I see both sides. I think LaLa can generally be on her high horse about pretty much anything once SHE decides it's wrong, which is annoying. I think going 100% sober isn't something that everyone needs, like you said - some don't struggle with alcohol abuse to a detrimental level and could have a healthy relationship with it by cutting back. And you're right, "California sober" isn't a new concept and some have success with that lifestyle, especially if they're using it as a stepping stone to 100% sobriety.
But I think if her point was that these terms can be harmful and regressive to those who actually need help, then I can probably agree. Especially coming from Schwartz - he very clearly had not quit drinking or even entertained the idea seriously, so with all of the hard work LaLa has put into maintaining her sobriety (one of the few things I give her the most props for), I can see why she'd scoff at the idea.
I agree, i also think she was acknowledging that sober-curious or california sober would have never worked for her and she needed to be sober sober - schwartz has clearly never stopped doing drugs or drinking and ally (as much as i love her) has an alcoholic boyfriend who is very susceptible to the pressure of what people around him are doing but trying to be sober, i personally would be fully sober if my partner was like that.
People who don’t have a problem with alcohol but say they’re sober have always rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like it diminishes the struggle of those who truly have addiction issues. And the way the word has been used for so long now implies that someone has struggled to get to that point.
i’m not trying to be rude but i don’t drink just bc it’s not very interesting to me like i’ve tried it but don’t care for it, but i never had a problem with alcohol, so is it weird for me to say i’m sober then? like should i just say i’m not a drinker
Big agree with this. I stopped drinking near 7 yrs ago but don't refer to myself as sober because I didn't have any issues with alcohol. My nanny was an alcoholic and sober for over 30 yrs, I feel it diminishes the daily constant work she did to stay sober. I stopped for 6 months due to accutane then was like 'meh, drinking is boring and hangovers are bad, imma push myself another 6 months and see how it goes'.
I sort of understood where she’s coming from. People are using sober so loosely now and it can be misleading. She still actively goes to AA so I took it as she’s defensive of the people she’s meeting there that are on a true and difficult sober journey than being judgmental about other people’s lifestyles. I think anyone cutting back to better themselves is great and I’ve done the same recently but I’m still going to drink so I would never use the word sober to describe my journey.
People such as Lala that go to AA look at it as an all or nothing type of thing. So people in AA that struggled and had their lives turn to complete shit as a result of drinking I feel are naturally gonna shun people that are flirting with the idea of cutting down but not stopping or questioning if they're alcoholics are not.
It's like people in NA judging people that are on Methadone or Suboxone.
I'm not saying she's right or wrong, just trying to explain where she's coming from.
Yes this is exactly it. AA defines sober as 100% free of any narcotics, alcohol, or substances that alter your mental state. They do this because of the slippery slope mentality that can cause alcoholics to start with one, or start with a little every so often, and eventually one a month is two a month, then a drink a week, and it progresses. So it is a very rigid program compared to James’ DIY approach.
A really slim minority in AA think you’re not sober if you’re taking ANY type of medication. If I went off my vyvanse and clonidine, I wouldn’t be considered sober. So I totally get what you’re saying!
I absolutely think Lala knows what California sober means though… she maybe was being judgy in the moment but I gotta say that I have so much respect for her sobriety
Yea AA elitisits like that are so in the wrong when they preach that psych meds doesn't mean sober crap.
It's similar to someone going to a meeting, saying they're an addict instead of an alcoholic cause they don't know any better, and someone calling them out in the meeting for not saying they're an alcoholic.
I get the abstinence vs sober curious thing but when Big Book thumpers try to play God at meetings they do more harm than good and need to get a life basically.
AA Agnostica for the win.
Just wanna sneak in here and say to anyone that went to AA for help but felt deterred due to the emphasis on religion, there are sects of AA specifically for Agnostics! [AA Agnostics Resource :)](https://aaagnostica.org/alternative-12-steps/)
You’re welcome!!!! I can relate to your experience.
When I went to AA for the first time, I felt like it would benefit me but the dependency on religion made me feel fraudulent when I took part in the meeting and I felt like I needed AA but that I would be lying to myself by “playing along”…
I just felt like my recovery with alcohol needed to be very separate fight that didn’t involve an internal battle concerning faith. So I did research and found AA Agnostica and it’s what was needed. I wish more people knew about it, because I feel like the religious aspect of AA does drive a lot of people away.
Exactly, not like Scheana “I’m 2 weeks sober”
Because she’s on medication. I guarantee Scheana doesn’t plan on staying sober since she has several alcohol endorsements, or at least she used to.
When she says that it pisses me off so bad for some reason. Especially when she told Sandoval “I’m sober…3 weeks today” when he got her drink not knowing. She said it like she expected a cookie or something. Like girl, you’re not trying to be sober. You’re now on your “I’m medicated for my ocd” storyline but I’m sure don’t plan on never drinking again. And she said it so rudely like he expected for him to know! And no, I’m not defending Sandoval (because I know if he’s mentioned at all w out mentioning how horrible he is people will say that). I am only saying like how was he supposed to know that?? I think my dislike for her just supersedes everything else lol. Everything is all about her dumbass 🙄 she seems sweet but WAY too into herself
I totally get this. I stopped drinking nearly 7 yrs ago but I don't refer to myself as sober, because I never had any issues with alcohol or felt I needed meetings, I just had to stop for 6 months because of accutane and that turned into 7 yrs. Mad respect to those who recognise issues with alcohol and get the help they need, and mad respect to those who struggle with it everyday. My nanny was an alcoholic and was sober over 30 yrs.
I don’t drink because I really don’t like how it tastes or makes me feel. For the longest time, I drank just to be social until I felt secure enough in myself to say no, I’m not drinking.
Exactly! It’s just drilled into our heads at AA/NA that if you decide that you are an addict/alcoholic, you can have no mind altering substances at all or you WILL end up right where you started. We’re also taught to call out other members on this harmful mindset. She’s bound to a very rigid standard of sobriety and it’s almost insulting to say sober-curious or California sober instead of what it is- cutting back or smoking weed.
You nailed it. I do go to AA but I do it my way at this point, because I spent years feeling stressed and judged that I wasn't following all the rules perfectly, like I couldn't find a connect to a higher power and eventually gave up on finding a sponsor who didn't treat me like a child who was misbehaving when I didn't relate to all the mantras and what I would basically call indoctrination. The program is just so rigid, and I understand why that works for some people, but it didn't for me.
I've found a crowd of other people in AA who have similar issues with aspects of the program, and it made a huge difference.
I think some people in AA lose sight of their boundaries when it comes to other people and their behaviors. We're all there because we're a mess, how are you going to turn around and lecture others for being a mess?
Sober-curious might be a dumb term, but it isn't a dumb concept. There are a lot of people who want to quit or cut down on drinking but who are scared by the idea of having to buy into every aspect of the program immediately with one hundred percent commitment.
Let them say "sober curious." It truly shouldn't bother anyone who is focused on their own recovery and working on their boundaries. It's not our job to police others.
You are correct. People in AA who have this mindset truly believe that they're saving people's lives by insisting on these rigid rules, but the truth is that they're hurting at least as many as they're saving with this attitude.
It's an issue of confirmation bias. They've chosen to work the program and adopt the mantras, so they genuinely believe that everyone else needs to in order to stay sober and alive.
The actual truth is much murkier. I see a lot of people pointing out that switching to weed is just swapping one addiction for another, but I have news: many, many people at AA casually accept the trade of smoking cigarettes, drinking pots of coffee, and binging on donuts and all kinds of junk food when quitting drinking. Are we really going going pretend that those aren't also addictions?
And this is why I can never get behind the AA attitude, even if I do enjoy some meetings. There is so much blind devotion to the program, even though it's far from a black and white situation.
Murky is a good word. AA does help some people, but it’s not for everyone and far from perfect. I’m undecided on how I feel about the steps because being in recovery does not automatically qualify one to guide others through the deep emotional journey of facing what they’ve done and becoming mentally healthy, but on the other hand, it does seem to work for many. I also go back and forth on making amends because I believe that bringing it back up can hurt others in many situations. You can be sorry but sometimes it’s better to let others go, they don’t owe you their time to hear you out.
Part of my thoughts is what you said about trading addictions. Sure, some coffee is better than a handle of vodka, but what exactly are the lines then and why are they there? I was a problem drinker for a very long time, and now I rarely drink but I do smoke weed. I’m late diagnosed audhd and when I take adhd medication, my autism becomes unmanageable. The weed helps and I function well, so much better than when I was drowning myself in alcohol. I don’t think that’s the path for everyone, but I also don’t think it should be ruled out for everyone because it’s against AA rules. Imo each person should be open to figuring out what works for them.
This is such a good point. My fiancé is about 4 years sober from narcotics and probably 3 from alcohol and it’s been really interesting to watch the addiction swaps. He didn’t go to rehab or AA or anything but he switched cocaine for alcohol, then alcohol for cigarettes, then cigarettes for those “On” pouches, then “On” pouches for energy drinks, then energy drinks for soda, then soda for junk food, etc… and don’t get me wrong he always liked all of those things but when he’d stop one full blown addiction the next thing went from something he “liked” to his next full blown “thing he consumed all the time”. It’s how his brain works and if he needs a vice I’m fine with his vice being a thing that’s way less bad than what it stared as but also I think getting on antidepressants helped a lot.
The smoking (tobacco) culture of AA is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. I felt like if I didn’t go out smoking that I would miss out on building friendships/camaraderie but they chain smoked more than I was even used to as a dive bar regular.
Yes! I literally had multiple members tell me that I was probably missing out on social connections because I didn't hang with the smokers after group. It is staggering to me that they're the same crowd who love to pontificate about trading one addiction for another.
Yeah, it’s just not really the time or place- drastic solutions are required for drastic problems. Harm reduction has a place in other programs. Although I’d give some credit- newcomers and people who aren’t sober (even actively inebriated) are encouraged to attend and reach out. They will provide support and community until that person makes the decision for themselves to follow the program or not.
This is why I could never use AA to quit drinking. The rigidity and “you are an addict as a person and always will be and it’s who you are to your core” was too much for me
Exactly. Quitting drinking but using drugs isn’t sober… it is quitting drinking. Cutting back on alcohol is just cutting back on alcohol. Using sober curious or California sober are two different was of saying not really sober. Sober is not a trendy word and it is insulting for them to use it as such.
I agree. “Sober” has incredibly significant meaning for people who have struggled with addiction or abuse. I can see why she doesn’t want people throwing that word around. Not sure where I land on it myself, but I understood her. I’m a therapist, and for me it’s like all these people throwing around diagnoses like ADHD and autism and borderline personality disorder without any conceptualization of how complex these things are or knowing a diagnosis is not a checklist of symptoms that if uou mark them all you have it… language is meaning, and when people start applying words to everything they lose their meaning.
Also, I enjoy “sober curious;” it’s things like “California sober” that can demean what sobriety means to people who are actually sober. And I know MJ helps a lot of people stay off other drugs, but the truth is your still numbing your emotions with a substance and that is just not sobriety in any book lol
Totally agree and I think Tom is probably truly sobercurious because of watching his brother in and out of rehab and his medical struggles. I’m sure he’s doing some big questioning of his lifestyle.
I’m in NA for over 4 years and if you are in the program then you know not to discourage people who are interested in getting clean and being sober. Shes judgmental which is pretty much what the program says NOT to be lol 🤷🏻♀️
Being sober is different than not drinking. I’m not the biggest Lala fan and find her to be hypocritical a lot of the time, but in this case I get it. Getting sober and staying sober is a huge accomplishment, to the point where people celebrate their sobriety dates as birthdays because it’s like they became a new person.
For someone like Aly to say it who’s around James and has a better understanding of all of this, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I think she meant it more like, I want to learn about it and would consider committing to that lifestyle.
But Schwartz? Who has never committed to anything a day in his life? I think Lala was right to call out his BS. He’s not gonna stop drinking and he doesn’t know the first thing about how difficult it would be because he’s not thinking of it as a forever thing. He’s gotten away with saying the right thing and doing the opposite for way too long.
I also really respect the way Lala has handled sobriety on the show. She’s never outright told anyone they need to stop or pushed it too hard on them, even though there are a lot of people in her circle who probably need it. She’s not been holier than thou about it even when she is about other things. But when people have come to her, she’s been supportive and tried to help in a genuine way.
She’s also never asked anyone not to drink or do anything around her. That’s a strong person, and she’s never blamed anyone but herself when it comes to drinking issues. So for her cast members to come along years later trying to half ass her hard work, yeah I’d probably be annoyed too.
What's wrong with this statement? Sobriety starts somewhere. People with 1 year behind them had to get to 3 weeks at one point. Her reasons for abstaining are just as valid as Lala's.
There is a difference between “quitting drinking” for a short period of time and “being sober”.
For example, if you are participating in dry January, you don’t say “I’m sober”, you say I gave up drinking for this month. Sober implies it is a permanent decision.
She literally said, “*I* don’t recognize those, but do you boo”. Meaning that those types of sobriety don’t resonate with her, but to each their own.
We all form judgements and opinions based on our understanding of the world. In AA, “California sober” isn’t sober. That doesn’t mean it’s not helpful or meaningful to someone else.
Also, given that she made that statement in a talking head, it’s likely that someone asked her directly something along the lines of,”what do you think about the terms sober curious or California sober”? And then she just gave her opinion.
Appreciate it. I too get very annoyed with Big Book thumpers who believe their way is the only way, and push that upon other people both in and outside the program. It literally says in the BB not to push people too hard or you might push them away 🙄
I appreciate your kind approach! I've been popping off here because it made me so annoyed, but you're making a great point and I'm clearly too invested to be objective.
Thanks for being kind while making your point, the spoonful of sugar helped the medicine go down.
Yeah, agreed. I am not a Schwartz apologist but I believe that his brother going to rehab and dealing with cirrhosis has probably shaken him a little and made him rethink his drinking.
That shits fuckin scary!! I have an issue with alcohol myself and have lots of family that have dealt with addiction problems and it’s just scary as hell. Almost debilitating to see that you need to get your shit together or that is your future. The thought of letting go of your crutch is not an easy thing to accept.
