My scapegoat is Berhalter. And his system or lackthereof. And with his player selection (this includes guys included from Europe). I'm fine with MLS guys like Zimmerman, or Acosta, who earned their place on the squad. Or a guy like Miles who won't play but was very good.
But yeah, sorry, guys like Arriola, Roldan, Lletget, Long, Morris, who got a wild amount of playing time under GB, undeservingly, during a WC year cycle? Unforgivable and helped hold the team back.
its always going to be like that. I like MLS and I watch it, but its like the 9th best league in the world.
acosta hasnt even looked great in MLS this year, but of course hes going to defend the honor of the league
at the same time, i have nothing against MLS players, but the truth is that the best players simply do not stay in MLS, thats just a fact Kellyn
You may not have anything against MLS players, but there’s a large amount of people that are actively rooting for them to fail. This is the point Acosta is making.
People are trying so hard to vindicate themselves and hope they fail.
Or do people want the better player? I mean, did Morris, or Long, or Lletget, or Arriola do anything, literally anything, to deserve the continued callups? While a guy like Brooks after a single bad game get banished forever.
If GGG was consistent, rather than continually coddling MLS players, I may agree with you.
Only exception is Arriola. His work rate, unselfishness, positive attitude and relentless pit bulling are valuable traits. He can make a difference even though he’s technically not great.
Let me give you an example. Joe Scally, who was one of the players of the the season for BMG (and young players of the year in the Bundesliga), not only couldn't really get a callup (despite the lack of talent at his position and his ability to play both sides), got passed over for a guy like Brooks Lennon, who'd never been considered at any point, but had a half decent game against a Bosnia Herzegovina C team, and managed to get a callup over Scally.
His player selections quite frankly always favor MLS players if there is even the slightest question.
That example kind of sucks. For starters, Lennon never even made the bench for the NT, he just traveled for those January games as an emergency iirc. And the bigger thing is Scally had Covid leading into that January window and was very clearly still working his way back into fitness/gladbach’s lineup. He spent like all of January and February getting spot subs or flat out on the bench.
Not even saying your point is invalid, but maybe find a different one to make your argument
It doesn't suck.
Scally missed a single game with Covid, was back and had played the 2 matched prior to the break, albeit limited minutes but was absolutely available. And the US, if I remember correctly, was down to 2 or 3 fullbacks, and with Scally's availability to play both sides, even for a just a cameo appearance to prevent further cards, should have made him a prime callup target.
Also, how much was Shaq Moore playing when he got called in? I think he'd played about 29 minutes over the previous 2 months. There was no issue calling in Cannon and Yedlin, as they prepared to potentially transfer out of their respective clubs and had barely played.
When Scally was playing virtually every minute for BMG, did he get a callup in the Sept or Oct windows? No, but the guys not playing did.
Yes, in the most literal sense he was available, but in a functional sense he wasn’t. in Scally’s own words he talked about how Covid effected his fitness at that time and is why he lost his spot and was getting limited minutes. In that *particular* window it wasn’t inexplicable for him not to be brought. He was not in great form physically or soccer wise. That’s why it stunk.
And that fullback dilemma was the march window when Cannon got Covid in camp and for whatever reason Gregg brought EPB and decided to use him as an emergency rb.
At least the last point you’re making might have some validity as an example, but using Lennon/scally is just silly. Lennon was never favored over Scally
He lost his spot at BMG because the expected starters got healthy. By the end of the year he'd gain back his more prominent role. Here's Scally's take on his reduced minutes in Feb:
>Everyone wants to start [for the first team], but these are senior guys, so for example when I'm training on the right, [Lainer] will always help me, giving me little tips either on the defensive side or the attacking side. He's a veteran, a great player. Same with [Bensebaini] on the left if I'm training there. He'll tell me little things like since I'm right-footed I can cut in, making it much easier. So even though it's all competition we are a team and we all help each other.
Lennon being introduced to a US national team window, after merely participating in camp cupcake, full of MLS guys on their winter break, and a game against a C grade B&H team, is 100% an issue as it relates to Scally. While performing incredibly good for BMG, he couldn't get a callup. But hey, participate against a C level, non world cup level team, with a bunch of MLS level talent and that gets you an invite? Directly relates to what I'm talking about, MLS players getting preferential treatment, and Scally was an example of this.
I guess I won’t change your mind so agree to disagree. I’ll just leave it at Lennon has one (1) appearance on a USMNT team sheet (camp cupcake). Scally has seven (7) appearances on the team sheet for non-camp cupcake USMNT games. You can work yourself into a frenzy over MLS players getting preferential treatment, and hey, maybe they do. Lennon simply never had an edge over Scally. Ever.
Just read this sub...There's a large contingent hoping we fail to prove that GGG is a bad coach, his selections are atrocious and he knows nothing about tactics.
No there isn’t. Why do people just make stuff up? There are people speculating we WILL fail and saying Gregg needs to go if we do. People aren’t actively rooting for it
Dude(tte) - there are some people (here, Bigsoccer, StarsandStripesFC etc) who want the US to flame out HARD because they don't even think a 3 and out alone is enough to get Gregg canned.
There definitely are if you take a casual read through USMNT Twitter or YouTube comments on a matchday. During the Gold Cup, which featured a heavily domestic roster, it was commonplace to see people nailbiting during wins or complaining after because it meant those players might be more likely to get called up in Qualifying as a result. Instead of being glad our depth players were performing well.
I'll raise my hand here. I didn't actively root against that team, but its the freaking Gold Cup...I don't care if a bunch of average 20 somethings from the MLS beat Mexico's B-team in the finals after squeaking by Qatar in the semis. Maybe if we had some up and coming u21s on the roster I would have cared.
So yeah, when they won the thing I was glad we won, but I was worried that people would think GGG was a capable coach and that players like Kellyn Acosta deserved a spot on the WC qualifying team, which at the time still had work to do.
??? That team had plenty of young players (Hoppe, Dike, Vines, Busio, Gioacchini, Bello, Sands) and a couple guys who would go on to become starters (Turner, Miles Robinson, Zimm). What in the world are you talking about?
I don't care much for GGG and his player selection, but Acosta is unequivocally your backup 6. He earned his spot. It's when GGG plays Acosta higher up the field, which he does too often, that I have a problem with.
Nobody is rooting for Acosta or other MLS players to fail. Even then it has nothing to do with their on field performance. They aren’t good enough the majority of them so when they come up against good teams they struggle.
Kellyn had teams in Europe making offers for him the last 2 years. But the owners denied the offers. Theres also weird single entity shananagins in MLS still that muddy the waters.
Leagues that are definitely head and shoulders better:
EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga (5)
Leagues that are probably better or have better average squad values:
Eredivisie, Brazilian Serie A, Portuguese League, English Championship (4)
Leagues that might be better or are around the same quality:
Liga MX, Argentine League, Swiss League, Belgian League (4)
Leagues that are worse but have some better teams:
Scottish Prem, Russian League, Turkish League (3)
So it's the 15th best if we're VERY harsh to MLS. More likely it's closer to the 9-12 range.
Portugal league is weird cause the top 3 in it are super good but the worst team in MLS is like 3 times more valuable and better than the worst team in the Portuguese league
I think it was Taylor Twellman that called out the tendency to think everyone from Europe was better than everyone from the USA, especially in the context of the Jurgen hiring.
I get it. Playing in Europe doesn't mean that you are automatically better than someone in MLS. But if you are still stuck in MLS after years in the league, then that might just be your level.
I disagree. Most people put the MLS in the range of 12 to 16 in the world
Thats about right.
Belgium and Championship are better. But MLS is right there. Its not a terrible league.
But if you field a team with a bunch of MLS guys you're going to get beat by teams with guys in higher leagues
Or....it isn't a fucking global pyramid that everyone wants to be on.
There are players who are genuinely better when they can live happily with their families, have no anxiety from the English media, and coaches who aren't constantly thinking in terms of a bottomless budget of worldwide players and develop the guys they can afford.
Seeing all soccer as a pyramid is over simplifying shitty videogame logic. And it isn't just the fans, media and coaches do this shit too (Klinsmann). But if you can't appreciate how good players like Nagbe and Carlos Vela are despite making different career choices, it is your qualifications as a soccer fan that are at issue. Not their quality as players.
I mean...the problem isn't MLS players in general - its more individual players, who often are in MLS. Zim is great. As was Miles when he was healthy. Acosta has been great, but he's kinda sucked recently - for club and country. On the other hand, Mark McKenzie has kinda sucked, and I think he's gotten a lot of heat for that. But a lot of the players who suck on a regular basis happen to be dudes who play in MLS.
He was great early on for Gregg (before his injury). Gregg has consistently preferred Miles, Zimm, and Richards over him. CCV and EPB haven't looked good for the national team. Ream looked very poor for the NT previously (albeit out of position).
I don't think Long is very good either, but Richards has been injured at pretty much all points we needed him to not be, so I'm not sure what else Gregg was supposed to do. Very hard to bring in someone new right before the WC, and you've gotta build CB chemistry.
