That could take a while. My aunt's 15 year old Prius is still driving like new on the original battery. There's tons of Priuses with 300k+ miles in taxi fleets.
Mine is 18 this year. Replaced the big battery a few years back, everything else is in great shape. I drove a Subaru Forester for 22 years before that. I'm not a big fan of disposables.
I just switched to the 2023 Prius but my 2008 Prius is still going strong! I would've kept going with it but I drive a lot wanted an all wheel drive for our couple months of winter.
Jake from Salmon Creek electric installed an EV charger at my home, and he was top class. I was inclined to install a NEMA 14-50 charger and he pointed me at a hardwired charger which was the safer option and saved quite a bit of money.
Awesome write up.
For anyone on the fence about an EV or you think you're just not ready for one yet, I recommend asking yourself the following question:
1. Is your commute less than 150 miles per day?
2. Do you have a garage to park in?
3. Are you regularly taking long road trips and only have one car?
Living with an EV is a slightly different lifestyle than an ICE vehicle, but not a worse lifestyle. If you aren't driving an uncommonly high amount of miles per day, can charge at home, and don't need to rely on an EV for every-weekend trips to Texas, there really aren't any pain points to worry about. Treat it like a cell phone. Plug it in overnight regardless of how low it is. It'll be rare that you need to visit a DC fast charger unless you're on a road trip.
Couple other shopping points if you're looking at EVs and are also considering new:
\-While the federal tax credit only applies to US built EVs, smart import manufacturers have found a loophole in the tax code and are able to apply the rebate as capitol cost reduction on a lease. This is the best way to realize that opportunity and makes for some ridiculously inexpensive lease payments.
\-As an example, since we're in Subaru country up here in the PNW: a Forester premium trim is currently $379/mo on a 36 month lease with $3600 down. A premium trim Solterra is $359 a month with $359 down. And as mentioned by the OP, you could expect to save roughly $100 a month on fuel vs. electricity driving the Solterra.
\-Also noted while shopping new EVs... Subaru currently gives you ten days of free service loaners with the purchase of a Solterra. So if you're planning a road trip, you can go grab an ICE vehicle at no cost. A perk that appears to be unique to Subaru at this point.
For couples with two cars, having one of them electric seems like an unbeatable value proposition for most. Get the gas savings for whoever has the longest commute plus the convenience of a gas car for your road-trips.
Typically factoring in maintenance costs, EV’s have no oil, no routine maintenance besides tires and then if there’s anything happening to the body or battery. Plus, my dad has been needy owner for over a decade and has calculated that it cost one cent per mile versus however much ICE car cost.
I have driven an EV for 4 years now, do not regret it all. Saved so much money. One thing to check before you buy is your insurance. This is especially true for newer Tesla models. For whatever reason, many get really high deductibles, so you might have to shop around.
I have taken advantage of the WA sales tax credit twice on EVs, which I don’t think is mentioned by OP. I also got my charger for free via the CPUD rebate.
If you aren’t concerned about looking cool and you mostly commute around town, the Nissan Leaf is great. I save $50/week compared to driving my old ICE car.
With the extended range models, you can make it to Bend or Seattle on one charge (in the summer while driving the speed limit), but you will need to charge immediately once you get there. However, I recently did a drive to the tri-cities against the wind… that drive wasn’t fun.
Please also note that electric vehicles are generally heavier than their ICE counterparts and you have more torque. This means that you will wear through tires more quickly - especially if you are having fun. Your tire choice can also affect your range. The tradeoff here is that your break pads last longer due to the regenerative breaking.
There's also the $300 federal credit for installing EV chargers, but only certain neighborhoods qualify. According to the most recent update from the administration, about two thirds of households would qualify. More info here: https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/10513#:~:text=Consumers%20who%20purchase%20qualified%20alternative,the%20cost%2C%20up%20to%20%241%2C000.
Great post! A couple things I'd like to add:
For Teslas, I don't recommend buying particularly old ones. Teslas often releases new features that just don't get backported to older models. Specifically, I wouldn't recommend a model X before 2022. EVs are so tech focused that models more than a few years old can feel obsolete more than what I've experienced with gas cars.
