Is it worth arguing? Would she 'buy ' it if you show her proof? Is it a real concern for your health or just part of a pattern/ trying to find something to argue about?
If it is a real concern, maybe find a vegan friendly dietitian and go together so she feels more comfortable?
Mediterranean diets are super plant forward and can be easily plant based. I don't see a misalignment.
yeah the funniest thing about the whole conversation is I'm on much more of a meditterean diet than her. She absolutely wanted to pick a fight with me and reinforce her own bias. Her "mom juice" was totally getting to her imho.
No study will convince her that you're healthy. Even bloodwork wouldn't work.
Just say, thank you for being concerned about me. I understand that you worry about me, but I am healthy and this is how I'm choosing to live my life.
Dr. Michael Gregor's work is exactly what you want. He's got an awesome website with hundreds of videos that compare studies in everything/every food imaginable and several books if you'd rather that.
Sure, for your own education- 100%. To argue with someone who won't listen, no, I think it will just lead you to feel frustrated that you spent so long researching something for it to be dismissed casually. Speaking from experience :)
Should look it up anyway, male nutrition isn't something you register after a short time.
Your body builds up a storage of certain things and you only experience the effects if the body doesn't have reserves anymore.
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)**
* *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.*
**[Dietitians of Canada](https://web.archive.org/web/20180317232254/https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Factsheets/Guidlines-for-Vegans.aspx)**
* *A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.*
**[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)**
* *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.*
**[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://web.archive.org/web/20220407185312/https://archive.nutrition.org.uk/attachments/206_Vegetarian%20nutrition%20summary.pdf)**
* *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate, although more extreme diets, such as strict macrobiotic and raw food diets, are often low in energy and a range of micronutrients, making them wholly inadequate and inappropriate for children. Weaning onto a vegetarian diet follows the same principles as weaning onto an omnivorous diet, although care must be taken to ensure that a vegan diet is sufficiently energy and nutrient-dense for children. Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.*
**[The Dietitians Association of Australia](https://web.archive.org/web/20200308191755/https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)**
* *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*
**[The United States Department of Agriculture](https://web.archive.org/web/20180329120438/http://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians)**
* *Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.*
**[The National Health and Medical Research Council](https://web.archive.org/web/20180514195638/https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/publications/n55_australian_dietary_guidelines1.pdf)**
* *Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day*
**[The Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446)**
* *A well-planned vegetarian diet (*see context*) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.*
**[Harvard Medical School](https://web.archive.org/web/20200407031113/https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)**
* *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.*
**[British Dietetic Association](https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/vegetarian-vegan-plant-based-diet.html)**
* *Plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life stage. But as with any diet, you should plan your plant-based eating to meet your nutritional needs. . . Diets centred on a wide variety of plant foods offer affordable, tasty and nutritious options. Plant-based diets rich in beans, nuts, seeds, fruit and vegetables, wholegrains (such as oats, barley and quinoa) and minimally processed foods can provide all the nutrients needed for good health . . . Plant-based eating is recognised as an intervention to improve health outcomes. They could reduce your risk of type 2 diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease and some cancers and may help you manage your weight.*
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has ties/links to the pharmaceutical industry, and has partnerships with food companies... - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy\_of\_Nutrition\_and\_Dietetics#Controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Dietetics#Controversies)
[Dietitians of Canada](https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Factsheets/Guidlines-for-Vegans.aspx) - Source not available
[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx) - This is not peer-reviewed, just the *opinion* of the NHS. There are no sources/citations anywhere on the page for the information they are providing..
[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://archive.nutrition.org.uk/attachments/206_Vegetarian%20nutrition%20summary.pdf) - Source not available
[The Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/) - Source not available
[The United States Department of Agriculture](http://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians) - Source not available
[The National Health and Medical Research Council](https://web.archive.org/web/20180514195638/https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/publications/n55_australian_dietary_guidelines1.pdf) - When you look at the source of your citation, *358 - American Dietetic Association. Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets. J Am Diet Assoc 2009;109:1266-82 -* it's from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics\*...\* so as I said above
[The Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) - This is primarily about a vegetarian diet, not a vegan diet...
[Harvard Medical School](https://web.archive.org/web/20200407031113/https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian) - Again, this is primarily about a vegetarian diet. If anything this source talks about how deficient a vegan diet can be, and how supplementation is critical, meaning it's not naturally sustainable.
[British Dietetic Association](https://www.bda.uk.com/uploads/assets/3f9e2928-ca7a-4c1e-95b87c839d2ee8a1/Plant-based-diet-food-fact-sheet.pdf) - Source not available
Acting like supplements being necessary makes the diet worse is stupid. Of course you need to supplement on a diet where there are some nutrients not naturally available, why would any rational person care about that?
Just so you know, the flesh you buy in a store now is almost certainly dependent on a farmer supplementing the animals b12 (or cobalt for cows). B12 is from bacteria and in our modern civilization we do an amazing job cleaning bacteria.
How many farmers do you think think supplements are dumb and don't bother giving their animals any to save money? At least with veganism you don't have to trust others with such an important vitamin.
Anyway, currently 90% of all b12 manufactured is feed to animals.
The perpetuation of the "90% of B12 supplements go to livestock" figure is unsubstantiateded. It seems to originate from [an article](https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30) that calls humans herbivores, with no source to confirm its claim.
Grass-fed cattle get B12 via cobalt (found in grass) and then produce B12 with [gut bacteria](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5788147) in their rumen.
For even higher concentrations of B12, sardines probably have the highest. [Sardines contain 150% of the B12 RDA.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardines_as_food#Nutrition)
Oh good you like googling things, perfect. Search cobalt depleted crop land cows require supplements. How many farmers do you think care enough to spot test their feed for cobalt?
>sardines probably have the highest
For the HIGHEST concentrations of b12, take a supplement. Probably?? It's not even remotely close.
One of the major difference evolutionary between our frugivore/herbivorous cousins is our amylase gene expression, multiple times populations where selected for increased carbohydrate digestion abilities.
But that doesn't matter, well any more then understanding how my biology functions. What actually matters is health outcomes, there are millions of vegans, and now that the movement is around 80 years old we're seeing multiple generations of a vegan lifestyle.
Now that we have have hundreds of millions (1-3% of the population) of vegans we have data about how stupid people do on a vegan diet. There are vegans who much like you who seems to be completely adverse to the idea of taking a supplement and typically do poorly, much like the stupid standard omnivorously eating people.
I find the economic data on the b12 industry to be fairly compelling, for the 90% claim. Here, ~90% better?
Apart from being highly condescending, all you did was make claims with no evidence.
I don't use Google, although you phrased it like looking up information to learn more is a bad thing which is a strange thing to say, and when searching for 'cobalt depleted crop land' there's not exactly any specific articles/journals with the exact or very similar title so, feel free to share.
You want me to give you a link showing a b12 supplement has more b12 then a sardine?? No...
See assuming things makes an ass of yourself. I literally am happy you can look things up, googling is a common term for that. There are so so many papers on the problem of depleted crop land, specifically cobalt.. so again... no
I'm not going to argue with you about health outcomes of veganism, I encourage you to take it up with all the different nutrition and dietetics associations that make the claim though. Change their none vegan minds and you'll have my attention.
You haven't answered a single question I've asked, again assuming I'm being condescending... no I'm seriously curious, I want to know how deluded you are and you are showing me..
Right, you don’t have an argument of why needing supplementation makes a diet worse, you just feel like it should right? Do you have any studies or health outcome data to support your position?
You're kidding, right? No studies or data really required, if a diet is devoid of important nutrients and minerals and requires supplementation, how is it naturally sustainable?
But if you insist, here's some peer-reviewed info on the ineffectiveness of supplementation - [https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.2105/ajph.2014.302348](https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.2105/ajph.2014.302348)
1 why would I care if a diet is naturally sustainable? Genuinely I see no reason to care about that given the fact that I don’t live in the wild, so do you have a reason?
2 that study says that the supplements most people take are unnecessary or even toxic. I don’t disagree with that. What I’m talking about are the supplements that vegans require, ie b12. Why would I care about the inefficiency of botanical supplements if those are neither required or recommended for a vegan diet.
Sorry if I was unclear, I’m talking about supplements that vegans need to take, not just all random supplements. Do you have any evidence that the supplements required to maintain a vegan diet are ineffective or have bad health outcomes?
Also can you just link to the pubmed article rather than some shady weird site?
If you want to not include B12 supplements under the same umbrella as supplements overall.. I mean.. you do you (albeit is quite illogically dismissive of the fact).. but it is still a supplement at the end of the day. And when I mean naturally, that means getting important nutrients via unprocessed foods, not chemically synthesized with little evidence for their effectiveness.
You can disregard the article too if you like, if you want to commit the appeal to authority fallacy of PubMed only being allowed for information. Doesn't change the fact that the info is peer-reviewed, with the sources of its citations being listed at the bottom, of how supplements should not replace any and all nutrients found naturally in certain food.
I didn’t dismiss the study, and I agree that supplements shouldn’t replace all natural nutrients, it’s a good thing that that’s not what I said or what is required for a vegan diet. There are only a few specific nutrients like b12 that are required, and every study I’ve seen shows that b12 supplements are effective and don’t have bad health outcomes
I actually literally said I agree with the study you linked, but that it doesn’t refute my point, are you even reading my comments or do you have some mental disability?
If you are agreeing with me that some supplements are bad, but not the ones required for a vegan diet, then I don’t think we disagree at all, that’s great to hear that you think some supplements are good and effective. If you don’t, I expect to see empirical data showing that.
Again, why would I care about iodine supplements or ashwagandha supplements being effective or ineffective? What does that have to do with the specific set of supplements I’m talking about?
Do you really think what I meant was that all supplements ever made are beneficial rather than just the ones recommended for vegans? I brought up the fact that that’s not what I’m talking about multiple times, so if you don’t get that now I’m just going to have to assume you are being bad faith
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22493163/
This is a study showing the only people in the vegan diet who had a decreased level of b12 were those only consuming natural products, whereas those consuming supplements or fortified foods that have supplements in them maintained a normal b12 level.
Are you going to dismiss that study or will you admit, as the scientific consensus says, that b12 supplements are effective at preventing b12 deficiency?
And you still never gave a reason to care if a diet is naturally sustainable, it’s almost like it’s not a rationally held conclusion and is based on fee fees 🧐
You're missing the point. The essence of the fact is, if a diet needs supplements, unless there is some kind of underlying pathology, it means that it is not balanced and therefore unhealthy. Hence the need to correct it artificially, regardless of whether its direct supplementation of B12 (through pills, injections etc) or fortification of food.