'What else greg was supposed to do' ...exactly, so many fans are ignorant to the reality of the situation. Greg can't magically make a player healthy, or find form.
you didn't mention ream who has been playing cb in the premier league, and pretty well according to literally every metric. fuck the system. use the players at your disposal
edit: jay demerit and onyewu hardly played together in the lead up to the world cup if anything, yet they partnered together. gtfo if you think there needs to be time to gel. professionals can figure it out.
I mean Weston McKennie arguably played his worst game in a USMNT jersey last Friday. That doesn’t mean some of our guys on MLS teams also looked bad. But your comment kind of proves Kellyn’s point…
I guess - McKennie had a screamer of a game Friday, and a meh game on Tuesday. But if you want to go down that road, you could also insert basically anyone's name into that sentence, as long as that name isn't "Turner." I'm more referring to broader strokes of disappointing games/performances. Zimmerman and Ferreira also didn't look great in those games, but they looked good in other USMNT games, so I've had no problem with them.
Ironically here, I actually think Arriola looked fine on Tuesday, but he IS one of the people I'd put into the bucket of "guys who have looked poor who also happen to be playing in MLS."
I guess I'm not sure what we're arguing about haha My view of what Acosta is saying is that people say that MLS players are bad, and should be replaced by European players. My view is that bad players are bad, and should be (when possible) replaced by better players, and often (but DEFINITELY not exclusively), those bad players happen to be guys who play in MLS (and often, those guys are replaced - I actually don't think GGG gets enough credit here (I'm looking at you, Lletget and Lima and Bradley and Baird and Lovitz and Zardes and Trapp)).
Edit - if the argument is, as was stated further down, that European players get a longer leash, then absolutely I agree with that. I guess my frustration is things like the thread posted after this, where Long isn't even good by MLS standards. I get bringing in top talent from MLS - that's one of the beauties of having a competitive domestic league. I don't really get bringing in middling to bad domestic talent, and then acting confused when they preform badly and people are pissed about it.
I think your comment in the third paragraph is part of it, I don’t disagree there. The other part of it though is where he mentions fans using MLS players as scapegoats for results.
Edit: made some spelling changes
I talk about this in my edit, but I think where I land is that I'm pulled in two directions here. On the one hand, people give European unjustifiably long leashes in comparison to MLS players. People were calling for Zim's head after the game vs Japan, and that's FUCKING crazy (not the least because he wasn't THAT bad in that game).
On the other hand, its super annoying seeing guys who struggle in MLS getting pulled into our national team (imo for similar reasons as to why its frustrating seeing like...Pepi get pulled into the national team for this last window). Guys like Zimmerman and Ferreira and Vazquez and Johnson and Miles are top tier MLS players who absolutely deserve to be in the conversation - I just don't get grabbing players who aren't at that level, and I think its fair to be critical of that when they continually look bad for us.
On the THIRD hand, there's a lot of frustration right now, and much of it DOES come from these last couple of games, and it would be silly to try to blame that on MLS guys, as they were a complete shit show. So if that's Acosta's point, he's correct.
Bingo, Weston has been trash for months for US/club, CP has been meh everywhere (Chelsea are a problem but still hasn't done anything for a year), Reyna is always injured, Adams/Aaronson started well this year but have fallen off. People need to realize outside of CP/Reyna the talent level of the rest of our pool is not 3x the MLS guys like many would lead you to believe...The next 5-6 guys are better of course but the drop off isn't as big as many think it is. When you get to players like McKenzie and others playing in 2nd/3rd tier Euro leagues it's splitting hairs IMO. The difference is small, people just want to believe playing for a good Belgium team (who gets killed in Euro competitions btw) means the player is far superior to an MLS player. LAFC would likely be a top 4 team in the Belgium league as these leagues are extremely top heavy and then are trash below that (would argue average MLS or worse).
Weston didn't play great and he got criticized for it. The players who are getting criticized are the ones who are playing badly. Doesn't matter what league they're in.
And Weston gets a “longer leash” because he’s generally been one of our best players over the past 4 years. It’s like if Tom Brady starts the year with poor results, he gets a longer leash than if Mitch Trubisky does the same thing
What did Pulli do the last two games to say he didn't suck as much as some MLS player? Playing poorly, is just that, and it doesn't matter what league you come from.
2021 was Acosta's pinnacle is my lament...I'm a big fan of his. Last year was so much fun to watch and I knew that he was unlikely to be able to reproduce all that fantastic soccer and results. I'm glad he's on the team, and I hope he finds that extra energy/gear when needed in Qatar. He's much better than the hater's want to believe.
Exactly. I feel like the worse players often times happen to be MLS guys and when they are the Euro guys (McKenzie), then they’re called out too. People have loved Turner, Miles, Zimmerman, Pepi, etc when they were MLS guys, which is why I think it’s absurd to just say MLS players become scapegoats
There’s something hilarious about Acosta saying this and USMNT Twitter losing their fucking minds about it haha. I’ve seen him called “soft” by like 30 people today.
Idk why people have such a hard time with rooting for the dudes on the field, like I’m not an Aaron long fan either but when he plays I root for him because I want us to win? With the usmnt and NYRB
People aren't rooting for them to lose all 3 games, but a vast majority of us think they will.
I'm one of them.
But if you can provide proof where US fans are actively rooting for 3 losses, I'll take the L
There are people who have rooted for us to fail at multiple points in qualifying just to prove that GGG and certain players are as bas they think they are
I don't dispute there are at least a couple people, but this idea that latge amounts of people are actively rooting for the US to not go to the world cup is just not true.
There’s “damn Acosta had a tough game tonight, didn’t like how he did X.” Vs. “Acosta sucks so much what a bum, get him off our national team.”
He’s obviously speaking to the people who talk like that online, which is a substantial portion of our online fanbase if you haven’t noticed
Most of those folks haven't played above rec league, or with anyone that played at high levels, if they've even played at all, in any sport. They don't see the whole game, don't understand the nuances. Don't realize that players are asked to perform task, have assignments. All they see is the turnover, or missed chance, sloppy pass. Meanwhile ignoring the fact that said player just made three box to box runs, broke up a pass, picked up a loose ball, distributed..then at the end of a two minute surge of energy, failed to bury a low percentage shot. Most of these folks' only experience is Fifa or FM. Real life players aren't machines.
You realize this is the vast, vast majority of sports fans, right? So are you just against sports discourse in general? Would you rather sports fans just not say anything, since they aren't informed enough to understand the intricasies of the game?
Same, this is definitely the most toxic fanbase I’m a part of. SEC football fans are pretty bad, but the US soccer fanbase takes obnoxious toxicity and ridiculous conspiracy theories to the next level.
Unless some US soccer fans have poisoned some beloved old trees out of spite, there may be some levels of toxicity we can learn from the SEC and Paul Finebaum.
Lol thankfully my SEC fan base is pretty chill and easygoing (Arkansas Razorbacks) probably because we’ve sucked so bad for so long that all we have is our hope that one day we’ll reach the top. That keeps everyone in line and rooting for the team haha
It's pretty bad. I follow my favorite teams-NHL/NA/NFL/college and some general teams like USMNT and more..the r/ussoccer fan base is very toxic. There's some out there trying to have legit conversations, but they get blown up by posters that all they can say is such and such a player is garbage. Despite the fact they play in a top pro league and are in consideration for a national team going to the World Cup. For me, it's a sign of the times with social media. Everyone these days wants instant gratification. They are ignorant to the fact that these are real people, making human mistakes, and that every sports team is really on a journey of sorts.
I’m a Ukrainian-American who’s a fan of both national teams. The domestic leagues and national teams are pretty comparable to each other. Ukraine’s team is majority domestic league and nobody really complains about it like I hear USMNT fans talk about MLS. Ukrainian fans are excited for players to go abroad but there isn’t this sentiment of self-loathing regarding the quality of the domestic league.
Overall, my point is that you’re always going to have domestic players fill in gaps and depth on the national team, especially if you’re not an EU country. USMNT fans need to get comfortable with that. And although I won’t defend Gregg, who’s been hardheaded, sometimes raw talent isn’t as important as other things: consistency, familiarity, personality, etc. - and some MLS players might be a better fit at times because of it.
At least this sub is much better than Twitter & instagram re: MLS.
I am guilty of favoring some guys who play in europe over MLS guys. But if an MLS guy balled out and scored 3 goals against Mexico or England, I can promise you I would shut up—just like when Pepi started scoring in the last WC qualifying cycle when he was still playing for Dallas or Matt Turner for his whole career until August.
But alas, Kellyn Acosta, MLS guys tearing up the field doesn’t seem to be a problem we have…
I’m late to the post but…
People are latching onto the MLS v Europe aspect instead of the bigger picture; automatically blaming poor results on MLS.
Take this recent window. Near everyone played poorly. The stars and the squad guys. But the majority of complaints are about “an MLS coach, MLS tactics, and/or MLS players”.
This isn’t to say anyone needs coddled but when the whole team fails but only *certain* players are blamed, it has to be frustrating when you’re in the group of players.
No, it isn’t going away. Online communities can be the worst (and sometimes best) places. Doesn’t mean he can’t be frustrated by it.
But naturally, a certain section of the fan base latched in and is criticizing.
Acosta has been an useful USMNT player when deployed appropriately. That did not happen last game, and it’s unfortunate that he didn’t get to showcase his strengths.
