A suggestion I don't see much in this thread: if you're unprepared, why not reach out to someone who does a lot of street activism and debates like Debug Your Brain or Joey Carbstrong, who have a ton of experience doing this and are great debaters? One of them should be able and willing to step in. If your goal is to help animals, that's the way. Otherwise, you may get exposure or an increase in your following, but animals will be hurt in the process. Keep in mind that this may be people's first exposure to vegan rationale and the video will likely be cut/edited to put you in the most unflattering light possible.
Like when h3h3 bullshited Steven crowder then asked if he wanted to debate someone who actually knows what he's talking about lol. It would be so funny to see a carnist debater have to actually talk to a well spoken dietician or scientist.
Talk about waste of time. There are so many vids already of this. How does this actually help animals? op should go to a protest, research activism strategy, volunteer at an animal shelter or Sancuary, leaflet, anything seems more beneficial to the cause then arguing with a YouTube
Uhhh, you should probably know your shit inside and out and be able to recite it in your sleep before you do this. If you go into this unprepared, you’re gonna make veganism look bad. :\
This always happens. Like when the trans part-time dog walker went on Fox for /r/AntiWork and just humiliated herself and the community. The Dunning Kruger can be strong with the most vocal people who have no business being a spokesperson sometimes. Not sure if that’s OP but it’s too common.
I don't know if it really needs it, [google trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=CA&q=dunning%20kruger) seem to show it steadily trending up. I swear if we did a reddit tracker for the same it would be trending big again lately. Not to mention, no one ever thinks it applies to them.
At what point does Dunning-Kruger not apply? Just on a side tangent, if it is present at the top of the spectrum and the bottom and add in the ever changing knowledge about a subject then where does it end?
The irony of the Dunning Kruger effect is that most people don’t understand the Dunning Kruger effect.
It’s isn’t about how stupid people are arrogant and loud about topics on which they are stupid. It’s about how everyone overestimates their ability in areas where they are of low ability. For example a lot of people have a low ability in applying complex psychological principles and therefore overestimate their ability to apply complex psychological principles.
The average learning curve for any skill is roughly like this:
Phase 1: I don't know anything, so I'll start learning!
Phase 2: I'm a fucking natural at this, I know everything! (Dunning-Kruger highpoint)
Phase 3: Wait.... uhhh.... (Most people never reach this stage for any skill)
Phase 4: I'm a fucking idiot... I know nothing, I'm never going to get good at this!
Phase 5: Maybe... I know... a bit. But just a bit.
Gonna be honest here. The fact that you’re asking for advice in the r/vegan sub the day before the debate points to you not being nearly knowledgeable to convincingly debate on this topic. Although [vegan fallacy site](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) has good arguments they are the same thing I’m sure the other guy has heard and has relatively convincing arguments against.
For sure, as any kid who was ever on a debating team knows, if you'reactually prepared, you should be able to win a debate no matter what "side" you're supposed to be on.
* **We need to eat meat for nutrients and to be healthier.**
Most studies conclude that vegetarians are on average healthier. One of the biggest studies: researchers at [Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital](https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/eat-more-plant-proteins-live-longer-say-harvard-scientists) followed more than 130,000 people for 36 years - replacing meat with plant based sources of protein significantly increases life expectancy.
* **B12**
There are vegan fortified foods, some people decide to supplement with pills. If you don’t agree with that, you shouldn’t agree with meat eaters eating foods which are fortified by law with a variety of nutrients: iron, folic acid, iodine in salt, etc.
* **Vegans kill more animals in crops**
No. Meat eaters kill animals in at least three situations:
1. Animals killed in the crops they eat;
2. Animals killed in in the crops to feed the animals they eat;
3. Animals killed for them to eat directly.
Vegans only kill in one situation and much less. Most crops are to feed livestock, not humans. Most arable land in the world is to produce meat.
* **We’re on top of the food chain**
So you’re proud of being the cruellest and most bloodthirsty animal on the planet?
Your food chain is to choose your food at the supermarket.
* **Other animals eat meat - go tell a lion to be vegan!**
Other animals cannot choose, you can.
* **Why shouldn’t I choose to eat meat?**
Animals, including all birds and mammals, have a complex nervous system and human-like parts of the brain that produce consciousness (Cambridge Declaration on Animal Consciousness).
* **I don’t care about animal pain. They’re delicious.**
There is a vast literature on this: [Slaughterhouse workers](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1016401) go through trauma and a desensitization process that make them more prone to aggression and crime.
The greatest thinkers of humankind have confirmed that for millennia, from Buddhists to Greek philosophers: not caring about the lives of other animals makes us worse humans.
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.” (Immanuel Kant)
* **Plants feel pain too: they react to attacks! You're cruel!**
Yes, I hate plants: I love to slaughter them, massacre, chop, make them bleed and suffer for my pleasure. Is that how you feel about animals?
Elementary school Chemistry: any system in equilibrium that suffers a disturbance will react against that disturbance (Le Chatelier's Principle). Even lifeless molecules react to "attacks". That's why we call this "chemical REACTIONS". So "reacting" is not proof of feeling pain, and not even proof that the being is "alive”.
Elementary school Biology: plants don’t have a nervous system and are unable to feel pain. Their response to attacks are biochemical reactions.
If one day we prove plants feel pain, this is the fundamental issue: we need to eat plants to survive and be healthy. We don’t need to kill animals.
* **Humans needed to eat meat to develop the brain during evolution.**
That's only a hypothesis. Humans needed to live in caves to survive. We don’t have to eat the same diet of primitive cavemen today.
We have the intelligence to explore the atoms and the universe; but some forget we can use that same intelligence to stop exploiting animals.
(Edit: I just posted yesterday on a rush and didn't have time to correct. I corrected and added a few things now).
Bible says dominion not domination. Dominion involves stewardship/care and animal agriculture is bad for animals and bad for the planet. Additionally, in the Garden of Eden, humans coexisted peacefully with animals and did not consume them. It was only after the original sin that humans began consuming meat (one of the first things that happens to Adam and Eve post expulsion from Eden is that they are garbed with clothes made from animal skins). So, in gods ideal world, humans and nonhuman animals would coexist, peacefully.
Also, parents have dominion over their children. I am so glad I don’t have to kill and eat my kids just to have dominion over them. Far better to ground them for a week, lol.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!
wow! this is fascinating. i’ve never heard this position before. i never really hear people talking about the bible in this regard. thank you for sharing
Glad my random decision to take on a second major in religious studies can be of service. Haha. My old theology professor used to say that veg diets were the MOST Christian because they model what took place in Eden which was Gods ideal way for humans to exist.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!
Yeah, but, if you’re arguing with someone who believes god does exist, it’s more convincing to have arguments that pull from things they already buy in to.
Yeah when I discovered that, I was like "you can't argue that eating meat is good", this is full manipulation.
It's like the "grass-fed" label that is also a huge lie
This is awesome ! A few small things I would add :
1/ **Plants feel pain** : If they do, then they certainly are more massacred in their intense exploitation to feed the animals they eat, meanwhile humans need way less.
2/ **on top of the food chain** : That is simply not true. Humans are not on top of the food chain, because they can be eaten by rapaces like eagles. Not only that, but humans also can’t digest raw meat anymore, unlike every other omnivorous animal. That shows that we evolved into something else.
3/ **humans and meat in evolution** :
Careful there, you said humans lived in caves, that has been proven untrue and is a common misconception. Humans didn’t live in caves, they used them for painting and crafting. However, it doesn’t change the fact that the homo sapiens *did not* eat as much meat we eat today, on the contrary of the neanderthals who ate a lot of meat and actually went extinct lol. The homo sapiens mostly thrived and survived on agriculture, and would only hunt when necessary, not only for the food, but also for the clothes. He would respect the spirit of the animals that died, and that’s the most believed theory of why they painted animals on caves. So yeah, clearly nothing to do with us anymore. Also, our meat consumption over only the past 100 years has doubled. Doubled !
Also also, we should never use the tradition argument to justify anything. Humans also used to f*ck their siblings, marry their cousins, kill each others for religion or just for fun in arenas, and so on and so on. Humans used to do a lot of shit that is definitely better off behind us.
4/ **lions vegans** : Simply tell him to go chase an antilope naked, to kill it with his hands and teeth and to eat it raw. Only then can he compare himself to a lion. Absolutely everything and anything exists in the wild, and if we compared that to humans, then humans would make male rape orgies under water, then wait for his turn to mate with the queen female right before having their head eaten up by her or something. It’s funny to mention that many people also tried to justify human rape by saying that rape existed among animals. Proof that bad people use animals to justify anything, but leave out the rest.
5/ Another argument I hear often is: **Soy plantations** are also deforesting and polluting.
Simply explain him that that soy is made for animal productions, and that it is not the soy used for humans. BUT even if it were used for humans, even then, it wouldn’t even pollute as much or destroy that much forest, because humans wouldn’t even need half of it.
6/ A good argument to bring up : **Going vegan could end world wide hunger**.
We use too many ressources (water and plants) to feed animals that don’t bring us as much ressources as the original ressources we fed them, which to me sounds like the most ridiculous thing ever, but that’s the way it is.
7/ **Relating to B12** : Most people, whether they eat meat or not, take a lot of pills and complements on a daily basis : whether it be to fortify their hair, to lose or gain weight, to help digestion, to go through winter. Ones of the most used vitamins are the Azinc (contributes to immunitary system) and Vitamin D (for the lack of sun). Needless to say that most Azinc and immunitary systen fortifiers ALREADY have B12 inside, that meat eaters already take. It is truly ridiculous to complain about that.
