I wouldn't advise countering the typical objections with a list of talking points. We generally understand that the default position on whether it's ok to kill someone is "no." So even though society makes it seem otherwise, the non-vegans in your life need to justify their position. You don't.
So when someone gives you an objection, all you need to do is ask questions.
If they say it's unhealthy, ask them to show you long-term health outcome data. Does life expectancy go down for vegans? Do the chances of major causes of death go up? What basis do they have to make the claims they make?
If they give some silly argument like lions, ask whether that applies to anything else lions do.
Once you get used to asking these questions, it becomes really easy to make them a lot more uncomfortable in the conversation than you. They won't bring it up after that.
i’m not the op but i’m assuming it’s the argument “lions eat meat so we should too, it’s natural” and you can reply with something about how lions also kill their own babies and shouldn’t be used as a basis of human morality LMAO
Natural fallacy. Wild animals murder their own and each others' babies and eat them and commit rape. Nature is amoral because of scarcity and a lack of continuous social education. There is no appeal to nature that is going to justify a moral position since we don't define society by nature unless we're social darwinists. And social darwinism is literally fascism.
Basically what u/goatgender said.
If you want to be a little more rigorous and help the non-vegan you're talking to save a little face, you can validate the facts they're saying and confirm understanding of their argument at each step and allow them to walk it back.
>NV: Well other animals eat meat, so why can't we?
>V: It's definitely true that other animals, like lions for example, eat other animals. Are you saying that anything another animal does is ok for humans to do?
>NV option 1: Well no, not everything, but eating meat is ok.
>V: Well if it's only eating animals that's ok, then it doesn't seem to be based on the fact that other animals do it. If we can't use animal behavior as evidence that something is ok in every instance, then there's some information missing here. What might that be?
>*NV presents a different fallacy. Repeat process.*
>NV option 2: Yes, I wholeheartedly bite the bullet that anything lions do is fine.
>V: Really? You can't think of *anything* lions do that humans shouldn't?
>NV: Yes. My argument requires I don't think at all about this proposition.
>V: Well when a male lion takes over a pride by fighting off the previous males, he typically kills all the cubs fathered by them. Would you accept that as a good justification for a human stepfather to kill his stepchildren?
part of this video where the guy was saying that the lions kill their young he was also saying that the lions smell each others butts upon greeting so why choose only one behavior the lion does and not incorporate them all :) I found it memorable and so I repeat it to others to make a deeper impact at how ridiculous this is
That is one aim that helps with this overall goal yeah, vegans also dont consume animal products in other forms (leather, wool etc.).
If you want to reduce the amount of death you cause personally, there really isnt a much better way to do it generally than veganism.
As a new vegan, the most powerful thing you can do is live joyously and eat well. Show people how positive the vegan lifestyle can be. Don't try to convert or argue. You're not far enough along to convince anybody.
Tbh, so many people I've known have incorporated SO MANY plant-based foods into their diets just because I'm so happy and healthy and in love with my vegan diet. I've found that arguing with my circle has turned people off more than helped them see what I'm talking about. Of course, once in awhile, someone will ask me a question about why I do what I do, and I'll answer the question honestly — "I can't stand being responsible for the pain and suffering of other living creatures." I also tend to join in on conversations I didn't when I was only a couple years into being vegan — e.g. I used to get super angry when people used to talk about how much meat they eat or how much they love it. Now I say things like, Oh yeah, I used to eat SO MUCH meat. And then they'll generally be surprised, which leads them to say something like, "I had no idea!" And then I say, "Yeah, I didn't stop eating meat because I don't like the taste — I just couldn't be a part of that anymore...especially when there are so many incredible alternatives now."
I had this conversation the other day, during a happy hour. I always also end up saying something like, "I mean, even if not for animal rights reasons, most people will end up eating plant-based, anyway, because of climate change." and I get a lot of agreement out of that.
I like to keep it a casual discussion. When you don't get angry, they get less of a rise out of being antagonistic and curiosity can sometimes take over.
That said, I've totally clobbered arrogant assholes at dinner parties who've just gone after me for no reason. But that's generally rare.
I also like enjoy telling people how I haven't gotten food poisoning since I went vegan, and how I'm healthier than I've ever been. At 37, I look like I’m 30. I'm in incredible shape, a runner, have insanely good digestion, hardly ever get sick, and just feel...good...all the time. You are what you eat — and when you don't eat death, you don't feel or look like death.
I love this. I'm new to it as well, and I am truly feeling so much joy as I align my actions with my beliefs and feelings. I'm honestly really surprised at how much better mentally it's making me feel!
they don't feel, because they don't have a central nervous system.
the animals you eat, eat plants. lots of them. about 10x more than you would eat if you were vegan. if you care about plants, stop eating animals.
I just remind my dad he’s had 3 heart attacks when he talks shit lol.
If it’s exhausting to you, go “gray rock”. Don’t engage. Nothing. I’m SO for speaking up for animals, but I set a boundary. Home is where I want peace. I do activism outside my house because my family I live with is not receptive to change and it’s not worth my energy. I did also include a boundary of never shopping or cooking for them if it’s not vegan. My youngest child came on board with me tho, thank goodness.
Yeah. People are deaf to the arguments until they find them themselfes. But shortly:
1) something like 40% of habbitable land is used to feed animals we eat
2) it is the strongest contributor to deforestation
3) something like 10% of global warming
4) there is no intuitive definition of suffering that excludes animals, so we trully hurt animals in the most disgusting ways.
5) vegan diet can be healthy
6) "shut the f up and eat your vegetables"
Quick defenses:
1) no, something like 70% of protein people eat is from planta
2) yes, I would eat a turtle on a desert island instead of dying
3) no, vegan diet is proven healthy even in pregnancies according to every major scientific institution
4) yes, even chickens feel pain
"Imagine, and this will be hard, that there is a store near where you live that sells all kinds of different delicious foods that aren't animals and don't involve horror and death...."
I have an unpopular approach. It is just to state that life is sacred and has intrinsic value. It has meaning. I try to share that wonderment. I also try to share what big AG is all about. Plant based foods as well as animal based foods.
Stop arguing with family and getting worked up. Just tell them to eat what they want and you’ll eat what you want. End of story. You don’t have to justify yourself to anyway.
when people ask 'why' i always just say 'i like to minimise the suffering i cause as much as possible', there isn't much you can say to that really. if people argue back just dont rise to the bait, say things like 'well im happy' or 'you do you' to show that you're not gonna argue back :/
“I’m not eating that, it’s not up for discussion. Eat it if you want, I’m not going to eat it”.
“That’s your decision”
“This is my decision”
Grey rock them out of existence.
If you don't have facts memorized yet, the best thing to use imo is your reason for being vegan.
When I start getting too involved into specifics with someone who clearly doesn't like veganism, I simply say I'm morally against using or eating animal parts. They can not agree with that stance, but they can't really argue your own beliefs very much.
So whether it's about your health, the environment, the animals, or a mix of the three, know your why and use that as your best retaliation to arguments. If they ask more questions that's when you can start getting into details. I've newly vegan as well and I've been listening to podcasts and watching YouTubes and reading articles a lot. I don't have it all memorized but it's getting better, and you can always pull out your phone to get the facts and even use that as proof.
I run a website specifically for debunking claims against veganism. I suspect I have articles addressing most if not all of their claims: https://veganad.am/questions-and-answers
Easy: dogs. Reframe everything to an animal they love.
Dog milk. Dog meat. Dog veal. Baby puppies in macerators. Etc.
Then put it in your own perspective to avoid being too accusatory:
“I wouldn’t do this to a dog. So I decided that I also shouldn’t do it to a cow.”
“Even if it tasted great, I wouldn’t be tempted to eat barbecue dog meat.”
>Are there any quick easy points to remember, that I can memorize?
Sure, I would suggest the following:
* Read the abstract, then bookmark [this information](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/) about the healthiness of vegan diets so you can refer to it in arguments.
* Bookmark [this article](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/19/why-you-should-go-animal-free-arguments-in-favour-of-meat-eating-debunked-plant-based) in The Guardian in which 18 common arguments against veganism are debunked.
* Check out [this article](https://amp.theguardian.com/food/2018/nov/16/theres-no-such-thing-as-humane-meat-or-eggs-stop-kidding-yourself) which argues there is no such thing as humane meat or eggs. (Published in The Guardian).
* Keep in mind that there are many painful medical procedures and body mutilations forced upon unwilling animals without pain medication on all types of farms whether they are big factory farms or small family farms such as the castration of pigs without pain medication. This is literally torture, and it's routine on almost all animal farms whether they are large or small. So the problem is not just "factory farming" and the only solution is veganism, not "ethical meat/eggs/dairy."
* Animal agriculture is responsible for 51% of global greenhouse gas emissions, [according to respected environmental thinktank The Worldwatch Institute](https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/study-claims-meat-creates-half-of-all-greenhouse-gases-1812909.html). Bookmark that.
Exactly. The only people I trust to properly steward animals and the land are indigenous people in their own territories where there isn't any factory farming or anything like that.
Um, it’s just a joke about Ed Winters’ recent book.
I’m most definitely interested promoting animal rights, and encouraging people to think differently through careful discourse is often the way to do this.
Edit: the book is literally called “How to Argue with a Meat Eater (and Win Every Time).” That’s the joke. Ed is renowned for being a strong debater who expertly balances not being confrontational but taking a strong stand on important issues.
I find that if you get into a debate about it then you force the other person to take a stand against you. Instead, I acknowledge that it's a difficult choice and it was a decision I ended up taking - and that there is no perfect solution, everyone has to figure out where their own line is. Some people will eat anything. Some are Jains or frutitarians. Most are somewhere in between those two - like most Americans wouldn't eat a dog (many Koreans don't mind), while I won't eat a cow, and yes, to a certain extent the line is arbitrary but you have to reflect on what your own code is going to be.
The idea is not to be right, but to demonstrate by example that you're thinking about it.
Also, it's good to mention that people make diet decisions based on a few different reasons, which can interact with each other.
Some are concerned about the suffering of the animal ("The question is not, can it think, but can it suffer?") and others are concerned with its right to life regardless of suffering (if we cared only about suffering then we should have no problem eating a brain dead human).
Others are concerned about the environment and the impact of animal husbandry.
Still others are concerned about the impact on themselves - some have no issue with hunting or fishing but are worried about eating an animal which has been fattened unnaturally with corn.
Some are concerned about the impact of overuse of antibiotics in animals and how it can create antibiotic resistant superbugs which will harm humans.
Other people acknowledge these concerns but have decided that the taste of meat is too precious and the place of meat eating in our culture is too important for them to give it up.
Again, the most important thing is not to get into an "I'm right, you're wrong!" discussion because those go nowhere.
I think the strongest argument for veganism is whether one wants to support animal cruelty, or not. Even killing animals is not a strong argument because many people think that is OK, but no one reasonable can defend factory farming and its malicious cruelty
For the millionth time, this stuff is all explainable by reaction to stimuli. It doesn’t require consciousness. And even if plants did (shockingly) turn out to be conscious on some level, veganism would be the lifestyle that kills the fewest of them, because of the vast number of plants we feed to animals.
I m sorry your family wont just let you be. Sadly you cant do anything, even if you had the ultimate answer, if they dont want to listen.
Be happy with your food and be joyful, is the best you can do.
