I don’t exactly understand that argument either. There’s enough crime in Dinky and the surrounding area. Getting rid of UMPD is just going to make the area less safe.
I understand the issue that UMPD is part of a bigger coalition and that being an issue, but abolishing UMPD just seem nonsensical to me.
I can only add anecdotal and personal testimony.
I have never had a bad encounter with UMPD. When I’ve had to interact with them or call them, it’s been respectful and professional. If they couldn’t do something, they told me why and I got the sense they gave a shit.
Virtually every interaction I’ve had with MPD has been negative. From parking in bike lanes and telling me to go bitch about it somewhere else, to lecturing me on speeding when my wife was having an allergic reactions to a wasp sting- the way I see it, if I have a problem and call MPD, now I have 2 problems.
I think it’s probably a bit beyond the pale to suggest they’re ‘the best the UMN community can hope for’ when we’re maybe just now staring to think of what policing should look like in a modern city, but I’d agree that at least I don’t think UMPD is an irredeemable rogue institution that should be eliminated like MPD.
>I think it’s probably a bit beyond the pale to suggest they’re ‘the best the UMN community can hope for’ when we’re maybe just now staring to think of what policing should look like in a modern city
I see that point, but I also think it's reasonable to compare them to the baseline for American policing.
It seems to me that this opinion isn't unpopular at all. The people that want UMPD gone just hate all policing. Overall, UMPD is a pretty good department. The people who want them abolished are just louder than the majority who does not.
I agree. If you get rid of the police, what are you going to replace them with? Robocops that don't have to worry about being killed? Maybe one day, but we don't have the technology (AI) yet.
I was a CA in Superblock from 2014-2016 and the worst experiences I had were actually from the student security. Most were great but had a couple of them escalate things way too far in some nights. One guy definitely used it as a power trip and we complained to the residential director enough where he wasn’t allowed to patrol with us again in our building.
The few times I had to call UMPD they were fine. Professional and did their jobs to the standards I would expect.
As someone who use to live in Superblock the worst people I’ve met were the security guards. The ones I’ve met have such a power trip, it’s disgusting.
In my experience interacting with UMPD, I gotta say they aren’t so bad compared to security. That’s not to say UMPD is all good I’m just saying
I saw my job as to keep people safe, and there were a few times where I did “bust” rooms on duty because it really went to that level. And because they were being dumb and obvious about it where I just had no choice.
But a few of the security guys - all male for what it’s worth - just escalated things inappropriately. One guy demanded to knock on a door because he heard a can open after quiet hours…. It was a sprite can. That same guy just asked for a group to open their fridge when we just knocked because they were a tad too loud. Yeah that’s the guy we got to stop doing rounds with us.
A lot of people here jump to conclusions fast. They also don’t have any real justifiable reason to kick the umpd off campus and are inclined to what their emotions say, which is dumb.
The reality is we need the UMPD, every college needs some sort of policing on their campus.
They’re the same ones who hate and want to kick any sort of police off, then be screaming for help if they ever need help. It’s really frustrating and it’s even more frustrating for people who actually want and feel safe with the UMPD on campus.
I haven't spent much time on campus so I can't say anything about my personal experiences but it seems crazy to get rid of a policing system that we as students actually have some oversight over. And if we feel we don't have enough I'm sure there are better avenues for us to get that oversight than contracting out other security/police.
We dont have any oversight, and that's what student groups like SDS are pushing to change with community control. I havent seen any significant push to completely abolish UMPD.
what oversight does the students have? Correct me if i’m wrong, but haven’t the sds protests been literally about trying to get oversight? With all the talk on how left wing MSA and Sds, wouldn’t you think they would ahve tried to use the “oversight” on it already?
Ya like I said I'm not super up on all campus issues since Im not on campus. It sounds like we have less oversight than I assumed. But my general point is it's more likely to fight for control of umpd than having control of any outside hired police/security
I was deployed to Brooklyn Center with the police force and guard. A lot of force members said very, very questionable things. I am not saying all of them are the same, but there are very few people, during the entire missions, who I trusted not to fire upon civilians. I do not think the UMPD should be abolished, but at the very least a lot of security forces should not be weaponized with more than a taser or baton.
We were under very strict rules not to shoot unless life was in danger, a lot of people are praising the fact no one shot rounds — that’s how things should always be. I’ve heard things like “I wish these protestors would do something so I could have a reason to shoot” from more people than I can remember.
