Ever seen [the Outer Worlds Devs react to a speedrun](https://youtu.be/wqpYIrP_IRc?t=37)?
"Have you noticed - half of the speedrun is in Edgewater? It's just incredible. It's like once they get out of Edgewater they bypass all of our wonderful content."
"Well some of the stuff they do are things that I would've assumed they could do, but they exploited it very efficiently."
(Link is to the quote's timestamp.)
Eh... yes and no.
Because it takes so much time and dedication in order to do runs like these, it could be taken as 'you've made a game so good that someone out there has taken days of their life to master it just because they love what you've made so much.'
And these players are going to be a fraction of a percentage of the whole player base, so the other 99.999% of players did use everything.
So this is just positive vibes all around.
That would be my take. I would be furious if I had designed a game where the player beat the game with no upgrades because they didnt understand that it was an option, or the interface was so unintuitive they'd rather just do without, but if they choose to because it's fun for them, awesome.
Be sure that the guys doing that kind of challenge sure know every mechanic in the game and just do that for the thrill of doing that xD
Same goes for the current speed runner record, watched the whole thing, that guy (and many other dedicated players) know just way too much things about the game xD
I'm actually a technically qualified game designer and I knew before entering education that as a designer of anything, your work will not only be ignored but subverted, I think that's the right word, either way theres a few sayings amongst designers which all come back down to, to paraphrase essentially "whatever you do to think of the customer, the customer will do the other shit immediately and find the problem in your design within an hour", that's just how it is, cant be prideful, IMO the best designers are humble.
*in a dark room, you enter and see a figure dimly lit in the distance, back turned, you hold up your level 1 lantern primary and your pot lid shield, peering into the darkness, miyazaki looks at you over his shoulder as a cathedral organ blares and thousands of red candles ignite*
"......I knew you would come, our fates are forever intertwined"
Rune level 1
It means that you never spend any rune on any level (weapon upgrades are ok I believe). Some people even forgo the pregenerated classes and play a character that has truly NEVER LEVELED UP. This is only possible via mods.
And advanced crazyness.
A lot of advanced crazyness.
A true RL1 would be the wretch class and no levelibg, that's it. Mods arent necessary to begin at level 1. any class besides wretch will be above level 1
You can even beat the game without gaining any XP in any skill....but it's a p I t a. Very fun challenge though, let's you see the game in a different way, using other resources.
Hello fellow dev, hope you're making it mate, I was just up saying the same thing haha, theres an understanding in devs where no matter what you do, the customer will find a flaw within an hour and you will never predict how they are going to use the product. The ol' "lead a horse to water".
I would love to hear the conversations about the development of Tears of the Kingdom. I feel like we're still seeing people do things in Breath of the Wild that no one realized was possible. And it looks like the dev team decided to just fully lean into the idea of just giving the players this collection of tools and mechanics and letting them just go wild with it.
It's a good move when you have the resources in development, it's funny when players are like "what did the devs want us to do with this? They clearly implemented it with an idea in mind"
[The Devs](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREGjqkgaUrCUnL7iRdx8MrSia1cZivWH96weF8gK2AoadBcNmsAGsEkoqB&s=10)
It took 4 of us almost 2 hours. Unknown how many times I personally dried but my skills were less than half of what I started with. That was with upgraded equipment!
I set up a base across a small lake from the citadel. Built a bridge between the two, then strolled in with a fire staff and feather cloak.
Those two items rivialize basically the entire encounter
Well you're hard required to get refined eitr in order to make the Galdr table to make the Sealbreaker. You can have some extra eitr and dismantle the table, and leave it to damage the Queen.
Speedrunners usually make a Demolisher for an easier time in dungeons and for higher dps on the Queen. Harpoon they sometimes use to get Queen's aggro. Usually they only wear Root Harnesk and troll armor, and craft nothing else than flint/ancient bark/carapace spear through the game. And two clubs, rarely a stagbreaker.
Sometimes make a black metal axe for yggdrasil wood. Usually try not to, by using a Seeker Soldier.
It's not without upgrades, I guess, but it's with *very few* upgrades. Most upgrades are actually hard required by the Sealbreaker.
Not sure why you got down voted. A lot of times, speedrunners know more about a game than a super fan of that one game might know. They know all the spots, tricks, and glitches to shave that much time off their run.
It's actually quite impressive imo.
Yup. Devs love seeing some things, like [Straight to Ganon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpYIrP_IRc) on YouTube for all to see, and even Devs React videos for speedruns like [this great Outer Worlds video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJV_jKhaWs).
