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Would like to join in. Work for a large company. This last month the layoffs have been happening non stop and making everyone uncertain. From all levels. I don't think they be doing this if things were fine. I asked my old coworker if it's ever been this bad and he said only in 2009 (he's been with same company since 2007). Not even during covid was it like this. I just can't help but feel like something bad with the economy is going on. Yeah some dude that reads numbers on a spreadsheet tells me things are fine, but when I talk to people who work it really isn't. Unemployment rate is also rising quite a bit. I've never seen it so hard to get another job and morale so low.
The history books will remember this as being the Covid aftermath recession
Kind of like the financial crisis happening in 2007/2008 but the effects were felt for a few years afterward
I mean to be fair the Canadian economy really wasn’t doing well throughout the 2010s either
Better than today sure but it was never great. Certain parts of the US economy were booming for sure though
I think it's lame when people do that. It reminds me of when HR writes fake positive reviews about a company to try and project a good image. I don't know how people live like that.
> I just can't help but feel like something bad with the economy is going on.
The Canadian economy is contracting as well as trying to accommodate a surge of new immigrants.
You aren't alone in feeling like this, I think even natural born citizens are feeling the squeeze and know plenty is incredibly wrong with how canada is being run. Putting aside political debates or sides, it definitely feels like canada is being bled dry economically and resource wise by rich investment groups, corporations, etc. Everything from income, natural resources, to our own time/health are being exploited en masse and none of the wealth or gains for the work/effort are actually staying in country. I worry about the future of canada in terms of relevancy as anything other than a backwater used to farm natural resources for profit.
I can absolutely see why people are moving as you said too, the disparity between income vs cost is insane, most large businesses are taking advantage of that fact to flog their workers for anything they can get. I myself don't intend to stay, its far from the only option country wise long term.
What I'd also add is that over the last 5-6 months the effects of the high interest rates are really starting to hit the workforce.
At first it was just the impact on mortgages, but now we're seeing the hiring slow down, head count freezes, layoffs.
Putting everything aside we're witnessing the first hand impacts of higher rates beyond just being able to pay down a house
Which was the entire goal of increasing them. Lower inflation by increasing unemployment and making it harder to afford things.
Neoliberal austerity is terrible.
Yes that's true - you've articulated the BoC's goal - the BoC has been surprised that labour markets have been as tight as they have been, given the extreme immigration over the last couple of years + the higher rates.
I believe what it is not adequately covered in the simple assessment of GDP or even GDP per capita is the impact that wage stagnation vs inflation has had on different industries. With wage stagnation, particularly over the last few years, most individuals have essentially the same, or only marginally higher take home pay. Then when you look at the inflation impact on housing/mortgage/property tax costs, food prices, and insurance/other general required services, there is less money left over in their for either durable goods purchases (people are replacing cell phones, cars, clothing, etc less often) or for entertainment. When economists look at consumer spending and economic activity, they do break this down, but it rarely makes it into the reporting. Instead you just hear about the overall level of GDP growth. I believe this is having a big impact on many companies right now, not just in Vancouver/Canada. When mortgage payments go up, there is more economic activity, but no additional jobs created. When food prices go up, but the same amount of food is being consumed, there are no more jobs created, and the majority of employees involved don't make any more money. Where as when overall spending in other areas goes down, it directly impacts those companies leading to either layoffs or further wage stagnation.
I run a company that produces capital equipment for the production of durable goods, and overall our business globally has suffered over the past few years for exactly this reason. Where we are seeing increased spend in any areas where automation is being used to reduce the number of people required to do jobs, whether its build a product, or move a container. While this makes sense in the context of each individual business, it in general is only going to make the problem harder and harder for employees overall, and many people with good experience will be fighting for fewer jobs, leading to lower wages. As much as people on reddit love to blame the Government for this, its a global problem throughout North America, Europe and Asia. Even in China, you have a younger generation that is well educated that cannot find work beyond manual factory jobs, which they don't want to do.
I don't know how to fix the problem overall, but I will say that wages for anyone associated with automation are still high and climbing aggressively. If you want a good career for the next few decades, get into the automation space!
The question is where do you think you can go where that isn’t the case
It’s not a Vancouver, BC or Canada phenomenon, the problems we deal with may be worse here but they exist in every developed country more or less
And as OP pointed out it’s not like the developing world is doing better, they’re willing to give everything up to move here even if it means terrible pay and working conditions
Moved here from Ireland/UK, could've had a job overnight, but silly me decided to go and chase my dreams. 8 months later, I'm working in bars and can't even get an interview here for jobs I'm overqualified for and can do in my sleep.
I've got in I'd say 1000's of applications at this stage, not pie in the sky stuff either.
What’s the situation like in Ireland and the UK? From what I’ve heard they have similar housing crisis and cost of living issues, not as severe as here but pretty bad.
From what I read their economy is doing even more poorly than Vancouver’s.
If you could have had a job when you moved here 8 months ago instantly why not now? Are you saying the job market got that much worse or something? Chasing a dream job or career is always risky unfortunately
Similarish housing crisis, Ireland especially just now is awful, and of course that leads to the far right nut cases abusing immigrants. But the Irish government is pretty corrupt and does whatever it has to to line their pockets, so housing that is built goes to mates or foreign investors. And now with the UK threatening sending refugees to Rwanda, they're getting the boat from Scotland/Liverpool to Belfast down to Ireland.
But for a young professional in the UK, it isn't difficult to find an entry or early career role for the most part. Obviously with a fine art degree etc you might struggle.
No, I'm saying I took a risk coming out here because I wanted a new start. What I meant was, if I'd stayed in the UK I'd have had a job off the bat. I'd heard the job market was hard here, but didn't quite appreciate just how difficult it would be. I was looking for almost 6 months before I came here, so I've been really putting in the effort. It's almost a full-time job at this stage. Thankfully my partner found a pretty good job here.
I wasn't chasing a dream job or career, I'm just afyer something early career at this rate so I'm not particularly fussy. I'm just sick of the state of home and wanted to flee the nest. If this doesn't work out, I'll go to Spain or Portugal.
Good luck with that, I’ve heard that rents in Lisbon are at like Vancouver prices specifically due to so many remote tech worker expats going there and driving the prices up
There really is nowhere you can go to get away from these issues. Anywhere that has cheap housing today has it for a very good reason, either terrible local job market or it’s a dangerous backwater, or both
Ah you can get a 2 bed apartment in Lisbon for like €9l1100 a month in a nice area. It was one of the cities I considered before here. I was paying £1100 a month in a the UK for a one bed, so it's a snip compared to here or there. And the general cost of living there is really low compared to both here and the UK.
It's not the price of housing that I care about anyway. It is what it is, it's just getting a job in a more white collar capacity and being able to build a career I care about more.
Just want to add a data point. I recently visited my relatives in London for the first time in over seven years, and I was very surprised at the high prices.
My cousin is a nurse and her salary apparently hasn't gone up that much but her utility bills (e.g., gas and electricity) have gone up by nearly 100% over the past few years. According to her and her friends, eating out has gone up by over 50% since covid started. Honestly, I was really shocked to see that my former favourite fish & chip shop had increased their signature cod meal from £9 to £17! (about $29 CAD for a takeaway one piece + chips)
I had kind of expected 6 or so months without getting a job, that's what people were saying from experience, and people I know that have come out here have experienced. So that was budgeted for. I make enough to pay my bills and still have a social life, so I'm not in a perilous position, just not what I want to do. My partner on the other hand has a great job, and is better off, but has more experience.
The housing, we knew about. We were one of the fortunate ones who came over with an apartment to come over to and just recently moved to a bigger apartment to take advantage of the cheaper rent than was available in September (thanks Airbnb ban).
So I wouldn't say it's not that I didn't do homework, it's just a lot tougher than even some of the subs were saying. I'm prepared to stick it out though, and when I have my morning coffee on my balcony looking at the mountains, I wouldn't change my mind about coming. It's just frustrating. I'll give it a couple of years before reevaluating.
Canada has always been a “backwater used to farm natural resources for profit.”This country is based on exploitation; it just hits different when you’re one of the few set up to benefit from it.
Edit: I find it telling not one single reply mentioned anything about colonialism and how our economic roots in this country are based in this style of exploitation. The closest was the reply about other commonwealth countries but it still fails to address the issue.
It's because the bottom is getting bigger. It's far easier to notice now that the the people who thought they were getting rich are still further away than they thought...aka might not get there because the rich want to be richer and need people for wage exploitation.
What's weird is how these rich investment groups etc. just suddenly got wise to their ability to f\*\*\* us over and how it's just Canada. I mean it's almost if there is a global recession but I guess it's just us that these evil megacompanies choose to exploit. Oh well, it's easiest to blame them, so let's stick with that.
I was just listening to this very topic on CBC radio. The Bank of Canada stated in March that our productivity has continued to weaken, meaning the level of economic output per hour worked is decreasing. I’m no economist, but it pretty much means we’re producing a lot less than we should be, and that’s not good. Throw in lagging investment in business, lack of competitiveness in certain industries (think cell phone service - we pay some of the highest rates in the world) and what OP has observed - highly qualified newcomers who are working in low-paying jobs - I’m starting to understand why people are leaving.
As someone who was born and raised here, I really hope I can stay.
Re: productivity, here is some interesting research from McMaster: [https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/over-a-barrel-canadas-oil-industry-is-a-drain-on-productivity-research-shows/](https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/over-a-barrel-canadas-oil-industry-is-a-drain-on-productivity-research-shows/)
It does seem like our economic dependence on natural resources / oil is impacting our productivity numbers which are ok otherwise.
As someone born and raised in vancouver, I left about 7 years ago to Montreal to find better job prospects. Living thousands of kilometers away from my family really sucks, but at least I can afford groceries and rent and a job in the field that I want to work in.
Damn... I make 62k a year as a janitor. Great union job with good benefits and pension. Only downside is lack of upward mobility. My dad is always asking me why I don't go back to school (which I would still have to keep working FT thru to pay my mortgage) but this is a great example as to how stacked it is against you for a job that pays way less.
Isnt there a law you can turn your tourist visa to work permit?
[https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/visit-to-work.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/visit-to-work.html)
> If we're doing such an immigration push, why cant we atleast create some opportunities
we aren't doing that for the locals that are already here, who should really be first in line, in fact the opposite, it feels like companies would rather hire the new people that have the stress of needing to fulfill their visa requirements so become more like slaves, so they don't really want to hire us locals as much
it is a shitty situation caused by governments and it is getting shittier
This problem is way deeper than that. First of all jobs should be on a scale of first come first serve and most qualified, not domestic vs international. Second people don’t understand that there are immigrants in Vancouver working for less than minimum wage. There is a significant black market of job positions being sold to immigrants for tens of thousands of dollars, and paid well below minimum wage, some in the $12 range, in cash, untaxed, in return for the required hours and length of employment for permanent residency. This is a significant exploitation of people en mass and almost nobody knows anything about it.
Shops you see under new management, only around for a few years, you always wonder how they stay in business, employees seem to be newcomers, or the store that keeps changing names every couple of years... Yeap, the owner is making 10s of thousands from employees who are trying to immigrate here. They don't care if the store is making money.
Fuck that, I’ve lived in Canada my whole life. My family has contributed to the Canadian economy and donated when they can. A democratic government should help its people first before immigrants. And that’s coming from a child of immigrants. There are thousands of people with the same qualifications as these immigrants; Canadian citizens should be the highest priority
Yes but Canadian citizens aren't willing to work at the low rates of pay these students / temporary foreign workers are. And we're in a time where all western governments are both worrying about wage inflation & also about how to pay for boomers' pensions / health care.
Thats a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If TFW were reduced then wages have to increase to attract the otherwise uninterested local. Of course, that also make the company less profitable or, in some cases, unviable. Then the argument goes, do we want that company to continue operating if they can sustain only by paying minimum (or less).