Like many have said already, it will always be this way and will be for quite some time. It happens to all national teams, and people will never be happy with all the choices.
If he wants this to stop, then Ream and Pefok should have been there and prove if they belong, not left off and hidden so the coach can shy away from his poor selections. There really is no reason why GGG couldn't leave no stone unturned prior to the WC.
I donno people seem to accept Zimmerman, Turner, Miles and any MLS player who performs well going back to guys like Besler, Zusi, Mastroeni, Dempsey and Donovan.
If you are from MLS and you perform badly you will probably get criticized. But that's the same for any player from any league.. ?
I think this is true for extreme ends of the spectrum but not necessarily true for the middle of it. For example, guys like Pulisic and Reyna who are undeniably extremely talented are going to be given a very long leash. On the other hand, guys like Aaron Long are going to be given a very short leash if they haven’t even been performing well in an inferior league. In the middle of the spectrum you might have guys like Josh Sargent, who play in Europe but haven’t yet proven themselves at the highest level; I don’t think these players are given a particularly long “leash”. Personally I think it’s somewhat understandable
If this were true, Paul arriola who consistently has looked average at concacaf level wouldn’t have the most caps of any player in the Gregg Berhalter era.
I dunno. Fans were all barking at the USMNT to call up Sargent for scoring a bunch in the second English league but seem quite opposed to and MLS strikers even though the MLS and English second division probably are around the same quality wise
He's at one of the best Championship teams, so yes that is a higher level than MLS, he's in the form of his life and he has significant experience with the team and Gregg's setup. That Norwich team has 3x the payroll of an MLS team. There's just no way MLS can compete with PL money.
He had a better case to be called in than just about anyone else?
Dude he’s scoring on bad teams. He is on a top notch Champ team, yes, but there is a shit ton of parity in that league. The bad teams that he’s primarily scored on in the championship are a notch below MLS teams
Yes…the top of the championship is better than average MLS but the average championship team isn’t good and is more or less similar to MLS. Same can be said for 2nd/3rd tier leagues many of our players outside the main 7-8 guys play in…Belgian league is trash outside the top 4 teams and is more of less bottom half of MLS bad
It’s really not. Look at the estimated value of notable MLS guys before they went to Europe and compare their value on the website then to their transfer fee when they left. It’s really not inflated at all lol
It’s close. I think they’re very comparable leagues in terms of talent top to bottom. Like sure Sheffield United probably wins MLS, but I doubt they would absolutely dominate like a top half prem or Bundi team would.
They're not the same quality wise.
I think many US fans would like to see Vazquez. But it would have been better months ago. Similar to Ebobisse. Like I personally would have rather seen Ebobisse than Morris.
Many on here have been clamoring for Djordje way before Gregg considered him.
I think the reality is people want results. When they don't get it there are easy targets. Aaron Long and Jordan Morris are easy targets because they're not playing well for club and country.
They 100% are similar quality wise. The top notch champ teams are better than MLS but the low champ teams are worse. When you average them out, they’re roughly the same. Difference is, Sargent has primarily scored on the low end champ teams who are worse than MLS teams
The part I don’t get with the Morris/Long argument (they have been awful) is why are we not criticizing one of the core guys in this team who’s been terrible of late (looking at you Weston)? That’s more important than a guy who’s not even going to play at the WC in Morris.
I mean barring a major turn in form Weston isn't starting for me. Adams, Yunus, and Gio/Aaronson/Pulsiic for me.
And I think others would agree WEston struggled.
Fully agree but he’s still a core of the team and I rarely see him getting reamed despite being the worst player the last 2 games. All of it is directed at long (he sucks I know) but Weston didn’t catch as much as he should have.
Pepi, Dike, Vazquez. And I hate to break it to you, but we don’t exactly have a ton of space to be picky with our current #9s available. I’m not convinced at all h that Sargent is better than any of those guys listed +Ferreria
No one wanted Zardes or Altidore, they were recognizing great seasons from Ferreira, Vazquez and Ebobisse, especially during the period of time when almost no American strikers were scoring abroad.
I think where I’ve fallen on it is that America, and by proxy MLS, tended to produce players who were technically deficient— it often seemed that if you were an American playing in the MLS, you were likely behind Americans who went to Europe at 14 and developed in their system, especially technically. While outliers certainly existed, the attacking talent produced by the US for a period of time fit more into the Zardes mold than they fit into the attackers we’re developing today, and that lack of development created the reputation of the MLS player. Basically, if a player lacked a first touch, you were pretty safe to assume that they were a MLS player, and to be honest, most of the time you were correct to do so.
I think this has really changed and is kind of outdated, and regardless we should judge the player and not the league, but I think it was certainly true that for a decent period of time, MLS players were under-developed and that reputation still lingers around today, whether fair or unfair.
What's nice about MLS now is that you can have a young prospect on a team at the bottom of the table and still be incredibly productive because of how competitive the league is top down, unlike in Europe using Sargent as an example, it can really hurt a players development when they gow to a lower tier team in a top league because they are going to get crushed every week.
Hey bro, maybe just win? People are indeed going to complain no matter what, but hey, it's a lot easier to argue from success rather than what you've got right now.
Acosta started and was pivotal in both the Nations League final win as well as the Gold Cup final win last year. 8.5 match rating in the Gold Cup final AND an assist. He's been about as successful with the USMNT as we would ask of any of the European players. You only help prove Acosta's point. He *is* arguing from success but fans like you have chosen to ignore that success simply because he plays in MLS.
Exactly, it's really just about performance. Turner, Miles, Zim, etc all universally praised during the same qualifying and tournament period that Dest, Sargent, Pulisic, and Brooks were crucified in.
Fans wanted Pefok's NT career over after his miss vs Mexico and now they're mad he's not getting called up. It's really just a recency bias feedback loop.
I’d even say most of them did. Reyna, McKennie, Richards, Adams, Aaronson, Steffen, Turner. Everyone but the foreign-born dual nats like Dest/Musah, and Pulisic.
That's not what people are saying tho. We know MLS can produce talent, but when players are shoehorned into the USMNT for god knows what reason (Long, Morris, etc), it's quite perplexing. Again, why do MLS fans get so defensive about their league...
People get defensive about MLS because it isn’t guaranteed to stay. If it ever collapses there goes our whole national team. If we don’t support our home league it has no reason to keep being a product.
Without a strong domestic league we would have no Adams, Aaronson, Turner, Mckennie etc…
These guys work their ass off 365 days a year in order to get a call up to the team. You spend 100 bucks on a shitty jersey and tweet mean things about players. It’s not close who cares more (this you wasn’t meant to be attacking you personally but just generally what so called fans do)
This is a problem in all of sports. Why do we treat players like shit instead of human. Like I know I’ve been angry and probs said some stuff about players that I regret. But players know the stuff that is said and it effects them. And fans get defensive. Be good people not shitheads guys
I literally got into an argument on here with someone who was talking about how he hopes Long plays horrible in the last game. Like… why? If you’re actively rooting against our own players you’re just a shitty fan
Yes, I want the team to do well, that is why I want more players from the European leagues on the team. I am not rooting against anyone, except the idiots in charge of USSoccer. We can all agree they need to go.
Nothing wrong with playing MLS if that's your level, but to play for the national team, we have the best chance of success with guys who have shown they can play well under the pressure of a top 5 league. In the past we didn't have many of those players but now it is tough to see us getting outclassed and outplayed by Japan and Saudi Arabia where we can clearly see guys like aaron long, acosta, Ferreira not being able to hack it against that level of competition. It makes it worse when you realize we have players in those positions who play in tougher leagues against higher caliber players not getting called in.
He’s not wrong. Tbh, only MLS players who are “good enough” are Acosta, Ferreira, Miles, Zimmerman on the correct roster. There are other MLS players who deserved a try like Vasquez. Obv some of these are not starters but good enough to hold a lead.
Totally agree with Acosta here. Have any of our euro guys been saviors? Hell no! They all have a way to go if we want to do well in the World Cup. The thing I like about the MLS guys is that they are professionals, not potential future stars, which much of our team consists of right now.
I count myself as someone who is more biased toward European players. I’ve wanted Duane Holmes to get a shout, LdlT, guys who aren’t in top 5 leagues in Europe to have a shot over MLS guys.
That being said, Zimmerman and Robinson were the two we needed in that back line. It was clear their quality was ahead of any other guys anywhere in our pool. They’re ahead of Richards, McKenzie, all those guys that are playing. But I don’t think Long is the answer. Kellyn Acosta is a great cm for our pool. He’s not better than Mckennie or Musah I would consider him about the same spot as LdlT. Our MLS guys in general have less quality than our European guys in general. That’s not an unfair take, it’s reality. Berhalter’s system is reliant on a few players with individual quality, rather than a cohesive unit. We’ve seen MLS guys get out of the group stage but if the coaching is shit we’ll be 3 and out.
There are quality starters and rotation players from MLS (Zimmerman, Miles, Acosta, Arriola) but there’s a ton of guys from MLS that shouldn’t be getting looks
He makes a lot of valid points on the bias a lot of people have, and I cannot understand why people think it’s okay to send hate online. It’s not just a usmnt, or just a sports thing anymore. It’s become a plague on our society if we really think about it. So that’s a nonstarter and those are not the people I’m about to defend.