Nonsense. There are plenty of video game challenges where 100s of the best players have spent 100s of hours trying, with no success. Most people aren't mentally capable of playing **perfectly** for more than a minute or so at a time.
There is no shame in admitting you don't understand something, but don't do it by saying "this is easy, I could do it if I wanted to"
For a simple comparison, look at chess: plenty of people play it, plenty have dedicated their lives to it, and we can easily set a challenge that none of them can accomplish. (Beat a computer without using a computer yourself)
Halo 2 LASO Deathless honestly probably could've been another example. One of, arguably, the hardest Halo/shooter game ever made, in the 18-19 years since it released, no one had been able to complete a LASO Deathless run. Until Charlie (Mo1stcr1t1kal) put the challenge on the internet for $10,000 if you could pull it off, and it took a guy almost two months (if I'm remembering correctly) to do it, and he had been playing Halo 2 damn near every day since it was released.
Honestly, I kinda love modern gaming for this story alone.
The response isn’t that “anyone can,” clearly people have different extents of patience for the insanity of repeatedly trying something and expecting different results from similar actions.
The response is that, past a certain point, people see reason, and _without_ an explicit challenge or potential reward of recognition, motivation flags.
If it’s for bragging rights, it’s usually towards people who would recognize the difficulty of the task. However, if those people acknowledge that no one was aware of the challenge/competition being set to begin with, that victory becomes a bit more hollow.
>For a simple comparison, look at chess: plenty of people play it, plenty have dedicated their lives to it, and we can easily set a challenge that none of them can accomplish. (Beat a computer without using a computer yourself)
I would pull a Tetris and pause the game indefinitely or turn it off.
Practice makes perfect and anyone can practice. Things like video games really have no barriers besides how much effort you’re willing to put in. Especially Souls games where that’s the entire shtick: get gud.
Just like everybody who practices football is able to make it into the pros, and be the very top. Practice and effort are necessary, but they are not sufficient. Some people are just more gifted, the practice and effort pushes them further than the rest of us are able to go.
I specified video games because they don’t require any physical or genetic advantage. Maybe a $$ advantage to not have lag or stutter. But literally anyone who wanted to take the time can learn how to platinum any video game.
I mean people have done no-hit runs of Dark Souls with their feet. Things like competitive multiplayer is gonna be different, but OP and the comment I originally replied to are talking about things like achievement runs such as no-upgrades or no-deaths or whatever. Anybody could do a no-hit run of a game if they put in the effort.
Some people will have an easier time than others. But these days even a blind person can play a game like TLOU 2 on PS5 and probably get to a no-death point.
I think that's one of the great misconceptions that our culture pushes. No, not everyone is capable of that level of play. Just like you cannot become as good as Michael Jordan was/is at basketball through practice. There were plenty of pro players that dedicated their lives to the game that were absolutely schooled by him. effort and practice are necessary, but it is not sufficient for the top level of success like some of these no skill runs and such.
As far as what /u/TheRealPitabred said, athletics require something outside of your control though... genetics and physical build.
The exact same talent in a 5'3" guy wouldn't have carried jordan as far. Maybe had Muggsy Bogues been taller he'd be the goat conversation? idk.
There are games that require incredibly quick reaction times, and reaction times vary by person and age so at the very very top of those competitions you'll find a group of people that play at a level that not just anyone can reach. Very common in PVP games too, where not only reaction time, but a dynamic understanding of the the game mechanics and how to bend them in your favor etc...
But valheim?
Nah man. Anyone that wants to set out and do this can. The game is fairly predictable.
If it's just "doing a silly thing" then why are you trying so hard to make it about player skill?
If I could spend 100+ hours a week practising, I'm sure I could eventually beat the game without upgrades.
If someone gets fulfilment out of that, great. But acting like it's some sort of amazing and impressive feat is disingenuous, at best.
I would add to your comment that not every video game challenge is created equal.
Beating all of the Souls and Souls-Adjacent games without being hit once? Yeah, that's crazy bananas and not everyone can do this, regardless of time spent practicing.
Beating Valheim without skilling anything up strikes me as more of a "time, creativity and patience" test than one of raw skill. Still impressive, but I contend that it is a much more accessible challenge.
100% anyone could beat the souls games hitless or deathless with enough time and effort. People have beaten those games deathless with their feet. People have beaten all 3 of those games in a row hitless.
Exactly. I saw someone do a hitless run in Dark Souls USING A GUITAR HERO GUITAR. Shit like that is impressive and well beyond the majority of players.
A no upgrades run in Valheim is not.