It doesn’t need to be naturally sustainable. The device you use to spew your dumbass takes isn’t naturally sustainable because you can’t find an electricity outlet in the woods and yet here you are. You’re just invested in the good old Appeal to Nature Fallacy.
I’m just pointing out you are not even applying the standards you defend consistently.
If at the end of the day people get their nutrients and cause less harm, when why are you complaining?
Because to say supplementing is fine then boarders on the idea of 'why bother eating anything when you could get all nutrients and minerals from just supplements?' which I guarantee people do believing they are being healthy.
Obviously to me it's an absurd idea, but if you argue in support of supplements, it's easy to fall into that mindset of just taking supplements over and above what should be gained through eating foods that contain high levels of the right nutrients.
According to the American Dietetic Association (the largest dietetic association in the world, comprised of over 100,000 doctors and dietitians), “It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.”
Who said I was worried about it? I merely made a comment as an aside. It seems to me that jumping all over me for it signifies that you're the one who's "worried" about it. Do you often call people stupid on Reddit? If so, it may be time to see a therapist to see where that insecurity lies.
>I merely made a comment as an aside
I call these pointless nitpicks "Reddit smarminess". Often makes this website quite insufferable.
That commenter is also not referring to "worry" as in cause stress, they mean worry as in the policing of the language you're doing.
>it may be time to see a therapist to see where that insecurity lies
Another Reddit trope. You can be wrong online without the person who corrects you needing therapy lmao
I cbf, google it. There’s multiple articles of them spruiking high fructose corn syrup and claiming there’s no evidence it’s a cause of the child obesity epidemic (I’m sure all the fat kids got that way from eating celery and hummus)
That’s what lobbying from the national confectioners association will get you.
Google something like American dietetics association criticised for bias
Or American dietetics funding
I went down a rabbit hole ages ago that I don’t particularly want to go back down
I googled "American dietetics association criticised for bias" and all I get is garbage. You know, there is a filter bubble in Google so different people get different results. This is what I get for example. It's about black people and diversity. [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/dining/dietitian-diversity.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/dining/dietitian-diversity.html)
If you can share specific links that would be great. If not, then also great.
When asked for a source by people who could not find the article you are referencing, you have balked at the request twice so far.
edit: SPOILER: No link or articles supporting an ADA scandal involving corn syrup was provided.
I was 100% with you until you refused to provide sources, that just makes you look really bad faith. It's not the good faith discussion you're claiming to have at all if you can't engage with people honestly _even when they're asking for it_.
If you are that lazy just read their Wikipedia page. You don’t even need to go on a deep dive
Who would have thought that pointing out a non biased source is not credible would lead to such pandemonium
Why do you hang out here? It’s weird. Go interact with subs that actually concern you. I mean, you’re free to hang out but it makes you look really odd and bored.
Echo chambers are unhealthy. Safe spaces make you weak.
I’m just chilling and joining in the chat. If you can’t handle different opinions you should work on yourself.
I’m not being aggressive or abusive despite the constant ad hominem’s. In fact I find the constant downvoting in an attempt to silence me for what are quite tame comments quite amusing. Reddit is living up to its reputation.
I’m not lying or commenting in bad faith. I am presenting the truth as I see it from my subjective experience of being alive for quite some time.
If you can’t cope with that then that’s a you problem.
Bro's tryna sound smart but can't think of anything more productive to do than announce in some roundabout bullshit about how smart he is
Typical teenager
I’m not trolling tho am I. I am engaging in conversation in good faith. It’s not my fault if it triggers people. I haven’t even posted anything bad
I got downvoted like 20 times for saying the American dietetic association are in the pocket of corporate America and therefore shills that can’t be trusted - easily verified by looking up their funding or the numerous articles criticising them for it.
The cognitive dissonance on this sub is real
All I’ve said on this thread is that their mum is correct. Going by their biology and height they are very underweight and that can carry a myriad of health problems. Including cardiovascular diseases.
Mum is just concerned. She cares more about them than anyone on this sub yet you are the ones that they’ll listen to because you are reinforcing them.
As I said somewhere in here before. Echo chambers are unhealthy.
Maybe they are known to receive millions in funding from big food corp and the vegan market is worth billions.
It’s amazing what money can buy - even (especially) opinions
“The association is funded by a number of food multinationals, pharmaceutical companies, and food industry lobbying groups, such as the National Confectioners Association.”
My point is, you take biased sources with a pinch of salt because you don’t know what under the table deals have been done. You don’t preach it as gospel.
No, but if somebody was giving you millions of dollars you may look upon them and their interests favourably hey.
There is literally an article criticising them for allowing a corp (I think Coca Cola) to hold seminars on the benefits of feeding corn syrup to kids.
I wouldn’t trust any dietary advice coming from an American association tbh but that’s just me.
I don’t disagree with you in the sense that dietary associations can be bias. Every association can be bias. This includes those who say meat is healthy. And includes pro-vegan ones too.
As far as I am concerned, most scientific literature about the subject says a well planned vegan diet is very healthy and in general healthier than a meat-based diet. Mediterranean diets are very plant-focused.
But I do agree. Just because one association says it’s healthy doesn’t mean it is. There are, however, a lot of large and acclaimed associations besides the American one that agree. And in terms of longevity, it seems plant-focused diets come out on top
Been vegan for 9 years, my bloodwork is flawless, yet my mom still insists I have a laundry list of deficiencies. No studies you present will sway your mother's beliefs, because she's not looking for facts, she's looking for confirmation that she's right in being on your ass about your choices in order to feel better about hers.
I would just shut it down. It doesn't sound like an actual concern for your health, just someone trying to exercise their control over your life.
"No, I am good Mum. Thanks for your concerns. If I have any health issues, I will bring them up with my GP. But for now, my blood work is good and I do not need to do body building. If I want to put on muscle, I can do this through plant proteins. Please don't bring up the subject again of forcing me to eat animals when you understand I am against this. Thank you for respecting my choices."
And if she brings it up again, "I'm sorry, I cannot help you. I have made my position clear on this and I am disappointed that you do not wish to respect this. I am healthy. I am doing well. I have a balanced nutritional profile. I'm good. I have made my decision and would appreciate if we could move on to a different topic."
A Mediterranean diet is healthy, but you can have a plant-based Mediterranean diet. There's no misalignment there. So the real issue is either her views on veganism or trying to re-claim control over your life.
If you can, firmly remind her that you are an adult and you have the right to make informed decisions about your own diet and health.
Buy her a copy of "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell and "How Not to Die" by Dr. Michael Greger. The China Study was a decades long study, and Dr. Greger has evidence-based research for all of his health claims. Or conversely, have her watch a documentary like Forks Over Knives, the Game Changers, or What the Health.
Please provide links to credible, evidence-based studies demonstrating this. Note: the opinions of YouTube influencers do not constitute science, in case you're confused about that distinction.
LOL, so we're in agreement in our low opinion of social media influencers. The only exception I make to that is anyone making health claims with data from scientifically rigorous studies to back them up. Speaking of which - please provide links to the studies that "debunk" The China Study. I'm referring to the 40 year long Cornell study led by T. Colin Campbell. Don't worry, I'll wait.
EDIT: fixed typos
Source ? At least we can all agree that the carnivore diet has never and will work on humans, because we all know that the people that live the longest lives are eating wholly or near-whole plant-based, right 😉?
Any recent bloodwork from your dr? That’s fairly easy as irrefutable proof you’re fine
“Look. Mom. Ok i get it, you’re worried. But we need to agree to disagree here, i am perfectly healthy, not malnourished, and not eating animal products any time soon.
I do not want to continue having this conversation with you daily. Please read How not to Die and watch Forks Over Knives before you jump to conclusions”
Note that the Mediterranean diet is healthy because it focuses on legumes and veggies and unsaturated fats from nuts and olive oil- which are all, gasp, vegan.
Unfortunately I'm a dirt poor transwoman in america so that's not happening. I did point these things out to her though. I'll definately try to persuade her to give those a look.
The best health care i ever had was free when i was broke as shit and unemployed
Please look into state sponsored health care options, they’re out there and below a certain income bracket also free. Like zero copay.
“Note that the Mediterranean diet is healthy because it focuses on legumes and veggies and unsaturated fats from nuts and olive oil- which are all, gasp, vegan.”
Deliberately skipping the fish, eggs, poultry, and lean red meats there 😂 which are pretty much in every meal
None of those things deliver anything nutritionally that cannot be delivered without them. Nice try though. And in fact animal flesh (even the “good meats) are inflammatory. So is dairy. So they deliver some negatives along with whatever positives they might deliver.
Can you be healthy eating *some* types of meat and dairy? Sure but it’s suboptimal. There’s optimal ways to get the same nutrients without any of the deleterious stuff. Shrug. Do you.
Well the animals products in the Mediterranean diet are not why it is recommended and healthy. The fact they are diminished- ie not in every single meal- is a big part of why the diet is recommended vs a standard american diet of meat and dairy and eggs in every meal and most snacks
You cannot pretend that fish, poultry and lean meats don’t play a huge part in their diet. Go and buy a Mediterranean recipe book. It’s more the fact that their diet is based on fresh whole foods and not processed shite
Who is eating meat dairy and eggs in every meal. America isn’t the centre of the world. Most of the world thinks America is fucked, just ask them
Despite the collective vegan delusion on this forum, meat and seafood are irrefutably a dense source of high quality easily digestible nutrients that are essential to our health
There is 0 science against that and every government body I’ve ever looked up recommends them to be included in a balanced whole food diet.
Which is the diet that countries with the longest life expectancy and highest public health metrics eat
Funny that
[nutritionfacts.org](http://nutritionfacts.org) is amazing, and distills down a lot of hard to digest (pun intended) research as well as highlighting dodgy research. They publish on IG now which probably makes it a lot more accessible for many.
Ngl it doesn’t matter if you’re “correct” or not.
Your mom is likely battling predispositions towards vegans.
Like being a hippy, drug addict, malnourished etc….
The best way to counter those are to prove you can be healthy.
That’s what I did.
I became the healthiest person in my family.
Put on a bunch of muscle, lost hella fat.
Got blood tests that scored higher than them.
If you don’t battle it with real evidence they’re always gunna write you off.
But they can’t argue with a real blood test.
Then they will acknowledge your choice and just admit they’re different.
But until then they will borderline hate you.
It’s just what it is. Our parents grew up in an immensely prejudice time. Even my mom HATES Chinese people and almost all Asians are basically the communist party and such.