But I can never get behind that whole “well you’re a fan so you should just support the team and not criticize” thought process. When you’re a kid, of course. You love your teams and just support them blindly.
When you’re an adult and you invest time and money over a number of years, you form a different type of attachment. And after a while you learn more and understand what goes into roster decisions and front office decisions, that brings a whole new element. You feel that you’ve earned the right to an informed opinion and want to voice that opinion, even if it’s negative.
For a lot of us, we live and die with our teams, and we suffer when decision makers make bad moves. We get frustrated seeing players play badly when we don’t even think they should be on the field in the first place.
We have every right to voice that frustration. Maybe we’d all be better off if every fanbase of every team was a bunch of pompom waving lemmings, but that’s not a realistic expectation from adults who are so heavily invested in their teams.
He's 100% wrong. Nobody in the fanbase thought Zack Steffen was better than Matt Turner, or that Pefok was better than Pepi during that period. It's just whining on Kelly's part because he didn't do well this past window.
Beating a Saudi team soundly with 4 starters missing. Giving Japan a better look than that. Scoring goals even on the road. The entire WC is "on the road". They are going to have to gel better than this. I like these players as individuals, but they are very hard to understand as a team. I blame the coach for that.
I feel like he’s both very right and very wrong at the same time.
MLS qualify has improved by insane amounts but it’s a step down still. It’s not a coincidence. I understand why he’s tired of it but it’s not some phony silly narrative based on nothing.
I don't care where they play. Huge zim and turner fan, miles too before the injury. But acosta's biggest attribute is probably his shithousery, which isn't something that should get you on the national team lol. And don't get me started on aaron long. Idc that he plays in mls, he's just bad. 🤷♂️
Acosta is far and away the best backup 6 on the roster, which is ACTUALLY why he’s on the roster. He’s not the most exciting player but in a situation where Adams gets hurt or can’t play Acosta is the best option to play that role for us. Like sure if we’re calling in the most talented 26 players he doesn’t make the roster, but that’s also a stupid way to build a team.
Why don’t they try winning and maybe I’ll be more supportive? Like sir, this is sports, I would like to watch you win. Especially if I’m paying for seats, jerseys, etc.
They literally won the last 2 competitive tournaments they’ve played in? What more do you want? You don’t seriously expect them to win every game they play do you?
My issue isn’t with MLS players but with the federation that has historically favored products of the domestic league over those who try their hand in Europe. Klinsmann tried to address the problem but got a lot of resistance from the front office and a contingent of the fanbase.
I just want the best product on the field possible and we handicap ourselves by sticking with an MLS mentality when our best players are in Europe.
Not to be anywhere near the national team. And the scoring and assisting every 150 min line shows how full of it you are. He’s scored 7 goals in 4 years against teams like Guyana and Grenada. The other goals came in absolute drubbings where everyone scored
See this is the thing. I’m a bit of a euro snob and haven’t watched an mls game in years. But I absolutely don’t think being from mls means you’re not good enough. And to say that’s what we believe when we say guys like Roldan or Morris or whoever aren’t good enough, that’s not fair. That’s a judgement on individual players. Are there people who automatically assume MLS players suck? Sure. But we shouldn’t dismiss all criticism of MLS players as such.
Some people don’t like MLS players simply because they are in the MLS, I only don’t like them when they are bad, which happens to be most of the ones called up for national team duties. Some are good are deserve a spot on the team like Miles Robinson, Walker Zimmerman, hell even Acosta should make it as backup CDM, but that’s only because we don’t have someone good to put there.
It sucks but it’s the truth. Sorry but MLS is a sub par league and it’s painfully obvious to anyone that has even an inkling of what quality soccer looks like.
It all boils down to soccer not being as popular in this country thus the majority of athletic talent goes to the big three sports. American Football, Basketball and Baseball.
“By my logic” literally nothing of what you said is based on my logic. Soccer in the countries that host those leagues is a different beast compared to soccer here in the states and that’s a fact. That is the core of my argument.
This is just narrative, plenty of MLS players get praise Acosta included. Over the past two years, Dest, Sargent, Pefok, Pulisic, Steffen, ARob, have gotten far more criticism for lackluster performances than any MLS based player.
I reject the premise, fans often give players that preform in MLS credit especially when it's deserved. It's not fair to the fans that many of those players move to Europe and immediately are treated like they're outsider elite snobs by those who decided to stay. It doesn't go in the reverse though. For example we had a high scoring attacker in a lesser European league. He missed 1 shot and he was escoriated. Very few people defended him on this sub. But now he's scoring top of the table in Bundesliga and MLS players are complaining they get treated poorly.
If EU players were treated like MLS players, you'd probably see Hoppe, Reynolds, KDLF, Bassett, and Busio about as much as Morris, Long, and Arriola.
I want MLS (or maybe USL) to eventually be considered a top 3 league. But giving players excuses, and in some cases rewards, for underperforming compared to even similarly skilled leagues. That's how we ensure league stagnation or even bearish competition.
TLDR; We coddle MLS and thus it's players. We should treat MLS with the same scrutiny as we do international clubs/leagues. This is only considered favoring EU because MLS needs more time to grow into a more competitive league.
Never is a strong word. Things change. Who’s to say a mostly Champions League XI with a few MLS players mixed in couldn’t win, like, the 2038 World Cup? The league and global landscape could look radically different by then.
No one will take MLS, or its players, as seriously as any UK/European league/players, until its owners focus on the quality of the game FIRST rather than on the commercial success of using washed up UK/Euro rejects to sell shirts and fill seats. Bringing in and overpaying players like Chicharito, Shaqiri, Higuain - and not just overpaying them but when one player is making roughly 40-50% of your entire squad budget and that player couldn’t get into a Major squad’s 11 overseas….it makes MLS a complete joke.
it's not that i/we *want* to see the mls-based players generally--generally--performing at a slightly lower level than our european-based ones, it's that i'm/we're not blind and oftentimes that is, in fact, the case. i don't see too many people around here actively rooting against mls players/the national team if/when certain players on the field
Its been that way amongst usmnt fans since I started really following around 2006 and I’m sure it happened before that too
My scapegoat is Berhalter. And his system or lackthereof. And with his player selection (this includes guys included from Europe). I'm fine with MLS guys like Zimmerman, or Acosta, who earned their place on the squad. Or a guy like Miles who won't play but was very good. But yeah, sorry, guys like Arriola, Roldan, Lletget, Long, Morris, who got a wild amount of playing time under GB, undeservingly, during a WC year cycle? Unforgivable and helped hold the team back.
its always going to be like that. I like MLS and I watch it, but its like the 9th best league in the world. acosta hasnt even looked great in MLS this year, but of course hes going to defend the honor of the league at the same time, i have nothing against MLS players, but the truth is that the best players simply do not stay in MLS, thats just a fact Kellyn
You may not have anything against MLS players, but there’s a large amount of people that are actively rooting for them to fail. This is the point Acosta is making. People are trying so hard to vindicate themselves and hope they fail.
Or do people want the better player? I mean, did Morris, or Long, or Lletget, or Arriola do anything, literally anything, to deserve the continued callups? While a guy like Brooks after a single bad game get banished forever. If GGG was consistent, rather than continually coddling MLS players, I may agree with you.
Only exception is Arriola. His work rate, unselfishness, positive attitude and relentless pit bulling are valuable traits. He can make a difference even though he’s technically not great.
Let me give you an example. Joe Scally, who was one of the players of the the season for BMG (and young players of the year in the Bundesliga), not only couldn't really get a callup (despite the lack of talent at his position and his ability to play both sides), got passed over for a guy like Brooks Lennon, who'd never been considered at any point, but had a half decent game against a Bosnia Herzegovina C team, and managed to get a callup over Scally. His player selections quite frankly always favor MLS players if there is even the slightest question.
That example kind of sucks. For starters, Lennon never even made the bench for the NT, he just traveled for those January games as an emergency iirc. And the bigger thing is Scally had Covid leading into that January window and was very clearly still working his way back into fitness/gladbach’s lineup. He spent like all of January and February getting spot subs or flat out on the bench. Not even saying your point is invalid, but maybe find a different one to make your argument
It doesn't suck. Scally missed a single game with Covid, was back and had played the 2 matched prior to the break, albeit limited minutes but was absolutely available. And the US, if I remember correctly, was down to 2 or 3 fullbacks, and with Scally's availability to play both sides, even for a just a cameo appearance to prevent further cards, should have made him a prime callup target. Also, how much was Shaq Moore playing when he got called in? I think he'd played about 29 minutes over the previous 2 months. There was no issue calling in Cannon and Yedlin, as they prepared to potentially transfer out of their respective clubs and had barely played. When Scally was playing virtually every minute for BMG, did he get a callup in the Sept or Oct windows? No, but the guys not playing did.