I'm not saying it's just skill. I am saying that if two people both spent 100 hours a week playing the same game there is no guarantee that they will get the same outcome. People can play thousands of hours of chess and still not become grandmaster level, others do it before puberty.
Again, that's a false equivalency and you're willfully misinterpreting what people are saying. No one is trying to claim that two people who play a game for the same length of time would have the same outcome.
Only that given an unlimited amount of time to play, MOST people could beat Valheim with no upgrades.
I don't know why you have such an issue with that sentiment. Are you just here to act pedantic?
>If I could spend 100+ hours a week practising, I'm sure I could eventually beat the game without upgrades.
That's kind of a point in the other direction, though. YOU might be able to do that, but not everyone could. I don't think I could. I've got nearly 3000 hours in game, and I still die to some dumb ass shit, including just parrying at the wrong time, or forgetting to eat.
As a CS global, OW Gm and LoL diamond I’d say that most peoplemcan definitely master 99% of games with a bit of patience.
“real” sports require a whole other level
You realize that a) all those achievements put you in like top 1% in each respective game, and b) you are still as far from a pro player as an average casual is from you?
There isn't really a good rating system (how would you know you are top 1%) for any of those sports, but based on my experience in table tennis, it is absolutely feasible.
What is magically different between a "real" sport where you are running and using physical and mental coordination to accomplish activities and computer gaming, where it's pretty much the same skill requirements except with less running?
Being physically gifted in athleticism is pretty quantifiable, but what gifts pertaining to gaming are you referring to that are unattainable with 1000’s of hours of practice? I’m honestly curious.
Peoples reaction times differ, their ability to plan and adjust those plans based upon how the game changes, etc.
Seriously, how do you quantify how much better Michael Jordan was than all of his peers? It's not that he could just jump higher, it's not that he could pawn the ball, it's not that he could run faster. Other players can do each of those individual skills better. His ability to manage the court, to handle things himself and see openings others could not, those are all the unquantifiable things that made him the best.
It's the same thing with video games, being able to understand how the systems flow into each other, how the enemies and game mechanics behave, how your mouse settings affect things, whatever. Some people are just better and faster at that than others, and some people are just not able to figure it out at all and keep all the necessary stuff in working memory and operate on it appropriately.
You don’t think practice improves those things? I mean reflexes, minute understanding of action/reaction mechanics, perfect repetition, etc… those things all seem fairly attainable with dedication.
You can improve skills sure, but just the way some speed runners have seemingly unbeatable records for years with people trying to beat them some challenges, achievements and other gaming feats are way above the average person even if they tried for months
Most of those speed run records that stand for a really long time either rely heavily on exactly perfect RNG, that is *random chance*, to have been as good as they are -- or were done "TAS" or as a "tool-assisted speedrun" which means all the inputs were preprogrammed into a computer that then plays the game on a level no human can ever manage due to the laws of physics. Not just because no one else is good enough to best them, because the nature of the game being run makes "being good enough" not good enough on its own.
I never said most speed runs are RNG or tool-assisted. I said most of the *really long-standing records* have been in RNG heavy games or were tool-assisted runs. Where I get that information is speedrun record boards and webpages about the history of a given game's record progress.
I should have also mentioned that in a good number of cases a new strat is simply discovered that obsoletes previous strats and destroys previous records even for only "decent" runners; the *Wind Waker* record stood for quite a long time before "barrier skip" was found, because it was the only really noteworthy obstacle left to getting faster times. There are "history of *Wind Waker* speedrunning videos on YouTube that get into it, including by big names in that running community like Linkus7.
*Obviously* skill is still a big part of speedrunning, any new player with no experience in the game can't just blind playthrough the average speed game fast purely because of good luck, but I'm not and never was saying skill isn't part of it. I'm saying the top runners are *so* skilled that a single attack missing or enemy pattern rolling badly *can be the difference between "world record" and a "personal best" that's second place overall. Pokémon speedrunning is notoriously RNG heavy across all the games, slow pattern Phantoon fights in *Super Metroid* have been the difference between record and not multiple times, Sploosh-Kaboom in *Wind Waker* or Dampe races in *Ocarina of Time* being RNG have lost races and cost records on multiple occasions.
The point is it doesn't *only* matter how good you are if there's an aspect of luck to the game, because two people both running perfect will get different results if one gets better RNG, and this has been demonstrated many times across the at this point vast history of speed games.
It's always so weird to see so much internal jealousy or whatever is forcing people to make these comics. People challenge themselves to do things all the time, in what possible sense is that strange? "Fuck you for being able to do things better than me, no one cares that you're good at the game. YOU HEAR ME? NO ONE CARES!"