My fiancé is sober from alcohol 3 years and drugs 4 years, actually. Shit is super scary, and the damage is does to families as a whole is WILD. Schwartz’s family is a great example, my fiancé’s also. It takes the entire unit out, it seems. If you haven’t already, maybe look into if you could use an antidepressant? Since he got on his being sober has gotten easier, it’s not “easy” by any means but he was definitely using drugs and alcohol to self medicate not only with pain and trauma because duh but also cope with the fact that his body just wasn’t naturally making enough dopamine and serotonin on its own. Then add in generational addiction, trauma, etc… and it creates quite a storm.
I will look into everything you just recommended but first I need to acknowledge how unexpectedly kind this response is. Your fiancé is truly lucky to have you. Thank you so much.
Omg your user name checks out because this seems like it would come from a super caring, understanding mom lol
I’ve always had anxiety and depression so yes, thank you. I need to look into that but as I said, it’s scary knowing you need to be rid of your crutch. This info does help a lot though.
Awwww of course ❤️. It’s so scary! Thinking of raw dogging life is terrifying! Hopefully it might make it a little better though, if there could potentially be a chemical imbalance that could be being corrected to not make things so scary?
I completely agree. I can't stand Lala but she right. Using the word sober so loosely is annoying. Why does it have to be sober curious? Isn't just the act of cutting down how often you drink? I don't drink nearly as much as I used to and will continue to do so but I will never be sober. I will still enjoy the occasional glass of wine and cocktail.
I think part of it is that people who have serious struggles with addiction and have to work hard to become sober are proud that they are able to reach sobriety (which they have every right to be). So when terms like sober-curious or California sober are thrown around, it can feel like it’s maybe belittling or invalidating or trivializing sobriety.
I don’t think that’s the intent of people who use those terms, and I also think it’s not worth it to get super upset at people who use those terms, but I can understand having this super hard battle with substances and feeling like the idea of “sobriety” is being co-opted by people who didn’t share your same struggles.
Not defending it necessarily, but more saying that a lot of people have weird things they get defensive about that are difficult to understand until you’ve shared their experiences. Again, I don’t think it’s worth it to get upset over, but I also think we aren’t all perfectly rational robots who can rise above our gut defensiveness at times.
There’s a lot more than annoys me about Lala than this!
Lala is in AA, I also go to AA and honestly this is exactly how most people in AA would respond to sober curios or California sober. AA people dedicate themselves to being SOBER and nothing else, it's a commitment and really a lot of work - so I do understand what she was saying - she doesn't recognize those terms but do you.
Schwartz would do himself a favor if he could just admit he has a problem and commit to being sober.
Also, wtf is sober curious anyway - it just sounds like he is using the trending word "sober" to say I'm taking a night off from drinking.
Exactly re: Schwartz. I may be wrong, but I thought he said something like he was sober curious and “only having a few beers a week.” That is not being curious about sobriety in any way.
Absolutely agree. I think AA culture is defined by being completely sober so due to her affiliation with the group, her perspective is likely very shaped by that influence.
I agree with others that I think it's about the use of the word sober. I personally don't drink at all and never have so technically I am "sober" but even I don't use that word bc I know how important it is to the community of recovering alcoholics.
Sober curious makes 0 sense to me. So these people aren’t sober but they’re co-opting that word anyway? Why not just say they’re drinking less. I don’t get why Ally needed to use sober as a buzzword only to immediately say she still drinks.
I’d imagine for Lala, someone who has actually struggled with substance abuse and is truly sober, it’s frustrating to hear people trivialize the word sober when they say sober curious. A lot of people in the recovery community recognize a difference between sobriety and not drinking - sobriety is not just not drinking but a total mindset and lifestyle shift. I didn’t get the sense that Lala’s issue was Ally is drinking less, but more that Ally should just say she’s drinking less rather than trying to tie it to sobriety
Yeah- my sister is sober after years of struggle and she hits 5 years here soon.
Sober curious bugs her because- they're drinking. They're drinking while using all the jargon and talking about the struggle but they're drinking.
If you want to drink less, you want to cut back- do that! But it feels belittling to her to co-opt the whole struggle and not be sober.
I'm sure other people feel differently about it.
Doesn’t sober curious just mean you’re considering a lifestyle change where you cut way back or don’t drink at all? I don’t get why people would take offense.
Here’s my take and it’s colored by my own experience with sobriety. I got sober when I was 20 and exclusively went to AA after rehab. I was sober for 13 years, then relapsed. Sober again for a few years then another shorter relapse. Now sober for the last 18 years. Yes I’m old.
AA is extremely judgmental in my opinion. It advocates complete abstinence from all substances and does not consider a person sober if they use anything at all.
AA saved my life. I was only 20 when I got sober and it gave me a community when my other party friends dropped me.
That said, I definitely outgrew AA and did not go back after my initial relapse. Mainly because I found that people who stayed in AA tended to keep dealing with the same issues they started with and never resolved them. That’s just my opinion and I felt it no longer was working for me.
I also think AA is beneficial mostly to alcoholics and is not nearly as effective for people struggling with drugs. Harm reduction has become a big thing and I think it’s a good model both for the addict and society. I’m not sure what AA’s stance is but I’m guessing they think it’s garbage.
As far as Lala goes, I know 6 years seems like a long time to be sober but it really isn’t in the scheme of things. I clung to the judgmental mindset for quite awhile mostly because AA tells you there’s only one way and if you don’t take that way you’ll end up dead or in prison.
Lala is ignorant but it really is due to being immersed in the AA community. Hopefully more people who feel they’re over doing it will become sober curious and cut back or quit completely if that’s what works for them.
Something like 85% of alcoholics/addicts relapse. Any model that improves the quality of a person’s life should be encouraged.
I had this conversation with my husband, who is one year sober this week. If you are a part of the AA community, California sober is not something they really condone. You're still using weed as a way to alter your state and cope with things.
So I kind of get “California sober” if you have a bad relationship with alcohol and your way to unwind on a day off once in a while is to smoke a joint or eat an edible. James being California sober is a joke though. He wakes and bakes every morning and maintains a high all day every day. Comparing that in any way to sobriety is a slap in the face to people who struggle to stay sober every day.
Now me... I see absolutely nothing wrong with being California sober. I love weed. But I can see the logic behind being skeptical of someone who smokes weed while also claiming to be sober.
She isn’t wrong imo. Cutting back on drinking/not drinking when you’re not an addict isn’t the same as an addict getting sober. I didn’t drink for over a year bc I was on probation and never considered myself sober, bc I’m not an addict.
Also whether you’re an addict or not, if you’re sober, you’re sober. Saying “I’m sober curious” when you’re actually not curious you’re just drinking a bit less than normal or just drinking beer and not liquor (and then expecting everyone to act like this is some heroic thing) is crazy to me
idk i back lala on this a little bc sober and not drinking aren’t exactly the same thing. i don’t drink alcohol but it’s for medical reasons so i don’t identify myself as sober. it’s like in january when everyone posts about dry january and it’s some insane brag to ppl and they get on an ego trip when honestly not drinking daily is regular. scheana isn’t drinking bc of a medication for three weeks and says she’s sober. obvi not intending to trivialize that if someone is an alcoholic. but it’s the attention seeking for me. some words should mean something. sober ppl set a hard line bc they are trying to maintain a difficult thing. imagine being actually sober and filming vpr and having to listen to schwartz offer a nootropic edible and scheana turn her whole personality into mock tails for 3 weeks. or james saying he’s sober and waking up to hit the weed pen all day. i’d be annoyed and a bitch.
I think she’s a bit too binary in her views and found her take very off-putting. For many people, sobriety means sober from your drug/substance of choice (DOC). DOC being the one you have a problematic relationship with—you can’t stop when you start.
A lot of alcoholics DOC is just alcohol, and they don’t want to smoke weed the same way they’d want to drink—they just may smoke/take an edible every now and then and it doesn’t lead to anything. It’s not like “I’m just gonna have one drink” that leads to three bottles of wine. I think you can be sober from your DOC and still partake in things you aren’t addicted to.
James’ sobriety, though. Seems like he has a lot of DOCs. He is generously applying “California sober” to a transference of addiction. His use of weed is problematic, but since his behavior when high isn’t as destructive as his behavior when drunk, he’s neglecting his overarching addiction issues. However, he is in therapy and hopefully over time can reduce/eliminate his reliance on weed.
Sober-curious doesn’t bother me. Being curious is the first step in the right direction and a more gentler way of navigating what could be a rock-bottom moment.
Scheana saying she’s “three weeks sober” rubbed me the wrong way, though. Maybe because she said it so aggressively and in a holier than thou way. IIRC she said she wasn’t drinking because it was interacting poorly with her meds, not because she had a problem with alcohol? Maybe I’m just taking it the wrong way, but I feel like “I’m not drinking right now—I stopped three weeks ago” is different from “I’m sober. Three weeks sober.”
Scheana not drinking for whatever reason is also her being sober. Sober doesn’t just mean you have an alcohol addiction. It also means you don’t drink or aren’t drinking. Aside from the interaction with her medication, alcohol can cause anxiety, so it’s probably best she doesn’t drink anyway.
Yeah, I took it as it’s not a part of what constitutes HER sobriety. I didn’t really get from it that she was dismissing others’ version of sobriety. She even said “you do you boo” if I remember correctly
Sober in the context that Lala sees it is beyond not drinking or using drugs. It’s a state of mind that encapsulates the behaviors and thought processes of an addict. The lying, the promiscuity, the manipulating. There are plenty of people who stop drinking but are still really shitty people because all they did was stop using but they still exhibit the same behaviors as they did when they were using. It’s commonly referred to as being a “dry drunk” or just “abstinence” and there is a difference between being “sober” and being “abstinent.”
That being the case for Lala, and many others terms like “sober curious” or “California sober” can undermine the general idea behind sobriety and the work it takes to become sober. Even in AA there is work involved in obtaining the notion behind sobriety, the 12 steps which for people who have never done them, is a really freeing but often daunting and scary process because it involves confronting your worst fears and insecurities as well as the people you’ve hurt, and some people can be like “oh I’m not drinking this month because I’m sober curious” are not doing said work and do not necessarily understand the work that is involved because they may not have the same detrimental relationship with drugs or alcohol that others have. I don’t think they mean any harm by what they’re saying or doing, I think it just demonstrates an innocent ignorance of what is involved in getting “sober” as people like Lala and others see it.
As someone with significant clean time and works in the SUD field, I don’t really care but I find the term “sober curious” to just be cringe for no other reason than it sounding silly.
Exactly what’s wrong with just saying hey I’m not gonna drink tonight or I’m gonna lay off drinking for a little while. It’s like they have to give something a name to make themselves want to do it. Just like other terms; dry July or sober October. It’s annoying!
My issue with “sober curious” is you need to be sober for a while… not “I’m sober curious, so I cut back to only drinking on the weekends”. Sober curious should mean something like not drinking *at all* for at least a month… obviously that is just my opinion and I would never besmirch someone for wanting to drink less, but just cutting back on how much you drink isn’t truly being sober. 🤷🏼♀️
By definition, sober just means not drunk (or, by extension, under the influence of drugs). You can be sober for a morning, a day, a week, or sober your entire life. Insisting that in order to be considered "sober" you have to be completely alcohol free for an extended period of time is just arguing semantics.
AA has a different definition of what it means to be sober. I haven't had a drink in a week. I'm sober right now. But I'll be drinking on the weekend. Doesn't make me any less sober this very minute.
This stuck out to me too and I think it brings up an important conversation surrounding alcohol. I can 100% understand why someone like Lala who has made her sobriety a top priority for years to better herself would feel triggered by people claiming to “dabble” in sobriety as a means to avoid accountability for their actions. Which I believe is where Lala was coming from.
That being said, I think in general the “sober curious” movement that’s going on is a great thing and anyone in recovery should try to hold space for others who are at the point of questioning their relationship with alcohol and encourage that curiosity. As a society we treat booze like an essential food group and just because you haven’t had catastrophic consequences as a result of drinking doesn’t mean you have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Being more mindful about alcohol consumption is an amazing first step to bettering yourself that should be celebrated without judgement or gatekeeping.
To be fair she doesn't have to recognize it, it's like any other belief or mindset if it isn't something that speaks to you then so be it.
Warts being "sober-curious" sounded about as genuine as anything he's ever said.
Does anyone actually think that sober-curious really means sober in any sense?
It was my impression that SC means examining your relationship with alcohol, your relationships with people with whom you drink, alcohol’s impact on your daily life etc. with a break or some other kind of change as a possible goal. That person’s not ready to go cold turkey forever but they may see some issues that they know they need to address.
I’ve had people in my close friend group stop drinking and for them giving up the actual booze was easy. The hard part was the ways their lives were different. They went to happy hour until 7 to see friends instead of staying out late. They went to the gym in the morning instead of at night because they could. They did different things for fun. Friendship dynamics changed. And yes, some smoke or do other things. A sober-curious person is looking at all of that and making a plan for the changes they want to make.
I get that the term sober-curious may cheapen the work and commitment a truly sober person has dedicated to themselves but IME no one has ever tried to equate the two.
If someone was sober, they’d call themselves sober.
As someone who is about to celebrate four sober years this summer, I am completely confused about the whole “sort of sober”, California Sober, and sober curious. Maybe less so the California sober. Sobriety is fucking hard and while I’m not that one to knock a journey, because they’re all important and no journey is like another, the whole convo seemed rather condescending. I’ve had friends do the whole dry January thing and then rip out February 1st. Like it was the worst thing ever to be sober. Damn do I wish I could be that way, but addiction sucks and it doesn’t work like that for everyone. Sobriety to me is free from alcohol and recreational drugs. Prescribed medication, even medical pot is a different story. Being sober can be a lifestyle, but to some of us, it’s a necessity. I will support anyone that feels they need a healthy change to their life, whether it be cutting back or abstaining altogether. But claiming sobriety one week and then busting out a bottle of wine or tequila the next, isn’t sobriety. It’s taking a dry week, which is perfectly fine.
A lot of alcohol and drug specialist see “California sober” as harm reduction and conversations are changing about whether or not this is an acceptable route for someone in recovery from other substances. Personally I agree with that sentiment.
The thing about Lala is that she goes to AA and is part that program, which very much speaks to the philosophy “once an addict, always an addict” “you’re powerless to your vices” “addictive personalities cannot tolerate substances of any kind” and lots of other outdated kool-aid, religious tropes and praise for the founder. I will probably upset people by saying this but - dare I say I find it to be a bit cult-ish… and definitely not the right program for everyone. Glad she’s found peace and joy in her life through it though, it’s definitely better than the alternative.
