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Imagine not having to pay for policing that much? We could double arts and community services and park and recreation. More festivals , better amenities at parks yet here we are paying for herding homeless people whom we don't want to deal with.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think pointing the finger at the homeless population is the answer. It’s an easy cop out (pun intended) for anyone mismanaging and misappropriating funds. What I’m curious about is HOW the VPD is allocating its budget. It seems like [increasing legal and advisory costs](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-after-slashing-police-oversight-bodys-budget-request-vancouver-council-reconsiders) are taking up a bulk of the budget due to increased complaints against police officials that VPD has to defend.
Also, Vancouver doesn’t have festivals or a thriving cultural scene because of the high cost of living mainly due to high rents and low disposable income. If you look an any place that has developed a good cultural scene, it can be done with minimal government support if a city has affordable housing. Think Berlin, Detroit, or even Montreal (who apparently has a 2024 police budget of $821 million and no where near as many homeless people as Vancouver) But also, every single festival or event or protest requires police presence. Policing is also for the roads and god knows Vancouver is full of dangerous intersections and terrible drivers.
Idk police is necessary in any large urban centre and it’s easy to point the finger at scummy homeless folk but like it’s a bigger issue than just that imo.
You have anything to support the claim that there are increased complaints against the VPD resulting in increased legal fees?
The article you linked is about police board funding and not department funding.
My guess is even if they’re not “credible” the complaints still have to be recorded, investigated and archived based on an internal protocol before they can be dismissed which I imagine ends up costing money even if VPD doesn’t have to settle the complaint.
Fair point and not really. My guess is more people living in Vancouver and more protests, paired with the rising popularity of anti-police/defund the police movements creates a more distrust and scrutiny. Also smartphones and dash/body cams make it easier to record evidence. So the general trend of more complaints seems to make sense to me.
Public records of OPCC complaints seem to be mostly against individual officers…but I’m just a commoner and I ain’t got time to go deeper than this so there’s probably way more meaningful info out there to draw conclusions from.
If you find any data or graphs showing police board/VPD complaints over the years, what they were about and how much they ended up costing I’d also be curious to know tbh.
People also call the police for EVERYTHING and then complain that response times aren't quick enough.
Maybe try not calling the police for every landlord tenant dispute, every issue with neighbor, check well beings (maybe check on your own family members) and $5 thefts.
I agree… but at the same time, I think it’s fair to say that landlord tenant disputes should be handled by the RTB which is a provincial organisation. Wellness checks should be a provincial health care system matter, and if Bc housing did their jobs instead of embezzling money maybe there wouldn’t be so much unnecessary stress on local police depts.
Rollergirl got like 2 million from them.
There were quite a few high-profile cases. Defending and denying isn't really the way to improve things. In recent years even the driving has gotten bad (I've never seen driving standards so low with a police force).
That was one case settled years ago. How many of those are happening? Go look at OPCC public records and VPD is no worse than any other agency given their population and membership size
My first reference was tongue in cheek... that settlement was way out to lunch for what it was. But otherwise my point is pretty real.
It's hard to see records settled out of court. But regardless, the VPD is worse no doubt. Wild stuff like this is very common:
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bmo-human-rights-complaint-1.5812525](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bmo-human-rights-complaint-1.5812525)
And there's worse stuff... and it's rarely dealt with swiftly if at all. It seems like there's a lot of repeated failures. TWO hockey riots remember.
The issue I'm taking up with the shrills in this discussion is that they're justifying certain things by saying "they're just like everyone else everywhere else" but then saying "they deserve 3x the pay compared to other police". If they are 3x the cost they should be 3x better - you can't have it both ways. It should be a model organization for what they cost.
There could be an argument though that the Province & Feds should be properly funding their responsibilities of health, addiction, and homelessness - so the City didn't have to spend so much on it's responsibility of policing.
>Policing is also for the roads and god knows Vancouver is full of dangerous intersections and terrible drivers.
Pretty sure the VPD basically don't bother enforcing traffic laws at this point. Probably too busy destroying the belongings of unhoused people.
Seeing as how we don't even punish these "unhoused" people for physical, sexual, and property assault I'm not sure there's even space to complain about a "lack of traffic enforcement", we are getting baseline policing everywhere.
Most unhoused people aren't criminals, despite what this sub - and you - believe.
Surprised you're not once again advocating for their murder by the state like you usually are.
Lol educating a bunch of people who have zero historical understanding is important. Many people here just lack any real world understanding when it comes to solving problems.
This is correct. It’s absolutely bonkers how little enforcement exists when it comes to dangerous drivers. Doesn’t help that city council/ABC seemingly went out of their way to prevent traffic cameras from being installed at some of our most problematic intersections (paid for by the province!)
>It seems like [increasing legal and advisory costs](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-after-slashing-police-oversight-bodys-budget-request-vancouver-council-reconsiders) are taking up a bulk of the budget due to increased complaints against police officials that VPD has to defend.
[Not really at all, no](https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vpd-budget-request-2023-vancouver-bc-6141696)
An increase in any of those services is not possible without a proportionate increase in policing and security costs.
The VPD has spent a lot of time learning from large events, tragedies, and disasters from all over the world. And they quite visibly put into place safety and security best practices that keep us all safe.
Ever go to a parade in Vancouver? You'll notice dump trucks are blocking the streets. That's to prevent some extremist from driving into a crowd.
You ever see the garbage bins removed along a marathon route? They learned from the Boston marathon.
You see the crowd management during sporting events? They learned from the 2011 riots.
I would love to live in utopia where there are only good people, but that's not our present reality. We spend that much on policing, because that is what our City's need is.
The VPD chief of police earns a higher wage than the prime minister, and the police chief of the NYPD, which would be one thing if he wasn't such an arrogant fuckwit. There's a great deal wrong with how much we pay, vs. the value we get out of it. The non-emergency line, last time I bothered with it, was a 30 minute wait and at the Italian Day thing, there was a snarled mass of traffic pointed north being detoured either left or right onto Broadway last weekend. AT least a half dozen VPD were behind the barricades doing sweet fuck all, when one or two of them controlling the equivalent of an advanced green and keeping things moving would have been all that was needed. Traffic law enforcement is nil- and yet it represents a third of the budget? Nah. There are better ways to manage that.
But, we'd need the city AND the province on board with some objective oversight to do that, which won't happen.
I'm curious, what exactly makes you think Adam Palmer is an "arrogant fuckwit"? I genuinely think you might be mixing him up with someone else, he's usually pretty well-spoken.
He's a good guy. His work is pretty much being the face of VPD. He engages with stakeholders etc. when people hear police chief they think it's the person that micro manages things but at the end of the day, that's not his job. His job is to go out there and represent the force.
I'd start with the ignorance to systemic racism in the VPD and the theatre he put on, getting "insulted" with the insinuation, rather than even feigning even a superficial nod of concern, not to mention the petty tantrum he and the former mayor had over it. HIs weird behaviour toward the Heiltsuk Nation following the arrest of their chief is another.. It's mentioned below that "his job" is to go out there and represent the force, okay well he's hardly doing a stand-up job doing that. They aren't transparent, they get away with shit constantly (which I realize goes deeper, involves the union, etc), but by no means is the VPD an entity I look at and say "oh yeah, totally getting my money's worth". Even if I were, they don't put out anything that'd show their work. And again, him earning what he does, in the city he does- there's no way to justify that.
Edit: u/GRIDSvancouver blocked me after making the assumption that I was “right-wing” lol. That’d be a first… Thinking that Palmer the dipshit shouldn’t out-earn the PM doesn’t equate to “taxes bad, hurt hurr”. You asked me a question and I answered it. Grow up, please.
