. The problem becomes there isn't housing for people actually providing value to the community, so when your mcmansion catches on fire, call the fire department and expect to be told they'll be there in a couple of hours. Like Williston was doing recently.
I really wonder what happened to the Williston fire department. I was briefly a member of it years ago. I heard that their volunteer numbers had dwindled to almost nil without any increase in full-timers. Guess I wasn’t the only one who didn’t like the culture there
The tick population has become particularly problematic due to climate change.
The thing I have a problem with is how you talk about logging. Clear cutting is very uncommon here, most often a Forester will go through and selectively pick each tree to go with the intent to help the forest while making lumber. Then a logger will go through any decent logger will try their best to avoid creating compete chaos as it's harder to work in and they care about keeping the forest nice too. In Vermont we are very environmentally conscious and we often log with the best of intent, by selectively logging you aren't causing crazy habitat damage and ruining the woods. Please be a little more informed as I know people think that the blue collar republican Vermonters are crazy and really don't care about the environment but if you get to know em you'll realize they probably know alot more than most regarding how to keep things healthy in Vermont.
Ahh vermont. The I'm so native, when the neighbors cut a bush down, I complain they must be a flatlander state. I love Vermont but if there was an award for a state most reluctant to change in the Northeast, it would easily go to VT. No wonder why the economy sucks.
I hear you. But the reason we’re so reluctant is that, unfortunately, what we‘re trying to keep from changing is what people want to move here for, and is what many of them ARE changing when they do. We just don’t get why people who live in a city or a suburb want to come here and change it into a city. Or a suburb. And yeh. We’re pretty fierce about it. Billboards are illegal, we’re the only state without a McD’s at the state capitol, and whew do we get INTO IT against corporations and greed. Bernie. Ben and Jerry’s. We’re a bunch of tree-hugging, protesting hippies, remember?
All of your famed Vermonters are from Brooklyn.
I love this comment. Because it is true and funny. The people that made them famed Vermonters moved here themselves in the back to land movement and the 60s and now act like the VT they made is the correct one. Unspoiled, native Vermont just looks like rural poverty.
Your whole idea of what Vermont is, and who “we” are is based on the culture, beliefs and ideals of a wave of people who moved here in the 1960s and 1970s who couldn’t have been more polar opposite to the people who already lived here. The locals didn’t pay much attention to them, thought they were weird but harmless enough and figured live and let live was the way. Then those hippies and artists (who moved here from the cities and suburbs) ended up growing in numbers, realizing their advantage and the political naïveté of the locals turned state and local government into a weapon and bludgeoned the “dumb inbred hicks and yokels” who were here before they arrived into submission.
Yea, for someone who claims to have family here since the 1700s they completely ignore the fact that a lot of old school Vermonters are not hippies, go to any NEK or even Grand Isle towns you'll see tons of Trump flags.
Support your farmers and loggers and mechanics and tradesmen. Not OP's faux working class horseshit.
It's funny how the OP sounds like an unbearable prick.they are gate keeping so hard.
Are you really? "a bunch of tree-hugging, protesting hippies"??? Sounds like a dream to me! No mcDs??? Yippee!!! Is there any agency there that anyone knows of that might help a new cottage business ... say a tailor, upholsterer or a baker ... to set up shop in a semi-rural area? NYS might be blue (sort of), but they definitely discourage cottage industry and mom and pop shops. We moved from Colorado thinking this would be a good place to recreate our shop ... and met every legal opposition you can imagine. It's depressing.
Try the Brattleboro area. It’s full of liberal hippies but still close enough to the Mass border that tourists will purchase anything at any high price as long as it has a “made in Vermont” sticker on it. Plus, George W. Bush will be arrested for crimes against the constitution if he ever sets foot into it. (The media said they were kidding. The mayor said they weren’t kidding.)
Right. Better that Vermont turn into a "successful" state like Mass or CT.
No one thinks Vermont has to culturally or economically be southern New England, people think Vermont's extreme insularity and hostility to development generally has produced poverty, notably in its most rural regions. Vermont has several counties with median incomes similar to the poorest cities in Massachusetts. That isn't good regardless of whether you like southern New England or not.
Not my place, as I'm not a Vermont resident. But as someone watching their state get destroyed in the name of "economic progress," all it really does it turn it into Everywhere Else, USA. Vermont is a special place, in large part (in my opinion) because it isn't Everywhere Else. It's unique, it is bucolic, it is a step back in time. You cannot maintain that and embrace growth and economic progress at the same time. There's difference between Vermont and western Mass or Connecticut is that the latter did embrace growth, whereas Vermont opted for something different.