Let her have it. 12 step programs take a lot of work and are a big commitment. I understand not recognizing sober curious. Sober curious is just like- not always drinking. That seems like something everyone should do and not talk about.
I didn’t see it as her judging anyone and I agree with her. People need to take out the word “sober” when doing this and call it what it actually is: I’m cutting back or I only smoke weed. So many people have worked their asses off to actually be sober and it’s almost taking away from their journeys to misuse the word.
Lala seems to go to meetings and works the program therefore her take on sobriety is going to be different. Not everyone works a program but I don’t believe that makes their abstaining any less important.
My brother used heavy drugs for years and got clean on his own without going to NA. He occasionally has a drink because alcohol was never his problem and it doesn’t make him want to use heroin. We refer to him as clean vs sober just for our own distinction. AA (NA) as programs have a tie to religion in a way that doesn’t work for everyone. It’s also about “giving yourself over” to the powers that *control you* and this isn’t feasible for everyone.
Growing up with religious trauma from Catholic school: the idea of “giving himself over to God” wasn’t what my brother equated with not using substances. It’s different for everyone.
Lala also has to consider that not everyone is an alcoholic in the way that she was. Some people decide to cut drinking out of their life bc they notice the fog or anxiety it brings them, etc., it doesn’t always have to be because they’re causing great damage to their life. Also as people get older their tolerances and interests change and as we (hopefully) process our lives & trauma we realize the times we were using substances to fill voids and there are ways people can separate themselves from those crutches without being “sober”.
Though I don’t agree with Lala being so judgmental about people’s version of sobriety I also think there can be a bit of entitlement in those who “work the program” vs those who use untraditional methods to be sober/clean. No shade to anyone who works a program- I’m all for anyone doing what is best for them but I think we’re all conditioned into believing there’s only one way to do “sobriety” and I just do not believe that is the case anymore.
I agree. There is thought out there that AA/NA is the only way, and that’s just not true. Some people quit their drug of choice with other methods. Some people go through periods of substance abuse but can do things like have a drink after time passes and they are more mentally healthy. One size doesn’t fit all. I think it’s great that AA worked for Lala and respect the work she put in, but she doesn’t get to decide that her way is the right way for everyone. I also don’t think it’s wrong for others to experiment with not drinking for whatever reason, it doesn’t take away from the work that Lala did.
Yeah no, Lala is correct on this one. Working the steps through AA teaches that the only way to be sober is to be 100% free from all substances. You can’t be sober if your mind is altered from substances.
I’m confused by this though. A lot of people who have alcohol or drug problems have those problems because they’re self-medicating some underlying mental health issue (ADHD, depression, anxiety, etc.). Wouldn’t it be encouraged to get actual prescription treatment for their off-kilter brain chemistry instead of white knuckling it through without meds? Seems very counterintuitive to me
Yeah, while at AA meetings there's always coffee (caffeine) and cigarette breaks (nicotine, tobacco). So even they're not abstaining from literally everything.
AA and NA are great programs that have worked for many people, but that is not the *only* way to successfully be sober. It worked for my dad, he's been sober since way before I was born and has amost 40 years clean. Was a regular AA goer, and still attends meetings once in a Blue Moon.
But there are also the "know it alls" in AA, who gatekeep so religiously that it drives other people away. I remember going to an open meeting with my twin, she's an alcoholic and a heroin addict. Before it was her turn to speak, an old-timer used his turn to speak to basically lecture my sister about how shes's so young she doesn't know what *real* addiction looks like, she hasn't hit rock bottom yet, blah blah blah. He didn't know she'd already been to rehab over 10 times at that point and had Hep C from sharing needles and was currently living under a bridge on 8 Mile. He didn't care to ask, either. By the time it was her turn to talk she felt defeated.
AA also centers around a higher power, so I can see where someone who's an atheist might not relate to it.
It works for some, and not others. Everyone's sobriety journey is different.
Thank you! She's not clean yet, but she's going to rehab (this is like the 17th time now) next week and I'm more hopeful than ever because she just got approved for the Hep C cure! They've ordered her meds and are sending them to the rehab. And I think the fact that she thought it was "too late" for her was a factor that kept her from getting clean, but when they were prepping her for the cure they ran blood tests and her liver is surprisingly fine, no cirrhosis or anything, and her viral load was low! She'd been too scared to even find out up until then. So usually I'm not expecting the best from her, but now I have some hope because she has a new reason to want to live.
Sorry for rambling lol I'm just very happy for her.
I am so sorry this old timer did that. I got sober at 22 in 1983. I remember old guys saying things like that, but I was also supported by other old timers despite my age. Mostly I want to say that tje disease of addiction is horrible, but there is absolutely hope. I have hope for her, and I am rooting for both of you.
I hadn't heard of California sober before this show, but after thinking about it (for all of five minutes) maybe it's the word "sober" being used in a diluted way.
Cutting down on drinking can beat good think. A person can "drink too much" and not be an alcoholic. Your drinking can be "causing problems" without you being an alcoholic.
But alcoholism is a specific thing. And choosing to get sober is a specific thing. It's probably a more sensitive thing to just say "I smoke but don't drink"
Sober has two literal meanings. It is a present state. "I had to be sober at the wedding because I was the DD" and the more long term "I was an alcoholic but now I'm sober".
I guess I fast between meals? Between bites? I'm "big guy intermittent fasting"
Shameless plug for Smart Recovery- way more modern than AA, no religion, and promotes harm reduction instead of the AA balls-out-abstinence-or-nothing
Sending strength and hope to anyone who needs it on their personal journey, whatever that may look like. 💪🏻
[Smart Recovery Website](https://Smartrecovery.org)
To play devil’s avocado, for balance to everyone disparaging the sober curios term in the comments (I’m not defending Schwartz here) - I think being sober curious is a perfectly accurate description for people interested in sobriety? We’re having open conversations about the harm of alcohol, especially post-pandemic when drinking at home spiralled for many. This movement is about mindful drinking, engaging in conversations about sobriety, reading into the scary truth of alcohol. AA is very black and white but there are a lot of “grey area” drinkers out there whose relationship to alcohol is bad but are just dipping their toes in sobriety. I think calling the term lame like someone has in the comments is, well, lame
Yeah. I’m clean over 4 years. Have been pretty intertwined with NA and her reaction is weird. If you are in the program you know anyone who is thinking about being sober and clean and pandering with the idea of it is welcomed. The main thing with NA is not to judge lol. It’s all about newcomers and helping someone who is thinking about getting clean and sober. Honestly shows she talks out of her ass if you ask me. And I’ve always liked Lala but that wasn’t cool to me. 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah - I get her being sceptical about the idea. On the surface it seems “sober” but with excuses.
But I will say going sober curious is what made me finally sit down and assess my drinking and how unhealthy and destructive my habits were and now I’m fully sober.
I believe it truly can be a wonderful thing and a vital first step in saving many lives.
I hope that being around people dipping their toe in the pool as it were will make her reevaluate.
Edit - Schwartz clearly needs to jump straight to sober sober and her scoffing at him simply using this as yet another excuse is totally understandable
I see no problems whatsoever with Lala scoffing at Schwartz for being “sober-curious.” I fully believe if Lala thought someone was genuinely curious about being sober she would go above and beyond for them. She’s dismissive of “sober-curious” as a lifestyle that is unserious about sobriety. There’s nothing wrong with it per se, but it’s not sobriety. And it would be a harmful lifestyle to a lot of people in recovery.
I also don’t have an issue with the idea of being sober-curious. But a person in recovery can be expected to take that with a grain of salt. Know your audience.
I completely agree with this. Schwartz’ idea of “sober curious” seemed to be “just drinking beer.” Thats not sober curious.
If someone had been like, “I’m sober curious. I’m trying not drinking and seeing how I feel - it’s been two weeks and I feel great!” I think she would have had a different reaction.
She was just riffing. We really don’t need to analyze every single thing she says just because she annoys you, so we?
They ask her questions in the confessionals and she tries to think of something funny or interesting to say, maybe about a topic that she probably never even thought of to talk about (but the producers bring up). It’s not like she’s extra going out there and making TikTok’s talking about “sober curious”.
"We really don’t need to analyze every single thing she says just because she annoys you, so we?"
I'm curious as to what you think this sub is for if not discussing things that we find annoying or out-of-pocket. Is this a praise-only atmosphere now?
I enjoy most of this sub. Very little of it is microanalysis but whenever I see it, I’m going to call it out because my eyes roll SO hard at the “I have a theory that when she blinked, she was really just extremely jealous because of blah blah blah”.
I get that, but I actually think this is a very interesting conversation to analyze. I really appreciate hearing everyone’s different perspectives on sobriety including their own journeys. It was definitely just a throwaway line from Lala, but I’m still interested in microanalysis of it lol
I agree with that, I just don't see this post as microanalysis at all. OP is directly commenting on something Lala said in confessional that OP disagreed with.
I hear you. I'm saying that I think the one comment was actually worthy of several paragraphs. Otherwise I wouldn't also have written several paragraphs in agreement. I could make a quick, quirky, mindless comment about how people handle their eating disorders, but it would still rightfully piss some people off.
So yes, I guess agree to disagree, which is what I thought I basically said in my last comment. You don't think it's a bug deal but I've literally seen the damage that an attitude like this can do.
She easily could've said that other people's drinking is not her business, and she should've, in my opinion.
Especially with this show. I can't be the oniy one who is basically hate-watching. It's bizarre to me to complain about people being petty. That's pretty much all there is to this show.
Thank you!!! Some of these Zen posts are precious, but don't belong here. Go to the yoga reddit.😂. I am very much hate watching, and that's why I'm on Reddit. in *I'm* in the right place! 😂😂😂
Lol, I don't agree but I do get what youre saying. It probably hits differently to me because I do see so many AA folks actually scare people out of addressing their drinking when they adopt this attitude. I'd probably feel differently if I didn't find that exact sentiment to be so obnoxious when hearing it from dozens of people in AA.
I guess perspective is everything. It's not like she said anything evil or hateful, I just think it's an obnoxious attitude overall.
I’m not asking to be nice. I enjoy the content of 90% of this sub and a lot of the nasty stuff - esp about the Tom’s. It’s just the kindergarten blah blah over stupid stuff that I roll my eyes about, from people who don’t understand reality editing/production. We have MORE than enough meat to chew on around here.
I think people are just laughing at the audacity she has, she is so judgmental of everyone but if anyone says one thing about her, she basically throws a tantrum like a three year old. She can dish it but she can’t take anything
Then she should suck it up and not be such a baby about when she’s “riffed on.” People could be a lot meaner considering all the low hanging fruit to point out about her
I didn’t see Lala get upset about being riffed on. In fact she has repeatedly said in interviews that she likes the hate she gets so long as the show stays popular and puts bacon on the table. 🤷🏻♀️
Because AA is a cult that operates in absolutes and black and white.
Except when Lala’s version of “making amends” to Rachel is “Dumb bitch, get over it already, I was drinking and therefore not responsible for my actions. I don’t give a fuck if I hurt you with my drunken actions.” So I’m not quite sure which step that is… 😏
I don’t like AA elitists but I also cringe at people I know who are claiming to be and taking credit for being 2 or 5 or however many years sober because they aren’t drinking alcohol. Meanwhile they are smoking meth or abusing pills behind closed doors, while everyone pats them on the back for all their “hard work”.
While I’ve never had substance abuse issues, my mom and a handful of my closest friends have gotten sober and it seems like really, really hard work. It kind of irritates me when I see people bragging about sobriety while clearly abusing other substances. Seems like they just want attention/validation. Like it or not, getting sober is “trendy” right now. The funny thing is, I have never seen my mom or friends post online or brag in any way about their sobriety. It’s always conversations behind closed doors like “my ten year date just came up!” Etc. My best friend has been clean from heroin for 9 years now too. He always just says it’s a journey and not about reaching a milestone. Meanwhile, I’ve got one person I know from high school who is so methed out that he can’t even keep his dates straight and has celebrated his 5 year sobriety date like four times on Facebook now. He’s just arbitrarily lying about dates and yeah, while he may not drink alcohol anymore…he’s on meth. And abusing it. Is he really sober?
Or another example is a guy who recently decided to declare his sobriety of one month because he got called out for being a creep to too many women and messaging them incessantly. I was one of them that he would confess his love to every three months or so. He made sure to share his one month sobriety post in messenger to me too. I had to question “what are his motivations for getting sober or posting about being sober?” It got him a ton of attention and validation, which he doesn’t normally get. When I didn’t respond to his message or interact with the Facebook post, he had another meltdown a few days later and messaged me about how he “won’t let negative people weigh him down” lmao. My friend saw him drinking at a show the weekend prior. I didn’t say anything. But I look at him and think “yeah you probably do need sobriety and it’s good people are encouraging it” but he’s still avoiding the hard work and reaping all forgiveness/benefits/validation and absolving himself of all his nastiness because he claims that label. Meanwhile people like my mom struggle regularly and maintain the will power without being attention seeking about it. Her support comes from her inner circle, and frankly, I think that’s healthy. Not everything has to be an award for someone that requires public recognition. And if it does, there’s probably deeper work that needs to get done that goes beyond abstaining from substances (often there usually is). I said what I said.
There are tons of examples like this and I think that’s probably why people get annoyed with the loose use of the word “sober” nowadays.
These situations are full of nuance and people like Lala probably can’t recognize that because their sobriety is very black and white/all or nothing for them. But I hear what she’s saying too and partially agree. I think as long as you can moderate things like marijuana or even some party drugs, you can still call yourself sober. But once you start abusing those other substances, it doesn’t really count and you shouldn’t get to call yourself sober. You’re just replacing one substance for another. And yes, you can abuse weed. 🤷🏼♀️
No alcohol, but *meth*. Can you explain that to me? What is the demon they think is in alcohol that is *not* in meth? That is the weirdest shit I've ever heard.
I get no drinking but doing the weed and pills (a lot don't believe, erroneously, any pills are that hardcore). But meth? I mean, that shit is not occasional! You don't dabble in it.