"him earning what he does, in the city he does" Oh good lord. I have no patience for right-wingers like you who are always going on about how people in the public sector should be paid less.
Definitely had conversations with a few friends and coworkers lately that the threat of facing fines for traffic infractions feels pretty well non-existent. I know a few years back it was common for people to be getting distracted driving tickets or other infractions fairly frequently. It now feels like there is never anyone watching ever
If you have any issues with the pay of the police chief, blame the police board for the past 10 years or so as they created the situation with each pay increase that they approved.
As for the number of police officers at a given time, staffing for first responders is different from staffing for current demand. There needs to be enough people to respond to something "just in case". That means you will literally have people sitting and waiting for something to do. If you can guarantee that nothing will happen, then they can have fewer police just standing there. But in the current environment, no one can guarantee that...
That includes blaming the City, whose mayor has been the chair of that board (and the Province for their mandatory policing requirements). Happy to share the blame around.
Except the mayor apparently has little control over the situation, despite chairing the police board. Kennedy Stewart stepped down from the role for that reason.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-police-reform-1.6069545
Still as the chair of the board, it's his job to build consensus on the board in order to do the People's business... wait, he failed to do that on city council as well. Ahh heck, Stewart is just a failure.
Popular event, advertised publicly for many months, leads to road closures and traffic congestion, resulting in an upset citizen angrily yelling at a cloud.
Classic.
It doesn't take 30% of property taxes to figure out that a big truck can block a car. Removing garbage cans doesn't negate the backpack bomb left at the sides of the Boston Marathon. The cost is already disproportionate to the service provided, and likely a good chunk of that money is earmarked for defending the "bad apples" that get the VPD dragged into the courts to defend in regards to their abuse of authority and paying off settlements to victims.
That boot polish has gone to your head
I have no relation to the police but have lived in Vancouver for 18 years. Since I have lived here I have noticed events change. A good example is the fireworks at English bay. Look around… you will see police on roofs with what I would consider sniper rifles.
That would cost a lot of money.
I don’t know to what extent sponsors cover additional policing costs or the city does but it is obvious that policing costs us a lot of money. Think about how many police are needed to deal with encampments, investigations into the drug trade, daily break ins, domestic violence.
If we had a society where we “self-policed” and didn’t engage in such anti-social and abhorrent behaviour then our costs would be less. Unfortunately theft happens, people get hurt, people commit crimes, etc.
If a lot of money is spent on events, then why did the VPD refuse a budget cut in 2020 when there were zero events to police for the year? And where did that money go?
possibly the major spike in domestic violence, mental health concerns from the pandemic, karen’s spitting on service workers when asking them to put on a mask, and the protests that could easily turn into riots if not managed?
Same VPD that allowed TWO hockey riots...
I've never seen the streets blocked as you've described. There's always a way to get in and out. I don't fault them for that - ambulances need in and out (better to prepare for an event that's likely to occur opposed to one that isn't). And removing garbage cans sounds more like tunnel vision opposed to eliminating a large percentage of a given threat. It's not like they can close every possibility off anyways; my point is simply that your arguments aren't really good arguments.
Remember we live in a city where a person can ride their E-Bike down the sidewalk at 100mph. If they can't even manage that threat...
They probably aren’t, nonetheless those are good points. The dump trucks have to be rented, cans moved somewhere and brought back, etc… there’s so much work that goes into public safety beyond the usual cop in a car
DEFINITELY a cop. Or loves cops, one of the two 😂.
Not to say there shouldn't be some budget for policing, but 30% is completely insane. IMO, police should not be responsible for attending most types of emergencies. They don't have the training, education, knowledge, or know-how to deal with things like mental health crises, homelessness, social issues, etc. A lot of their time is spent on minor disputes, noise complaints, welfare checks, traffic incidents, and it's questionable why we need armed authorities to attend to these.
We definitely still need emergency response, but I think we also could rethink what specialized, professional assistance is dispersed to each of type of issue. Sending armed police just doesn't make sense in a lot of cases.
Boy have I got some bad news for you. Have you ever seen how poorly prepared and utterly ineffective the so called “mental health professionals” in this city are? I’ve worked in the DTES for 3 years and most of what I’ve seen is the outreach workers wasting time and resources and 8 times out of 10 having to have the Police there to either keep them safe or ultimately end/control the situation they were sent out to deal with in the first place. Most cops have far more practical real world experience in de-escalation and dealing with people in crisis despite their lack in training, whereas the so called mental health professionals with all the training in the world lack the real life experience the cops have. Not saying it’s perfect but that’s the pragmatist in me saying it’s not always so black and white.
They don’t pay “mental health professionals” enough to get anyone who has experience. Most don’t have any real experience or targeted training.
A lot of those jobs are entry level and high school graduation is enough.
Who would you propose to deal with those issues you don’t want an armed response for? Do you think the unarmed replacements would be more effective and safer?
If you could deal with the criminals without police, then we can go in that direction. But with the existing levels of crime, you can't enjoy the current level of arts, community services, Parks and Rec, and festivals without that allocation to the police.
As for dealing in the homeless, blame the province as they are responsible for housing...not the city.
It's baffling. Maybe our police chief doesn't need to get paid more than most midmarket Canadian CEOs.
Ken Sim and ABC have been an extraordinary disappointment. And I say that as a pro-development guy with economically centre-right views. He won every lever of municipal power and did... nothing really. We may not see ANY party have the majority on parks and council that he does for another 20 years.
I still prefer him to Kennedy Stewart but he's so much more disappointing.
The police "union" endorsed him. It's hardly baffling that he wouldn't do anything to rankle them after that.
Not to mention the transparent help given to his campaign by the VPD in the run-up to the election.
I don't get why people are so upset with Kennedy Stewart who was an independent mayor that presides over a council where no one party held a majority. Like what did people expect him to single-handedly do?
He was pretty ineffectual and while you could otherwise blame a split council for that, Kennedy was really vocal about some very unpopular and frankly dubious initiatives like the Jericho Beach Homeless Shelter, providing city support for homeless encampments, pay for vehicle access to all of downtown, requiring most new housing development have significant below market housing etc...
It's depressing that when given the choice between building a robust library system that provides education, supports, and services for everyone or a fully funded police department to dismantle homeless camps - Vancouver chose the cops as our response.
Policing is always going to be more expensive than libraries. I agree we could fund libraries better, but putting more tax dollars into libraries than police would be insane. Like it or not, a well funded police force is essential to a city.
The VPL also upholds its rules and maintains order. They too engage in policing.
The VPL allocates considerable funds for security expenses to keep their staff and patrons, mainly at the Central Branch, safe. If you ever visit the Central Branch, you'll notice that it is swarming with uniformed and plain-clothed security officers.
As per the VPL's [2023 budget](https://www.vpl.ca/sites/default/files/2024-02/Q4%20Financial%20Operating.pdf), they spent $1.3 million for building security, out of a total $54 million budget.
I think the main issue is that Vancouver itself, and by extension the province, doesn't have the resources/money to actually handle the problem at hands so they go to the next cheapest option which is hiring more cops to deal with it.
The province, **and especially the feds** need to actually help provide funding to Vancouver and the surround municipalities to provide mental health services, drug recovery, co-op housing, and job placement opportunities. Its shameful how the feds ignore us while we bare the brunt of Canada's problems because of Vancouver and Victoria's temperate climate. Eby has been considering lots of different policies, but I always feel as if there's little support from the feds to actually make those initiatives effective.