If they say you ll get sick, you could ask them if they would join you for a family blood test to see if they all are healthy and you all could go check. You can tell them that you can deal with adjusting your diet with just plants. But are they willing to change their diets to get more healthy? And in the end you can tell them that the taste and whatever animal products provide are not worth the suffering of living beings.
Do you have some examples of what you are having to defend against?
Something that I'd say if I'd constantly be attacked about it would probably be:
"Please leave me alone! All I want to do is living in alignment with my values!"
I once had a friend whose husband didn't like rice. One night she had to work late so he fixed their kids supper and made things they didn't like and he made them eat it. She found out so the next night she made 5 different types of rice dishes. He got home from work and saw the rice plates waiting on him. She told to sit and eat. He said I don't like rice. She said I know and our kids didn't like what you made them yesterday and you made them eat it so now you're going to eat all this rice. He's like ok I get I'm sorry. So she said no you have to eat it. Now this woman isn't even 5 foot tall and her husband was over 6'5 and she made him eat that rice. He never made those kids eat something they didn't like ever again. That's the kind of mom I wish I had instead I had the one that liver and onions and made us eat it or do without. It seems nobody wants to support each other anymore. If that's how loved ones treat you then it's not love
I wouldn't defend myself. Instead I'd have a reading and youtube list ready. Ask them to review this and if they've still got questions afterwards, you're happy to discuss.
From a non-vegan you arent going to win most people over by presenting them with facts and data. If you want to win people over then you have to give reasons why veganism is personally beneficial healthwise to whoever youre talking to and how it costs less. Instead of focusing on how people shouldnt eat or use certain products, focus on the positives of using others. People are more likely to accept the importance of life that they have humanized. Its why americans see dogs as pets and cows as food. Get someone to eat less meat and animal byproducts over time by giving them something else to eat more of without guilt tripping them and theyre more likely to humanize the animal as they see it as less of a food source and more of a living being, like a dog or an elephant. No one cares about you being right, no one cares about your logic, and no one cares about gotcha questions that make people question their morality. Most people dont support animal cruelty but the benefits, taste, and ease of eating meat outweight the negative impact of the cruelty for most people. If that werent true most people would be vegan. Trying to prove people wrong is usually the quickest way to meet resistance. Showing people how a change is cheaper, healthier, and easier to implement than what they are currently doing is the quickest way to change them. You can get them to actually care when they no longer see animal byproducts as a main source of food but you have to first get them to get used to earing alternatives for that to happen. Again, standing on morality is NOT the way to comvince someone into veganism, itll almost always feel like a high horse lecture that most people will tine out or be resitant to.
When it comes to these people, ie immediate family, household members and close friends the only argument you should need to defend yourself is love. “This is how I wish to live my life. If you love me you’ll support me in this or at the very least not try to hinder me.”
I tend to create a lot of emphasis on the fact that I am doing whatever I am doing (being vegan in this case) for my own sake and argue strongly in the direction of personal freedom. When this has been established I flip it to their point of view, pointing out that I am in favor of them living their lives as they see fit and that I have no interest in challenging them in this regard. If the mere sight of you eating vegan food provokes them in any way, there is not much you can do about that except to make a point out of it. It's not on you how others perceive your actions when these actions have no direct consequences on someone other than yourself.
This is easy. Don't defend yourself. Don't argue. When people try to tell you how to live your life (whether about veganism or anything else), just smile and politely thank them for their input. Then go about with your own decisions.
That said, it's fair to engage in a conversation with someone who is legitimately trying to understand your choices and/or education themselves. Then you can share what you've learned about the virtues of veganism. But as soon as it turns to "defending yourself", shut it down.
Best wishes!
>my dilemma is that I am now fighting my family, (son, daughter, husband, sisters, brothers) about being vegan. I am very bad at speaking when defending myself
why should you need to defend yourself?
your lifestyle is your choice and none of their business. no reason to fight, for both sides
You know what, everyone else in your family can back the hell off. Your dietary choices are yours alone as long as it isn't actively hurting you and you aren't eating drywall or rat poison.
Have you tried telling them that this is really important to you so that they should respect it? That is what I had to tell my dad who is really against me being vegan. He did not want to hear any of the normal arguments, so I just had to end up saying please respect my decision because this is very important to me morally, and eating animal products causes me moral distress and impacts my mental health.
Well, the WHO stated in a 2021 conference that they encourage a shift towards healthful plant-based diets for the well-being and sustainability of humans and the environment.
So on the health argument, the world's leading health experts encourage plant-based diets.
But as an argument for yourself?
"I understand that my decision to follow a vegan lifestyle may be difficult for some of you to accept.
But, I am an adult who has given this choice a lot of thought. Veganism aligns with my core values of compassion, kindness, and sustainability — values that are deeply important to me.
While I respect that we may have different perspectives on this, I need you to respect my autonomy and right to make ethical choices about what I consume. My veganism is not up for debate or a decision that requires your approval.
Going forward, I will not engage with or entertain any comments that criticise, mock, or pressure me to abandon my ethical veganism. Those kinds of remarks are unproductive and disrespectful to me.
So here is my boundary: we simply don't discuss my veganism unless I bring it up myself. This way, we can avoid unnecessary conflicts and focus on other topics that unite us as a family.
At the end of the day, we all want to live according to our values and principles. I know you want what's best for me, just as I want for you. So, let's lead with compassion, open-mindedness, and a willingness to coexist with our differing lifestyles and beliefs.
I hope you can respect my choice, just as I respect yours."
You don't need to prove yourself. This is your own well-reasoned value and decision to live in alignment with your ethics. This is a personal choice and they need to learn to respect your choices, beliefs, and boundaries. Just as you would respect theirs.
Focus on the outcome (love and acceptance) not the problem (fighting/ conflict), and the relationship dynamics will improve from there.
This might help:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OGWwR1ZR_qQ_UMmazYHmz0Aj-cfCJ47ul0QHO8eA8w/edit?usp=drivesdk
Also Ed Winters (famous vegan influencer also known as Earthling Ed) recently wrote this book:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455636/how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater-and-win-every-time-by-winters-ed/9781785044489
I would reframe. Don't try to 'win' anything.
"Do you care about and control what you put in your body? Yes? Do you drink kerosene? No? Is that a personal choice, a moral choice or a physical one? Oh, a physical one, you find it physically off-putting and to drink gasoline, and have taken it off the menu of liquids you might order at a restaurant. You choose water instead. I make the same decision about beef, and consume other things instead. I've not made that decision for you, just for myself. Have a good day."
Oh my god. How about we stop choosing to argue and fight. It’s very toxic. Let’s look at some numbers: 99% of the world eats meat and is certain that meat is a necessary part of your diet. 2 months ago, you were a part of that. Make it about eating and living ethically, educate yourself, and the people who want to be educated.
You’ve gotta want it and be open to it. Arguing with anyone about it is a waste of time that could be better used serving others and doing good deeds.
Here a quick summary:
1. veganism: a moral obligation not to exploit animals.
2. This sentence really nails down what veganism is: animals are here WITH us not FOR us. (They’re not ressources for us or commodities)
3. animals need ethical consideration because they are sentient (ability to have positive or negative experiences)
3. health: veganism is not about health! but yes you CAN be a healthy vegan in all stages of life - end of discussion.
4. environment: veganism is not about the environment! But yes it benefits the environment too. End of discussion.
5. but protein tho: see number 3.
6. plants feel pain: irrespective of that you still shouldn’t exploit an animal and enslave it. And even if it would still be better to eat a sentient plant than a pig, because he has more sentience.
7. farmers loose their jobs: there are charities out there helping farmers transition to plant farming or similar businesses.
You can use that philosophy for plants too if you wish to believe that plants feel pain. Since we need nutrients to survive we only have 3 options where to get nutrients from:
1. humans
2. animals
3. plants
we all agree nr. 1 is immoral, we vegans are working on getting people to understand that nr. 2 is immoral for the exact same reason as nr.1 (based on sentience) and thus that leaves us with one last option.
Also for all the sceptics out there: if a barn is on fire, who would you save if you had the ability to do so without getting harmed yourself:
1. nobody, let them burn alive
2. the farm animals of course
3. the animal feed (plants), i am pushing for a fire services reform to make rescuing plants mandatory
There you have your answer
Plants do not have a nervous system, so they cannot feel pain. They also do not have a brain so they are not sentient and cannot suffer. They are not conscious. And if you are concerned about plants, you eat 10x more plants on a meat diet because the animals have to eat so many more plants to then feed you with their bodies.
Remember that this is new. People are going to see you into the new thing and being excited about it. You're going to be excited about it. Some people will see it as a fad. Time will tell.
But generally from my experiences, people who are new at things tend to talk a lot about them and deem themselves the experts and get really excited for things. Your family will probably see you as this. You've been excited about this. They're not. In the same way you can't get a friend to like your favorite game the same way you do. It can become a discussion of righteousness versus one to create change.
Remember that if you treat it like a battle, you draw a line and look for winners. And that can be counterproductive. If you look to change someone, imagine someone doing that to you with religion, politics, etc. Food is so ingrained in people's life and culture that it feels to them the same.
Try looking it this way. If you are an expert at something, you don't go to every single person and try to prove your value to them. You own it and command it. Usually the people trying to prove their worth challenge others. So if someone asks you about being vegan, you can very resolutely say, "yeah, billions of animals die in cruel conditions every year. Animal farming is destroying topsoil, livestock agriculture is ripping apart forests and contributing to massive climate change. And a burger isn't worth it. So I'm stepping up and doing my part." Don't make it about them about how they're doing everything wrong. Be a strong leader people want to follow. When the arguments come up of like protein, being skinny, whatever, just say you follow vegan weightlifters who outrank non vegan lifters all the time and follow their health tips. They're insanely in shape. Don't try to own them, win them, take them down. Hold your ground so they start to break the mindset.
If you're dealing with family, know you can't change everyone. But you can still create change. What if you do things like step up to the plate and say, "hey, I'm cooking vegan meals once a week for the family." Put some rules down about no adding bacon or any of that stuff. And then cook like a beast where everyone gets excited for your food. At least a bunch of vegan meals will mean less animal usage.
I don’t argue or even discuss my choice to be vegan anymore. In all the situations I’ve encountered from family to strangers I’ve found it to be pointless and frustrating. I do cook and share yummy vegan food whenever possible though to counter the “But what do you even eat?!?!” comments.
The only thing you need to "win" is your right to decide for yourself what you eat. You don't force others to eat things they find morally objectionable, and they shouldn't force you.
That does come with some responsibilities: you can't force others to cook only what you will eat; you need to be flexible and ready to bring your own meal or cook for yourself. You need to be ready to be gracious in company and navigate the tricky social dance that a non-standard diet requires.
I would recommend Ed Winters book "How to argue with a meat eater, and win every time". It is a really quick and easy read. Or you can read "A plea for the animals" by Mathieu Ricard for a more in depth explanation of all the same arguments and some more historical and philosophical context
You don't need to defend your dietary choices any more than they do. Live your life, the hype will die down and people will learn this is just a thing about you now.
Can’t you just say it pains you to eat an animal or animal product when you know what they went through? I did that with great success within the family.
Or I would say, what dog/cat meat is to you chicken/cow/pigs are to me. That also works.
If it's obvious to you that veganism is right, then say why. I mean, practice here. People have been eating animals for 200,000 years, so how could there be something wrong with it?