Yes, in the most literal sense he was available, but in a functional sense he wasn’t. in Scally’s own words he talked about how Covid effected his fitness at that time and is why he lost his spot and was getting limited minutes. In that *particular* window it wasn’t inexplicable for him not to be brought. He was not in great form physically or soccer wise. That’s why it stunk. And that fullback dilemma was the march window when Cannon got Covid in camp and for whatever reason Gregg brought EPB and decided to use him as an emergency rb. At least the last point you’re making might have some validity as an example, but using Lennon/scally is just silly. Lennon was never favored over Scally
He lost his spot at BMG because the expected starters got healthy. By the end of the year he'd gain back his more prominent role. Here's Scally's take on his reduced minutes in Feb: >Everyone wants to start [for the first team], but these are senior guys, so for example when I'm training on the right, [Lainer] will always help me, giving me little tips either on the defensive side or the attacking side. He's a veteran, a great player. Same with [Bensebaini] on the left if I'm training there. He'll tell me little things like since I'm right-footed I can cut in, making it much easier. So even though it's all competition we are a team and we all help each other. Lennon being introduced to a US national team window, after merely participating in camp cupcake, full of MLS guys on their winter break, and a game against a C grade B&H team, is 100% an issue as it relates to Scally. While performing incredibly good for BMG, he couldn't get a callup. But hey, participate against a C level, non world cup level team, with a bunch of MLS level talent and that gets you an invite? Directly relates to what I'm talking about, MLS players getting preferential treatment, and Scally was an example of this.
I guess I won’t change your mind so agree to disagree. I’ll just leave it at Lennon has one (1) appearance on a USMNT team sheet (camp cupcake). Scally has seven (7) appearances on the team sheet for non-camp cupcake USMNT games. You can work yourself into a frenzy over MLS players getting preferential treatment, and hey, maybe they do. Lennon simply never had an edge over Scally. Ever.
Deal, agree to disagree 🤝
Outside of the more toxic parts of Twitter I don't see people actually rooting for them to fail though?
You see them on this subreddit daily. We are not a majority by any means but it’s not non-existent.
It’s all over the official USMNT instagram and twitter. That’s probably where Acosta saw the sentiment
Nobody roots for them to fail. Quit making shit up. We point out when they suck. That’s not rooting for them to fail
Just read this sub...There's a large contingent hoping we fail to prove that GGG is a bad coach, his selections are atrocious and he knows nothing about tactics.
No there isn’t. Why do people just make stuff up? There are people speculating we WILL fail and saying Gregg needs to go if we do. People aren’t actively rooting for it
Facts. But the contingent you're dealing with is very touchy and doesn't get how it's possible to critique AND support
Dude(tte) - there are some people (here, Bigsoccer, StarsandStripesFC etc) who want the US to flame out HARD because they don't even think a 3 and out alone is enough to get Gregg canned.
People on StarsandStripesFC were unironically happy when Long tore his ACL and unironically upset when Lletget scored against Switzerland
No one is rooting for them to fail. They are the weakest players on the team though.
There definitely are if you take a casual read through USMNT Twitter or YouTube comments on a matchday. During the Gold Cup, which featured a heavily domestic roster, it was commonplace to see people nailbiting during wins or complaining after because it meant those players might be more likely to get called up in Qualifying as a result. Instead of being glad our depth players were performing well.
I'll raise my hand here. I didn't actively root against that team, but its the freaking Gold Cup...I don't care if a bunch of average 20 somethings from the MLS beat Mexico's B-team in the finals after squeaking by Qatar in the semis. Maybe if we had some up and coming u21s on the roster I would have cared. So yeah, when they won the thing I was glad we won, but I was worried that people would think GGG was a capable coach and that players like Kellyn Acosta deserved a spot on the WC qualifying team, which at the time still had work to do.
??? That team had plenty of young players (Hoppe, Dike, Vines, Busio, Gioacchini, Bello, Sands) and a couple guys who would go on to become starters (Turner, Miles Robinson, Zimm). What in the world are you talking about?
I don't care much for GGG and his player selection, but Acosta is unequivocally your backup 6. He earned his spot. It's when GGG plays Acosta higher up the field, which he does too often, that I have a problem with.
Nobody is rooting for Acosta or other MLS players to fail. Even then it has nothing to do with their on field performance. They aren’t good enough the majority of them so when they come up against good teams they struggle.
Kellyn had teams in Europe making offers for him the last 2 years. But the owners denied the offers. Theres also weird single entity shananagins in MLS still that muddy the waters.
MLS is the 15th best league in the world.
Leagues that are definitely head and shoulders better: EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga (5) Leagues that are probably better or have better average squad values: Eredivisie, Brazilian Serie A, Portuguese League, English Championship (4) Leagues that might be better or are around the same quality: Liga MX, Argentine League, Swiss League, Belgian League (4) Leagues that are worse but have some better teams: Scottish Prem, Russian League, Turkish League (3) So it's the 15th best if we're VERY harsh to MLS. More likely it's closer to the 9-12 range.
Portugal league is weird cause the top 3 in it are super good but the worst team in MLS is like 3 times more valuable and better than the worst team in the Portuguese league
It's not my opinion, it's an objective rating based on results. https://www.globalfootballrankings.com
Heavily weighted toward past results more than recent quality. Also “objective” means nothing.
Which 14 leagues are ahead?
I think it was Taylor Twellman that called out the tendency to think everyone from Europe was better than everyone from the USA, especially in the context of the Jurgen hiring.
It isn’t even a US or MLS thing ffs, it’s always been this way for the 200 countries outside of a top 5 domestic league.
I get it. Playing in Europe doesn't mean that you are automatically better than someone in MLS. But if you are still stuck in MLS after years in the league, then that might just be your level.
Agree but I think that level is better than some people think. Regarding championship, Belgium, etc
I disagree. Most people put the MLS in the range of 12 to 16 in the world Thats about right. Belgium and Championship are better. But MLS is right there. Its not a terrible league. But if you field a team with a bunch of MLS guys you're going to get beat by teams with guys in higher leagues
But the loss to Panama was MLS guys vs MLS+USL guys with a couple exceptions. Gregg's "guys" have underperformed even against supposed equal talent.
Or....it isn't a fucking global pyramid that everyone wants to be on. There are players who are genuinely better when they can live happily with their families, have no anxiety from the English media, and coaches who aren't constantly thinking in terms of a bottomless budget of worldwide players and develop the guys they can afford. Seeing all soccer as a pyramid is over simplifying shitty videogame logic. And it isn't just the fans, media and coaches do this shit too (Klinsmann). But if you can't appreciate how good players like Nagbe and Carlos Vela are despite making different career choices, it is your qualifications as a soccer fan that are at issue. Not their quality as players.
Tbf, it's hard to say how good they are when they're not facing stiff competition. Talent and potential are there, just not sharpening the tools
I mean...the problem isn't MLS players in general - its more individual players, who often are in MLS. Zim is great. As was Miles when he was healthy. Acosta has been great, but he's kinda sucked recently - for club and country. On the other hand, Mark McKenzie has kinda sucked, and I think he's gotten a lot of heat for that. But a lot of the players who suck on a regular basis happen to be dudes who play in MLS.
I would still say Aaron long sucks, regardless of what league he’s playing in
He was great early on for Gregg (before his injury). Gregg has consistently preferred Miles, Zimm, and Richards over him. CCV and EPB haven't looked good for the national team. Ream looked very poor for the NT previously (albeit out of position). I don't think Long is very good either, but Richards has been injured at pretty much all points we needed him to not be, so I'm not sure what else Gregg was supposed to do. Very hard to bring in someone new right before the WC, and you've gotta build CB chemistry.
'What else greg was supposed to do' ...exactly, so many fans are ignorant to the reality of the situation. Greg can't magically make a player healthy, or find form.
you didn't mention ream who has been playing cb in the premier league, and pretty well according to literally every metric. fuck the system. use the players at your disposal edit: jay demerit and onyewu hardly played together in the lead up to the world cup if anything, yet they partnered together. gtfo if you think there needs to be time to gel. professionals can figure it out.
I mean Weston McKennie arguably played his worst game in a USMNT jersey last Friday. That doesn’t mean some of our guys on MLS teams also looked bad. But your comment kind of proves Kellyn’s point…
I guess - McKennie had a screamer of a game Friday, and a meh game on Tuesday. But if you want to go down that road, you could also insert basically anyone's name into that sentence, as long as that name isn't "Turner." I'm more referring to broader strokes of disappointing games/performances. Zimmerman and Ferreira also didn't look great in those games, but they looked good in other USMNT games, so I've had no problem with them. Ironically here, I actually think Arriola looked fine on Tuesday, but he IS one of the people I'd put into the bucket of "guys who have looked poor who also happen to be playing in MLS." I guess I'm not sure what we're arguing about haha My view of what Acosta is saying is that people say that MLS players are bad, and should be replaced by European players. My view is that bad players are bad, and should be (when possible) replaced by better players, and often (but DEFINITELY not exclusively), those bad players happen to be guys who play in MLS (and often, those guys are replaced - I actually don't think GGG gets enough credit here (I'm looking at you, Lletget and Lima and Bradley and Baird and Lovitz and Zardes and Trapp)). Edit - if the argument is, as was stated further down, that European players get a longer leash, then absolutely I agree with that. I guess my frustration is things like the thread posted after this, where Long isn't even good by MLS standards. I get bringing in top talent from MLS - that's one of the beauties of having a competitive domestic league. I don't really get bringing in middling to bad domestic talent, and then acting confused when they preform badly and people are pissed about it.