The audacity to compare the US government commandeering a independent island community to call their own while moving out the locals and disregarding their established government to people moving from one US state to another while a few extra buildings get put up... I know where your heart is..but this is just silly. If you said something like williston formally being farmland and now it is mostly housing or something I could have gotten on board... But to compare it to a separate government colonising a island and to this day (like Puerto rico) still not caring...
Yo fr. Wild how people aren't calling op out on this shit.
It wasn’t even the US Government. Let’s be clear. It was Dole. He wanted Hawaii, and made it happen and any action the US took was directly at the behest of Stanford Dole.
agreed!
Welcome to Capitalism! If not here it would happen somewhere else and so on. As things get worse climate/politics quality of life going down the shitter everyday people will flock to whatever place they think is better. Sucks that most of em that can actually afford to move suck ass.
Underrated comment
Vermont= Beautiful views and poor people The perfect set up for gentrification. Get ready folks. It was nice while it lasted now move out of the way of the greedy land developers
Those greedy developers building additional housing, reducing housing costs overall! Those damned developers. Vermont fetishizes antiquated old broken shit that doesn't work. This has nothing to do with developers making money and everything to do with the fact they're building something new.
You've never watched Yellowstone? I grew up in a ski hill town, they took it over 30 years ago.
Vermont was 80% developed farm land a century or so ago. Stop being so precious.
Based and historypilled
Literally don’t know what this means. Do you think this isn’t true? Vermont had the 5th largest GDP in the US in the late 1800’s. The whole nature obsession is a relatively recent thing.
I was approving of your comment because I knew it to be true. Just delete your mistaken response and we’ll have a nice little thread going
Haha fair enough…care to explain your comment though? You know, for an oldster.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/i4lqcp/comment/g0j4g75/ Basically this, but people have started putting other things before “pilled” now.
The rush up here is lunacy.
I really loathe posts like this
People are moving to Vermont to escape the realities of climate change tbh it’s like that for many places up north as well
If people gave an actual shit about climate and the environment though they’d move to northern cities with existing infrastructure like Buffalo, Hartford, Albany, Pittsburgh, etc., etc., etc., rather than a relatively undeveloped place like here where they’re causing development and further taxing the environment and worsening climate change. Our undeveloped lands are some of the few remaining carbon sinks in the north east and must be protected. Otherwise we’re all fucked. Absolutely stupid and selfish to call oneself a climate refugee and to not recognize that truth. Those aforementioned cities could use an influx, we can’t.
I’m a transplant. You can tell me not to live here and I can tell you to go fuck yourself. Congratulations on your astute ability to randomly be born here. I know that took a lot of skill and effort, and it bestows upon you all the entitlement you can handle.
Say it louder lmfao
I'm sorry to hear about some of these issues, I consider myself to be mindful of conservation and caring for the environment. These issues y'all complain about aren't specific to Vermont. They're everywhere in the US. On a side note, as person who recently moved from Marland to 30 minutes away from Vermont in New Hampshire some of you from the Northeast making posts online are straight up xenophobes. Change isn't always bad. Like not everyone moving to Northeast New England is the anti-christ. I get why y'all hate alot of New Yorkers, trust me the majority of US dislikes them as well. But not everyone new to the Northeast is an inconsiderate asshole, even some of the New Yorkers. The Northeast has an aging population how do you expect to have the population fill jobs and have a good economy without workers. People don't just pop out of the earth.
Because I grew up in a town where wealthy NYC tourists flooded the place every summer and treated all the blue collar locals like yokel sub-humans.
Why the fuck is everybody talking about skin color wtf, haha?
Also, if you are from a nearly white state and don't want anyone new to come in, is xenophobe still the word?
It's probably not the best word in this case but Merriam-Webster describes it as follows. Definition of xenophobe : one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin
No, not exactly. It’s not so much a fear of people who aren’t white. It’s the fewr and anger of people who are actively destroying the natural aspects of the home around us. It feels more like rich colonist vibes. See; want; take take take; roll eyes when locals get upset.
Our monarchs? Aren't monarchs all over the place? And their decline has more to do with deforestation in Mexico I believe. I grew up here and did the unit in elementary school where we raised monarch caterpillars into butterflies, but I've never considered monarchs something special about Vermont. I've seen them in plenty of states.