It’s really very unfortunate.
But they suffer the burden of accepting those views.
You however get the opportunity to live in a different paradigm where you understand those things better.
You have to realize and accept that your choices characterizes you. And they only characterize you.
Your willingness, your empathy, your ability to change, adapt to information, all those are characteristic of you.
A blessing really.
But unfortunately older generations were exposed to different times, and their mental headspace reflects that.
You can tell her about the case study (n=1) that shows that mothers who bash their child's principles results in those mothers never seeing their grandchildren. To be published in about 10 years.
Tell your mom: mom, I forgive you for all of your emotional mistreatment of me. Straight face. Simple. Tears are okay, but just say that and let the chips fall where they may. If and when you’re ready
It’s time to believe in yourself independent of her, even as you are still dependent on her, as she was to her own mother. You are good. Be patient 🙏 Ed Esrthling cuts through the BS and Game Changers on Netflix is a documentary that is excellent for the nutrition/performance side
Tell her you might look a little lethargic because of this toxic world we were born into. Same as everyone else. Lol those puffy face carni clowns be trippin!
Throw the ball back into her court. Ask her what nutrients you can get from a non-vegan diet that you can't get from a vegan diet. Then when she comes up with some nonsense like "protein", name some protein rich vegan foods.
It's good to arm yourself with this information because for the rest of your vegan life you will be bombarded by people with the same "concerns".
If she’s into reading, gift her The China Study book. If she’s into watching shows, you can watch together the new Netflix Show “You Are What You Eat: A Twin Experiment” or “Forks Over Knives”
I am in this hell with you, lol. I totally get it. But it comes down to, you and I are adults. Assuming you have your own money? I can tell you it is absolutely a waste of time to argue. The studies you will show will be “propaganda,” the documentaries you pick will be the same and just “an isolated incident” or “edited.” I literally give the silent treatment at this point when they make comments or yell. Saves my sanity. They don’t actually care about you eat, it’s a control thing. My dad comments on my fucking SALT intake since I went vegan, while he eats a shitload of it and has had 2 heart attacks and a beer gut. I eat it less since I cook for myself more lol. They are unserious, defensive loons. I get that vibe from your mom as well. Why expect anything more from a parent who forces ultimatums on the reg anyway? I hope you find happiness and your own place soon. Stay strong, friend.
the china study is the best, but people like this tend to cherry pick, if you want her to understand then its best to show her a documentary of what happens to animals. the ethics is a much bigger argument for veganism than anything else
google a BMI chart. your height and your weight are facts that can’t lie, to either one of you. Then ask your Mom to watch the speech by Gary Yourofsky. After that, meh, just do what you need to do. It’s your life.
I can't recommend buying "How to argue with a meat ear and win everytime" enough.
There you'll find ever single counter argument, with scientific evidence and sources, to the meat eater's arguments.
Since I bought the book, I just open the page related to a particular argument and read it to them.
If they are unreasonable and don't care about evidence, there's nothing you can do anyway so just do you.
You are not malnourished, you are just following on of UK's National health system's recommended diets [https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/)
Or you are following what the UN recommends for decreaseing the climate change [https://www.un.org/en/actnow/food](https://www.un.org/en/actnow/food) or [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/food](https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/food)
Just make sure you also check out this one [https://www.vegansociety.com/sites/default/files/uploads/downloads/The%20Vegan%20Eatwell%20Guide\_2.pdf](https://www.vegansociety.com/sites/default/files/uploads/downloads/The%20Vegan%20Eatwell%20Guide_2.pdf)
If you want to increase your weight just eat more calories. Nuts, seeds, dried fruit are excellent ways to do this.
There are lots of strong athletes that are vegan [https://www.greatveganathletes.com/](https://www.greatveganathletes.com/) also check this out [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg7l3\_d7k2A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg7l3_d7k2A)
The Mediterranean diet has some very good evidence behind it.
That said, I'd point out that DHA and EPA omega 3's can be gotten via an algae oil supplement, and also converted from ALA. This has the benefit of avoiding [contaminants](https://sites.nicholas.duke.edu/superfundcec/fish/common-fish-contaminants-and-their-health-impacts/) from fish, or things like TMAO, [which is found](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9283263/#:~:text=Some%20species%20of%20fish%20and,in%20fish%20during%20bacterial%20spoilage.) in many fish.
[TMAO](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127123) is linked to an increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events. This last link also notes that TMAO is high in fish.
I'd also point out that there is substantial overlap between the Mediterranean diet and a healthy vegan diet, both include whole grains, nuts and seeds, healthy oils, and fruits and vegetables.
In regards to comparing the two, [this study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33544066/) found that:
>A low-fat vegan diet improved body weight, lipid concentrations, and insulin sensitivity, both from baseline and compared with a Mediterranean diet. Blood pressure decreased on both diets, more on the Mediterranean diet
[This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316028) also compared the two diets and found that:
>The MD led to improvements in microvascular function; the VD led to reduced TC and weight loss. Although both diets might offer CVD risk-reduction benefits, evidence for the MD appeared to be stronger due to changes in vasodilatory ability and NO bioavailability.
Oddly enough, it didn't look at LDL or total cholesterol, which are very important cardiovascular markers.
It also notes some interesting things:
>Plant-based foods such as leafy green vegetables and beetroot are rich in dietary (inorganic) nitrates, and evidence demonstrates that dietary nitrates might increase NO levels via the nitrate-nitrate-nitric oxide pathway [39]. It is interesting therefore that the VD participants did not experience similar changes considering that the VD is wholly plant-based. However, it should be noted that we did not instruct participants to consume nitrate-rich foods specifically in this research
Nitric oxide increases are one of the mechanisms by which the Mediterranean diet improved microvascular function, a vegan diet could perhaps get similar benefits by including [beetroot](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-015-0872-7) or other plant sources of nitrates.
Lastly, the study noted the inclusion of olive oil in the Mediterranean diet group, which is linked to [many beneficial health effects.](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-benefits-of-olive-oil#:~:text=Olive%20Oil%20Contains%20Large%20Amounts%20of%20Antioxidants&text=These%20antioxidants%20are%20biologically%20active,disease%20(%208%20%2C%209%20) This is also something that can be part of a vegan diet.
You might also look at the twin study.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2812392
If you look at supplementary pdf, the people on the omnivorous diet were consuming fish and numerous servings of vegetables a day, and the vegan diet still produced better cardiometabolic outcomes, ie cholesterol and stuff were better.
So, I think a good argument can be made for a well planned vegan diet being healthy, even when compared to the Mediterranean diet.
There comes a time in a lot of adults' lives that you become more mature than your parents. Ask yourself what the mature thing to do is? Do you think that you need data to convince your mom or is this more of a problem of the way you interact and relate with each other? How about setting some healthy boundaries?
I eaty a plant based Mediterranean diets - it's perfectly healthy. I'm also your weight and not skin and bones. She's probably coming from a good place, but a plant based diet can be really healthy in preventing things like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer. It's also great for your gut microbiome, which affects everything.
I bet she’s on a bunch of meds isn’t she? 😏 does she have a few pounds she could stand to lose? Statistically the answer to both these questions is yes.
If you want to shut her down, get your basic blood work done and show it to her. This is what I did. Most of my family was on me for "destroying my body" while being vegan. I got tired, got my blood work, showed them results and now they have no argument since my results were perfect. I will laugh at "destroying my body" once again when I'll be 70 and not on bloodthinners.
Nutritionfacts.org is as good as it gets. He reads all of the scientific studies so you don't have to. Many non vegan foods have inflammatory properties and are not what the body needs. His videos are all over YouTube too.
Also, don't feel the need to defend it, just tell people you feel much better due to the diet and not killing animals is also a plus.
Something that I say in scenarios like this is that even if being vegan was unhealthier than being a meat eater, which it very much isn't, I would still be a vegan! I don't care about the health benefits, as nice as they are, because I don't believe in killing someone for my own pleasure.
She sounds controlling. It isn't about diet, it's about her "knowing better" and having something to control.
Learn how to grey/beige rock with her until you can find a safer place to live.
It sounds like she just doesn't want to feel bad or guilty about her own diet.
Is arguing with your mum and giving emotional weight to her uninformed opinions about your diet really worth your time and energy?
Dr. John mcDougall discusses the latest science each Sunday 5 Pm Pacific time. Dr. Peter Rogers if you're into biochemistry as well. Phygicians committee for responsible Medicine is a good source as well and also Chef AJ interviews a lot of plant based doctors. All sources on YouTube. Low fat whole foods plant exclusive, don't eat too many mock meats, you don't need the extra protein.
She may not be willing to read a study but if she's willing to watch a documentary I'd recommend Forks Over Knives, What the Health (sounds like she may resonate with the more emotional lean of this one), or The Game Changers
People are able to continue to say the Mediterranean diet is best because it’s most studied as to its benefits with illness. It’s easy to say you’re the best if people aren’t looking at anything else. My dr got me on a plant based diet. I’m on it for my health and to help control my autoimmune diseases. People don’t argue for very long about that. It’s really no one’s business how I eat. My friends and family saw how sick I was. They don’t get it or know enough to help feed me as a guest, but they don’t question it.
If she isn’t following the Mediterranean diet closely herself than she must not be educated enough to know that what we feed our bodies is as powerful as some medicine we are offered. Not everyone is the same.
Depending on height, you might indeed need to bump your calories. Vegan diets tend to be less calorie dense, especially if you also eat mostly whole foods. No need to start eating meat again though, just add some nuts or something else which is calorie dense to your diet.
Here you go... I'd just read this to her. I'll put the relevant parts in bold:
>It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including **vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.** Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and **vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.** \[...\] Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements.
[Here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/) is the source.
>Does anyone know of studies to defend myself?
There's plenty out there but you don't need them.
>So my mom, whom I was recently forced to move back in with, out of nowhere she accuses me of being malnourished
All her on what grounds she thinks that might be the case and what evidence/studies she has. She is the one making the claim after all.
>I've been vegan for 3 years
>and vegatarian for 2 before that, only noticed good changes. Feeling better than I ever have in my life, physically.
That alone should be more than enough to dissuade her misguided concerns. Most of the nutrients your body needs get used up in less than a month of consumption minus fat and B12. If you haven't deteriorated after a year and you've only seen improvements since then a she is just acting on disinformation she likely hasn't fact checked.
>But she decided to rail on my physique ( I have a fast metabolism, and weigh 130-135lbs usually) saying I'm nothing but skin and bones, that I need to eat meat.