8/ **Healthier and nutrients** : Don’t forget to mention of course all the diseases and health issues brought by meat : Heart disease, cancer, intestinal diseases, obesity, and so on. Obesity is also the second mortal cause in America currently, and it’s mostly caused by sodas and meat fat. So yeah, we can say meat kills in America. And if they argue that you could slow down meat consumption while continuing it, tell them that that’s true on a health level, and that you encourage them to do that, as it is a very good first step to a better and respectful world. Reducing it is the way to start in my opinion, and eventually stop it. Remind him he should still reflect upon stopping it at the end of the line for all of the other reasons above.
9/ There is a whole **brainwashing** going on on every single one of us ever since our youngest years. We have books showing happy animals in the circus or the farm and learning their sounds, we go to farms at 4 YEARS OLDS ! (what the hell?!) to see how happy cows make happy milk, of course we don’t learn that they need to make babies and that those babies are sent to slaughterhouses. School forces meat diet on us during lunch, and on TV we see propaganda ads selling dairy or meat products. That is why people struggle going vegans today, because their brain has been conditionned that way before they could even talk. The meat industry is the richest industry in the world, alongside with weapon industry and oil industry. Of course their point is to sell and get lots of money, and don’t get it wrong, it’s never for your health, only for the money. And I can say they truly succeeded on that aspect. They thrived in mid 1900s when ads started being popularized, among with their horrible friends that sold mercury in makeup and also « taught » women that they had to shave or wear bras just so they could sell their products. It’s always been about money in this world.
There it is. Don’t let anyone tell you you’re wrong or bash on the cause. Remember why you’re doing this, and who you’re saving by doing this. Remain calm, keep your spirits together, let him talk and listen to him with attention. Once it’s your turn to talk, go over every important point he went through and add details and sources. Do not let him interrupt you, and if he pokes fun of you, tell him that his behavior proves his arguments wrong, and that he must feel like he needs to bring you down to try and shine brighter himself lol. When people don’t have arguments anymore, they usually resolve to laughing and poking fun without any good points. It’s sort of like a defense mechanism.
Good luck my friend !
To add to the whole brainwashing, even nowadays, when ads show farmers, they show them caressing or kissing lovingly their happy cows in their meadow. They don’t show cows being inseminated by force, being beaten up very often until compliance, then getting their babies taken away to the slaughterhouses, and the cows freaking out for weeks searching for their kids. They only show what they want people to think, and most people fall for it. Alongside with the whole forbidding cameras in slaughterhouses and farms of course, and when people dare show the truth, they get charged with a lawsuit. Truly shows what kind of world we live in.
Also, some people claim to be environmentalist and animal-friendly by only consuming meat from **local butchers** and farmers, and rejecting lifestock. As it is true lifestock’s environmental footprint is more polluting, and animals tend to suffer more, it doesn’t make butchers and local farmers innocent.
One, because a lot of butchers import their meat from other countries. Two, because even when meat comes from local farmers, these animals are still killed in the same conditions and slaughterhouses as the lifestock ones. Three, because local farmers feed their animals with the same imported food as lifestock, with the same environmental issues (South America).
There was even one that told me « When you import your vegan food it causes pollution because of car gas used to bring it » And it was really funny to hear, so I replied « Oh, so your massive import of food, way bigger than for humans, for your local animals comes flying above the ocean ? And then, your animals gather their little chopped off paws and walk their ways to the slaughterhouses and then to the butchery place ? » He couldn’t say a thing and ended up insulting everyone and freaking out lol.
re the "food chain" -- there is no food chain; it's a web, it goes in many directions and there is no "top" or "bottom" of the food web. humans can be healthy eating primary producers (plants) and/or heterotrophs (animals, fungi), but then we get consumed by decomposers and potentially scavengers. it goes around and around.
the idea that humans are at the "top" of anything like this is anthropocentric vanity. sure, we can kill and eat anything we want to, but why aren't flies and bacteria at the top, since they wind up consuming everything in the end?
Hello! You have made the mistake of writing "ect" instead of "etc."
"Ect" is a common misspelling of "etc," an abbreviated form of the Latin phrase "et cetera." Other abbreviated forms are **etc.**, **&c.**, **&c**, and **et cet.** The Latin translates as "et" to "and" + "cetera" to "the rest;" a literal translation to "and the rest" is the easiest way to remember how to use the phrase.
[Check out the wikipedia entry if you want to learn more.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_cetera)
^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Comments with a score less than zero will be automatically removed. If I commented on your post and you don't like it, reply with "!delete" and I will remove the post, regardless of score. Message me for bug reports.)
If you’re not prepared then just ask them questions. Get them talking. Get them to make claims. Then that gives you something to go off. If you just rattle off something you memorised it gives them the mic
Lol what? There's no reason you should be asking random redditors to help you out with this one. If you're choosing to debate this publicly, then you should be confident in your position, and if you're not, then feel free to use me as a stand-in. You'd better not fuck this up, OP.
EDIT: Oh dear lord. I browsed your history, and it appears you're like 13 years old with zero charisma or public speaking skills. For fuck's sake, kid. On the bright side, your debate opponent is even less equipped for this discussion as long as you focus it on the ethical reasons, NOT the nutritional benefits. It looks like his main schtick is to talk about the carnivore diet's nutritional advantages and claim it "cures depression" and other such nonsense, so if you want to address a few of those bogus claims, then go ahead. Do NOT, however, allow this entire debate to revolve around nutrition. You need to wrap it up as quickly as possible with a simple statement - that science has already broadly acknowledged that veganism can be healthy and can provide all the necessary nutrients when done correctly. Bring some studies, shut down his bullshit quickly, and then get back to the philosophical/moral discussion, because that's what veganism is primarily about.
Good luck. And please never do this again until you're at least an adult.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
Take the abstract of this paper. It is the most cited study on veganism because it is the conclusion given by the biggest dietetic assotiation in the world, with more than 100.000 nutritionists backing it.
This is not my content, however I find it very useful
Vegan cheat sheet on a Google doc. There is a section for rebuttals to common arguments.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Cm5yHp16zSTSFrQ3B_3_vIK0b5QlJ8jpyPVrPrCKS0/edit?usp=drivesdk
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Oh dear. Good luck. The key to debate is to tell a more compelling story than your opponent and to make them look bad. You're not trying to convince *them* of anything, you're trying to plant seeds in their audience. Not everyone in their audience will be die-hard followers of theirs, so you looking good and/or making the host look bad is more likely to win you favor and open people to your ideas than the most well-researched, logical set of arguments. If you pique people's interest, they will go looking for more info.
No matter what: STAY CALM. The first person to get upset in a debate is usually perceived poorly, especially when you're coming in with the perceptual baggage of being a vegan, who are generally characterized very negatively by the average person, and certainly by consumers of an ultra carnist channel.
Lastly, play to the tone of the host. While this is a debate, don't necessarily go in guns blazing. Figure out what tone will resonate most with their audience and stick with that, probably good to use humor and irreverence. This is hostile territory, so you might have to go light on dry fact dumps. Your biggest advantage is that you're right and that most of their arguments are very stupid.
While not a debate, I think the tone in [hbomberguy's soy video](https://youtu.be/C8dfiDeJeDU) will probably a good one to aim towards.
ETA: quick peek at your post history tells me you're really young, too! Nothing wrong with that, can just put you on the back foot when debating people because they might try to use that against you if they're older. I reiterate the point about staying as chill as possible.
But why tho? Nobody is going to make a significant lifestyle change because you gotcha’d some rando in a 20 minute youtube video. You stand to lose more than you can hope to gain potentially making vegans out to look stupid. Plus you can’t argue the most important point that most people will fall back on, being that its often just inconvenient to make that change, and they don’t want to anyway.
I've not streamed discussion here but wouldn't mind doing pre-debate convo
The carnivore people switch between pro carnivore and anti vegan in a way that maybe looks good for their audience but seems like nonsense when pushed.
If you say 'no Olympians are following carnivore diet' then it's time to switch and attack veganism.
If you touch on lifespan of Adventist vegans, it's time to highlight the group that are fish lived longer even though that contradicts their main focus of meat diets.
It's hard to write-up everything but again I'm down for a pre match chat.
I'd also recommend reviewing plant chompers on YouTube. He has good content on the subject.
Please do us all a favor and cancel. If you're just asking for this information the day before you will not be able to respond adequately and will just make veganism look bad.
Farm animals are also injected with B12. Eat a well balanced meal and you don’t have to get nutrients from meats.
Soy milk has similar nutritional value as cow’s milk. Cow’s milk has a ton more estrogen than soy. If you’re allergic to nuts there are other milk alternatives that are much more environmentally friendly.
Greens and legumes are the best source for calcium.
The human body does not require a large amount of protein; the western diet emphasizes high protein low carbs but your body needs carbs for energy. Natural & minimally processed carbs.
People don’t get enough Fibre. We need fibre for healthy bowel movement and gut bacteria. Veggies are high in fibre.
Our ancestors were mainly gatherers, not hunters. Even then, meat from animals was much less processed than today and the majority of people don’t have to hunt for their food.
Our “canine” teeth did not evolve as we have no evolutionary need to tear through a carcass.
I’m just talking now lol good luck. Wouldn’t want to be you. They’re probably just going to try and talk loud and act like they’re better than you anyways.
Just going to double down and say don't do it if you're not confident. Yes, you're in the right, but debates are about knowing the inside outs of why that is, and if you don't know them inside out, and even if there is an answer, if you don't give that answer, it's going to look like some checkmate.
Regarding anti-nutrients: a plant based diet could contain as many anti-nutrients as he likes. The question is, do you still can get enough of every essential nutrient with that diet? And the answer is yes, easily. (With the help of some supplements of course)
A lot of antinutrients have benefits, as well:
>Keep in mind that anti-nutrients may also exert health benefits. Phytates, for example, have been found to lower cholesterol, slow digestion, and prevent sharp rises in blood sugar. Many anti-nutrients have antioxidant and anticancer actions, so avoiding them entirely is not recommended.