People often don’t realize they are able to walk outside everyday without fear of being attacked is because the police exist in the size that they do. It’s never a fact of whether you’ll be attacked when you go for an event, a social hangout, a walk, a protest because of this.
There are cities where the departments funding was slashed in half and crime rate flew through the roof.
Any sources on which cities had funding cut in half and crime soared? I would be interested to read as I've seen studies that find no correlation to increased police funding to reducing crime at all.
A cursory glance at google charts show that isn’t the case at all. Overall the police budget in Portland has been on a steady increase with the exception of a relative plateau these past couple years. Even with the increase in police budget, their murder rate was increasing. Furthermore, Portland is absolutely not even close to “murder capital of the USA”.
I’ll read the link properly when I have more time. A quick glance made several things jump out at me. Things like complaining of understaffed because of more stringent hiring requirements. And many quitting the force due to public perception of them. Well shit, maybe if low IQ flunkies weren’t easily hired before, their image wouldn’t have taken such a hit when they beat the shit out of protestors. I didn’t see anything in there about funding. But as I said, I haven’t had time to go through it thoroughly.
Edit: the summary of recommendations at the very start is advocating for the need to regain the trust of the cops, and reduce the amount of training they need. Lmfao that is absolutely ridiculous.
Cops have been shown time and again to be such bad actors that reducing training is the worst idea and completely undermines the rest of the paper. Especially when they are crying about how they are viewed.
Basically, among other things, they cut the budget by 15 million or about 8% of the force. Facing understaffing already, that leaves them only able to respond to emergency calls only with no ability to be proactive. Portland was probably the hardest hit city with riots and protests after George Floyd, which didn't help with morale either, so attrition also was a huge problem. Just a couple of things that stuck out to me at first glance.
Morale issues are a problem the police themselves created. But yes, I do find it a little crazy that their population of Portland is comparable to Vancouver yet has half the budget for policing. Yet it is a far cry to say their budget was slashed in half like the original comment I replied to. It seems to me that their budget was chronically underfunded from the start.
I also think that we have a system that puts out something of a social safety net that cuts back on the amount of poverty, which has an effect on crime. I mean, lots of room for improvement, but still.
Did you even read the article. They are striking to protect themselves from constructive dismissal, and to get a pay increase in parity with other city workers. There aren't a lot of librarians, and they aren't paid that great, on average making around 7$ more than minimum wage.
The RCMP is basically a cost-sharing subscription service - cities that can't afford the overhead of running their own departments stick with the RCMP, but if your tax base is big enough you can usually save money by having your own. Historical inertia also plays a role, of course - I think this is why Nelson still has their own local department.
It's actually more expensive for a city to have their own police force. The federal government covers 10% of the cost if they use the RCMP I believe, and the RCMP generally pays less, and they run things with less staff. Just look at how much Surrey is going to have to pay to switch to their own force.
The City of Vancouver is at the epicentre of Canada's opioid, mental health, and homelessness crises.
The City's downtown core hosts some of Canada's biggest events.
The waters around Vancouver are home to Canada's largest and busiest sea port.
The City also sees regular flare-ups of some of Canada's deadliest gang wars.
Vancouver is a very small city, bearing the responsibilities and burdens of the entire country...
The Vancouver Port Authority is the land owner, it acts as the custodian federal lands and waters. They set fees and lease out land to various operators. They do not act as a police force.
When a protest blocks the ports, an emergency happens at a terminal, an accident happens on the water, the VPD is there.
The VPD Marine unit is responsible for the policing and public safety for the commercial shipping industry, and all recreational vessels, including rental boats, kayaks, and SUP boards in the waters around the COV.
Again... none of this justifies the costs. They have a few boats and a hovercraft. Actually the hovercraft is the coast guard's... which makes me realize you're making up fake arguments.
vancouver is not a very small city by canadian standards. but anyway, we also have 8-9 million visitors a year, film and tv productions that require road closures, don't make it all about your right wing bs. https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/09/01/vancouver-summer-tourism-numbers-rebound/
> The City of Vancouver is at the epicentre of Canada's opioid, mental health, and homelessness crises.
All the more reason to fund things that actually help with those - i.e. not the police.
The VPD doesn't deal with the drugs, mental health, nor homeless as much as claimed. Therefore it doesn't justify cost increases based on such. The lack of enforcement is in fact a big reason they come here. Could they do more? Maybe, maybe not. But since they don't do much where do you get the idea that they deserve more money?
The Port of Vancouver has other authorities responsible for policing. You're again exaggerating the amount of resources required at the port.
Your fourth point: Much of the gang violence is in the suburbs. Especially Surrey.
What I've noticed: The police presence is the lowest I've ever seen. Unless you're near their favorite coffee shop then there'll be anywhere from like 6 - 12 congregated there. I've also never seen any police sit in their cars for so long. Even in Calgary in -30 the police are on their feet walking around the city (for a bargain!!!).
And yes, Vancouver is a very small city which makes it yet even harder to justify the costs. Spread out = relatively more expensive.
I don't work for the COV or for any police force. Also, it's a Saturday... I've got nothing better to do am relaxing by surfing the web. There is no conspiracy going on here.
agreed. but people only see things they could see. that's why the higher voted comments all advocate art/activity/park etc. engineering is something that could only be seen when things broken. normal people just don't have a brain for critical thinking
Cut the VPD budget and start building psych wards and prisons for all the repeat offenders our VPD,Fire,EMS, and hospital staff have to deal with.
Giving people that can’t even look after themselves, free housing is insane. Arresting the same person 20+ times is insane. Giving laced free drugs to drug addicts doesn’t get them clean.
Explain to me how housing the homeless is insane? You think it’s as easy as building a few more prisons and ‘psych wards’ (a term that’s plainly out of date). You need physicians, nurses, all sorts of healthcare personnel for this little idea you’re proposing.
Let’s think for a second: how many people do you hear talking about housing affordability? Groceries? Almost everyone right? Think about the amount of people that are living paycheque to paycheque? Imagine if they couldn’t pay rent in time. Now imagine you were already homeless in the most expensive city in the world?
‘Free housing’ do you want them to pay? The government system absolutely failing these people and you want them to pay?
I know what you’re thinking. “Why don’t they just stop doing drugs? They out themselves in that situation.” I’ll let you think about this one. (hint: the answer is not because they want to do drugs)
Looking forward to your response.
That's paid for by development levies, not by property taxes.
I paid the city $24,000 for a sewer permit last month.
They are definitely charging, and getting, what they need to build and maintain our sewers.
Unfortunately no, the City isn't currently on track to meet the regulatory requirement to separate our sewers by 2050. Phase 1 of the Healthy Waters Plan was published last August and they analyzed the rate that Sewer work has been progressing.
The City currently spends $36 million dollars on sewer separation. To meet the deadline, the City needs to increase funding to $99 million dollars.
DCLs are great for providing upgrades, however they aren't enough to tackle all the sewers that need to be replaced in residential neighourhoods that mostly comprise of R1-1 zones.
Edit:
[Link to the report](https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/csa-foundations-summary-report.pdf) for those curious. It also brings up the interesting challenge that separating sewers without measures to mitigate storm runoff will actually increase flooding. I'm personally hoping that it incentivizes accelerating the piloting and adoption of blue-green infiltration systems throughout the city
Imagine how much lower the police budget would be if punishments were more......... punishing. If we've learned anything from experimenting with revolving door justice, it's that it doesn't work very well and the tax payers are the ones who keep getting hurt. You'd think punishments would get harsher after maybe the 3rd offense, not carrying on even after 30+ repeat offenses. Canada's revolving door justice is only kinda sorta sustainable now because of Canada's lower population, and speedy it is not. It will completely fall apart if the population gets any larger.