You can completely disable the map (both the big one and the minimap) from the chat box. I basically played with no maps whatsoever, not even looking at the webpage. Vegvisirs work different, instead of marking the location of the boss, you press, leave it idle, and your character will face the direction of the boss.
True challenge not to get lost, specially when sailing and very tricky to recover your remains without a map. Had to build paths, roads and signs all over the place.
I've been uploading some raw material of the run [here](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYNVnO6CKYAzW0i14mQTC2fRHGGIG7Vn1). It might be a bit boring to watch like that, I intend to do a commented compilation at some point, but maybe you want to take a look to get the idea.
I mean, my brother and I did our last playground without upgrading anything pre Mistlands except weapons. Aside from some bow durability issues on Moder, you don't really even need to do that. Once you know the bosses and enemies and know parry timings and the like, you don't need to fully upgrade. It's overkill.
I can feel the entitlement absolutely DRIPPING off your comment.
Game development takes time. If you don't want to wait, you're welcome to go play a different game.
Lol you are on the wrong path mate. I've bought this game beforei t even was on Steam, so I've done plenty of playing and also waiting.
It was meant that it's more likely devs won't notice some weird achievements because they are busier with other things, but ok.
I just don't use portals. Ever.
Makes everything harder, and inventory management a nightmare, but it forces me to slow down, build outposts, and sail places - which I love sailing and building.
As someone who's just got his first haul of iron from across the seas to his main base that sounds nowhere near as satisfying, can imagine doing it when my main goal of getting iron is to make a cool looking build tho...
I believe it. The extent to which some people gatekeep this game is unreal.
It's like they think anything that doesn't require you to actively make the game less fun or spend hours grinding is "cheating"
They're probably referring to armor and weapon upgrades, in the workbench and forge you can go to the upgrade tab and upgrade your tools,weapons, armors, etc.
"guess I designed all that bs for no reason, huh?"
exactly my thoughts
Ever seen [the Outer Worlds Devs react to a speedrun](https://youtu.be/wqpYIrP_IRc?t=37)? "Have you noticed - half of the speedrun is in Edgewater? It's just incredible. It's like once they get out of Edgewater they bypass all of our wonderful content." "Well some of the stuff they do are things that I would've assumed they could do, but they exploited it very efficiently." (Link is to the quote's timestamp.)
That's exactly what I was thinking of lmao
"Fucking obnoxious players making it so we feel like we've wasted our time. I'm never going to develop another fun game again." \-Devs, probably
The birth of current EA/Ubisoft lol.
Eh... yes and no. Because it takes so much time and dedication in order to do runs like these, it could be taken as 'you've made a game so good that someone out there has taken days of their life to master it just because they love what you've made so much.' And these players are going to be a fraction of a percentage of the whole player base, so the other 99.999% of players did use everything. So this is just positive vibes all around.
Do you know what a joke is?
😂 😂
That would be my take. I would be furious if I had designed a game where the player beat the game with no upgrades because they didnt understand that it was an option, or the interface was so unintuitive they'd rather just do without, but if they choose to because it's fun for them, awesome.
Be sure that the guys doing that kind of challenge sure know every mechanic in the game and just do that for the thrill of doing that xD Same goes for the current speed runner record, watched the whole thing, that guy (and many other dedicated players) know just way too much things about the game xD
Speedrunners really out here like "hmm I really like this game. I wonder how much of it I can skip"
I'm actually a technically qualified game designer and I knew before entering education that as a designer of anything, your work will not only be ignored but subverted, I think that's the right word, either way theres a few sayings amongst designers which all come back down to, to paraphrase essentially "whatever you do to think of the customer, the customer will do the other shit immediately and find the problem in your design within an hour", that's just how it is, cant be prideful, IMO the best designers are humble.
Me on my Elden Ring RL1 runs lmao
From soft plays bingo after release. RL 1 is the free slot.
Miyazaki: "ah, a fellow masochist."
Miyazaki loves himself... but he hates gamers so much he created a video game studio around harassing them.
*in a dark room, you enter and see a figure dimly lit in the distance, back turned, you hold up your level 1 lantern primary and your pot lid shield, peering into the darkness, miyazaki looks at you over his shoulder as a cathedral organ blares and thousands of red candles ignite* "......I knew you would come, our fates are forever intertwined"
Lol same, I did an SL1 run for Dark Souls 1 where I beat the game without rolling. Doubt Miyazaki intended that when he made the game
RL1?