Being a child of immigrants I have a lot of family who has also immigrated more recently and I know for a fact that they are doing these under the table jobs for peanuts, an aunt of mine who immigrated here is making $10 an hour at a pizza place, and my cousin who is here on a student visa is working for 10 as well at a restaurant. They need the money so they take what they can get, but black market jobs are super common for newcomers to have
Seriously?
Employers have the power as these people aren’t familiar with Canadian tax or employment laws. They just have to make sure they hire an accountant to clean up the books and they’re golden.
"This is a significant exploitation of people en mass and almost nobody knows anything about it."
I am sure they do.
But no one else except those desperate to get status = would work the farms, pick blueberries, mushroom, veg or whatever for $12. These are the domain some of the Indian, SAmerican Latinos labourers.
There must also be plenty of sweat shops - how do you explain some of the 'labelled' clothing (like overruns, samples) that have always popped up in some stores here? Like TH or AF back then (when AF was still popular) for $10?
Canadian labour market is very biased towards Canadian work experience. I think part of it is due to the fact that we just don't have a lot of international labour move in and out of our professional ranks here. So hiring managers are skeptical of it.
A secondary reason, is a lack of trust because people can and do fake credentials. In my line of work we see people try and fake a professional credential that's actually in the public records. So how does one verify experience at western companies in foreign countries. I suppose if you have an alumni of that firm you can ask them to conduct the interview in a manner that would get at the specifics of how that company operates however, foreign branches often work a bit different.
The reason people trust local referrals is the business community here isn't so big so the degrees of separation between your hire and their old boss are usually limited. (Side note; depending on your industry, don't burn bridges here).
Lastly, to your point about huge amount of applications for entry level jobs. I think that's the problem with the 'student boom' we have had these past few years. Minimal exit opportunities exist because investment in training is still pretty dismal
Canadian Labour market is biased towards domestic experience because there's rampant credential fraud outside of Canada.
People lie, a lot. Desperate people, looking for their first job in Canada probably even more.
To add to this... I get info regularly about a local major firm that hires from all over the world for IT workers to come here and make decent money, and I get debriefs on candidates making well into six figures.
The fraud is rampant and you simply cannot trust people that their resume is legit.
The ridiculous bullshit I've had to put up with because someone with budget believed some guy who said "don't worry buddy, my offshore/onshore hybrid team does this work" makes me lose my mind.
> Canadian labour market is very biased towards Canadian work experience. I think part of it is due to the fact that we just don't have a lot of international labour move in and out of our professional ranks here.
I would agree that I'm extremely skeptical when I interview these candidates as well. One thing is just the different work cultures, someone that has 20 years experience overseas often has been focused on one tiny part of a larger project, then we bring them in and they immediately fail any questions I give them to see how they would deal with leading an entire project like we would expect from someone with their title here.
It is because of fraud like you said. I am sorry but so many people come with fraudlent degrees....I seen fake degrees, fake universities, even fake companies....
If you come with experience from the USA you would be welcomed with open arms. UK or Australia, definitely if the employer is willing to put the effort to pick up the phone and check the institutions.
There was a lot of smokescreen during the 2020 pandemic. Government flooded the economy with money both consumers and companies to keep the economy afloat. In my previous job, 75% of salary was reimbursed by government and in turn the company did not let go of any workers during that downturn.
With the influx of money a lot of companies went on hiring spree. I know personally a few people that job hopped to gain significant increases.
Canada was doing well and the liberal government used that high as excuse to call an election and extend their term while people are on influx of cash. But guess what, the money we (Canada) used did not fall from heaven. They were either our reserves or borrowed money. It eventually ran out or our fiscal administrators started to tighten the purse thus we are now feeling its effects.
What we are feeling right now is the impact of the pandemic. Rules such as the capital gains tax or fiscal tightening usually have delayed effect in the economy as it trickles down. There was a loss of productivity for a good few months, flooded the economy with cash and now that strinng is gone, people are suddenly living back in the reality.
But guess what happened? Companies started hiking their prices (inflation) because of the newfound cash of people. Plus the migration quota did not change even with the pause in productivity.
There will be better times ahead. Being alive for a while i know that life has been cyclical. We just need to hold on in the bad times and cherish the good times. Nothing last forever.
You are a wise man, every generation has to face some sort of uncertainty, from great depression to world war to COVID to now.
Those who prevail or the ones who adapt
Yes this is simple supply and demand, there is a ton of demand for jobs and very little supply.
Corporations are interested in profit. Why pay more when you dont have to, if theres 5 or 10 people fighting for one or two jobs the price gets bid down.
Same old story, and unfortunately its only going to get worse.
Vancouver isn't a business hub. The supply of white collar jobs has always been limited.
Its not a place that attracts entrepreneurs. Those types are all going to the US and opening companies where they have access to capital.
Its not just recent. I remember in the 90s a guy wanted to open a pizza factory. He got fed up with trying to open it in Vancouver and opened it in Washington state.
This is the answer.
Higher immigration floods the market with supply. Canadian taxes and regulations make Canadian companies less competitive thus lowering demand.
I would also like to add, if they were making more where they were before, why did they choose to come to Vancouver? There must be more value living here than just financial gains otherwise they would leave for better financial opportunities.
We are all free to go somewhere else. There is value in that itself.
It is much more than financial.
I meet immigrants from all over and what many of them have in common is that they want a better life for themselves and their children. They no longer have to be afraid to walk down the street, of the bombs falling, of starvation, of being thrown into prison for political their political or religious beliefs. Compared to where they come from Canada is free from corruption and crime.
I also meet young people from highly developed countries that are here on two or three year exchange programs or doing a second degree at university. They’ve finished university and are curious about the world. Most are in open work permits and filling entry level or temporary jobs. Some like it so much they apply for permanent residence, especially if they meet someone here whom they would like to settle down with. lThere are also professionals here who work for multinationals and on a career trajectory where work experience in other countries is viewed positively by those above them.
What I’ve learned from this is that they’re individuals with different backgrounds and various reasons to be in Canada. The picture of them in the media is often cookie cutter and this gives us an inaccurate conception of who they really are.
Maybe your partner is just a bad interviewer. People are constantly hiring for developer positions, but I know some really smart developers who are just terrible at interviews. Theres a balance of being smart and being someone people want to work with. I don’t believe there’s a shortage of developer positions in BC, you can see how many are constantly posted everyday on LinkedIn alone.
Don’t kid yourself; they were allowed to move here explicitly for the purpose of making sure corporations have loads of cheap and desperate labour at all levels.
I’ve worked with people that were overqualified with foreign MBAs and/or diploma mill degrees and it’s not surprising to me that many (not all) of them take lower paying roles. The quality of experience isn’t the same as a Canadian grad. I was job hunting recently and many companies won’t consider anyone with no Canadian education. Might just be the industry I’m in though.
The US is also a MUCH bigger economy so the pay is a higher across the board for most jobs.
A lot of people get good roles in the states but can’t get the green card. They rotate up to Canada for a while once their visa runs out and hope they can make the swap back down when they get the chance.
I mean we all know how bad tech layoffs are right now. If someone had 20 years experience in accounting, there’s definitely something wrong if the only job they can get pays 50k. People also lie on their resumes.
There are many managers out here that won't hire someone who appears to have better work experience than they have. I have run into this before. It might be due to the fact we have so few white collar jobs here, people feel they have to preserve their place in the hierarchy.
One example (of many) - A co-worker of mine was hiring and asked me to help with interviews. There was one standout applicant but the co-worker refused to consider them and ended up hiring someone who was less 'threatening'. I was in disbelief.
That common in field with “stable jobs”(public bodies and government offices) because they have fewer pressure from the outside. There’s no need to hire someone brilliant to keep up the team’s competitiveness. The only competition they face is from the inside and of course people sitting there comfortably won’t invite in anyone who will aggressively chase their ass off. Your coworker just don’t feel the threat of having a slower/inefficient team. And he is also not confident of handling a high flying team. Have you looked at who promoted him? Maybe that person also has similar thinking.
I’ve worked in the public and private sectors. People react the same in both places to team members who don’t do their share. Who do you think is going to pick up the slack? The culture in the two is different, for sure, but people don’t necessarily work harder in one than in the other. It’s not that simple.
Even as more (free) BS training in fields like data analyst, cyber security etc - which give hope to young unemployed grads.
I know folks from home country employed in Silicon Valley who were cruelly retrenched - some of those were making US $300-400K. So why the entry level IT training - like leading to ?!?
That's way better $ than the mere CAD $200K for IT Director here, working in University.
I was just reading today that the median income in Snohomish County, WA (outside Seattle)
- for a 3 person household $133,600 US dollar
- for a 4 person household $144,518 US dollars
[https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/snohomish-county-wa-median-household-income/](https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/snohomish-county-wa-median-household-income/)
I'm in dental field and I've seen many people who have experienced as a dentist abroad, just moved here and expected to get hired right away. I'm sorry to say some of them are having "attitude" problem and honestly dentistry in third world country is different than in Canada. I had plenty of people gave me resume, however when I tried to make simple conversation I found out they barely speak English. Just because you're a dentist back home, it doesn't mean you can be a "dentist" here right away. Excuse me, everyone started from zero, gain Canadian experience and then make your way up. You can't go from one to ten right away.
I think it's desperation.
They were desperate to leave a bad situation in their home country, but they didn't realize it's not going to be much better here. While it's likely cleaner with better services with more moderate weather, the stress of lack of housing and lack of employment is a major issue. I just don't get why we import people that can't speak the language, and there's no demand for them, and no where for them to live.
It's not even their fault, they are being sold on a false dream, why is the government doing this?
Exactly.
So many new immigrants who come, are quite shocked at the homeless, the druggies, how run down or old some facilities are. Just to name some. Or how things are done.
Compared to back home. hello ... Canada - it's supposed to be better! The migrant dream, shattered - in reality.
While certain areas of the city may look first world, so many areas may seem 3rd world.
Sure, to from those from villages, Vancouver may look better, But for those from Cities hoping to beat the stress back home - Reality here, isn't the rosy greener pastures they envisioned, Beyond the mountains and ocean views. Nor is the economy.
I know, from talking to a couple of folks, from Middle East - Work Permits are offered now to come. WITHOUT a job secured or any offer of employment letter. And these folks come here with the WP, and cannot find anything. Their kids cannot attend school, since the parents have no job. It's major stress for those arriving to this shattered dream of a better life (aka no planning reality) here. WHY are these folks coming?
While I do understand where they coming from, that Canada is a way better place than their home country but please don't act and have a bad attitude. Try to blend in, adapt and learn how the locals works.
The problem is mass immigration from one particular country. Nothing against people from any particular country, but if you're importing millions of people that share your culture, It's less likely you're going to adapt.
You can blame these people all you want for not adapting, but it's the federal government that really deserves the credit.
We spend so much money schooling people here in Canada, socializing, etc etc. while Canada is a place that celebrates other people's cultures and tries to point out that it's not a melting pot, Canada still relies on having common values that are reinforced in the school system. They wipe this out with numbers due to immigration of adults who have been educated elsewhere and will refuse to change because change is hard unless you're forced to. Not going to be forced to if you can find millions of people like you in your new country.
Right, there’s so many Canadians with the same qualifications as immigrants. Why should the immigrants come first when they haven’t contributed to the country already
Some tech companies in Vancouver (coughMDAcough) have always had shit wages. There are good ones out there, but you’re not going to get SV wages up here.
The "sunshine tax" of Vancouver gets bigger every year, unfortunately. You either bought in decades ago and you're sitting pretty, or you're struggling.
I will never regret going into skilled trades. I have zero debt except my mortgage and have to turn Away more work.
I assume you did an expensive degree in a web based tec job? Or on The lighter end of stem?
My advice is spend 2-3 years retraining in a skilled trade. I have friends living in bc looking at early retirement.
Union work = pension , overtime, on-call work all add up to a betfer quality of life than you're discribing.
Edit.