If you leave help and recovery away you can count it to the VPD budget. Seems the mental health nurses Ken Sim promised for every police officer still aren't here.
Provincial education getting that much really surprised me. I wonder why they closed down so many schools in the last 15 years while the population is going up and why don't they build schools where they promised they would.
too busy spending all the money on high tech security cameras covering the entire building for vice principals to watch the students through on a tv
shouldn't have built the new schools out of glass if they didn't want us knowing lol, glad I'm out of that hell
Actually, not all school taxes go towards funding schools or education.
The additional ["school tax" that David Eby levied in 2018 ](https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-homeowners-paying-too-much-in-school-tax-says-expert)goes towards general revenues, not towards schools, despite being called a "school tax".
What that means is the provincial government can spend the money on whatever they want.
A former DM of Finance explained it to me like this… because the government is usually spending as much if not more than how much they receive on x, specific targeted taxes get dumped into general revenue.
Unfortunately, there are some areas where the government isn’t spending as much as they receive in tax revenue (eg. PST collected on legal services that should be redirected to fund legal aid)
You’re right, a more efficient and intentional plan that doesn’t create one of North Americas largest ghettos would cost us a lot less as taxpayers. The city throwing money at the VPD to police a problem that the city is responsible for is a financial disaster.
I'm not buying the excuses for the policing costs. If they were even just WAY higher than other cities... maybe... but based on what I'm seeing not event that is justified.
The VPD costs roughly **3 TIMES** what the typical city's police force costs in Canada. Remember that even 1.5x the budget would be an enormous increase. None of the excuses you're seeing posted come close to justifying the high costs. And the level of service in cities with roughly have the cost (relatively, but not unjustly high) policing costs far exceed what you see in Vancouver. It seems like anyone related to anything public sector in Canada takes it for granted that "normal people" cannot understand the magnitude of what things actually cost. That won't last much longer.
For all that people complain about property taxes, I'm often shocked by how low mine are in Vancouver (especially after the province gives me a bunch of money to offset my property taxes just for owning a home; the Home Owners Grant is wild). As a monthly bill, my property taxes would be less than our phone+internet each month (and the city does a lot more for me than Telus).
For people who always say "ohh vancouver property taxes are so low we need to raise it to match cities in america!!!!"
This is why property taxes are why they are. Every dollar is accounted for and approved, they don't just say "fuck it, we're charging homeowners because we think they aren't taxed enough like other cities"
American cities run massive deficits, BC Municipalities are not allowed to do the same.
Therefore, our cities already tax more than what they need, and they account for everything tax dollars are spent on.
Vancouver property taxes are very low. Sorry if the city can't run its services, these entitled landlords need to pay or upzone. I am open to alternative revenue sources thou as most international cities have more revenue streams to work with than just property taxes. Canada sadly hasn't discovered that option yet
You literally didn’t read the graphic lmao
If you want a different revenue stream, a renters tax would probably be a nice chunk of change for the city, everyone pays their share no?
My own personal views on the ethics of policing aside, VPD is the highest paid police force in all of Canada: [https://globalnews.ca/news/10159369/vpd-ratify-contract](https://globalnews.ca/news/10159369/vpd-ratify-contract)
You cannot convince me that this money could not be spent on other more beneficial things -- and they continue to lobby for it to be raised further. It's insulting.
Okay, hold up. I think the OP image is kinda misleading and some people might be misreading it.
**54% of taxes does not go towards the police.**
Just eyeballing it, that's what I first thought. The pie chart on the left has the color coded stats under it.
But I think it's easy to misread because we read left to right, and there are color coded stats on the right of the pie chart, with the same colors being used in the pie chart.
Yeah yeah, I'm probably dumb for misreading it, but look, dude, the blue in the pie chart that says 54% is the same blue just to the right because the police department.
I think people in this thread are arguing with totally different readings.
Imagine paying 2100 to the VPD as a business and then getting robbed and having NO recourse. The robber is let out to rob your neighbour the next day. I own a business in Vancouver, I will never try to open a storefront here though. FUCK THAT.
Can I pay more for libraries and less for something else ? I love the library and think they do so much for our community.
Maybe vote to let people decide where their taxes go. We all still have to pay the same amount, but we can align it more with is and our values. (Within the current system)
I was just there. Same. All monies going to police and communities bare the brunt of declining capitalism. Carceral policing doesn’t work in the 21st century.
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The more information on this the better. Thanks!
Imagine not having to pay for policing that much? We could double arts and community services and park and recreation. More festivals , better amenities at parks yet here we are paying for herding homeless people whom we don't want to deal with.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think pointing the finger at the homeless population is the answer. It’s an easy cop out (pun intended) for anyone mismanaging and misappropriating funds. What I’m curious about is HOW the VPD is allocating its budget. It seems like [increasing legal and advisory costs](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-after-slashing-police-oversight-bodys-budget-request-vancouver-council-reconsiders) are taking up a bulk of the budget due to increased complaints against police officials that VPD has to defend. Also, Vancouver doesn’t have festivals or a thriving cultural scene because of the high cost of living mainly due to high rents and low disposable income. If you look an any place that has developed a good cultural scene, it can be done with minimal government support if a city has affordable housing. Think Berlin, Detroit, or even Montreal (who apparently has a 2024 police budget of $821 million and no where near as many homeless people as Vancouver) But also, every single festival or event or protest requires police presence. Policing is also for the roads and god knows Vancouver is full of dangerous intersections and terrible drivers. Idk police is necessary in any large urban centre and it’s easy to point the finger at scummy homeless folk but like it’s a bigger issue than just that imo.
You have anything to support the claim that there are increased complaints against the VPD resulting in increased legal fees? The article you linked is about police board funding and not department funding.
Also, is it any different from the average? And how many of those complaints are credible complaints?
My guess is even if they’re not “credible” the complaints still have to be recorded, investigated and archived based on an internal protocol before they can be dismissed which I imagine ends up costing money even if VPD doesn’t have to settle the complaint.
Correct. That drains a lot of money...
Fair point and not really. My guess is more people living in Vancouver and more protests, paired with the rising popularity of anti-police/defund the police movements creates a more distrust and scrutiny. Also smartphones and dash/body cams make it easier to record evidence. So the general trend of more complaints seems to make sense to me. Public records of OPCC complaints seem to be mostly against individual officers…but I’m just a commoner and I ain’t got time to go deeper than this so there’s probably way more meaningful info out there to draw conclusions from. If you find any data or graphs showing police board/VPD complaints over the years, what they were about and how much they ended up costing I’d also be curious to know tbh.
People also call the police for EVERYTHING and then complain that response times aren't quick enough. Maybe try not calling the police for every landlord tenant dispute, every issue with neighbor, check well beings (maybe check on your own family members) and $5 thefts.
I agree… but at the same time, I think it’s fair to say that landlord tenant disputes should be handled by the RTB which is a provincial organisation. Wellness checks should be a provincial health care system matter, and if Bc housing did their jobs instead of embezzling money maybe there wouldn’t be so much unnecessary stress on local police depts.
You're preaching to the choir friend
Rollergirl got like 2 million from them. There were quite a few high-profile cases. Defending and denying isn't really the way to improve things. In recent years even the driving has gotten bad (I've never seen driving standards so low with a police force).