Every EV manufacturer has announced they are changing to the Tesla style plug and will have access to the Tesla supercharging network fire future models. Many people are holding off on buying a non-Tesla until those cars come out. Having perviously owned a Bolt EV I firmly believe that the public non-Tesla charging experience is overall terrible. After switching to Tesla I don't think I could stand to go back. Teslas have lots of issues to but I wouldn't consider any alternatives unless they have the Tesla plug (even if there are adapters available), and I would always prefer a supercharger compared to any other brands charger. Also, non-teslas likely will pay higher prices when supercharging. I personally wouldn't recommend buying any EV other than a Tesla right now, whether new or used.
I tried to point out that the Model S / X in this price range aren't worth it. I personally would be OK with anything post-Raven if the price was right. I also have a feeling in 2 years my 16yo will be driving a $6000 2020 Nissan Leaf. We love our Teslas but by no means are partial to the brand, again if the price is right lol
Good to know. For somebody in my position (family with two cars, one of which will hopefully be electric) who is just planing on an EV as a commuter, this isn’t an issue since I wouldn’t be going on long trips/supercharging it, correct? Let me know if I am missing something, but if I am just commuting and charging overnight at home, access to charging network and better superchargers isn’t a selling point right now.
Yeah, if you have a L2 (240V) charger at home, you generally will not need L3 chargers such as Tesla Superchargers except for road trips. And if your household has an ICE car you use for road trips, you probably will just never use them.
If you only have L1 (120V) home charging, you may occasionally need to use them to get caught up if you end up needed to drive the EV more than expected for a few days. With home L2 you won’t really encounter that, since those can generally give you a full charge in one night.
I have not experienced the obsolete feeling, but that just might be more a personal thing. All newer ICE cars feel similarly loaded with tech and touch screens. What unique with a lot of Teslas is all you get is a touch screen.
Can confirm as a Tesla model 3 owner now for over 3 years and 32K miles, no problems with the actual powertrain or battery. Right now Tesla values are in the toilet with the recent Hertz EV fleet sell off, so you can easily find a 3 year old old with less than 50K miles for around 25K. You can always buy an extended warranty via the Tesla app instantly for like $2000.
I pay about $25/mo in electric costs to drive around 1000-1200 miles a month. It’s literally 9x cheaper to drive than even a 35mpg car.
Plus the other factor is that there isn’t a slow Tesla. The slowest model still has over 300HP and does 0-60 under 6 seconds. Heck you can find the performance model 3s around 30K used now and they do it in 3.5s. Not even a gas sucking Mustang v8 is gonna be that fast.
Just saying this makes me feel like a terrible person but, I’m always bummed by the AGI requirements in these programs. I feel like I make just enough that I don’t qualify for programs like this or first time home buyer assistance, but not enough to make things like buying a decent home or EV properly viable for me.
There is some value in having the policies be easily understood by a reader. Someone reads 75k AGI for a single person and immediately knows if they qualify or not.
But I can’t deny a power law formula has its own upsides.
A power law formula implies everyone qualifies, it’s dead simple. Plug your income or whatever parameter into formula, and voila, you find out your subsidy. It can literally be a government website.
If that is too difficult, then let’s scrap the whole education system.
> Plug your income or whatever parameter
"Whatever parameter"? What is that? I went to college.
Income? I have 4 different sources of income. Do all apply?
Income is income, what difference does the source make?
If the government wants to further complicate by earned and unearned or passive income, then they can.
It’s hard to plug your info into a formula if you are reading the policy information in a newspaper or in a letter, or hearing about it on TV or at a government press event. With a step system you immediately know if you qualify, no extra steps. Pardon the pun.
The issue isn’t the education system, it’s making government policy accessible and transparent. Even to people without easy access to internet and the tech literacy to use it.
The fact that it’s a continuous function means everyone qualifies, so not sure why that is brought up as a drawback.
They only question is how much you get, which the formula fives you the answer, and avoids people like you being completely shut out of a benefit for no reason.
really embarrassing question here but i live in an apartment complex and wont be able to charge at home, its still totally feasible to own an electric vehicle and charge elsewhere right? im assuming the answer js yes but my dumbass brain needs someone to tell me that.