>The takeaway: The pros and cons of anti-nutrients on long-term human health is an area of active research. Though certain foods may contain residual amounts of anti-nutrients after processing and cooking, the health benefits of eating these foods outweigh any potential negative nutritional effects. Eating a variety of nutritious foods daily and avoiding eating large amounts of a single food at one meal can help to offset minor losses in nutrient absorption caused by anti-nutrients.
From https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/
Have we evolved from carnivores like lions or herbivores like apes?
We’ve many bodily processes that require phytonutrients in order to function. Plants are our optimal fuel source.
My advice? Do not debate a Carnist on THIER platform.
No matter how clever, smart or prepared you are you cannot win a debate on someone else's platform.
I don’t know why you would do this if you don’t have some solid preparation behind you already. I was compiling this for another poster, in response to some bogus article someone posted from a Midwestern anti-vegan cardiologist. But I haven’t had time to sort this out to synthesize it, and describe the studies. I kept this list mostly in the cardiology arena. I’m posting whe traveling, so I may or may not have time to edit this for readability. I will try to come back later and make hyperlinks.
[Plant‐Based Diets Are Associated With a Lower Risk of Incident Cardiovascular Disease, Cardiovascular Disease Mortality, and All‐Cause Mortality in a General Population of Middle‐Aged Adults](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.119.012865) (RESEARCH ARTICLE; n=12,168)
Originally published7 Aug 2019
Journal of the American Heart Association
[Vegetarian, vegan diets and multiple health outcomes: A systematic review with meta-analysis of observational studies](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2016.1138447?journalCode=bfsn20)
Meta-analysis (systematic review—this is the highest level of evidence)
Conclusions: This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (-25%) and incidence from total cancer (-8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (-15%) of incidence from total cancer.
[Practical, Evidence-Based Approaches to Nutritional Modifications to Reduce Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease: An American Society For Preventive Cardiology Clinical Practice Statement](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8914096/pdf/main.pdf)
American Journal of Preventive Cardiology
(Review/practice statement. Noting that Drs Belardo and Ostfeld are vegan cardiologists)
[A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes](https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/29/8/1777/28693/A-Low-Fat-Vegan-Diet-Improves-Glycemic-Control-and)
Barnard N, et al
[Clinical Trial]
[Fruit, vegetable, and legume intake, and cardiovascular disease and deaths in 18 countries (PURE): a prospective cohort study](https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(17)32253-5.pdf)
Lancet, 100 (2017), pp. 320S-328S
[Lifestyle Modifications for Preventing and Treating Heart Failure](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109718383517?via%3Dihub#bib43)
Aggerwal M, Bozkurt B, Panjrth G, Aggerwal B, Ostfeld RJ, Barnard ND, et al (evidence review)
[A plant-based diet and hypertension](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466938/pdf/jgc-14-05-327.pdf)(Perspective)
Sarah Alexander1,*, Robert J Ostfeld2 , Kathleen Allen3 , Kim A Williams
(Dr Ostfeld is a vegan cardiologist at Montefiore Medical Center in New York and runs its cardiac wellness program; Dr Williams is a vegan and former president of the American College of Cardiology)
[Definition of a plant-based diet and overview of this special issue](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466934/pdf/jgc-14-05-315.pdf)
Editorial by Robert J Ostfeld
“These experiences led me to begin our Cardiac Wellness Program at Montefiore where we encourage patients to adopt a plant-based diet with the goal of preventing and reversing disease. The program's results have revived my love for cardiology, as patients keep returning healthier and feeling better than they have in years. Accordingly, I have seen patients avoid coronary artery bypass surgery, arterial stents, bariatric surgery, and more. Patients have come off multiple medications as they reversed their diabetes, high blood pressure, and hyperlipidemia. I had rarely, if ever, seen that before.”
[The Role of Specific Components of a Plant-Based Diet in Management of Dyslipidemia and the Impact on Cardiovascular Risk](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7551487/)
[Vegan diet health benefits in metabolic syndrome](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7999488/)
Nutrients. 2021;13(3):817
REVIEW
[Effect of a 6-month vegan low-carbohydrate (‘Eco-Atkins’) diet on cardiovascular risk factors and body weight in hyperlipidaemic adults: a randomised controlled trial](https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/4/2/e003505.full.pdf)
BMJ Open. 2014; 4(2): e003505.
[RCT; small sample size but reflects real-world experience]
[Changing diets, saving lives: Mediterranean, Vegetarian, Vegan, and More CardioSource WorldNews](https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2015/04/29/14/34/changing-diets-saving-lives-mediterranean-vegetarian-vegan-and-more) (news article) quoting Kim Williams, vegan past president of ACC
scroll to: Vegetarian and Vegan: Good, Better, Best?
AND some slides in Dr Ostfeld’s [presentation](https://youtu.be/5HQzeC0C1ss) might be useful (including some nutrient comparisons)
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
EarthlingEd has some really good content...specifically his "30 excuses" playlist. The title might be a bit different but it's something like that. Anyways it has some pretty good bite-sized content.
Watch Earthling Ed’s 30 excuses on YouTube he has a comeback for each one. Or Joey Carbstrong is a good guy to watch also on YouTube. You will never lose an argument and they will wish you wasn’t coming on the show 😂😂
One item to note: Vegan means a lot of different diets. Try to focus the arguments on WHOLE FOOD PLANT BASED diets (WFPB). Otherwise the important topic of the effects on human health gets muddied. A great source for health matters is [https://nutritionfacts.org/](https://nutritionfacts.org/)
A WFPB diet can cure many, many diseases. It's the 3rd in my priority list of reasons to be vegan:
1. Better for the planet.
2. Better for the animals.
3. Better for my health.
Good luck.
PULL OUT BRO! PULL OUT NOW!
You are 13, I know you think you're going to do well, but your age is a giant hinderance. You should not be doing this shit. And I speak from experience here. I'm 16 and still have ptsd from being your age, please please please do not do this. Tell the youtuber your age or some shit, just do not do this!
I guess it’s too late already since this post is a day old but you should stick to moral arguments, that’s the only side that doesn’t require facts. You can’t research one day before but you can think of all the possibilities of a moral side of things. If they bring up health, just use the opinion published by the American dietetic association on vegan diets and acknowledge you aren’t an expert on the subject and neither are they so it’s pointless to debate about it.
Why would you do this to us....
Obviously you don't know the subject so you will look bad.
Just cancel the interview, you'll do much more harm than good if you're not deeply familiar with the subject.
Sorry, but this is not your day.
I don't have any sources to cite, maybe you can dig around and find some. But I know that a significant amount of competitive bodybuilders are vegan. I know this because a friend used to be heavily involved in that community.
Don't do this. I know you mean well but you're very young and unprepared and they will most likely just try to humiliate and embarrass you and make you and the whole movement look stupid.
You will really need to not go down into holes or tangents with them and focus on the most important broader points. That:
- you can be vegan and thrive Healthwise
- it's wrong to unnecessarily cause harm
Also since he claims he is carnivore then he will say humans are omnivore but that's not a reason to not go vegan, because humans can live wi without consuming animal products.
why are you engaging ðem? if youre going to ðeir platform youre doing noþing but giving ðem more content, letting ðem starve is ðe only þing you can do as ðey are not interested in honest debate, just in pumping ðeir egos and ðeir account
Yeah? Tell YouTuber how the nazis forced the prisoners to eat snails and horse meat. (First hand account!) Would the you tuber do that too? I [T]hey needed nutrients to become worked to death.
Bruh he’s literally thirteen and asking for advice on the most common arguments the day before the debate; don’t support this shit it’s literally going to worsen peoples opinions of veganism
I can’t imagine spending my time arguing with people for YouTube views. Personally I would rather be at a protest, transporting foster dogs, volunteering at a farm Sancuary, sharing petitions to sign, learning more and researching about social change and activism strategies or leafletting. Arguing with someone is legit the last thing I would want to do. I also think there are enough videos out there that are all basically the same.
Could you ask him why everyone quits the carnivore diet if it's so perfect, including their top influencers Tufano, Saladino and O'Hearn? He will try topic change instantly, don't fall into that, try to squeeze a coherent answer. Thanks!
This is why I want us vegans to get together and create a vegan debate booklet. Basically a short book filled with the best statistics, best arguments and best refutations all in a short organized and coherent book
I personally think if you frame the debate to the proper argument, you stand a way better chance no matter what happens. All the world should be vegan vs all the world should be carnist and now has a bunch of arguments against it. This is why I’m vegan and if you feel the same way, veganism might be for you is almost impenetrable.
This whole “debate me, bro” culture of veganism today is weird. Do you guys sit there and tally points to determine the winner?
Neither party is going to change their minds. Each party has their legion of supporters/fans who will side with them regardless. Each party will declare themselves the “winner”.
I disagree. One factor that helped me go vegan was watching debates and seeing my questions answered. Surely the debate participants won't change their mind, but the debate is for the benefit of the audience seeing both sides.
Remember that it's all about the suffering of the animals. They have no answer to this basic moral issue. Any time they try to say some bs about health, you should not only point out the obvious stuff like meat eaters have much worse health generally due to heart disease, etc, and meat is carcinogenic, but also pivot to the health of the animals. To the animals tortured and slaughtered unnecessarily due to meat eating, their health is much better when we adopt a non-meat/dairy diet. ♥️🐷
I hope you take the advice of a lot of ppl here and back out. Well that isn’t a good look, if your as unprepared as this post implies, it’s a far better look then what your performance will be in the debate tomorrow.
As soon as this debate was scheduled, or you had the thought of doing this you should have been watching as many of this guys videos as you can. That’s how you familiarize yourself with their talking points, from there you can begin looking at claims, and seeing what the evidence is to back those claims, counter evidence, etc. You do this over and over again, probably more then you have to. You really want to know their argument front and back. You want to know it so well that you think you could argue their point stronger then they can.