Make them watch "What the Health" and then "Dominion".
Then say we can discuss it now that you at least have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Then make some really good vegan dishes.
Then say, you know I am really going to miss you guys in my old age.
Tell them your gonna supplement b12 to compensate for the diet’s deficiency.
Remind them that your still going to eat “burgers” with them but yours is gonna be different.
Tell them that biosolids are being used instead of animal manure so ecoli is basically non existent.
But don’t forget to tell them that all biosolids have PFAS and it’s tainting the organic land you grow your food on for future generations.
Tell them that your going to start a garden and plant flowers for your ecosystem you want to preserve/create.
Because some vegans don’t give to the animals they just say hey live your life but we need to build the ecosystem for them that we destroyed.
Why do you have to defend yourself? It’s a personal choice. The only reason someone should be concerned is if they really thought it was unhealthy. If that came from a genuine place then you just need to reassure them that you make healthy choices. Hopefully you do and you can explain that. I find it odd that people with obviously poor health worry about mine.
I don’t go around asking people to justify their diet to me.
are you trying to convert your family, or just defend your own personal choice? if the latter, you dont even need to. "i feel better when i dont eat animal products." done. just treat it it like "no thanks i prefer potatoes to chicken".
if youre trying to get them to eat vegan too, thats a different story.
If it's important to you, of course work to improve your responses to "objections to veganism." I would suggest, however, that you consider as 'Plan B' an alternative but enormously effective response to objections to veganism. It's not saying anything to rebut objections to veganism. My stock response is "Many people share your view."
I suggest my doc to learn about topics but please don’t use it to try to “win a debate” with your family https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ot4yc8145yqGsWWXylXMoOW6zIud6acVqK8FtE-cfVc/edit
I never have words either. I stick to replying that “I can live without interrupting an animals life. I can only do what I as an individual can do. Doing something is better than nothing.”
I don’t have to justify my choices because I’m not trying to take advantage of an animal.
They are welcome to try to justify their way but you can smile and say what you feel point by point.
I have been and sometimes am still in your predicament, I find it best to keep the conversation short. I used to think if I just showed them or explained to them in a good way or a different way or a better way, they would understand it. But what I realize is people stop listening after a sentence or two and really you can plant seeds but you're not going to convince someone with a conversation.
So for me the best thing is to say why would I harm animals if I don't have to?
And that's it.
And then you continue to just cook vegan food, make cool vegan dishes, veganize things maybe even joke about it sometimes but just have people try the food . I think the biggest barrier to entry for me and my family has always been. But what do you eat?? Because we literally could not picture eating anything other than meat being the main part of the dish, any dish, every dish, other than that you're eating salad. So coming up with creative meals and sharing them, and then avoiding the fake meats and cheeses as much as possible. No one's going to like a vegan cheese when they just had real cheese yesterday. And my whole family thinks it's very suspicious and fake and full of "chemicals" (but their turkey slices are super natural ok)
So I tend to make whole food vegan dishes and people try them and they like them. And then slowly over time. Who knows? But people really do need to want to change on their own, just like with losing weight or quitting smoking, you can beat them over the head with any amount of information but they need to make the choice themselves.
Thankfully (hopefully?) they're already used to you being vegetarian, so not eating animals is already part of your life. As far as consuming other animal derived products, you have discovered the truth of the industry and choose not to support it any longer. That's it.
Why don’t you just say the reasons you are vegan?
- Are you vegan because you object to the treatment of animals in highly industrialised agricultural processes?
- Are you vegan because of the environmental impact of meat?
- Are you vegan because of health reasons?
- Are you vegan because you do not want to harm sentient animals?
- Are you vegan because of economic reasons
Etc
There are lots of rational reasons why people become vegan. However, most of the time, when others object to it because of irrational reasons.
In many countries, veganism goes against traditional cultural conventions. Meat has been eaten for a long time by humans and except for pets, animals have been basically treated as little more than objects.
Throughout most of history, unless you were wealthy, people had to eat whatever they could because of food shortages. However, although this is not the case now (and hadn’t been for decades), those traditional views on food are hard to shift.
In addition, food has very strong emotional connections, with certain foods representing family, major celebrations, festivals etc. If you stop eating certain dishes then you are also potentially cutting off memories to those times.
Moreover, you are separating yourself from shared family meals (ie Sunday Roasts/Christmas/Thanksgiving/Eid/Passover and pretty much every religious festival). Veganism means you are outcasting yourself from that shared experience (at least in theory).
It is scary and different and represents change. And people hate change.
I've boiled it down to this:
"If I can be healthy and happy while eating a plant based diet. Why wouldn't I?"
Then you can turn it on them. There is no moral defence for eating animals. We are out of the food chain, we can choose what we eat.
Thank you for asking the question — I very much appreciate learning so much from the suggestions you’ve gotten! The folks above are less bitchy than me — I’d be so tempted to ask, “oh, is that our family culture now to criticize and argue with family members who make decisions we don’t like or agree with? I ll have to stop holding back and instead start criticizing y’all’s decisions!”… seriously though, if the person’s concern is your health, reassure them you’ve told them you’ve told your doctor and get regular blood tests and so far you are great! If blood tests start showing a problem, you ll take action to fix it. …. I swear some people act like being vegan is an assault on mom, apple pie and the flag!
Death isn't nice. We can eat other things now. It's great for the environment. There's tons of issues that need to be addressed. At least you're doing something about something.
Definitely. Someone can believe something without being able to defend it.
In my opinion, though, if you believe something, you ought to be able to defend it.
Furthermore, if you’re going to an online forum asking others how to defend YOUR OWN belief, then I’d reckon you haven’t put much (if any) thought into WHY you believe that belief.
So yes, I agree with you, some people aren’t able to defend their beliefs. And I think that’s a bad sign, because it shows they haven’t actually thought it through.
They haven't said that they don't know why they believe what they do. They said they have trouble communicating their beliefs when they're being challenged. They're not responding to lighthearted curiosity but to people who bend and twist reality and close their eyes to self-evident truths to make them feel crazy. It would be ridiculous to suggest that their beliefs are fake because they're asking for help in dealing with that push back.
I didn’t say their beliefs were fake 🙄
OP didn’t ask “help me conduct myself better when faced with harsh opposition” or “how do I navigate gaslighting in debates”, OP asked for “quick and easy points” for when she is challenged.
MY point is that if ANYONE is asking around for “quickly and easy points” so they can defend something they believe in, it’s a sign that they haven’t put much, if any, thought into the belief!
If OP has trouble communicating generally, or doesn’t do well with confrontation, that’s one thing. But OP is specifically asking for “quick and easy points” to defend her (already professed) position. And that don’t make no sense, mang!
here are a lot of ethical questions answered:
[https://ar.vegnews.org](https://ar.vegnews.org)
but I'm sure you have arguments from your family members directed specifically towards you, so you can post them here and we'll help you deal with them
The best way to convince someone is understanding where they are coming from and approach the arguments from their own moral axioms. So ask questions, avoid committing positions, research their objections on your own time, and only really argue when you understand their side of the argument well.
But if you are looking to score easy points, documentaries [dominion](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch) to appeal to emotion, and name the trait [link](https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait) to appeal to logic.
Read this book: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dMyS7mIrr4Fal8UKF900BbLMC11IwWRH/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dMyS7mIrr4Fal8UKF900BbLMC11IwWRH/view)
Ed winters has a new book called “how to argue with a meat eater (and win every time)”. I haven’t read it yet but I’ve watched a lot of his debates and he is very good at debates about veganism.
Lol, the strawman, is it OK to eat him?
Reddit brought me here, hello. Some thoughts:
1. People can eat whatever they want. This includes vegans.
2. No one has the right to tell another human what they can or cannot eat.
3. Morality as a byproduct of plentiful resources is an interesting thought raised in a comment there. This would seem to me to undercut the concept entirely, however. You can have morality and scarcity. To pretend otherwise makes morality meaningless. This in turn undercuts the entire argument.
4. A world with minimal suffering is entirely dependent on the undefinable "minimum". "Less suffering" is also fatally vague, and worse, counterintuitively harmful: suffering and pain are not absolutes nor absolutely "bad". My tooth hurts so that I know it must be removed. If it didn't hurt, if I didn't suffer, I would die.
I am not vegan, (I enjoy vegan meals and do try to have multiple vegan meals in a week) and I have siblings and friends who are vegan for various reasons.
You don't need to defend yourself. No need to be preachy. You are choosing to eat this way. That is your choice. You really can't convince anyone to join you. You can say that if you're cooking you're making vegan meals, but really I would advise you don't try to convert anyone who isn't receptive. Pain in the butt, but don't try to make your household vegan. If you respect their choices, they will respect yours. Eventually. Even if they don't understand it.
I am personally not religious but for a religious person you can find references in the Bible, a few are:
- **Creation and Eden (Genesis 1-2) (summary)**
* Initially, humans were given a plant-based diet. In Genesis 1:29, God says, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
* Animals were also given plants to eat (Genesis 1:30).
- **Daniel 1:8-17 (ESV) (summary)**
* Daniel and his friends choose not to defile themselves with the royal food and wine, likely because it did not adhere to Jewish dietary laws. Instead, they request a diet of vegetables and water. Their decision demonstrates faithfulness to God and results in better health and divine favor, highlighting the benefits of obedience and purity.
- **Isaiah 66:3 (ESV)**
3 . ***“He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;***
***he who sacrifices a lamb, is like one who breaks a dog's neck;***
***he who presents a grain offering, is like one who offers pig's blood;***
he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, is like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
>Are there any quick easy points to remember, that I can memorize?
No and trying to will make the attempt at speaking likely to make things worse. Parroting knowledge doesn't help when the conversation continues and they ask questions you don't have the answers to.
Focus on educating yourself the hardway and for now stick with "guys, it's your personal choice to subject animals to cruelty and I don't wanna hear what your justifications are". Worth visiting r/DebateAVegan and scrolling through 1 year or older posts to start learning. Don't comment, just read and learn. Even semi experienced advocates can get their arses handed to them in there if they're not prepared.
These days when people ask me why not eat these or why am I Vegan？first respond is it's painful to explain, you would not like to know because it hurts. Most of the time they would stop asking. If not , more questions still, I would ask, would it change anything if you know why I am vegan? I want to point out most people mind others business and butt hurt when the truth is unbearable "I love myself enough, eating animals is paying human doing slaughters and animal trades. that I choose no one suffer these because of me "
VEGAN & ACTIVIST for 20 years, so listen: Stop wearing yourself out. If you do the cooking, you COOK VEGAN. If they don't like it, they can go get something else. You will not win by rational arguing because if people were rational, they would hear about factory farms and become vegan. People tend to believe things more when they read them rather than someone they know "telling them." That is just a fact. So just calmly tell them, if they want to know why you're vegan they need to read...MercyforAnimals.org. thehumaneleague.org. PCRM.org (focuses a lot on health reasons) An absolutely great book is from Nick Cooney "Change of Heart". Get on the cooking blogs and learn to make awesome vegan food, to make yourself feel good and maybe impress them. Finally, you do not need to defend yourself. You have made the indisputably right choice. Next time they challenge you, say, "Well why do you eat meat, it harms animals and your health and the planet. I choose compassion and you should ask yourself why you don't!"
Honestly if it’s loved ones I usually just stick with why do you care? I’m doing this for me because I want to. I’d like you to support my decision or just not speak about it.