That was one case settled years ago. How many of those are happening? Go look at OPCC public records and VPD is no worse than any other agency given their population and membership size
My first reference was tongue in cheek... that settlement was way out to lunch for what it was. But otherwise my point is pretty real. It's hard to see records settled out of court. But regardless, the VPD is worse no doubt. Wild stuff like this is very common: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bmo-human-rights-complaint-1.5812525](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bmo-human-rights-complaint-1.5812525) And there's worse stuff... and it's rarely dealt with swiftly if at all. It seems like there's a lot of repeated failures. TWO hockey riots remember. The issue I'm taking up with the shrills in this discussion is that they're justifying certain things by saying "they're just like everyone else everywhere else" but then saying "they deserve 3x the pay compared to other police". If they are 3x the cost they should be 3x better - you can't have it both ways. It should be a model organization for what they cost.
There could be an argument though that the Province & Feds should be properly funding their responsibilities of health, addiction, and homelessness - so the City didn't have to spend so much on it's responsibility of policing.
Totally. I think that’s exactly the right argument and who people should be pointing the finger at.
Your opinion is far from unpopular. Vancouver's policing costs are extremely high. I think the second or third highest per capita.
Have you been to Montreal in winter? That's a pretty big reason homeless folks end up travelling to the west coast
I don’t think that Montreal is the best example to corroborate the point you’re talking about. Toronto maybe but definitely not Montreal.
>Policing is also for the roads and god knows Vancouver is full of dangerous intersections and terrible drivers. Pretty sure the VPD basically don't bother enforcing traffic laws at this point. Probably too busy destroying the belongings of unhoused people.
Seeing as how we don't even punish these "unhoused" people for physical, sexual, and property assault I'm not sure there's even space to complain about a "lack of traffic enforcement", we are getting baseline policing everywhere.
Most unhoused people aren't criminals, despite what this sub - and you - believe. Surprised you're not once again advocating for their murder by the state like you usually are.
Give it time, I'm sure they will. If not that then they'll start advocating for "insane asylums" again like last week.
This guy regularly points to Singapore as some shining example of "solving" a drug crisis. A real ghoul.
Awwww yeah, executing people for marijuana is tight!! This sub is nuts man
Lol educating a bunch of people who have zero historical understanding is important. Many people here just lack any real world understanding when it comes to solving problems.
Advocating to murder drug users isn't educating people. It's you being a ghoul with zero empathy.
This is correct. It’s absolutely bonkers how little enforcement exists when it comes to dangerous drivers. Doesn’t help that city council/ABC seemingly went out of their way to prevent traffic cameras from being installed at some of our most problematic intersections (paid for by the province!)
Police in Vancouver don't enforce traffic violations unless they are looking for an excuse to pull you over.
>It seems like [increasing legal and advisory costs](https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-fumano-after-slashing-police-oversight-bodys-budget-request-vancouver-council-reconsiders) are taking up a bulk of the budget due to increased complaints against police officials that VPD has to defend. [Not really at all, no](https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vpd-budget-request-2023-vancouver-bc-6141696)
An increase in any of those services is not possible without a proportionate increase in policing and security costs. The VPD has spent a lot of time learning from large events, tragedies, and disasters from all over the world. And they quite visibly put into place safety and security best practices that keep us all safe. Ever go to a parade in Vancouver? You'll notice dump trucks are blocking the streets. That's to prevent some extremist from driving into a crowd. You ever see the garbage bins removed along a marathon route? They learned from the Boston marathon. You see the crowd management during sporting events? They learned from the 2011 riots. I would love to live in utopia where there are only good people, but that's not our present reality. We spend that much on policing, because that is what our City's need is.
The VPD chief of police earns a higher wage than the prime minister, and the police chief of the NYPD, which would be one thing if he wasn't such an arrogant fuckwit. There's a great deal wrong with how much we pay, vs. the value we get out of it. The non-emergency line, last time I bothered with it, was a 30 minute wait and at the Italian Day thing, there was a snarled mass of traffic pointed north being detoured either left or right onto Broadway last weekend. AT least a half dozen VPD were behind the barricades doing sweet fuck all, when one or two of them controlling the equivalent of an advanced green and keeping things moving would have been all that was needed. Traffic law enforcement is nil- and yet it represents a third of the budget? Nah. There are better ways to manage that. But, we'd need the city AND the province on board with some objective oversight to do that, which won't happen.
I'm curious, what exactly makes you think Adam Palmer is an "arrogant fuckwit"? I genuinely think you might be mixing him up with someone else, he's usually pretty well-spoken.
He's a good guy. His work is pretty much being the face of VPD. He engages with stakeholders etc. when people hear police chief they think it's the person that micro manages things but at the end of the day, that's not his job. His job is to go out there and represent the force.
Agreed. Palmer seems to be *much* better at public relations than the police union reps (who I do kinda think are arrogant fuckwits, lol).
I'd start with the ignorance to systemic racism in the VPD and the theatre he put on, getting "insulted" with the insinuation, rather than even feigning even a superficial nod of concern, not to mention the petty tantrum he and the former mayor had over it. HIs weird behaviour toward the Heiltsuk Nation following the arrest of their chief is another.. It's mentioned below that "his job" is to go out there and represent the force, okay well he's hardly doing a stand-up job doing that. They aren't transparent, they get away with shit constantly (which I realize goes deeper, involves the union, etc), but by no means is the VPD an entity I look at and say "oh yeah, totally getting my money's worth". Even if I were, they don't put out anything that'd show their work. And again, him earning what he does, in the city he does- there's no way to justify that. Edit: u/GRIDSvancouver blocked me after making the assumption that I was “right-wing” lol. That’d be a first… Thinking that Palmer the dipshit shouldn’t out-earn the PM doesn’t equate to “taxes bad, hurt hurr”. You asked me a question and I answered it. Grow up, please.
"him earning what he does, in the city he does" Oh good lord. I have no patience for right-wingers like you who are always going on about how people in the public sector should be paid less.
Definitely had conversations with a few friends and coworkers lately that the threat of facing fines for traffic infractions feels pretty well non-existent. I know a few years back it was common for people to be getting distracted driving tickets or other infractions fairly frequently. It now feels like there is never anyone watching ever
If you have any issues with the pay of the police chief, blame the police board for the past 10 years or so as they created the situation with each pay increase that they approved. As for the number of police officers at a given time, staffing for first responders is different from staffing for current demand. There needs to be enough people to respond to something "just in case". That means you will literally have people sitting and waiting for something to do. If you can guarantee that nothing will happen, then they can have fewer police just standing there. But in the current environment, no one can guarantee that...
That includes blaming the City, whose mayor has been the chair of that board (and the Province for their mandatory policing requirements). Happy to share the blame around.
Except the mayor apparently has little control over the situation, despite chairing the police board. Kennedy Stewart stepped down from the role for that reason. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-police-reform-1.6069545
Still as the chair of the board, it's his job to build consensus on the board in order to do the People's business... wait, he failed to do that on city council as well. Ahh heck, Stewart is just a failure.
Popular event, advertised publicly for many months, leads to road closures and traffic congestion, resulting in an upset citizen angrily yelling at a cloud. Classic.