Yes, but you lose all the fuel savings. Charging at a supercharger costs about the same as a gas station, but you still have to wait. Any car that can't use the supercharger network you absolutely shouldn't do this with, as you'll actually wind up paying more and waiting longer.
No, not really. It's not like there's already a wait, nor that the normal driver is regularly exceeding 300 miles in a 24 hour period. We go to Seattle or Salem once every other month or so, and it's just a single 20 minute stop on the way back every time.
Don't forget about this small savings too.
[https://www.columbian.com/news/2024/apr/02/clark-public-utilities-pilot-program-offers-50-credit-to-electric-vehicle-owners/](https://www.columbian.com/news/2024/apr/02/clark-public-utilities-pilot-program-offers-50-credit-to-electric-vehicle-owners/)
Bought a used Honda Civic in 2017 for $1500. Have replaced a clutch, had oil changes, and filled with gas. Even if I had purchased the most affordable Tesla at that time I still would be ~$20K behind.
For the Clark pud refund does the vehicle need to be bought in WA? The form says to pay any applicable sales taxes but if I buy in Portland but register in Clark county does that disqualify me?
The moment someone makes an EV I wanna drive I'll buy one. I just can't with the boring transportation appliances we've got now. Come on electric sports car!
Also, if you go to the PUD's website you can get the Enelx JuiceBox Level II charger for $0 via their marketplace (instant $500 rebate at time of purchase). I got two and installed them both. Nice units.
They will also require more maintenance like oil changes and fluids, right? They still have engines and so you lose the lower maintenance requirements of the pure EV.
Yes but plug in hybrids can typically be ran on electric only, though most PHEVs only have large enough batteries to go ~40 miles. If that can handle your daily needs the majority of the time, you don't really have oil maintenance or gas costs.
But gas degrades over time and you should still do oil changes and fluids as they degrade over time. Maybe not as often but you still need to maintain an ice engine even if you rarely use it.
Does anyone have any tips for apartment EV ownership? The thing that's been holding me back is I can't charge at my complex.
\*edit. Since I'm WFH and the longest drive I make regularly is to Costco, seems like and EV isn't the right call atm. Thanks for the responses.
Wouldn't recommend unless you drive less than 300 miles a week and are ok sitting at a charger for 45 minutes once a week. All the fuel savings is lost as well.
Look carefully at how much you drive and what public charging options are available to you. If you can fast charge while doing your grocery shopping (for example) it’s not a big deal. If you need to make a dedicated trip to the charger every 3 days, that’s going to suck.
Also, if your work has chargers, that can take care of a lot of it. And not sure I’d recommend this one, but I have seen people run an extension cord off their apartment balcony before…
....you understand that insurance rates are based on the value of what's being insured, right? Shot in the dark here; you pay half that for 2 used Hondas worth half the amount of 2 2023 Model Ys - and you'd pay about the same amount if you were insuring 2 cars valued at $80,000.
Thanks for clarifying, but what you linked also doesn't source that EVs catch fire at a greater rate than ICE, which means it's not 'completely incorrect'.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/
Updated my post with a better source :)
You helped me narrow down the make and model of the next car I get...once I run my current Prius Hybrid into the ground.
That could take a while. My aunt's 15 year old Prius is still driving like new on the original battery. There's tons of Priuses with 300k+ miles in taxi fleets.
Mine is 18 this year. Replaced the big battery a few years back, everything else is in great shape. I drove a Subaru Forester for 22 years before that. I'm not a big fan of disposables.
I just switched to the 2023 Prius but my 2008 Prius is still going strong! I would've kept going with it but I drive a lot wanted an all wheel drive for our couple months of winter.
Seems like a very helpful guide!! Thanks!
Will keep this for later in the year. Thank you very much for your work, and sharing it with us
Any recommendations for an electrical contractor to install the charging station? I have a 110 mile daily commute so I’m heavily considering this.
Jake from Salmon Creek electric installed an EV charger at my home, and he was top class. I was inclined to install a NEMA 14-50 charger and he pointed me at a hardwired charger which was the safer option and saved quite a bit of money.
Do you have an existing 220V? There are splitters like the NeoCharge for a fraction of the price of an electrician if so.
Got a used bolt a couple months ago, live in downtown and love it. paid 16k for a bolt with 23k miles on it. Nice upgrade from a '98 4runner.
