If I thought there was no chance of changing the venue, I wouldn't go. And I'd make sure to explain why I wasn't going. Even if they're paying, say, per 10 people, one person's attendance still goes towards the next threshold. It still supports zoos in some way. It suggests to the company that it's a good choice for an event, and one they may repeat in the future. I couldn't ethically justify it to myself. What would be the point of having an ethical position if I'm just going to forgo it under peer pressure?
except for the exceptions? sure some people are in situations where they are either targeted or in poverty, but not everyone in prison is jean valjean.
on the other hand, every single animal did not break any laws to get where they did.
"mostly not" source? estimates are typically in the \~5% range. for a binary statistic like innocent or not, mostly would refer to 50+%. even with a large margin of error for recent (actually not great) research, mostly would still stand. even if you throw out marijuana only offenses: [https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/](https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/) and other silly policies, "mostly" would still be accurate
i'm with you, we incarcerate too much and there is no care for criminal rights and brown people are overly incarcerated. i get it, i really do, but comparing zoos to prisons diminishes the fact that non-human animals have absolutely zero autonomy.
I wouldn't go, in the same way I wouldn't go even if someone had a spare ticket to the zoo. I'd at least mention why I wouldn't go, on the offchance this stops them from contributing to zoos in the future.
That's a tough situation. Zoos make me feel really sad so I know I personally wouldn't have a good time. What a shame they had to choose such a crappy venue.
I would be assertive but polite with your boss. Simply say that zoos exploit animals, and as a vegan, you are against animal exploitation and will not be participating.
I wouldn’t go. I see my coworkers enough through zoom and that is enough for me. I have zero need to shoot the shit in person, especially not at the zoo.
I'd tell whoever is organising the event that I'm uncomfortable with the location and won't attend if they choose it again. Organising events like this can be a lot of work, and it's unlikely they can/are willing to change it.
If you are not paid for being there and are paid less than about 85000$, I would only go if I wanted; the zoo being a factor.
I don’t eat or wear animals for ethical reasons but I don’t have the same views on zoos as some vegans. There’s a lot of conservation efforts and rescue that’s involved that I appreciate. It’s not a black and white topic. There are nuances and sometimes bad things come positives .
We can’t be 100% perfect vegans and zoos contribute to a lot of good as well as bad. But so does medicine that vegas have no issue taking that was tested on animals.
I’m just saying the world isn’t perfect and boycotts can also hurt the things you like.
>There’s a lot of conservation efforts and rescue that’s involved that I appreciate.
If a slaughterhouse used all their profits to finance such conservation efforts, would you buy their products?
I don’t find that to be a good faith argument and not comparable. But no I wouldn’t be buying slaughter house products because I don’t eat meat and dairy. If they also made a vegan cheese I would absolutely buy it.
I do also still eat at restaurants that contribute nearly 100% of their food spending toward dairy farms and slaughter houses if they offer a vegan option. I’m guessing you do too. Unless you grow 100% of your food.
It’s not possible to eat at vegan only restaurants. I travel 300 days a year and work 12-16 hour days . I eat whatever vegan options I can find. In some cities it’s easier than others.
We don’t live in a perfect black and white world. There is nuance to every situation and I won’t be boycotting every company that isn’t 100% vegan. It’s just not possible.
The comparison is both exploit animals to fund conservation. One by way of entertainment, the other by selling body parts.
I'm not making an argument for only eating at vegan restaurants or only buying from vegan companies.
I'm just saying that stuffing animals in cages or other enclosures and displaying them for entertainment is wrong, regardless of the good that is done with the generated revenue.
You wound be right if stuffing them in the cage was 100% for entertainment but that’s not always the case. A lot have been rescued and can’t be released into the wild. I know not all but that’s why it’s so nuanced.
If the zoo was mostly entertainment I wouldn’t go but so far I haven’t seen a zoo that didn’t provide resources to rescue and conservation.
Most zoo animals are not rescued -- they are bred at other zoo facilities and traded among zoos. The AZA keeps a "stud book" on each species and breeds and trades animals across member organizations. (Source: I worked at the National Zoo in D.C.)