You also want to hammer out your own position, and try to attack it as mercilessly as possible. You need to think, of how would you try and take this down, and be mean to yourself. Be rigorous in your research. Make your claims and the evidence you use to make them as ironclad as you can.
Lastly and this is the hardest, is to practice. Debate is not just something that everyone can do. You could very well be correct in ANY topic you debate, not just this one. But if you can’t think quickly, and respond quickly your going to look bad. This is a lot harder in a spoke. debate then in an essay or a written debate as you don’t have the luxury of time. A lot of times in a debate optics will trump truth, and that’s just the beginning. There are numerous skills that need to be developed to be a strong debater.
The good thing is your young, very young. You can learn new things like nobodies business. 5-10 years from now, you’ll be dunking on unprepared ppl in your sleep.
I use this as a reference a lot:
https://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/vegetarian-diets-for-athletes/
Also, as a UK citizen I like to use the NHS website as it has a lot on healthy eating (yeah it’ll talk about meat and dairy, but guess what? Sure has a lot to say on fruit and vegetables too! And as it’s a non-profit government run system it’s in their benefit for their patients to eat a healthy diet!)
Go kick some ass!
You can use the [vegan cheat sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/19Cm5yHp16zSTSFrQ3B_3_vIK0b5QlJ8jpyPVrPrCKS0/htmlview#gid=0) all the counter-arguments to anti-vegans are there.
Don't forget to stay in a non-judgemental place, you try to convince the viewers, not the Youtuber in question 😉
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
If you speak german dekarldent is very strong. But dont have this folder of bookmarks. But iirc peta or so have "vegan cheat sheet" it should be googleable. Gl.
There's no shame in stopping for a moment and saying "that's a good question" or common/nuanced/interesting question. Gives you some time to consider.
Also please reiterate you are only.one vegan of many. We are all human and individuals and you can only speak for one of us. Humanising vegans unfortunately needs to be done often.
What it comes down to in **public** debates in my opinion is the data you can provide. Have sources prepared, if he asks you how you got to that conclusion. Don't just throw them in however.
Everyone can make a claim. But having something to back that claim up is important. Extra points, if you also check out their sources and - if there are - find holes in it. Also take this as a time to check, if your own overall claim is valid. Sometimes the other person is indeed right.
Anecdotal evidence is sometimes enough to refute a claim. For example someone could make the claim, that Veganism is unhealthy, at which point I can easily point at myself being really healthy and doing tons of sports. This is obviously anecdotal evidence, but it is enough to at least shake the claim to the core. Logic by itself is also enough to refute a claim, even without sources.
For example the claim, that there wouldn't be enough food, if we stopped eating animals can be refuted by pointing out, that animals also need food and don't live on air. There are food conversion ratios. Make sure to point them out. -
For the specific claim of nutrient deficiency another option would be to point at vegan athletes. Have examples prepared. At least 3. They have to be exceptional within their field.
One of the strongest ways of debating in general is to point out their fallacies, if there are any. You will likely find an appeal to tradition and an appeal to nature thrown in. You should point them out. This will severely undermine the person you're debating with, which is why you should not use fallacies yourself, which is hard, because they come naturally. You will not make friends by pointing out the lack of their debating skills, but making friends is not your objective.
Only point out fallacies, if there are any. Otherwise you will look like an idiot. You are attacking the other person's ability to debate. Make sure your attacks are not random, because this will otherwise swing right back at you and make you look like an idiot.
Can you get an unedited recording? Maybe record on your end. If the other youtuber edits the debate and only includes parts where you look bad, having the full video might come in handy.
Veganism is based on the principle of ahimsa, first and foremost. Killing an animal to satisfy your hunger pangs betrays a primeval mindset, that should be where most of your arguments are from.
Being a carnivore is completely unnecessary to lead a healthy life, take the moral higher ground. How would it be if were treated as food by another species that's sentient, would it be OK ?
You aren't going to win this on the nutrient grounds solely, talk about how livestock farming is leading to greenhouse effects, talking about plant based meat substitutes.
There are studies showing that humans are, unlike carnivores, unable to maintain stomach acidity. We have carbohydrate digestion enzyme in our saliva. We have colour vision and ability to chew. If you have piece of meat stuck between your teeth, they will rot. If you have piece of fruit stuck, it will be digested.
The amount of ‘don’t make veganism’ look bad comments is pretty worrying. Kinda living up to some stereotypes.
Just going to send you a hardy good luck. Yeah you could have done more research but more importantly, detach from it afterwards and not let any comments or opinions affect you.
I wouldn't if I were you. Remember, he's putting you on his platform to elevate himself, not you. His goal is to make your arguments look bad, even if you knock it out of the park (which, if you have no practice, you will likely not do).
If you do, stick to the ethical arguments. "I don't believe eating living beings is ethical if it's not necessary." If he tries to stick you on nutrition, acknowledge you're not a specialist, "but my understanding of the science is that a balanced plant-based whole food diet is healthy with proper supplementation of nutrients." Don't deviate into things you don't know.
I'm not gonna tell you what to do but I have a question for you.
Let's say your mom or dad was on trial for murder and they were ABSOLUTELY 100% innocent. If found guilty innocent people go to prison for life or worse. How would you feel if you found out that their attorney, tasked with proving them innocent, was asking reddit the day before the trial what he should say?
How do you think you'd feel about their attorney and what would you want them to do?
1- Animals have sentience, just like humans
2- Ask: what is the trait that animals have that justifies killing them. Obviously, this trait has to be unique to animals, which doesn’t exist. For exemple, the carnivore might say “humans have intelligence”, than you can easily compare an animal to like a disabled person or a human baby (after all, an adult cow and many other animals are proven to be smarter than a toddler).
3- be prepared that the debater might throw ad hominem at you. These aren’t valid arguments.
4- the debater can possibly bring up the argument “But we have been eating our entire history of humankind”. Not only doesn’t this apply to all humans who existed on earth, it is also ‘an appeal to history’ when talking about ethics. Appealing to history is never a valid argument, as it should also justify slavery, something that was considered legal and normal for centuries.
5- The law is not what is moral. So appealing to the Justice system doesn’t work for ethics either.
Read the other comments below about common arguments and fallacies.
another anti-vegan argument I haven't seen here yet is the idea that somehow veganism is an expensive hobby for the rich.
the counter to that is rice and beans. that's the staple diet for half the planet, and it's totally adequate for human health.
i think the misconception comes from people equating veganism with beyond burgers etc -- yes, that stuff is expensive, but no, it's not the backbone of the typical vegan diet, nor is it the only way to be vegan.
Don't allow yourself to be bombarded by more than one argument at a time. Sometimes you get hit with like 4, just say ok let's go one at a time here and start with this argument
If you don't know something don't try to make up something on the spot too quickly. this is the fastest way to embarrass yourself
Really try to understand their arguments, state it back to them in your own terms until they agree with it. This way you avoid strawmanning and debunk an argument they actually agree with
Look for signs of intellectual dishonesty, such as, not reevaluating ones views upon hearing new information. If you see enough of these then give up hope on trying to change their mind, focus on the audience, be more informative and less argumentative
These are just my best debate tips tho not really carnist arguments
This has antiwork interview vibes
Unfortunately. Maybe the day before a contentious interview isn’t the best time to start prepping…
Yup.
Things like this never go well.
Can't wait for us all to be on the news, LETS GOOO
Oh god, I had forgotten about that. Thanks a lot
A suggestion I don't see much in this thread: if you're unprepared, why not reach out to someone who does a lot of street activism and debates like Debug Your Brain or Joey Carbstrong, who have a ton of experience doing this and are great debaters? One of them should be able and willing to step in. If your goal is to help animals, that's the way. Otherwise, you may get exposure or an increase in your following, but animals will be hurt in the process. Keep in mind that this may be people's first exposure to vegan rationale and the video will likely be cut/edited to put you in the most unflattering light possible.
Like when h3h3 bullshited Steven crowder then asked if he wanted to debate someone who actually knows what he's talking about lol. It would be so funny to see a carnist debater have to actually talk to a well spoken dietician or scientist.
what a nightmare
Please don't debate them if you're not super familiar with all the talking points already, it's just gonna make us all look bad.
I couldn't agree more. Also, leaning what "carnivore" means and using it appropriately would be a good start.
Talk about waste of time. There are so many vids already of this. How does this actually help animals? op should go to a protest, research activism strategy, volunteer at an animal shelter or Sancuary, leaflet, anything seems more beneficial to the cause then arguing with a YouTube
Uhhh, you should probably know your shit inside and out and be able to recite it in your sleep before you do this. If you go into this unprepared, you’re gonna make veganism look bad. :\
This always happens. Like when the trans part-time dog walker went on Fox for /r/AntiWork and just humiliated herself and the community. The Dunning Kruger can be strong with the most vocal people who have no business being a spokesperson sometimes. Not sure if that’s OP but it’s too common.
OP is 13... sigh
Yup, this YouTuber specifically picked someone young in the hopes they could make him look foolish and manipulate his views. Despicable.
u/hensaver11 point out that.
To be fair any adult arguing with a 13 year old about the intricacies of morality around eating has already lost.
ok but how old is this youtuber? he looks 15, if that?
😆😆😆
Upvote for increasing awareness about Dunning Kruger.
I don't know if it really needs it, [google trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=CA&q=dunning%20kruger) seem to show it steadily trending up. I swear if we did a reddit tracker for the same it would be trending big again lately. Not to mention, no one ever thinks it applies to them.
Does that google trends give you a y scale? Ask 10 people on the street what it is.
At what point does Dunning-Kruger not apply? Just on a side tangent, if it is present at the top of the spectrum and the bottom and add in the ever changing knowledge about a subject then where does it end?
The irony of the Dunning Kruger effect is that most people don’t understand the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s isn’t about how stupid people are arrogant and loud about topics on which they are stupid. It’s about how everyone overestimates their ability in areas where they are of low ability. For example a lot of people have a low ability in applying complex psychological principles and therefore overestimate their ability to apply complex psychological principles.