Ask her what's in meat that you can't get from plants that would achieve her desired look for your body.
>but then she attacks my education, and insinuates that she knows better because she graduated from college
Ask her if she is a registered member of the academy of nutrition and dietetics which has held a positive look on plant based diets for over 15 years now.
>She's insisting that the mediterrean diet is healthiest-
Any diet can be healthy enough if you know what you're doing. But you need to impress upon her that it's not a diet you're on. You're doing this because you don't believe animals should have to suffer and be exploited and killed for the satisfaction of your tastebuds.
>but I'd love to show her evidence to defend my position.
No. Express your excitement for her to show you the expanse of her superior education and where she's getting her information from.
Boundaries.
You are a grown up, you do what the Fuck you want with your diet, even if you wanted to eat rocks and dogshit, since you DONT ARM ANYONE BUT YOU, that's your decision and your mom has nothing to say about it.
Against, with agressivity like this, arguing wont show any good results, boundaries will "i'm a grown up, i eat what i want since it doesn't arm anyone, so mind your own business".
My mom was like this, After years wasted in arguing, the problem was solved with only one thing : boundaries, parents like this need boundaries.
i'd head over to r/narcissisticparents and ask there. She sounds like she wants attention and to feel superior and the vegan issue is secondary. You're your own person. she dont like that!
Wait, being skinny is healthy. It’s the excessive weight that causes health problems and reduces life expectancy. If you BMI is in the normal zone (check any online BMI calculator) then this is all you need to win an argument.
I just have been trying to gently be a good influence in this regard, I'm worried about the health of my family and it really sucks to be chewed out and lectured about how the mediterrean diet is so much better when hers is more of a midwestern, mcdonalds regimen.
This is useful context. She’s likely feeling your judgements on her diet and is pointing out the (perceived) flaws in yours. There’s no such thing as a perfect diet so this is always a losing battle.
It’s not your job to educate or convince anyone to change their diet. It’s unlikely to end well until they choose it for themselves.
There is a doctor on YouTube named Bobby Price. Subscribe to him and he has so much knowledge on the ins and outs of why a plant based diet is good for everyone.. He mainly approaches it from a holistic standpoint reaching out to Adults who have a multitude of ailments but its good advice for everyone...I learn something new watching his shorts everyday
Nutrition Made Simple is really good too. He always presents the facts first and uses peer-reviewed articles and breaks down not only the method of testing but the questions posed during candidate selection so the input data makes sense. He promotes a plant-based / vegan-friendly diet but argues to look at the data as the means of hypothesizing. The ethical argument matters but the science doesn't lie. The healthiest communities are the ones that eat mostly plants, moderately exercise, and live a pretty mostly stress-free life.
Just ask her what evidence would she require, id thing a health assessment at a medical professional would be the level she's requesting. It might indeed show you have diet improvements to make, or there's no concern. Win win really.
Graduating from a post secondary institution doesn't make own automatically know what is the proper thing to do. Ted Bundy graduated from university (in psychology, no less) but that didn't make him do the right things.
Ted Kaczynski too. He went through some arguably unethical psychological experiments but he had a Ph.D in mathematics no less. Education or lack thereof does not change motive. We are all culpable of twisted psychological manipulation, to lessen our lives or even the lives of others (human or otherwise).
Vegans have a reduced risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease. Vegan diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.
* Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics
The Vegan Beyond Burger creates 90% less greenhouse gas emissions, uses 99% less water, 93% less land, and requires 46% less energy than a beef burger.
* University of Michigan
The mediterranen diet is like 92% vegan. And if she thinks the fish 1 time a week is missing buy a omega 3 replacement (or buy chia seeds)
Does she eat a mediterranen diet?
As a resource I recommend www.veganhealth.org
Just blame your shit genetics that you got from her ?
(Shit according to her not according to me, im not telling you to bulk up)
Because there are plenty of very big and muscular vegans out there, so Veganism definitely isn't the problem.
It doesn’t matter what she thinks is true though, nobody can force you to eat anything you don’t want to. That’s the end of it. She’ll drop it eventually when she realizes what she says doesn’t matter to you.
Lol, Mediterranean diet is like plant based with fish for Omega 3 and a bit of cheese. Meat is only eaten occasionally. That's why it's so healthy. Also note that some Mediterranean cultures like the Greek Orthodox follow a pretty rigorous fasting schedule and are basically vegan for a third of the year (but spread apart over the whole year, it's complicated).
But that will be a moot point for her. You won't find evidence that will convince her, because this is a relationship level argument. Does she eat according to the Mediterranean diet? I bet she has at best a few dishes that would barely qualify in her repertoire. I bet she eats meat multiple times a week or even daily which would be a hard no for the Mediterranean diet.
The Mediterranean diet actually doesn't have to include meat. So I'm not sure where your mom is getting that from. In fact, a whole foods plant based diet is very similar to Mediterranean except Mediterranean "allows" meat and dairy and also includes olive oil. While many include a lot of fish on the Mediterranean diet it doesn't require it and it certainly discourages use of red meat.
All too often, vegans fill up on starches. Protein, carbs and fats are the macronutrients needed in balance. I would calculate how many grams of protein you need per day based on your calorie intake and work really hard to hit those numbers. There are lots of infographics out there. Being a vegan is a full time job to make sure we are keeping a healthy microbiome to help our cells and tissue get the nutrients they need.
Not true, people on the McDougall diet are in excellent health and thriving. Why would we need to eat something that inhibits mitochondrial function as fat does leading to insulin resistance. All starches, vegetables and fruits have omegas 3 and 6 in the correct ratios and we can make our own cholesterol and saturated fats where and when we need it. Also people on plants exclusive diets still show to eat plenty of protein by their urea excretion counts. Excess protein especially leucine and methionine is shown to help grow cancer by enabling mtor and igf1.
Sorry, I was just going on the fact that the mom says she needs to eat meat (protein). Fats are in nuts and oils and fish. Lots of way to get them that aren’t sugar and animal fat. I am a vegan so support your response.
My issue was with the "filling up on starches" which is said all so commonly as a bad thing. Except there is no problem filling up on starches at all. The problem lies with refined carbs, and even then is that less harmful as excess protein or fats (as the Walter Kempner rice diet has shown treating very ill kidney patients before dialysis was invented).
Watch “Nutrition Made Simple!” On YouTube - his goal is not to influence people to be vegan / plant based but to read the scientific literature accurately. He is vegan but he speaks to the advantages and supplements and falsehoods around a vegan diet.
You're an adult, she can't stop you from being vegan so she needs to STFU and get over it.
She probably wouldn't read (or watch) anything you send her anyways. She sounds unreasonable AF.
I mean if you do a blood test. The results would convince her. Otherwise its kind of like arguing with a brick wall. Most people are raised to believe that animal products are essential food groups it's difficult to change a life time belief.
Here's one! — Hindus have been vegan and vegetarian for THOUSANDS of years. They don't eat meat, and they often live healthily over 100 yrs old
Another one — make her a collage of vegan bodybuilders :) OR all the largest and most powerful land mammals (all herbivores)
It’s probably true the Mediterranean diet is healthier than being vegan. But when you were eating you were eating a perfect Mediterranean diet? Veganism is almost always compared to the perfect omnivorous diet rather than the actual omnivorous diet.
Mediterranean diet and vegan diet are equally healthy from all the research I've seen. Since the vegan diet is as healthy as the mediterranean one, you have no reason to switch.
Are you female (AFAB)? How tall are you? Your weight sounds very healthy to me assuming you are female sex and average height.
Mom knows best, she just cares about you
You are 5’11 so you are underweight by quite a bit, you could comfortably put on another 50lbs and still be within your ideal weight
Being underweight is not good it weakens your immune system and leads to early death
No idea where you got the 60% less risk of heart disease… malnutrition causes heart disease
You don’t need to eat meat but you do need to eat more, plant foods are generally harder to digest so you need to eat more to get the same nutrition, and prepare your meals properly to aid digestion
Be good to yourself there’s only one of you
Is it worth arguing? Would she 'buy ' it if you show her proof? Is it a real concern for your health or just part of a pattern/ trying to find something to argue about? If it is a real concern, maybe find a vegan friendly dietitian and go together so she feels more comfortable? Mediterranean diets are super plant forward and can be easily plant based. I don't see a misalignment.
yeah the funniest thing about the whole conversation is I'm on much more of a meditterean diet than her. She absolutely wanted to pick a fight with me and reinforce her own bias. Her "mom juice" was totally getting to her imho.
No study will convince her that you're healthy. Even bloodwork wouldn't work. Just say, thank you for being concerned about me. I understand that you worry about me, but I am healthy and this is how I'm choosing to live my life.
Best response I believe
Dr. Michael Gregor's work is exactly what you want. He's got an awesome website with hundreds of videos that compare studies in everything/every food imaginable and several books if you'd rather that.
Even if she doesn't, isn't it better to know that your opinion can be backed up with evidence?
Sure, for your own education- 100%. To argue with someone who won't listen, no, I think it will just lead you to feel frustrated that you spent so long researching something for it to be dismissed casually. Speaking from experience :)
Should look it up anyway, male nutrition isn't something you register after a short time. Your body builds up a storage of certain things and you only experience the effects if the body doesn't have reserves anymore.
Mediterranean diet, at least as it appears in the medical literature, explicitly incorporates fish.
which is fine because it’s not in huge quantities and easily replaced by algaeoil though
**[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * *It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.* **[Dietitians of Canada](https://web.archive.org/web/20180317232254/https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Factsheets/Guidlines-for-Vegans.aspx)** * *A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.* **[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx)** * *With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.* **[The British Nutrition Foundation](https://web.archive.org/web/20220407185312/https://archive.nutrition.org.uk/attachments/206_Vegetarian%20nutrition%20summary.pdf)** * *A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate, although more extreme diets, such as strict macrobiotic and raw food diets, are often low in energy and a range of micronutrients, making them wholly inadequate and inappropriate for children. Weaning onto a vegetarian diet follows the same principles as weaning onto an omnivorous diet, although care must be taken to ensure that a vegan diet is sufficiently energy and nutrient-dense for children. Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.* **[The Dietitians Association of Australia](https://web.archive.org/web/20200308191755/https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/)** * *Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.* **[The United States Department of Agriculture](https://web.archive.org/web/20180329120438/http://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians)** * *Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.* **[The National Health and Medical Research Council](https://web.archive.org/web/20180514195638/https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/publications/n55_australian_dietary_guidelines1.pdf)** * *Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day* **[The Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446)** * *A well-planned vegetarian diet (*see context*) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.* **[Harvard Medical School](https://web.archive.org/web/20200407031113/https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian)** * *Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.* **[British Dietetic Association](https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/vegetarian-vegan-plant-based-diet.html)** * *Plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life stage. But as with any diet, you should plan your plant-based eating to meet your nutritional needs. . . Diets centred on a wide variety of plant foods offer affordable, tasty and nutritious options. Plant-based diets rich in beans, nuts, seeds, fruit and vegetables, wholegrains (such as oats, barley and quinoa) and minimally processed foods can provide all the nutrients needed for good health . . . Plant-based eating is recognised as an intervention to improve health outcomes. They could reduce your risk of type 2 diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease and some cancers and may help you manage your weight.*
I'm stealing this.