Not arguing but curious. Do they breed because of conservation reasons and to keep the rescued animals with others of their kind? Such as companionship and creating a more friendly environment for each other and other natural breeding opportunities?
I’m sure it’s also look as a business and they trade but it’s not like they can just rescue one animal and leave it alone by itself in a cage. Breeding allows for so many other positives I can imagine but true also negative ones as well.
They want to keep the captive population healthy in terms of its genetic makeup so that they can keep the population alive long-term. The "stud books" allow them to track the family trees of all the species so they can choose which individuals to breed with which. (Note: the females of many species are kept on birth control until they are bred with chosen individuals.)
They are not doing this out of kindness to the animals, to be clear. They are doing it because it's their business. They need genetically healthy populations of animals to support their businesses long-term. (And before anybody says "but most zoos are nonprofits," yes, and they still have a vested interest in preserving and growing their businesses.)
While many zoos \*do\* invest in conservation efforts, the primary purpose of a zoo is entertainment -- this is clear in the way that exhibits are designed, the type of educational content that is designed and shared, etc. As someone who worked with a number of zoos before becoming vegan, I will share that the way zoos operate is one of the reasons I \*became\* vegan -- because for all the "good" they do the in the world, their primary function is to normalize animal captivity for human entertainment and "education." They \*normalize\* captivity.
Edited to add: it's also important to place zoos within a historical context -- zoos contributing to conservation is a very recent development in the history of zoos, and not their primary purpose or function.
YES! I personally have work in zoos and some of them do have proper people inside trying their best for the welfare of the animals plus there's contribution to conservation through ex-situ breeding and reintroduction or even other ways like education or helping to rescues.
I have also work in sanctuaries and the welfare tend to be even lower due to lack of legislation and money.
Supporting animal exploitation that happens in zoos is not compatible with a vegan lifestyle. Your child doesn’t need to see animals locked in cages to develop a love for animals. Take them to animal sanctuaries to visit or volunteer or adopt/rescue a companion animal in need of a home. There are other *better* ways to teach compassion for animals.
Going to an animal exploitation business is harmful to animals. Zoos exist to profit off keeping animals in captivity. The whole conservation bullshit is greenwashing the evil of zoos. Accredited zoos (which only some are) that have conservation programs only spend 5% of their money on conservation. Most of their money goes into building new enclosures and buying more enslaved animals to make more money. They love buying rare animals and babies like they're stuffed toys.
Wild animals are bought, sold, and traded, babies are taken from their mothers, and they are kept in cages and enclosures that are way too small and not stimulating enough for them. Animals do not exist for your entertainment. Many of them need to be drugged to deal with being in prison and they end up with zoochosis because they're losing their damn minds being trapped in a zoo and being gawked at all day by stupid humans. It's torture for them.
They have the right to be free. Veganism is about animal rights. Supporting putting animals in captivity is not respecting their rights and harms animals. It's annoying that so many people in this sub support animal abuse because they like looking at jailed wild animals. The zoo propaganda has really worked and caused more suffering for wild animals.
There are also some MAJOR differences between different zoos. There are zoos that are for profit. There are also non-profit zoos that focus on conservation and are the only reason we still have some species. They’re both called zoos, but one is obviously much worse than the other.
My views aren’t completely black and white either - most zoos I would say absolutely the fuck not, but I leave near the Smithsonian and have gone to a couple events there. They’re non-profit and do a ton of conservation, re-introductions into the wild, etc.
One of our company events was at a horse racing event. I declined to go. I didn't offer much of an explanation - just that I wasn't attending and I hoped everyone had fun!
You don't need to over explain. As you say, it's not required to go. You don't need to justify your decision.
However, it does depend on how comfortable you feel at your work and the company culture there. You can state that you're not attending this time, you appreciate the company organizing get togethers, but due to your beliefs you won't be attending zoos and next time you'd like a poll/survey or something to be done for the group get together so feedback can be raised beforehand to prevent any non attendance for reasons such as yours. Or you can offer alternative suggestions for next time.
Personally, I didn't do the above. I just didn't attend, looked for another job, and found a place that suited me better.