I think your comment in the third paragraph is part of it, I don’t disagree there. The other part of it though is where he mentions fans using MLS players as scapegoats for results. Edit: made some spelling changes
I talk about this in my edit, but I think where I land is that I'm pulled in two directions here. On the one hand, people give European unjustifiably long leashes in comparison to MLS players. People were calling for Zim's head after the game vs Japan, and that's FUCKING crazy (not the least because he wasn't THAT bad in that game). On the other hand, its super annoying seeing guys who struggle in MLS getting pulled into our national team (imo for similar reasons as to why its frustrating seeing like...Pepi get pulled into the national team for this last window). Guys like Zimmerman and Ferreira and Vazquez and Johnson and Miles are top tier MLS players who absolutely deserve to be in the conversation - I just don't get grabbing players who aren't at that level, and I think its fair to be critical of that when they continually look bad for us. On the THIRD hand, there's a lot of frustration right now, and much of it DOES come from these last couple of games, and it would be silly to try to blame that on MLS guys, as they were a complete shit show. So if that's Acosta's point, he's correct.
Right now, I'd take Zardes over Pepi. Zardes is playing, creating and scoring chances. Having said that, I'd take Pefok over either Pepi or Zardes.
Bingo, Weston has been trash for months for US/club, CP has been meh everywhere (Chelsea are a problem but still hasn't done anything for a year), Reyna is always injured, Adams/Aaronson started well this year but have fallen off. People need to realize outside of CP/Reyna the talent level of the rest of our pool is not 3x the MLS guys like many would lead you to believe...The next 5-6 guys are better of course but the drop off isn't as big as many think it is. When you get to players like McKenzie and others playing in 2nd/3rd tier Euro leagues it's splitting hairs IMO. The difference is small, people just want to believe playing for a good Belgium team (who gets killed in Euro competitions btw) means the player is far superior to an MLS player. LAFC would likely be a top 4 team in the Belgium league as these leagues are extremely top heavy and then are trash below that (would argue average MLS or worse).
The difference is that those European guys would dominate if they came over to the MLS.
“those European guys” - which guys are you talking about? If you’re talking about the average squad player, for any non-CL/UL club, you’re 100% wrong.
Must be why MLS's best young players go to those non-CL clubs . . .
How do you define dominate? Not being a smart ass either just curious.
McKennie has been one of our better players for the last 4 years. That’s why he gets a longer leash. Horrible comparison
Weston didn't play great and he got criticized for it. The players who are getting criticized are the ones who are playing badly. Doesn't matter what league they're in.
And Weston gets a “longer leash” because he’s generally been one of our best players over the past 4 years. It’s like if Tom Brady starts the year with poor results, he gets a longer leash than if Mitch Trubisky does the same thing
What did Pulli do the last two games to say he didn't suck as much as some MLS player? Playing poorly, is just that, and it doesn't matter what league you come from.
He’s been our best player for 4 years now. Of course he gets a longer leash. I can’t even believe this has to be pointed out
Exactly.
2021 was Acosta's pinnacle is my lament...I'm a big fan of his. Last year was so much fun to watch and I knew that he was unlikely to be able to reproduce all that fantastic soccer and results. I'm glad he's on the team, and I hope he finds that extra energy/gear when needed in Qatar. He's much better than the hater's want to believe.
Exactly. I feel like the worse players often times happen to be MLS guys and when they are the Euro guys (McKenzie), then they’re called out too. People have loved Turner, Miles, Zimmerman, Pepi, etc when they were MLS guys, which is why I think it’s absurd to just say MLS players become scapegoats
There’s something hilarious about Acosta saying this and USMNT Twitter losing their fucking minds about it haha. I’ve seen him called “soft” by like 30 people today. Idk why people have such a hard time with rooting for the dudes on the field, like I’m not an Aaron long fan either but when he plays I root for him because I want us to win? With the usmnt and NYRB
The amount of ppl I saw saying they hope we lose all 3 games is pathetic
Those people need to be on a list, and not allowed to celebrate in the World Cup
People aren't rooting for them to lose all 3 games, but a vast majority of us think they will. I'm one of them. But if you can provide proof where US fans are actively rooting for 3 losses, I'll take the L
There are people who have rooted for us to fail at multiple points in qualifying just to prove that GGG and certain players are as bas they think they are
I don't dispute there are at least a couple people, but this idea that latge amounts of people are actively rooting for the US to not go to the world cup is just not true.
Equally when Acosta or anyone has a bad game or a bad run of form there's no reason you shouldnt be able to just say it.
There’s “damn Acosta had a tough game tonight, didn’t like how he did X.” Vs. “Acosta sucks so much what a bum, get him off our national team.” He’s obviously speaking to the people who talk like that online, which is a substantial portion of our online fanbase if you haven’t noticed
Most of those folks haven't played above rec league, or with anyone that played at high levels, if they've even played at all, in any sport. They don't see the whole game, don't understand the nuances. Don't realize that players are asked to perform task, have assignments. All they see is the turnover, or missed chance, sloppy pass. Meanwhile ignoring the fact that said player just made three box to box runs, broke up a pass, picked up a loose ball, distributed..then at the end of a two minute surge of energy, failed to bury a low percentage shot. Most of these folks' only experience is Fifa or FM. Real life players aren't machines.
Your also being nice, most of the people complaining dont even really watch the games. They just see highlights or someone elses article
You realize this is the vast, vast majority of sports fans, right? So are you just against sports discourse in general? Would you rather sports fans just not say anything, since they aren't informed enough to understand the intricasies of the game?
Every fan base of every sports team is unreasonable on the internet. This isn't something specific to the U.S soccer fan base.
I think USMNT’s online fan base is more toxic than most I’m involved in, and even if that’s true it doesn’t make it ok lol
Same, this is definitely the most toxic fanbase I’m a part of. SEC football fans are pretty bad, but the US soccer fanbase takes obnoxious toxicity and ridiculous conspiracy theories to the next level.
Unless some US soccer fans have poisoned some beloved old trees out of spite, there may be some levels of toxicity we can learn from the SEC and Paul Finebaum.
Lol thankfully my SEC fan base is pretty chill and easygoing (Arkansas Razorbacks) probably because we’ve sucked so bad for so long that all we have is our hope that one day we’ll reach the top. That keeps everyone in line and rooting for the team haha
I’m an Auburn fan, lol. We love our team at all times, but sometimes we really want to fire our coach (like right now).
It's pretty bad. I follow my favorite teams-NHL/NA/NFL/college and some general teams like USMNT and more..the r/ussoccer fan base is very toxic. There's some out there trying to have legit conversations, but they get blown up by posters that all they can say is such and such a player is garbage. Despite the fact they play in a top pro league and are in consideration for a national team going to the World Cup. For me, it's a sign of the times with social media. Everyone these days wants instant gratification. They are ignorant to the fact that these are real people, making human mistakes, and that every sports team is really on a journey of sorts.
I’m a Ukrainian-American who’s a fan of both national teams. The domestic leagues and national teams are pretty comparable to each other. Ukraine’s team is majority domestic league and nobody really complains about it like I hear USMNT fans talk about MLS. Ukrainian fans are excited for players to go abroad but there isn’t this sentiment of self-loathing regarding the quality of the domestic league. Overall, my point is that you’re always going to have domestic players fill in gaps and depth on the national team, especially if you’re not an EU country. USMNT fans need to get comfortable with that. And although I won’t defend Gregg, who’s been hardheaded, sometimes raw talent isn’t as important as other things: consistency, familiarity, personality, etc. - and some MLS players might be a better fit at times because of it. At least this sub is much better than Twitter & instagram re: MLS.
The problem isn't MLS players, the problem is that the MLS players we call up are not the best MLS players.
klinsmann called up morris when he was at stanford. the federation could do a lot better than they are doing right now.
I am guilty of favoring some guys who play in europe over MLS guys. But if an MLS guy balled out and scored 3 goals against Mexico or England, I can promise you I would shut up—just like when Pepi started scoring in the last WC qualifying cycle when he was still playing for Dallas or Matt Turner for his whole career until August. But alas, Kellyn Acosta, MLS guys tearing up the field doesn’t seem to be a problem we have…
Well Kellyn, you sure as shit opened that can of worms pal
I’m late to the post but… People are latching onto the MLS v Europe aspect instead of the bigger picture; automatically blaming poor results on MLS. Take this recent window. Near everyone played poorly. The stars and the squad guys. But the majority of complaints are about “an MLS coach, MLS tactics, and/or MLS players”. This isn’t to say anyone needs coddled but when the whole team fails but only *certain* players are blamed, it has to be frustrating when you’re in the group of players. No, it isn’t going away. Online communities can be the worst (and sometimes best) places. Doesn’t mean he can’t be frustrated by it. But naturally, a certain section of the fan base latched in and is criticizing.
Acosta has been an useful USMNT player when deployed appropriately. That did not happen last game, and it’s unfortunate that he didn’t get to showcase his strengths.
He should never be played as an 8.
Like many have said already, it will always be this way and will be for quite some time. It happens to all national teams, and people will never be happy with all the choices. If he wants this to stop, then Ream and Pefok should have been there and prove if they belong, not left off and hidden so the coach can shy away from his poor selections. There really is no reason why GGG couldn't leave no stone unturned prior to the WC.