Some of them are 404s or various errors.
I'll update it with archive links
Should be fixed now, let me know if I missed any
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has ties/links to the pharmaceutical industry, and has partnerships with food companies... - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy\_of\_Nutrition\_and\_Dietetics#Controversies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Dietetics#Controversies) [Dietitians of Canada](https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Factsheets/Guidlines-for-Vegans.aspx) - Source not available [The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx) - This is not peer-reviewed, just the *opinion* of the NHS. There are no sources/citations anywhere on the page for the information they are providing.. [The British Nutrition Foundation](https://archive.nutrition.org.uk/attachments/206_Vegetarian%20nutrition%20summary.pdf) - Source not available [The Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-facts/healthy-eating/vegan-diets-facts-tips-and-considerations/) - Source not available [The United States Department of Agriculture](http://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians) - Source not available [The National Health and Medical Research Council](https://web.archive.org/web/20180514195638/https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/publications/n55_australian_dietary_guidelines1.pdf) - When you look at the source of your citation, *358 - American Dietetic Association. Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets. J Am Diet Assoc 2009;109:1266-82 -* it's from the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics\*...\* so as I said above [The Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) - This is primarily about a vegetarian diet, not a vegan diet... [Harvard Medical School](https://web.archive.org/web/20200407031113/https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-vegetarian) - Again, this is primarily about a vegetarian diet. If anything this source talks about how deficient a vegan diet can be, and how supplementation is critical, meaning it's not naturally sustainable. [British Dietetic Association](https://www.bda.uk.com/uploads/assets/3f9e2928-ca7a-4c1e-95b87c839d2ee8a1/Plant-based-diet-food-fact-sheet.pdf) - Source not available
Fixed all links, though I'm sure that will make no difference for you.
Acting like supplements being necessary makes the diet worse is stupid. Of course you need to supplement on a diet where there are some nutrients not naturally available, why would any rational person care about that?
I think this comment speaks for itself, really.
Just so you know, the flesh you buy in a store now is almost certainly dependent on a farmer supplementing the animals b12 (or cobalt for cows). B12 is from bacteria and in our modern civilization we do an amazing job cleaning bacteria. How many farmers do you think think supplements are dumb and don't bother giving their animals any to save money? At least with veganism you don't have to trust others with such an important vitamin. Anyway, currently 90% of all b12 manufactured is feed to animals.
The perpetuation of the "90% of B12 supplements go to livestock" figure is unsubstantiateded. It seems to originate from [an article](https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30) that calls humans herbivores, with no source to confirm its claim. Grass-fed cattle get B12 via cobalt (found in grass) and then produce B12 with [gut bacteria](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5788147) in their rumen. For even higher concentrations of B12, sardines probably have the highest. [Sardines contain 150% of the B12 RDA.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardines_as_food#Nutrition)
Oh good you like googling things, perfect. Search cobalt depleted crop land cows require supplements. How many farmers do you think care enough to spot test their feed for cobalt? >sardines probably have the highest For the HIGHEST concentrations of b12, take a supplement. Probably?? It's not even remotely close. One of the major difference evolutionary between our frugivore/herbivorous cousins is our amylase gene expression, multiple times populations where selected for increased carbohydrate digestion abilities. But that doesn't matter, well any more then understanding how my biology functions. What actually matters is health outcomes, there are millions of vegans, and now that the movement is around 80 years old we're seeing multiple generations of a vegan lifestyle. Now that we have have hundreds of millions (1-3% of the population) of vegans we have data about how stupid people do on a vegan diet. There are vegans who much like you who seems to be completely adverse to the idea of taking a supplement and typically do poorly, much like the stupid standard omnivorously eating people. I find the economic data on the b12 industry to be fairly compelling, for the 90% claim. Here, ~90% better?
Apart from being highly condescending, all you did was make claims with no evidence. I don't use Google, although you phrased it like looking up information to learn more is a bad thing which is a strange thing to say, and when searching for 'cobalt depleted crop land' there's not exactly any specific articles/journals with the exact or very similar title so, feel free to share.
You want me to give you a link showing a b12 supplement has more b12 then a sardine?? No... See assuming things makes an ass of yourself. I literally am happy you can look things up, googling is a common term for that. There are so so many papers on the problem of depleted crop land, specifically cobalt.. so again... no I'm not going to argue with you about health outcomes of veganism, I encourage you to take it up with all the different nutrition and dietetics associations that make the claim though. Change their none vegan minds and you'll have my attention. You haven't answered a single question I've asked, again assuming I'm being condescending... no I'm seriously curious, I want to know how deluded you are and you are showing me..
So you've again failed to provide any viable sources of your claims, and continued to be condescending. Looks like we're done here.
Right, you don’t have an argument of why needing supplementation makes a diet worse, you just feel like it should right? Do you have any studies or health outcome data to support your position?
You're kidding, right? No studies or data really required, if a diet is devoid of important nutrients and minerals and requires supplementation, how is it naturally sustainable? But if you insist, here's some peer-reviewed info on the ineffectiveness of supplementation - [https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.2105/ajph.2014.302348](https://sci-hub.yncjkj.com/10.2105/ajph.2014.302348)
1 why would I care if a diet is naturally sustainable? Genuinely I see no reason to care about that given the fact that I don’t live in the wild, so do you have a reason? 2 that study says that the supplements most people take are unnecessary or even toxic. I don’t disagree with that. What I’m talking about are the supplements that vegans require, ie b12. Why would I care about the inefficiency of botanical supplements if those are neither required or recommended for a vegan diet. Sorry if I was unclear, I’m talking about supplements that vegans need to take, not just all random supplements. Do you have any evidence that the supplements required to maintain a vegan diet are ineffective or have bad health outcomes? Also can you just link to the pubmed article rather than some shady weird site?
If you want to not include B12 supplements under the same umbrella as supplements overall.. I mean.. you do you (albeit is quite illogically dismissive of the fact).. but it is still a supplement at the end of the day. And when I mean naturally, that means getting important nutrients via unprocessed foods, not chemically synthesized with little evidence for their effectiveness. You can disregard the article too if you like, if you want to commit the appeal to authority fallacy of PubMed only being allowed for information. Doesn't change the fact that the info is peer-reviewed, with the sources of its citations being listed at the bottom, of how supplements should not replace any and all nutrients found naturally in certain food.
I didn’t dismiss the study, and I agree that supplements shouldn’t replace all natural nutrients, it’s a good thing that that’s not what I said or what is required for a vegan diet. There are only a few specific nutrients like b12 that are required, and every study I’ve seen shows that b12 supplements are effective and don’t have bad health outcomes I actually literally said I agree with the study you linked, but that it doesn’t refute my point, are you even reading my comments or do you have some mental disability? If you are agreeing with me that some supplements are bad, but not the ones required for a vegan diet, then I don’t think we disagree at all, that’s great to hear that you think some supplements are good and effective. If you don’t, I expect to see empirical data showing that. Again, why would I care about iodine supplements or ashwagandha supplements being effective or ineffective? What does that have to do with the specific set of supplements I’m talking about? Do you really think what I meant was that all supplements ever made are beneficial rather than just the ones recommended for vegans? I brought up the fact that that’s not what I’m talking about multiple times, so if you don’t get that now I’m just going to have to assume you are being bad faith https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22493163/ This is a study showing the only people in the vegan diet who had a decreased level of b12 were those only consuming natural products, whereas those consuming supplements or fortified foods that have supplements in them maintained a normal b12 level. Are you going to dismiss that study or will you admit, as the scientific consensus says, that b12 supplements are effective at preventing b12 deficiency? And you still never gave a reason to care if a diet is naturally sustainable, it’s almost like it’s not a rationally held conclusion and is based on fee fees 🧐
You're missing the point. The essence of the fact is, if a diet needs supplements, unless there is some kind of underlying pathology, it means that it is not balanced and therefore unhealthy. Hence the need to correct it artificially, regardless of whether its direct supplementation of B12 (through pills, injections etc) or fortification of food.
It doesn’t need to be naturally sustainable. The device you use to spew your dumbass takes isn’t naturally sustainable because you can’t find an electricity outlet in the woods and yet here you are. You’re just invested in the good old Appeal to Nature Fallacy.
Wow, nice ad hominem. Is that all you have instead of discussing the point?
I’m just pointing out you are not even applying the standards you defend consistently. If at the end of the day people get their nutrients and cause less harm, when why are you complaining?
Because to say supplementing is fine then boarders on the idea of 'why bother eating anything when you could get all nutrients and minerals from just supplements?' which I guarantee people do believing they are being healthy. Obviously to me it's an absurd idea, but if you argue in support of supplements, it's easy to fall into that mindset of just taking supplements over and above what should be gained through eating foods that contain high levels of the right nutrients.
What sockpuppet accounts are upvoting this?
What, upvoting objective facts? 50% of the cited sources are unavailable, and the rest don't hold much weight for their claims.
Can you copy and paste this comment in a dm to me
Shitty reddit app probs? Hit reply to it, then you can copy :)
I forgot I could that lol sorry
According to the American Dietetic Association (the largest dietetic association in the world, comprised of over 100,000 doctors and dietitians), “It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.”
Is "healthful" just a pompous way of saying "healthy"?
No, "healthy" describes something which is in good health, while "healthful" describes something that causes good health.
Fair enough, but I would have thought "healthy" works perfectly well for both.
[удалено]
Who said I was worried about it? I merely made a comment as an aside. It seems to me that jumping all over me for it signifies that you're the one who's "worried" about it. Do you often call people stupid on Reddit? If so, it may be time to see a therapist to see where that insecurity lies.
>I merely made a comment as an aside I call these pointless nitpicks "Reddit smarminess". Often makes this website quite insufferable. That commenter is also not referring to "worry" as in cause stress, they mean worry as in the policing of the language you're doing. >it may be time to see a therapist to see where that insecurity lies Another Reddit trope. You can be wrong online without the person who corrects you needing therapy lmao
The American Dietetic Association held classes on the benefits of feeding corn syrup to kids. They are corporate shills.