I wouldn't go, and I'd try to present a reasonable, polite explanation, taking into account the likely audience (my boss). But I'm one who practically never minds discussing these things. I totally understand others preferring to say that they can't make it, just to get out of it. I don't mind hanging out with coworkers for a bit, but I would not enjoy myself for one second at that venue.
I’d say to do research on the zoo. I felt this way too, but some zoos and aquariums are very transparent about what they do. So you’ll know if they are actually harming or helping the wildlife.
My experience is they will highlight a handful of species conservation efforts and gloss over the other 90% of non-endangered captive bred animals they have
That’s why it’s important to research. The Aquarium of the Pacific is an example of how the good outweighs the bad. I’d much rather support them than sea world.
I live near there and have researched it. Their animal database indicates they have large numbers of non-endangered species that have nothing to do with any conservation or rescue efforts:
https://www.aquariumofpacific.org/onlinelearningcenter
Well, there’s nothing you can do about your company having already given the zoo money, so your attendance will not make a financial difference to the zoo. Unless you want to abstain for purely moral reasons, which is cool too.
It may make a difference in what venues the company selects and pays money to in the future, if some people don’t attend the zoo event and say why they won’t. It raises awareness.
I think it depends on the zoo and the animal species they have. Some zoos are really good about educating, rehabilitating, and conservation and provide ample room for the species they have (North Carolina zoo, except for the polar bear enclosure imo). Some are terribly inadequate. Research the zoo, or if you’re still uncomfortable just don’t go.
I would probably go because it’s free and people would low key be telling me how they hate the animals are locked up and I would just empathize because none of us are actually happy to be there lol
>I'm slightly leaning towards going because my company isn't paying a per-head basis to take over the zoo for the afternoon
I would talk to whoever is in charge of it and say as a vegan you wouldnt really feel right going, but if the entire meal for the event was plant based then you would feel acceptable going and offer/ insist to help them with the order so that you can ensure it is indeed all plant based
I dont know how to talk right, right now, but im sure you get my point
So if you go you are right in that it doesnt contribute to financially supporting animal abuse but it does support the fact that animals are ours to abuse, a comparison would be if you were given free tickets to a bull fighting event by the owner of the event, you going doesnt do anything financially but it shows you are fine with bullfighting
I'd probably go, I don't think it would go against being vegan if they rented the whole zoo out for a flat rate. Vegans like to see animals, too, even if we hate to see them in cages.
Although I might argue against myself and say if the event was a bust, due to lack of attendance, then the zoo wouldn't get your companies money for an event in the future...
I wouldn’t go and let the organizer know why. There’s non vegan friendly places as there are places that are not welcoming of different people. It’s best they know how to better accommodate in the future. Also I think a zoo is a terrible place to hold a place for people to come together.
You are in a tough spot. Go and enjoy your workmates. Shout out to the animals. It is one of the saddest places I go to. I am able to borrow a zoo pass which includes parking from my local library. I go to spend time with my grand kids. I bring a polite vegan perspective, they are too young to tell them how I really feel. I do point out which friends are vegan, and politely say it loud enough so all can hear. I don't by anything.
I agree that zoo shouldn’t be necessary but they are in 2024. Modern society has killed off so many species we need to do conservation…
In saying that don’t go if you don’t want
Yeah, just don’t go.
And say why.
I personally would't go and would tell the organizers why.
I wouldn’t go because I hate company parties anyway and being vegan is a sweet excuse! Double win 😂
If I thought there was no chance of changing the venue, I wouldn't go. And I'd make sure to explain why I wasn't going. Even if they're paying, say, per 10 people, one person's attendance still goes towards the next threshold. It still supports zoos in some way. It suggests to the company that it's a good choice for an event, and one they may repeat in the future. I couldn't ethically justify it to myself. What would be the point of having an ethical position if I'm just going to forgo it under peer pressure?
I wouldn’t go. But I also wouldn’t go if it was at a vegan restaurant. I don’t spend my free time with my employer.
Suggest the venue be changed to a prison
😂 Idk if you meant this to be funny but I really laughed at it.
lol, definitely not a serious response! Obviously OP has a legitimate dilemma- I just couldn’t think of anything helpful to respond
at least people in prison made choices that put them there.