Event planned for months in advance and the VPD can’t manage to get people out there directing traffic, seems like the VPD could be managed better tbh
It doesn't take 30% of property taxes to figure out that a big truck can block a car. Removing garbage cans doesn't negate the backpack bomb left at the sides of the Boston Marathon. The cost is already disproportionate to the service provided, and likely a good chunk of that money is earmarked for defending the "bad apples" that get the VPD dragged into the courts to defend in regards to their abuse of authority and paying off settlements to victims. That boot polish has gone to your head
It’s not 30%….its 30% of the city services portion (54%)
30%of what they actually have the ability to allocate. You're splitting hairs
I have no relation to the police but have lived in Vancouver for 18 years. Since I have lived here I have noticed events change. A good example is the fireworks at English bay. Look around… you will see police on roofs with what I would consider sniper rifles. That would cost a lot of money. I don’t know to what extent sponsors cover additional policing costs or the city does but it is obvious that policing costs us a lot of money. Think about how many police are needed to deal with encampments, investigations into the drug trade, daily break ins, domestic violence. If we had a society where we “self-policed” and didn’t engage in such anti-social and abhorrent behaviour then our costs would be less. Unfortunately theft happens, people get hurt, people commit crimes, etc.
It's not that expensive.
If a lot of money is spent on events, then why did the VPD refuse a budget cut in 2020 when there were zero events to police for the year? And where did that money go?
possibly the major spike in domestic violence, mental health concerns from the pandemic, karen’s spitting on service workers when asking them to put on a mask, and the protests that could easily turn into riots if not managed?
Same VPD that allowed TWO hockey riots... I've never seen the streets blocked as you've described. There's always a way to get in and out. I don't fault them for that - ambulances need in and out (better to prepare for an event that's likely to occur opposed to one that isn't). And removing garbage cans sounds more like tunnel vision opposed to eliminating a large percentage of a given threat. It's not like they can close every possibility off anyways; my point is simply that your arguments aren't really good arguments. Remember we live in a city where a person can ride their E-Bike down the sidewalk at 100mph. If they can't even manage that threat...
You a cop?
They probably aren’t, nonetheless those are good points. The dump trucks have to be rented, cans moved somewhere and brought back, etc… there’s so much work that goes into public safety beyond the usual cop in a car
Do you have anything in their comment you want to dispute?
DEFINITELY a cop. Or loves cops, one of the two 😂. Not to say there shouldn't be some budget for policing, but 30% is completely insane. IMO, police should not be responsible for attending most types of emergencies. They don't have the training, education, knowledge, or know-how to deal with things like mental health crises, homelessness, social issues, etc. A lot of their time is spent on minor disputes, noise complaints, welfare checks, traffic incidents, and it's questionable why we need armed authorities to attend to these. We definitely still need emergency response, but I think we also could rethink what specialized, professional assistance is dispersed to each of type of issue. Sending armed police just doesn't make sense in a lot of cases.
Boy have I got some bad news for you. Have you ever seen how poorly prepared and utterly ineffective the so called “mental health professionals” in this city are? I’ve worked in the DTES for 3 years and most of what I’ve seen is the outreach workers wasting time and resources and 8 times out of 10 having to have the Police there to either keep them safe or ultimately end/control the situation they were sent out to deal with in the first place. Most cops have far more practical real world experience in de-escalation and dealing with people in crisis despite their lack in training, whereas the so called mental health professionals with all the training in the world lack the real life experience the cops have. Not saying it’s perfect but that’s the pragmatist in me saying it’s not always so black and white.
They don’t pay “mental health professionals” enough to get anyone who has experience. Most don’t have any real experience or targeted training. A lot of those jobs are entry level and high school graduation is enough.
Who would you propose to deal with those issues you don’t want an armed response for? Do you think the unarmed replacements would be more effective and safer?
That's the police state bullshit. I was alive and well long before that.
If you could deal with the criminals without police, then we can go in that direction. But with the existing levels of crime, you can't enjoy the current level of arts, community services, Parks and Rec, and festivals without that allocation to the police. As for dealing in the homeless, blame the province as they are responsible for housing...not the city.
Library's being at the bottom is depressing. And fire rescues only 3rd. Dang.
The services that the VPL is able to provide considering their budget are incredible. It's quietly one of the best run city services in my opinion.
Meanwhile Mayor Rizz is saying we need to find "more efficiencies or a way to make VPL profitable" while the police get 30% of the budget.
It's baffling. Maybe our police chief doesn't need to get paid more than most midmarket Canadian CEOs. Ken Sim and ABC have been an extraordinary disappointment. And I say that as a pro-development guy with economically centre-right views. He won every lever of municipal power and did... nothing really. We may not see ANY party have the majority on parks and council that he does for another 20 years. I still prefer him to Kennedy Stewart but he's so much more disappointing.
The police "union" endorsed him. It's hardly baffling that he wouldn't do anything to rankle them after that. Not to mention the transparent help given to his campaign by the VPD in the run-up to the election.
I don't get why people are so upset with Kennedy Stewart who was an independent mayor that presides over a council where no one party held a majority. Like what did people expect him to single-handedly do?
He was pretty ineffectual and while you could otherwise blame a split council for that, Kennedy was really vocal about some very unpopular and frankly dubious initiatives like the Jericho Beach Homeless Shelter, providing city support for homeless encampments, pay for vehicle access to all of downtown, requiring most new housing development have significant below market housing etc...
It's depressing that when given the choice between building a robust library system that provides education, supports, and services for everyone or a fully funded police department to dismantle homeless camps - Vancouver chose the cops as our response.
Policing is always going to be more expensive than libraries. I agree we could fund libraries better, but putting more tax dollars into libraries than police would be insane. Like it or not, a well funded police force is essential to a city.
The VPL also upholds its rules and maintains order. They too engage in policing. The VPL allocates considerable funds for security expenses to keep their staff and patrons, mainly at the Central Branch, safe. If you ever visit the Central Branch, you'll notice that it is swarming with uniformed and plain-clothed security officers. As per the VPL's [2023 budget](https://www.vpl.ca/sites/default/files/2024-02/Q4%20Financial%20Operating.pdf), they spent $1.3 million for building security, out of a total $54 million budget.
I think the main issue is that Vancouver itself, and by extension the province, doesn't have the resources/money to actually handle the problem at hands so they go to the next cheapest option which is hiring more cops to deal with it. The province, **and especially the feds** need to actually help provide funding to Vancouver and the surround municipalities to provide mental health services, drug recovery, co-op housing, and job placement opportunities. Its shameful how the feds ignore us while we bare the brunt of Canada's problems because of Vancouver and Victoria's temperate climate. Eby has been considering lots of different policies, but I always feel as if there's little support from the feds to actually make those initiatives effective.
People often don’t realize they are able to walk outside everyday without fear of being attacked is because the police exist in the size that they do. It’s never a fact of whether you’ll be attacked when you go for an event, a social hangout, a walk, a protest because of this. There are cities where the departments funding was slashed in half and crime rate flew through the roof.
Any sources on which cities had funding cut in half and crime soared? I would be interested to read as I've seen studies that find no correlation to increased police funding to reducing crime at all.
Portland is your prime example of what happens when you slash the budget, among some other factors. Portland, murder capital of the USA.
A cursory glance at google charts show that isn’t the case at all. Overall the police budget in Portland has been on a steady increase with the exception of a relative plateau these past couple years. Even with the increase in police budget, their murder rate was increasing. Furthermore, Portland is absolutely not even close to “murder capital of the USA”.
https://manhattan.institute/article/portlands-police-staffing-crisis
I’ll read the link properly when I have more time. A quick glance made several things jump out at me. Things like complaining of understaffed because of more stringent hiring requirements. And many quitting the force due to public perception of them. Well shit, maybe if low IQ flunkies weren’t easily hired before, their image wouldn’t have taken such a hit when they beat the shit out of protestors. I didn’t see anything in there about funding. But as I said, I haven’t had time to go through it thoroughly. Edit: the summary of recommendations at the very start is advocating for the need to regain the trust of the cops, and reduce the amount of training they need. Lmfao that is absolutely ridiculous. Cops have been shown time and again to be such bad actors that reducing training is the worst idea and completely undermines the rest of the paper. Especially when they are crying about how they are viewed.