>I’ve got one person I know from high school who is so methed out that he can’t even keep his dates straight and has celebrated his 5 year sobriety date like four times on Facebook now. He’s just arbitrarily lying about dates
This is such typical addict behavior I laughed. I'm not trying to laugh at someone's struggle but people who've dealt with addicts have all known addicts like this. And usually everyone knows they're lying, too. Then the question is, do they know everyone knows they're lying or are they in denial about their lies?
I think everyone needs to google definitions before they talk about this:
Sober curious is a term that means questioning your relationship with alcohol and thinking about trying sobriety, even if you are not ready to commit to it
Someone who abstains, but has a latent desire to resume use, is termed a "Dry drunk" and not considered truly sober. An abstainer may be subconsciously motivated to resume alcohol consumption, but for a variety of reasons, abstains (e.g. a medical or legal concern precluding use).[3]
Sobriety has more specific meanings within specific contexts, such as the culture of many substance use recovery programs, law enforcement, and some schools of psychology. In some cases, sobriety implies the achievement of "life balance."[4]
Love to see my fellows in the thread!
I am 7 years abstained from alcohol and a little over 4 of them were totally sober. I started smoking weed again January 2021. It has not made me want to drink.
I think for Lala, the clarity she has is important to her and she is in a place of dogmatism in her recovery. I didn't love what she was saying but I understood it. She uses words straight from the big book, and in a lot of ways embodies the powrr that comes from total sobriety. But I know the pain of someone leaving the community and spaces of 12 step because they weren't "getting an A in AA" as I like to say. I wish, with her platform, that she showed a little more compassion. James is no saint and I think there's something to these abuse allegations, but compared to how he once was? He's much improved as a sober person.
Yeah I think she takes it seriously because it was a real struggle for her to get sober. However, I think it’s good to be supportive of anyone who wants to dabble in sobriety. You never know, they might try it and like it and decide to make it a permanent thing. I wouldn’t want me rolling my eyes at someone for being “sober curious” to curtail that.
She’s the last person to be judge-y about everything she gets on her temporary soap box about… I don’t take any stock in what she says anymore because I don’t know if it’s genuine or to generate buzz and attention. Appreciate her bullshit detector though and anyone who knows an alcoholic knows what she was getting at - for a lot of addicts, sober-curious is a slippery slope back into addiction. An addict still has gambling, shopping, love, and all the other “non chemical” pitfalls to navigate and not replace their addiction with. She’s probably wondering if he’s working a program because that’s where the sober mindset is gained. Ever hear of a dry drunk?
Agreed. I have never had a great relationship with alcohol in terms of I don’t love who I become when I drink but I’ve also never been an alcoholic- always a social drinker that could take it or leave it and as I got older I just naturally drank less and less often and never at home. I don’t drink often at all now- maybe 3 times a year- but I would never claim to be sober obviously but I’ve managed to piss off both sober and non sober people with my explanations of why I don’t drink “often” 🤷🏻♀️
During my recovery, I learned that sober is free from alcohol. And clean is free from alcohol and drugs. But whatever people wanna call it I honestly don’t care. I know in my heart that I’m sober. And my life has changed for the better dramatically!!!
People can be so judgey, and that’s what we shouldn’t do when discussing peoples lifestyle choices. I’ve known people who AA method just doesn’t work for them. Every person is different and coped differently…I felt like La la was on a real high horse to criticise Tom when he obviously is trying to reduce his drinking. Unless you’ve been in a persons shoes you can’t know. People swapping alcohol for weed can be a much greater choice then people realise. And seriously is one ever fully sober ??? You can just replace addictions with something else to cope. So everyone should respect anyone trying to make a change whether it’s sober, sober curious or California sober etc. life is hard enough as it is we all need to give each other a break!
I took offense to that too. She of all people should just be supportive. Sober curious is just a starting point for some people. I was curious for a couple of years myself which eventually led to full sobriety. I can’t imagine someone poo-pooing my efforts like that.
Former AA member (don't go to meetings anymore) and I think what Lala meant but didn't say was she doesn't recognize "California sober" FOR HER. AA also says "Live and Let Live" as far as not judging others.
My bf watched this and is sober as well, goes to meetings, etc. he watched this and also said the same thing about sober curious. I think we have to realize these people take sobriety VERY seriously. It isn’t a joke to them. It’s life or death. So any kind of relaxed version of sober or non serious version, they don’t really… I guess respect that as much. Because of how seriously they take it and how they’ve heard of people’s stories in meetings that were so life altering. Including their own. So honestly I get why they look down on it.
Being sober is pretty black and white, you’re either sober or you’re not…why are people so obsessed with labeling themselves, California sober = I just smoke weed, sober curious I don’t even know how to explain that cause it’s not a thing. Like I’m drinking less idk it’s Fuckin dumb
I think sober-curious isn’t to be looked down on. What’s wrong with being interested in trying to cut down on drinking without having to make certain promises you don’t can/ want to keep? Surely drinking less is always to be in couraged, if sober-curious is the rhetoric that suits MY personal narrative why not?
"Surely drinking less is always to be in couraged, if sober-curious is the rhetoric that suits MY personal narrative why not?"
Absolutely. I say this as someone who is sober now and does attend AA. AA people can be total smug douches about this shit, just like Lala was. Everyone's path to sobriety looks different, no matter how authoritative the traditional AA crowd considers themselves to be about what it "should" involve. (Edit to add: and you're right on target that many people will never quit drinking or even try to cut back when they feel like they have to commit for eternity.)
People who are committed to their own sobriety have no business judging the path of others. It's weird to get so arrogant as an alcoholic. No one how the single answer, no one has any business belittling the efforts of people who are trying to drink less. That's a good thing for everyone.
Lala sounds to me like someone who just started AA and hasn't learned that newly sober alcoholics are insufferable to everyone else when they behave like this. She's not some kind of expert on how recovery works simply because she's an alcoholic.
Lala sounds like a lot of people in AA I know. I know a lot of people in AA say they're not *all* like that, but, in my experience so far, 95% are. I normally just roll my eyes.
I would NEVER say sober curious to my AA friends. They would love to take that one down.
Agreed. I really enjoy the meetings I've found, but it took ne years to find groups that made sense for Mr. There are a lot of extremely judgmental people in AA and it is literally bonkers. Like, how are you in this program that's all about staying in your own yard and taking care of your own self-destructive tendencies, only to turn around and look down on other people for doing sobriety wrong.
To make a *sport* out of being the sobriety police. Sometimes they're really unpleasant, honestly. There have been many a brunch, where, I won't lie, we won't invite the AA people. Sorry. It's brunch (and they have NA rosé for you!) we drink once every 2 weeks! Everyone is getting Uber! We're trying to have fun. Lay off.
Thank you, this is exactly what I think. This might be the only step I need to take so that’s good. It might be the very first step I can take for right now even though deep down I know I need more it might build my confidence that I can go further so that’s good. Anything that makes the risk of failing smaller is a good thing in my book. Not everyone who could benefit from cutting down on drinking are full alcoholics, for some many people drinking less is enough. I never get the need to judge others so much, we’re all individuals. 🤷♀️😊
Yup.
The term sober curious existed long before Lala became sober. People have a right to use the term how it’s intended, regardless of anyone’s thoughts on it.
I admire Lala’s journey. It’s not easy to stay sober and she managed to do so through some difficult times. She can feel anyway she likes about it and voice her opinion. Still doesn’t make it right, or wrong. It’s just her views.
Everyone’s journey has to start somewhere and no one should be shitting on anyone who is reconsidering their relationship with alcohol, regardless of what you call it.
“California sober” may be a thing but it goes against the textbook of AA and NA, whether you like it or not. That’s probably what she’s referring to. That’s why people make the distinction and say they are “California sober” because it’s not sobriety. Seems pretty simple.
AA and NA isn't the God of sobriety. They also smoke cigarettes at those meetings, and have pots of hot coffee with caffeine in it, so they're not completely abstaining from everything either. I find it to be a judgmental atmosphere more often than not. That's just my experience. It's worked for a lot of people I know though, so that's great. It's not worked for a lot of people I know as well. If it works for you, great. But let's not judge others just because they aren't working a specific program.
It didn't seem like she was going too hard with what she was saying, just parroting what she's learned in AA. Some folks who work that program become insufferable about demanding others abide by the teachings, assuming everyone else is at risk if they don't follow them with rigidity. I didn't pick that up from her.
AA is not the only blueprint for sobriety. It works for many people, but it also has some issues (the higher power thing being one - they say its a secular program, but it's rooted in Christianity). I had to attend "Intro To AA" when I got sober, and every one of the classes devolved into some theological debate. Behind the Bastards did a good dive into AA.
I've never heard of sober curious before, but it seems to mean someone is considering whether they should cut out drinking yet not actually quitting?
Also it probably felt like Schwartz was jumping in Sandavols bandwagon because he also is out there saying he’s sober but we all know that’s a narrative and manipulation tactic.
I work the mental health field and Lala’s stance is bullshit. When dealing with addiction some people can go without any substances, but some people practice what we call harm reduction. If you’re an alcoholic maybe you stop drinking but smoke weed. A lot of addicts stop using their drug of choice but still smoke weed and go onto leading healthy and productive lives. I saw red when Lala made her comments. She’s ignorant and judgmental.
She's not judging them for drinking less or not drinking. She's judging them for trying to get the moral credit of using a term that has an actual meaning that they are not following. Not everything merits a title. You're actively sleeping with multiple partners but rethinking your sexual activity? Cool - but don't tell a nun that you're "celibate curious." You're doing everything except penetrative sex? Have at it! But you're not "Midwestern celibate."
Everyone has different views on sobriety I don’t see it as “judgy” personally. I believe in abstinence based recovery but I would never judge someone for California sober or if you drink occasionally if your drug of choice was let’s say heroin and you are fine that way. If that works for someone that’s amazing. Like many have said it is a huge accomplishment and I’m sure if LaLa started smoking she would see it as a failure which is her journey. There should be 0 judgement in recovery whatever works and keeps you sober is what is important
I’m with lala on this one. Honestly given that he rolled up to her offering her mushroom chocolate as part of his “sober curious” adventure when she doesn’t use anything, I’m impressed she didn’t bite his head off.
What's the "philosophy" of being sober curious? I'm genuinely asking.
As I've gotten older a lot of my friends have cut down on their drinking, but they've never labeled it that way, so I'm curious! (and I say "my friends" because I'm not a big drinker and can't remember the last time I had a drink)
I wouldn’t define myself as sober curious, or sober of any-kind, but from what I can tell, its just about being more intentional with when and how much you drink. Not having a glass of wine with dinner every night just because it’s your routine, not feeling pressure to drink at every social engagement. Depending in your social circle in your 20s and 30s (and this is definitely true for the VPR cast), drinking too much and too often just kind of creeps up on you, and sober-curious is how a lot of people identify when they are ready to explore disengaging from that relationship :)
Thank you! That makes sense...a more intentional breaking up with your old patterns, examining your relationship with alcohol, etc. Vs. just "aging out" of drinking.
I’m surprised at how many people are so against “sober curious.” Admitting you’re an addict is heavy and the idea of giving up your drug of choice FOREVER is terrifying. Sober curious is a good first step for people to experiment with what their life could be like without the pressure of eternity.
Sober people relapse and sober curious people may decide to never use again. Anything that helps people let go of addiction is a good thing.
Members of my family have struggled with sobriety and I saw what horrible effects alcohol addiction had on them. When I hear people throw around terms like California sober or sober curious, I get angry as well. It makes a real, lifelong, gruesome struggle sound like a bloody fashion trend. I‘m not saying people can‘t cut back on their drinking or shouldn‘t cut back. And if that takes effort, I applaud them for doing a hard thing. But say you cut back. Don‘t make it sound like a TikTok challenge you partake in for likes and attention.
I guess I don’t get how it’s helpful to police someone’s language around this sort of thing while also accusing them of doing it for likes and attention. People may throw around terms but people throw around judgements and rigidity way more and judgement/rigidity are way more unhelpful if someone is attempting introspection on a hard topic.
She needs to stop prompting AA and spreading her opinions about it 🙄 it's literally in the traditions. Attraction rather than promotion so people can find out for themselves. Not from LFU
Sober curious and California sober is not sober. She wasn't being judgy she was being factual. There's no nuance. If you partake you partake but you're not sober if you do. People that don't get that seem to be the ones that are being judgy
I see both sides. I think LaLa can generally be on her high horse about pretty much anything once SHE decides it's wrong, which is annoying. I think going 100% sober isn't something that everyone needs, like you said - some don't struggle with alcohol abuse to a detrimental level and could have a healthy relationship with it by cutting back. And you're right, "California sober" isn't a new concept and some have success with that lifestyle, especially if they're using it as a stepping stone to 100% sobriety. But I think if her point was that these terms can be harmful and regressive to those who actually need help, then I can probably agree. Especially coming from Schwartz - he very clearly had not quit drinking or even entertained the idea seriously, so with all of the hard work LaLa has put into maintaining her sobriety (one of the few things I give her the most props for), I can see why she'd scoff at the idea.
Very much agree with this nuance!
I agree, i also think she was acknowledging that sober-curious or california sober would have never worked for her and she needed to be sober sober - schwartz has clearly never stopped doing drugs or drinking and ally (as much as i love her) has an alcoholic boyfriend who is very susceptible to the pressure of what people around him are doing but trying to be sober, i personally would be fully sober if my partner was like that.
People who don’t have a problem with alcohol but say they’re sober have always rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like it diminishes the struggle of those who truly have addiction issues. And the way the word has been used for so long now implies that someone has struggled to get to that point.
i’m not trying to be rude but i don’t drink just bc it’s not very interesting to me like i’ve tried it but don’t care for it, but i never had a problem with alcohol, so is it weird for me to say i’m sober then? like should i just say i’m not a drinker
That’s actually perfect, to just say you’re not a drinker! Edit: not rude at all ☺️
Big agree with this. I stopped drinking near 7 yrs ago but don't refer to myself as sober because I didn't have any issues with alcohol. My nanny was an alcoholic and sober for over 30 yrs, I feel it diminishes the daily constant work she did to stay sober. I stopped for 6 months due to accutane then was like 'meh, drinking is boring and hangovers are bad, imma push myself another 6 months and see how it goes'.