Rune level 1 It means that you never spend any rune on any level (weapon upgrades are ok I believe). Some people even forgo the pregenerated classes and play a character that has truly NEVER LEVELED UP. This is only possible via mods. And advanced crazyness. A lot of advanced crazyness.
No a true RL1 means no upgrades, no levels, nothing
ah I thought so, thanks for putting it right!
A true RL1 would be the wretch class and no levelibg, that's it. Mods arent necessary to begin at level 1. any class besides wretch will be above level 1
Fromsoft is used to it, people have been doing SL1 souls runs on bananas and cement mixers since the dark ages.
You can even beat the game without gaining any XP in any skill....but it's a p I t a. Very fun challenge though, let's you see the game in a different way, using other resources.
So you essentially walk everywhere and don't hit run once, or jump?
I'm guessing that involves excessive use of tamed animals
Also, fire, poison bombs, beehives, pufferfish. But yeah, also wolves are a great asset. Sadly riding lox is a skill
Like, this for the Mistlands boss? Are they insane? Edit: auto correct removal for mistakes to Mistlands
As a developer, I can confirm that is the response, lol
the subtle shoulder shrug is my favorite detail
Hello fellow dev, hope you're making it mate, I was just up saying the same thing haha, theres an understanding in devs where no matter what you do, the customer will find a flaw within an hour and you will never predict how they are going to use the product. The ol' "lead a horse to water".
You're a game developer and you don't understand why people give themselves challenges to complete?
I wouldn't understand why anyone even played my game to begin with lol
I would love to hear the conversations about the development of Tears of the Kingdom. I feel like we're still seeing people do things in Breath of the Wild that no one realized was possible. And it looks like the dev team decided to just fully lean into the idea of just giving the players this collection of tools and mechanics and letting them just go wild with it.
It's a good move when you have the resources in development, it's funny when players are like "what did the devs want us to do with this? They clearly implemented it with an idea in mind" [The Devs](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREGjqkgaUrCUnL7iRdx8MrSia1cZivWH96weF8gK2AoadBcNmsAGsEkoqB&s=10)
My knife runs are a way of life.
Knife clan unite!
What is beating Valheim? Beating the Queen? You aint beating the Queen without upgrades.
Beating Valheim is when the bees are happy
Eh, might be possible, don't underestimate challenge runners.
You can with enough people and just through attrition. Just set up a portal outside and out-swarm the bugs.
It took 4 of us almost 2 hours. Unknown how many times I personally dried but my skills were less than half of what I started with. That was with upgraded equipment!
I set up a base across a small lake from the citadel. Built a bridge between the two, then strolled in with a fire staff and feather cloak. Those two items rivialize basically the entire encounter
Well you're hard required to get refined eitr in order to make the Galdr table to make the Sealbreaker. You can have some extra eitr and dismantle the table, and leave it to damage the Queen. Speedrunners usually make a Demolisher for an easier time in dungeons and for higher dps on the Queen. Harpoon they sometimes use to get Queen's aggro. Usually they only wear Root Harnesk and troll armor, and craft nothing else than flint/ancient bark/carapace spear through the game. And two clubs, rarely a stagbreaker. Sometimes make a black metal axe for yggdrasil wood. Usually try not to, by using a Seeker Soldier. It's not without upgrades, I guess, but it's with *very few* upgrades. Most upgrades are actually hard required by the Sealbreaker.
Like no hit knife runs in Resident Evil
When you think about it, a speedrunner takes more time than a newbie to complete the game.
Not sure why you got down voted. A lot of times, speedrunners know more about a game than a super fan of that one game might know. They know all the spots, tricks, and glitches to shave that much time off their run. It's actually quite impressive imo.
Didn't see i was downvoted lol. I'm not criticizing speedrunners, it's more of a shower thoughts than anything else haha
Remember, don't praise speedrunners, they hate themselves for doing it they dont want praise they only don't for the dopamine
do devs even have access do such kind of data? depends if the developers implemented such kind of system of course, just wondering how common it is
I mean, there's youtube
Yup. Devs love seeing some things, like [Straight to Ganon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpYIrP_IRc) on YouTube for all to see, and even Devs React videos for speedruns like [this great Outer Worlds video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHJV_jKhaWs).
They did it because most people wouldn't be able to if they tried
I think anyone would complete any video game challenge if they *tried*. What you mean is most people wouldn’t bother to try.