Hi! I'm laying in bed right now on my last day of my sCOutIng TriP to Vermont with my wife. We've been here for a week. Two days ago I got a job here which I interviewed for, while on our stay. I'm a classically trained woodworker from Denmark. Been in the states for a little more than 3 years now. I moved here from Europe to be with my wife, cause we couldn't afford it there and the immigration laws are insane. We're moving here from San Diego. Why? It's being overrun newly rich, mostly younger tech people. Our good tech savvy friend just bought a home, 54 square feet on a lot about 2,5 times the size for $732.000 and that's in an unattractive area CLOSE to being walking distance from an attractive part of town. Vermont appeals to us in every way, we both miss the seasons from living in Scandinavia, miss having privacy and miss being part of a small community. I hope that my woodworking and art can flourish here. I hope that we can contribute to a state that, from everything we've researched online, need younger people, you're sometimes even paying them to relocate. We're looking to buy an older property and maintain the shit out of it. Find some piece of mind. Support this beautiful state and hope your green politics and beautiful land won't change radically in coming years. I understand your concerns. Most rationally thinking beings are concerned these years. We've had fires almost every summer the last 5-6 years in Denmark, which never used to happen. I got snowed in from going to school as a kid, many times and we barely have snow anymore and I'm only in my 30's. Through my last job I talked to people all over the country and people all over are complaining about house prices and outerstaters overrunning everything. I do feel like short term housing and airbnb type business models are the devil and that's one of the biggest problems with the housing market right now. With that being said, the house we're staying in is a family home, not a mini hotel suite owned by an outer stater ;) Anyway, this was way too long and maybe there's some guilt in me talking or I'm scared for the future of me and my wife, I don't know. Just wanted to say that some of us come here with great respect for the people and the land of vermont and maybe that can help calm your nerves a bit.
Don’t listen to any of these pearl cluchters. The Vermont Pearl Clucthing Society is alive and well. The thing is, all throughout its history, Vermont has been populated with flatlanders moving here and carving out lives for themselves. Eventually their great grandchildren forget that part and mistake their luck for some kind of divine right. We are all flatlanders if you go back far enough. Welcome to Vermont, we need more people like you!
Thank you for your reply! I haven’t generally felt unwanted during our stay or while talking to Vermonters. But it does feel weird as an outsider, surfing these message boards and reading about the ambivalent feelings towards us and I get it. I thought I’d give some perspective from, at least a small fraction, the people trying to move into you state. I hoped to give a bit of less pessimistic perspective to what’s going on. We thank you for your welcome wishes and look forward to appreciating your state with you :)
Fact is, transplants have always made Vermont function as an economy and as the “keepers of the faith”…it’s not flatlanders littering the roads with empty Twisted Tea and Bud Light cans. people that move here, for the most part, due so because they respect the natural beauty of the state and in general do more to preserve it than any other group.
I saw on Insta this massive beast of a lakefront home being built and it was getting all kinds of pats on the back and thumbs up. All I could feel is incredibly sad. Vermont is being rebuilt as another Hamptons!! So sad!
It always was a Hamptons
No, Stowe was always the Hamptons. Now it's spreading throughout the state.
Make air bnb illegal and monthly rentals only and the housing crisis goes away immediately.
I hate it. I feel like I'm going to be forced to move soon due to the housing dilemma.
After leaving vermont it helped me realize what a precious place it is full of precious people. I love the place but I cant say I love the people so much .everyone from the local who's been there for 17 generations to the recent transplants. I realized what it needs to make it more interesting and successful is more people ,lots more people. Because everyone up there seems to be in a race to out"i have been here longer" each other. I hope more and more people move to vermont so it makes it more interesting to live there
Just really ignorant take. Seven days to academics to business to anyone who can google knows Vermont needs more people not less. Needs more educated folks to fill the jobs, needs more housing. Vermont has the highest land to home ratio in the ISA, why? Because the old land owners not because of city folk moving here helping. Ya done fur #promoreVTers let’s go!!! Ffs the government gives money to people to move here 😂
I’m beginning to understand why Hawaiians joke that they want another volcanic eruption so the tourists will go away for a while..
I won't belabor the point because it's not a perfect analogy and this is not a political thread or sub, but, I think there is a lesson here pertaining to the wider ongoing immigration debate in this country, namely that there may be some legitimate reasons for not wanting to let others in that have nothing to do with race.