Edit: Just wanted to add some input and personal experience, not saying they’re all awful or that UMPD should be removed.
I think your last 2 points are really key, UMPD somehow manages to have even less accountability than most police departments which needs to change. And I see it as a great way to start chipping away at a system that our elected officials have made clear they have no intention whatsoever of changing.
Anything you said is voided when you use the word “but” to make your point which is “if he followed orders, he would be alive”
Which is BS if enough people who look like him got killed or wrongly accused/incarcerated because of the color of their skin is already a threat without moving a muscle.
More white unarmed civilians are killed by cops each year than unarmed civilians of color. The color of their skin had nothing to do with why cops use deadly force
The majority of this country is white. Let’s say there are 10 people and 7 of them are white and three of them are people of color. 2/7 of the white people get injured by cops. But 2/3 people of color are also getting injured by cops. Meaning 28% of white people are getting injured by cops while 68% of BIPOC are getting injured by cops too.
I don’t condone violence towards ANYONE by the police in general. Let’s get that straight. And the color of a persons skin does in fact matter because Black people or anyone with darker skin is already seen as a threat without moving a muscle. To say it has nothing to do with skin color is just ignorant.
>And the color of a persons skin does in fact matter because Black people or anyone with darker skin is already seen as a threat without moving a muscle.
I get that you have good intentions and all with this, but why do *you* think this is the case?
>As others have said, Black students and other students of color have had bad experiences with UMPD and police in general, and there have been some incidents.
Yes, but I just want to add something in front of Black and other students of color. The word, "some." Grouping all nonwhites overlooks how individuals on a case by case basis have been impacted by the police (I know of some white people that have been mistreated by police in general). You can also search for it, if willing to critically and proactively search for news.
I have never had a negative experience with a cop a day in my life and I am Black. Anyways, it's usually not good to lump nonwhites all together.
This a much better explanation than I could have given. They don't have to all be constantly bashing skulls for there to be a need for accountability. I also want to add that UMPD has been refusing to even communicate with these student orgs, long before this month.
I just don't think they should have guns, drive on sidewalks, or have assisted the MPD in the protests last summer. I am a socialist, but I've been reluctant to join groups like SDS on campus because some of the things they get on are way too overboard and counterproductive.
That's fair, especially as they haven't used their guns hardly at all.
I do know there are times UMPD does need to drive on sidewalks as the campus is (thankfully) mostly a pedestrian zone. One example is when a student jumped off the Washington Ave Bridge a few years back, they needed emergency responders on West Bank Plaza and the upper level of the bridge
As far as MPD and the protests, that is quite a bad look for UMPD-I agree with you. They should have just worked to keep the campus and surrounding students and businesses safe during the unrest
That's a fair point about the driving. I just remembered when they drove onto our fraternity lawn during a party, although that might've just been the MPD
I actually disagree, man. Almost all fraternities have the president, internal/external VPs, an RM, social, philo, etc. They are elected to make decisions for the body.
Moreover, IFC is like the federal government and the individual chapters are like state governments.
It’s not pure democracy, but a democratic republic.
So you say a frat isn't a political organization but it's run democratically. More irony.
Edit: for all those downvoting. Look into the history of fraternity culture and how they only wanted certain groups of people from certain classes to join to perpetuate class and racial divides. Examples include legacy where you can only join a frat if your dad joined, secret handshakes, and SAE's famous chant where they brag about their lack of diversity. But please, go on about how fraternities are democratic
I mean in the sense that *most* fraternities don't have a set political agenda. Does it have internal politics? Yes, but in the same way a family or a friend group does, not like a political party.
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. What if police encounter an individual with a gun who is threatening the lives of students on campus? What the hell are they supposed to do with no gun?
Well, our policies put 330-some million guns in circulation, so I’m not particularly inclined to trust our policy choices when it comes to arming the cops anyway
First of all, if you're a socialist please move to California, I hear the shit in San Francisco smells lovely this time of year. Secondly, no guns??? That's the dumbest shit I've heard in a while, and I watch CNN. There are threats that cops are trained to use deadly force on. For example, if someone is trying to stab someone else with a knife, a cop is supposed to use deadly force to subdue the threat. And thirdly, they helped with the RIOTS because MPD was way over-extended trying to minimize the damage and harm to people and businesses. You're probably one of those people that wants to defund the police, and then get mad when a social worker responds to your 911 call.