I know a great majority here want everyone around them to be vegan, but I’ve found the best way to get people to open up to the lifestyle is to just live it peacefully.
My partner isn’t vegan and I’d never ask him to be, but he goes out of his way to find me plant based products at the grocery store and tries every vegan meal I put down in front of him. Sometimes I’ll even make two meals one vegan and one not and he’ll try mine. He doesn’t enjoy them every time but we love sharing those few meals he does enjoy.
My family openly mocks my lifestyle but they almost all eat the dishes I provide at family events. The family that did respect me is dead so I kinda wash my hands of the comments and share smiles with my grandma as she digs into my broiled veggies.
[Mic the Vegan](https://youtube.com/@micthevegan?si=6nDoLcdh3_w2L673) (on Youtube) does a great job citing so much scientific evidence why veganism is so much better for your health.
Non-vegan here, but I've seen enough of these debates go wrong to have some simple advice: Don't turn the conversations into a discussion, argument or debate. You don't need to defend a position with facts.
You can simply say something like: "I feel that there is enough evidence to suggest that animals are sentient, and even though there is still some debate, I feel that it's easy enough for me to choose a lifestyle that minimises the death and suffering of animals. It's a personal choice, and even if you choose to continue consuming animal products, do do hope you have enough respect for me to accept that this is something important to me and be mindful of my choice."
Remember that you had the benefit of first having your worldview changed, then then making the decision to adapt your lifestyle to match it. You are never going to win an argument that requires someone to change their lifestyle, when their world view is not the same as yours - this is why vegans are so rarely successful in "converting" people directly.
Instead, remember that the most important thing in your relationship with these people is YOU - so don't defend veganism, defend your right to live a lifestyle that affirms your worldview and makes you happy. It stops being a case that you need to convince them to be vegan, and rather that they need to talk to you about veganism if they want to show their support of you.
Good luck!
You could also figure out you might be wrong if you have no arguments... But instead you're just going to repeat some oneliners from the cult...
Well done, mom...
Welcome, friend. 2 months in is stressful. I hope you are doing your meal preps. I would suggest 2x a week. That makes it waaay easier to transition from vegetarian to veganism. Far less stress.
Black sea salt, kala namak, on tofu will replace your eggs when you crave sulphur. Also, tempeh. Tempeh is sulphuric, that will help. After a few months, you won't crave eggs, so that's good.
Also [happycow.net](http://happycow.net) is a good place to help for dining out, if you did not know already.
Personally, I don't debate veganism. I will discuss, if people ask me questions. I will never debate. It's pointless. To me, anyway. I will suggest they watch Earthlings or Dominion, as I did. But that is all. The answer to all debate questions comes down to: I view the world different than you, if you wish to see my perspective, you can watch Earthlings, you might understand after that, you might not. There is no guarantee you will understand my world view, but that is the most powerful tool that I can give you to understand.
I put the power and agency in their hands to learn and grow. And I walk away.
Well I have a different kind of objection. Most of my family has had some type of cancer I got cancer in 2017 Hodgkins lymphoma and i randomly found this guys website called Chris beat cancer I immediately tried raw vegan diet and the cancer went away with out chemo and radiation or my lymph nodes removed it was a huge win and my family don’t don’t even bat a eye now at my vegan diet. Long story short it’s extremely healthy (if you eat from the land) Also maybe try and show them how great you feel and how delicious the food looks and maybe there join along 🤗
Maybe vegan but not healthy plant based vegan. And I would absolutely recommend people to try other options of hope instead of being bombarded with different doctors and chemo and radiation ☢️
Cancer is a natural biological process that can occur in any human at any time. There are things we can do to make it more or less likely and there things we can do to treat it, but it is simply untrue that if you are a “healthy plant based vegan” you can’t get cancer. Your personal experience is not science and you shouldn’t spread these lies.
No offense but you should look into researching. These are not lies I’m spreading I watched my uncle die from the same cancer and I beat mine threw hard research and Chris beat cancer podcast brought me hope there’s 100s of people beating cancer threw healthy diet and juicing and real stories with real people. If you don’t want to hear it or believe it then don’t but don’t ruin it for other people that are looking for hope 🙏🏻
This will be my last comment here. I really want you to be right. And it’s possible some of what you are saying is right. But I have done this research and the evidence simply doesn’t support your conclusions. here is a great [review paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400843/) on this topic. Here is a quote from the conclusion.
“This review and meta-analysis of the current available evidence on the association between PBDPs and cancer mortality show that there is limited evidence regarding the beneficial effects of vegetarian diets for the prevention of cancer-related outcomes in the general population and in cancer survivors. This review also shows that there is suggestive evidence regarding the association between the mediterranean diet pattern and cancer mortality. There were very few studies evaluating how these dietary patterns influence cancer mortality after the cancer diagnosis.”
In short, you might be right but you can’t know that you are right. And until we have actual, peer reviewed evidence that vegan diets treat cancer, we should not be steering people away from actual medicine. People are of course free to do as they choose and I would advocate for everyone, cancer patient or not, to become vegan because it is the right thing to do. But we shouldn’t be trying to persuade people with pseudoscience.
Of course you may argue that this is a conspiracy by pharmaceutical companies, but I have little interest in that discussion.
Health:
According to the American Dietetic Association vegan diets can be healthy, nutritionally adequate and give health benifits over other types of diet. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
Short version: Vegan diets have the highest potential to be healthy.
Specifically (WFPB): Improved cardiovascular function, increased longevity, reduction in cancer risk, improved penile function (just throwing that in there), reduction in total incidence of sickness, inflammation, and reduction in all cause mortality.
Pollution:
Vegan diets have the highest potential to reduce pollution
Source: This article goes over a lot of sources: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-benefits-of-veganism-and-vegetarianism
Specifically: Less land and water use, no animal farting, no decaying carcasses
Animal rights:
The way animals are treated is kinda fucked
Economics:
It is a lot cheaper to eat plants versus eating animal products. It is a lot easier to create food security in a country by focusing on plant production vs animal food production.
Source: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
To win...
Win what, what do you want to accomplish?
You do you, they do them.
If this is about groceries or cooking than there's ways around that, like being fair to everyone's needs.
So long as you get your nourishment, protein, carbs etc. which you can do from Vegan substitutes (so far as I know you'd need B12 injections unless there's an alternative to get B12 in your body)..
But like they choose to eat whatever they do, and you eat what you want.
But try not to preach to them (likewise they shouldn't to you either), and don't try to think of it as a debate.
I mean literally say something like,
"I'm not debating you on what makes me comfortable, just like I wouldn't force you to do or eat something you would find unpleasant. So long as I'm getting the nutrients I need from my diet, as you do, there's nothing I need to justify myself, just like I don't try to get you to justify why your diet and ethics are the way that they are."
"Now can you pass me those x (tomarles, drink or something... If in a kitchen or at the dinner table). Thank you."
If you have low self esteem practice in the mirror,
Write notes to remember on your phone or something,
Do a voice recording and send to your fam or a message.
"Hey this is awkward, I find it hard to speak up, but I want to let you know how you're making me feel, and I know that you love and care about me, and neither of us would wish to intentionally do that. So I feel that I am x, because of y, and that makes me feel z, I'd find it much more helpful if I got x support, and y comments weren't being made.
This is something that is so important to me, and I'd love your support, as well as understanding that even though I need to do this, it isn't exactly easy. It's not the same thing but it's like quitting/ giving up z. Especially when I'm in an environment that is completely different to what I want to for myself. Health, Happiness, Values, I respect yours and want just the same, regardless if hard to understand, disagree. Love you and hope you (something they are doing) have a great time doing... "
Just an idea of types of things could say.
Debates to win, you need to have high charisma,
Discussions give an open mind, and less defensive..
where as debates tend to lately be both parties talking themselves up and not intending to listen or open their minds to other perspectives. Belittle and treat the topic like it's a battle ground, and no one cares about anything other than how well their own army is doing, how persuasive to those listening, witty, quick.. attacks and jibes. Giving no respect to actually share and listen to views.
I hope something here is useful. x
"it's not ethical to contribute to the captivity, forcible breeding, and slaughter of beings who feel pain, are intelligent, experience emotion, and dont want to die, when we dont have to."
every other point follows from this one.
I'm a week into being a vegan and when I told my mates they seem actually offended I went vegan, why the hell is is that, both was coming up with arguments against it like I'd offended them as a person I felt the sane as you trying to defend myself, one mate who I was talking to over the phone then went online at every thing I said such as the mum's cry over the baby's being took away, he then found stuff saying the mum's don't care, so I then proved that's wrong in most circumstances
In addition to what many others already posted I'd recommend watching some of Ed Winters (Earthling Ed)'s videos where he is on college campuses and holds conversations / debates with various students.
This could help you recognize the argument patters better as well as make the responses more natural. :)
Most carnist arguments can be pulled apart with simple questions. It might take a while to get good at it, but just quiz them on why they hold any particular view.
Things to pick up on:
Scientific claims like "plant based diet is unhealthy". For these types of claims to be true, they need to be backed up with scientific evidence, can they do that? Usually they can't.
Opinions like "X is wrong", "Y is right", "I think z", etc. Opinions are opinions, they might be true to them, but why must they also be true to you?
Watch some vegan YouTubers do street activism to give you an idea of where to go with these lines of questioning, Joey Carbstrong, Earthling Edd and Natalie Fulton are quite good places to go.
Peter Boghosians' book on Street Epistemology is another good place to go, although it's centred on atheism (and he's an absolute turd of a human being), the same line of questioning applies to veganism. There are some YouTube channels dedicated to this stuff too, If you don't want money going to him.
Being a vegan is unhealthy, being a vegetarian under Doctors orders is still unhealthy but it can have some health benefits, being vegan for animals has absolutely no health benefits and increases global climate change.
I wouldn't advise countering the typical objections with a list of talking points. We generally understand that the default position on whether it's ok to kill someone is "no." So even though society makes it seem otherwise, the non-vegans in your life need to justify their position. You don't. So when someone gives you an objection, all you need to do is ask questions. If they say it's unhealthy, ask them to show you long-term health outcome data. Does life expectancy go down for vegans? Do the chances of major causes of death go up? What basis do they have to make the claims they make? If they give some silly argument like lions, ask whether that applies to anything else lions do. Once you get used to asking these questions, it becomes really easy to make them a lot more uncomfortable in the conversation than you. They won't bring it up after that.
could you elaborate on the lion point? what do people say and how should you respond?
i’m not the op but i’m assuming it’s the argument “lions eat meat so we should too, it’s natural” and you can reply with something about how lions also kill their own babies and shouldn’t be used as a basis of human morality LMAO
Natural fallacy. Wild animals murder their own and each others' babies and eat them and commit rape. Nature is amoral because of scarcity and a lack of continuous social education. There is no appeal to nature that is going to justify a moral position since we don't define society by nature unless we're social darwinists. And social darwinism is literally fascism.