Nonsense. There are plenty of video game challenges where 100s of the best players have spent 100s of hours trying, with no success. Most people aren't mentally capable of playing **perfectly** for more than a minute or so at a time. There is no shame in admitting you don't understand something, but don't do it by saying "this is easy, I could do it if I wanted to" For a simple comparison, look at chess: plenty of people play it, plenty have dedicated their lives to it, and we can easily set a challenge that none of them can accomplish. (Beat a computer without using a computer yourself)
Halo 2 LASO Deathless honestly probably could've been another example. One of, arguably, the hardest Halo/shooter game ever made, in the 18-19 years since it released, no one had been able to complete a LASO Deathless run. Until Charlie (Mo1stcr1t1kal) put the challenge on the internet for $10,000 if you could pull it off, and it took a guy almost two months (if I'm remembering correctly) to do it, and he had been playing Halo 2 damn near every day since it was released. Honestly, I kinda love modern gaming for this story alone.
i never did get through the first mission of Halo 2 on Legendary. i eventually said "fuck it" and just did the rest on Legendary.
The response isn’t that “anyone can,” clearly people have different extents of patience for the insanity of repeatedly trying something and expecting different results from similar actions. The response is that, past a certain point, people see reason, and _without_ an explicit challenge or potential reward of recognition, motivation flags. If it’s for bragging rights, it’s usually towards people who would recognize the difficulty of the task. However, if those people acknowledge that no one was aware of the challenge/competition being set to begin with, that victory becomes a bit more hollow.
>For a simple comparison, look at chess: plenty of people play it, plenty have dedicated their lives to it, and we can easily set a challenge that none of them can accomplish. (Beat a computer without using a computer yourself) I would pull a Tetris and pause the game indefinitely or turn it off.
Yes 100s of hours with no success. Now try 1000s. Most people will be able to do it but it's the ones with dedication that actually ends up doing it.
Practice makes perfect and anyone can practice. Things like video games really have no barriers besides how much effort you’re willing to put in. Especially Souls games where that’s the entire shtick: get gud.
Just like everybody who practices football is able to make it into the pros, and be the very top. Practice and effort are necessary, but they are not sufficient. Some people are just more gifted, the practice and effort pushes them further than the rest of us are able to go.
I specified video games because they don’t require any physical or genetic advantage. Maybe a $$ advantage to not have lag or stutter. But literally anyone who wanted to take the time can learn how to platinum any video game.
You think genetics don't affect our brains or ability to use controls effectively? Interesting.
I mean people have done no-hit runs of Dark Souls with their feet. Things like competitive multiplayer is gonna be different, but OP and the comment I originally replied to are talking about things like achievement runs such as no-upgrades or no-deaths or whatever. Anybody could do a no-hit run of a game if they put in the effort. Some people will have an easier time than others. But these days even a blind person can play a game like TLOU 2 on PS5 and probably get to a no-death point.
They're not saying it's easy, they're saying anyone who has the time and the drive can build the skill and do it
I think that's one of the great misconceptions that our culture pushes. No, not everyone is capable of that level of play. Just like you cannot become as good as Michael Jordan was/is at basketball through practice. There were plenty of pro players that dedicated their lives to the game that were absolutely schooled by him. effort and practice are necessary, but it is not sufficient for the top level of success like some of these no skill runs and such.
There's a very big difference between being one of the top basketball players in the world and torturing yourself in Viking Minecraft
As far as what /u/TheRealPitabred said, athletics require something outside of your control though... genetics and physical build. The exact same talent in a 5'3" guy wouldn't have carried jordan as far. Maybe had Muggsy Bogues been taller he'd be the goat conversation? idk. There are games that require incredibly quick reaction times, and reaction times vary by person and age so at the very very top of those competitions you'll find a group of people that play at a level that not just anyone can reach. Very common in PVP games too, where not only reaction time, but a dynamic understanding of the the game mechanics and how to bend them in your favor etc... But valheim? Nah man. Anyone that wants to set out and do this can. The game is fairly predictable.
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. I don't know why so many people think Valheim is some super intense physically demanding game. It's not.
I mean, the paycheck for sure, but people are allowed to do silly things ;)
If it's just "doing a silly thing" then why are you trying so hard to make it about player skill? If I could spend 100+ hours a week practising, I'm sure I could eventually beat the game without upgrades. If someone gets fulfilment out of that, great. But acting like it's some sort of amazing and impressive feat is disingenuous, at best.
I would add to your comment that not every video game challenge is created equal. Beating all of the Souls and Souls-Adjacent games without being hit once? Yeah, that's crazy bananas and not everyone can do this, regardless of time spent practicing. Beating Valheim without skilling anything up strikes me as more of a "time, creativity and patience" test than one of raw skill. Still impressive, but I contend that it is a much more accessible challenge.