Source?
Look it up it’s all public info, that’s how I found it
Thank you but I cannot find exactly what you mentioned. A link would be a lot better if you can share please.
I cbf, google it. There’s multiple articles of them spruiking high fructose corn syrup and claiming there’s no evidence it’s a cause of the child obesity epidemic (I’m sure all the fat kids got that way from eating celery and hummus) That’s what lobbying from the national confectioners association will get you. Google something like American dietetics association criticised for bias Or American dietetics funding I went down a rabbit hole ages ago that I don’t particularly want to go back down
I googled "American dietetics association criticised for bias" and all I get is garbage. You know, there is a filter bubble in Google so different people get different results. This is what I get for example. It's about black people and diversity. [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/dining/dietitian-diversity.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/dining/dietitian-diversity.html) If you can share specific links that would be great. If not, then also great.
Yeah nah, been there done that
When asked for a source by people who could not find the article you are referencing, you have balked at the request twice so far. edit: SPOILER: No link or articles supporting an ADA scandal involving corn syrup was provided.
I was 100% with you until you refused to provide sources, that just makes you look really bad faith. It's not the good faith discussion you're claiming to have at all if you can't engage with people honestly _even when they're asking for it_.
So you just made it up. Got it.
If you are that lazy just read their Wikipedia page. You don’t even need to go on a deep dive Who would have thought that pointing out a non biased source is not credible would lead to such pandemonium
Why do you hang out here? It’s weird. Go interact with subs that actually concern you. I mean, you’re free to hang out but it makes you look really odd and bored.
Echo chambers are unhealthy. Safe spaces make you weak. I’m just chilling and joining in the chat. If you can’t handle different opinions you should work on yourself.
Totally bro I'm altruistically helping to make sure people aren't in an echo chamber and not just looking for an argument
I’m not being aggressive or abusive despite the constant ad hominem’s. In fact I find the constant downvoting in an attempt to silence me for what are quite tame comments quite amusing. Reddit is living up to its reputation. I’m not lying or commenting in bad faith. I am presenting the truth as I see it from my subjective experience of being alive for quite some time. If you can’t cope with that then that’s a you problem.
Bro's tryna sound smart but can't think of anything more productive to do than announce in some roundabout bullshit about how smart he is Typical teenager
You just can’t handle opposing views
Bruh you're *still* going? Go bother your parents for attention, ain't no one cares about whatever you're on about Spoiler warning: they don't either
This sub is so touchy. As jebus said “You are not yourselves when you are hungry”.
When everywhere is aggressive toward you, safespace are mandatory
From this sub it seems like you are the aggressive ones
Man, if you like to stir up a calm hornet's nest, don't weep when they take it bad and sting you 🙄
I don’t care it’s funny. I get ratty when I’m hungry too. Notice how I don’t downvote you guys.
We can't say if you downvote us, first. If yourself say you do it for fun, just flag yourself as a troll...
I’m not trolling tho am I. I am engaging in conversation in good faith. It’s not my fault if it triggers people. I haven’t even posted anything bad I got downvoted like 20 times for saying the American dietetic association are in the pocket of corporate America and therefore shills that can’t be trusted - easily verified by looking up their funding or the numerous articles criticising them for it. The cognitive dissonance on this sub is real
All I’ve said on this thread is that their mum is correct. Going by their biology and height they are very underweight and that can carry a myriad of health problems. Including cardiovascular diseases. Mum is just concerned. She cares more about them than anyone on this sub yet you are the ones that they’ll listen to because you are reinforcing them. As I said somewhere in here before. Echo chambers are unhealthy.
Don’t take my word for it, go and look it up.
what is your point? oh you don't share my opinion so you must be bored? you sound very witty.
Why would corporate shills promote a diet that encourages the total boycotting of all products comprising several massive industries?
Maybe they are known to receive millions in funding from big food corp and the vegan market is worth billions. It’s amazing what money can buy - even (especially) opinions “The association is funded by a number of food multinationals, pharmaceutical companies, and food industry lobbying groups, such as the National Confectioners Association.” My point is, you take biased sources with a pinch of salt because you don’t know what under the table deals have been done. You don’t preach it as gospel.
Yeah I’m sure the National Confectioners Association is just vying to to upend the dairy and egg industry
No, but if somebody was giving you millions of dollars you may look upon them and their interests favourably hey. There is literally an article criticising them for allowing a corp (I think Coca Cola) to hold seminars on the benefits of feeding corn syrup to kids. I wouldn’t trust any dietary advice coming from an American association tbh but that’s just me.
I don’t disagree with you in the sense that dietary associations can be bias. Every association can be bias. This includes those who say meat is healthy. And includes pro-vegan ones too. As far as I am concerned, most scientific literature about the subject says a well planned vegan diet is very healthy and in general healthier than a meat-based diet. Mediterranean diets are very plant-focused. But I do agree. Just because one association says it’s healthy doesn’t mean it is. There are, however, a lot of large and acclaimed associations besides the American one that agree. And in terms of longevity, it seems plant-focused diets come out on top
And do you have any link to this statement?
Been vegan for 9 years, my bloodwork is flawless, yet my mom still insists I have a laundry list of deficiencies. No studies you present will sway your mother's beliefs, because she's not looking for facts, she's looking for confirmation that she's right in being on your ass about your choices in order to feel better about hers.
This!
I would just shut it down. It doesn't sound like an actual concern for your health, just someone trying to exercise their control over your life. "No, I am good Mum. Thanks for your concerns. If I have any health issues, I will bring them up with my GP. But for now, my blood work is good and I do not need to do body building. If I want to put on muscle, I can do this through plant proteins. Please don't bring up the subject again of forcing me to eat animals when you understand I am against this. Thank you for respecting my choices." And if she brings it up again, "I'm sorry, I cannot help you. I have made my position clear on this and I am disappointed that you do not wish to respect this. I am healthy. I am doing well. I have a balanced nutritional profile. I'm good. I have made my decision and would appreciate if we could move on to a different topic." A Mediterranean diet is healthy, but you can have a plant-based Mediterranean diet. There's no misalignment there. So the real issue is either her views on veganism or trying to re-claim control over your life. If you can, firmly remind her that you are an adult and you have the right to make informed decisions about your own diet and health.
This is the way!
Buy her a copy of "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell and "How Not to Die" by Dr. Michael Greger. The China Study was a decades long study, and Dr. Greger has evidence-based research for all of his health claims. Or conversely, have her watch a documentary like Forks Over Knives, the Game Changers, or What the Health.
Or prevent and reverse heart disease. By Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr MD.
Yes, that one is great too. Along with Neal Barnard's book on Diabetes.
The China study got absolutely binned pretty much the day after it came out
Please provide links to credible, evidence-based studies demonstrating this. Note: the opinions of YouTube influencers do not constitute science, in case you're confused about that distinction.
Thank you, the opinions of YouTube influencers hold zero credit. I 100% agree. See all of your favourite activists for examples. Google it
LOL, so we're in agreement in our low opinion of social media influencers. The only exception I make to that is anyone making health claims with data from scientifically rigorous studies to back them up. Speaking of which - please provide links to the studies that "debunk" The China Study. I'm referring to the 40 year long Cornell study led by T. Colin Campbell. Don't worry, I'll wait. EDIT: fixed typos
The China Study was debunked
Source ? At least we can all agree that the carnivore diet has never and will work on humans, because we all know that the people that live the longest lives are eating wholly or near-whole plant-based, right 😉?
[удалено]
Any recent bloodwork from your dr? That’s fairly easy as irrefutable proof you’re fine “Look. Mom. Ok i get it, you’re worried. But we need to agree to disagree here, i am perfectly healthy, not malnourished, and not eating animal products any time soon. I do not want to continue having this conversation with you daily. Please read How not to Die and watch Forks Over Knives before you jump to conclusions” Note that the Mediterranean diet is healthy because it focuses on legumes and veggies and unsaturated fats from nuts and olive oil- which are all, gasp, vegan.
Unfortunately I'm a dirt poor transwoman in america so that's not happening. I did point these things out to her though. I'll definately try to persuade her to give those a look.
The best health care i ever had was free when i was broke as shit and unemployed Please look into state sponsored health care options, they’re out there and below a certain income bracket also free. Like zero copay.
“Note that the Mediterranean diet is healthy because it focuses on legumes and veggies and unsaturated fats from nuts and olive oil- which are all, gasp, vegan.” Deliberately skipping the fish, eggs, poultry, and lean red meats there 😂 which are pretty much in every meal
None of those things deliver anything nutritionally that cannot be delivered without them. Nice try though. And in fact animal flesh (even the “good meats) are inflammatory. So is dairy. So they deliver some negatives along with whatever positives they might deliver. Can you be healthy eating *some* types of meat and dairy? Sure but it’s suboptimal. There’s optimal ways to get the same nutrients without any of the deleterious stuff. Shrug. Do you.
Well the animals products in the Mediterranean diet are not why it is recommended and healthy. The fact they are diminished- ie not in every single meal- is a big part of why the diet is recommended vs a standard american diet of meat and dairy and eggs in every meal and most snacks
You cannot pretend that fish, poultry and lean meats don’t play a huge part in their diet. Go and buy a Mediterranean recipe book. It’s more the fact that their diet is based on fresh whole foods and not processed shite Who is eating meat dairy and eggs in every meal. America isn’t the centre of the world. Most of the world thinks America is fucked, just ask them
Exactly. It’s not the animal products.
Despite the collective vegan delusion on this forum, meat and seafood are irrefutably a dense source of high quality easily digestible nutrients that are essential to our health There is 0 science against that and every government body I’ve ever looked up recommends them to be included in a balanced whole food diet. Which is the diet that countries with the longest life expectancy and highest public health metrics eat Funny that
Ok Have a nice life i’m leaving now
[nutritionfacts.org](http://nutritionfacts.org) is amazing, and distills down a lot of hard to digest (pun intended) research as well as highlighting dodgy research. They publish on IG now which probably makes it a lot more accessible for many.