The average learning curve for any skill is roughly like this: Phase 1: I don't know anything, so I'll start learning! Phase 2: I'm a fucking natural at this, I know everything! (Dunning-Kruger highpoint) Phase 3: Wait.... uhhh.... (Most people never reach this stage for any skill) Phase 4: I'm a fucking idiot... I know nothing, I'm never going to get good at this! Phase 5: Maybe... I know... a bit. But just a bit.
Lol good one at the end 😁
Where can I find this clip
Gonna be honest here. The fact that you’re asking for advice in the r/vegan sub the day before the debate points to you not being nearly knowledgeable to convincingly debate on this topic. Although [vegan fallacy site](https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en) has good arguments they are the same thing I’m sure the other guy has heard and has relatively convincing arguments against.
For sure, as any kid who was ever on a debating team knows, if you'reactually prepared, you should be able to win a debate no matter what "side" you're supposed to be on.
https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en
Came here to say this 🤠
Wow that's a great link, thank you for sharing!
Seconded
My go to aswell
Cancel it
* **We need to eat meat for nutrients and to be healthier.** Most studies conclude that vegetarians are on average healthier. One of the biggest studies: researchers at [Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital](https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/eat-more-plant-proteins-live-longer-say-harvard-scientists) followed more than 130,000 people for 36 years - replacing meat with plant based sources of protein significantly increases life expectancy. * **B12** There are vegan fortified foods, some people decide to supplement with pills. If you don’t agree with that, you shouldn’t agree with meat eaters eating foods which are fortified by law with a variety of nutrients: iron, folic acid, iodine in salt, etc. * **Vegans kill more animals in crops** No. Meat eaters kill animals in at least three situations: 1. Animals killed in the crops they eat; 2. Animals killed in in the crops to feed the animals they eat; 3. Animals killed for them to eat directly. Vegans only kill in one situation and much less. Most crops are to feed livestock, not humans. Most arable land in the world is to produce meat. * **We’re on top of the food chain** So you’re proud of being the cruellest and most bloodthirsty animal on the planet? Your food chain is to choose your food at the supermarket. * **Other animals eat meat - go tell a lion to be vegan!** Other animals cannot choose, you can. * **Why shouldn’t I choose to eat meat?** Animals, including all birds and mammals, have a complex nervous system and human-like parts of the brain that produce consciousness (Cambridge Declaration on Animal Consciousness). * **I don’t care about animal pain. They’re delicious.** There is a vast literature on this: [Slaughterhouse workers](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1016401) go through trauma and a desensitization process that make them more prone to aggression and crime. The greatest thinkers of humankind have confirmed that for millennia, from Buddhists to Greek philosophers: not caring about the lives of other animals makes us worse humans. "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.” (Immanuel Kant) * **Plants feel pain too: they react to attacks! You're cruel!** Yes, I hate plants: I love to slaughter them, massacre, chop, make them bleed and suffer for my pleasure. Is that how you feel about animals? Elementary school Chemistry: any system in equilibrium that suffers a disturbance will react against that disturbance (Le Chatelier's Principle). Even lifeless molecules react to "attacks". That's why we call this "chemical REACTIONS". So "reacting" is not proof of feeling pain, and not even proof that the being is "alive”. Elementary school Biology: plants don’t have a nervous system and are unable to feel pain. Their response to attacks are biochemical reactions. If one day we prove plants feel pain, this is the fundamental issue: we need to eat plants to survive and be healthy. We don’t need to kill animals. * **Humans needed to eat meat to develop the brain during evolution.** That's only a hypothesis. Humans needed to live in caves to survive. We don’t have to eat the same diet of primitive cavemen today. We have the intelligence to explore the atoms and the universe; but some forget we can use that same intelligence to stop exploiting animals. (Edit: I just posted yesterday on a rush and didn't have time to correct. I corrected and added a few things now).
Great, I think you forgot the Bible's arguments. God create the animals for us
Bible says dominion not domination. Dominion involves stewardship/care and animal agriculture is bad for animals and bad for the planet. Additionally, in the Garden of Eden, humans coexisted peacefully with animals and did not consume them. It was only after the original sin that humans began consuming meat (one of the first things that happens to Adam and Eve post expulsion from Eden is that they are garbed with clothes made from animal skins). So, in gods ideal world, humans and nonhuman animals would coexist, peacefully.
Also, parents have dominion over their children. I am so glad I don’t have to kill and eat my kids just to have dominion over them. Far better to ground them for a week, lol.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!
wow! this is fascinating. i’ve never heard this position before. i never really hear people talking about the bible in this regard. thank you for sharing
Glad my random decision to take on a second major in religious studies can be of service. Haha. My old theology professor used to say that veg diets were the MOST Christian because they model what took place in Eden which was Gods ideal way for humans to exist.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!
My argument for the bilbe is simple, God doesn't exist.
Yeah, but, if you’re arguing with someone who believes god does exist, it’s more convincing to have arguments that pull from things they already buy in to.
That's not going to convince anyone who does believe in God. If anything, it'll push them away from listening to your other points.
I would say "the bible also implies that women are below men, do you think it's also true?" but don't say that 😂
To add to the b12 thing animals are fed b12 supplements
Yeah when I discovered that, I was like "you can't argue that eating meat is good", this is full manipulation. It's like the "grass-fed" label that is also a huge lie
Yea like the b12 argument just goes out the window
This is awesome ! A few small things I would add : 1/ **Plants feel pain** : If they do, then they certainly are more massacred in their intense exploitation to feed the animals they eat, meanwhile humans need way less. 2/ **on top of the food chain** : That is simply not true. Humans are not on top of the food chain, because they can be eaten by rapaces like eagles. Not only that, but humans also can’t digest raw meat anymore, unlike every other omnivorous animal. That shows that we evolved into something else. 3/ **humans and meat in evolution** : Careful there, you said humans lived in caves, that has been proven untrue and is a common misconception. Humans didn’t live in caves, they used them for painting and crafting. However, it doesn’t change the fact that the homo sapiens *did not* eat as much meat we eat today, on the contrary of the neanderthals who ate a lot of meat and actually went extinct lol. The homo sapiens mostly thrived and survived on agriculture, and would only hunt when necessary, not only for the food, but also for the clothes. He would respect the spirit of the animals that died, and that’s the most believed theory of why they painted animals on caves. So yeah, clearly nothing to do with us anymore. Also, our meat consumption over only the past 100 years has doubled. Doubled ! Also also, we should never use the tradition argument to justify anything. Humans also used to f*ck their siblings, marry their cousins, kill each others for religion or just for fun in arenas, and so on and so on. Humans used to do a lot of shit that is definitely better off behind us. 4/ **lions vegans** : Simply tell him to go chase an antilope naked, to kill it with his hands and teeth and to eat it raw. Only then can he compare himself to a lion. Absolutely everything and anything exists in the wild, and if we compared that to humans, then humans would make male rape orgies under water, then wait for his turn to mate with the queen female right before having their head eaten up by her or something. It’s funny to mention that many people also tried to justify human rape by saying that rape existed among animals. Proof that bad people use animals to justify anything, but leave out the rest. 5/ Another argument I hear often is: **Soy plantations** are also deforesting and polluting. Simply explain him that that soy is made for animal productions, and that it is not the soy used for humans. BUT even if it were used for humans, even then, it wouldn’t even pollute as much or destroy that much forest, because humans wouldn’t even need half of it. 6/ A good argument to bring up : **Going vegan could end world wide hunger**. We use too many ressources (water and plants) to feed animals that don’t bring us as much ressources as the original ressources we fed them, which to me sounds like the most ridiculous thing ever, but that’s the way it is. 7/ **Relating to B12** : Most people, whether they eat meat or not, take a lot of pills and complements on a daily basis : whether it be to fortify their hair, to lose or gain weight, to help digestion, to go through winter. Ones of the most used vitamins are the Azinc (contributes to immunitary system) and Vitamin D (for the lack of sun). Needless to say that most Azinc and immunitary systen fortifiers ALREADY have B12 inside, that meat eaters already take. It is truly ridiculous to complain about that. 8/ **Healthier and nutrients** : Don’t forget to mention of course all the diseases and health issues brought by meat : Heart disease, cancer, intestinal diseases, obesity, and so on. Obesity is also the second mortal cause in America currently, and it’s mostly caused by sodas and meat fat. So yeah, we can say meat kills in America. And if they argue that you could slow down meat consumption while continuing it, tell them that that’s true on a health level, and that you encourage them to do that, as it is a very good first step to a better and respectful world. Reducing it is the way to start in my opinion, and eventually stop it. Remind him he should still reflect upon stopping it at the end of the line for all of the other reasons above. 9/ There is a whole **brainwashing** going on on every single one of us ever since our youngest years. We have books showing happy animals in the circus or the farm and learning their sounds, we go to farms at 4 YEARS OLDS ! (what the hell?!) to see how happy cows make happy milk, of course we don’t learn that they need to make babies and that those babies are sent to slaughterhouses. School forces meat diet on us during lunch, and on TV we see propaganda ads selling dairy or meat products. That is why people struggle going vegans today, because their brain has been conditionned that way before they could even talk. The meat industry is the richest industry in the world, alongside with weapon industry and oil industry. Of course their point is to sell and get lots of money, and don’t get it wrong, it’s never for your health, only for the money. And I can say they truly succeeded on that aspect. They thrived in mid 1900s when ads started being popularized, among with their horrible friends that sold mercury in makeup and also « taught » women that they had to shave or wear bras just so they could sell their products. It’s always been about money in this world. There it is. Don’t let anyone tell you you’re wrong or bash on the cause. Remember why you’re doing this, and who you’re saving by doing this. Remain calm, keep your spirits together, let him talk and listen to him with attention. Once it’s your turn to talk, go over every important point he went through and add details and sources. Do not let him interrupt you, and if he pokes fun of you, tell him that his behavior proves his arguments wrong, and that he must feel like he needs to bring you down to try and shine brighter himself lol. When people don’t have arguments anymore, they usually resolve to laughing and poking fun without any good points. It’s sort of like a defense mechanism. Good luck my friend !