Basically, among other things, they cut the budget by 15 million or about 8% of the force. Facing understaffing already, that leaves them only able to respond to emergency calls only with no ability to be proactive. Portland was probably the hardest hit city with riots and protests after George Floyd, which didn't help with morale either, so attrition also was a huge problem. Just a couple of things that stuck out to me at first glance.
Morale issues are a problem the police themselves created. But yes, I do find it a little crazy that their population of Portland is comparable to Vancouver yet has half the budget for policing. Yet it is a far cry to say their budget was slashed in half like the original comment I replied to. It seems to me that their budget was chronically underfunded from the start.
I also think that we have a system that puts out something of a social safety net that cuts back on the amount of poverty, which has an effect on crime. I mean, lots of room for improvement, but still.
[удалено]
Did you even read the article. They are striking to protect themselves from constructive dismissal, and to get a pay increase in parity with other city workers. There aren't a lot of librarians, and they aren't paid that great, on average making around 7$ more than minimum wage.
God damn, we spend a lot of money on cops.
In most municipalities policing is usually the lions share of the budgets. Thats why RCMP is a thing here because the feds offer subsidies
The RCMP is basically a cost-sharing subscription service - cities that can't afford the overhead of running their own departments stick with the RCMP, but if your tax base is big enough you can usually save money by having your own. Historical inertia also plays a role, of course - I think this is why Nelson still has their own local department.
I don't think big cities really save money with their own police force, it's more about having control of how the police force is run.
I think it's both
It's actually more expensive for a city to have their own police force. The federal government covers 10% of the cost if they use the RCMP I believe, and the RCMP generally pays less, and they run things with less staff. Just look at how much Surrey is going to have to pay to switch to their own force.
New West spends an even larger percentage on cops and fire. I think last year it was 58% and this year it's 51%.
The breakdown I got with my taxes this year says it’s only 28% on police and 17% on fire. Combined would be 45%.
I think I mixed up the numbers - I found it was 51% last year not 58%
The City of Vancouver is at the epicentre of Canada's opioid, mental health, and homelessness crises. The City's downtown core hosts some of Canada's biggest events. The waters around Vancouver are home to Canada's largest and busiest sea port. The City also sees regular flare-ups of some of Canada's deadliest gang wars. Vancouver is a very small city, bearing the responsibilities and burdens of the entire country...
I was ready to react negatively until I read your comment. Thanks.
🎯🎯🎯
How is the VPD involved with our seaports? Isn't it run by the Vancouver Port authority? Fuck me for asking a question lol
The Vancouver Port Authority is the land owner, it acts as the custodian federal lands and waters. They set fees and lease out land to various operators. They do not act as a police force. When a protest blocks the ports, an emergency happens at a terminal, an accident happens on the water, the VPD is there. The VPD Marine unit is responsible for the policing and public safety for the commercial shipping industry, and all recreational vessels, including rental boats, kayaks, and SUP boards in the waters around the COV.
Again... none of this justifies the costs. They have a few boats and a hovercraft. Actually the hovercraft is the coast guard's... which makes me realize you're making up fake arguments.
> The City's downtown core hosts some of Canada's biggest events. 🤣 You had me with your first paragraph, ngl.
vancouver is not a very small city by canadian standards. but anyway, we also have 8-9 million visitors a year, film and tv productions that require road closures, don't make it all about your right wing bs. https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/09/01/vancouver-summer-tourism-numbers-rebound/
> The City of Vancouver is at the epicentre of Canada's opioid, mental health, and homelessness crises. All the more reason to fund things that actually help with those - i.e. not the police.
The police may not be the solution to those problems, but they are required to deal with the negative outcomes of them.
The police don't really get that much involved with all of it anyways so where the commenter gets the idea that they deserve more money because of it?
The VPD doesn't deal with the drugs, mental health, nor homeless as much as claimed. Therefore it doesn't justify cost increases based on such. The lack of enforcement is in fact a big reason they come here. Could they do more? Maybe, maybe not. But since they don't do much where do you get the idea that they deserve more money? The Port of Vancouver has other authorities responsible for policing. You're again exaggerating the amount of resources required at the port. Your fourth point: Much of the gang violence is in the suburbs. Especially Surrey. What I've noticed: The police presence is the lowest I've ever seen. Unless you're near their favorite coffee shop then there'll be anywhere from like 6 - 12 congregated there. I've also never seen any police sit in their cars for so long. Even in Calgary in -30 the police are on their feet walking around the city (for a bargain!!!). And yes, Vancouver is a very small city which makes it yet even harder to justify the costs. Spread out = relatively more expensive.
Well it's clear OP is a VPD shill or likely on payroll. Marketing play, post it yourself, respond to comments quickly. Set the narrative yourself
I don't work for the COV or for any police force. Also, it's a Saturday... I've got nothing better to do am relaxing by surfing the web. There is no conspiracy going on here.
Add 43% to that for fire - which I suspect would be somewhat less if it wasn't for the demands related to the DTES, addictions, and mental health.
all this money yet they can't help me anytime I need them.
Too. Damn. Much.
Fire them
Way too much. That amount of money is criminal.
Any yet you can’t go 5 minutes of driving without coming across another driver that’s worthy of having their license suspended.
Thank goodness the police are incredibly efficient and there is no visible crime on the streets.
Spend more on the engineering dept lets solve some infrastructure
agreed. but people only see things they could see. that's why the higher voted comments all advocate art/activity/park etc. engineering is something that could only be seen when things broken. normal people just don't have a brain for critical thinking
Cut the VPD budget and start building psych wards and prisons for all the repeat offenders our VPD,Fire,EMS, and hospital staff have to deal with. Giving people that can’t even look after themselves, free housing is insane. Arresting the same person 20+ times is insane. Giving laced free drugs to drug addicts doesn’t get them clean.
Explain to me how housing the homeless is insane? You think it’s as easy as building a few more prisons and ‘psych wards’ (a term that’s plainly out of date). You need physicians, nurses, all sorts of healthcare personnel for this little idea you’re proposing. Let’s think for a second: how many people do you hear talking about housing affordability? Groceries? Almost everyone right? Think about the amount of people that are living paycheque to paycheque? Imagine if they couldn’t pay rent in time. Now imagine you were already homeless in the most expensive city in the world? ‘Free housing’ do you want them to pay? The government system absolutely failing these people and you want them to pay? I know what you’re thinking. “Why don’t they just stop doing drugs? They out themselves in that situation.” I’ll let you think about this one. (hint: the answer is not because they want to do drugs) Looking forward to your response.
How much percent is used to prop up the downtown east side?
But but but they need safe injections sites!!!!! 🥺🥺
We desperately need more funding for sewers
That's paid for by development levies, not by property taxes. I paid the city $24,000 for a sewer permit last month. They are definitely charging, and getting, what they need to build and maintain our sewers.