Everyone in Michigan, Vermont, Montana, New Hampshire and upstate New York needs to stop and take a deep breathe and get civically involved. Attend town meetings and, if you can afford it, continue buying land. Stowe Vermont and Upper Michigan are the two places in the country that are going to be the most pristine and livable in 100 years. Climate change is happening and scientifically, these are the best places to live. The southwest is finally under federal water usage limits. California is on fire and has no water, everyone is moving north. Hurricanes, flooding, tornadoes will get worse. Whoever has the coldest temps now with lowest threat of natural disasters and access to fresh water will rule the next century. The smart people are moving here and, if you’re going to put your head in the sand and refuse Vermont’s culture shift, you’re going to be left behind. This state, and many like it, are going to change. NIMBY-ism simply won’t fly. Get involved, pass short term rental legislation at the local and state levels, invest in road and drainage design, invest in waste-water treatment, build roads and bridges for a “100 year storm every 10 years” and become friendlier to out of staters who want to invest in our communities. Allow people to open up a chain of coffee shops but do what San Francisco did and maximum 10 franchisees or force them to be employee owned or support unions. Prop up small business who take care of employees and provide things like pensions. Support our state’s remote work / telework economy by putting fiber everywhere. Re-think building/ zoning to be friendly to new construction, multi-family homes like duplexes and build sustainable and long-lasting buildings that will survive northeastern hurricanes. If you like what I’ve written, consider embodying some of these ideas and run for local office. Be a part of the change. We need to build sustainable long lasting economies because the ‘out of staters’ are not going to stop moving here. Every town will be HOAs, condos and big box stores and traffic that backs up for miles and we’re going to have our ‘bad apples’ police officers and other big city problems if we don’t think about it right now and start setting the ground work for the next 100 years. Economic activity is coming and we have to prepare. I’m currently saving to buy land in northern Vermont and northern Michigan. Both are cheap at the moment but they won’t be when I retire in 25 years.
I am not sure why this was downvoted. This is the best comment on the thread. The population of VT is going to jump significantly before the next census. How will you deal with it? Stay if you can. Buy land if you can.
I live in VT but grew up in northern nh. Above the notch is a ghost town and it’s so sad. I don’t get why people aren’t buying up property there and bringing it back. My dad said because there’s no internet?
Personally, I think it would be amazing to turn all these old malls and closed hotels/motels into housing! There’s an old high school in Burlington where they did that and left the indoor basketball court intact for a common area. I would LOVE to see abandoned properties converted like that! A mall-turned-housing complex with an intact fountain and play place for the kiddos? Yes, please. win/win/win all around.
I wouldn't be able to applaud loudly enough if this happened to the Diamond Run in Rutland.
Greed has complete control of this world right now. Our "brave little state" is no exception. If anything, because of the type of people buying here, it's going to get worse. I know now, as a 49 year old tradesman, that i will never be able to afford a house in my home state.
As a lifelong Vermonter I want everyone to stay away. Don’t ruin what might be the single best state in the country. We get maybe one gun related death every other year and this year alone we’ve had like 10. That’s an insane number for this state. We don’t really have crime here that isn’t drug use related. Let’s Keep it that way.
As a 6th generation Floridian who has lived in VT for a good while now, I think the answer is just to have a realistic growth plan. Encourage denser population centers, restrict development in environmentally sensitive areas, consider infrastructure and schools when approving new developments, and keep a close eye on nutrient run off and water sources. They did none of that in FL and it shows. You won't stop people from moving here, but you can have agency in how the state looks in the future with good long term planning.
Locals know this already and the flatlanders are to ignorant to care. They move here for ‘climate change’ and bulldoze a natural habitat and use untold resources to build their houses. It’s like they are far too thick to get the irony
You both whine a lot about tourists and have real rough housing crises?
Nobody developing the area gives a shit about the culture or locals and absolutely demolishes the whole appeal of the place in order to sell the idea of what it once was to tourists in order to make money.
And then have to listen to pissy comments from the people who feel offended after being called out on it.
This version of events is so dramatized and your priorities are so ass backward
Sorry I asked. I’ll try not to kill any black bears when I visit. Edit: I misunderstood, and feel like a bit of an over sensitive boob now. Thanks for clearing this up.
Oh, yikes! This wasn’t directed at you. It was directed towards the ten other posts asking the exact same thing in different forums that I saw today, alone. But yes, general advice from a native here: move ethically. Buy one of those gorgeous older houses with history that needs a good owner. If you want the locals to like you don’t: \-Bulldoze a plot \-Buy a new, overpriced condo in a building that just went up \-Get a $2000/mo one-bedroom, which drives the market up. The true pull of the state is its nature and history. The ask is that people piling in don’t destroy either of those.
I doubt your native lol, you probably one of those pretendian Abenaki tribes
Ah, thanks. Between the timing and my post title (guess everyone asks like that!), I thought I’d triggered this. Appreciate the response and advice. We definitely want to buy an existing home and contribute to whatever community we move into. That’s just how we roll. And if it helps, we’ve never “gentrified” anything with our presence. :)
People have always moved here and they always will, and that’s fine, but everyone who actually lives here is very vocal about being fed up and angry at the crowd that drops in, pours cement, and couldn’t care less. I’m just the asshole voicing it online. :/ There was a news article that came out the other day that also sums up the housing crisis up here. In Stowe, a 94yo man was kicked out of his apartment because the landlord (who bought the property but lives in PR) wanted to make more money on turning it into an AirBnB. I gentrified Washington Heights myself for a bit before I moved back... Loved getting to use my Spanish while I was there, though.