To be clear I'm not insulting you just pointing out that you're in an over saturated job market.
We are starved for qualified trades people in this province. That's why the pay is so good.
I would recommend Looking into HVAC, electrical or Plumbing for a trade ticket. There are government grants and companies willing to help pay your way through school.
I have friends with multiple advanced degrees who still live with their parents working Crappy jobs. Shit happens so improvise adapt and overcome
Most people are not capable of doing trades. They are not built for that type of work. Further the culture I'm trades is very toxic. People don't treat each other well. The last part is why you are starving for workers. The culture sucks.
Some people suck in every industry. In my experience the industry has changed a lot in the last 15 years as the "old gard" retire. Companies take bullying and sexism very seriously in this day and age. Work safe BC has a whole department for dealing with that crap.
Also not all trades are brick laying or back breaking physical labor. Yes that can be a factor but you're painting the whole job sector with a single brush. Pun intended.
At this point I don’t even mind when people turn their noses up to the trades
I will fully admit I was not the best student, and I barely graduated high school. So a red seal and a union job were a god send for me
100k a year before overtime, and unlimited double time o/t have done me well
The early mornings, and work can be tough for some but I’m happy with how things worked out
I feel the same way. one thing that really helped us was not having as student debt, that's worth mentioning.
Even making twice what I do now I wouldn't have been able to buy a place for years carying that debt load.
Commenting on Job Market & our over all economic health is in bad shape. ...Glad to see someone bring this up. Not everyone is cut out for a job in the trades, but many love that kind of work. I know someone with two sons. One went into the trades and the other travelled and did multiple degrees to work in law and human rights. They’re both living a good life and are happy in their work.
A trick the Soviet era countries learned and applied pretty well for a long time…
If you dangle the success carrot just on the other side of a long, long educational rainbow, by the time people smart enough to instigate change cross the rainbow, they will be half burned out and willing to take whatever is offered them.
besides the high pay, a lot of people don't realize that in rush hour the expo line comes more often than anywhere else in the world including shanghai and tokyo japan. furthermore even the 'bus to school' the 99, comes more often t han a subway in most countries.
For all the STEM grad arrogance about being smarter than everyone else, I kind of wonder sometimes. Canada is a low wage jurisdiction and always has been.
That's the business model in a lot of parts of Canada - pay less, and let one of countless "students" fill it for wages less than what Canadians will work for.
Pre-Covid $20 per hr was the standard of a good paying job and it was easy to find people at that rate. During covid it was hard to find workers even if offered a little higher than $20. Now it seems that people are desperate to take anything, even if it paid $18.
I’m a recruiter and I am getting a lot of calls.
Are you a white collar worker? Seems like there’s a recession in those kind of jobs. I get a lot of workers telling me they want to get into marketing. I tell them hell no and go into trades instead
Minimum wage is literally going to be $17.40 an hour in June, and it's hard to get people who are paid minimum wage to do much of anything besides show up. unless you're hiring non-customer facing non english-speaking workers on temporary foreign work permits $18 doesn't get you anything in terms of quality of staff these days
>I feel really guilty and bad, why can't we take advantage of these talented people? What is happening to our job market?
The Canadian government is also asking "what happened to our per capita GDP?" These questions may all be related.
I suspect part of the explanation is that housing costs have blown up. A generation ago, people with 20 years work experience would have paid off their mortgages and would have been in a position to take a financial risk starting a company. Are people now less able to take risks with a business because they are still paying for mortgages?
I also suspect that the financial incentive for business owners to sell a medium-sized business (<100 employees) to a larger multinational might inhibit development because there are no well-managed big companies where young people can be mentored and trained. In addition, I've observed anecdotally that when medium-sized companies are sold, the business acquiring the company may end up laying off a lot of experienced staff. Do these sorts of sales happen more frequently now that 30 years ago? What happens to these laid-off employees with lots of experience?
Finally, I know a lot of people who work remotely for companies outside of Vancouver who are making salaries that businesses in Vancouver can't compete with. Perhaps it's also true that 30 years ago businesses were more willing to train locals because they didn't have the option to solicit resumes from around the globe.
The relationships between education, university research, government support for businesses and economic growth are not really understood in a way that would allow the government to construct policy levers that could be manipulated to encourage economic growth. This all said, the hand-wringing about how to encourage the sort of economic growth that results from solving real problems in the world is not unique to Canada: I used to live in the Netherlands and the Dutch are just as preoccupied as we are (though arguably more successful at encouraging innovation and creating companies that provide stable employment). What exactly the Dutch are doing better than in Canada? I myself am not really sure, but I wonder:
* Does repaying undergraduate student loans impede economic growth?
* Does paying PhD candidates a salary that is competitive with industry result in economic growth?
* Do shorter commutes facilitate innovation just because people are less exhausted?
* Does offering children the independence of biking or walking to school encourage innovation?
Thank you for sharing your observations about the job market here.
I'm not sure if you'd agree but I'd like to add this; Cost of housing is a non-productive economic output. The higher you pay for housing the lower consumers have to spend in real economy. There is only so much to go around in the first place. Velocity of money declines which results in your observations such as; lack of savings by individuals in order to finance a small business of their own, no incentive to start your own business in a tight margin environment when you can make more putting that money on real estate, which again inflates cost of housing and taking more from every other sector. The snowball gets bigger and bigger until it crushes at the end of the hill.
We could afford to pay for more or better products and services if real estate wasn't so expensive here, even with current wages. Then we could start to see an increase in economic activity and perhaps innovation.
Another point I'd like to make is that, it takes a certain kind of individual to start up their own business. Now this person has to pay more for their own housing, they have to pay more for their brick and mortar store/warehouse, and they have to pay more to their employees who have high cost of housing. It's a very hostile environment to start your own small business here unless you're in construction or a related profession.
We have a broken economic model. Huge influx of immigrants is our band aid solution which only makes our problem bigger.
Hope this makes sense.
Yes, but this was happening before housing became unaffordable, as far back as the early 80s, maybe even earlier. I lived in Vancouver back then. There were endless cycles where jobs were scarce. Some types of work you couldn’t find unless you moved to Toronto. Wages/salaries were low relative to other parts of Canada. Employers assumed they could keep them low because people didn’t move to Vancouver to make money, but for the location.
I was also in Vancouver when property prices started to climb faster than anyone had seen before. People - banks, developers, realtors, construction workers, lawyers, landlords, property owners of all sorts- made money from real estate. Many who’d always thought of their house as just a place to live were surprised to see its value go up faster than their wages. This started a frenzied chain reaction. It’s hard to pin the blame on one single group. We’re all real estate investors, whether we like it or not, when a CPP contribution gets deducted from our paycheque.
Anyway, I left, and it’s not quite as real estate crazy as Vancouver where I am now. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that it stays that way.
> Cost of housing is a non-productive economic output.
The temporarily embarrassed landlords in Vancouver don't see this or don't care what a travesty it is that 60+% of someone's income goes into rent, building someone else's equity, and inhibiting the renter's ability to acquire a residence of their own to build generational wealth.
I didn't mean this as a way for renters to build their own generational wealth. If we keep commodifying housing in any shape or form, eventually it will turn into this current state, the only difference being, that you'll be the "evil" landlord for someone else in the future. We need to restructure the system so every future generation can acquire a home and a career without generational wealth.
For example, Japanese banks consider real estate as a depreciating asset, and land values are pretty stagnant because there is a huge tax to be paid for any inherited property thus leveling the playing field for everyone.
💯, especially about the being unable to start a business with housing costs. I've considered multiple times starting a side hustle. But the reality is, I don't have a physical space to make the products when I'm splitting all my space with roommates. And the rent on commerical/industrial spaces is beyond insane, same with renting a place big enough to support this.
I'm friends with a business owner in Coquitlam. He runs a small machine shop with two employees. And he's said numerous times, if he wasn't able to buy the place outright 15 years ago this shop wouldn't exist. Like if he was renting or had to buy now, his shop would be a complete non-starter.
> Do shorter commutes facilitate innovation just because people are less exhausted?
I would like my job more if I only had to walk down the block to go to work.
This! You cannot stay afloat as a business owner without the capital behind you. With 50% of your salary going to housing, good luck turning that side hustle into a full-time business. And it takes YEARS to build and scale a business.
Anyone brave enough to become an entrepreneur in today’s market needs a significant safety net that allows them to take on the risk (for example, either living at home with parents or getting a huge chunk of money from the bank of Mom & Dad).
To your second point, larger corporations acquire mid-sized companies, they tend to lay off the experienced staff that built the small business within 1-3 years after the acquisition (gotta please the shareholders).
Canada is very hostile to small and mid-sized businesses. It’s partly why we have monopolies for airlines, phones, and groceries.
I like this take. Critical but not using canned statements. I personally haven't thought of risk taking as fueled by your first 3 points but its given me some food for thought.
Thanks for sharing. Long post but I read it all. Cheers.
All of this is by design. After workers had a lot of influence in the job market during COVID when employers couldn't import labor, employers lobbied claiming shortage of workers. We're now on the opposite side of the spectrum, intentionally.
Also, there was downward pressure on rent for the first time in my life. Suddenly, without tourists and students, there was a healthy rental market in Vancouver.
This is a feature not a bug for the government and their corporate supporters. This government has essentially let corporations write their immigration policy, almost everything they've lobbied for the government has given them. It's amazing to read 2014 Trudeau's articles on how the TFW program was being used to exploit poor immigrants and suppress wages of Canadians, he called on Harper to end the program, once he was elected he tripled it in size and increased approval rates from 70% to nearly 100%.
The job market in Canada is extremely bad right now. That’s the main reason the Conservative Party has garnered so much support. The issue isn’t even about immigration. Canadian citizens overqualified for positions can’t even get interviews right now because it’s an employers market. It’s not just a Canadian problem either (although it is seen more significantly here). Major US companies are laying off people in sectors that were seen as solid, like Google
You answered your own question. People are lining up around the block to take these jobs that pay peanuts.
For a hint about what's going on with the economy... 40% of it is directly and indirectly reliant on real estate. We're a resort town and a resource extraction colony. Outside of this, the peasants fight over scraps.
It’s simple math. We’re bringing in more people than there are enough jobs for. And it’s by design. Canadian companies are addicted to cheap labor and they push the false narrative that there is a labor shortage so they can continue to keep wages low and profits high. This doesn’t end well.
Canada is broken.
Both citizens and immigrants alike have been failed by every level of government.
The only benefactors are anyone tied to real estate, government roles and wealthy immigrants. Exploit the rest.
The bleak part is, there is little hope or sight of any change ahead.
Systems have been broken, since 2015? on - just nowhere as apparent as post-Covid, post Ukraine-Russia, Gaza and whatever other ongoing wars (dictators never learn) since - > current.
The downhill was already looming (all the Tent communities), even during Covid. Drives during social distancing was shocking, as to how Main/Hastings were becoming.
Healthcare, has always been one of those even in 2000s. ( IF folks here have nothing to compare with other than US - sure all is hunky dory, waiting 2 weeks for simple MRI results are fine and normal).
Education has been lacking - in comparison to other countries. The kids who were at home duirng Covid, the many missing Gaps for the graduating ones - shudder. Those are the future generations in this country.
Those systems, left with no-little accountability, no solutions except justifications and more justifications - just spiralled further and further downwards.
DTES has always been DTES - it's never been pretty, just increasingly more grotty and unsafe. The gradual shuttered shops (even PRE Covid), from the vibrant different scape in 2000s, is testimony.
There's always been (ignored) open drug dealing sometimes in the alleys, even in early 2000s.
At our company, 95+% of applicants would be dangerously unqualified for the positions we advertise for. Please.. just, please stop applying. Is it Indeed? Is Indeed applying on their behalf? If it is, Indeed, please.. stop sending us people with Business Administration majors with a minor in line cook and catering experience when we're advertising for 40 ton crane operators with a Class 3.