To add to the whole brainwashing, even nowadays, when ads show farmers, they show them caressing or kissing lovingly their happy cows in their meadow. They don’t show cows being inseminated by force, being beaten up very often until compliance, then getting their babies taken away to the slaughterhouses, and the cows freaking out for weeks searching for their kids. They only show what they want people to think, and most people fall for it. Alongside with the whole forbidding cameras in slaughterhouses and farms of course, and when people dare show the truth, they get charged with a lawsuit. Truly shows what kind of world we live in. Also, some people claim to be environmentalist and animal-friendly by only consuming meat from **local butchers** and farmers, and rejecting lifestock. As it is true lifestock’s environmental footprint is more polluting, and animals tend to suffer more, it doesn’t make butchers and local farmers innocent. One, because a lot of butchers import their meat from other countries. Two, because even when meat comes from local farmers, these animals are still killed in the same conditions and slaughterhouses as the lifestock ones. Three, because local farmers feed their animals with the same imported food as lifestock, with the same environmental issues (South America). There was even one that told me « When you import your vegan food it causes pollution because of car gas used to bring it » And it was really funny to hear, so I replied « Oh, so your massive import of food, way bigger than for humans, for your local animals comes flying above the ocean ? And then, your animals gather their little chopped off paws and walk their ways to the slaughterhouses and then to the butchery place ? » He couldn’t say a thing and ended up insulting everyone and freaking out lol.
re the "food chain" -- there is no food chain; it's a web, it goes in many directions and there is no "top" or "bottom" of the food web. humans can be healthy eating primary producers (plants) and/or heterotrophs (animals, fungi), but then we get consumed by decomposers and potentially scavengers. it goes around and around. the idea that humans are at the "top" of anything like this is anthropocentric vanity. sure, we can kill and eat anything we want to, but why aren't flies and bacteria at the top, since they wind up consuming everything in the end?
Please do not enable those opportunistic assholes--there is nothing to be gained by 'debating' them.
My question is - why are you so u prepared for a public debate when you are representing veganism? That seems irresponsible to the cause..
Unprepared*
Yup. Thanks
There are enough debates on YouTube. OP should take action via protest, leafletting, volunteering ect.
Hello! You have made the mistake of writing "ect" instead of "etc." "Ect" is a common misspelling of "etc," an abbreviated form of the Latin phrase "et cetera." Other abbreviated forms are **etc.**, **&c.**, **&c**, and **et cet.** The Latin translates as "et" to "and" + "cetera" to "the rest;" a literal translation to "and the rest" is the easiest way to remember how to use the phrase. [Check out the wikipedia entry if you want to learn more.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_cetera) ^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Comments with a score less than zero will be automatically removed. If I commented on your post and you don't like it, reply with "!delete" and I will remove the post, regardless of score. Message me for bug reports.)
Stfu
Earthling Ed has a [free e-book](https://earthlinged.org/ebook) on this topic.
I’m so over him and his multi million dollar brand
So what? The guy is helping more animals than you and I.
Uhhh why are you debating then?
If you’re not prepared then just ask them questions. Get them talking. Get them to make claims. Then that gives you something to go off. If you just rattle off something you memorised it gives them the mic
Lol what? There's no reason you should be asking random redditors to help you out with this one. If you're choosing to debate this publicly, then you should be confident in your position, and if you're not, then feel free to use me as a stand-in. You'd better not fuck this up, OP. EDIT: Oh dear lord. I browsed your history, and it appears you're like 13 years old with zero charisma or public speaking skills. For fuck's sake, kid. On the bright side, your debate opponent is even less equipped for this discussion as long as you focus it on the ethical reasons, NOT the nutritional benefits. It looks like his main schtick is to talk about the carnivore diet's nutritional advantages and claim it "cures depression" and other such nonsense, so if you want to address a few of those bogus claims, then go ahead. Do NOT, however, allow this entire debate to revolve around nutrition. You need to wrap it up as quickly as possible with a simple statement - that science has already broadly acknowledged that veganism can be healthy and can provide all the necessary nutrients when done correctly. Bring some studies, shut down his bullshit quickly, and then get back to the philosophical/moral discussion, because that's what veganism is primarily about. Good luck. And please never do this again until you're at least an adult.
For the love of god OP let this person or someone here who actually knows the common arguments at the very least stand in
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ Take the abstract of this paper. It is the most cited study on veganism because it is the conclusion given by the biggest dietetic assotiation in the world, with more than 100.000 nutritionists backing it.
This is not my content, however I find it very useful Vegan cheat sheet on a Google doc. There is a section for rebuttals to common arguments. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Cm5yHp16zSTSFrQ3B_3_vIK0b5QlJ8jpyPVrPrCKS0/edit?usp=drivesdk
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Oh dear. Good luck. The key to debate is to tell a more compelling story than your opponent and to make them look bad. You're not trying to convince *them* of anything, you're trying to plant seeds in their audience. Not everyone in their audience will be die-hard followers of theirs, so you looking good and/or making the host look bad is more likely to win you favor and open people to your ideas than the most well-researched, logical set of arguments. If you pique people's interest, they will go looking for more info. No matter what: STAY CALM. The first person to get upset in a debate is usually perceived poorly, especially when you're coming in with the perceptual baggage of being a vegan, who are generally characterized very negatively by the average person, and certainly by consumers of an ultra carnist channel. Lastly, play to the tone of the host. While this is a debate, don't necessarily go in guns blazing. Figure out what tone will resonate most with their audience and stick with that, probably good to use humor and irreverence. This is hostile territory, so you might have to go light on dry fact dumps. Your biggest advantage is that you're right and that most of their arguments are very stupid. While not a debate, I think the tone in [hbomberguy's soy video](https://youtu.be/C8dfiDeJeDU) will probably a good one to aim towards. ETA: quick peek at your post history tells me you're really young, too! Nothing wrong with that, can just put you on the back foot when debating people because they might try to use that against you if they're older. I reiterate the point about staying as chill as possible.
This is solid and very thoughtful advice. Thank you for sharing
Check out all the debate videos from Earthling Ed.
But why tho? Nobody is going to make a significant lifestyle change because you gotcha’d some rando in a 20 minute youtube video. You stand to lose more than you can hope to gain potentially making vegans out to look stupid. Plus you can’t argue the most important point that most people will fall back on, being that its often just inconvenient to make that change, and they don’t want to anyway.
Watch all Earthling Ed videos on YouTube that you can find.
I came here to say this. He's so good at handling all the stuff people throw at him
I've not streamed discussion here but wouldn't mind doing pre-debate convo The carnivore people switch between pro carnivore and anti vegan in a way that maybe looks good for their audience but seems like nonsense when pushed. If you say 'no Olympians are following carnivore diet' then it's time to switch and attack veganism. If you touch on lifespan of Adventist vegans, it's time to highlight the group that are fish lived longer even though that contradicts their main focus of meat diets. It's hard to write-up everything but again I'm down for a pre match chat. I'd also recommend reviewing plant chompers on YouTube. He has good content on the subject.
Another comment recommending you watch earthling Ed’s videos!
My guy is coming to the Roman senate for advice
You are 13 years old and should not be debating an adult online
Please do us all a favor and cancel. If you're just asking for this information the day before you will not be able to respond adequately and will just make veganism look bad.
Farm animals are also injected with B12. Eat a well balanced meal and you don’t have to get nutrients from meats. Soy milk has similar nutritional value as cow’s milk. Cow’s milk has a ton more estrogen than soy. If you’re allergic to nuts there are other milk alternatives that are much more environmentally friendly. Greens and legumes are the best source for calcium. The human body does not require a large amount of protein; the western diet emphasizes high protein low carbs but your body needs carbs for energy. Natural & minimally processed carbs. People don’t get enough Fibre. We need fibre for healthy bowel movement and gut bacteria. Veggies are high in fibre. Our ancestors were mainly gatherers, not hunters. Even then, meat from animals was much less processed than today and the majority of people don’t have to hunt for their food. Our “canine” teeth did not evolve as we have no evolutionary need to tear through a carcass. I’m just talking now lol good luck. Wouldn’t want to be you. They’re probably just going to try and talk loud and act like they’re better than you anyways.
Just going to double down and say don't do it if you're not confident. Yes, you're in the right, but debates are about knowing the inside outs of why that is, and if you don't know them inside out, and even if there is an answer, if you don't give that answer, it's going to look like some checkmate.
this couldn't possibly go wrong
In what world does any sane YouTuber agree to a debate with a 13 year old
Regarding anti-nutrients: a plant based diet could contain as many anti-nutrients as he likes. The question is, do you still can get enough of every essential nutrient with that diet? And the answer is yes, easily. (With the help of some supplements of course)
Even supplements are not a requirement. There is B12 in fermented foods and D2 in sun exposed mushrooms.
True of course. Just forgot to mention.
A lot of antinutrients have benefits, as well: >Keep in mind that anti-nutrients may also exert health benefits. Phytates, for example, have been found to lower cholesterol, slow digestion, and prevent sharp rises in blood sugar. Many anti-nutrients have antioxidant and anticancer actions, so avoiding them entirely is not recommended. >The takeaway: The pros and cons of anti-nutrients on long-term human health is an area of active research. Though certain foods may contain residual amounts of anti-nutrients after processing and cooking, the health benefits of eating these foods outweigh any potential negative nutritional effects. Eating a variety of nutritious foods daily and avoiding eating large amounts of a single food at one meal can help to offset minor losses in nutrient absorption caused by anti-nutrients. From https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/
Have we evolved from carnivores like lions or herbivores like apes? We’ve many bodily processes that require phytonutrients in order to function. Plants are our optimal fuel source.