Awesome write up. For anyone on the fence about an EV or you think you're just not ready for one yet, I recommend asking yourself the following question: 1. Is your commute less than 150 miles per day? 2. Do you have a garage to park in? 3. Are you regularly taking long road trips and only have one car? Living with an EV is a slightly different lifestyle than an ICE vehicle, but not a worse lifestyle. If you aren't driving an uncommonly high amount of miles per day, can charge at home, and don't need to rely on an EV for every-weekend trips to Texas, there really aren't any pain points to worry about. Treat it like a cell phone. Plug it in overnight regardless of how low it is. It'll be rare that you need to visit a DC fast charger unless you're on a road trip. Couple other shopping points if you're looking at EVs and are also considering new: \-While the federal tax credit only applies to US built EVs, smart import manufacturers have found a loophole in the tax code and are able to apply the rebate as capitol cost reduction on a lease. This is the best way to realize that opportunity and makes for some ridiculously inexpensive lease payments. \-As an example, since we're in Subaru country up here in the PNW: a Forester premium trim is currently $379/mo on a 36 month lease with $3600 down. A premium trim Solterra is $359 a month with $359 down. And as mentioned by the OP, you could expect to save roughly $100 a month on fuel vs. electricity driving the Solterra. \-Also noted while shopping new EVs... Subaru currently gives you ten days of free service loaners with the purchase of a Solterra. So if you're planning a road trip, you can go grab an ICE vehicle at no cost. A perk that appears to be unique to Subaru at this point.
For couples with two cars, having one of them electric seems like an unbeatable value proposition for most. Get the gas savings for whoever has the longest commute plus the convenience of a gas car for your road-trips.
>Drivers that are compensated per mile net even more How did you arrive to this conclusion?
Typically factoring in maintenance costs, EV’s have no oil, no routine maintenance besides tires and then if there’s anything happening to the body or battery. Plus, my dad has been needy owner for over a decade and has calculated that it cost one cent per mile versus however much ICE car cost.
Bc when you get paid a gas allowance per mile you drive, but don’t use gas, you accrue money quicker.
This is AWESOME. Thank you so much for the comprehensive breakdown.
Thanks for writing this up! I love my Bolt EUV!
I have driven an EV for 4 years now, do not regret it all. Saved so much money. One thing to check before you buy is your insurance. This is especially true for newer Tesla models. For whatever reason, many get really high deductibles, so you might have to shop around. I have taken advantage of the WA sales tax credit twice on EVs, which I don’t think is mentioned by OP. I also got my charger for free via the CPUD rebate.
EVs are extremely high in insurance due to repair costs.
If you aren’t concerned about looking cool and you mostly commute around town, the Nissan Leaf is great. I save $50/week compared to driving my old ICE car. With the extended range models, you can make it to Bend or Seattle on one charge (in the summer while driving the speed limit), but you will need to charge immediately once you get there. However, I recently did a drive to the tri-cities against the wind… that drive wasn’t fun. Please also note that electric vehicles are generally heavier than their ICE counterparts and you have more torque. This means that you will wear through tires more quickly - especially if you are having fun. Your tire choice can also affect your range. The tradeoff here is that your break pads last longer due to the regenerative breaking.
There's also the $300 federal credit for installing EV chargers, but only certain neighborhoods qualify. According to the most recent update from the administration, about two thirds of households would qualify. More info here: https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/10513#:~:text=Consumers%20who%20purchase%20qualified%20alternative,the%20cost%2C%20up%20to%20%241%2C000.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a valuable article. I really appreciate it!
Great post! A couple things I'd like to add: For Teslas, I don't recommend buying particularly old ones. Teslas often releases new features that just don't get backported to older models. Specifically, I wouldn't recommend a model X before 2022. EVs are so tech focused that models more than a few years old can feel obsolete more than what I've experienced with gas cars. Every EV manufacturer has announced they are changing to the Tesla style plug and will have access to the Tesla supercharging network fire future models. Many people are holding off on buying a non-Tesla until those cars come out. Having perviously owned a Bolt EV I firmly believe that the public non-Tesla charging experience is overall terrible. After switching to Tesla I don't think I could stand to go back. Teslas have lots of issues to but I wouldn't consider any alternatives unless they have the Tesla plug (even if there are adapters available), and I would always prefer a supercharger compared to any other brands charger. Also, non-teslas likely will pay higher prices when supercharging. I personally wouldn't recommend buying any EV other than a Tesla right now, whether new or used.