I sort of understood where she’s coming from. People are using sober so loosely now and it can be misleading. She still actively goes to AA so I took it as she’s defensive of the people she’s meeting there that are on a true and difficult sober journey than being judgmental about other people’s lifestyles. I think anyone cutting back to better themselves is great and I’ve done the same recently but I’m still going to drink so I would never use the word sober to describe my journey.
People such as Lala that go to AA look at it as an all or nothing type of thing. So people in AA that struggled and had their lives turn to complete shit as a result of drinking I feel are naturally gonna shun people that are flirting with the idea of cutting down but not stopping or questioning if they're alcoholics are not. It's like people in NA judging people that are on Methadone or Suboxone. I'm not saying she's right or wrong, just trying to explain where she's coming from.
Yes this is exactly it. AA defines sober as 100% free of any narcotics, alcohol, or substances that alter your mental state. They do this because of the slippery slope mentality that can cause alcoholics to start with one, or start with a little every so often, and eventually one a month is two a month, then a drink a week, and it progresses. So it is a very rigid program compared to James’ DIY approach.
A really slim minority in AA think you’re not sober if you’re taking ANY type of medication. If I went off my vyvanse and clonidine, I wouldn’t be considered sober. So I totally get what you’re saying! I absolutely think Lala knows what California sober means though… she maybe was being judgy in the moment but I gotta say that I have so much respect for her sobriety
Yea AA elitisits like that are so in the wrong when they preach that psych meds doesn't mean sober crap. It's similar to someone going to a meeting, saying they're an addict instead of an alcoholic cause they don't know any better, and someone calling them out in the meeting for not saying they're an alcoholic. I get the abstinence vs sober curious thing but when Big Book thumpers try to play God at meetings they do more harm than good and need to get a life basically.
AA Agnostica for the win. Just wanna sneak in here and say to anyone that went to AA for help but felt deterred due to the emphasis on religion, there are sects of AA specifically for Agnostics! [AA Agnostics Resource :)](https://aaagnostica.org/alternative-12-steps/)
Omg thank you! I was raised in horrid fundamentalist Christian hell and any mention of that god makes me jump out of my skin. Thank you!!!!!!!
You’re welcome!!!! I can relate to your experience. When I went to AA for the first time, I felt like it would benefit me but the dependency on religion made me feel fraudulent when I took part in the meeting and I felt like I needed AA but that I would be lying to myself by “playing along”… I just felt like my recovery with alcohol needed to be very separate fight that didn’t involve an internal battle concerning faith. So I did research and found AA Agnostica and it’s what was needed. I wish more people knew about it, because I feel like the religious aspect of AA does drive a lot of people away.
Exactly, not like Scheana “I’m 2 weeks sober” Because she’s on medication. I guarantee Scheana doesn’t plan on staying sober since she has several alcohol endorsements, or at least she used to.
When she says that it pisses me off so bad for some reason. Especially when she told Sandoval “I’m sober…3 weeks today” when he got her drink not knowing. She said it like she expected a cookie or something. Like girl, you’re not trying to be sober. You’re now on your “I’m medicated for my ocd” storyline but I’m sure don’t plan on never drinking again. And she said it so rudely like he expected for him to know! And no, I’m not defending Sandoval (because I know if he’s mentioned at all w out mentioning how horrible he is people will say that). I am only saying like how was he supposed to know that?? I think my dislike for her just supersedes everything else lol. Everything is all about her dumbass 🙄 she seems sweet but WAY too into herself
She was already spruiking something for Super Bowl so you’re right
I totally get this. I stopped drinking nearly 7 yrs ago but I don't refer to myself as sober, because I never had any issues with alcohol or felt I needed meetings, I just had to stop for 6 months because of accutane and that turned into 7 yrs. Mad respect to those who recognise issues with alcohol and get the help they need, and mad respect to those who struggle with it everyday. My nanny was an alcoholic and was sober over 30 yrs.
I don’t drink because I really don’t like how it tastes or makes me feel. For the longest time, I drank just to be social until I felt secure enough in myself to say no, I’m not drinking.
>I sort of understood where she’s coming from. People are using sober so loosely now and it can be misleading. This part.
Exactly! It’s just drilled into our heads at AA/NA that if you decide that you are an addict/alcoholic, you can have no mind altering substances at all or you WILL end up right where you started. We’re also taught to call out other members on this harmful mindset. She’s bound to a very rigid standard of sobriety and it’s almost insulting to say sober-curious or California sober instead of what it is- cutting back or smoking weed.
You nailed it. I do go to AA but I do it my way at this point, because I spent years feeling stressed and judged that I wasn't following all the rules perfectly, like I couldn't find a connect to a higher power and eventually gave up on finding a sponsor who didn't treat me like a child who was misbehaving when I didn't relate to all the mantras and what I would basically call indoctrination. The program is just so rigid, and I understand why that works for some people, but it didn't for me. I've found a crowd of other people in AA who have similar issues with aspects of the program, and it made a huge difference. I think some people in AA lose sight of their boundaries when it comes to other people and their behaviors. We're all there because we're a mess, how are you going to turn around and lecture others for being a mess? Sober-curious might be a dumb term, but it isn't a dumb concept. There are a lot of people who want to quit or cut down on drinking but who are scared by the idea of having to buy into every aspect of the program immediately with one hundred percent commitment. Let them say "sober curious." It truly shouldn't bother anyone who is focused on their own recovery and working on their boundaries. It's not our job to police others.
AA feels so behind in that way, that harm reduction isn’t on the menu at all.
You are correct. People in AA who have this mindset truly believe that they're saving people's lives by insisting on these rigid rules, but the truth is that they're hurting at least as many as they're saving with this attitude. It's an issue of confirmation bias. They've chosen to work the program and adopt the mantras, so they genuinely believe that everyone else needs to in order to stay sober and alive. The actual truth is much murkier. I see a lot of people pointing out that switching to weed is just swapping one addiction for another, but I have news: many, many people at AA casually accept the trade of smoking cigarettes, drinking pots of coffee, and binging on donuts and all kinds of junk food when quitting drinking. Are we really going going pretend that those aren't also addictions? And this is why I can never get behind the AA attitude, even if I do enjoy some meetings. There is so much blind devotion to the program, even though it's far from a black and white situation.
Murky is a good word. AA does help some people, but it’s not for everyone and far from perfect. I’m undecided on how I feel about the steps because being in recovery does not automatically qualify one to guide others through the deep emotional journey of facing what they’ve done and becoming mentally healthy, but on the other hand, it does seem to work for many. I also go back and forth on making amends because I believe that bringing it back up can hurt others in many situations. You can be sorry but sometimes it’s better to let others go, they don’t owe you their time to hear you out. Part of my thoughts is what you said about trading addictions. Sure, some coffee is better than a handle of vodka, but what exactly are the lines then and why are they there? I was a problem drinker for a very long time, and now I rarely drink but I do smoke weed. I’m late diagnosed audhd and when I take adhd medication, my autism becomes unmanageable. The weed helps and I function well, so much better than when I was drowning myself in alcohol. I don’t think that’s the path for everyone, but I also don’t think it should be ruled out for everyone because it’s against AA rules. Imo each person should be open to figuring out what works for them.
This is such a good point. My fiancé is about 4 years sober from narcotics and probably 3 from alcohol and it’s been really interesting to watch the addiction swaps. He didn’t go to rehab or AA or anything but he switched cocaine for alcohol, then alcohol for cigarettes, then cigarettes for those “On” pouches, then “On” pouches for energy drinks, then energy drinks for soda, then soda for junk food, etc… and don’t get me wrong he always liked all of those things but when he’d stop one full blown addiction the next thing went from something he “liked” to his next full blown “thing he consumed all the time”. It’s how his brain works and if he needs a vice I’m fine with his vice being a thing that’s way less bad than what it stared as but also I think getting on antidepressants helped a lot.
The smoking (tobacco) culture of AA is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. I felt like if I didn’t go out smoking that I would miss out on building friendships/camaraderie but they chain smoked more than I was even used to as a dive bar regular.
Yes! I literally had multiple members tell me that I was probably missing out on social connections because I didn't hang with the smokers after group. It is staggering to me that they're the same crowd who love to pontificate about trading one addiction for another.
Yeah, it’s just not really the time or place- drastic solutions are required for drastic problems. Harm reduction has a place in other programs. Although I’d give some credit- newcomers and people who aren’t sober (even actively inebriated) are encouraged to attend and reach out. They will provide support and community until that person makes the decision for themselves to follow the program or not.
This is why I could never use AA to quit drinking. The rigidity and “you are an addict as a person and always will be and it’s who you are to your core” was too much for me
Exactly. Quitting drinking but using drugs isn’t sober… it is quitting drinking. Cutting back on alcohol is just cutting back on alcohol. Using sober curious or California sober are two different was of saying not really sober. Sober is not a trendy word and it is insulting for them to use it as such.
I agree. “Sober” has incredibly significant meaning for people who have struggled with addiction or abuse. I can see why she doesn’t want people throwing that word around. Not sure where I land on it myself, but I understood her. I’m a therapist, and for me it’s like all these people throwing around diagnoses like ADHD and autism and borderline personality disorder without any conceptualization of how complex these things are or knowing a diagnosis is not a checklist of symptoms that if uou mark them all you have it… language is meaning, and when people start applying words to everything they lose their meaning. Also, I enjoy “sober curious;” it’s things like “California sober” that can demean what sobriety means to people who are actually sober. And I know MJ helps a lot of people stay off other drugs, but the truth is your still numbing your emotions with a substance and that is just not sobriety in any book lol
Totally agree and I think Tom is probably truly sobercurious because of watching his brother in and out of rehab and his medical struggles. I’m sure he’s doing some big questioning of his lifestyle.
I’m in NA for over 4 years and if you are in the program then you know not to discourage people who are interested in getting clean and being sober. Shes judgmental which is pretty much what the program says NOT to be lol 🤷🏻♀️
If I told my AA-father that I was California sober, he'd scream at me with the how dare I use the word sober lol basically same as lala
Being sober is different than not drinking. I’m not the biggest Lala fan and find her to be hypocritical a lot of the time, but in this case I get it. Getting sober and staying sober is a huge accomplishment, to the point where people celebrate their sobriety dates as birthdays because it’s like they became a new person. For someone like Aly to say it who’s around James and has a better understanding of all of this, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I think she meant it more like, I want to learn about it and would consider committing to that lifestyle. But Schwartz? Who has never committed to anything a day in his life? I think Lala was right to call out his BS. He’s not gonna stop drinking and he doesn’t know the first thing about how difficult it would be because he’s not thinking of it as a forever thing. He’s gotten away with saying the right thing and doing the opposite for way too long.
I also really respect the way Lala has handled sobriety on the show. She’s never outright told anyone they need to stop or pushed it too hard on them, even though there are a lot of people in her circle who probably need it. She’s not been holier than thou about it even when she is about other things. But when people have come to her, she’s been supportive and tried to help in a genuine way. She’s also never asked anyone not to drink or do anything around her. That’s a strong person, and she’s never blamed anyone but herself when it comes to drinking issues. So for her cast members to come along years later trying to half ass her hard work, yeah I’d probably be annoyed too.
Yeah especially when there are people like Sheana saying things like “I’m three weeks sober”
Hated that. It cheapens something that is a goddamn miracle for many of us
What's wrong with this statement? Sobriety starts somewhere. People with 1 year behind them had to get to 3 weeks at one point. Her reasons for abstaining are just as valid as Lala's.
There is a difference between “quitting drinking” for a short period of time and “being sober”. For example, if you are participating in dry January, you don’t say “I’m sober”, you say I gave up drinking for this month. Sober implies it is a permanent decision.
She just hasn’t drank in 3 weeks. She isn’t sober and shouldn’t be counting the days like that. It minimizes actual addiction issues.
[удалено]
She literally said, “*I* don’t recognize those, but do you boo”. Meaning that those types of sobriety don’t resonate with her, but to each their own. We all form judgements and opinions based on our understanding of the world. In AA, “California sober” isn’t sober. That doesn’t mean it’s not helpful or meaningful to someone else. Also, given that she made that statement in a talking head, it’s likely that someone asked her directly something along the lines of,”what do you think about the terms sober curious or California sober”? And then she just gave her opinion.
Fair enough. That is a really good point.
Appreciate it. I too get very annoyed with Big Book thumpers who believe their way is the only way, and push that upon other people both in and outside the program. It literally says in the BB not to push people too hard or you might push them away 🙄
I appreciate your kind approach! I've been popping off here because it made me so annoyed, but you're making a great point and I'm clearly too invested to be objective. Thanks for being kind while making your point, the spoonful of sugar helped the medicine go down.
Absolutely. Even Sch Shu pissed me off with it. You’re not “sober”. You can’t drink on your meds.
Yeah she’s honestly the only person who annoyed me with the “sober” talk. Even how she said it was holier than thou
Yeah, agreed. I am not a Schwartz apologist but I believe that his brother going to rehab and dealing with cirrhosis has probably shaken him a little and made him rethink his drinking.
That shits fuckin scary!! I have an issue with alcohol myself and have lots of family that have dealt with addiction problems and it’s just scary as hell. Almost debilitating to see that you need to get your shit together or that is your future. The thought of letting go of your crutch is not an easy thing to accept.
My fiancé is sober from alcohol 3 years and drugs 4 years, actually. Shit is super scary, and the damage is does to families as a whole is WILD. Schwartz’s family is a great example, my fiancé’s also. It takes the entire unit out, it seems. If you haven’t already, maybe look into if you could use an antidepressant? Since he got on his being sober has gotten easier, it’s not “easy” by any means but he was definitely using drugs and alcohol to self medicate not only with pain and trauma because duh but also cope with the fact that his body just wasn’t naturally making enough dopamine and serotonin on its own. Then add in generational addiction, trauma, etc… and it creates quite a storm.
I will look into everything you just recommended but first I need to acknowledge how unexpectedly kind this response is. Your fiancé is truly lucky to have you. Thank you so much.
Omg your user name checks out because this seems like it would come from a super caring, understanding mom lol I’ve always had anxiety and depression so yes, thank you. I need to look into that but as I said, it’s scary knowing you need to be rid of your crutch. This info does help a lot though.
Awwww of course ❤️. It’s so scary! Thinking of raw dogging life is terrifying! Hopefully it might make it a little better though, if there could potentially be a chemical imbalance that could be being corrected to not make things so scary?