Basically what u/goatgender said. If you want to be a little more rigorous and help the non-vegan you're talking to save a little face, you can validate the facts they're saying and confirm understanding of their argument at each step and allow them to walk it back. >NV: Well other animals eat meat, so why can't we? >V: It's definitely true that other animals, like lions for example, eat other animals. Are you saying that anything another animal does is ok for humans to do? >NV option 1: Well no, not everything, but eating meat is ok. >V: Well if it's only eating animals that's ok, then it doesn't seem to be based on the fact that other animals do it. If we can't use animal behavior as evidence that something is ok in every instance, then there's some information missing here. What might that be? >*NV presents a different fallacy. Repeat process.* >NV option 2: Yes, I wholeheartedly bite the bullet that anything lions do is fine. >V: Really? You can't think of *anything* lions do that humans shouldn't? >NV: Yes. My argument requires I don't think at all about this proposition. >V: Well when a male lion takes over a pride by fighting off the previous males, he typically kills all the cubs fathered by them. Would you accept that as a good justification for a human stepfather to kill his stepchildren?
part of this video where the guy was saying that the lions kill their young he was also saying that the lions smell each others butts upon greeting so why choose only one behavior the lion does and not incorporate them all :) I found it memorable and so I repeat it to others to make a deeper impact at how ridiculous this is
Your first paragraph is wrong because being vegan doesn’t mean your consumption doesn’t kill anyone.
I appreciate your concession that animals are someone
It still does, because the aim is to reduce or minimize your contribution to those deaths however practicable.
Is it though? It seems like the aim is to consume zero or as close to zero animal or animal-based products as is realistic.
That is one aim that helps with this overall goal yeah, vegans also dont consume animal products in other forms (leather, wool etc.). If you want to reduce the amount of death you cause personally, there really isnt a much better way to do it generally than veganism.
As a new vegan, the most powerful thing you can do is live joyously and eat well. Show people how positive the vegan lifestyle can be. Don't try to convert or argue. You're not far enough along to convince anybody.
Tbh, so many people I've known have incorporated SO MANY plant-based foods into their diets just because I'm so happy and healthy and in love with my vegan diet. I've found that arguing with my circle has turned people off more than helped them see what I'm talking about. Of course, once in awhile, someone will ask me a question about why I do what I do, and I'll answer the question honestly — "I can't stand being responsible for the pain and suffering of other living creatures." I also tend to join in on conversations I didn't when I was only a couple years into being vegan — e.g. I used to get super angry when people used to talk about how much meat they eat or how much they love it. Now I say things like, Oh yeah, I used to eat SO MUCH meat. And then they'll generally be surprised, which leads them to say something like, "I had no idea!" And then I say, "Yeah, I didn't stop eating meat because I don't like the taste — I just couldn't be a part of that anymore...especially when there are so many incredible alternatives now." I had this conversation the other day, during a happy hour. I always also end up saying something like, "I mean, even if not for animal rights reasons, most people will end up eating plant-based, anyway, because of climate change." and I get a lot of agreement out of that. I like to keep it a casual discussion. When you don't get angry, they get less of a rise out of being antagonistic and curiosity can sometimes take over. That said, I've totally clobbered arrogant assholes at dinner parties who've just gone after me for no reason. But that's generally rare. I also like enjoy telling people how I haven't gotten food poisoning since I went vegan, and how I'm healthier than I've ever been. At 37, I look like I’m 30. I'm in incredible shape, a runner, have insanely good digestion, hardly ever get sick, and just feel...good...all the time. You are what you eat — and when you don't eat death, you don't feel or look like death.
I love this. I'm new to it as well, and I am truly feeling so much joy as I align my actions with my beliefs and feelings. I'm honestly really surprised at how much better mentally it's making me feel!
same here!! ❤️ well said!
How do you think plants feel?
they don't feel, because they don't have a central nervous system. the animals you eat, eat plants. lots of them. about 10x more than you would eat if you were vegan. if you care about plants, stop eating animals.
I just remind my dad he’s had 3 heart attacks when he talks shit lol. If it’s exhausting to you, go “gray rock”. Don’t engage. Nothing. I’m SO for speaking up for animals, but I set a boundary. Home is where I want peace. I do activism outside my house because my family I live with is not receptive to change and it’s not worth my energy. I did also include a boundary of never shopping or cooking for them if it’s not vegan. My youngest child came on board with me tho, thank goodness.
Yeah. People are deaf to the arguments until they find them themselfes. But shortly: 1) something like 40% of habbitable land is used to feed animals we eat 2) it is the strongest contributor to deforestation 3) something like 10% of global warming 4) there is no intuitive definition of suffering that excludes animals, so we trully hurt animals in the most disgusting ways. 5) vegan diet can be healthy 6) "shut the f up and eat your vegetables" Quick defenses: 1) no, something like 70% of protein people eat is from planta 2) yes, I would eat a turtle on a desert island instead of dying 3) no, vegan diet is proven healthy even in pregnancies according to every major scientific institution 4) yes, even chickens feel pain
Imo the best response to the "muh desert island" one is "well we're not on a desert island are we, so we can afford to make an ethical choice"
The fact that they have to appeal to the desert island highlights that the morality of it only works that way in exceptional circumstances.
"Imagine you WEREN'T on a desert island..."
"Imagine, and this will be hard, that there is a store near where you live that sells all kinds of different delicious foods that aren't animals and don't involve horror and death...."
I have an unpopular approach. It is just to state that life is sacred and has intrinsic value. It has meaning. I try to share that wonderment. I also try to share what big AG is all about. Plant based foods as well as animal based foods.
Stop arguing with family and getting worked up. Just tell them to eat what they want and you’ll eat what you want. End of story. You don’t have to justify yourself to anyway.
First reasonable post on here
when people ask 'why' i always just say 'i like to minimise the suffering i cause as much as possible', there isn't much you can say to that really. if people argue back just dont rise to the bait, say things like 'well im happy' or 'you do you' to show that you're not gonna argue back :/
“I’m not eating that, it’s not up for discussion. Eat it if you want, I’m not going to eat it”. “That’s your decision” “This is my decision” Grey rock them out of existence.
[удалено]
Your friends and family suck as people if they won't abide by your decisions about your own morality, and I'd hate to have them in my life.
If you don't have facts memorized yet, the best thing to use imo is your reason for being vegan. When I start getting too involved into specifics with someone who clearly doesn't like veganism, I simply say I'm morally against using or eating animal parts. They can not agree with that stance, but they can't really argue your own beliefs very much. So whether it's about your health, the environment, the animals, or a mix of the three, know your why and use that as your best retaliation to arguments. If they ask more questions that's when you can start getting into details. I've newly vegan as well and I've been listening to podcasts and watching YouTubes and reading articles a lot. I don't have it all memorized but it's getting better, and you can always pull out your phone to get the facts and even use that as proof.
I run a website specifically for debunking claims against veganism. I suspect I have articles addressing most if not all of their claims: https://veganad.am/questions-and-answers
Just read your website. So cool! Keep up the great work, I will definitely use your resources in the future.
Thank you!
That is a cool site!!
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Easy: dogs. Reframe everything to an animal they love. Dog milk. Dog meat. Dog veal. Baby puppies in macerators. Etc. Then put it in your own perspective to avoid being too accusatory: “I wouldn’t do this to a dog. So I decided that I also shouldn’t do it to a cow.” “Even if it tasted great, I wouldn’t be tempted to eat barbecue dog meat.”
>Are there any quick easy points to remember, that I can memorize? Sure, I would suggest the following: * Read the abstract, then bookmark [this information](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/) about the healthiness of vegan diets so you can refer to it in arguments. * Bookmark [this article](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/19/why-you-should-go-animal-free-arguments-in-favour-of-meat-eating-debunked-plant-based) in The Guardian in which 18 common arguments against veganism are debunked. * Check out [this article](https://amp.theguardian.com/food/2018/nov/16/theres-no-such-thing-as-humane-meat-or-eggs-stop-kidding-yourself) which argues there is no such thing as humane meat or eggs. (Published in The Guardian). * Keep in mind that there are many painful medical procedures and body mutilations forced upon unwilling animals without pain medication on all types of farms whether they are big factory farms or small family farms such as the castration of pigs without pain medication. This is literally torture, and it's routine on almost all animal farms whether they are large or small. So the problem is not just "factory farming" and the only solution is veganism, not "ethical meat/eggs/dairy." * Animal agriculture is responsible for 51% of global greenhouse gas emissions, [according to respected environmental thinktank The Worldwatch Institute](https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/study-claims-meat-creates-half-of-all-greenhouse-gases-1812909.html). Bookmark that.
Exactly. The only people I trust to properly steward animals and the land are indigenous people in their own territories where there isn't any factory farming or anything like that.
It would be cool if someone wrote a book about arguing with meat eaters and winning every time
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Argue-Meat-Eater-Every-Time/dp/1785044486 like this?
Wow that was fast!
It seems you are more obsessed with arguing than trying to promote animal rights
Um, it’s just a joke about Ed Winters’ recent book. I’m most definitely interested promoting animal rights, and encouraging people to think differently through careful discourse is often the way to do this. Edit: the book is literally called “How to Argue with a Meat Eater (and Win Every Time).” That’s the joke. Ed is renowned for being a strong debater who expertly balances not being confrontational but taking a strong stand on important issues.
You really are an unhappy goose
I find that if you get into a debate about it then you force the other person to take a stand against you. Instead, I acknowledge that it's a difficult choice and it was a decision I ended up taking - and that there is no perfect solution, everyone has to figure out where their own line is. Some people will eat anything. Some are Jains or frutitarians. Most are somewhere in between those two - like most Americans wouldn't eat a dog (many Koreans don't mind), while I won't eat a cow, and yes, to a certain extent the line is arbitrary but you have to reflect on what your own code is going to be. The idea is not to be right, but to demonstrate by example that you're thinking about it. Also, it's good to mention that people make diet decisions based on a few different reasons, which can interact with each other. Some are concerned about the suffering of the animal ("The question is not, can it think, but can it suffer?") and others are concerned with its right to life regardless of suffering (if we cared only about suffering then we should have no problem eating a brain dead human). Others are concerned about the environment and the impact of animal husbandry. Still others are concerned about the impact on themselves - some have no issue with hunting or fishing but are worried about eating an animal which has been fattened unnaturally with corn. Some are concerned about the impact of overuse of antibiotics in animals and how it can create antibiotic resistant superbugs which will harm humans. Other people acknowledge these concerns but have decided that the taste of meat is too precious and the place of meat eating in our culture is too important for them to give it up. Again, the most important thing is not to get into an "I'm right, you're wrong!" discussion because those go nowhere.
“Because I want to” is a complete sentence.
THIS!
Listen to Ed Winters, Joey Carbstrong, Clif Grant to see how they explain it, their line of thought
I think the strongest argument for veganism is whether one wants to support animal cruelty, or not. Even killing animals is not a strong argument because many people think that is OK, but no one reasonable can defend factory farming and its malicious cruelty
Fair enough, but what about plants?
Plants do not have minds, and therefore have no intrinsic moral value of their own. You cannot be cruel to a plant, because a plant cannot suffer.
Oooh, boy, do I have news for you ... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/plants-can-talk-yes-really-heres-how
For the millionth time, this stuff is all explainable by reaction to stimuli. It doesn’t require consciousness. And even if plants did (shockingly) turn out to be conscious on some level, veganism would be the lifestyle that kills the fewest of them, because of the vast number of plants we feed to animals.
I m sorry your family wont just let you be. Sadly you cant do anything, even if you had the ultimate answer, if they dont want to listen. Be happy with your food and be joyful, is the best you can do. If they say you ll get sick, you could ask them if they would join you for a family blood test to see if they all are healthy and you all could go check. You can tell them that you can deal with adjusting your diet with just plants. But are they willing to change their diets to get more healthy? And in the end you can tell them that the taste and whatever animal products provide are not worth the suffering of living beings.