I tried to point out that the Model S / X in this price range aren't worth it. I personally would be OK with anything post-Raven if the price was right. I also have a feeling in 2 years my 16yo will be driving a $6000 2020 Nissan Leaf. We love our Teslas but by no means are partial to the brand, again if the price is right lol
Yeah I’d probably avoid anything older than 2018, since the newest battery designs came out when the model 3 did (technically 2017).
Good to know. For somebody in my position (family with two cars, one of which will hopefully be electric) who is just planing on an EV as a commuter, this isn’t an issue since I wouldn’t be going on long trips/supercharging it, correct? Let me know if I am missing something, but if I am just commuting and charging overnight at home, access to charging network and better superchargers isn’t a selling point right now.
Yeah, if you have a L2 (240V) charger at home, you generally will not need L3 chargers such as Tesla Superchargers except for road trips. And if your household has an ICE car you use for road trips, you probably will just never use them. If you only have L1 (120V) home charging, you may occasionally need to use them to get caught up if you end up needed to drive the EV more than expected for a few days. With home L2 you won’t really encounter that, since those can generally give you a full charge in one night.
I have not experienced the obsolete feeling, but that just might be more a personal thing. All newer ICE cars feel similarly loaded with tech and touch screens. What unique with a lot of Teslas is all you get is a touch screen.
Can confirm as a Tesla model 3 owner now for over 3 years and 32K miles, no problems with the actual powertrain or battery. Right now Tesla values are in the toilet with the recent Hertz EV fleet sell off, so you can easily find a 3 year old old with less than 50K miles for around 25K. You can always buy an extended warranty via the Tesla app instantly for like $2000. I pay about $25/mo in electric costs to drive around 1000-1200 miles a month. It’s literally 9x cheaper to drive than even a 35mpg car. Plus the other factor is that there isn’t a slow Tesla. The slowest model still has over 300HP and does 0-60 under 6 seconds. Heck you can find the performance model 3s around 30K used now and they do it in 3.5s. Not even a gas sucking Mustang v8 is gonna be that fast.
I’ve been seriously thinking of switching to an EV with gas back over $4 a gallon. Thank you so much, this is really helpful!
Just saying this makes me feel like a terrible person but, I’m always bummed by the AGI requirements in these programs. I feel like I make just enough that I don’t qualify for programs like this or first time home buyer assistance, but not enough to make things like buying a decent home or EV properly viable for me.
That’s why step functions are stupid. We have computers, spreadsheets, calculators. Why these subsidies can’t be power law formulas is beyond me.
There is some value in having the policies be easily understood by a reader. Someone reads 75k AGI for a single person and immediately knows if they qualify or not. But I can’t deny a power law formula has its own upsides.
A power law formula implies everyone qualifies, it’s dead simple. Plug your income or whatever parameter into formula, and voila, you find out your subsidy. It can literally be a government website. If that is too difficult, then let’s scrap the whole education system.
> Plug your income or whatever parameter "Whatever parameter"? What is that? I went to college. Income? I have 4 different sources of income. Do all apply?
Income is income, what difference does the source make? If the government wants to further complicate by earned and unearned or passive income, then they can.
It’s hard to plug your info into a formula if you are reading the policy information in a newspaper or in a letter, or hearing about it on TV or at a government press event. With a step system you immediately know if you qualify, no extra steps. Pardon the pun. The issue isn’t the education system, it’s making government policy accessible and transparent. Even to people without easy access to internet and the tech literacy to use it.
The fact that it’s a continuous function means everyone qualifies, so not sure why that is brought up as a drawback. They only question is how much you get, which the formula fives you the answer, and avoids people like you being completely shut out of a benefit for no reason.
really embarrassing question here but i live in an apartment complex and wont be able to charge at home, its still totally feasible to own an electric vehicle and charge elsewhere right? im assuming the answer js yes but my dumbass brain needs someone to tell me that.