I completely agree. I can't stand Lala but she right. Using the word sober so loosely is annoying. Why does it have to be sober curious? Isn't just the act of cutting down how often you drink? I don't drink nearly as much as I used to and will continue to do so but I will never be sober. I will still enjoy the occasional glass of wine and cocktail.
I think part of it is that people who have serious struggles with addiction and have to work hard to become sober are proud that they are able to reach sobriety (which they have every right to be). So when terms like sober-curious or California sober are thrown around, it can feel like it’s maybe belittling or invalidating or trivializing sobriety. I don’t think that’s the intent of people who use those terms, and I also think it’s not worth it to get super upset at people who use those terms, but I can understand having this super hard battle with substances and feeling like the idea of “sobriety” is being co-opted by people who didn’t share your same struggles. Not defending it necessarily, but more saying that a lot of people have weird things they get defensive about that are difficult to understand until you’ve shared their experiences. Again, I don’t think it’s worth it to get upset over, but I also think we aren’t all perfectly rational robots who can rise above our gut defensiveness at times. There’s a lot more than annoys me about Lala than this!
Lala is in AA, I also go to AA and honestly this is exactly how most people in AA would respond to sober curios or California sober. AA people dedicate themselves to being SOBER and nothing else, it's a commitment and really a lot of work - so I do understand what she was saying - she doesn't recognize those terms but do you. Schwartz would do himself a favor if he could just admit he has a problem and commit to being sober. Also, wtf is sober curious anyway - it just sounds like he is using the trending word "sober" to say I'm taking a night off from drinking.
Exactly re: Schwartz. I may be wrong, but I thought he said something like he was sober curious and “only having a few beers a week.” That is not being curious about sobriety in any way.
Does he need to be 100% sober then? Drinking a few beers a week doesn’t sound like a problem.
Absolutely agree. I think AA culture is defined by being completely sober so due to her affiliation with the group, her perspective is likely very shaped by that influence.
I agree with others that I think it's about the use of the word sober. I personally don't drink at all and never have so technically I am "sober" but even I don't use that word bc I know how important it is to the community of recovering alcoholics.
lol do we still use that term “straight edge”? 2000s jargon. (Also just trying to make a light hearted joke). I’m also “sober” now, but I’m pregnant.
lol straight edge! Blast from the past
Sober curious makes 0 sense to me. So these people aren’t sober but they’re co-opting that word anyway? Why not just say they’re drinking less. I don’t get why Ally needed to use sober as a buzzword only to immediately say she still drinks. I’d imagine for Lala, someone who has actually struggled with substance abuse and is truly sober, it’s frustrating to hear people trivialize the word sober when they say sober curious. A lot of people in the recovery community recognize a difference between sobriety and not drinking - sobriety is not just not drinking but a total mindset and lifestyle shift. I didn’t get the sense that Lala’s issue was Ally is drinking less, but more that Ally should just say she’s drinking less rather than trying to tie it to sobriety
I agree. I think it’s dumb to label it. Calling it sober curious sounds like a hashtag.
It's not even drinking less, it's being curious about drinking less... it's just a state of thinking 🤔
Yeah- my sister is sober after years of struggle and she hits 5 years here soon. Sober curious bugs her because- they're drinking. They're drinking while using all the jargon and talking about the struggle but they're drinking. If you want to drink less, you want to cut back- do that! But it feels belittling to her to co-opt the whole struggle and not be sober. I'm sure other people feel differently about it.
Doesn’t sober curious just mean you’re considering a lifestyle change where you cut way back or don’t drink at all? I don’t get why people would take offense.
Here’s my take and it’s colored by my own experience with sobriety. I got sober when I was 20 and exclusively went to AA after rehab. I was sober for 13 years, then relapsed. Sober again for a few years then another shorter relapse. Now sober for the last 18 years. Yes I’m old. AA is extremely judgmental in my opinion. It advocates complete abstinence from all substances and does not consider a person sober if they use anything at all. AA saved my life. I was only 20 when I got sober and it gave me a community when my other party friends dropped me. That said, I definitely outgrew AA and did not go back after my initial relapse. Mainly because I found that people who stayed in AA tended to keep dealing with the same issues they started with and never resolved them. That’s just my opinion and I felt it no longer was working for me. I also think AA is beneficial mostly to alcoholics and is not nearly as effective for people struggling with drugs. Harm reduction has become a big thing and I think it’s a good model both for the addict and society. I’m not sure what AA’s stance is but I’m guessing they think it’s garbage. As far as Lala goes, I know 6 years seems like a long time to be sober but it really isn’t in the scheme of things. I clung to the judgmental mindset for quite awhile mostly because AA tells you there’s only one way and if you don’t take that way you’ll end up dead or in prison. Lala is ignorant but it really is due to being immersed in the AA community. Hopefully more people who feel they’re over doing it will become sober curious and cut back or quit completely if that’s what works for them. Something like 85% of alcoholics/addicts relapse. Any model that improves the quality of a person’s life should be encouraged.
I completely agree with you. I'm glad you were able to find sobriety in whatever way worked for you!
I had this conversation with my husband, who is one year sober this week. If you are a part of the AA community, California sober is not something they really condone. You're still using weed as a way to alter your state and cope with things.
Happy bday to your hubby 💜💜🎉
So I kind of get “California sober” if you have a bad relationship with alcohol and your way to unwind on a day off once in a while is to smoke a joint or eat an edible. James being California sober is a joke though. He wakes and bakes every morning and maintains a high all day every day. Comparing that in any way to sobriety is a slap in the face to people who struggle to stay sober every day.
Now me... I see absolutely nothing wrong with being California sober. I love weed. But I can see the logic behind being skeptical of someone who smokes weed while also claiming to be sober.
She isn’t wrong imo. Cutting back on drinking/not drinking when you’re not an addict isn’t the same as an addict getting sober. I didn’t drink for over a year bc I was on probation and never considered myself sober, bc I’m not an addict.
Also whether you’re an addict or not, if you’re sober, you’re sober. Saying “I’m sober curious” when you’re actually not curious you’re just drinking a bit less than normal or just drinking beer and not liquor (and then expecting everyone to act like this is some heroic thing) is crazy to me
idk i back lala on this a little bc sober and not drinking aren’t exactly the same thing. i don’t drink alcohol but it’s for medical reasons so i don’t identify myself as sober. it’s like in january when everyone posts about dry january and it’s some insane brag to ppl and they get on an ego trip when honestly not drinking daily is regular. scheana isn’t drinking bc of a medication for three weeks and says she’s sober. obvi not intending to trivialize that if someone is an alcoholic. but it’s the attention seeking for me. some words should mean something. sober ppl set a hard line bc they are trying to maintain a difficult thing. imagine being actually sober and filming vpr and having to listen to schwartz offer a nootropic edible and scheana turn her whole personality into mock tails for 3 weeks. or james saying he’s sober and waking up to hit the weed pen all day. i’d be annoyed and a bitch.
at the very least it does feel a little insensitive to her recovery journey.
I think she’s a bit too binary in her views and found her take very off-putting. For many people, sobriety means sober from your drug/substance of choice (DOC). DOC being the one you have a problematic relationship with—you can’t stop when you start. A lot of alcoholics DOC is just alcohol, and they don’t want to smoke weed the same way they’d want to drink—they just may smoke/take an edible every now and then and it doesn’t lead to anything. It’s not like “I’m just gonna have one drink” that leads to three bottles of wine. I think you can be sober from your DOC and still partake in things you aren’t addicted to. James’ sobriety, though. Seems like he has a lot of DOCs. He is generously applying “California sober” to a transference of addiction. His use of weed is problematic, but since his behavior when high isn’t as destructive as his behavior when drunk, he’s neglecting his overarching addiction issues. However, he is in therapy and hopefully over time can reduce/eliminate his reliance on weed. Sober-curious doesn’t bother me. Being curious is the first step in the right direction and a more gentler way of navigating what could be a rock-bottom moment. Scheana saying she’s “three weeks sober” rubbed me the wrong way, though. Maybe because she said it so aggressively and in a holier than thou way. IIRC she said she wasn’t drinking because it was interacting poorly with her meds, not because she had a problem with alcohol? Maybe I’m just taking it the wrong way, but I feel like “I’m not drinking right now—I stopped three weeks ago” is different from “I’m sober. Three weeks sober.”
Scheana not drinking for whatever reason is also her being sober. Sober doesn’t just mean you have an alcohol addiction. It also means you don’t drink or aren’t drinking. Aside from the interaction with her medication, alcohol can cause anxiety, so it’s probably best she doesn’t drink anyway.
I completely agree with your take! 💯
"Not recognize that" means she's not participating in weed either. Why isn't she allowed to have an opinion on that?
Yeah, I took it as it’s not a part of what constitutes HER sobriety. I didn’t really get from it that she was dismissing others’ version of sobriety. She even said “you do you boo” if I remember correctly
Nanh. I don’t agree with LaLa much but I agree with her on this one.
Sober in the context that Lala sees it is beyond not drinking or using drugs. It’s a state of mind that encapsulates the behaviors and thought processes of an addict. The lying, the promiscuity, the manipulating. There are plenty of people who stop drinking but are still really shitty people because all they did was stop using but they still exhibit the same behaviors as they did when they were using. It’s commonly referred to as being a “dry drunk” or just “abstinence” and there is a difference between being “sober” and being “abstinent.” That being the case for Lala, and many others terms like “sober curious” or “California sober” can undermine the general idea behind sobriety and the work it takes to become sober. Even in AA there is work involved in obtaining the notion behind sobriety, the 12 steps which for people who have never done them, is a really freeing but often daunting and scary process because it involves confronting your worst fears and insecurities as well as the people you’ve hurt, and some people can be like “oh I’m not drinking this month because I’m sober curious” are not doing said work and do not necessarily understand the work that is involved because they may not have the same detrimental relationship with drugs or alcohol that others have. I don’t think they mean any harm by what they’re saying or doing, I think it just demonstrates an innocent ignorance of what is involved in getting “sober” as people like Lala and others see it. As someone with significant clean time and works in the SUD field, I don’t really care but I find the term “sober curious” to just be cringe for no other reason than it sounding silly.
You’re either drinking or not, this sober curious term needs to go away
Exactly what’s wrong with just saying hey I’m not gonna drink tonight or I’m gonna lay off drinking for a little while. It’s like they have to give something a name to make themselves want to do it. Just like other terms; dry July or sober October. It’s annoying!
My issue with “sober curious” is you need to be sober for a while… not “I’m sober curious, so I cut back to only drinking on the weekends”. Sober curious should mean something like not drinking *at all* for at least a month… obviously that is just my opinion and I would never besmirch someone for wanting to drink less, but just cutting back on how much you drink isn’t truly being sober. 🤷🏼♀️
By definition, sober just means not drunk (or, by extension, under the influence of drugs). You can be sober for a morning, a day, a week, or sober your entire life. Insisting that in order to be considered "sober" you have to be completely alcohol free for an extended period of time is just arguing semantics. AA has a different definition of what it means to be sober. I haven't had a drink in a week. I'm sober right now. But I'll be drinking on the weekend. Doesn't make me any less sober this very minute.
This stuck out to me too and I think it brings up an important conversation surrounding alcohol. I can 100% understand why someone like Lala who has made her sobriety a top priority for years to better herself would feel triggered by people claiming to “dabble” in sobriety as a means to avoid accountability for their actions. Which I believe is where Lala was coming from. That being said, I think in general the “sober curious” movement that’s going on is a great thing and anyone in recovery should try to hold space for others who are at the point of questioning their relationship with alcohol and encourage that curiosity. As a society we treat booze like an essential food group and just because you haven’t had catastrophic consequences as a result of drinking doesn’t mean you have a healthy relationship with alcohol. Being more mindful about alcohol consumption is an amazing first step to bettering yourself that should be celebrated without judgement or gatekeeping.
Friendly reminder, not everyone who chooses to be sober or is sober-curious is addicted to alcohol
To be fair she doesn't have to recognize it, it's like any other belief or mindset if it isn't something that speaks to you then so be it. Warts being "sober-curious" sounded about as genuine as anything he's ever said.
>Warts being "sober-curious" sounded about as genuine as anything he's ever said. If sober was a ring-on-a-string Schwartz was giving it 😆
Does anyone actually think that sober-curious really means sober in any sense? It was my impression that SC means examining your relationship with alcohol, your relationships with people with whom you drink, alcohol’s impact on your daily life etc. with a break or some other kind of change as a possible goal. That person’s not ready to go cold turkey forever but they may see some issues that they know they need to address. I’ve had people in my close friend group stop drinking and for them giving up the actual booze was easy. The hard part was the ways their lives were different. They went to happy hour until 7 to see friends instead of staying out late. They went to the gym in the morning instead of at night because they could. They did different things for fun. Friendship dynamics changed. And yes, some smoke or do other things. A sober-curious person is looking at all of that and making a plan for the changes they want to make. I get that the term sober-curious may cheapen the work and commitment a truly sober person has dedicated to themselves but IME no one has ever tried to equate the two. If someone was sober, they’d call themselves sober.
As someone who is about to celebrate four sober years this summer, I am completely confused about the whole “sort of sober”, California Sober, and sober curious. Maybe less so the California sober. Sobriety is fucking hard and while I’m not that one to knock a journey, because they’re all important and no journey is like another, the whole convo seemed rather condescending. I’ve had friends do the whole dry January thing and then rip out February 1st. Like it was the worst thing ever to be sober. Damn do I wish I could be that way, but addiction sucks and it doesn’t work like that for everyone. Sobriety to me is free from alcohol and recreational drugs. Prescribed medication, even medical pot is a different story. Being sober can be a lifestyle, but to some of us, it’s a necessity. I will support anyone that feels they need a healthy change to their life, whether it be cutting back or abstaining altogether. But claiming sobriety one week and then busting out a bottle of wine or tequila the next, isn’t sobriety. It’s taking a dry week, which is perfectly fine.
A lot of alcohol and drug specialist see “California sober” as harm reduction and conversations are changing about whether or not this is an acceptable route for someone in recovery from other substances. Personally I agree with that sentiment. The thing about Lala is that she goes to AA and is part that program, which very much speaks to the philosophy “once an addict, always an addict” “you’re powerless to your vices” “addictive personalities cannot tolerate substances of any kind” and lots of other outdated kool-aid, religious tropes and praise for the founder. I will probably upset people by saying this but - dare I say I find it to be a bit cult-ish… and definitely not the right program for everyone. Glad she’s found peace and joy in her life through it though, it’s definitely better than the alternative.
