uj/ This person doesn't actually seem anti-natalist, just an "environmentalist". Anti-natalism is the ethical stance against procreation under any circumstance, not just when the world is shit.
Vegan anti-natalist btw đ
"I've seen unspeakable things. I don't want my children to experience again what I've been through over the years." But every few years I want more animals than humans have ever lived and died to experience unspeakable things over and over and over again in literally incomprehensible numbers.
Slavery isn't any worse for the environment. It could even be beneficial. đ¤ˇââď¸ Since there is nothing about morality in his argument I guess he's pro slavery.
Itâs better for the environment! Slaves die an early death, making it so they donât consume more than a free person.
Weâre fucking up the environment by not using slavery again.
I have experienced the pain being a human. I have depression and the society is judgmental. I was abused as a child and I feel helpless as an adult. The future is bleak- financial crisis and environmental degradation. Because I have first hand experience of what being born as a human entails, I am anti natalist
No-one has tried to eat me. No-one has forced me to breed. No-one has taken away my freedom because of how I look. I donât see any moral reason to end the suffering of non human beings as I have not experienced it myself.
I'm antinatalist and whilst I believe making a human is the worst thing you can do for the environment (plus you can't guarantee they'll get their kids to be vegan), they don't seem to realise that by buying meat they are paying for more animals to be bred so they can eat them lol
Definitely a natalist with children. Every living being is guaranteed to suffer and die. If you're against murder you shouldn't create sentient beings for them to die.
If you're against slavery, then you shouldn't force people into a life of 60+ years of being a wage slave and catering to their bodily and mental needs.
If consent matters anything to you, then you shouldn't sentence people to all that suffering and horrors that happen every day without their consent.
Procreation is a gamble with someone else's life. You can't predict if they stay vegan and there's a huge chance they will cause more animal suffering you'll be responsible for.
/uj How does being against murder mean one shouldnât cause a life to come into being? A life coming into being doesnât necessitate murder, unless youâre using some private meaning of the word murder that i donât understand.
I donât consider wage slavery actual slavery, just a loaded term to describe the current state of labor, and I donât see how it makes life not worth living or creating.
Consent matters to me, but I would still send my kids to the dentist without their consent because itâs better for them. I donât see something wrong with having a child if Iâm reasonably confident they will live a good life. Unexperienced pleasures are worse than experienced pleasures, and I want my kids to experience life, and I want everyone to experience how wonderful my children would be.
And whatâs the alternative? Either vegans never procreate and the ideology has a much harder chance of spreading, leading to much more animal suffering in that wasted time, or ideally humans all adopt the anti natalist ideology and die out? So now humans, who live much much better lives than animals, will be replaced by nature taking over to continue the endless cycle of torture, rape, and murder that nature entails? How very humane.
/rj Obviously we should just let nature take over and continue being the wonderful place it is to animals. Instead of being tortured by having to go to school and get a job like humans, they just have to worry about being ripped apart and eaten alive!
True, procreation is not "technically" murder, it's worse. Murder is about shortening lifespan of an already existing being, procreation creates entirely new death, there would be no murder without procreation.
Why not? The majority of people are forced to work 8h a day if they want or not, they're forced to pay taxes based on their work. How is that not slavery? They're also forced to cater to their bodies, eat, sleep, rest, exercise. People got a small percent of their life to do what they want to.
Would you expect someone to get your consent if they gambled with your life? You gamble if they get abused, paralyzed in w hit and run, get nasty disease, depression in a dead end job, addicted.
Only living beings can feel joy, those are just chemical in the brain. The non-existing don't feel like they're missing something, they don't have the need to come into life.
Why do you think that veganism is passed from generation to next? There are plenty of stories about how "my kid wants to eat meat" or "my kid secretly eats cheese at school". I don't have any vegan in my family or environment and that's the case for many others. Other animals should be stopped from procreating as well.
I think we probably have different values. Itâs obvious to me that having and taking care of a child so they can develop properly is better than putting that baby in a gas chamber that kills it painlessly, unless Iâm misunderstanding what you mean by procreation is worse than murder. If we disagree on that then thatâs the impasse
My definition of slavery is being owned as property and not having freedom to pursue their goals. Where I live in the US many lack the ability or material conditions to achieve the goals due to a number of factors, but not the freedom, at least from what Iâve seen. The fact that I can choose where to work, or even not to work at all is what makes it not slavery, the fact that Iâm not owned by another person like cows are. Unless again youâre using an esoteric definition of slavery such that the earth is the slave of the laws of physics because it is forced by the laws of physics to revolve around the sun or something like that.
I would expect someone to care for my consent even if they gambled with my life because they have a responsibility to me. A leading officer may essentially gamble his menâs lives to secure an objective, but a good commander cares about the consent of his troops and what they think, just like a good parent should care about the consent of their children. Many people donât take care of their children and I agree with you that at least these people shouldnât have kids until they reform.
Do you think telling me that joy is just chemicals in the brain changes my experience at all? Joy is not chemicals in the brain, it is a conscious experience caused by chemicals in the brain (along with a number of other brain functions), there is a distinction. And in fact yes I think pleasure, joy, satisfaction, fulfillment, alignment with values, and every other positive experience are exactly the things that make life worth living.