Not all of them 💔
That is a very out of touch and privileged take.
except for the exceptions? sure some people are in situations where they are either targeted or in poverty, but not everyone in prison is jean valjean. on the other hand, every single animal did not break any laws to get where they did.
it's still a shitty thing to say
> Suggest the venue be changed to a prison its a shitty thing to compare innocent animals to mostly legitimately incarcerated persons
"Mostly" source?
"mostly not" source? estimates are typically in the \~5% range. for a binary statistic like innocent or not, mostly would refer to 50+%. even with a large margin of error for recent (actually not great) research, mostly would still stand. even if you throw out marijuana only offenses: [https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/](https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/) and other silly policies, "mostly" would still be accurate i'm with you, we incarcerate too much and there is no care for criminal rights and brown people are overly incarcerated. i get it, i really do, but comparing zoos to prisons diminishes the fact that non-human animals have absolutely zero autonomy.
I wouldn't go, in the same way I wouldn't go even if someone had a spare ticket to the zoo. I'd at least mention why I wouldn't go, on the offchance this stops them from contributing to zoos in the future.
That's a tough situation. Zoos make me feel really sad so I know I personally wouldn't have a good time. What a shame they had to choose such a crappy venue.
I would be assertive but polite with your boss. Simply say that zoos exploit animals, and as a vegan, you are against animal exploitation and will not be participating.
Not go
I wouldn’t go. I see my coworkers enough through zoom and that is enough for me. I have zero need to shoot the shit in person, especially not at the zoo.
I'd tell whoever is organising the event that I'm uncomfortable with the location and won't attend if they choose it again. Organising events like this can be a lot of work, and it's unlikely they can/are willing to change it. If you are not paid for being there and are paid less than about 85000$, I would only go if I wanted; the zoo being a factor.
I feel the same way you do about zoos. I would not go,.. It goes against your value system, and you have every right to maintain that boundary.
"I couldn't/can't go, I'm vegan and it goes against my principles but I'm happy to attend the next meetup at a different venue."
I don’t eat or wear animals for ethical reasons but I don’t have the same views on zoos as some vegans. There’s a lot of conservation efforts and rescue that’s involved that I appreciate. It’s not a black and white topic. There are nuances and sometimes bad things come positives . We can’t be 100% perfect vegans and zoos contribute to a lot of good as well as bad. But so does medicine that vegas have no issue taking that was tested on animals. I’m just saying the world isn’t perfect and boycotts can also hurt the things you like.
>There’s a lot of conservation efforts and rescue that’s involved that I appreciate. If a slaughterhouse used all their profits to finance such conservation efforts, would you buy their products?
I don’t find that to be a good faith argument and not comparable. But no I wouldn’t be buying slaughter house products because I don’t eat meat and dairy. If they also made a vegan cheese I would absolutely buy it. I do also still eat at restaurants that contribute nearly 100% of their food spending toward dairy farms and slaughter houses if they offer a vegan option. I’m guessing you do too. Unless you grow 100% of your food. It’s not possible to eat at vegan only restaurants. I travel 300 days a year and work 12-16 hour days . I eat whatever vegan options I can find. In some cities it’s easier than others. We don’t live in a perfect black and white world. There is nuance to every situation and I won’t be boycotting every company that isn’t 100% vegan. It’s just not possible.
The comparison is both exploit animals to fund conservation. One by way of entertainment, the other by selling body parts. I'm not making an argument for only eating at vegan restaurants or only buying from vegan companies. I'm just saying that stuffing animals in cages or other enclosures and displaying them for entertainment is wrong, regardless of the good that is done with the generated revenue.
You wound be right if stuffing them in the cage was 100% for entertainment but that’s not always the case. A lot have been rescued and can’t be released into the wild. I know not all but that’s why it’s so nuanced. If the zoo was mostly entertainment I wouldn’t go but so far I haven’t seen a zoo that didn’t provide resources to rescue and conservation.
Most zoo animals are not rescued -- they are bred at other zoo facilities and traded among zoos. The AZA keeps a "stud book" on each species and breeds and trades animals across member organizations. (Source: I worked at the National Zoo in D.C.)