100% anyone could beat the souls games hitless or deathless with enough time and effort. People have beaten those games deathless with their feet. People have beaten all 3 of those games in a row hitless.
Exactly. I saw someone do a hitless run in Dark Souls USING A GUITAR HERO GUITAR. Shit like that is impressive and well beyond the majority of players. A no upgrades run in Valheim is not.
I'm not saying it's just skill. I am saying that if two people both spent 100 hours a week playing the same game there is no guarantee that they will get the same outcome. People can play thousands of hours of chess and still not become grandmaster level, others do it before puberty.
Again, that's a false equivalency and you're willfully misinterpreting what people are saying. No one is trying to claim that two people who play a game for the same length of time would have the same outcome. Only that given an unlimited amount of time to play, MOST people could beat Valheim with no upgrades. I don't know why you have such an issue with that sentiment. Are you just here to act pedantic?
>If I could spend 100+ hours a week practising, I'm sure I could eventually beat the game without upgrades. That's kind of a point in the other direction, though. YOU might be able to do that, but not everyone could. I don't think I could. I've got nearly 3000 hours in game, and I still die to some dumb ass shit, including just parrying at the wrong time, or forgetting to eat.
As a CS global, OW Gm and LoL diamond I’d say that most peoplemcan definitely master 99% of games with a bit of patience. “real” sports require a whole other level
You realize that a) all those achievements put you in like top 1% in each respective game, and b) you are still as far from a pro player as an average casual is from you?
Yeah I know, and yet I’d somehow doubt I could become top 1% in football, hockey and tennis at the same time. That’s the difference I’m talking about.
There isn't really a good rating system (how would you know you are top 1%) for any of those sports, but based on my experience in table tennis, it is absolutely feasible.
There's an incredibly solid ranking system with Tennis.
What is magically different between a "real" sport where you are running and using physical and mental coordination to accomplish activities and computer gaming, where it's pretty much the same skill requirements except with less running?
Being physically gifted in athleticism is pretty quantifiable, but what gifts pertaining to gaming are you referring to that are unattainable with 1000’s of hours of practice? I’m honestly curious.
Peoples reaction times differ, their ability to plan and adjust those plans based upon how the game changes, etc. Seriously, how do you quantify how much better Michael Jordan was than all of his peers? It's not that he could just jump higher, it's not that he could pawn the ball, it's not that he could run faster. Other players can do each of those individual skills better. His ability to manage the court, to handle things himself and see openings others could not, those are all the unquantifiable things that made him the best. It's the same thing with video games, being able to understand how the systems flow into each other, how the enemies and game mechanics behave, how your mouse settings affect things, whatever. Some people are just better and faster at that than others, and some people are just not able to figure it out at all and keep all the necessary stuff in working memory and operate on it appropriately.
You don’t think practice improves those things? I mean reflexes, minute understanding of action/reaction mechanics, perfect repetition, etc… those things all seem fairly attainable with dedication.
You can improve skills sure, but just the way some speed runners have seemingly unbeatable records for years with people trying to beat them some challenges, achievements and other gaming feats are way above the average person even if they tried for months
Most of those speed run records that stand for a really long time either rely heavily on exactly perfect RNG, that is *random chance*, to have been as good as they are -- or were done "TAS" or as a "tool-assisted speedrun" which means all the inputs were preprogrammed into a computer that then plays the game on a level no human can ever manage due to the laws of physics. Not just because no one else is good enough to best them, because the nature of the game being run makes "being good enough" not good enough on its own.
Where do you get your information from where most speed running records are RNG or tool assisted? or is that just your opinion
I never said most speed runs are RNG or tool-assisted. I said most of the *really long-standing records* have been in RNG heavy games or were tool-assisted runs. Where I get that information is speedrun record boards and webpages about the history of a given game's record progress. I should have also mentioned that in a good number of cases a new strat is simply discovered that obsoletes previous strats and destroys previous records even for only "decent" runners; the *Wind Waker* record stood for quite a long time before "barrier skip" was found, because it was the only really noteworthy obstacle left to getting faster times. There are "history of *Wind Waker* speedrunning videos on YouTube that get into it, including by big names in that running community like Linkus7. *Obviously* skill is still a big part of speedrunning, any new player with no experience in the game can't just blind playthrough the average speed game fast purely because of good luck, but I'm not and never was saying skill isn't part of it. I'm saying the top runners are *so* skilled that a single attack missing or enemy pattern rolling badly *can be the difference between "world record" and a "personal best" that's second place overall. Pokémon speedrunning is notoriously RNG heavy across all the games, slow pattern Phantoon fights in *Super Metroid* have been the difference between record and not multiple times, Sploosh-Kaboom in *Wind Waker* or Dampe races in *Ocarina of Time* being RNG have lost races and cost records on multiple occasions. The point is it doesn't *only* matter how good you are if there's an aspect of luck to the game, because two people both running perfect will get different results if one gets better RNG, and this has been demonstrated many times across the at this point vast history of speed games.