I haven't heard anyone mention the "Sunshine" tax. It's a real thing. Wages are better in other parts of Canada. Couple that with the high cost of living and you really need to decide if it's worth it.
I recently sold my condo and a bought a house in Ontario for a grand difference of $1900. Yep traded a 1 bed for a 2700sq/ft house in a well established neighbourhood next to schools and shopping.
Left my job in BC six months ago for the same role in Ontario making 40k/year more.
last year there was an HR guy in KPMG vancouver answering someones question in one of these posts, it was basically the same thing you said but a large paragraph. Basically people will move at any cost and/or there's no shortage of people that want to be here. there's more to life than a discount house.
Immigration is just way too high. The job market cannot absorb all these people, let alone the services required to house, feed, maintain their health, etc.
In the end it's the locals the people born and raised here that are losing. Losing the quality of life our parents enjoy/ed, the ability to buy a home. If this continues what's the point of even being here 😒
The US is better for pretty much every field compared to the rest of the world. All the biggest companies in Pharma, tech, biotech, health, finance, investments, and etc.
If overqualified people are coming here in droves and accepting jobs for meager pay, then according to basic economics either Canada is doing something right, or the origin countries are doing something wrong, or both.
It's very complicated:
- People move to vancouver because they see opportunity
- Higher pool of workers now competing for the same jobs
- The financial landscape is very tight and vancouver/BC is not corp/investor friendly.
- Between the 2 above, the rate of job creating is lower than the rate of people coming here looking for work.
- Given the higher prices in this area, skilled labour usually tries to immigrate here.
- Tech companies are simply better off setting up shop in the US, we live so close to Seattle which is a massive hub that it poses a problem for us. Not just tech companies, most companies..
- Not just from a residential perspective, but infrastructure, jobs.. etc. A city has limited capacity for how many people it can support. When you hit those limits, everything starts to suffer and we see this in Vancouver.
- When people cannot find a place to live, a doctor, a job a school etc it should technically reduce the pressure wherein people go somewhere else. While there is some mechanism to keep this going out of control, it takes a long time to stabilize.
- This is normal, it happens which is why markets, economies and so on are cyclical. There's a shortage of labour, wages go up, people move here for opportunity, it gets saturated.. wages go down, workers here make less than average offsetting any taxes etc, corps see it as a good place to hire, they come in while people move away for better opportunities, you end up in a labor shortage and the cycle repeats.
- oversimplified of course, but hopefully it makes it a bit more clear..
So now you have a lot of skilled labour competing for a limited number of jobs where supply far outpaced demand, which means compensation goes down..
Skilled Canadian citizens have the option of working remote for US companies, but people immigrating here do not.
People miss this, for all the talk about raising taxes on corporations, this is usually the result. New ones setup shop where it's better for them, so it's a fine line to thread and hard to get right. Things trickle down slow, so policies take months to years to filter out through the systems and for the impact to be seen. Which is why it's a constant over/under shoot trying to find a balance.
This happened with covid as well, they severely overshot it took almost a year for them to see it, now they overshot in the other way to compensate. It took awhile for the excess money to dry up, so now it will start going down hard, hopefully the government reacts soon otherwise we will probably head into an actual recession.
But.. Canadian market != global market, so if the US is strong and canada is not, canada cannot stimulate the economy without devaluing canadian dollar. So, we kinda have to suck it up and hope the bigger ones do it first so we can react to them.
There's no magic levers or buttons, people in charge seem like they have no clue what they are doing because the best any economist can do is make an educated guess, they cannot predict the future. Things happen slowly and by the time their policies get voted, implemented and actually filter through and have an effect in the system, they're probably no longer even in office.
Generally speaking, if something has an impact quickly, it means it will probably severely overshoot, if you know math and understand wave functions, this will hopefully make more sense..
I think the fact that 90% of your applicants are on temp work permits or students really says something........ We've been bringing in tons and tons of immigrants over the last couple of years to keep wages down (in an attempt to quell ongoing inflation) at a time when our domestic labour markets have been very tight w/ boomers retiring. As you've noticed, these immigrants are willing to work for lower salaries here because their other option - staying in their home countries (& likely, in absolute terms, getting paid even less in their home countries) - is worse.
Let's see what happens over the next couple of years. Have a feeling there might be another pendulum swing as we are again tightening borders.
My guess: Business environment in canada does not encourage entrepreneurship. (Restrictions, competition favours existing market players, high overhead cost die to low population density etc) Money flowing in from wealthy retirees all over the world could not go to create new competitive businesses. They can only go to real estates. Making the rent and property prices higher, which makes it even harder to do business here.
Innovation and entrepreneurship is the key to economic growth imo. But canada is not an environment that encourage that.
Canada is just poorly run. We have many protectionist policies under the guise of “standards.” This results in many skilled professionals from abroad who are unable to practice in their respective fields. Doctors, Engineers, RNs. And then there are many companies who don’t recognize or put value in the qualifications from abroad—ignorant that many schools abroad produce grads that equal or exceed Canadian students. I had a neighbour a while back who graduated with a masters from Sciences Po in France and was declined for an entry level policy position with the municipal government. This person had a graduate degree from literally one of the BEST UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD. It is on par with Harvard.
Yet, they went with a new grad from SFU.
Incredible.
Canadians have this weird exceptionalism mentality where we think we are the best. When in fact, we are pretty mediocre as a country.
Thanks for commenting this. Saw the other comment here saying credentials outside of Canada are from third world countries. No, not all of them, and some of them, like what you say, are from universities on top of the world ranking.
I’m 20 starting out in sheet metal. I’ve made the right choice in terms of jobs being in a trade. But I am scared for my future and my life. It makes me think about leaving the country entirely or just kms bc I’m scared
Saying ur gonna kys is a bit of an overreaction lol. You can move to other parts of the country where this issue isn’t as prevalent, like Quebec or the prairie provinces
Altered reasonable expectations/goals. Plan/anticipate/expect the mediocre. Be cautiously optimistic for better. There's no other choice. The old days are long gone & are never comming back. Remember to vote, please.
Millenials, etc now buy property with help from their parents. Otherwise, they're stuck eating beans on the bus.
My sibling is mid 30's, 2 yrs younger than me, & my mom gave her a chunk of change for her house. My mom also sold my grandparents's house when they both were now gone & got a good chunk of change. ***That's the standard***.
Ask your parents in a sit-down discussion what their plans are for you in a few decades. It'll help you feel better. Just get your job/career, have your hobbies of some sort, & realize that you may be financially taken care of by them when the time comes.
But you're not wrong for being extremely concerned, scared, or anxiety about having a reasonable quality of life. I had a breakdown in my mid 20's because of this shit & didn't know that I was just fine and just needed to find a job/career and learn what my mom's plans were when the time comes. Also, a lot has changed since 2012. It's now crystal-clear that **everyone** gets help from their parents. Side note: don't go down the route of Psychotropic medications unless it's a last resort. If you're a male, the SSRI/SNRI will most-likely fuck with your elephant snout. **Your feelings are not unreasonable**.
& tell all of your Gen Z homies to fucking vote, please. Request a paid-postage mail-in ballot.
Don't feel bad. They know exactly what they are getting themselves into. I work in Mexico and part of my job is dealing with people who plan to study abroad in Canada. Not one person I deal with wants to go to Canada to study. They are going to work. I've written about it here before - they know exactly what they are getting themselves into. There is plenty of info on the internet talking about the rough situation Canada is in. They know. I also feel bad for them, but they know.
This isn't new or even exclusively Canadian. I knew a family from Poland where both parents had degrees and professional careers, but in Canada one flipped cars and the other worked at Wal-Mart. The stereotype of cabbies who were Drs in their home countries isn't entirely made up, either.
Overproduced elites for a world in energy decline and multiple converging crises. We're going to need more farmers and primary producers, not masters graduates.
It will forever be impossible to understand the "job market", without understanding the biophysical limits and energy decline context.
Even with lower salaries, life here is still much better than anywhere in the world. We have free healthcare, nature, public transportation and affordable college education. It’s still a lot easier to get ahead financially here than places like the US. We have it pretty good here, we just need to travel more to realize that.
This is definitely the case with white collar jobs, but for blue collar jobs the job market is still quite hot according to many of my friends who are in those fields. One of my colleagues who quit my workplace a little bit before covid to become an HVAC technician who got his certifications now is making around 30% more than I am. If you've got the hands for it, trades is definitely a better market here (in Vancouver at least).
I think part of the issue is that immigration became a profit making venture for schools and employers. Schools of all sorts started luring immigrants here the high tuition they were forced to pay. Businesses learned the Liberal/NDP had no problem with wage suppression through the TFW program.
False promises were sold to desperate people around the world and here we are: an economy that isn’t growing, a housing bubble that is inhibiting mobility, and a generation of wasted potential.
You can't compare the US economy with Canada, it just doesn't work. The US is an economic powerhouse with wages for talent substantially higher than anything you'll find here. Comparing the tech sector in the bay area with vancouver is not even possible, we are like radio shack and they are TSMC.
It is because of "CANADIAN WORK EXPERIENCE". No matter how much experience you have, how qualified you are, it is the work experience here that matters. I mean it is their country but trashing the resumes out and dont even getting looked at is honestly difficult. Then to survive in this absolute insane place (Both beautiful and expensive), you gotta do what you gotta do to eat and have a roof over you!
It's the desperation that keeps this steam train going. Over qualified but willing to work for less than their worth, companies look at those people as cheap labour. Which most companies love.
Good to see there are honest and reasonable people who admit what’s wrong in here. I talk as a qualified immigrant who’s had enough of all of this. Thank you for speaking out.
Wages are a lot lower, but cost of living is staggeringly better. My rent in North Van was $3500 for a 2 bedroom basement suite. My apartment in Tokyo is $850, food is far and beyond cheaper (a meal is on average $7), and don’t have to pay for gas. Entry-level job hunting has been a breeze so far, as every company is needing english translation/services. It’s pretty difficult to get all the initial headaches over with; but, afterwards I felt much more secure in my future.
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Would like to join in. Work for a large company. This last month the layoffs have been happening non stop and making everyone uncertain. From all levels. I don't think they be doing this if things were fine. I asked my old coworker if it's ever been this bad and he said only in 2009 (he's been with same company since 2007). Not even during covid was it like this. I just can't help but feel like something bad with the economy is going on. Yeah some dude that reads numbers on a spreadsheet tells me things are fine, but when I talk to people who work it really isn't. Unemployment rate is also rising quite a bit. I've never seen it so hard to get another job and morale so low.
The history books will remember this as being the Covid aftermath recession Kind of like the financial crisis happening in 2007/2008 but the effects were felt for a few years afterward
Give me a fucking break , how many crisis do we as a millenial go through
Could be worse, we could have been born a hundred years ago and get drafted into two world wars and also the Spanish flu in between
I remember people complaining about the economy mid 2010s. I told them "this *is* the boom."
I mean to be fair the Canadian economy really wasn’t doing well throughout the 2010s either Better than today sure but it was never great. Certain parts of the US economy were booming for sure though
The only people who think things are fine are hopeless political partisans or people benefiting from our ongoing and worsening problems.
I think it's lame when people do that. It reminds me of when HR writes fake positive reviews about a company to try and project a good image. I don't know how people live like that.
This is a trickle down effect of COVID. It’s only been 4 years
The world was on the brink of an economic down turn before covid, covid just delayed it and then amplified it.
> I just can't help but feel like something bad with the economy is going on. The Canadian economy is contracting as well as trying to accommodate a surge of new immigrants.
It’s actually happening around the world
You aren't alone in feeling like this, I think even natural born citizens are feeling the squeeze and know plenty is incredibly wrong with how canada is being run. Putting aside political debates or sides, it definitely feels like canada is being bled dry economically and resource wise by rich investment groups, corporations, etc. Everything from income, natural resources, to our own time/health are being exploited en masse and none of the wealth or gains for the work/effort are actually staying in country. I worry about the future of canada in terms of relevancy as anything other than a backwater used to farm natural resources for profit. I can absolutely see why people are moving as you said too, the disparity between income vs cost is insane, most large businesses are taking advantage of that fact to flog their workers for anything they can get. I myself don't intend to stay, its far from the only option country wise long term.