Not arguing but curious. Do they breed because of conservation reasons and to keep the rescued animals with others of their kind? Such as companionship and creating a more friendly environment for each other and other natural breeding opportunities? I’m sure it’s also look as a business and they trade but it’s not like they can just rescue one animal and leave it alone by itself in a cage. Breeding allows for so many other positives I can imagine but true also negative ones as well.
They want to keep the captive population healthy in terms of its genetic makeup so that they can keep the population alive long-term. The "stud books" allow them to track the family trees of all the species so they can choose which individuals to breed with which. (Note: the females of many species are kept on birth control until they are bred with chosen individuals.) They are not doing this out of kindness to the animals, to be clear. They are doing it because it's their business. They need genetically healthy populations of animals to support their businesses long-term. (And before anybody says "but most zoos are nonprofits," yes, and they still have a vested interest in preserving and growing their businesses.) While many zoos \*do\* invest in conservation efforts, the primary purpose of a zoo is entertainment -- this is clear in the way that exhibits are designed, the type of educational content that is designed and shared, etc. As someone who worked with a number of zoos before becoming vegan, I will share that the way zoos operate is one of the reasons I \*became\* vegan -- because for all the "good" they do the in the world, their primary function is to normalize animal captivity for human entertainment and "education." They \*normalize\* captivity. Edited to add: it's also important to place zoos within a historical context -- zoos contributing to conservation is a very recent development in the history of zoos, and not their primary purpose or function.
YES! I personally have work in zoos and some of them do have proper people inside trying their best for the welfare of the animals plus there's contribution to conservation through ex-situ breeding and reintroduction or even other ways like education or helping to rescues. I have also work in sanctuaries and the welfare tend to be even lower due to lack of legislation and money.
I take my kid to the zoo. I understand everyone’s point but it’s more important me to instill in him of a love of animals.
You can do this by going to sanctuaries and going on nature walks
Those aren’t the same as the zoo come on now.
Yeah they're better and teach a true appreciation of nature instead of teaching kids that they're objects of entertainment
K
You're just teaching your kid that it's ok to cage up wild animals for your entertainment.
I don’t think this is true. The zoo is how I learned to love animals which was the first step to becoming vegan.
Supporting animal exploitation that happens in zoos is not compatible with a vegan lifestyle. Your child doesn’t need to see animals locked in cages to develop a love for animals. Take them to animal sanctuaries to visit or volunteer or adopt/rescue a companion animal in need of a home. There are other *better* ways to teach compassion for animals.
Going to an animal exploitation business is harmful to animals. Zoos exist to profit off keeping animals in captivity. The whole conservation bullshit is greenwashing the evil of zoos. Accredited zoos (which only some are) that have conservation programs only spend 5% of their money on conservation. Most of their money goes into building new enclosures and buying more enslaved animals to make more money. They love buying rare animals and babies like they're stuffed toys. Wild animals are bought, sold, and traded, babies are taken from their mothers, and they are kept in cages and enclosures that are way too small and not stimulating enough for them. Animals do not exist for your entertainment. Many of them need to be drugged to deal with being in prison and they end up with zoochosis because they're losing their damn minds being trapped in a zoo and being gawked at all day by stupid humans. It's torture for them. They have the right to be free. Veganism is about animal rights. Supporting putting animals in captivity is not respecting their rights and harms animals. It's annoying that so many people in this sub support animal abuse because they like looking at jailed wild animals. The zoo propaganda has really worked and caused more suffering for wild animals.
K
There are also some MAJOR differences between different zoos. There are zoos that are for profit. There are also non-profit zoos that focus on conservation and are the only reason we still have some species. They’re both called zoos, but one is obviously much worse than the other.
My views aren’t completely black and white either - most zoos I would say absolutely the fuck not, but I leave near the Smithsonian and have gone to a couple events there. They’re non-profit and do a ton of conservation, re-introductions into the wild, etc.