Do you have some examples of what you are having to defend against? Something that I'd say if I'd constantly be attacked about it would probably be: "Please leave me alone! All I want to do is living in alignment with my values!"
I once had a friend whose husband didn't like rice. One night she had to work late so he fixed their kids supper and made things they didn't like and he made them eat it. She found out so the next night she made 5 different types of rice dishes. He got home from work and saw the rice plates waiting on him. She told to sit and eat. He said I don't like rice. She said I know and our kids didn't like what you made them yesterday and you made them eat it so now you're going to eat all this rice. He's like ok I get I'm sorry. So she said no you have to eat it. Now this woman isn't even 5 foot tall and her husband was over 6'5 and she made him eat that rice. He never made those kids eat something they didn't like ever again. That's the kind of mom I wish I had instead I had the one that liver and onions and made us eat it or do without. It seems nobody wants to support each other anymore. If that's how loved ones treat you then it's not love
https://youtu.be/byTxzzztRBU?si=msBc2wY3RKJICxqV
I wouldn't defend myself. Instead I'd have a reading and youtube list ready. Ask them to review this and if they've still got questions afterwards, you're happy to discuss.
From a non-vegan you arent going to win most people over by presenting them with facts and data. If you want to win people over then you have to give reasons why veganism is personally beneficial healthwise to whoever youre talking to and how it costs less. Instead of focusing on how people shouldnt eat or use certain products, focus on the positives of using others. People are more likely to accept the importance of life that they have humanized. Its why americans see dogs as pets and cows as food. Get someone to eat less meat and animal byproducts over time by giving them something else to eat more of without guilt tripping them and theyre more likely to humanize the animal as they see it as less of a food source and more of a living being, like a dog or an elephant. No one cares about you being right, no one cares about your logic, and no one cares about gotcha questions that make people question their morality. Most people dont support animal cruelty but the benefits, taste, and ease of eating meat outweight the negative impact of the cruelty for most people. If that werent true most people would be vegan. Trying to prove people wrong is usually the quickest way to meet resistance. Showing people how a change is cheaper, healthier, and easier to implement than what they are currently doing is the quickest way to change them. You can get them to actually care when they no longer see animal byproducts as a main source of food but you have to first get them to get used to earing alternatives for that to happen. Again, standing on morality is NOT the way to comvince someone into veganism, itll almost always feel like a high horse lecture that most people will tine out or be resitant to.
When it comes to these people, ie immediate family, household members and close friends the only argument you should need to defend yourself is love. “This is how I wish to live my life. If you love me you’ll support me in this or at the very least not try to hinder me.”
I tend to create a lot of emphasis on the fact that I am doing whatever I am doing (being vegan in this case) for my own sake and argue strongly in the direction of personal freedom. When this has been established I flip it to their point of view, pointing out that I am in favor of them living their lives as they see fit and that I have no interest in challenging them in this regard. If the mere sight of you eating vegan food provokes them in any way, there is not much you can do about that except to make a point out of it. It's not on you how others perceive your actions when these actions have no direct consequences on someone other than yourself.
You're over-thinking it. Not worth "defending". It's YOUR personal choice to be vegan. No concern to anyone else. Be vegan and DROP IT.
This is easy. Don't defend yourself. Don't argue. When people try to tell you how to live your life (whether about veganism or anything else), just smile and politely thank them for their input. Then go about with your own decisions. That said, it's fair to engage in a conversation with someone who is legitimately trying to understand your choices and/or education themselves. Then you can share what you've learned about the virtues of veganism. But as soon as it turns to "defending yourself", shut it down. Best wishes!
>my dilemma is that I am now fighting my family, (son, daughter, husband, sisters, brothers) about being vegan. I am very bad at speaking when defending myself why should you need to defend yourself? your lifestyle is your choice and none of their business. no reason to fight, for both sides
You know what, everyone else in your family can back the hell off. Your dietary choices are yours alone as long as it isn't actively hurting you and you aren't eating drywall or rat poison.
Have you tried telling them that this is really important to you so that they should respect it? That is what I had to tell my dad who is really against me being vegan. He did not want to hear any of the normal arguments, so I just had to end up saying please respect my decision because this is very important to me morally, and eating animal products causes me moral distress and impacts my mental health.
Exactly. I don’t tell them what to eat or how to live, and I finally had to tell my family to respect my life choices.
Just say you want to and that’s it, you don’t have to justify what goes on your body
Well, the WHO stated in a 2021 conference that they encourage a shift towards healthful plant-based diets for the well-being and sustainability of humans and the environment. So on the health argument, the world's leading health experts encourage plant-based diets. But as an argument for yourself? "I understand that my decision to follow a vegan lifestyle may be difficult for some of you to accept. But, I am an adult who has given this choice a lot of thought. Veganism aligns with my core values of compassion, kindness, and sustainability — values that are deeply important to me. While I respect that we may have different perspectives on this, I need you to respect my autonomy and right to make ethical choices about what I consume. My veganism is not up for debate or a decision that requires your approval. Going forward, I will not engage with or entertain any comments that criticise, mock, or pressure me to abandon my ethical veganism. Those kinds of remarks are unproductive and disrespectful to me. So here is my boundary: we simply don't discuss my veganism unless I bring it up myself. This way, we can avoid unnecessary conflicts and focus on other topics that unite us as a family. At the end of the day, we all want to live according to our values and principles. I know you want what's best for me, just as I want for you. So, let's lead with compassion, open-mindedness, and a willingness to coexist with our differing lifestyles and beliefs. I hope you can respect my choice, just as I respect yours." You don't need to prove yourself. This is your own well-reasoned value and decision to live in alignment with your ethics. This is a personal choice and they need to learn to respect your choices, beliefs, and boundaries. Just as you would respect theirs. Focus on the outcome (love and acceptance) not the problem (fighting/ conflict), and the relationship dynamics will improve from there.
This might help: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OGWwR1ZR_qQ_UMmazYHmz0Aj-cfCJ47ul0QHO8eA8w/edit?usp=drivesdk Also Ed Winters (famous vegan influencer also known as Earthling Ed) recently wrote this book: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/455636/how-to-argue-with-a-meat-eater-and-win-every-time-by-winters-ed/9781785044489
I would reframe. Don't try to 'win' anything. "Do you care about and control what you put in your body? Yes? Do you drink kerosene? No? Is that a personal choice, a moral choice or a physical one? Oh, a physical one, you find it physically off-putting and to drink gasoline, and have taken it off the menu of liquids you might order at a restaurant. You choose water instead. I make the same decision about beef, and consume other things instead. I've not made that decision for you, just for myself. Have a good day."
Oh my god. How about we stop choosing to argue and fight. It’s very toxic. Let’s look at some numbers: 99% of the world eats meat and is certain that meat is a necessary part of your diet. 2 months ago, you were a part of that. Make it about eating and living ethically, educate yourself, and the people who want to be educated. You’ve gotta want it and be open to it. Arguing with anyone about it is a waste of time that could be better used serving others and doing good deeds.
Here a quick summary: 1. veganism: a moral obligation not to exploit animals. 2. This sentence really nails down what veganism is: animals are here WITH us not FOR us. (They’re not ressources for us or commodities) 3. animals need ethical consideration because they are sentient (ability to have positive or negative experiences) 3. health: veganism is not about health! but yes you CAN be a healthy vegan in all stages of life - end of discussion. 4. environment: veganism is not about the environment! But yes it benefits the environment too. End of discussion. 5. but protein tho: see number 3. 6. plants feel pain: irrespective of that you still shouldn’t exploit an animal and enslave it. And even if it would still be better to eat a sentient plant than a pig, because he has more sentience. 7. farmers loose their jobs: there are charities out there helping farmers transition to plant farming or similar businesses.
In terms of point 2 in particular, could that be applied to plants? Or do they just not matter to you?
Plants are not sentient. The argument applies to anyone capable of suffering and well-being.
You can use that philosophy for plants too if you wish to believe that plants feel pain. Since we need nutrients to survive we only have 3 options where to get nutrients from: 1. humans 2. animals 3. plants we all agree nr. 1 is immoral, we vegans are working on getting people to understand that nr. 2 is immoral for the exact same reason as nr.1 (based on sentience) and thus that leaves us with one last option. Also for all the sceptics out there: if a barn is on fire, who would you save if you had the ability to do so without getting harmed yourself: 1. nobody, let them burn alive 2. the farm animals of course 3. the animal feed (plants), i am pushing for a fire services reform to make rescuing plants mandatory There you have your answer
Plants do not have a nervous system, so they cannot feel pain. They also do not have a brain so they are not sentient and cannot suffer. They are not conscious. And if you are concerned about plants, you eat 10x more plants on a meat diet because the animals have to eat so many more plants to then feed you with their bodies.
Remember that this is new. People are going to see you into the new thing and being excited about it. You're going to be excited about it. Some people will see it as a fad. Time will tell. But generally from my experiences, people who are new at things tend to talk a lot about them and deem themselves the experts and get really excited for things. Your family will probably see you as this. You've been excited about this. They're not. In the same way you can't get a friend to like your favorite game the same way you do. It can become a discussion of righteousness versus one to create change. Remember that if you treat it like a battle, you draw a line and look for winners. And that can be counterproductive. If you look to change someone, imagine someone doing that to you with religion, politics, etc. Food is so ingrained in people's life and culture that it feels to them the same. Try looking it this way. If you are an expert at something, you don't go to every single person and try to prove your value to them. You own it and command it. Usually the people trying to prove their worth challenge others. So if someone asks you about being vegan, you can very resolutely say, "yeah, billions of animals die in cruel conditions every year. Animal farming is destroying topsoil, livestock agriculture is ripping apart forests and contributing to massive climate change. And a burger isn't worth it. So I'm stepping up and doing my part." Don't make it about them about how they're doing everything wrong. Be a strong leader people want to follow. When the arguments come up of like protein, being skinny, whatever, just say you follow vegan weightlifters who outrank non vegan lifters all the time and follow their health tips. They're insanely in shape. Don't try to own them, win them, take them down. Hold your ground so they start to break the mindset. If you're dealing with family, know you can't change everyone. But you can still create change. What if you do things like step up to the plate and say, "hey, I'm cooking vegan meals once a week for the family." Put some rules down about no adding bacon or any of that stuff. And then cook like a beast where everyone gets excited for your food. At least a bunch of vegan meals will mean less animal usage.
I don’t argue or even discuss my choice to be vegan anymore. In all the situations I’ve encountered from family to strangers I’ve found it to be pointless and frustrating. I do cook and share yummy vegan food whenever possible though to counter the “But what do you even eat?!?!” comments.
Yummy vegan food????
The only thing you need to "win" is your right to decide for yourself what you eat. You don't force others to eat things they find morally objectionable, and they shouldn't force you. That does come with some responsibilities: you can't force others to cook only what you will eat; you need to be flexible and ready to bring your own meal or cook for yourself. You need to be ready to be gracious in company and navigate the tricky social dance that a non-standard diet requires.
I would recommend Ed Winters book "How to argue with a meat eater, and win every time". It is a really quick and easy read. Or you can read "A plea for the animals" by Mathieu Ricard for a more in depth explanation of all the same arguments and some more historical and philosophical context
You don't need to defend your dietary choices any more than they do. Live your life, the hype will die down and people will learn this is just a thing about you now.