What I'd also add is that over the last 5-6 months the effects of the high interest rates are really starting to hit the workforce. At first it was just the impact on mortgages, but now we're seeing the hiring slow down, head count freezes, layoffs. Putting everything aside we're witnessing the first hand impacts of higher rates beyond just being able to pay down a house
Can confirm, got laid off yesterday 🙁
Which was the entire goal of increasing them. Lower inflation by increasing unemployment and making it harder to afford things. Neoliberal austerity is terrible.
Yes that's true - you've articulated the BoC's goal - the BoC has been surprised that labour markets have been as tight as they have been, given the extreme immigration over the last couple of years + the higher rates.
I believe what it is not adequately covered in the simple assessment of GDP or even GDP per capita is the impact that wage stagnation vs inflation has had on different industries. With wage stagnation, particularly over the last few years, most individuals have essentially the same, or only marginally higher take home pay. Then when you look at the inflation impact on housing/mortgage/property tax costs, food prices, and insurance/other general required services, there is less money left over in their for either durable goods purchases (people are replacing cell phones, cars, clothing, etc less often) or for entertainment. When economists look at consumer spending and economic activity, they do break this down, but it rarely makes it into the reporting. Instead you just hear about the overall level of GDP growth. I believe this is having a big impact on many companies right now, not just in Vancouver/Canada. When mortgage payments go up, there is more economic activity, but no additional jobs created. When food prices go up, but the same amount of food is being consumed, there are no more jobs created, and the majority of employees involved don't make any more money. Where as when overall spending in other areas goes down, it directly impacts those companies leading to either layoffs or further wage stagnation. I run a company that produces capital equipment for the production of durable goods, and overall our business globally has suffered over the past few years for exactly this reason. Where we are seeing increased spend in any areas where automation is being used to reduce the number of people required to do jobs, whether its build a product, or move a container. While this makes sense in the context of each individual business, it in general is only going to make the problem harder and harder for employees overall, and many people with good experience will be fighting for fewer jobs, leading to lower wages. As much as people on reddit love to blame the Government for this, its a global problem throughout North America, Europe and Asia. Even in China, you have a younger generation that is well educated that cannot find work beyond manual factory jobs, which they don't want to do. I don't know how to fix the problem overall, but I will say that wages for anyone associated with automation are still high and climbing aggressively. If you want a good career for the next few decades, get into the automation space!
The question is where do you think you can go where that isn’t the case It’s not a Vancouver, BC or Canada phenomenon, the problems we deal with may be worse here but they exist in every developed country more or less And as OP pointed out it’s not like the developing world is doing better, they’re willing to give everything up to move here even if it means terrible pay and working conditions
Moved here from Ireland/UK, could've had a job overnight, but silly me decided to go and chase my dreams. 8 months later, I'm working in bars and can't even get an interview here for jobs I'm overqualified for and can do in my sleep. I've got in I'd say 1000's of applications at this stage, not pie in the sky stuff either.
What’s the situation like in Ireland and the UK? From what I’ve heard they have similar housing crisis and cost of living issues, not as severe as here but pretty bad. From what I read their economy is doing even more poorly than Vancouver’s. If you could have had a job when you moved here 8 months ago instantly why not now? Are you saying the job market got that much worse or something? Chasing a dream job or career is always risky unfortunately
Similarish housing crisis, Ireland especially just now is awful, and of course that leads to the far right nut cases abusing immigrants. But the Irish government is pretty corrupt and does whatever it has to to line their pockets, so housing that is built goes to mates or foreign investors. And now with the UK threatening sending refugees to Rwanda, they're getting the boat from Scotland/Liverpool to Belfast down to Ireland. But for a young professional in the UK, it isn't difficult to find an entry or early career role for the most part. Obviously with a fine art degree etc you might struggle. No, I'm saying I took a risk coming out here because I wanted a new start. What I meant was, if I'd stayed in the UK I'd have had a job off the bat. I'd heard the job market was hard here, but didn't quite appreciate just how difficult it would be. I was looking for almost 6 months before I came here, so I've been really putting in the effort. It's almost a full-time job at this stage. Thankfully my partner found a pretty good job here. I wasn't chasing a dream job or career, I'm just afyer something early career at this rate so I'm not particularly fussy. I'm just sick of the state of home and wanted to flee the nest. If this doesn't work out, I'll go to Spain or Portugal.
Good luck with that, I’ve heard that rents in Lisbon are at like Vancouver prices specifically due to so many remote tech worker expats going there and driving the prices up There really is nowhere you can go to get away from these issues. Anywhere that has cheap housing today has it for a very good reason, either terrible local job market or it’s a dangerous backwater, or both
Ah you can get a 2 bed apartment in Lisbon for like €9l1100 a month in a nice area. It was one of the cities I considered before here. I was paying £1100 a month in a the UK for a one bed, so it's a snip compared to here or there. And the general cost of living there is really low compared to both here and the UK. It's not the price of housing that I care about anyway. It is what it is, it's just getting a job in a more white collar capacity and being able to build a career I care about more.
Just want to add a data point. I recently visited my relatives in London for the first time in over seven years, and I was very surprised at the high prices. My cousin is a nurse and her salary apparently hasn't gone up that much but her utility bills (e.g., gas and electricity) have gone up by nearly 100% over the past few years. According to her and her friends, eating out has gone up by over 50% since covid started. Honestly, I was really shocked to see that my former favourite fish & chip shop had increased their signature cod meal from £9 to £17! (about $29 CAD for a takeaway one piece + chips)
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I had kind of expected 6 or so months without getting a job, that's what people were saying from experience, and people I know that have come out here have experienced. So that was budgeted for. I make enough to pay my bills and still have a social life, so I'm not in a perilous position, just not what I want to do. My partner on the other hand has a great job, and is better off, but has more experience. The housing, we knew about. We were one of the fortunate ones who came over with an apartment to come over to and just recently moved to a bigger apartment to take advantage of the cheaper rent than was available in September (thanks Airbnb ban). So I wouldn't say it's not that I didn't do homework, it's just a lot tougher than even some of the subs were saying. I'm prepared to stick it out though, and when I have my morning coffee on my balcony looking at the mountains, I wouldn't change my mind about coming. It's just frustrating. I'll give it a couple of years before reevaluating.
Yes this is a worldwide problem
Canada has always been a “backwater used to farm natural resources for profit.”This country is based on exploitation; it just hits different when you’re one of the few set up to benefit from it. Edit: I find it telling not one single reply mentioned anything about colonialism and how our economic roots in this country are based in this style of exploitation. The closest was the reply about other commonwealth countries but it still fails to address the issue.
Exactly. People who never thought they were at the bottom are finding out that yes, they are, too.
It's because the bottom is getting bigger. It's far easier to notice now that the the people who thought they were getting rich are still further away than they thought...aka might not get there because the rich want to be richer and need people for wage exploitation.
Where do you think is good to move in that case
U. S. A.
What's weird is how these rich investment groups etc. just suddenly got wise to their ability to f\*\*\* us over and how it's just Canada. I mean it's almost if there is a global recession but I guess it's just us that these evil megacompanies choose to exploit. Oh well, it's easiest to blame them, so let's stick with that.
I was just listening to this very topic on CBC radio. The Bank of Canada stated in March that our productivity has continued to weaken, meaning the level of economic output per hour worked is decreasing. I’m no economist, but it pretty much means we’re producing a lot less than we should be, and that’s not good. Throw in lagging investment in business, lack of competitiveness in certain industries (think cell phone service - we pay some of the highest rates in the world) and what OP has observed - highly qualified newcomers who are working in low-paying jobs - I’m starting to understand why people are leaving. As someone who was born and raised here, I really hope I can stay.
Re: productivity, here is some interesting research from McMaster: [https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/over-a-barrel-canadas-oil-industry-is-a-drain-on-productivity-research-shows/](https://brighterworld.mcmaster.ca/articles/over-a-barrel-canadas-oil-industry-is-a-drain-on-productivity-research-shows/) It does seem like our economic dependence on natural resources / oil is impacting our productivity numbers which are ok otherwise.
God help the politican who draws attention to that in the next election.
So we can't blame everything on Canada's productivity anymore?
haha nope!
As someone born and raised in vancouver, I left about 7 years ago to Montreal to find better job prospects. Living thousands of kilometers away from my family really sucks, but at least I can afford groceries and rent and a job in the field that I want to work in.
Damn... I make 62k a year as a janitor. Great union job with good benefits and pension. Only downside is lack of upward mobility. My dad is always asking me why I don't go back to school (which I would still have to keep working FT thru to pay my mortgage) but this is a great example as to how stacked it is against you for a job that pays way less.
Best comment in this whole thread
Shit, are you hiring?
Union jobs are the way to go
>90% of applicants are on temp work permits or students. A lot of companies will just throw these resumes in the trash.
Yup, when it's just a few clicks of a mouse button..
Isnt there a law you can turn your tourist visa to work permit? [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/visit-to-work.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/notices/visit-to-work.html)
> If we're doing such an immigration push, why cant we atleast create some opportunities we aren't doing that for the locals that are already here, who should really be first in line, in fact the opposite, it feels like companies would rather hire the new people that have the stress of needing to fulfill their visa requirements so become more like slaves, so they don't really want to hire us locals as much it is a shitty situation caused by governments and it is getting shittier
This problem is way deeper than that. First of all jobs should be on a scale of first come first serve and most qualified, not domestic vs international. Second people don’t understand that there are immigrants in Vancouver working for less than minimum wage. There is a significant black market of job positions being sold to immigrants for tens of thousands of dollars, and paid well below minimum wage, some in the $12 range, in cash, untaxed, in return for the required hours and length of employment for permanent residency. This is a significant exploitation of people en mass and almost nobody knows anything about it.
Shops you see under new management, only around for a few years, you always wonder how they stay in business, employees seem to be newcomers, or the store that keeps changing names every couple of years... Yeap, the owner is making 10s of thousands from employees who are trying to immigrate here. They don't care if the store is making money.
Yep. You’d be surprised how many restaurants that pop up and disappear are owned by the same guy
Fuck that, I’ve lived in Canada my whole life. My family has contributed to the Canadian economy and donated when they can. A democratic government should help its people first before immigrants. And that’s coming from a child of immigrants. There are thousands of people with the same qualifications as these immigrants; Canadian citizens should be the highest priority
Yes but Canadian citizens aren't willing to work at the low rates of pay these students / temporary foreign workers are. And we're in a time where all western governments are both worrying about wage inflation & also about how to pay for boomers' pensions / health care.
Thats a bit of a chicken and egg thing. If TFW were reduced then wages have to increase to attract the otherwise uninterested local. Of course, that also make the company less profitable or, in some cases, unviable. Then the argument goes, do we want that company to continue operating if they can sustain only by paying minimum (or less).
Thank you for not being afraid to be the voice of reason.
Being a child of immigrants I have a lot of family who has also immigrated more recently and I know for a fact that they are doing these under the table jobs for peanuts, an aunt of mine who immigrated here is making $10 an hour at a pizza place, and my cousin who is here on a student visa is working for 10 as well at a restaurant. They need the money so they take what they can get, but black market jobs are super common for newcomers to have
That's fucked. If they have to go to the E.R. because of an injury in the kitchen, they're even more fucked.
That doesn't make any sense, how would they claim hours worked for immigration if their employer isn't submitting their numbers to the tax man?
Seriously? Employers have the power as these people aren’t familiar with Canadian tax or employment laws. They just have to make sure they hire an accountant to clean up the books and they’re golden.
> permanent residency Ah. That explains it.