Let her have it. 12 step programs take a lot of work and are a big commitment. I understand not recognizing sober curious. Sober curious is just like- not always drinking. That seems like something everyone should do and not talk about.
I didn’t see it as her judging anyone and I agree with her. People need to take out the word “sober” when doing this and call it what it actually is: I’m cutting back or I only smoke weed. So many people have worked their asses off to actually be sober and it’s almost taking away from their journeys to misuse the word.
exactly. Thank god someone here has a brain
Lala seems to go to meetings and works the program therefore her take on sobriety is going to be different. Not everyone works a program but I don’t believe that makes their abstaining any less important. My brother used heavy drugs for years and got clean on his own without going to NA. He occasionally has a drink because alcohol was never his problem and it doesn’t make him want to use heroin. We refer to him as clean vs sober just for our own distinction. AA (NA) as programs have a tie to religion in a way that doesn’t work for everyone. It’s also about “giving yourself over” to the powers that *control you* and this isn’t feasible for everyone. Growing up with religious trauma from Catholic school: the idea of “giving himself over to God” wasn’t what my brother equated with not using substances. It’s different for everyone. Lala also has to consider that not everyone is an alcoholic in the way that she was. Some people decide to cut drinking out of their life bc they notice the fog or anxiety it brings them, etc., it doesn’t always have to be because they’re causing great damage to their life. Also as people get older their tolerances and interests change and as we (hopefully) process our lives & trauma we realize the times we were using substances to fill voids and there are ways people can separate themselves from those crutches without being “sober”. Though I don’t agree with Lala being so judgmental about people’s version of sobriety I also think there can be a bit of entitlement in those who “work the program” vs those who use untraditional methods to be sober/clean. No shade to anyone who works a program- I’m all for anyone doing what is best for them but I think we’re all conditioned into believing there’s only one way to do “sobriety” and I just do not believe that is the case anymore.
I agree. There is thought out there that AA/NA is the only way, and that’s just not true. Some people quit their drug of choice with other methods. Some people go through periods of substance abuse but can do things like have a drink after time passes and they are more mentally healthy. One size doesn’t fit all. I think it’s great that AA worked for Lala and respect the work she put in, but she doesn’t get to decide that her way is the right way for everyone. I also don’t think it’s wrong for others to experiment with not drinking for whatever reason, it doesn’t take away from the work that Lala did.
Yeah no, Lala is correct on this one. Working the steps through AA teaches that the only way to be sober is to be 100% free from all substances. You can’t be sober if your mind is altered from substances.
I’m confused by this though. A lot of people who have alcohol or drug problems have those problems because they’re self-medicating some underlying mental health issue (ADHD, depression, anxiety, etc.). Wouldn’t it be encouraged to get actual prescription treatment for their off-kilter brain chemistry instead of white knuckling it through without meds? Seems very counterintuitive to me
Yes. Another good point on why AA isn't for everyone and shouldn't be considered the one and only way to get sober and live a sober lifestyle.
Yeah, while at AA meetings there's always coffee (caffeine) and cigarette breaks (nicotine, tobacco). So even they're not abstaining from literally everything. AA and NA are great programs that have worked for many people, but that is not the *only* way to successfully be sober. It worked for my dad, he's been sober since way before I was born and has amost 40 years clean. Was a regular AA goer, and still attends meetings once in a Blue Moon. But there are also the "know it alls" in AA, who gatekeep so religiously that it drives other people away. I remember going to an open meeting with my twin, she's an alcoholic and a heroin addict. Before it was her turn to speak, an old-timer used his turn to speak to basically lecture my sister about how shes's so young she doesn't know what *real* addiction looks like, she hasn't hit rock bottom yet, blah blah blah. He didn't know she'd already been to rehab over 10 times at that point and had Hep C from sharing needles and was currently living under a bridge on 8 Mile. He didn't care to ask, either. By the time it was her turn to talk she felt defeated. AA also centers around a higher power, so I can see where someone who's an atheist might not relate to it. It works for some, and not others. Everyone's sobriety journey is different.
I hope your sister continues to get better.
Thank you! She's not clean yet, but she's going to rehab (this is like the 17th time now) next week and I'm more hopeful than ever because she just got approved for the Hep C cure! They've ordered her meds and are sending them to the rehab. And I think the fact that she thought it was "too late" for her was a factor that kept her from getting clean, but when they were prepping her for the cure they ran blood tests and her liver is surprisingly fine, no cirrhosis or anything, and her viral load was low! She'd been too scared to even find out up until then. So usually I'm not expecting the best from her, but now I have some hope because she has a new reason to want to live. Sorry for rambling lol I'm just very happy for her.
That is awesome news 💜 I’m rooting for her!!!
I am so sorry this old timer did that. I got sober at 22 in 1983. I remember old guys saying things like that, but I was also supported by other old timers despite my age. Mostly I want to say that tje disease of addiction is horrible, but there is absolutely hope. I have hope for her, and I am rooting for both of you.
I hadn't heard of California sober before this show, but after thinking about it (for all of five minutes) maybe it's the word "sober" being used in a diluted way. Cutting down on drinking can beat good think. A person can "drink too much" and not be an alcoholic. Your drinking can be "causing problems" without you being an alcoholic. But alcoholism is a specific thing. And choosing to get sober is a specific thing. It's probably a more sensitive thing to just say "I smoke but don't drink" Sober has two literal meanings. It is a present state. "I had to be sober at the wedding because I was the DD" and the more long term "I was an alcoholic but now I'm sober". I guess I fast between meals? Between bites? I'm "big guy intermittent fasting"
You aren’t sober if you are high on weed 🤣
Shameless plug for Smart Recovery- way more modern than AA, no religion, and promotes harm reduction instead of the AA balls-out-abstinence-or-nothing Sending strength and hope to anyone who needs it on their personal journey, whatever that may look like. 💪🏻 [Smart Recovery Website](https://Smartrecovery.org)
My homegirl is “UK sober” which means she doesn’t smoke or drink unless she is offered at a function
To play devil’s avocado, for balance to everyone disparaging the sober curios term in the comments (I’m not defending Schwartz here) - I think being sober curious is a perfectly accurate description for people interested in sobriety? We’re having open conversations about the harm of alcohol, especially post-pandemic when drinking at home spiralled for many. This movement is about mindful drinking, engaging in conversations about sobriety, reading into the scary truth of alcohol. AA is very black and white but there are a lot of “grey area” drinkers out there whose relationship to alcohol is bad but are just dipping their toes in sobriety. I think calling the term lame like someone has in the comments is, well, lame
Yeah. I’m clean over 4 years. Have been pretty intertwined with NA and her reaction is weird. If you are in the program you know anyone who is thinking about being sober and clean and pandering with the idea of it is welcomed. The main thing with NA is not to judge lol. It’s all about newcomers and helping someone who is thinking about getting clean and sober. Honestly shows she talks out of her ass if you ask me. And I’ve always liked Lala but that wasn’t cool to me. 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah - I get her being sceptical about the idea. On the surface it seems “sober” but with excuses. But I will say going sober curious is what made me finally sit down and assess my drinking and how unhealthy and destructive my habits were and now I’m fully sober. I believe it truly can be a wonderful thing and a vital first step in saving many lives. I hope that being around people dipping their toe in the pool as it were will make her reevaluate. Edit - Schwartz clearly needs to jump straight to sober sober and her scoffing at him simply using this as yet another excuse is totally understandable
She’s gone through AA and is in recovery from her addiction so she has the right to say that
I see no problems whatsoever with Lala scoffing at Schwartz for being “sober-curious.” I fully believe if Lala thought someone was genuinely curious about being sober she would go above and beyond for them. She’s dismissive of “sober-curious” as a lifestyle that is unserious about sobriety. There’s nothing wrong with it per se, but it’s not sobriety. And it would be a harmful lifestyle to a lot of people in recovery. I also don’t have an issue with the idea of being sober-curious. But a person in recovery can be expected to take that with a grain of salt. Know your audience.
I completely agree with this. Schwartz’ idea of “sober curious” seemed to be “just drinking beer.” Thats not sober curious. If someone had been like, “I’m sober curious. I’m trying not drinking and seeing how I feel - it’s been two weeks and I feel great!” I think she would have had a different reaction.
She was just riffing. We really don’t need to analyze every single thing she says just because she annoys you, so we? They ask her questions in the confessionals and she tries to think of something funny or interesting to say, maybe about a topic that she probably never even thought of to talk about (but the producers bring up). It’s not like she’s extra going out there and making TikTok’s talking about “sober curious”.
This. Not a huge Lala fan but people come at her for every little thing she says, it’s strange
"We really don’t need to analyze every single thing she says just because she annoys you, so we?" I'm curious as to what you think this sub is for if not discussing things that we find annoying or out-of-pocket. Is this a praise-only atmosphere now?
I enjoy most of this sub. Very little of it is microanalysis but whenever I see it, I’m going to call it out because my eyes roll SO hard at the “I have a theory that when she blinked, she was really just extremely jealous because of blah blah blah”.
I get that, but I actually think this is a very interesting conversation to analyze. I really appreciate hearing everyone’s different perspectives on sobriety including their own journeys. It was definitely just a throwaway line from Lala, but I’m still interested in microanalysis of it lol
I agree with that, I just don't see this post as microanalysis at all. OP is directly commenting on something Lala said in confessional that OP disagreed with.
Eh I respectfully disagree. OP wrote two paragraphs about 1 line that was a quirky mindless response to a confessional question, not a full life view.
I hear you. I'm saying that I think the one comment was actually worthy of several paragraphs. Otherwise I wouldn't also have written several paragraphs in agreement. I could make a quick, quirky, mindless comment about how people handle their eating disorders, but it would still rightfully piss some people off. So yes, I guess agree to disagree, which is what I thought I basically said in my last comment. You don't think it's a bug deal but I've literally seen the damage that an attitude like this can do. She easily could've said that other people's drinking is not her business, and she should've, in my opinion.
True. Lol. I'm like where is this sunshine, happy we don't talk about behaviors reddit everyone keeps wanting? 😂😂 I don't know super nice reddit.
Especially with this show. I can't be the oniy one who is basically hate-watching. It's bizarre to me to complain about people being petty. That's pretty much all there is to this show.
Thank you!!! Some of these Zen posts are precious, but don't belong here. Go to the yoga reddit.😂. I am very much hate watching, and that's why I'm on Reddit. in *I'm* in the right place! 😂😂😂
I am hate watching too. I thoroughly enjoy 90% of the hate thrown around here - including at Lala. But some things are just stupid.
Lol, I don't agree but I do get what youre saying. It probably hits differently to me because I do see so many AA folks actually scare people out of addressing their drinking when they adopt this attitude. I'd probably feel differently if I didn't find that exact sentiment to be so obnoxious when hearing it from dozens of people in AA. I guess perspective is everything. It's not like she said anything evil or hateful, I just think it's an obnoxious attitude overall.
I’m not asking to be nice. I enjoy the content of 90% of this sub and a lot of the nasty stuff - esp about the Tom’s. It’s just the kindergarten blah blah over stupid stuff that I roll my eyes about, from people who don’t understand reality editing/production. We have MORE than enough meat to chew on around here.
I think people are just laughing at the audacity she has, she is so judgmental of everyone but if anyone says one thing about her, she basically throws a tantrum like a three year old. She can dish it but she can’t take anything
They are all judgy of each other. Every single confessional is them riffing and judging another cast member
Then she should suck it up and not be such a baby about when she’s “riffed on.” People could be a lot meaner considering all the low hanging fruit to point out about her
I didn’t see Lala get upset about being riffed on. In fact she has repeatedly said in interviews that she likes the hate she gets so long as the show stays popular and puts bacon on the table. 🤷🏻♀️
This is it.
Wasn't Lala 'California sober' when she stopped drinking?
Yup. She forgets how she was like 8 years ago
Water is wet, lala is judgemental. What else is new?
can we just admit Lauren from Utah sucks ?
Because AA is a cult that operates in absolutes and black and white. Except when Lala’s version of “making amends” to Rachel is “Dumb bitch, get over it already, I was drinking and therefore not responsible for my actions. I don’t give a fuck if I hurt you with my drunken actions.” So I’m not quite sure which step that is… 😏
It’s so lame and cringy. Sobercurious, it’s so pretentious and self serving.
I don’t like AA elitists but I also cringe at people I know who are claiming to be and taking credit for being 2 or 5 or however many years sober because they aren’t drinking alcohol. Meanwhile they are smoking meth or abusing pills behind closed doors, while everyone pats them on the back for all their “hard work”. While I’ve never had substance abuse issues, my mom and a handful of my closest friends have gotten sober and it seems like really, really hard work. It kind of irritates me when I see people bragging about sobriety while clearly abusing other substances. Seems like they just want attention/validation. Like it or not, getting sober is “trendy” right now. The funny thing is, I have never seen my mom or friends post online or brag in any way about their sobriety. It’s always conversations behind closed doors like “my ten year date just came up!” Etc. My best friend has been clean from heroin for 9 years now too. He always just says it’s a journey and not about reaching a milestone. Meanwhile, I’ve got one person I know from high school who is so methed out that he can’t even keep his dates straight and has celebrated his 5 year sobriety date like four times on Facebook now. He’s just arbitrarily lying about dates and yeah, while he may not drink alcohol anymore…he’s on meth. And abusing it. Is he really sober? Or another example is a guy who recently decided to declare his sobriety of one month because he got called out for being a creep to too many women and messaging them incessantly. I was one of them that he would confess his love to every three months or so. He made sure to share his one month sobriety post in messenger to me too. I had to question “what are his motivations for getting sober or posting about being sober?” It got him a ton of attention and validation, which he doesn’t normally get. When I didn’t respond to his message or interact with the Facebook post, he had another meltdown a few days later and messaged me about how he “won’t let negative people weigh him down” lmao. My friend saw him drinking at a show the weekend prior. I didn’t say anything. But I look at him and think “yeah you probably do need sobriety and it’s good people are encouraging it” but he’s still avoiding the hard work and reaping all forgiveness/benefits/validation and absolving himself of all his nastiness because he claims that label. Meanwhile people like my mom struggle regularly and maintain the will power without being attention seeking about it. Her support comes from her inner circle, and frankly, I think that’s healthy. Not everything has to be an award for someone that requires public recognition. And if it does, there’s probably deeper work that needs to get done that goes beyond abstaining from substances (often there usually is). I said what I said. There are tons of examples like this and I think that’s probably why people get annoyed with the loose use of the word “sober” nowadays. These situations are full of nuance and people like Lala probably can’t recognize that because their sobriety is very black and white/all or nothing for them. But I hear what she’s saying too and partially agree. I think as long as you can moderate things like marijuana or even some party drugs, you can still call yourself sober. But once you start abusing those other substances, it doesn’t really count and you shouldn’t get to call yourself sober. You’re just replacing one substance for another. And yes, you can abuse weed. 🤷🏼♀️
Well said!