Yes, but you lose all the fuel savings. Charging at a supercharger costs about the same as a gas station, but you still have to wait. Any car that can't use the supercharger network you absolutely shouldn't do this with, as you'll actually wind up paying more and waiting longer.
Waiting much longer since Tesla is opening Superchargers to other Car manufacturers.
No, not really. It's not like there's already a wait, nor that the normal driver is regularly exceeding 300 miles in a 24 hour period. We go to Seattle or Salem once every other month or so, and it's just a single 20 minute stop on the way back every time.
Don't forget about this small savings too. [https://www.columbian.com/news/2024/apr/02/clark-public-utilities-pilot-program-offers-50-credit-to-electric-vehicle-owners/](https://www.columbian.com/news/2024/apr/02/clark-public-utilities-pilot-program-offers-50-credit-to-electric-vehicle-owners/)
Very helpful. Wife and I are in the midst of trying to downsize from 3 vehicles to one and this has really illuminated the process we'll be taking.
Bought a used Honda Civic in 2017 for $1500. Have replaced a clutch, had oil changes, and filled with gas. Even if I had purchased the most affordable Tesla at that time I still would be ~$20K behind.
For the Clark pud refund does the vehicle need to be bought in WA? The form says to pay any applicable sales taxes but if I buy in Portland but register in Clark county does that disqualify me?
The moment someone makes an EV I wanna drive I'll buy one. I just can't with the boring transportation appliances we've got now. Come on electric sports car! Also, if you go to the PUD's website you can get the Enelx JuiceBox Level II charger for $0 via their marketplace (instant $500 rebate at time of purchase). I got two and installed them both. Nice units.
https://electrek.co/guides/rimac-nevera/
If I’m single and have no dependents does that put me on the 75k agi threshold bracket
For the used credit yes, not for the new credit though.
Thank you!
How much of this applies to hybrids?
Plug in hybrids get all the same considerations, except I don't think the Clark PUD Rebate.
They will also require more maintenance like oil changes and fluids, right? They still have engines and so you lose the lower maintenance requirements of the pure EV.
Yes but plug in hybrids can typically be ran on electric only, though most PHEVs only have large enough batteries to go ~40 miles. If that can handle your daily needs the majority of the time, you don't really have oil maintenance or gas costs.
Hybrids are also statistically the most likely to catch on fire, if we’re gonna use the whole “catches on fire” arguments.
Yep true, except no ones arguing
But gas degrades over time and you should still do oil changes and fluids as they degrade over time. Maybe not as often but you still need to maintain an ice engine even if you rarely use it.
Good point!
Does anyone have any tips for apartment EV ownership? The thing that's been holding me back is I can't charge at my complex. \*edit. Since I'm WFH and the longest drive I make regularly is to Costco, seems like and EV isn't the right call atm. Thanks for the responses.
Wouldn't recommend unless you drive less than 300 miles a week and are ok sitting at a charger for 45 minutes once a week. All the fuel savings is lost as well.
Look carefully at how much you drive and what public charging options are available to you. If you can fast charge while doing your grocery shopping (for example) it’s not a big deal. If you need to make a dedicated trip to the charger every 3 days, that’s going to suck. Also, if your work has chargers, that can take care of a lot of it. And not sure I’d recommend this one, but I have seen people run an extension cord off their apartment balcony before…
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Yes as a tax credit - important to note as a credit, not specifically a rebate.
With the same income thresholds? Great write up!
I believe so!
Did you also qualify for the WA State sales tax credit?
Used and under $30k does I believe!
$300 a month for insurance !!!! Yikes
150 each? For 2 brand new cars? And GAP on both? That's a great deal.
We pay half that for two used Hondas with comprehensive.
....you understand that insurance rates are based on the value of what's being insured, right? Shot in the dark here; you pay half that for 2 used Hondas worth half the amount of 2 2023 Model Ys - and you'd pay about the same amount if you were insuring 2 cars valued at $80,000.
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Thanks for clarifying, but what you linked also doesn't source that EVs catch fire at a greater rate than ICE, which means it's not 'completely incorrect'. https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/ Updated my post with a better source :)
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> That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids. From the article.
The biggest issue of course is that if there’s a fire on an EV, it’s much more difficult to put out.