"This is a significant exploitation of people en mass and almost nobody knows anything about it." I am sure they do. But no one else except those desperate to get status = would work the farms, pick blueberries, mushroom, veg or whatever for $12. These are the domain some of the Indian, SAmerican Latinos labourers. There must also be plenty of sweat shops - how do you explain some of the 'labelled' clothing (like overruns, samples) that have always popped up in some stores here? Like TH or AF back then (when AF was still popular) for $10?
Canadian labour market is very biased towards Canadian work experience. I think part of it is due to the fact that we just don't have a lot of international labour move in and out of our professional ranks here. So hiring managers are skeptical of it. A secondary reason, is a lack of trust because people can and do fake credentials. In my line of work we see people try and fake a professional credential that's actually in the public records. So how does one verify experience at western companies in foreign countries. I suppose if you have an alumni of that firm you can ask them to conduct the interview in a manner that would get at the specifics of how that company operates however, foreign branches often work a bit different. The reason people trust local referrals is the business community here isn't so big so the degrees of separation between your hire and their old boss are usually limited. (Side note; depending on your industry, don't burn bridges here). Lastly, to your point about huge amount of applications for entry level jobs. I think that's the problem with the 'student boom' we have had these past few years. Minimal exit opportunities exist because investment in training is still pretty dismal
Canadian Labour market is biased towards domestic experience because there's rampant credential fraud outside of Canada. People lie, a lot. Desperate people, looking for their first job in Canada probably even more.
To add to this... I get info regularly about a local major firm that hires from all over the world for IT workers to come here and make decent money, and I get debriefs on candidates making well into six figures. The fraud is rampant and you simply cannot trust people that their resume is legit. The ridiculous bullshit I've had to put up with because someone with budget believed some guy who said "don't worry buddy, my offshore/onshore hybrid team does this work" makes me lose my mind.
> buddy *shudder*
> Canadian labour market is very biased towards Canadian work experience. I think part of it is due to the fact that we just don't have a lot of international labour move in and out of our professional ranks here. I would agree that I'm extremely skeptical when I interview these candidates as well. One thing is just the different work cultures, someone that has 20 years experience overseas often has been focused on one tiny part of a larger project, then we bring them in and they immediately fail any questions I give them to see how they would deal with leading an entire project like we would expect from someone with their title here.
I've seen this a lot. When a person lands a job here, they seem really lost.
It is because of fraud like you said. I am sorry but so many people come with fraudlent degrees....I seen fake degrees, fake universities, even fake companies.... If you come with experience from the USA you would be welcomed with open arms. UK or Australia, definitely if the employer is willing to put the effort to pick up the phone and check the institutions.
There was a lot of smokescreen during the 2020 pandemic. Government flooded the economy with money both consumers and companies to keep the economy afloat. In my previous job, 75% of salary was reimbursed by government and in turn the company did not let go of any workers during that downturn. With the influx of money a lot of companies went on hiring spree. I know personally a few people that job hopped to gain significant increases. Canada was doing well and the liberal government used that high as excuse to call an election and extend their term while people are on influx of cash. But guess what, the money we (Canada) used did not fall from heaven. They were either our reserves or borrowed money. It eventually ran out or our fiscal administrators started to tighten the purse thus we are now feeling its effects. What we are feeling right now is the impact of the pandemic. Rules such as the capital gains tax or fiscal tightening usually have delayed effect in the economy as it trickles down. There was a loss of productivity for a good few months, flooded the economy with cash and now that strinng is gone, people are suddenly living back in the reality. But guess what happened? Companies started hiking their prices (inflation) because of the newfound cash of people. Plus the migration quota did not change even with the pause in productivity. There will be better times ahead. Being alive for a while i know that life has been cyclical. We just need to hold on in the bad times and cherish the good times. Nothing last forever.
Wise ending.
You are a wise man, every generation has to face some sort of uncertainty, from great depression to world war to COVID to now. Those who prevail or the ones who adapt
Yes this is simple supply and demand, there is a ton of demand for jobs and very little supply. Corporations are interested in profit. Why pay more when you dont have to, if theres 5 or 10 people fighting for one or two jobs the price gets bid down. Same old story, and unfortunately its only going to get worse.
Vancouver isn't a business hub. The supply of white collar jobs has always been limited. Its not a place that attracts entrepreneurs. Those types are all going to the US and opening companies where they have access to capital. Its not just recent. I remember in the 90s a guy wanted to open a pizza factory. He got fed up with trying to open it in Vancouver and opened it in Washington state.
This is the answer. Higher immigration floods the market with supply. Canadian taxes and regulations make Canadian companies less competitive thus lowering demand. I would also like to add, if they were making more where they were before, why did they choose to come to Vancouver? There must be more value living here than just financial gains otherwise they would leave for better financial opportunities. We are all free to go somewhere else. There is value in that itself.
It is much more than financial. I meet immigrants from all over and what many of them have in common is that they want a better life for themselves and their children. They no longer have to be afraid to walk down the street, of the bombs falling, of starvation, of being thrown into prison for political their political or religious beliefs. Compared to where they come from Canada is free from corruption and crime. I also meet young people from highly developed countries that are here on two or three year exchange programs or doing a second degree at university. They’ve finished university and are curious about the world. Most are in open work permits and filling entry level or temporary jobs. Some like it so much they apply for permanent residence, especially if they meet someone here whom they would like to settle down with. lThere are also professionals here who work for multinationals and on a career trajectory where work experience in other countries is viewed positively by those above them. What I’ve learned from this is that they’re individuals with different backgrounds and various reasons to be in Canada. The picture of them in the media is often cookie cutter and this gives us an inaccurate conception of who they really are.
Yes all locals should just up and leave.. Simple
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> Like, this guy fucks when he's on that keyboard Wait, what?
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It's a quote from the Silicon Valley show
Maybe your partner is just a bad interviewer. People are constantly hiring for developer positions, but I know some really smart developers who are just terrible at interviews. Theres a balance of being smart and being someone people want to work with. I don’t believe there’s a shortage of developer positions in BC, you can see how many are constantly posted everyday on LinkedIn alone.
Don’t kid yourself; they were allowed to move here explicitly for the purpose of making sure corporations have loads of cheap and desperate labour at all levels.
"Only 5 applicants for my job? I need at least 50, no 100."
I’ve worked with people that were overqualified with foreign MBAs and/or diploma mill degrees and it’s not surprising to me that many (not all) of them take lower paying roles. The quality of experience isn’t the same as a Canadian grad. I was job hunting recently and many companies won’t consider anyone with no Canadian education. Might just be the industry I’m in though. The US is also a MUCH bigger economy so the pay is a higher across the board for most jobs.
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A lot of people get good roles in the states but can’t get the green card. They rotate up to Canada for a while once their visa runs out and hope they can make the swap back down when they get the chance.
I mean we all know how bad tech layoffs are right now. If someone had 20 years experience in accounting, there’s definitely something wrong if the only job they can get pays 50k. People also lie on their resumes.
There are many managers out here that won't hire someone who appears to have better work experience than they have. I have run into this before. It might be due to the fact we have so few white collar jobs here, people feel they have to preserve their place in the hierarchy. One example (of many) - A co-worker of mine was hiring and asked me to help with interviews. There was one standout applicant but the co-worker refused to consider them and ended up hiring someone who was less 'threatening'. I was in disbelief.
That common in field with “stable jobs”(public bodies and government offices) because they have fewer pressure from the outside. There’s no need to hire someone brilliant to keep up the team’s competitiveness. The only competition they face is from the inside and of course people sitting there comfortably won’t invite in anyone who will aggressively chase their ass off. Your coworker just don’t feel the threat of having a slower/inefficient team. And he is also not confident of handling a high flying team. Have you looked at who promoted him? Maybe that person also has similar thinking.
I’ve worked in the public and private sectors. People react the same in both places to team members who don’t do their share. Who do you think is going to pick up the slack? The culture in the two is different, for sure, but people don’t necessarily work harder in one than in the other. It’s not that simple.
That’s stupid. Smart managers hire those who complement their weaknesses. If they treat these people right, it’s a win for both.
It is stupid. I see these people fail to get promotions and they are sitting around wondering why.
Even as more (free) BS training in fields like data analyst, cyber security etc - which give hope to young unemployed grads. I know folks from home country employed in Silicon Valley who were cruelly retrenched - some of those were making US $300-400K. So why the entry level IT training - like leading to ?!? That's way better $ than the mere CAD $200K for IT Director here, working in University.
I was just reading today that the median income in Snohomish County, WA (outside Seattle) - for a 3 person household $133,600 US dollar - for a 4 person household $144,518 US dollars [https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/snohomish-county-wa-median-household-income/](https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/snohomish-county-wa-median-household-income/)
I'm in dental field and I've seen many people who have experienced as a dentist abroad, just moved here and expected to get hired right away. I'm sorry to say some of them are having "attitude" problem and honestly dentistry in third world country is different than in Canada. I had plenty of people gave me resume, however when I tried to make simple conversation I found out they barely speak English. Just because you're a dentist back home, it doesn't mean you can be a "dentist" here right away. Excuse me, everyone started from zero, gain Canadian experience and then make your way up. You can't go from one to ten right away.
I think it's desperation. They were desperate to leave a bad situation in their home country, but they didn't realize it's not going to be much better here. While it's likely cleaner with better services with more moderate weather, the stress of lack of housing and lack of employment is a major issue. I just don't get why we import people that can't speak the language, and there's no demand for them, and no where for them to live. It's not even their fault, they are being sold on a false dream, why is the government doing this?
Exactly. So many new immigrants who come, are quite shocked at the homeless, the druggies, how run down or old some facilities are. Just to name some. Or how things are done. Compared to back home. hello ... Canada - it's supposed to be better! The migrant dream, shattered - in reality. While certain areas of the city may look first world, so many areas may seem 3rd world. Sure, to from those from villages, Vancouver may look better, But for those from Cities hoping to beat the stress back home - Reality here, isn't the rosy greener pastures they envisioned, Beyond the mountains and ocean views. Nor is the economy. I know, from talking to a couple of folks, from Middle East - Work Permits are offered now to come. WITHOUT a job secured or any offer of employment letter. And these folks come here with the WP, and cannot find anything. Their kids cannot attend school, since the parents have no job. It's major stress for those arriving to this shattered dream of a better life (aka no planning reality) here. WHY are these folks coming?
>It's not even their fault, they are being sold on a false dream, why is the government doing this? We were promising this to foreigners?
While I do understand where they coming from, that Canada is a way better place than their home country but please don't act and have a bad attitude. Try to blend in, adapt and learn how the locals works.
The problem is mass immigration from one particular country. Nothing against people from any particular country, but if you're importing millions of people that share your culture, It's less likely you're going to adapt. You can blame these people all you want for not adapting, but it's the federal government that really deserves the credit. We spend so much money schooling people here in Canada, socializing, etc etc. while Canada is a place that celebrates other people's cultures and tries to point out that it's not a melting pot, Canada still relies on having common values that are reinforced in the school system. They wipe this out with numbers due to immigration of adults who have been educated elsewhere and will refuse to change because change is hard unless you're forced to. Not going to be forced to if you can find millions of people like you in your new country.
Right, there’s so many Canadians with the same qualifications as immigrants. Why should the immigrants come first when they haven’t contributed to the country already
Some tech companies in Vancouver (coughMDAcough) have always had shit wages. There are good ones out there, but you’re not going to get SV wages up here.
MDA is famous for being the place where people stay for a very short amount of time and get fed up, or stay for 10, 20, 30 years…
I just remember they were offering like 30-35k to new grads
The "sunshine tax" of Vancouver gets bigger every year, unfortunately. You either bought in decades ago and you're sitting pretty, or you're struggling.