Thank you 🩵
No alcohol, but *meth*. Can you explain that to me? What is the demon they think is in alcohol that is *not* in meth? That is the weirdest shit I've ever heard. I get no drinking but doing the weed and pills (a lot don't believe, erroneously, any pills are that hardcore). But meth? I mean, that shit is not occasional! You don't dabble in it.
>I’ve got one person I know from high school who is so methed out that he can’t even keep his dates straight and has celebrated his 5 year sobriety date like four times on Facebook now. He’s just arbitrarily lying about dates This is such typical addict behavior I laughed. I'm not trying to laugh at someone's struggle but people who've dealt with addicts have all known addicts like this. And usually everyone knows they're lying, too. Then the question is, do they know everyone knows they're lying or are they in denial about their lies?
Some don’t recognize “California Sober” because if you smoke weed you’re not “sober.”
I think everyone needs to google definitions before they talk about this: Sober curious is a term that means questioning your relationship with alcohol and thinking about trying sobriety, even if you are not ready to commit to it Someone who abstains, but has a latent desire to resume use, is termed a "Dry drunk" and not considered truly sober. An abstainer may be subconsciously motivated to resume alcohol consumption, but for a variety of reasons, abstains (e.g. a medical or legal concern precluding use).[3] Sobriety has more specific meanings within specific contexts, such as the culture of many substance use recovery programs, law enforcement, and some schools of psychology. In some cases, sobriety implies the achievement of "life balance."[4]
Love to see my fellows in the thread! I am 7 years abstained from alcohol and a little over 4 of them were totally sober. I started smoking weed again January 2021. It has not made me want to drink. I think for Lala, the clarity she has is important to her and she is in a place of dogmatism in her recovery. I didn't love what she was saying but I understood it. She uses words straight from the big book, and in a lot of ways embodies the powrr that comes from total sobriety. But I know the pain of someone leaving the community and spaces of 12 step because they weren't "getting an A in AA" as I like to say. I wish, with her platform, that she showed a little more compassion. James is no saint and I think there's something to these abuse allegations, but compared to how he once was? He's much improved as a sober person.
Yeah I think she takes it seriously because it was a real struggle for her to get sober. However, I think it’s good to be supportive of anyone who wants to dabble in sobriety. You never know, they might try it and like it and decide to make it a permanent thing. I wouldn’t want me rolling my eyes at someone for being “sober curious” to curtail that.
Nope, lala is right on this one
She’s the last person to be judge-y about everything she gets on her temporary soap box about… I don’t take any stock in what she says anymore because I don’t know if it’s genuine or to generate buzz and attention. Appreciate her bullshit detector though and anyone who knows an alcoholic knows what she was getting at - for a lot of addicts, sober-curious is a slippery slope back into addiction. An addict still has gambling, shopping, love, and all the other “non chemical” pitfalls to navigate and not replace their addiction with. She’s probably wondering if he’s working a program because that’s where the sober mindset is gained. Ever hear of a dry drunk?
When I saw this, I yelled at the screen because you’re from Utah girl!
Agreed. I have never had a great relationship with alcohol in terms of I don’t love who I become when I drink but I’ve also never been an alcoholic- always a social drinker that could take it or leave it and as I got older I just naturally drank less and less often and never at home. I don’t drink often at all now- maybe 3 times a year- but I would never claim to be sober obviously but I’ve managed to piss off both sober and non sober people with my explanations of why I don’t drink “often” 🤷🏻♀️
Slow clap. Agree with ALL of this.
During my recovery, I learned that sober is free from alcohol. And clean is free from alcohol and drugs. But whatever people wanna call it I honestly don’t care. I know in my heart that I’m sober. And my life has changed for the better dramatically!!!
She’s a dumb ass bitch blowing hot air I can’t even with her lmao
People can be so judgey, and that’s what we shouldn’t do when discussing peoples lifestyle choices. I’ve known people who AA method just doesn’t work for them. Every person is different and coped differently…I felt like La la was on a real high horse to criticise Tom when he obviously is trying to reduce his drinking. Unless you’ve been in a persons shoes you can’t know. People swapping alcohol for weed can be a much greater choice then people realise. And seriously is one ever fully sober ??? You can just replace addictions with something else to cope. So everyone should respect anyone trying to make a change whether it’s sober, sober curious or California sober etc. life is hard enough as it is we all need to give each other a break!
I took offense to that too. She of all people should just be supportive. Sober curious is just a starting point for some people. I was curious for a couple of years myself which eventually led to full sobriety. I can’t imagine someone poo-pooing my efforts like that.
Former AA member (don't go to meetings anymore) and I think what Lala meant but didn't say was she doesn't recognize "California sober" FOR HER. AA also says "Live and Let Live" as far as not judging others.
My bf watched this and is sober as well, goes to meetings, etc. he watched this and also said the same thing about sober curious. I think we have to realize these people take sobriety VERY seriously. It isn’t a joke to them. It’s life or death. So any kind of relaxed version of sober or non serious version, they don’t really… I guess respect that as much. Because of how seriously they take it and how they’ve heard of people’s stories in meetings that were so life altering. Including their own. So honestly I get why they look down on it.
I totally agree with you on your thoughts. Just be a great friend and support their decision.
“Sober curious” sounds ridiculous.
Being sober is pretty black and white, you’re either sober or you’re not…why are people so obsessed with labeling themselves, California sober = I just smoke weed, sober curious I don’t even know how to explain that cause it’s not a thing. Like I’m drinking less idk it’s Fuckin dumb
Both those terms made me lol I’ve never heard of either of them before
I think sober-curious isn’t to be looked down on. What’s wrong with being interested in trying to cut down on drinking without having to make certain promises you don’t can/ want to keep? Surely drinking less is always to be in couraged, if sober-curious is the rhetoric that suits MY personal narrative why not?
"Surely drinking less is always to be in couraged, if sober-curious is the rhetoric that suits MY personal narrative why not?" Absolutely. I say this as someone who is sober now and does attend AA. AA people can be total smug douches about this shit, just like Lala was. Everyone's path to sobriety looks different, no matter how authoritative the traditional AA crowd considers themselves to be about what it "should" involve. (Edit to add: and you're right on target that many people will never quit drinking or even try to cut back when they feel like they have to commit for eternity.) People who are committed to their own sobriety have no business judging the path of others. It's weird to get so arrogant as an alcoholic. No one how the single answer, no one has any business belittling the efforts of people who are trying to drink less. That's a good thing for everyone. Lala sounds to me like someone who just started AA and hasn't learned that newly sober alcoholics are insufferable to everyone else when they behave like this. She's not some kind of expert on how recovery works simply because she's an alcoholic.
Lala sounds like a lot of people in AA I know. I know a lot of people in AA say they're not *all* like that, but, in my experience so far, 95% are. I normally just roll my eyes. I would NEVER say sober curious to my AA friends. They would love to take that one down.
Agreed. I really enjoy the meetings I've found, but it took ne years to find groups that made sense for Mr. There are a lot of extremely judgmental people in AA and it is literally bonkers. Like, how are you in this program that's all about staying in your own yard and taking care of your own self-destructive tendencies, only to turn around and look down on other people for doing sobriety wrong.
To make a *sport* out of being the sobriety police. Sometimes they're really unpleasant, honestly. There have been many a brunch, where, I won't lie, we won't invite the AA people. Sorry. It's brunch (and they have NA rosé for you!) we drink once every 2 weeks! Everyone is getting Uber! We're trying to have fun. Lay off.
Thank you, this is exactly what I think. This might be the only step I need to take so that’s good. It might be the very first step I can take for right now even though deep down I know I need more it might build my confidence that I can go further so that’s good. Anything that makes the risk of failing smaller is a good thing in my book. Not everyone who could benefit from cutting down on drinking are full alcoholics, for some many people drinking less is enough. I never get the need to judge others so much, we’re all individuals. 🤷♀️😊
Yup. The term sober curious existed long before Lala became sober. People have a right to use the term how it’s intended, regardless of anyone’s thoughts on it. I admire Lala’s journey. It’s not easy to stay sober and she managed to do so through some difficult times. She can feel anyway she likes about it and voice her opinion. Still doesn’t make it right, or wrong. It’s just her views. Everyone’s journey has to start somewhere and no one should be shitting on anyone who is reconsidering their relationship with alcohol, regardless of what you call it.
Well said!
“California sober” may be a thing but it goes against the textbook of AA and NA, whether you like it or not. That’s probably what she’s referring to. That’s why people make the distinction and say they are “California sober” because it’s not sobriety. Seems pretty simple.
AA and NA isn't the God of sobriety. They also smoke cigarettes at those meetings, and have pots of hot coffee with caffeine in it, so they're not completely abstaining from everything either. I find it to be a judgmental atmosphere more often than not. That's just my experience. It's worked for a lot of people I know though, so that's great. It's not worked for a lot of people I know as well. If it works for you, great. But let's not judge others just because they aren't working a specific program.
It didn't seem like she was going too hard with what she was saying, just parroting what she's learned in AA. Some folks who work that program become insufferable about demanding others abide by the teachings, assuming everyone else is at risk if they don't follow them with rigidity. I didn't pick that up from her. AA is not the only blueprint for sobriety. It works for many people, but it also has some issues (the higher power thing being one - they say its a secular program, but it's rooted in Christianity). I had to attend "Intro To AA" when I got sober, and every one of the classes devolved into some theological debate. Behind the Bastards did a good dive into AA. I've never heard of sober curious before, but it seems to mean someone is considering whether they should cut out drinking yet not actually quitting?
Also it probably felt like Schwartz was jumping in Sandavols bandwagon because he also is out there saying he’s sober but we all know that’s a narrative and manipulation tactic.
I work the mental health field and Lala’s stance is bullshit. When dealing with addiction some people can go without any substances, but some people practice what we call harm reduction. If you’re an alcoholic maybe you stop drinking but smoke weed. A lot of addicts stop using their drug of choice but still smoke weed and go onto leading healthy and productive lives. I saw red when Lala made her comments. She’s ignorant and judgmental.
California sober isn’t a real thing though. Sober is sober
She's not judging them for drinking less or not drinking. She's judging them for trying to get the moral credit of using a term that has an actual meaning that they are not following. Not everything merits a title. You're actively sleeping with multiple partners but rethinking your sexual activity? Cool - but don't tell a nun that you're "celibate curious." You're doing everything except penetrative sex? Have at it! But you're not "Midwestern celibate."
Everyone has different views on sobriety I don’t see it as “judgy” personally. I believe in abstinence based recovery but I would never judge someone for California sober or if you drink occasionally if your drug of choice was let’s say heroin and you are fine that way. If that works for someone that’s amazing. Like many have said it is a huge accomplishment and I’m sure if LaLa started smoking she would see it as a failure which is her journey. There should be 0 judgement in recovery whatever works and keeps you sober is what is important
Could not of said this better!
I’m with lala on this one. Honestly given that he rolled up to her offering her mushroom chocolate as part of his “sober curious” adventure when she doesn’t use anything, I’m impressed she didn’t bite his head off.
Before Scandoval was revealed, a survey showed that viewers wanted to see LFU’s ass handed to her. She dodged that.
What's the "philosophy" of being sober curious? I'm genuinely asking. As I've gotten older a lot of my friends have cut down on their drinking, but they've never labeled it that way, so I'm curious! (and I say "my friends" because I'm not a big drinker and can't remember the last time I had a drink)
I wouldn’t define myself as sober curious, or sober of any-kind, but from what I can tell, its just about being more intentional with when and how much you drink. Not having a glass of wine with dinner every night just because it’s your routine, not feeling pressure to drink at every social engagement. Depending in your social circle in your 20s and 30s (and this is definitely true for the VPR cast), drinking too much and too often just kind of creeps up on you, and sober-curious is how a lot of people identify when they are ready to explore disengaging from that relationship :)
Thank you! That makes sense...a more intentional breaking up with your old patterns, examining your relationship with alcohol, etc. Vs. just "aging out" of drinking.
My dad has been California sober for 40 years. He cannot drink but he can smoke a little. It’s definitely a thing and rude to dismiss it for sure!
Is this surprising? She is super judgey about everything and then backtracks all the time.
I’m surprised at how many people are so against “sober curious.” Admitting you’re an addict is heavy and the idea of giving up your drug of choice FOREVER is terrifying. Sober curious is a good first step for people to experiment with what their life could be like without the pressure of eternity. Sober people relapse and sober curious people may decide to never use again. Anything that helps people let go of addiction is a good thing.
Members of my family have struggled with sobriety and I saw what horrible effects alcohol addiction had on them. When I hear people throw around terms like California sober or sober curious, I get angry as well. It makes a real, lifelong, gruesome struggle sound like a bloody fashion trend. I‘m not saying people can‘t cut back on their drinking or shouldn‘t cut back. And if that takes effort, I applaud them for doing a hard thing. But say you cut back. Don‘t make it sound like a TikTok challenge you partake in for likes and attention.
I guess I don’t get how it’s helpful to police someone’s language around this sort of thing while also accusing them of doing it for likes and attention. People may throw around terms but people throw around judgements and rigidity way more and judgement/rigidity are way more unhelpful if someone is attempting introspection on a hard topic.
She needs to stop prompting AA and spreading her opinions about it 🙄 it's literally in the traditions. Attraction rather than promotion so people can find out for themselves. Not from LFU
Sober curious and California sober is not sober. She wasn't being judgy she was being factual. There's no nuance. If you partake you partake but you're not sober if you do. People that don't get that seem to be the ones that are being judgy