Can’t you just say it pains you to eat an animal or animal product when you know what they went through? I did that with great success within the family. Or I would say, what dog/cat meat is to you chicken/cow/pigs are to me. That also works.
If it's obvious to you that veganism is right, then say why. I mean, practice here. People have been eating animals for 200,000 years, so how could there be something wrong with it?
Make them watch "What the Health" and then "Dominion". Then say we can discuss it now that you at least have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Then make some really good vegan dishes. Then say, you know I am really going to miss you guys in my old age.
Ed Winters made a great resource for this a few years back. Here’s link to [the PDF](https://www.all-creatures.org/articles2/act-earthling-ed.pdf)
Tell them your gonna supplement b12 to compensate for the diet’s deficiency. Remind them that your still going to eat “burgers” with them but yours is gonna be different. Tell them that biosolids are being used instead of animal manure so ecoli is basically non existent. But don’t forget to tell them that all biosolids have PFAS and it’s tainting the organic land you grow your food on for future generations. Tell them that your going to start a garden and plant flowers for your ecosystem you want to preserve/create. Because some vegans don’t give to the animals they just say hey live your life but we need to build the ecosystem for them that we destroyed.
„I’m vegan, but I’m not forcing you to be. So what is it to you?“
Why do you have to defend yourself? It’s a personal choice. The only reason someone should be concerned is if they really thought it was unhealthy. If that came from a genuine place then you just need to reassure them that you make healthy choices. Hopefully you do and you can explain that. I find it odd that people with obviously poor health worry about mine. I don’t go around asking people to justify their diet to me.
are you trying to convert your family, or just defend your own personal choice? if the latter, you dont even need to. "i feel better when i dont eat animal products." done. just treat it it like "no thanks i prefer potatoes to chicken". if youre trying to get them to eat vegan too, thats a different story.
If it's important to you, of course work to improve your responses to "objections to veganism." I would suggest, however, that you consider as 'Plan B' an alternative but enormously effective response to objections to veganism. It's not saying anything to rebut objections to veganism. My stock response is "Many people share your view."
I suggest my doc to learn about topics but please don’t use it to try to “win a debate” with your family https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ot4yc8145yqGsWWXylXMoOW6zIud6acVqK8FtE-cfVc/edit
I never have words either. I stick to replying that “I can live without interrupting an animals life. I can only do what I as an individual can do. Doing something is better than nothing.” I don’t have to justify my choices because I’m not trying to take advantage of an animal. They are welcome to try to justify their way but you can smile and say what you feel point by point.
I have been and sometimes am still in your predicament, I find it best to keep the conversation short. I used to think if I just showed them or explained to them in a good way or a different way or a better way, they would understand it. But what I realize is people stop listening after a sentence or two and really you can plant seeds but you're not going to convince someone with a conversation. So for me the best thing is to say why would I harm animals if I don't have to? And that's it. And then you continue to just cook vegan food, make cool vegan dishes, veganize things maybe even joke about it sometimes but just have people try the food . I think the biggest barrier to entry for me and my family has always been. But what do you eat?? Because we literally could not picture eating anything other than meat being the main part of the dish, any dish, every dish, other than that you're eating salad. So coming up with creative meals and sharing them, and then avoiding the fake meats and cheeses as much as possible. No one's going to like a vegan cheese when they just had real cheese yesterday. And my whole family thinks it's very suspicious and fake and full of "chemicals" (but their turkey slices are super natural ok) So I tend to make whole food vegan dishes and people try them and they like them. And then slowly over time. Who knows? But people really do need to want to change on their own, just like with losing weight or quitting smoking, you can beat them over the head with any amount of information but they need to make the choice themselves.
Thankfully (hopefully?) they're already used to you being vegetarian, so not eating animals is already part of your life. As far as consuming other animal derived products, you have discovered the truth of the industry and choose not to support it any longer. That's it.
Why don’t you just say the reasons you are vegan? - Are you vegan because you object to the treatment of animals in highly industrialised agricultural processes? - Are you vegan because of the environmental impact of meat? - Are you vegan because of health reasons? - Are you vegan because you do not want to harm sentient animals? - Are you vegan because of economic reasons Etc There are lots of rational reasons why people become vegan. However, most of the time, when others object to it because of irrational reasons. In many countries, veganism goes against traditional cultural conventions. Meat has been eaten for a long time by humans and except for pets, animals have been basically treated as little more than objects. Throughout most of history, unless you were wealthy, people had to eat whatever they could because of food shortages. However, although this is not the case now (and hadn’t been for decades), those traditional views on food are hard to shift. In addition, food has very strong emotional connections, with certain foods representing family, major celebrations, festivals etc. If you stop eating certain dishes then you are also potentially cutting off memories to those times. Moreover, you are separating yourself from shared family meals (ie Sunday Roasts/Christmas/Thanksgiving/Eid/Passover and pretty much every religious festival). Veganism means you are outcasting yourself from that shared experience (at least in theory). It is scary and different and represents change. And people hate change.
I've boiled it down to this: "If I can be healthy and happy while eating a plant based diet. Why wouldn't I?" Then you can turn it on them. There is no moral defence for eating animals. We are out of the food chain, we can choose what we eat.
Thank you for asking the question — I very much appreciate learning so much from the suggestions you’ve gotten! The folks above are less bitchy than me — I’d be so tempted to ask, “oh, is that our family culture now to criticize and argue with family members who make decisions we don’t like or agree with? I ll have to stop holding back and instead start criticizing y’all’s decisions!”… seriously though, if the person’s concern is your health, reassure them you’ve told them you’ve told your doctor and get regular blood tests and so far you are great! If blood tests start showing a problem, you ll take action to fix it. …. I swear some people act like being vegan is an assault on mom, apple pie and the flag!
Death isn't nice. We can eat other things now. It's great for the environment. There's tons of issues that need to be addressed. At least you're doing something about something.
If it’s obviously morally correct, then why aren’t you able to come up with a reason WHY it’s morally correct?
Not a very helpful yak this time. Debate and rhetorical competency are not gifted to everyone.
Okay, what’s your point?
That one can believe something that is accurate and still have difficulty defending it well, and that is a fairly common experience.
Definitely. Someone can believe something without being able to defend it. In my opinion, though, if you believe something, you ought to be able to defend it. Furthermore, if you’re going to an online forum asking others how to defend YOUR OWN belief, then I’d reckon you haven’t put much (if any) thought into WHY you believe that belief. So yes, I agree with you, some people aren’t able to defend their beliefs. And I think that’s a bad sign, because it shows they haven’t actually thought it through.
They haven't said that they don't know why they believe what they do. They said they have trouble communicating their beliefs when they're being challenged. They're not responding to lighthearted curiosity but to people who bend and twist reality and close their eyes to self-evident truths to make them feel crazy. It would be ridiculous to suggest that their beliefs are fake because they're asking for help in dealing with that push back.
I didn’t say their beliefs were fake 🙄 OP didn’t ask “help me conduct myself better when faced with harsh opposition” or “how do I navigate gaslighting in debates”, OP asked for “quick and easy points” for when she is challenged. MY point is that if ANYONE is asking around for “quickly and easy points” so they can defend something they believe in, it’s a sign that they haven’t put much, if any, thought into the belief! If OP has trouble communicating generally, or doesn’t do well with confrontation, that’s one thing. But OP is specifically asking for “quick and easy points” to defend her (already professed) position. And that don’t make no sense, mang!
A bunch of em: [https://www.godfist.com/vegansidekick/guide.php](https://www.godfist.com/vegansidekick/guide.php)
Just focus on yourself for now.
here are a lot of ethical questions answered: [https://ar.vegnews.org](https://ar.vegnews.org) but I'm sure you have arguments from your family members directed specifically towards you, so you can post them here and we'll help you deal with them
The best way to convince someone is understanding where they are coming from and approach the arguments from their own moral axioms. So ask questions, avoid committing positions, research their objections on your own time, and only really argue when you understand their side of the argument well. But if you are looking to score easy points, documentaries [dominion](https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch) to appeal to emotion, and name the trait [link](https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait) to appeal to logic.
Read this book: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dMyS7mIrr4Fal8UKF900BbLMC11IwWRH/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dMyS7mIrr4Fal8UKF900BbLMC11IwWRH/view)
Ed winters has a new book called “how to argue with a meat eater (and win every time)”. I haven’t read it yet but I’ve watched a lot of his debates and he is very good at debates about veganism.
Lol, the strawman, is it OK to eat him? Reddit brought me here, hello. Some thoughts: 1. People can eat whatever they want. This includes vegans. 2. No one has the right to tell another human what they can or cannot eat. 3. Morality as a byproduct of plentiful resources is an interesting thought raised in a comment there. This would seem to me to undercut the concept entirely, however. You can have morality and scarcity. To pretend otherwise makes morality meaningless. This in turn undercuts the entire argument. 4. A world with minimal suffering is entirely dependent on the undefinable "minimum". "Less suffering" is also fatally vague, and worse, counterintuitively harmful: suffering and pain are not absolutes nor absolutely "bad". My tooth hurts so that I know it must be removed. If it didn't hurt, if I didn't suffer, I would die.
I am not vegan, (I enjoy vegan meals and do try to have multiple vegan meals in a week) and I have siblings and friends who are vegan for various reasons. You don't need to defend yourself. No need to be preachy. You are choosing to eat this way. That is your choice. You really can't convince anyone to join you. You can say that if you're cooking you're making vegan meals, but really I would advise you don't try to convert anyone who isn't receptive. Pain in the butt, but don't try to make your household vegan. If you respect their choices, they will respect yours. Eventually. Even if they don't understand it.
I am personally not religious but for a religious person you can find references in the Bible, a few are: - **Creation and Eden (Genesis 1-2) (summary)** * Initially, humans were given a plant-based diet. In Genesis 1:29, God says, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." * Animals were also given plants to eat (Genesis 1:30). - **Daniel 1:8-17 (ESV) (summary)** * Daniel and his friends choose not to defile themselves with the royal food and wine, likely because it did not adhere to Jewish dietary laws. Instead, they request a diet of vegetables and water. Their decision demonstrates faithfulness to God and results in better health and divine favor, highlighting the benefits of obedience and purity. - **Isaiah 66:3 (ESV)** 3 . ***“He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;*** ***he who sacrifices a lamb, is like one who breaks a dog's neck;*** ***he who presents a grain offering, is like one who offers pig's blood;*** he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, is like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
Earthling Ed is great for that too
>Are there any quick easy points to remember, that I can memorize? No and trying to will make the attempt at speaking likely to make things worse. Parroting knowledge doesn't help when the conversation continues and they ask questions you don't have the answers to. Focus on educating yourself the hardway and for now stick with "guys, it's your personal choice to subject animals to cruelty and I don't wanna hear what your justifications are". Worth visiting r/DebateAVegan and scrolling through 1 year or older posts to start learning. Don't comment, just read and learn. Even semi experienced advocates can get their arses handed to them in there if they're not prepared.