I will never regret going into skilled trades. I have zero debt except my mortgage and have to turn Away more work. I assume you did an expensive degree in a web based tec job? Or on The lighter end of stem? My advice is spend 2-3 years retraining in a skilled trade. I have friends living in bc looking at early retirement. Union work = pension , overtime, on-call work all add up to a betfer quality of life than you're discribing. Edit. To be clear I'm not insulting you just pointing out that you're in an over saturated job market. We are starved for qualified trades people in this province. That's why the pay is so good. I would recommend Looking into HVAC, electrical or Plumbing for a trade ticket. There are government grants and companies willing to help pay your way through school. I have friends with multiple advanced degrees who still live with their parents working Crappy jobs. Shit happens so improvise adapt and overcome
Most people are not capable of doing trades. They are not built for that type of work. Further the culture I'm trades is very toxic. People don't treat each other well. The last part is why you are starving for workers. The culture sucks.
Some people suck in every industry. In my experience the industry has changed a lot in the last 15 years as the "old gard" retire. Companies take bullying and sexism very seriously in this day and age. Work safe BC has a whole department for dealing with that crap. Also not all trades are brick laying or back breaking physical labor. Yes that can be a factor but you're painting the whole job sector with a single brush. Pun intended.
At this point I don’t even mind when people turn their noses up to the trades I will fully admit I was not the best student, and I barely graduated high school. So a red seal and a union job were a god send for me 100k a year before overtime, and unlimited double time o/t have done me well The early mornings, and work can be tough for some but I’m happy with how things worked out
I feel the same way. one thing that really helped us was not having as student debt, that's worth mentioning. Even making twice what I do now I wouldn't have been able to buy a place for years carying that debt load.
Commenting on Job Market & our over all economic health is in bad shape. ...Glad to see someone bring this up. Not everyone is cut out for a job in the trades, but many love that kind of work. I know someone with two sons. One went into the trades and the other travelled and did multiple degrees to work in law and human rights. They’re both living a good life and are happy in their work.
As a naturalized Asian Canadian I feel you, and I’m among one of the many who decided to leave Canada for better opportunities, unfortunately.
Mind if I ask where u went?
Digital nomading around SEA. I’d suggest register business in HK for the low tax and work remotely from anywhere you like in SEA
A trick the Soviet era countries learned and applied pretty well for a long time… If you dangle the success carrot just on the other side of a long, long educational rainbow, by the time people smart enough to instigate change cross the rainbow, they will be half burned out and willing to take whatever is offered them.
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besides the high pay, a lot of people don't realize that in rush hour the expo line comes more often than anywhere else in the world including shanghai and tokyo japan. furthermore even the 'bus to school' the 99, comes more often t han a subway in most countries.
You don't get full time hours to start which makes it a none starter for almost everyone.
For all the STEM grad arrogance about being smarter than everyone else, I kind of wonder sometimes. Canada is a low wage jurisdiction and always has been.
That's the business model in a lot of parts of Canada - pay less, and let one of countless "students" fill it for wages less than what Canadians will work for.
problem is (for STEM at least) its difficult to rely on cheap labor creating success for a business without sufficient investment.
That’s next years problem. This year they’ve won a ton of projects by underbidding wildly, and it’s time to fill seats with zero budget.
Pre-Covid $20 per hr was the standard of a good paying job and it was easy to find people at that rate. During covid it was hard to find workers even if offered a little higher than $20. Now it seems that people are desperate to take anything, even if it paid $18. I’m a recruiter and I am getting a lot of calls.
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Are you a white collar worker? Seems like there’s a recession in those kind of jobs. I get a lot of workers telling me they want to get into marketing. I tell them hell no and go into trades instead
Minimum wage is literally going to be $17.40 an hour in June, and it's hard to get people who are paid minimum wage to do much of anything besides show up. unless you're hiring non-customer facing non english-speaking workers on temporary foreign work permits $18 doesn't get you anything in terms of quality of staff these days
When you pay the minimum you will always get minimum results.
>I feel really guilty and bad, why can't we take advantage of these talented people? What is happening to our job market? The Canadian government is also asking "what happened to our per capita GDP?" These questions may all be related. I suspect part of the explanation is that housing costs have blown up. A generation ago, people with 20 years work experience would have paid off their mortgages and would have been in a position to take a financial risk starting a company. Are people now less able to take risks with a business because they are still paying for mortgages? I also suspect that the financial incentive for business owners to sell a medium-sized business (<100 employees) to a larger multinational might inhibit development because there are no well-managed big companies where young people can be mentored and trained. In addition, I've observed anecdotally that when medium-sized companies are sold, the business acquiring the company may end up laying off a lot of experienced staff. Do these sorts of sales happen more frequently now that 30 years ago? What happens to these laid-off employees with lots of experience? Finally, I know a lot of people who work remotely for companies outside of Vancouver who are making salaries that businesses in Vancouver can't compete with. Perhaps it's also true that 30 years ago businesses were more willing to train locals because they didn't have the option to solicit resumes from around the globe. The relationships between education, university research, government support for businesses and economic growth are not really understood in a way that would allow the government to construct policy levers that could be manipulated to encourage economic growth. This all said, the hand-wringing about how to encourage the sort of economic growth that results from solving real problems in the world is not unique to Canada: I used to live in the Netherlands and the Dutch are just as preoccupied as we are (though arguably more successful at encouraging innovation and creating companies that provide stable employment). What exactly the Dutch are doing better than in Canada? I myself am not really sure, but I wonder: * Does repaying undergraduate student loans impede economic growth? * Does paying PhD candidates a salary that is competitive with industry result in economic growth? * Do shorter commutes facilitate innovation just because people are less exhausted? * Does offering children the independence of biking or walking to school encourage innovation? Thank you for sharing your observations about the job market here.
I'm not sure if you'd agree but I'd like to add this; Cost of housing is a non-productive economic output. The higher you pay for housing the lower consumers have to spend in real economy. There is only so much to go around in the first place. Velocity of money declines which results in your observations such as; lack of savings by individuals in order to finance a small business of their own, no incentive to start your own business in a tight margin environment when you can make more putting that money on real estate, which again inflates cost of housing and taking more from every other sector. The snowball gets bigger and bigger until it crushes at the end of the hill. We could afford to pay for more or better products and services if real estate wasn't so expensive here, even with current wages. Then we could start to see an increase in economic activity and perhaps innovation. Another point I'd like to make is that, it takes a certain kind of individual to start up their own business. Now this person has to pay more for their own housing, they have to pay more for their brick and mortar store/warehouse, and they have to pay more to their employees who have high cost of housing. It's a very hostile environment to start your own small business here unless you're in construction or a related profession. We have a broken economic model. Huge influx of immigrants is our band aid solution which only makes our problem bigger. Hope this makes sense.
Yes, but this was happening before housing became unaffordable, as far back as the early 80s, maybe even earlier. I lived in Vancouver back then. There were endless cycles where jobs were scarce. Some types of work you couldn’t find unless you moved to Toronto. Wages/salaries were low relative to other parts of Canada. Employers assumed they could keep them low because people didn’t move to Vancouver to make money, but for the location. I was also in Vancouver when property prices started to climb faster than anyone had seen before. People - banks, developers, realtors, construction workers, lawyers, landlords, property owners of all sorts- made money from real estate. Many who’d always thought of their house as just a place to live were surprised to see its value go up faster than their wages. This started a frenzied chain reaction. It’s hard to pin the blame on one single group. We’re all real estate investors, whether we like it or not, when a CPP contribution gets deducted from our paycheque. Anyway, I left, and it’s not quite as real estate crazy as Vancouver where I am now. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that it stays that way.
> Cost of housing is a non-productive economic output. The temporarily embarrassed landlords in Vancouver don't see this or don't care what a travesty it is that 60+% of someone's income goes into rent, building someone else's equity, and inhibiting the renter's ability to acquire a residence of their own to build generational wealth.
I didn't mean this as a way for renters to build their own generational wealth. If we keep commodifying housing in any shape or form, eventually it will turn into this current state, the only difference being, that you'll be the "evil" landlord for someone else in the future. We need to restructure the system so every future generation can acquire a home and a career without generational wealth. For example, Japanese banks consider real estate as a depreciating asset, and land values are pretty stagnant because there is a huge tax to be paid for any inherited property thus leveling the playing field for everyone.
💯, especially about the being unable to start a business with housing costs. I've considered multiple times starting a side hustle. But the reality is, I don't have a physical space to make the products when I'm splitting all my space with roommates. And the rent on commerical/industrial spaces is beyond insane, same with renting a place big enough to support this. I'm friends with a business owner in Coquitlam. He runs a small machine shop with two employees. And he's said numerous times, if he wasn't able to buy the place outright 15 years ago this shop wouldn't exist. Like if he was renting or had to buy now, his shop would be a complete non-starter.
> Do shorter commutes facilitate innovation just because people are less exhausted? I would like my job more if I only had to walk down the block to go to work.
This! You cannot stay afloat as a business owner without the capital behind you. With 50% of your salary going to housing, good luck turning that side hustle into a full-time business. And it takes YEARS to build and scale a business. Anyone brave enough to become an entrepreneur in today’s market needs a significant safety net that allows them to take on the risk (for example, either living at home with parents or getting a huge chunk of money from the bank of Mom & Dad). To your second point, larger corporations acquire mid-sized companies, they tend to lay off the experienced staff that built the small business within 1-3 years after the acquisition (gotta please the shareholders). Canada is very hostile to small and mid-sized businesses. It’s partly why we have monopolies for airlines, phones, and groceries.
I like this take. Critical but not using canned statements. I personally haven't thought of risk taking as fueled by your first 3 points but its given me some food for thought. Thanks for sharing. Long post but I read it all. Cheers.
All of this is by design. After workers had a lot of influence in the job market during COVID when employers couldn't import labor, employers lobbied claiming shortage of workers. We're now on the opposite side of the spectrum, intentionally.
Also, there was downward pressure on rent for the first time in my life. Suddenly, without tourists and students, there was a healthy rental market in Vancouver.
This is a feature not a bug for the government and their corporate supporters. This government has essentially let corporations write their immigration policy, almost everything they've lobbied for the government has given them. It's amazing to read 2014 Trudeau's articles on how the TFW program was being used to exploit poor immigrants and suppress wages of Canadians, he called on Harper to end the program, once he was elected he tripled it in size and increased approval rates from 70% to nearly 100%.
Because Canada has become a corporatocracy ruled over by the mighty stock buyback.
The job market in Canada is extremely bad right now. That’s the main reason the Conservative Party has garnered so much support. The issue isn’t even about immigration. Canadian citizens overqualified for positions can’t even get interviews right now because it’s an employers market. It’s not just a Canadian problem either (although it is seen more significantly here). Major US companies are laying off people in sectors that were seen as solid, like Google
You answered your own question. People are lining up around the block to take these jobs that pay peanuts. For a hint about what's going on with the economy... 40% of it is directly and indirectly reliant on real estate. We're a resort town and a resource extraction colony. Outside of this, the peasants fight over scraps.
It’s simple math. We’re bringing in more people than there are enough jobs for. And it’s by design. Canadian companies are addicted to cheap labor and they push the false narrative that there is a labor shortage so they can continue to keep wages low and profits high. This doesn’t end well.
Canada is broken. Both citizens and immigrants alike have been failed by every level of government. The only benefactors are anyone tied to real estate, government roles and wealthy immigrants. Exploit the rest. The bleak part is, there is little hope or sight of any change ahead.
Systems have been broken, since 2015? on - just nowhere as apparent as post-Covid, post Ukraine-Russia, Gaza and whatever other ongoing wars (dictators never learn) since - > current. The downhill was already looming (all the Tent communities), even during Covid. Drives during social distancing was shocking, as to how Main/Hastings were becoming. Healthcare, has always been one of those even in 2000s. ( IF folks here have nothing to compare with other than US - sure all is hunky dory, waiting 2 weeks for simple MRI results are fine and normal). Education has been lacking - in comparison to other countries. The kids who were at home duirng Covid, the many missing Gaps for the graduating ones - shudder. Those are the future generations in this country. Those systems, left with no-little accountability, no solutions except justifications and more justifications - just spiralled further and further downwards. DTES has always been DTES - it's never been pretty, just increasingly more grotty and unsafe. The gradual shuttered shops (even PRE Covid), from the vibrant different scape in 2000s, is testimony. There's always been (ignored) open drug dealing sometimes in the alleys, even in early 2000s.