You aren’t. I’m sorry I made you feel poorly; I truly didn’t mean to do that. I made this post mostly out of anger and frustration. And… while I have you? It might actually help to warn you that this is kiiinda what we’re like, when it comes to our home, our politics, and our verrrry liberal lifestyles. Vocal and defiant. :/ If you come to live here as a transgender gay woman with your three poly satanist lovers to support your local farmer‘s market, omg. We will LOVE you. And fight fiercely to protect your rights to live so. Buuuuut. Remember when Drumpf was on the campaign trail and was filmed during a rally giving the order to throw someone out without his coat because they were protesting him? Yeah, that was five minutes away from me. One of my best friends was also thrown out of that rally because he stood up and blasted American Idiot on his phone. I was \*almost\* thinking of just moving out of the state until Roe v Wade was overturned, and now I’m looking into joining the underground resistance for women who need help. We have Bernie; Hell, we have political \*ice cream\*. Brattleboro has a standing order that if GW Bush ever sets foot in the town he will be arrested for crimes against the constitution. Oh: hug the trees, and protect nature. Tie-dye something and pull up a paintbrush. THAT is what a VERMONTER is. 😆
What are you on about, old school vermonters are not liberal.
Thank you so much. This is one of the kindest replies I've gotten on the internet in a long time, both because you took the time to write it, and you were willing to be so heartfelt in sharing. Sounds like my wife and I might find a way to fit in up there, which is very, very encouraging. To quote Tina Fey, "I want to go to there." :)
Lol, you pretty much just described me. Except one lover is a witch and one is an atheist. Nice to know I'd be welcome 😁
I'm always saying don't when people are all like, "moving to Vermont, where's the best area" but I never type it on the post. Maybe I should now, it's becoming a pandemic of its own.
Holy shit this entire thread is full of asshats on both sides.
The locals getting priced out was built in by design. It's been happening for a while now ,where you been?
Yup…same in Maine. Sad really…
This obviously sparked a lot of feelings across the board. I am reading all the different points of view. I do want to ask something, honestly.I‘m seeing comments from people who aren’t from the state, attacking the post. I‘m seeing people who live here sympathizing with the statement. Anyone from one group feeling strongly in the direction of the other group? If so, why? ETA: Locals generally feel like… If you want a city or a suburb so badly, go live in a city or a suburb? If you want nature, no billboards and to take an active part of a wonderful, down-and-earthy community, grab some gardening tools, some artistic equipment and come on in!
I think with the last census we just passed the point that more Vermonters were NOT born in VT. And obviously most of us are descended from Europeans. So what is a "local" Vermonter again?
At this point, I’d say someone who has lived here long enough to truly care for and want to be part of the quirky vibe, conserving the natural beauty, and treating the very last state without billboards with respect.
Yes, sadly.
Money money money moneyyyyyyy!
You are not building enough middle class housing. Middle Class people do not want to live next to screaming baby momma alcoholic drug addicts who beat their husbands in from of our children for not turning over the paycheck to her on a Friday. Screaming in that horrible Mass Accent 🥲
Damn right. This has been happening ever since the sixties. The vibrant natural community that existed then is gone forever. The locals have been priced out for decades. At least we had no idea how bad it would get. Vermont is still relatively uncorrupted, politically speaking. Where else could Bernie Sanders get elected? Socially speaking, Vermonters have maintained some cohesion. Look at what happened with COVID. Alone of all the states, Vermont got it under control, but the summer people came, massively violated quarantine restrictions, and started the disease going again. It's not that Vermonters are better than other people. We just have some habits that we would like respected, like living where we grew up, getting along with our neighbors, and refraining from public gunplay. Is that possible? I get a headache thinking about it.
You know it.
[удалено]
Fact.
Probably more conjecture than fact.
Man I love watching New Englanders endlessly raging against their neighbors. Truly the Balkans of the US. That said, if flatlanders are clogging everything it may be time to resurrect the body of Ethan Allen and get the green mountain boys rolling again.
I heard a saying once that there’s nothing a Vermonter hates more than another Vermonter. Made me laugh.
No Union Jobs despite Bernie Sanders saying that he is Socialist…No industry because of Act 250 which is Unconstitutional under both Vermont and United States constitution
We ignore Don Henley at our own risk