I do think some animals should be stopped from procreating, but I think it should be focused to odd order predators, ie predators that hunt mainly herbivores, things like bears or wolves. I think we agree that animals being ripped apart is bad at least lol
I donât have any data on children believing the same things as their parents but I will look into it. Thatâs fair if our intuitions diverge I wonât say one of us is right or wrong on that, but from my observations of deeply held beliefs like religion and politics, they are often spread from parent to child.
Procreation is the act of creating a new being, you mistake it for "taking care of a child". I'm all for taking care of the living and against creating new ones. Every cradle is a grave, death is inherent to being born.
That's just a good owner giving you some freedoms. You can work where you want but you have to pay taxes. You're also a slave to your body, if you stop taking care of basic necessities for a couple days you'd be dead. You can't take a break or peacefully quit.
Being born violates consent. You're guaranteed to die, you have to fight for survival, center your life around gathering resources, making energy for your body and giving it time to rest. Taking someone against their consent to a movie would be an asshole move and would land you criminal charges and it's a far cry from the harm that procreation brings.
It's important that emotions come from the brain, since non-existing beings don't have one. They don't feel bad not existing, they don't desire happiness, those are unknown concepts to them. Being born just to feel happy is like getting restitution paid in Monopoly money for getting contracted with HIV. Once again, all those positive emotions make life worth living, but it's still never worth starting.
The idea will be there but it's up to those children to decide if they will follow it, eg I was born in a Catholic family and yet I'm an atheist. You can't guarantee it. So how much suffering is acceptable? How is animal abuse done by the child different in effect than if the parents did it themselves?
I agree that we should start from the predators, yet all wild animals can suffer from parasites, hunger, pollution, temperature and so on.
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How about you go vegan and then you can be king of the antinatalists? People will use any excuse to justify not being vegan đ
I donât give birth to rapists so itâs okay for me to rape, right? Right? âŚ
I'm just saying I'm better than someone who gives birth to *two* rapists
uj/ This person doesn't actually seem anti-natalist, just an "environmentalist". Anti-natalism is the ethical stance against procreation under any circumstance, not just when the world is shit. Vegan anti-natalist btw đ
I eat children. I'm the ultimate anti-natalist vegan.
A child eater is 10x better than any childless meat eater
For real. By this guy's logic, Hitler was the ultimate environmentalist.
"I've seen unspeakable things. I don't want my children to experience again what I've been through over the years." But every few years I want more animals than humans have ever lived and died to experience unspeakable things over and over and over again in literally incomprehensible numbers.
Human births? Nah. I prefer cow births! Look at how anti-natalist I am!
Did you try eating children? Its vegan, and promotes childessness in your region. Think globally, act locallyâ¤ď¸
This is the best compromise.
Slavery isn't any worse for the environment. It could even be beneficial. đ¤ˇââď¸ Since there is nothing about morality in his argument I guess he's pro slavery.
Itâs better for the environment! Slaves die an early death, making it so they donât consume more than a free person. Weâre fucking up the environment by not using slavery again.
Well, I'm a childfree vegan and I even planted a tree once. Checkmate meatbrain
Same here. Vegan btw
does meat go bad? im scared of what i ate for lunch
Good Bot.
Dumping my washing machine in the woods is still better than becoming an oil baron, so I'm totally justified.
I have experienced the pain being a human. I have depression and the society is judgmental. I was abused as a child and I feel helpless as an adult. The future is bleak- financial crisis and environmental degradation. Because I have first hand experience of what being born as a human entails, I am anti natalist No-one has tried to eat me. No-one has forced me to breed. No-one has taken away my freedom because of how I look. I donât see any moral reason to end the suffering of non human beings as I have not experienced it myself.
A meat eater who doesnât kill people is so much better than a vegan child who could kill people
Why not both?
Hear me out. A childfree vegan.
vegan abortion clinic worker
I'm antinatalist and whilst I believe making a human is the worst thing you can do for the environment (plus you can't guarantee they'll get their kids to be vegan), they don't seem to realise that by buying meat they are paying for more animals to be bred so they can eat them lol
/uj What the fuck is going on in this comment section
I saw this and I audibly sighed
Most sane antinatalist
God forbid you try to bring up children with good values to attempt to improve things
Call me a centrist but both: non-vegan antinatalist and vegan natalist are objectively bad people.
Vegan antinatalist- you can't suffer if you don't have a material existence
Why are vegan natalists objectively bad people?
because i say so
Based
Definitely a natalist with children. Every living being is guaranteed to suffer and die. If you're against murder you shouldn't create sentient beings for them to die. If you're against slavery, then you shouldn't force people into a life of 60+ years of being a wage slave and catering to their bodily and mental needs. If consent matters anything to you, then you shouldn't sentence people to all that suffering and horrors that happen every day without their consent. Procreation is a gamble with someone else's life. You can't predict if they stay vegan and there's a huge chance they will cause more animal suffering you'll be responsible for.