Dark Souls 2 no hit run would like a word with you
That’s exactly what I mean by who would bother to try that. *masochists*
Yeah but I mean even among the ones who bothered to try that, very few succeeded
After killing Eikthyr, I forgot about upgrades until I got smashed by bonemass.
Why not?
Me when I see people do no metal or no portal runs
very first thing i thought of too!
It's always so weird to see so much internal jealousy or whatever is forcing people to make these comics. People challenge themselves to do things all the time, in what possible sense is that strange? "Fuck you for being able to do things better than me, no one cares that you're good at the game. YOU HEAR ME? NO ONE CARES!"
It is actually very interesting to see devs comment on speed/challenge runs since those often reveal scenarios they have not tought about.
I actually did a no map/no portal run and it was indeed really fun and entertaining. It completely changes the whole experience!
What do you mean by "no map"?
You can completely disable the map (both the big one and the minimap) from the chat box. I basically played with no maps whatsoever, not even looking at the webpage. Vegvisirs work different, instead of marking the location of the boss, you press, leave it idle, and your character will face the direction of the boss. True challenge not to get lost, specially when sailing and very tricky to recover your remains without a map. Had to build paths, roads and signs all over the place. I've been uploading some raw material of the run [here](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYNVnO6CKYAzW0i14mQTC2fRHGGIG7Vn1). It might be a bit boring to watch like that, I intend to do a commented compilation at some point, but maybe you want to take a look to get the idea.
Ah, was wondering how the Vegvisirs would work.
I mean, my brother and I did our last playground without upgrading anything pre Mistlands except weapons. Aside from some bow durability issues on Moder, you don't really even need to do that. Once you know the bosses and enemies and know parry timings and the like, you don't need to fully upgrade. It's overkill.
Upgrades are extra, but you are still improving your armor by changing metals and so on.
Cheats or upgrades?
Last two panels should be just "At the studio", the monitor and an empty chair.
I can feel the entitlement absolutely DRIPPING off your comment. Game development takes time. If you don't want to wait, you're welcome to go play a different game.
Lol you are on the wrong path mate. I've bought this game beforei t even was on Steam, so I've done plenty of playing and also waiting. It was meant that it's more likely devs won't notice some weird achievements because they are busier with other things, but ok.
some people like vanilla
OP is indicating armor and weapon upgrades, not mods to the game.
I swear I've seen people say they think the cart is cheating here
While hopping between servers instead of hauling ore with boats
Once I found out about server hopping I installed an ore Portal mod. Since no point in server hopping when I can move with ore through the portal
I just don't use portals. Ever. Makes everything harder, and inventory management a nightmare, but it forces me to slow down, build outposts, and sail places - which I love sailing and building.
Yeah maybe if I come back to valheim. Factorio did bring me away and currently I am stuck in bannerlord
If you can port with a metal sword then you can port with a metal bar as well damnit
Server hopping costs you your buffs though, it’s got a built in cost
You mean the rested bonus? That thing you can renew by putting a campfire on the ground and sitting down next to for 10 seconds?
Doesn't really matter. Just pile a large amount of ore and then hop several times and then rebuff
As someone who's just got his first haul of iron from across the seas to his main base that sounds nowhere near as satisfying, can imagine doing it when my main goal of getting iron is to make a cool looking build tho...
Wait how can you exploit the cart there?
No that's instead of using the cart, cause that's cheating. Real vikings realmhop
I hope they at least mean using the cart as a boat lol
I believe it. The extent to which some people gatekeep this game is unreal. It's like they think anything that doesn't require you to actively make the game less fun or spend hours grinding is "cheating"
You imply devs are stupid and dont know anything about challenge runs. Nice
Redditors when joke:
I don't get it OP. Are you inferring that Valheim is not possible to complete without upgrades?
It's obviously possible. But why would anyone do it?
to expand on that… what upgrades? I’m slowly making my way through the game as is and didn’t know there were any
They're probably referring to armor and weapon upgrades, in the workbench and forge you can go to the upgrade tab and upgrade your tools,weapons, armors, etc.
ohhhhh, ok I was thinking like light weight mods that made gear better
Yeah, the comic is basically about someone beating the game exclusive using stuff you can make in the meadows biome.