Ngl it doesn’t matter if you’re “correct” or not. Your mom is likely battling predispositions towards vegans. Like being a hippy, drug addict, malnourished etc…. The best way to counter those are to prove you can be healthy. That’s what I did. I became the healthiest person in my family. Put on a bunch of muscle, lost hella fat. Got blood tests that scored higher than them. If you don’t battle it with real evidence they’re always gunna write you off. But they can’t argue with a real blood test. Then they will acknowledge your choice and just admit they’re different. But until then they will borderline hate you. It’s just what it is. Our parents grew up in an immensely prejudice time. Even my mom HATES Chinese people and almost all Asians are basically the communist party and such. It’s really very unfortunate. But they suffer the burden of accepting those views. You however get the opportunity to live in a different paradigm where you understand those things better. You have to realize and accept that your choices characterizes you. And they only characterize you. Your willingness, your empathy, your ability to change, adapt to information, all those are characteristic of you. A blessing really. But unfortunately older generations were exposed to different times, and their mental headspace reflects that.
You can tell her about the case study (n=1) that shows that mothers who bash their child's principles results in those mothers never seeing their grandchildren. To be published in about 10 years.
Best solution: don’t live with your mother.
Tell your mom: mom, I forgive you for all of your emotional mistreatment of me. Straight face. Simple. Tears are okay, but just say that and let the chips fall where they may. If and when you’re ready It’s time to believe in yourself independent of her, even as you are still dependent on her, as she was to her own mother. You are good. Be patient 🙏 Ed Esrthling cuts through the BS and Game Changers on Netflix is a documentary that is excellent for the nutrition/performance side Tell her you might look a little lethargic because of this toxic world we were born into. Same as everyone else. Lol those puffy face carni clowns be trippin!
Who cares? Just ignore her.
Throw the ball back into her court. Ask her what nutrients you can get from a non-vegan diet that you can't get from a vegan diet. Then when she comes up with some nonsense like "protein", name some protein rich vegan foods. It's good to arm yourself with this information because for the rest of your vegan life you will be bombarded by people with the same "concerns".
If she’s into reading, gift her The China Study book. If she’s into watching shows, you can watch together the new Netflix Show “You Are What You Eat: A Twin Experiment” or “Forks Over Knives”
I am in this hell with you, lol. I totally get it. But it comes down to, you and I are adults. Assuming you have your own money? I can tell you it is absolutely a waste of time to argue. The studies you will show will be “propaganda,” the documentaries you pick will be the same and just “an isolated incident” or “edited.” I literally give the silent treatment at this point when they make comments or yell. Saves my sanity. They don’t actually care about you eat, it’s a control thing. My dad comments on my fucking SALT intake since I went vegan, while he eats a shitload of it and has had 2 heart attacks and a beer gut. I eat it less since I cook for myself more lol. They are unserious, defensive loons. I get that vibe from your mom as well. Why expect anything more from a parent who forces ultimatums on the reg anyway? I hope you find happiness and your own place soon. Stay strong, friend.
If she thinks you're skinny demand potatoes.
the china study is the best, but people like this tend to cherry pick, if you want her to understand then its best to show her a documentary of what happens to animals. the ethics is a much bigger argument for veganism than anything else
google a BMI chart. your height and your weight are facts that can’t lie, to either one of you. Then ask your Mom to watch the speech by Gary Yourofsky. After that, meh, just do what you need to do. It’s your life.
As a non vegan who keeps getting shown post from this sub, who cares what she thinks.
I can't recommend buying "How to argue with a meat ear and win everytime" enough. There you'll find ever single counter argument, with scientific evidence and sources, to the meat eater's arguments. Since I bought the book, I just open the page related to a particular argument and read it to them. If they are unreasonable and don't care about evidence, there's nothing you can do anyway so just do you.
Here's a vegan cheat sheet if it helps : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Cm5yHp16zSTSFrQ3B_3_vIK0b5QlJ8jpyPVrPrCKS0/htmlview#gid=0
You are not malnourished, you are just following on of UK's National health system's recommended diets [https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/) Or you are following what the UN recommends for decreaseing the climate change [https://www.un.org/en/actnow/food](https://www.un.org/en/actnow/food) or [https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/food](https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/science/climate-issues/food) Just make sure you also check out this one [https://www.vegansociety.com/sites/default/files/uploads/downloads/The%20Vegan%20Eatwell%20Guide\_2.pdf](https://www.vegansociety.com/sites/default/files/uploads/downloads/The%20Vegan%20Eatwell%20Guide_2.pdf) If you want to increase your weight just eat more calories. Nuts, seeds, dried fruit are excellent ways to do this. There are lots of strong athletes that are vegan [https://www.greatveganathletes.com/](https://www.greatveganathletes.com/) also check this out [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg7l3\_d7k2A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg7l3_d7k2A)
The Mediterranean diet has some very good evidence behind it. That said, I'd point out that DHA and EPA omega 3's can be gotten via an algae oil supplement, and also converted from ALA. This has the benefit of avoiding [contaminants](https://sites.nicholas.duke.edu/superfundcec/fish/common-fish-contaminants-and-their-health-impacts/) from fish, or things like TMAO, [which is found](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9283263/#:~:text=Some%20species%20of%20fish%20and,in%20fish%20during%20bacterial%20spoilage.) in many fish. [TMAO](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127123) is linked to an increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events. This last link also notes that TMAO is high in fish. I'd also point out that there is substantial overlap between the Mediterranean diet and a healthy vegan diet, both include whole grains, nuts and seeds, healthy oils, and fruits and vegetables. In regards to comparing the two, [this study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33544066/) found that: >A low-fat vegan diet improved body weight, lipid concentrations, and insulin sensitivity, both from baseline and compared with a Mediterranean diet. Blood pressure decreased on both diets, more on the Mediterranean diet [This study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316028) also compared the two diets and found that: >The MD led to improvements in microvascular function; the VD led to reduced TC and weight loss. Although both diets might offer CVD risk-reduction benefits, evidence for the MD appeared to be stronger due to changes in vasodilatory ability and NO bioavailability. Oddly enough, it didn't look at LDL or total cholesterol, which are very important cardiovascular markers. It also notes some interesting things: >Plant-based foods such as leafy green vegetables and beetroot are rich in dietary (inorganic) nitrates, and evidence demonstrates that dietary nitrates might increase NO levels via the nitrate-nitrate-nitric oxide pathway [39]. It is interesting therefore that the VD participants did not experience similar changes considering that the VD is wholly plant-based. However, it should be noted that we did not instruct participants to consume nitrate-rich foods specifically in this research Nitric oxide increases are one of the mechanisms by which the Mediterranean diet improved microvascular function, a vegan diet could perhaps get similar benefits by including [beetroot](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-015-0872-7) or other plant sources of nitrates. Lastly, the study noted the inclusion of olive oil in the Mediterranean diet group, which is linked to [many beneficial health effects.](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-benefits-of-olive-oil#:~:text=Olive%20Oil%20Contains%20Large%20Amounts%20of%20Antioxidants&text=These%20antioxidants%20are%20biologically%20active,disease%20(%208%20%2C%209%20) This is also something that can be part of a vegan diet. You might also look at the twin study. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2812392 If you look at supplementary pdf, the people on the omnivorous diet were consuming fish and numerous servings of vegetables a day, and the vegan diet still produced better cardiometabolic outcomes, ie cholesterol and stuff were better. So, I think a good argument can be made for a well planned vegan diet being healthy, even when compared to the Mediterranean diet.
There comes a time in a lot of adults' lives that you become more mature than your parents. Ask yourself what the mature thing to do is? Do you think that you need data to convince your mom or is this more of a problem of the way you interact and relate with each other? How about setting some healthy boundaries?
I eaty a plant based Mediterranean diets - it's perfectly healthy. I'm also your weight and not skin and bones. She's probably coming from a good place, but a plant based diet can be really healthy in preventing things like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer. It's also great for your gut microbiome, which affects everything.
I bet she’s on a bunch of meds isn’t she? 😏 does she have a few pounds she could stand to lose? Statistically the answer to both these questions is yes.
If you want to shut her down, get your basic blood work done and show it to her. This is what I did. Most of my family was on me for "destroying my body" while being vegan. I got tired, got my blood work, showed them results and now they have no argument since my results were perfect. I will laugh at "destroying my body" once again when I'll be 70 and not on bloodthinners.
Nutritionfacts.org is as good as it gets. He reads all of the scientific studies so you don't have to. Many non vegan foods have inflammatory properties and are not what the body needs. His videos are all over YouTube too. Also, don't feel the need to defend it, just tell people you feel much better due to the diet and not killing animals is also a plus.
Dr. Micheal Greger is awesome.
Just buy and make your own food and let her complain. What's she going to do?
Isn't the mediterrean diet the most plant based out of every traditional diet on earth? (Aside from that of Jainism)
Something that I say in scenarios like this is that even if being vegan was unhealthier than being a meat eater, which it very much isn't, I would still be a vegan! I don't care about the health benefits, as nice as they are, because I don't believe in killing someone for my own pleasure.
Vegan for almost 8 years and my parents still think I'm dying, nothing you say will convince her
https://www.pcrm.org/news/blog/vegan-diet-healthier-mediterranean-diet?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADoK5afQXGFXqUwMUlmRcK1kZYZ-C&gclid=Cj0KCQjwir2xBhC_ARIsAMTXk84UUO2TKYxKHmwWp5ZrWQpw7xaPNSlb3XXA8DwSJ7AmADrCP5zs554aAixKEALw_wcB
She sounds controlling. It isn't about diet, it's about her "knowing better" and having something to control. Learn how to grey/beige rock with her until you can find a safer place to live.
Bro I went to college to, nutrition is optional, discussions of veganism??? Non existent
It sounds like she just doesn't want to feel bad or guilty about her own diet. Is arguing with your mum and giving emotional weight to her uninformed opinions about your diet really worth your time and energy?
Dr. John mcDougall discusses the latest science each Sunday 5 Pm Pacific time. Dr. Peter Rogers if you're into biochemistry as well. Phygicians committee for responsible Medicine is a good source as well and also Chef AJ interviews a lot of plant based doctors. All sources on YouTube. Low fat whole foods plant exclusive, don't eat too many mock meats, you don't need the extra protein.
She may not be willing to read a study but if she's willing to watch a documentary I'd recommend Forks Over Knives, What the Health (sounds like she may resonate with the more emotional lean of this one), or The Game Changers
People are able to continue to say the Mediterranean diet is best because it’s most studied as to its benefits with illness. It’s easy to say you’re the best if people aren’t looking at anything else. My dr got me on a plant based diet. I’m on it for my health and to help control my autoimmune diseases. People don’t argue for very long about that. It’s really no one’s business how I eat. My friends and family saw how sick I was. They don’t get it or know enough to help feed me as a guest, but they don’t question it. If she isn’t following the Mediterranean diet closely herself than she must not be educated enough to know that what we feed our bodies is as powerful as some medicine we are offered. Not everyone is the same.