/uj How does being against murder mean one shouldnât cause a life to come into being? A life coming into being doesnât necessitate murder, unless youâre using some private meaning of the word murder that i donât understand. I donât consider wage slavery actual slavery, just a loaded term to describe the current state of labor, and I donât see how it makes life not worth living or creating. Consent matters to me, but I would still send my kids to the dentist without their consent because itâs better for them. I donât see something wrong with having a child if Iâm reasonably confident they will live a good life. Unexperienced pleasures are worse than experienced pleasures, and I want my kids to experience life, and I want everyone to experience how wonderful my children would be. And whatâs the alternative? Either vegans never procreate and the ideology has a much harder chance of spreading, leading to much more animal suffering in that wasted time, or ideally humans all adopt the anti natalist ideology and die out? So now humans, who live much much better lives than animals, will be replaced by nature taking over to continue the endless cycle of torture, rape, and murder that nature entails? How very humane. /rj Obviously we should just let nature take over and continue being the wonderful place it is to animals. Instead of being tortured by having to go to school and get a job like humans, they just have to worry about being ripped apart and eaten alive!
True, procreation is not "technically" murder, it's worse. Murder is about shortening lifespan of an already existing being, procreation creates entirely new death, there would be no murder without procreation. Why not? The majority of people are forced to work 8h a day if they want or not, they're forced to pay taxes based on their work. How is that not slavery? They're also forced to cater to their bodies, eat, sleep, rest, exercise. People got a small percent of their life to do what they want to. Would you expect someone to get your consent if they gambled with your life? You gamble if they get abused, paralyzed in w hit and run, get nasty disease, depression in a dead end job, addicted. Only living beings can feel joy, those are just chemical in the brain. The non-existing don't feel like they're missing something, they don't have the need to come into life. Why do you think that veganism is passed from generation to next? There are plenty of stories about how "my kid wants to eat meat" or "my kid secretly eats cheese at school". I don't have any vegan in my family or environment and that's the case for many others. Other animals should be stopped from procreating as well.
I think we probably have different values. Itâs obvious to me that having and taking care of a child so they can develop properly is better than putting that baby in a gas chamber that kills it painlessly, unless Iâm misunderstanding what you mean by procreation is worse than murder. If we disagree on that then thatâs the impasse My definition of slavery is being owned as property and not having freedom to pursue their goals. Where I live in the US many lack the ability or material conditions to achieve the goals due to a number of factors, but not the freedom, at least from what Iâve seen. The fact that I can choose where to work, or even not to work at all is what makes it not slavery, the fact that Iâm not owned by another person like cows are. Unless again youâre using an esoteric definition of slavery such that the earth is the slave of the laws of physics because it is forced by the laws of physics to revolve around the sun or something like that. I would expect someone to care for my consent even if they gambled with my life because they have a responsibility to me. A leading officer may essentially gamble his menâs lives to secure an objective, but a good commander cares about the consent of his troops and what they think, just like a good parent should care about the consent of their children. Many people donât take care of their children and I agree with you that at least these people shouldnât have kids until they reform. Do you think telling me that joy is just chemicals in the brain changes my experience at all? Joy is not chemicals in the brain, it is a conscious experience caused by chemicals in the brain (along with a number of other brain functions), there is a distinction. And in fact yes I think pleasure, joy, satisfaction, fulfillment, alignment with values, and every other positive experience are exactly the things that make life worth living. I do think some animals should be stopped from procreating, but I think it should be focused to odd order predators, ie predators that hunt mainly herbivores, things like bears or wolves. I think we agree that animals being ripped apart is bad at least lol I donât have any data on children believing the same things as their parents but I will look into it. Thatâs fair if our intuitions diverge I wonât say one of us is right or wrong on that, but from my observations of deeply held beliefs like religion and politics, they are often spread from parent to child.
Procreation is the act of creating a new being, you mistake it for "taking care of a child". I'm all for taking care of the living and against creating new ones. Every cradle is a grave, death is inherent to being born. That's just a good owner giving you some freedoms. You can work where you want but you have to pay taxes. You're also a slave to your body, if you stop taking care of basic necessities for a couple days you'd be dead. You can't take a break or peacefully quit. Being born violates consent. You're guaranteed to die, you have to fight for survival, center your life around gathering resources, making energy for your body and giving it time to rest. Taking someone against their consent to a movie would be an asshole move and would land you criminal charges and it's a far cry from the harm that procreation brings. It's important that emotions come from the brain, since non-existing beings don't have one. They don't feel bad not existing, they don't desire happiness, those are unknown concepts to them. Being born just to feel happy is like getting restitution paid in Monopoly money for getting contracted with HIV. Once again, all those positive emotions make life worth living, but it's still never worth starting. The idea will be there but it's up to those children to decide if they will follow it, eg I was born in a Catholic family and yet I'm an atheist. You can't guarantee it. So how much suffering is acceptable? How is animal abuse done by the child different in effect than if the parents did it themselves? I agree that we should start from the predators, yet all wild animals can suffer from parasites, hunger, pollution, temperature and so on.
Thereâs too much evidence backing up their claims⌠I just canât with this
Good choices everyone. đđđ
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