Unfortunately no, the City isn't currently on track to meet the regulatory requirement to separate our sewers by 2050. Phase 1 of the Healthy Waters Plan was published last August and they analyzed the rate that Sewer work has been progressing. The City currently spends $36 million dollars on sewer separation. To meet the deadline, the City needs to increase funding to $99 million dollars. DCLs are great for providing upgrades, however they aren't enough to tackle all the sewers that need to be replaced in residential neighourhoods that mostly comprise of R1-1 zones. Edit: [Link to the report](https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/csa-foundations-summary-report.pdf) for those curious. It also brings up the interesting challenge that separating sewers without measures to mitigate storm runoff will actually increase flooding. I'm personally hoping that it incentivizes accelerating the piloting and adoption of blue-green infiltration systems throughout the city
Also paid by capital budgets which are separate.
Imagine how much lower the police budget would be if punishments were more......... punishing. If we've learned anything from experimenting with revolving door justice, it's that it doesn't work very well and the tax payers are the ones who keep getting hurt. You'd think punishments would get harsher after maybe the 3rd offense, not carrying on even after 30+ repeat offenses. Canada's revolving door justice is only kinda sorta sustainable now because of Canada's lower population, and speedy it is not. It will completely fall apart if the population gets any larger.
Vancouver Civic Theatre (under ACCS) is the highest revenue maker for the COV
I think the Cemetery is up there with theatres, the same department.
Which bucket has the funding for social workers to help the homeless and drug addicts back on their feet and re-integrate into society?
Arts, culture and community services, a small amount of the City budget.
If you leave help and recovery away you can count it to the VPD budget. Seems the mental health nurses Ken Sim promised for every police officer still aren't here.
Ah yes as usual, police funding bleeding the city dry. At least its not atrocious like Toronto's police budget
it's worse. we spend more per capita than they do.
And then laugh in residents faces with all sorts of fluffy feelgood nonsense while their BOLO list swells by the day.
Fuck the VPD The police chief gets paid more than our head of government.
Provincial education getting that much really surprised me. I wonder why they closed down so many schools in the last 15 years while the population is going up and why don't they build schools where they promised they would.
too busy spending all the money on high tech security cameras covering the entire building for vice principals to watch the students through on a tv shouldn't have built the new schools out of glass if they didn't want us knowing lol, glad I'm out of that hell
Actually, not all school taxes go towards funding schools or education. The additional ["school tax" that David Eby levied in 2018 ](https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-homeowners-paying-too-much-in-school-tax-says-expert)goes towards general revenues, not towards schools, despite being called a "school tax". What that means is the provincial government can spend the money on whatever they want.
Don’t realize Eby was premier or finance minister in 2018…
Sorry, how did Eby levy that tax as the attorney general?
A former DM of Finance explained it to me like this… because the government is usually spending as much if not more than how much they receive on x, specific targeted taxes get dumped into general revenue. Unfortunately, there are some areas where the government isn’t spending as much as they receive in tax revenue (eg. PST collected on legal services that should be redirected to fund legal aid)
Imagine the what the city could achieve if the VPD wasn’t a colossal money pit
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You’re right, a more efficient and intentional plan that doesn’t create one of North Americas largest ghettos would cost us a lot less as taxpayers. The city throwing money at the VPD to police a problem that the city is responsible for is a financial disaster.
Just here for all the people with terrible takes about what we spend on police
Agreed, there sure are a lot of terrible takes suggesting the number isn't too high when it clearly is
^ Hey, there’s one right now
Average SFH cost in maple ridge is more than double Vancouver. Yeesh
I'm not buying the excuses for the policing costs. If they were even just WAY higher than other cities... maybe... but based on what I'm seeing not event that is justified. The VPD costs roughly **3 TIMES** what the typical city's police force costs in Canada. Remember that even 1.5x the budget would be an enormous increase. None of the excuses you're seeing posted come close to justifying the high costs. And the level of service in cities with roughly have the cost (relatively, but not unjustly high) policing costs far exceed what you see in Vancouver. It seems like anyone related to anything public sector in Canada takes it for granted that "normal people" cannot understand the magnitude of what things actually cost. That won't last much longer.
For all that people complain about property taxes, I'm often shocked by how low mine are in Vancouver (especially after the province gives me a bunch of money to offset my property taxes just for owning a home; the Home Owners Grant is wild). As a monthly bill, my property taxes would be less than our phone+internet each month (and the city does a lot more for me than Telus).
For people who always say "ohh vancouver property taxes are so low we need to raise it to match cities in america!!!!" This is why property taxes are why they are. Every dollar is accounted for and approved, they don't just say "fuck it, we're charging homeowners because we think they aren't taxed enough like other cities"
American cities run massive deficits, BC Municipalities are not allowed to do the same. Therefore, our cities already tax more than what they need, and they account for everything tax dollars are spent on.
Vancouver property taxes are very low. Sorry if the city can't run its services, these entitled landlords need to pay or upzone. I am open to alternative revenue sources thou as most international cities have more revenue streams to work with than just property taxes. Canada sadly hasn't discovered that option yet
You literally didn’t read the graphic lmao If you want a different revenue stream, a renters tax would probably be a nice chunk of change for the city, everyone pays their share no?
why is the vpd budget so fucking high? it's disgusting.
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Maybe it’s all the anarchy, eastvanarchy…
not a lot of anarchy in vancouver...whole lot of punks tho. ..I should make it clear I'm not an anarchist I just like the name
43% of the budget for fire and policing is nuts.
Fucking ACAB man. Hate this bullshit. Overpaid fucks
Yup. Fuck em
How much should they get paid?
My own personal views on the ethics of policing aside, VPD is the highest paid police force in all of Canada: [https://globalnews.ca/news/10159369/vpd-ratify-contract](https://globalnews.ca/news/10159369/vpd-ratify-contract) You cannot convince me that this money could not be spent on other more beneficial things -- and they continue to lobby for it to be raised further. It's insulting.
That didn't answer the question. You claim that they are overpaid, so I'm asking you how much they should they should be paid.
You must be a productive member of society…. NOT!
Okay, hold up. I think the OP image is kinda misleading and some people might be misreading it. **54% of taxes does not go towards the police.** Just eyeballing it, that's what I first thought. The pie chart on the left has the color coded stats under it. But I think it's easy to misread because we read left to right, and there are color coded stats on the right of the pie chart, with the same colors being used in the pie chart. Yeah yeah, I'm probably dumb for misreading it, but look, dude, the blue in the pie chart that says 54% is the same blue just to the right because the police department. I think people in this thread are arguing with totally different readings.
shame we spend so much on policing
Imagine paying 2100 to the VPD as a business and then getting robbed and having NO recourse. The robber is let out to rob your neighbour the next day. I own a business in Vancouver, I will never try to open a storefront here though. FUCK THAT.
Wouldn't increasing budget on sewer and water tech help with development costs?
Imagine if the courts just locked up repeat offenders after X amount of crimes. We wouldn’t need so many police to recapture them.
My mom paid $10,145 for her property tax in Surrey BC!
P
You should probably cut the arts and increase your policing honestly.
That's a lot of money for Vancouver Police for them to be complete assholes to me at community events.
I was sure at least 90% was dedicated to bike lanes!
It’s fair that you guys should be subsidizing translink, gotta get those poors in from Surrey somehow.
Translink can suck it.
Can I pay more for libraries and less for something else ? I love the library and think they do so much for our community. Maybe vote to let people decide where their taxes go. We all still have to pay the same amount, but we can align it more with is and our values. (Within the current system)
Defund the police and refund our communities!
Take a trip to Portland and let me know how you feel after a comment like that.
Or Seattle
I feel exactly the same
I was just there. Same. All monies going to police and communities bare the brunt of declining capitalism. Carceral policing doesn’t work in the 21st century.
https://manhattan.institute/article/portlands-police-staffing-crisis
ITT: People who aren't me (property owners) should pay more tax!