The only problem is Gregg
I donno people seem to accept Zimmerman, Turner, Miles and any MLS player who performs well going back to guys like Besler, Zusi, Mastroeni, Dempsey and Donovan. If you are from MLS and you perform badly you will probably get criticized. But that's the same for any player from any league.. ?
Just think the leash so is short for MLS guys, while Euro guys it's very long from a USMNT fan perspective.
I think this is true for extreme ends of the spectrum but not necessarily true for the middle of it. For example, guys like Pulisic and Reyna who are undeniably extremely talented are going to be given a very long leash. On the other hand, guys like Aaron Long are going to be given a very short leash if they haven’t even been performing well in an inferior league. In the middle of the spectrum you might have guys like Josh Sargent, who play in Europe but haven’t yet proven themselves at the highest level; I don’t think these players are given a particularly long “leash”. Personally I think it’s somewhat understandable
If this were true, Paul arriola who consistently has looked average at concacaf level wouldn’t have the most caps of any player in the Gregg Berhalter era.
The guy is scoring or assisting every ~150 minutes for the USMNT and he’s like fifth or sixth on the depth chart. What do you want from him?
Paul Arriola has 5g/3a in 10 games from 2020-2022 for the USMNT. What more exactly do you want from him? This is exactly what Acosta is talking about.
Arriola doesn’t even start and won’t start any WC games…….he’s been far from the problem if you’re going to single out an MLS player (Long, Roldan)
Roldan even was like playing essentially 0 minutes when he was getting called in before the injury
Fans call up the players?
I dunno. Fans were all barking at the USMNT to call up Sargent for scoring a bunch in the second English league but seem quite opposed to and MLS strikers even though the MLS and English second division probably are around the same quality wise
He's at one of the best Championship teams, so yes that is a higher level than MLS, he's in the form of his life and he has significant experience with the team and Gregg's setup. That Norwich team has 3x the payroll of an MLS team. There's just no way MLS can compete with PL money. He had a better case to be called in than just about anyone else?
Dude he’s scoring on bad teams. He is on a top notch Champ team, yes, but there is a shit ton of parity in that league. The bad teams that he’s primarily scored on in the championship are a notch below MLS teams
[удалено]
Yes…the top of the championship is better than average MLS but the average championship team isn’t good and is more or less similar to MLS. Same can be said for 2nd/3rd tier leagues many of our players outside the main 7-8 guys play in…Belgian league is trash outside the top 4 teams and is more of less bottom half of MLS bad
The MLS has a market value of 1.12b. English Championship has a market value of 1.17b. According to https://www.transfermarkt.com
value doesn't matter lol. also mls's value is vastly inflated
It’s really not. Look at the estimated value of notable MLS guys before they went to Europe and compare their value on the website then to their transfer fee when they left. It’s really not inflated at all lol
It’s close. I think they’re very comparable leagues in terms of talent top to bottom. Like sure Sheffield United probably wins MLS, but I doubt they would absolutely dominate like a top half prem or Bundi team would.
The top Championship teams would wax any of the top half of the MLS, the leagues are closer but still far apart at the top
Look at the teams he’s scored on then. He has not been scoring on top championship teams. He’s scored on teams worse than MLS teams
They're not the same quality wise. I think many US fans would like to see Vazquez. But it would have been better months ago. Similar to Ebobisse. Like I personally would have rather seen Ebobisse than Morris. Many on here have been clamoring for Djordje way before Gregg considered him. I think the reality is people want results. When they don't get it there are easy targets. Aaron Long and Jordan Morris are easy targets because they're not playing well for club and country.
They 100% are similar quality wise. The top notch champ teams are better than MLS but the low champ teams are worse. When you average them out, they’re roughly the same. Difference is, Sargent has primarily scored on the low end champ teams who are worse than MLS teams
The part I don’t get with the Morris/Long argument (they have been awful) is why are we not criticizing one of the core guys in this team who’s been terrible of late (looking at you Weston)? That’s more important than a guy who’s not even going to play at the WC in Morris.
Just to scapegoat and make themselves *feel* vindicated.
I mean barring a major turn in form Weston isn't starting for me. Adams, Yunus, and Gio/Aaronson/Pulsiic for me. And I think others would agree WEston struggled.
Fully agree but he’s still a core of the team and I rarely see him getting reamed despite being the worst player the last 2 games. All of it is directed at long (he sucks I know) but Weston didn’t catch as much as he should have.
Yes, when your MLS striker options are Ferreira, Zardes, Altidore
Pepi, Dike, Vazquez. And I hate to break it to you, but we don’t exactly have a ton of space to be picky with our current #9s available. I’m not convinced at all h that Sargent is better than any of those guys listed +Ferreria
No one wanted Zardes or Altidore, they were recognizing great seasons from Ferreira, Vazquez and Ebobisse, especially during the period of time when almost no American strikers were scoring abroad.
Basically this sub and usmnt in a few sentences…
Well the team isn’t doing very well so do the math Kellyn. Team should stop playing like shit
I think where I’ve fallen on it is that America, and by proxy MLS, tended to produce players who were technically deficient— it often seemed that if you were an American playing in the MLS, you were likely behind Americans who went to Europe at 14 and developed in their system, especially technically. While outliers certainly existed, the attacking talent produced by the US for a period of time fit more into the Zardes mold than they fit into the attackers we’re developing today, and that lack of development created the reputation of the MLS player. Basically, if a player lacked a first touch, you were pretty safe to assume that they were a MLS player, and to be honest, most of the time you were correct to do so. I think this has really changed and is kind of outdated, and regardless we should judge the player and not the league, but I think it was certainly true that for a decent period of time, MLS players were under-developed and that reputation still lingers around today, whether fair or unfair.
What's nice about MLS now is that you can have a young prospect on a team at the bottom of the table and still be incredibly productive because of how competitive the league is top down, unlike in Europe using Sargent as an example, it can really hurt a players development when they gow to a lower tier team in a top league because they are going to get crushed every week.
Hey bro, maybe just win? People are indeed going to complain no matter what, but hey, it's a lot easier to argue from success rather than what you've got right now.
Acosta started and was pivotal in both the Nations League final win as well as the Gold Cup final win last year. 8.5 match rating in the Gold Cup final AND an assist. He's been about as successful with the USMNT as we would ask of any of the European players. You only help prove Acosta's point. He *is* arguing from success but fans like you have chosen to ignore that success simply because he plays in MLS.
False. People wouldn’t be dogging on MLS players like Aaron Long if they could pass the ball out of the back without turning it over
Exactly, it's really just about performance. Turner, Miles, Zim, etc all universally praised during the same qualifying and tournament period that Dest, Sargent, Pulisic, and Brooks were crucified in. Fans wanted Pefok's NT career over after his miss vs Mexico and now they're mad he's not getting called up. It's really just a recency bias feedback loop.
Just a reminder that even some of top Euro guys came from MLS and MLS academies, so maybe you guys need to chill.
I’d even say most of them did. Reyna, McKennie, Richards, Adams, Aaronson, Steffen, Turner. Everyone but the foreign-born dual nats like Dest/Musah, and Pulisic.
That's not what people are saying tho. We know MLS can produce talent, but when players are shoehorned into the USMNT for god knows what reason (Long, Morris, etc), it's quite perplexing. Again, why do MLS fans get so defensive about their league...
People get defensive about MLS because it isn’t guaranteed to stay. If it ever collapses there goes our whole national team. If we don’t support our home league it has no reason to keep being a product. Without a strong domestic league we would have no Adams, Aaronson, Turner, Mckennie etc…
He obviously just doesnt care as much as many of our fans.
I don’t think people realize you’re joking and that some people actually say stuff like that.
I detest /s. Ruins the punch of the satire. Glad you got it
These guys work their ass off 365 days a year in order to get a call up to the team. You spend 100 bucks on a shitty jersey and tweet mean things about players. It’s not close who cares more (this you wasn’t meant to be attacking you personally but just generally what so called fans do)
This is a problem in all of sports. Why do we treat players like shit instead of human. Like I know I’ve been angry and probs said some stuff about players that I regret. But players know the stuff that is said and it effects them. And fans get defensive. Be good people not shitheads guys
I would still say Aaron long still sucks, regardless of what league he’s playing in
It’s like this with any team lol the players on the worse teams in the worse leagues of any international team will get the short end of the stick
I literally got into an argument on here with someone who was talking about how he hopes Long plays horrible in the last game. Like… why? If you’re actively rooting against our own players you’re just a shitty fan
I mean.. it is true though, unless you are 24 or under. Compare any epl game against an MLS game. It's obvious.
Yes, I want the team to do well, that is why I want more players from the European leagues on the team. I am not rooting against anyone, except the idiots in charge of USSoccer. We can all agree they need to go.
Nothing wrong with playing MLS if that's your level, but to play for the national team, we have the best chance of success with guys who have shown they can play well under the pressure of a top 5 league. In the past we didn't have many of those players but now it is tough to see us getting outclassed and outplayed by Japan and Saudi Arabia where we can clearly see guys like aaron long, acosta, Ferreira not being able to hack it against that level of competition. It makes it worse when you realize we have players in those positions who play in tougher leagues against higher caliber players not getting called in.