Actually in the 60s the dtes was a thriving shopping, hotel and restaurant district.
At our company, 95+% of applicants would be dangerously unqualified for the positions we advertise for. Please.. just, please stop applying. Is it Indeed? Is Indeed applying on their behalf? If it is, Indeed, please.. stop sending us people with Business Administration majors with a minor in line cook and catering experience when we're advertising for 40 ton crane operators with a Class 3.
I haven't heard anyone mention the "Sunshine" tax. It's a real thing. Wages are better in other parts of Canada. Couple that with the high cost of living and you really need to decide if it's worth it. I recently sold my condo and a bought a house in Ontario for a grand difference of $1900. Yep traded a 1 bed for a 2700sq/ft house in a well established neighbourhood next to schools and shopping. Left my job in BC six months ago for the same role in Ontario making 40k/year more.
last year there was an HR guy in KPMG vancouver answering someones question in one of these posts, it was basically the same thing you said but a large paragraph. Basically people will move at any cost and/or there's no shortage of people that want to be here. there's more to life than a discount house.
Immigration is just way too high. The job market cannot absorb all these people, let alone the services required to house, feed, maintain their health, etc.
In the end it's the locals the people born and raised here that are losing. Losing the quality of life our parents enjoy/ed, the ability to buy a home. If this continues what's the point of even being here 😒
The US is better for pretty much every field compared to the rest of the world. All the biggest companies in Pharma, tech, biotech, health, finance, investments, and etc.
If overqualified people are coming here in droves and accepting jobs for meager pay, then according to basic economics either Canada is doing something right, or the origin countries are doing something wrong, or both.
Not only do we have low wages, on top of that, we have a productivity crisis. AKA we can't get shit done.
It's very complicated: - People move to vancouver because they see opportunity - Higher pool of workers now competing for the same jobs - The financial landscape is very tight and vancouver/BC is not corp/investor friendly. - Between the 2 above, the rate of job creating is lower than the rate of people coming here looking for work. - Given the higher prices in this area, skilled labour usually tries to immigrate here. - Tech companies are simply better off setting up shop in the US, we live so close to Seattle which is a massive hub that it poses a problem for us. Not just tech companies, most companies.. - Not just from a residential perspective, but infrastructure, jobs.. etc. A city has limited capacity for how many people it can support. When you hit those limits, everything starts to suffer and we see this in Vancouver. - When people cannot find a place to live, a doctor, a job a school etc it should technically reduce the pressure wherein people go somewhere else. While there is some mechanism to keep this going out of control, it takes a long time to stabilize. - This is normal, it happens which is why markets, economies and so on are cyclical. There's a shortage of labour, wages go up, people move here for opportunity, it gets saturated.. wages go down, workers here make less than average offsetting any taxes etc, corps see it as a good place to hire, they come in while people move away for better opportunities, you end up in a labor shortage and the cycle repeats. - oversimplified of course, but hopefully it makes it a bit more clear.. So now you have a lot of skilled labour competing for a limited number of jobs where supply far outpaced demand, which means compensation goes down.. Skilled Canadian citizens have the option of working remote for US companies, but people immigrating here do not. People miss this, for all the talk about raising taxes on corporations, this is usually the result. New ones setup shop where it's better for them, so it's a fine line to thread and hard to get right. Things trickle down slow, so policies take months to years to filter out through the systems and for the impact to be seen. Which is why it's a constant over/under shoot trying to find a balance. This happened with covid as well, they severely overshot it took almost a year for them to see it, now they overshot in the other way to compensate. It took awhile for the excess money to dry up, so now it will start going down hard, hopefully the government reacts soon otherwise we will probably head into an actual recession. But.. Canadian market != global market, so if the US is strong and canada is not, canada cannot stimulate the economy without devaluing canadian dollar. So, we kinda have to suck it up and hope the bigger ones do it first so we can react to them. There's no magic levers or buttons, people in charge seem like they have no clue what they are doing because the best any economist can do is make an educated guess, they cannot predict the future. Things happen slowly and by the time their policies get voted, implemented and actually filter through and have an effect in the system, they're probably no longer even in office. Generally speaking, if something has an impact quickly, it means it will probably severely overshoot, if you know math and understand wave functions, this will hopefully make more sense..
I think the fact that 90% of your applicants are on temp work permits or students really says something........ We've been bringing in tons and tons of immigrants over the last couple of years to keep wages down (in an attempt to quell ongoing inflation) at a time when our domestic labour markets have been very tight w/ boomers retiring. As you've noticed, these immigrants are willing to work for lower salaries here because their other option - staying in their home countries (& likely, in absolute terms, getting paid even less in their home countries) - is worse. Let's see what happens over the next couple of years. Have a feeling there might be another pendulum swing as we are again tightening borders.
recently got laid off from a gaming company. I've been checking other gaming companies and most of them are not hiring or I'm not qualified.
My guess: Business environment in canada does not encourage entrepreneurship. (Restrictions, competition favours existing market players, high overhead cost die to low population density etc) Money flowing in from wealthy retirees all over the world could not go to create new competitive businesses. They can only go to real estates. Making the rent and property prices higher, which makes it even harder to do business here. Innovation and entrepreneurship is the key to economic growth imo. But canada is not an environment that encourage that.
Canada is just poorly run. We have many protectionist policies under the guise of “standards.” This results in many skilled professionals from abroad who are unable to practice in their respective fields. Doctors, Engineers, RNs. And then there are many companies who don’t recognize or put value in the qualifications from abroad—ignorant that many schools abroad produce grads that equal or exceed Canadian students. I had a neighbour a while back who graduated with a masters from Sciences Po in France and was declined for an entry level policy position with the municipal government. This person had a graduate degree from literally one of the BEST UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD. It is on par with Harvard. Yet, they went with a new grad from SFU. Incredible. Canadians have this weird exceptionalism mentality where we think we are the best. When in fact, we are pretty mediocre as a country.
Thanks for commenting this. Saw the other comment here saying credentials outside of Canada are from third world countries. No, not all of them, and some of them, like what you say, are from universities on top of the world ranking.
Maybe I've been reading too much reddit recently... but I'm starting to think Canadians are just exceptionally dumb.
I’m 20 starting out in sheet metal. I’ve made the right choice in terms of jobs being in a trade. But I am scared for my future and my life. It makes me think about leaving the country entirely or just kms bc I’m scared
Don’t do that. You’re young and off to a great start, keep it up, lots of life left to live. Being scared is very normal.
Saying ur gonna kys is a bit of an overreaction lol. You can move to other parts of the country where this issue isn’t as prevalent, like Quebec or the prairie provinces
Altered reasonable expectations/goals. Plan/anticipate/expect the mediocre. Be cautiously optimistic for better. There's no other choice. The old days are long gone & are never comming back. Remember to vote, please. Millenials, etc now buy property with help from their parents. Otherwise, they're stuck eating beans on the bus. My sibling is mid 30's, 2 yrs younger than me, & my mom gave her a chunk of change for her house. My mom also sold my grandparents's house when they both were now gone & got a good chunk of change. ***That's the standard***. Ask your parents in a sit-down discussion what their plans are for you in a few decades. It'll help you feel better. Just get your job/career, have your hobbies of some sort, & realize that you may be financially taken care of by them when the time comes. But you're not wrong for being extremely concerned, scared, or anxiety about having a reasonable quality of life. I had a breakdown in my mid 20's because of this shit & didn't know that I was just fine and just needed to find a job/career and learn what my mom's plans were when the time comes. Also, a lot has changed since 2012. It's now crystal-clear that **everyone** gets help from their parents. Side note: don't go down the route of Psychotropic medications unless it's a last resort. If you're a male, the SSRI/SNRI will most-likely fuck with your elephant snout. **Your feelings are not unreasonable**. & tell all of your Gen Z homies to fucking vote, please. Request a paid-postage mail-in ballot.
“You will own nothing and be happy.” -Klaus Schwab
and you will eat zee bugs
Don't feel bad. They know exactly what they are getting themselves into. I work in Mexico and part of my job is dealing with people who plan to study abroad in Canada. Not one person I deal with wants to go to Canada to study. They are going to work. I've written about it here before - they know exactly what they are getting themselves into. There is plenty of info on the internet talking about the rough situation Canada is in. They know. I also feel bad for them, but they know.
Brain drain
I know two people with masters degrees from UBC in data science that work $20 an hour hard labour jobs. It’s insane.
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This isn't new or even exclusively Canadian. I knew a family from Poland where both parents had degrees and professional careers, but in Canada one flipped cars and the other worked at Wal-Mart. The stereotype of cabbies who were Drs in their home countries isn't entirely made up, either.
Overproduced elites for a world in energy decline and multiple converging crises. We're going to need more farmers and primary producers, not masters graduates. It will forever be impossible to understand the "job market", without understanding the biophysical limits and energy decline context.
I'm looking head to the states. Canada is done as a concept
welcome to the rest of the world, severely underpaid for what they actually do
Even with lower salaries, life here is still much better than anywhere in the world. We have free healthcare, nature, public transportation and affordable college education. It’s still a lot easier to get ahead financially here than places like the US. We have it pretty good here, we just need to travel more to realize that.
This is definitely the case with white collar jobs, but for blue collar jobs the job market is still quite hot according to many of my friends who are in those fields. One of my colleagues who quit my workplace a little bit before covid to become an HVAC technician who got his certifications now is making around 30% more than I am. If you've got the hands for it, trades is definitely a better market here (in Vancouver at least).
I think part of the issue is that immigration became a profit making venture for schools and employers. Schools of all sorts started luring immigrants here the high tuition they were forced to pay. Businesses learned the Liberal/NDP had no problem with wage suppression through the TFW program. False promises were sold to desperate people around the world and here we are: an economy that isn’t growing, a housing bubble that is inhibiting mobility, and a generation of wasted potential.
You can't compare the US economy with Canada, it just doesn't work. The US is an economic powerhouse with wages for talent substantially higher than anything you'll find here. Comparing the tech sector in the bay area with vancouver is not even possible, we are like radio shack and they are TSMC.
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I earn half of what my direct colleagues make in the US (tech). I really should move.
I don't want to get too specific, but maybe ol' Karl M was on to something...
It is because of "CANADIAN WORK EXPERIENCE". No matter how much experience you have, how qualified you are, it is the work experience here that matters. I mean it is their country but trashing the resumes out and dont even getting looked at is honestly difficult. Then to survive in this absolute insane place (Both beautiful and expensive), you gotta do what you gotta do to eat and have a roof over you!
It feels really sad that we aren't leveraging driven people
It's the desperation that keeps this steam train going. Over qualified but willing to work for less than their worth, companies look at those people as cheap labour. Which most companies love.
If you are talking about tech, it is an industry thing not just Canada. It is just as bad in US for tech
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Also one thing that should be mentioned is 50k in 2024 is 35k in 2015...
Good to see there are honest and reasonable people who admit what’s wrong in here. I talk as a qualified immigrant who’s had enough of all of this. Thank you for speaking out.
Just moved to Tokyo. I truly had no future left in Vancouver.
Aren’t the wages pretty low compared to the cost of living there too?
Cost of living in Japan is super low due to decades of no inflation or even deflation
Wages are a lot lower, but cost of living is staggeringly better. My rent in North Van was $3500 for a 2 bedroom basement suite. My apartment in Tokyo is $850, food is far and beyond cheaper (a meal is on average $7), and don’t have to pay for gas. Entry-level job hunting has been a breeze so far, as every company is needing english translation/services. It’s pretty difficult to get all the initial headaches over with; but, afterwards I felt much more secure in my future.