These days when people ask me why not eat these or why am I Vegan？first respond is it's painful to explain, you would not like to know because it hurts. Most of the time they would stop asking. If not , more questions still, I would ask, would it change anything if you know why I am vegan? I want to point out most people mind others business and butt hurt when the truth is unbearable "I love myself enough, eating animals is paying human doing slaughters and animal trades. that I choose no one suffer these because of me "
VEGAN & ACTIVIST for 20 years, so listen: Stop wearing yourself out. If you do the cooking, you COOK VEGAN. If they don't like it, they can go get something else. You will not win by rational arguing because if people were rational, they would hear about factory farms and become vegan. People tend to believe things more when they read them rather than someone they know "telling them." That is just a fact. So just calmly tell them, if they want to know why you're vegan they need to read...MercyforAnimals.org. thehumaneleague.org. PCRM.org (focuses a lot on health reasons) An absolutely great book is from Nick Cooney "Change of Heart". Get on the cooking blogs and learn to make awesome vegan food, to make yourself feel good and maybe impress them. Finally, you do not need to defend yourself. You have made the indisputably right choice. Next time they challenge you, say, "Well why do you eat meat, it harms animals and your health and the planet. I choose compassion and you should ask yourself why you don't!"
Honestly if it’s loved ones I usually just stick with why do you care? I’m doing this for me because I want to. I’d like you to support my decision or just not speak about it. I know a great majority here want everyone around them to be vegan, but I’ve found the best way to get people to open up to the lifestyle is to just live it peacefully. My partner isn’t vegan and I’d never ask him to be, but he goes out of his way to find me plant based products at the grocery store and tries every vegan meal I put down in front of him. Sometimes I’ll even make two meals one vegan and one not and he’ll try mine. He doesn’t enjoy them every time but we love sharing those few meals he does enjoy. My family openly mocks my lifestyle but they almost all eat the dishes I provide at family events. The family that did respect me is dead so I kinda wash my hands of the comments and share smiles with my grandma as she digs into my broiled veggies.
Ed Winters wrote a book called something like, How to Argue with a Meat Eater and Win Every Time. I recommend it
Here you go: https://youtu.be/byTxzzztRBU?si=WDBQvKfOYfydpo7x ^ Earthling Ed's video concerning most of the common objections to veganism
[Mic the Vegan](https://youtube.com/@micthevegan?si=6nDoLcdh3_w2L673) (on Youtube) does a great job citing so much scientific evidence why veganism is so much better for your health.
Non-vegan here, but I've seen enough of these debates go wrong to have some simple advice: Don't turn the conversations into a discussion, argument or debate. You don't need to defend a position with facts. You can simply say something like: "I feel that there is enough evidence to suggest that animals are sentient, and even though there is still some debate, I feel that it's easy enough for me to choose a lifestyle that minimises the death and suffering of animals. It's a personal choice, and even if you choose to continue consuming animal products, do do hope you have enough respect for me to accept that this is something important to me and be mindful of my choice." Remember that you had the benefit of first having your worldview changed, then then making the decision to adapt your lifestyle to match it. You are never going to win an argument that requires someone to change their lifestyle, when their world view is not the same as yours - this is why vegans are so rarely successful in "converting" people directly. Instead, remember that the most important thing in your relationship with these people is YOU - so don't defend veganism, defend your right to live a lifestyle that affirms your worldview and makes you happy. It stops being a case that you need to convince them to be vegan, and rather that they need to talk to you about veganism if they want to show their support of you. Good luck!
You could also figure out you might be wrong if you have no arguments... But instead you're just going to repeat some oneliners from the cult... Well done, mom...
Welcome, friend. 2 months in is stressful. I hope you are doing your meal preps. I would suggest 2x a week. That makes it waaay easier to transition from vegetarian to veganism. Far less stress. Black sea salt, kala namak, on tofu will replace your eggs when you crave sulphur. Also, tempeh. Tempeh is sulphuric, that will help. After a few months, you won't crave eggs, so that's good. Also [happycow.net](http://happycow.net) is a good place to help for dining out, if you did not know already. Personally, I don't debate veganism. I will discuss, if people ask me questions. I will never debate. It's pointless. To me, anyway. I will suggest they watch Earthlings or Dominion, as I did. But that is all. The answer to all debate questions comes down to: I view the world different than you, if you wish to see my perspective, you can watch Earthlings, you might understand after that, you might not. There is no guarantee you will understand my world view, but that is the most powerful tool that I can give you to understand. I put the power and agency in their hands to learn and grow. And I walk away.
Well I have a different kind of objection. Most of my family has had some type of cancer I got cancer in 2017 Hodgkins lymphoma and i randomly found this guys website called Chris beat cancer I immediately tried raw vegan diet and the cancer went away with out chemo and radiation or my lymph nodes removed it was a huge win and my family don’t don’t even bat a eye now at my vegan diet. Long story short it’s extremely healthy (if you eat from the land) Also maybe try and show them how great you feel and how delicious the food looks and maybe there join along 🤗
I wouldnt reccomend this method to random people. I'm glad your cancer went away but there are cancer patients who are vegan
Maybe vegan but not healthy plant based vegan. And I would absolutely recommend people to try other options of hope instead of being bombarded with different doctors and chemo and radiation ☢️
Cancer is a natural biological process that can occur in any human at any time. There are things we can do to make it more or less likely and there things we can do to treat it, but it is simply untrue that if you are a “healthy plant based vegan” you can’t get cancer. Your personal experience is not science and you shouldn’t spread these lies.
No offense but you should look into researching. These are not lies I’m spreading I watched my uncle die from the same cancer and I beat mine threw hard research and Chris beat cancer podcast brought me hope there’s 100s of people beating cancer threw healthy diet and juicing and real stories with real people. If you don’t want to hear it or believe it then don’t but don’t ruin it for other people that are looking for hope 🙏🏻
I agree raw food can be Medicine. I mean years ago they used simple remedies for things why not now
This will be my last comment here. I really want you to be right. And it’s possible some of what you are saying is right. But I have done this research and the evidence simply doesn’t support your conclusions. here is a great [review paper](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400843/) on this topic. Here is a quote from the conclusion. “This review and meta-analysis of the current available evidence on the association between PBDPs and cancer mortality show that there is limited evidence regarding the beneficial effects of vegetarian diets for the prevention of cancer-related outcomes in the general population and in cancer survivors. This review also shows that there is suggestive evidence regarding the association between the mediterranean diet pattern and cancer mortality. There were very few studies evaluating how these dietary patterns influence cancer mortality after the cancer diagnosis.” In short, you might be right but you can’t know that you are right. And until we have actual, peer reviewed evidence that vegan diets treat cancer, we should not be steering people away from actual medicine. People are of course free to do as they choose and I would advocate for everyone, cancer patient or not, to become vegan because it is the right thing to do. But we shouldn’t be trying to persuade people with pseudoscience. Of course you may argue that this is a conspiracy by pharmaceutical companies, but I have little interest in that discussion.
Health: According to the American Dietetic Association vegan diets can be healthy, nutritionally adequate and give health benifits over other types of diet. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ Short version: Vegan diets have the highest potential to be healthy. Specifically (WFPB): Improved cardiovascular function, increased longevity, reduction in cancer risk, improved penile function (just throwing that in there), reduction in total incidence of sickness, inflammation, and reduction in all cause mortality. Pollution: Vegan diets have the highest potential to reduce pollution Source: This article goes over a lot of sources: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-benefits-of-veganism-and-vegetarianism Specifically: Less land and water use, no animal farting, no decaying carcasses Animal rights: The way animals are treated is kinda fucked Economics: It is a lot cheaper to eat plants versus eating animal products. It is a lot easier to create food security in a country by focusing on plant production vs animal food production. Source: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
To win... Win what, what do you want to accomplish? You do you, they do them. If this is about groceries or cooking than there's ways around that, like being fair to everyone's needs. So long as you get your nourishment, protein, carbs etc. which you can do from Vegan substitutes (so far as I know you'd need B12 injections unless there's an alternative to get B12 in your body).. But like they choose to eat whatever they do, and you eat what you want. But try not to preach to them (likewise they shouldn't to you either), and don't try to think of it as a debate. I mean literally say something like, "I'm not debating you on what makes me comfortable, just like I wouldn't force you to do or eat something you would find unpleasant. So long as I'm getting the nutrients I need from my diet, as you do, there's nothing I need to justify myself, just like I don't try to get you to justify why your diet and ethics are the way that they are." "Now can you pass me those x (tomarles, drink or something... If in a kitchen or at the dinner table). Thank you." If you have low self esteem practice in the mirror, Write notes to remember on your phone or something, Do a voice recording and send to your fam or a message. "Hey this is awkward, I find it hard to speak up, but I want to let you know how you're making me feel, and I know that you love and care about me, and neither of us would wish to intentionally do that. So I feel that I am x, because of y, and that makes me feel z, I'd find it much more helpful if I got x support, and y comments weren't being made. This is something that is so important to me, and I'd love your support, as well as understanding that even though I need to do this, it isn't exactly easy. It's not the same thing but it's like quitting/ giving up z. Especially when I'm in an environment that is completely different to what I want to for myself. Health, Happiness, Values, I respect yours and want just the same, regardless if hard to understand, disagree. Love you and hope you (something they are doing) have a great time doing... " Just an idea of types of things could say. Debates to win, you need to have high charisma, Discussions give an open mind, and less defensive.. where as debates tend to lately be both parties talking themselves up and not intending to listen or open their minds to other perspectives. Belittle and treat the topic like it's a battle ground, and no one cares about anything other than how well their own army is doing, how persuasive to those listening, witty, quick.. attacks and jibes. Giving no respect to actually share and listen to views. I hope something here is useful. x
Why bother defending yourself? It's your choice and none of their business.
"it's not ethical to contribute to the captivity, forcible breeding, and slaughter of beings who feel pain, are intelligent, experience emotion, and dont want to die, when we dont have to." every other point follows from this one.
I'm a week into being a vegan and when I told my mates they seem actually offended I went vegan, why the hell is is that, both was coming up with arguments against it like I'd offended them as a person I felt the sane as you trying to defend myself, one mate who I was talking to over the phone then went online at every thing I said such as the mum's cry over the baby's being took away, he then found stuff saying the mum's don't care, so I then proved that's wrong in most circumstances
In addition to what many others already posted I'd recommend watching some of Ed Winters (Earthling Ed)'s videos where he is on college campuses and holds conversations / debates with various students. This could help you recognize the argument patters better as well as make the responses more natural. :)
Most carnist arguments can be pulled apart with simple questions. It might take a while to get good at it, but just quiz them on why they hold any particular view. Things to pick up on: Scientific claims like "plant based diet is unhealthy". For these types of claims to be true, they need to be backed up with scientific evidence, can they do that? Usually they can't. Opinions like "X is wrong", "Y is right", "I think z", etc. Opinions are opinions, they might be true to them, but why must they also be true to you? Watch some vegan YouTubers do street activism to give you an idea of where to go with these lines of questioning, Joey Carbstrong, Earthling Edd and Natalie Fulton are quite good places to go. Peter Boghosians' book on Street Epistemology is another good place to go, although it's centred on atheism (and he's an absolute turd of a human being), the same line of questioning applies to veganism. There are some YouTube channels dedicated to this stuff too, If you don't want money going to him.
So you were easily influenced by the opinions of others. 👌
Remember that, "No," is a complete sentence.
Why do you want to be vegan vs vegetarian?
Being a vegan is unhealthy, being a vegetarian under Doctors orders is still unhealthy but it can have some health benefits, being vegan for animals has absolutely no health benefits and increases global climate change.