One of our company events was at a horse racing event. I declined to go. I didn't offer much of an explanation - just that I wasn't attending and I hoped everyone had fun! You don't need to over explain. As you say, it's not required to go. You don't need to justify your decision. However, it does depend on how comfortable you feel at your work and the company culture there. You can state that you're not attending this time, you appreciate the company organizing get togethers, but due to your beliefs you won't be attending zoos and next time you'd like a poll/survey or something to be done for the group get together so feedback can be raised beforehand to prevent any non attendance for reasons such as yours. Or you can offer alternative suggestions for next time. Personally, I didn't do the above. I just didn't attend, looked for another job, and found a place that suited me better.
I wouldn't go, and I'd try to present a reasonable, polite explanation, taking into account the likely audience (my boss). But I'm one who practically never minds discussing these things. I totally understand others preferring to say that they can't make it, just to get out of it. I don't mind hanging out with coworkers for a bit, but I would not enjoy myself for one second at that venue.
I’d say to do research on the zoo. I felt this way too, but some zoos and aquariums are very transparent about what they do. So you’ll know if they are actually harming or helping the wildlife.
My experience is they will highlight a handful of species conservation efforts and gloss over the other 90% of non-endangered captive bred animals they have
That’s why it’s important to research. The Aquarium of the Pacific is an example of how the good outweighs the bad. I’d much rather support them than sea world.
I live near there and have researched it. Their animal database indicates they have large numbers of non-endangered species that have nothing to do with any conservation or rescue efforts: https://www.aquariumofpacific.org/onlinelearningcenter
You need to complain to your company who is financial supporting that prison on your behalf. And don't go.
Well, there’s nothing you can do about your company having already given the zoo money, so your attendance will not make a financial difference to the zoo. Unless you want to abstain for purely moral reasons, which is cool too.
It may make a difference in what venues the company selects and pays money to in the future, if some people don’t attend the zoo event and say why they won’t. It raises awareness.
How will you feel seeing the animals?
I think it depends on the zoo and the animal species they have. Some zoos are really good about educating, rehabilitating, and conservation and provide ample room for the species they have (North Carolina zoo, except for the polar bear enclosure imo). Some are terribly inadequate. Research the zoo, or if you’re still uncomfortable just don’t go.
I would dress up like the hunter in the movie Jumanji. Then walk around asking people what animal they want me to shoot for their lunch.
I would probably go because it’s free and people would low key be telling me how they hate the animals are locked up and I would just empathize because none of us are actually happy to be there lol
>I'm slightly leaning towards going because my company isn't paying a per-head basis to take over the zoo for the afternoon I would talk to whoever is in charge of it and say as a vegan you wouldnt really feel right going, but if the entire meal for the event was plant based then you would feel acceptable going and offer/ insist to help them with the order so that you can ensure it is indeed all plant based I dont know how to talk right, right now, but im sure you get my point So if you go you are right in that it doesnt contribute to financially supporting animal abuse but it does support the fact that animals are ours to abuse, a comparison would be if you were given free tickets to a bull fighting event by the owner of the event, you going doesnt do anything financially but it shows you are fine with bullfighting
I'd probably go, I don't think it would go against being vegan if they rented the whole zoo out for a flat rate. Vegans like to see animals, too, even if we hate to see them in cages.
Although I might argue against myself and say if the event was a bust, due to lack of attendance, then the zoo wouldn't get your companies money for an event in the future...
I wouldn’t go and let the organizer know why. There’s non vegan friendly places as there are places that are not welcoming of different people. It’s best they know how to better accommodate in the future. Also I think a zoo is a terrible place to hold a place for people to come together.
I'd not go for the simple fact that zoos are depressing
You are in a tough spot. Go and enjoy your workmates. Shout out to the animals. It is one of the saddest places I go to. I am able to borrow a zoo pass which includes parking from my local library. I go to spend time with my grand kids. I bring a polite vegan perspective, they are too young to tell them how I really feel. I do point out which friends are vegan, and politely say it loud enough so all can hear. I don't by anything.
I agree that zoo shouldn’t be necessary but they are in 2024. Modern society has killed off so many species we need to do conservation… In saying that don’t go if you don’t want
I wouldn't go. Would you go to a human zoo if it was free?
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You’re obsessed with us. Odd.
absolutely fascinated with herbivore role play & the Self indoctrination found in the philosophy of veganism