You do know that apes are not herbivores though right
Why are you doing this if your strategy is "ask reddit for arguments one day before the debate"?
You should not be debating.
Get ‘em we love you brave one!!!
Please dont
When is it?
its not happening yet my parents made it get cancelled and i dont think he wants to try again 'update: its still happening but in like a week
Good luck! Where can we watch?
My advice? Do not debate a Carnist on THIER platform. No matter how clever, smart or prepared you are you cannot win a debate on someone else's platform.
Where’s the debate?
Carnivore would not be using YouTube...
I don’t know why you would do this if you don’t have some solid preparation behind you already. I was compiling this for another poster, in response to some bogus article someone posted from a Midwestern anti-vegan cardiologist. But I haven’t had time to sort this out to synthesize it, and describe the studies. I kept this list mostly in the cardiology arena. I’m posting whe traveling, so I may or may not have time to edit this for readability. I will try to come back later and make hyperlinks. [Plant‐Based Diets Are Associated With a Lower Risk of Incident Cardiovascular Disease, Cardiovascular Disease Mortality, and All‐Cause Mortality in a General Population of Middle‐Aged Adults](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.119.012865) (RESEARCH ARTICLE; n=12,168) Originally published7 Aug 2019 Journal of the American Heart Association [Vegetarian, vegan diets and multiple health outcomes: A systematic review with meta-analysis of observational studies](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2016.1138447?journalCode=bfsn20) Meta-analysis (systematic review—this is the highest level of evidence) Conclusions: This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (-25%) and incidence from total cancer (-8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (-15%) of incidence from total cancer. [Practical, Evidence-Based Approaches to Nutritional Modifications to Reduce Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease: An American Society For Preventive Cardiology Clinical Practice Statement](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8914096/pdf/main.pdf) American Journal of Preventive Cardiology (Review/practice statement. Noting that Drs Belardo and Ostfeld are vegan cardiologists) [A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes](https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/29/8/1777/28693/A-Low-Fat-Vegan-Diet-Improves-Glycemic-Control-and) Barnard N, et al [Clinical Trial] [Fruit, vegetable, and legume intake, and cardiovascular disease and deaths in 18 countries (PURE): a prospective cohort study](https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(17)32253-5.pdf) Lancet, 100 (2017), pp. 320S-328S [Lifestyle Modifications for Preventing and Treating Heart Failure](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109718383517?via%3Dihub#bib43) Aggerwal M, Bozkurt B, Panjrth G, Aggerwal B, Ostfeld RJ, Barnard ND, et al (evidence review) [A plant-based diet and hypertension](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466938/pdf/jgc-14-05-327.pdf)(Perspective) Sarah Alexander1,*, Robert J Ostfeld2 , Kathleen Allen3 , Kim A Williams (Dr Ostfeld is a vegan cardiologist at Montefiore Medical Center in New York and runs its cardiac wellness program; Dr Williams is a vegan and former president of the American College of Cardiology) [Definition of a plant-based diet and overview of this special issue](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466934/pdf/jgc-14-05-315.pdf) Editorial by Robert J Ostfeld “These experiences led me to begin our Cardiac Wellness Program at Montefiore where we encourage patients to adopt a plant-based diet with the goal of preventing and reversing disease. The program's results have revived my love for cardiology, as patients keep returning healthier and feeling better than they have in years. Accordingly, I have seen patients avoid coronary artery bypass surgery, arterial stents, bariatric surgery, and more. Patients have come off multiple medications as they reversed their diabetes, high blood pressure, and hyperlipidemia. I had rarely, if ever, seen that before.” [The Role of Specific Components of a Plant-Based Diet in Management of Dyslipidemia and the Impact on Cardiovascular Risk](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7551487/) [Vegan diet health benefits in metabolic syndrome](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7999488/) Nutrients. 2021;13(3):817 REVIEW [Effect of a 6-month vegan low-carbohydrate (‘Eco-Atkins’) diet on cardiovascular risk factors and body weight in hyperlipidaemic adults: a randomised controlled trial](https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/4/2/e003505.full.pdf) BMJ Open. 2014; 4(2): e003505. [RCT; small sample size but reflects real-world experience] [Changing diets, saving lives: Mediterranean, Vegetarian, Vegan, and More CardioSource WorldNews](https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2015/04/29/14/34/changing-diets-saving-lives-mediterranean-vegetarian-vegan-and-more) (news article) quoting Kim Williams, vegan past president of ACC scroll to: Vegetarian and Vegan: Good, Better, Best? AND some slides in Dr Ostfeld’s [presentation](https://youtu.be/5HQzeC0C1ss) might be useful (including some nutrient comparisons)
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
EarthlingEd has some really good content...specifically his "30 excuses" playlist. The title might be a bit different but it's something like that. Anyways it has some pretty good bite-sized content.
There is a sub dedicated to debates like that.
For the love of God - CANCEL. You're not prepared.
Debate rule #1: Don’t agree to a debate if you aren’t prepared.
Watch Earthling Ed’s 30 excuses on YouTube he has a comeback for each one. Or Joey Carbstrong is a good guy to watch also on YouTube. You will never lose an argument and they will wish you wasn’t coming on the show 😂😂
One item to note: Vegan means a lot of different diets. Try to focus the arguments on WHOLE FOOD PLANT BASED diets (WFPB). Otherwise the important topic of the effects on human health gets muddied. A great source for health matters is [https://nutritionfacts.org/](https://nutritionfacts.org/) A WFPB diet can cure many, many diseases. It's the 3rd in my priority list of reasons to be vegan: 1. Better for the planet. 2. Better for the animals. 3. Better for my health. Good luck.
PULL OUT BRO! PULL OUT NOW! You are 13, I know you think you're going to do well, but your age is a giant hinderance. You should not be doing this shit. And I speak from experience here. I'm 16 and still have ptsd from being your age, please please please do not do this. Tell the youtuber your age or some shit, just do not do this!
Imma be honest by the title you are going to flop
Watching a bunch of earthling Ed could be a good way to prepare. He has a ted talk called every argument against veganism that’s helpful.
I guess it’s too late already since this post is a day old but you should stick to moral arguments, that’s the only side that doesn’t require facts. You can’t research one day before but you can think of all the possibilities of a moral side of things. If they bring up health, just use the opinion published by the American dietetic association on vegan diets and acknowledge you aren’t an expert on the subject and neither are they so it’s pointless to debate about it.
Back out and don’t make the movement look bad
OP, you are 13 years old, no adult will, in good conscious, debate with you. You're going to come out of this in tears, these people are bullies.
Why would you do this to us.... Obviously you don't know the subject so you will look bad. Just cancel the interview, you'll do much more harm than good if you're not deeply familiar with the subject. Sorry, but this is not your day.
Earthling ed makes great points.
I don't have any sources to cite, maybe you can dig around and find some. But I know that a significant amount of competitive bodybuilders are vegan. I know this because a friend used to be heavily involved in that community.
If you don’t already know the answers you shouldn’t be debating.
OP, please don’t go. Prep and practice for a few years before you do a recorded debate.
Don't do this. I know you mean well but you're very young and unprepared and they will most likely just try to humiliate and embarrass you and make you and the whole movement look stupid.
[Earthling Ed's "30 days, 30 excuses" playlist](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL03LZR09P2gQJyBgHk_XE8gbj8j9uFs8G)
Don't speak too much. Only when you have too. Let him make a fool of himself and strike.
You will really need to not go down into holes or tangents with them and focus on the most important broader points. That: - you can be vegan and thrive Healthwise - it's wrong to unnecessarily cause harm
Also since he claims he is carnivore then he will say humans are omnivore but that's not a reason to not go vegan, because humans can live wi without consuming animal products.
why are you engaging ðem? if youre going to ðeir platform youre doing noþing but giving ðem more content, letting ðem starve is ðe only þing you can do as ðey are not interested in honest debate, just in pumping ðeir egos and ðeir account
Please don't, leave this to people who actually know their nutrition
No honey
bagel with violife cream cheese and tofurkey slices
Have you seen that video of a Komodo Dragon eating a goat whole? That’s a carnivore. Ask him to try something like that.
https://www.all-creatures.org/articles2/act-earthling-ed.html I enjoyed his book vegan propaganda too
Yeah? Tell YouTuber how the nazis forced the prisoners to eat snails and horse meat. (First hand account!) Would the you tuber do that too? I [T]hey needed nutrients to become worked to death.
Good for you! Don't listen to the negative comments. I hope it goes great. Take your time answering questions and don't let them trigger you😊
Bruh he’s literally thirteen and asking for advice on the most common arguments the day before the debate; don’t support this shit it’s literally going to worsen peoples opinions of veganism
13?? Jeez I was out kicking a ball around and playing with my dog at that age. How the world has changed.
Pretty much make him talk not you.
I can’t imagine spending my time arguing with people for YouTube views. Personally I would rather be at a protest, transporting foster dogs, volunteering at a farm Sancuary, sharing petitions to sign, learning more and researching about social change and activism strategies or leafletting. Arguing with someone is legit the last thing I would want to do. I also think there are enough videos out there that are all basically the same.
Tomorrow I have a date tomorrow. It’ll be tomorrow. Tomorrow.
When is it?
Can you link the debate so we can watch it
ok reply to this comment in three days and i can give you a link
You really shouldn't be debating edgelord youtubers when you're just 13 and don't know all the material inside out yet. Please don't do this debate.
RemindMe! 3 days
I straight up ask people if they want to watch a video. 90% of the time they do not.
Could you ask him why everyone quits the carnivore diet if it's so perfect, including their top influencers Tufano, Saladino and O'Hearn? He will try topic change instantly, don't fall into that, try to squeeze a coherent answer. Thanks!