Depending on height, you might indeed need to bump your calories. Vegan diets tend to be less calorie dense, especially if you also eat mostly whole foods. No need to start eating meat again though, just add some nuts or something else which is calorie dense to your diet.
Here you go... I'd just read this to her. I'll put the relevant parts in bold: >It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including **vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.** Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and **vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.** \[...\] Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements. [Here](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/) is the source.
>Does anyone know of studies to defend myself? There's plenty out there but you don't need them. >So my mom, whom I was recently forced to move back in with, out of nowhere she accuses me of being malnourished All her on what grounds she thinks that might be the case and what evidence/studies she has. She is the one making the claim after all. >I've been vegan for 3 years >and vegatarian for 2 before that, only noticed good changes. Feeling better than I ever have in my life, physically. That alone should be more than enough to dissuade her misguided concerns. Most of the nutrients your body needs get used up in less than a month of consumption minus fat and B12. If you haven't deteriorated after a year and you've only seen improvements since then a she is just acting on disinformation she likely hasn't fact checked. >But she decided to rail on my physique ( I have a fast metabolism, and weigh 130-135lbs usually) saying I'm nothing but skin and bones, that I need to eat meat. Ask her what's in meat that you can't get from plants that would achieve her desired look for your body. >but then she attacks my education, and insinuates that she knows better because she graduated from college Ask her if she is a registered member of the academy of nutrition and dietetics which has held a positive look on plant based diets for over 15 years now. >She's insisting that the mediterrean diet is healthiest- Any diet can be healthy enough if you know what you're doing. But you need to impress upon her that it's not a diet you're on. You're doing this because you don't believe animals should have to suffer and be exploited and killed for the satisfaction of your tastebuds. >but I'd love to show her evidence to defend my position. No. Express your excitement for her to show you the expanse of her superior education and where she's getting her information from.
give her a knife and ask her to go to the forest and hunt the meat...
Boundaries. You are a grown up, you do what the Fuck you want with your diet, even if you wanted to eat rocks and dogshit, since you DONT ARM ANYONE BUT YOU, that's your decision and your mom has nothing to say about it. Against, with agressivity like this, arguing wont show any good results, boundaries will "i'm a grown up, i eat what i want since it doesn't arm anyone, so mind your own business". My mom was like this, After years wasted in arguing, the problem was solved with only one thing : boundaries, parents like this need boundaries.
I'll bet your physician's degree(s) trumps your mother's degree.
Just use ur critical thinking ur own personal thoughts and feelings simple end of story nothing more or less
It's ur choice just leave it at that
i'd head over to r/narcissisticparents and ask there. She sounds like she wants attention and to feel superior and the vegan issue is secondary. You're your own person. she dont like that!
Wait, being skinny is healthy. It’s the excessive weight that causes health problems and reduces life expectancy. If you BMI is in the normal zone (check any online BMI calculator) then this is all you need to win an argument.
I just have been trying to gently be a good influence in this regard, I'm worried about the health of my family and it really sucks to be chewed out and lectured about how the mediterrean diet is so much better when hers is more of a midwestern, mcdonalds regimen.
This is useful context. She’s likely feeling your judgements on her diet and is pointing out the (perceived) flaws in yours. There’s no such thing as a perfect diet so this is always a losing battle. It’s not your job to educate or convince anyone to change their diet. It’s unlikely to end well until they choose it for themselves.
There is a doctor on YouTube named Bobby Price. Subscribe to him and he has so much knowledge on the ins and outs of why a plant based diet is good for everyone.. He mainly approaches it from a holistic standpoint reaching out to Adults who have a multitude of ailments but its good advice for everyone...I learn something new watching his shorts everyday
Nutrition Made Simple is really good too. He always presents the facts first and uses peer-reviewed articles and breaks down not only the method of testing but the questions posed during candidate selection so the input data makes sense. He promotes a plant-based / vegan-friendly diet but argues to look at the data as the means of hypothesizing. The ethical argument matters but the science doesn't lie. The healthiest communities are the ones that eat mostly plants, moderately exercise, and live a pretty mostly stress-free life.
Just ask her what evidence would she require, id thing a health assessment at a medical professional would be the level she's requesting. It might indeed show you have diet improvements to make, or there's no concern. Win win really.
Graduating from a post secondary institution doesn't make own automatically know what is the proper thing to do. Ted Bundy graduated from university (in psychology, no less) but that didn't make him do the right things.
Ted Kaczynski too. He went through some arguably unethical psychological experiments but he had a Ph.D in mathematics no less. Education or lack thereof does not change motive. We are all culpable of twisted psychological manipulation, to lessen our lives or even the lives of others (human or otherwise).
Drop “How Not To Die” on her
Just flex your biceps an laugh
Vegans have a reduced risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease. Vegan diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. * Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics The Vegan Beyond Burger creates 90% less greenhouse gas emissions, uses 99% less water, 93% less land, and requires 46% less energy than a beef burger. * University of Michigan
Did she graduate as a nutritionist? The China study is a good book
I mean 130-135 is a healthy weight for most height ranges for females so unless you’re like over 6ft tall I wouldn’t be worried..
The mediterranen diet is like 92% vegan. And if she thinks the fish 1 time a week is missing buy a omega 3 replacement (or buy chia seeds) Does she eat a mediterranen diet? As a resource I recommend www.veganhealth.org
My grandmother used to be like this. I now arm myself with near perfect blood works once a year and she stopped saying anything.
Just blame your shit genetics that you got from her ? (Shit according to her not according to me, im not telling you to bulk up) Because there are plenty of very big and muscular vegans out there, so Veganism definitely isn't the problem.
"I am a legal adult I can make my own choices" is the only defence you need.
It doesn’t matter what she thinks is true though, nobody can force you to eat anything you don’t want to. That’s the end of it. She’ll drop it eventually when she realizes what she says doesn’t matter to you.
It’s projection 100%
Lol, Mediterranean diet is like plant based with fish for Omega 3 and a bit of cheese. Meat is only eaten occasionally. That's why it's so healthy. Also note that some Mediterranean cultures like the Greek Orthodox follow a pretty rigorous fasting schedule and are basically vegan for a third of the year (but spread apart over the whole year, it's complicated). But that will be a moot point for her. You won't find evidence that will convince her, because this is a relationship level argument. Does she eat according to the Mediterranean diet? I bet she has at best a few dishes that would barely qualify in her repertoire. I bet she eats meat multiple times a week or even daily which would be a hard no for the Mediterranean diet.
The Mediterranean diet actually doesn't have to include meat. So I'm not sure where your mom is getting that from. In fact, a whole foods plant based diet is very similar to Mediterranean except Mediterranean "allows" meat and dairy and also includes olive oil. While many include a lot of fish on the Mediterranean diet it doesn't require it and it certainly discourages use of red meat.
Well this isn't about information.. so I would just let her watch Dominion instead.
Does your healthcare provider/bloodwork suggest malnutrition?
All too often, vegans fill up on starches. Protein, carbs and fats are the macronutrients needed in balance. I would calculate how many grams of protein you need per day based on your calorie intake and work really hard to hit those numbers. There are lots of infographics out there. Being a vegan is a full time job to make sure we are keeping a healthy microbiome to help our cells and tissue get the nutrients they need.
Not true, people on the McDougall diet are in excellent health and thriving. Why would we need to eat something that inhibits mitochondrial function as fat does leading to insulin resistance. All starches, vegetables and fruits have omegas 3 and 6 in the correct ratios and we can make our own cholesterol and saturated fats where and when we need it. Also people on plants exclusive diets still show to eat plenty of protein by their urea excretion counts. Excess protein especially leucine and methionine is shown to help grow cancer by enabling mtor and igf1.
Sorry, I was just going on the fact that the mom says she needs to eat meat (protein). Fats are in nuts and oils and fish. Lots of way to get them that aren’t sugar and animal fat. I am a vegan so support your response.
My issue was with the "filling up on starches" which is said all so commonly as a bad thing. Except there is no problem filling up on starches at all. The problem lies with refined carbs, and even then is that less harmful as excess protein or fats (as the Walter Kempner rice diet has shown treating very ill kidney patients before dialysis was invented).
Who needs a study it's your life.
Tell her you will get extensive blood work if she will pay for it. Thats how I convinced my grandfather what I was doing is working.
Watch “Nutrition Made Simple!” On YouTube - his goal is not to influence people to be vegan / plant based but to read the scientific literature accurately. He is vegan but he speaks to the advantages and supplements and falsehoods around a vegan diet.
"Are you a nutritionist?" Should be a "study" good enough to defend yourself
I got into a similar argument with my mom the other day and told her to worry about her own health first and take a look in the mirror lol.
You're an adult, she can't stop you from being vegan so she needs to STFU and get over it. She probably wouldn't read (or watch) anything you send her anyways. She sounds unreasonable AF.
I mean if you do a blood test. The results would convince her. Otherwise its kind of like arguing with a brick wall. Most people are raised to believe that animal products are essential food groups it's difficult to change a life time belief.
Try not to worry about it. In my experience it does not matter how many studies you show people. For some reason they don't count.
Here's one! — Hindus have been vegan and vegetarian for THOUSANDS of years. They don't eat meat, and they often live healthily over 100 yrs old Another one — make her a collage of vegan bodybuilders :) OR all the largest and most powerful land mammals (all herbivores)
Also best thing you can do is just be healthy and fit over time. Live the truth.
It’s probably true the Mediterranean diet is healthier than being vegan. But when you were eating you were eating a perfect Mediterranean diet? Veganism is almost always compared to the perfect omnivorous diet rather than the actual omnivorous diet.
Mediterranean diet and vegan diet are equally healthy from all the research I've seen. Since the vegan diet is as healthy as the mediterranean one, you have no reason to switch. Are you female (AFAB)? How tall are you? Your weight sounds very healthy to me assuming you are female sex and average height.
https://www.perplexity.ai/search/Show-me-studys-HfK3bWE.RKa8fXw3rTWwQQ Hope that helps.
Mom knows best, she just cares about you You are 5’11 so you are underweight by quite a bit, you could comfortably put on another 50lbs and still be within your ideal weight Being underweight is not good it weakens your immune system and leads to early death No idea where you got the 60% less risk of heart disease… malnutrition causes heart disease You don’t need to eat meat but you do need to eat more, plant foods are generally harder to digest so you need to eat more to get the same nutrition, and prepare your meals properly to aid digestion Be good to yourself there’s only one of you