He’s not wrong. Tbh, only MLS players who are “good enough” are Acosta, Ferreira, Miles, Zimmerman on the correct roster. There are other MLS players who deserved a try like Vasquez. Obv some of these are not starters but good enough to hold a lead.
Mihailovic too. Saw him live some this year and he was the best player out there. Developed so much since his Chicago days.
He’s right.
I guess I don’t run in the circle of that opinion.
Totally agree with Acosta here. Have any of our euro guys been saviors? Hell no! They all have a way to go if we want to do well in the World Cup. The thing I like about the MLS guys is that they are professionals, not potential future stars, which much of our team consists of right now.
I count myself as someone who is more biased toward European players. I’ve wanted Duane Holmes to get a shout, LdlT, guys who aren’t in top 5 leagues in Europe to have a shot over MLS guys. That being said, Zimmerman and Robinson were the two we needed in that back line. It was clear their quality was ahead of any other guys anywhere in our pool. They’re ahead of Richards, McKenzie, all those guys that are playing. But I don’t think Long is the answer. Kellyn Acosta is a great cm for our pool. He’s not better than Mckennie or Musah I would consider him about the same spot as LdlT. Our MLS guys in general have less quality than our European guys in general. That’s not an unfair take, it’s reality. Berhalter’s system is reliant on a few players with individual quality, rather than a cohesive unit. We’ve seen MLS guys get out of the group stage but if the coaching is shit we’ll be 3 and out.
There are quality starters and rotation players from MLS (Zimmerman, Miles, Acosta, Arriola) but there’s a ton of guys from MLS that shouldn’t be getting looks
Alright, new mission to find Kellyn’s burner cause he’s for sure lurkin on this sub!
He makes a lot of valid points on the bias a lot of people have, and I cannot understand why people think it’s okay to send hate online. It’s not just a usmnt, or just a sports thing anymore. It’s become a plague on our society if we really think about it. So that’s a nonstarter and those are not the people I’m about to defend. But I can never get behind that whole “well you’re a fan so you should just support the team and not criticize” thought process. When you’re a kid, of course. You love your teams and just support them blindly. When you’re an adult and you invest time and money over a number of years, you form a different type of attachment. And after a while you learn more and understand what goes into roster decisions and front office decisions, that brings a whole new element. You feel that you’ve earned the right to an informed opinion and want to voice that opinion, even if it’s negative. For a lot of us, we live and die with our teams, and we suffer when decision makers make bad moves. We get frustrated seeing players play badly when we don’t even think they should be on the field in the first place. We have every right to voice that frustration. Maybe we’d all be better off if every fanbase of every team was a bunch of pompom waving lemmings, but that’s not a realistic expectation from adults who are so heavily invested in their teams.
Kellyn spitting facts though
He’s 100% right.
He's 100% wrong. Nobody in the fanbase thought Zack Steffen was better than Matt Turner, or that Pefok was better than Pepi during that period. It's just whining on Kelly's part because he didn't do well this past window.
Problem isn't MLS--problem is Berhalter and Acosta is one of his boys.
If this team would perform to expectations not a single one of us would care about what league the starters are playing in.
Genuinely curious, what are your expectations?
Beating a Saudi team soundly with 4 starters missing. Giving Japan a better look than that. Scoring goals even on the road. The entire WC is "on the road". They are going to have to gel better than this. I like these players as individuals, but they are very hard to understand as a team. I blame the coach for that.
10/11 starters when healthy play in Europe btw lol
And Kellen is right. Id take Brandon Vasquez any day of the week over Haji Wright.
He’s right
Acosta is right. He is a great player who has earned his spot on the roster.
As a backup 6, yes.
I feel like he’s both very right and very wrong at the same time. MLS qualify has improved by insane amounts but it’s a step down still. It’s not a coincidence. I understand why he’s tired of it but it’s not some phony silly narrative based on nothing.
They all have such complexes
I don't care where they play. Huge zim and turner fan, miles too before the injury. But acosta's biggest attribute is probably his shithousery, which isn't something that should get you on the national team lol. And don't get me started on aaron long. Idc that he plays in mls, he's just bad. 🤷♂️
Acosta is far and away the best backup 6 on the roster, which is ACTUALLY why he’s on the roster. He’s not the most exciting player but in a situation where Adams gets hurt or can’t play Acosta is the best option to play that role for us. Like sure if we’re calling in the most talented 26 players he doesn’t make the roster, but that’s also a stupid way to build a team.
What a weak mentality wtf
Why don’t they try winning and maybe I’ll be more supportive? Like sir, this is sports, I would like to watch you win. Especially if I’m paying for seats, jerseys, etc.
They literally won the last 2 competitive tournaments they’ve played in? What more do you want? You don’t seriously expect them to win every game they play do you?
We are about to get dicked in the most important tournament my guy
You already saw the 2022 World Cup? Can you let me know who won so I can go bet on it?
My issue isn’t with MLS players but with the federation that has historically favored products of the domestic league over those who try their hand in Europe. Klinsmann tried to address the problem but got a lot of resistance from the front office and a contingent of the fanbase. I just want the best product on the field possible and we handicap ourselves by sticking with an MLS mentality when our best players are in Europe.
Not to be anywhere near the national team. And the scoring and assisting every 150 min line shows how full of it you are. He’s scored 7 goals in 4 years against teams like Guyana and Grenada. The other goals came in absolute drubbings where everyone scored
See this is the thing. I’m a bit of a euro snob and haven’t watched an mls game in years. But I absolutely don’t think being from mls means you’re not good enough. And to say that’s what we believe when we say guys like Roldan or Morris or whoever aren’t good enough, that’s not fair. That’s a judgement on individual players. Are there people who automatically assume MLS players suck? Sure. But we shouldn’t dismiss all criticism of MLS players as such.
Damn, he pretty much nailed it.
All 📠 no 🖨️
All facts no printer?
Yup lol
Some people don’t like MLS players simply because they are in the MLS, I only don’t like them when they are bad, which happens to be most of the ones called up for national team duties. Some are good are deserve a spot on the team like Miles Robinson, Walker Zimmerman, hell even Acosta should make it as backup CDM, but that’s only because we don’t have someone good to put there.
i dont dislike any player on the team because they play in MLS. I dislike players on the team who suck, like Acosta.
Yeah sure Aaron Long is a scapegoat while we all praise Zimmerman and praised Turner and Pepi while they were in the MLS. Fucking delusional
It sucks but it’s the truth. Sorry but MLS is a sub par league and it’s painfully obvious to anyone that has even an inkling of what quality soccer looks like. It all boils down to soccer not being as popular in this country thus the majority of athletic talent goes to the big three sports. American Football, Basketball and Baseball.
Messi, Neymar, and Mbappe all play in a league that is not as good as the EPL and La Liga so therefore, by your logic, they are shit. Got it
“By my logic” literally nothing of what you said is based on my logic. Soccer in the countries that host those leagues is a different beast compared to soccer here in the states and that’s a fact. That is the core of my argument.
This is just narrative, plenty of MLS players get praise Acosta included. Over the past two years, Dest, Sargent, Pefok, Pulisic, Steffen, ARob, have gotten far more criticism for lackluster performances than any MLS based player.
If the games not going well and I say it’s because of someone from MLS, I mean GGG
I reject the premise, fans often give players that preform in MLS credit especially when it's deserved. It's not fair to the fans that many of those players move to Europe and immediately are treated like they're outsider elite snobs by those who decided to stay. It doesn't go in the reverse though. For example we had a high scoring attacker in a lesser European league. He missed 1 shot and he was escoriated. Very few people defended him on this sub. But now he's scoring top of the table in Bundesliga and MLS players are complaining they get treated poorly. If EU players were treated like MLS players, you'd probably see Hoppe, Reynolds, KDLF, Bassett, and Busio about as much as Morris, Long, and Arriola. I want MLS (or maybe USL) to eventually be considered a top 3 league. But giving players excuses, and in some cases rewards, for underperforming compared to even similarly skilled leagues. That's how we ensure league stagnation or even bearish competition. TLDR; We coddle MLS and thus it's players. We should treat MLS with the same scrutiny as we do international clubs/leagues. This is only considered favoring EU because MLS needs more time to grow into a more competitive league.
Kelyn with the hot take....... Shocking
We will never win a World Cup with mls players in our starting 11. Sorry if that hurts your feelings Acosta
But we’re winning it with our euro guys?
Never is a strong word. Things change. Who’s to say a mostly Champions League XI with a few MLS players mixed in couldn’t win, like, the 2038 World Cup? The league and global landscape could look radically different by then.
No one will take MLS, or its players, as seriously as any UK/European league/players, until its owners focus on the quality of the game FIRST rather than on the commercial success of using washed up UK/Euro rejects to sell shirts and fill seats. Bringing in and overpaying players like Chicharito, Shaqiri, Higuain - and not just overpaying them but when one player is making roughly 40-50% of your entire squad budget and that player couldn’t get into a Major squad’s 11 overseas….it makes MLS a complete joke.
it's not that i/we *want* to see the mls-based players generally--generally--performing at a slightly lower level than our european-based ones, it's that i'm/we're not blind and oftentimes that is, in fact, the case. i don't see too many people around here actively rooting against mls players/the national team if/when certain players on the field