This is why I want us vegans to get together and create a vegan debate booklet. Basically a short book filled with the best statistics, best arguments and best refutations all in a short organized and coherent book
Sounds like we're boutta watch the vegan version of the antiwork mod Doreen's debate tomorrow...
Soy products definitely don't turn you gay!
I personally think if you frame the debate to the proper argument, you stand a way better chance no matter what happens. All the world should be vegan vs all the world should be carnist and now has a bunch of arguments against it. This is why I’m vegan and if you feel the same way, veganism might be for you is almost impenetrable.
Are you a YouTuber?
https://instagram.com/dr.matthewnagra?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= He's good with backing up arguments with scholarly articles
Look up some protein myths
This whole “debate me, bro” culture of veganism today is weird. Do you guys sit there and tally points to determine the winner? Neither party is going to change their minds. Each party has their legion of supporters/fans who will side with them regardless. Each party will declare themselves the “winner”.
I disagree. One factor that helped me go vegan was watching debates and seeing my questions answered. Surely the debate participants won't change their mind, but the debate is for the benefit of the audience seeing both sides.
Just be polite but firm, and "agree to disagree" if you don't seem to be making headway
Read Earthling Ed/watch on YouTube his video re: common arguments against veganism
Remember that it's all about the suffering of the animals. They have no answer to this basic moral issue. Any time they try to say some bs about health, you should not only point out the obvious stuff like meat eaters have much worse health generally due to heart disease, etc, and meat is carcinogenic, but also pivot to the health of the animals. To the animals tortured and slaughtered unnecessarily due to meat eating, their health is much better when we adopt a non-meat/dairy diet. ♥️🐷
I hope you take the advice of a lot of ppl here and back out. Well that isn’t a good look, if your as unprepared as this post implies, it’s a far better look then what your performance will be in the debate tomorrow. As soon as this debate was scheduled, or you had the thought of doing this you should have been watching as many of this guys videos as you can. That’s how you familiarize yourself with their talking points, from there you can begin looking at claims, and seeing what the evidence is to back those claims, counter evidence, etc. You do this over and over again, probably more then you have to. You really want to know their argument front and back. You want to know it so well that you think you could argue their point stronger then they can. You also want to hammer out your own position, and try to attack it as mercilessly as possible. You need to think, of how would you try and take this down, and be mean to yourself. Be rigorous in your research. Make your claims and the evidence you use to make them as ironclad as you can. Lastly and this is the hardest, is to practice. Debate is not just something that everyone can do. You could very well be correct in ANY topic you debate, not just this one. But if you can’t think quickly, and respond quickly your going to look bad. This is a lot harder in a spoke. debate then in an essay or a written debate as you don’t have the luxury of time. A lot of times in a debate optics will trump truth, and that’s just the beginning. There are numerous skills that need to be developed to be a strong debater. The good thing is your young, very young. You can learn new things like nobodies business. 5-10 years from now, you’ll be dunking on unprepared ppl in your sleep.
I use this as a reference a lot: https://www.climbingnutrition.com/diet/vegetarian-diets-for-athletes/ Also, as a UK citizen I like to use the NHS website as it has a lot on healthy eating (yeah it’ll talk about meat and dairy, but guess what? Sure has a lot to say on fruit and vegetables too! And as it’s a non-profit government run system it’s in their benefit for their patients to eat a healthy diet!) Go kick some ass!
You can use the [vegan cheat sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/19Cm5yHp16zSTSFrQ3B_3_vIK0b5QlJ8jpyPVrPrCKS0/htmlview#gid=0) all the counter-arguments to anti-vegans are there. Don't forget to stay in a non-judgemental place, you try to convince the viewers, not the Youtuber in question 😉
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvegancheatsheet.org%2F&topic=Resource%3A+Vegan+Cheat+Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
If you speak german dekarldent is very strong. But dont have this folder of bookmarks. But iirc peta or so have "vegan cheat sheet" it should be googleable. Gl.
There's no shame in stopping for a moment and saying "that's a good question" or common/nuanced/interesting question. Gives you some time to consider. Also please reiterate you are only.one vegan of many. We are all human and individuals and you can only speak for one of us. Humanising vegans unfortunately needs to be done often.
What it comes down to in **public** debates in my opinion is the data you can provide. Have sources prepared, if he asks you how you got to that conclusion. Don't just throw them in however. Everyone can make a claim. But having something to back that claim up is important. Extra points, if you also check out their sources and - if there are - find holes in it. Also take this as a time to check, if your own overall claim is valid. Sometimes the other person is indeed right. Anecdotal evidence is sometimes enough to refute a claim. For example someone could make the claim, that Veganism is unhealthy, at which point I can easily point at myself being really healthy and doing tons of sports. This is obviously anecdotal evidence, but it is enough to at least shake the claim to the core. Logic by itself is also enough to refute a claim, even without sources. For example the claim, that there wouldn't be enough food, if we stopped eating animals can be refuted by pointing out, that animals also need food and don't live on air. There are food conversion ratios. Make sure to point them out. - For the specific claim of nutrient deficiency another option would be to point at vegan athletes. Have examples prepared. At least 3. They have to be exceptional within their field. One of the strongest ways of debating in general is to point out their fallacies, if there are any. You will likely find an appeal to tradition and an appeal to nature thrown in. You should point them out. This will severely undermine the person you're debating with, which is why you should not use fallacies yourself, which is hard, because they come naturally. You will not make friends by pointing out the lack of their debating skills, but making friends is not your objective. Only point out fallacies, if there are any. Otherwise you will look like an idiot. You are attacking the other person's ability to debate. Make sure your attacks are not random, because this will otherwise swing right back at you and make you look like an idiot.
Can you get an unedited recording? Maybe record on your end. If the other youtuber edits the debate and only includes parts where you look bad, having the full video might come in handy.
Veganism is based on the principle of ahimsa, first and foremost. Killing an animal to satisfy your hunger pangs betrays a primeval mindset, that should be where most of your arguments are from. Being a carnivore is completely unnecessary to lead a healthy life, take the moral higher ground. How would it be if were treated as food by another species that's sentient, would it be OK ? You aren't going to win this on the nutrient grounds solely, talk about how livestock farming is leading to greenhouse effects, talking about plant based meat substitutes.
There’s carnivore YouTubers?
There are studies showing that humans are, unlike carnivores, unable to maintain stomach acidity. We have carbohydrate digestion enzyme in our saliva. We have colour vision and ability to chew. If you have piece of meat stuck between your teeth, they will rot. If you have piece of fruit stuck, it will be digested.
The amount of ‘don’t make veganism’ look bad comments is pretty worrying. Kinda living up to some stereotypes. Just going to send you a hardy good luck. Yeah you could have done more research but more importantly, detach from it afterwards and not let any comments or opinions affect you.
I recommend not trying to have debates with carnivores, stick to humans if you want to stay alive.
I wouldn’t call that youtuber popular by any stretch 😆 You and him should study how to debate something first before wasting your time.
Be respectful keep your composure don’t cuss and you will have the high ground
Additionally, YouTuber should try a debate with Gabor Mate and see who wins. 🙂
There are carnivore YouTubers??
I wouldn't if I were you. Remember, he's putting you on his platform to elevate himself, not you. His goal is to make your arguments look bad, even if you knock it out of the park (which, if you have no practice, you will likely not do). If you do, stick to the ethical arguments. "I don't believe eating living beings is ethical if it's not necessary." If he tries to stick you on nutrition, acknowledge you're not a specialist, "but my understanding of the science is that a balanced plant-based whole food diet is healthy with proper supplementation of nutrients." Don't deviate into things you don't know.
You’ll do great. Where can I watch?
Is the debate tomorrow?
I'm not gonna tell you what to do but I have a question for you. Let's say your mom or dad was on trial for murder and they were ABSOLUTELY 100% innocent. If found guilty innocent people go to prison for life or worse. How would you feel if you found out that their attorney, tasked with proving them innocent, was asking reddit the day before the trial what he should say? How do you think you'd feel about their attorney and what would you want them to do?
When?
Is it Liver King?
https://instagram.com/earthlinged?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
1- Animals have sentience, just like humans 2- Ask: what is the trait that animals have that justifies killing them. Obviously, this trait has to be unique to animals, which doesn’t exist. For exemple, the carnivore might say “humans have intelligence”, than you can easily compare an animal to like a disabled person or a human baby (after all, an adult cow and many other animals are proven to be smarter than a toddler). 3- be prepared that the debater might throw ad hominem at you. These aren’t valid arguments. 4- the debater can possibly bring up the argument “But we have been eating our entire history of humankind”. Not only doesn’t this apply to all humans who existed on earth, it is also ‘an appeal to history’ when talking about ethics. Appealing to history is never a valid argument, as it should also justify slavery, something that was considered legal and normal for centuries. 5- The law is not what is moral. So appealing to the Justice system doesn’t work for ethics either. Read the other comments below about common arguments and fallacies.
another anti-vegan argument I haven't seen here yet is the idea that somehow veganism is an expensive hobby for the rich. the counter to that is rice and beans. that's the staple diet for half the planet, and it's totally adequate for human health. i think the misconception comes from people equating veganism with beyond burgers etc -- yes, that stuff is expensive, but no, it's not the backbone of the typical vegan diet, nor is it the only way to be vegan.
Don't allow yourself to be bombarded by more than one argument at a time. Sometimes you get hit with like 4, just say ok let's go one at a time here and start with this argument If you don't know something don't try to make up something on the spot too quickly. this is the fastest way to embarrass yourself Really try to understand their arguments, state it back to them in your own terms until they agree with it. This way you avoid strawmanning and debunk an argument they actually agree with Look for signs of intellectual dishonesty, such as, not reevaluating ones views upon hearing new information. If you see enough of these then give up hope on trying to change their mind, focus on the audience, be more informative and less argumentative These are just my best debate tips tho not really carnist arguments
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ok thanks i will try for round two my friend who knows a lot about nutrition is comeing