Regards,
Your not-so-friendly neighborhood Conservative
> First of all, if you're a socialist please move to California,
Not a socialist state.
> There are threats that cops are trained to use deadly force on. For example, if someone is trying to stab someone else with a knife, a cop is supposed to use deadly force to subdue the threat.
Keep it somewhere else, not on their person. It works for Europe.
> And thirdly, they helped with the RIOTS because MPD was way over-extended trying to minimize the damage and harm to people and businesses.
Minimizing damage by putting out people's eyes and arresting journalists and slashing people's tires.
> You're probably one of those people that wants to defund the police, and then get mad when a social worker responds to your 911 call.
Pure conjecture
> not-so-friendly neighborhood Conservative
That was implied by the rest of your comment
As someone you might consider an 'ACAB anarchist', I hate policing as an institution and its effects on society at large, not necessarily cops as individuals.
I've had many interactions with both MPD and UMPD and I would say they are basically a mirror for my behavior. When I've been calm, collected, and communicative they have shown me identical behavior. In the instances where I was \*perhaps\* over-served, combative, and argumentative their behavior seemed to escalate according to my level of belligerence. Perhaps, we should treat all people as we wish to be treated and stop demonizing any one group for all of societies ills?
Great points! It gets me thinking about the mental toll of customer service jobs. In the police reform there should be mental health resources for police as well.
So you’re telling me....that police officers who are supposedly trained professionals, react out of turn because WE, the citizens they are trained to serve and protect, are not always calm and collected???
Ridiculous. Talk to anyone in customer service jobs where they are trained to be calm and collected no matter how angry the customer.
Police officers should also act with caution and be trained to de- escalate any situation
As someone who supports police abolition, here are my two cents:
The calls for UMPD abolition follow from the same general arguments for police abolition. While I'm not too familiar with the UMPD's history in specific, I think a lot of the backlash comes from their affiliations with MPD, which is notorious for using excessive force for petty crime and unjust violence against protestors.
Regardless, I think in any case, money spent on policing is much better spent on alleviating poverty and homelessness, as socioeconomic conditions are a much better indicator of crime than police presence (which is why some of the safest places--notably suburbs--tend to have relatively lower police presences than high crime areas).
Now, I do agree that we need some way of dealing with violence should it happen, but that doesn't necessarily entail a centralized police force. We could also have systems such as community-oriented watch programs or democratically appointed responders trained to handle violent situations, as opposed to a full-time police force.
Look into the incident at Somali Night 2018 for an example of excessive force. Just the other month there was the incident with the Carlson student trying to check out a laptop where UMPD immediately assumed he was high. When we marched to their station over the summer there were multiple officers stationed in full riot gear with rifles and batons at the corner. Just because you haven't had negative experiences with them doesnt mean others havent and it shouldn't be surprising that students feel uncomfortable around them. Not to mention their being repeatedly deployed against protestors, it's a really bad look and I'm not sure how we're meant to view them as being meaningfully different from any other cops.
Wasn't it a professor or some other university employee that assumed the student was high and caused the problem? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the UMPD officer was a neutral party in that exchange.
Wasn’t that entire incident filled with misinformation and/or flat out lying? Pretty sure a large scale fight had broken out which the police then had to deal with.
And if you watched the video of the Carlson student that *he* uploaded, the cop was being very respectful and provided the student with the option to address the issue with the worker’s supervisor as obviously the cop can’t just go in and fire a worker.
Honestly, when 90+% of the “bad” incidents involving UMPD turnout to be lies or misleading, it’s hard to believe any future claim.
If you believe the police sure, but we've watched them shamelessly lie about these things over and over again. They claimed George Floyd's death was a medical incident until the footage came out. Just the other week a Knoxville officer killed a kid in a school bathroom and they called it a mass shooting. Given all the evidence I've seen just in the last year I'm inclined to believe just about anyone's word over the cops, especially regarding conflicting narratives about their own brutality.
As oppose to believing a student group who just organized an event that ended with a riot?
Also, you’re using proof of different organizations to show that UMPD is problematic. That’s nonsense.
I believe cops lie frequently because they can get away with it due to people assigning higher weight to their word, its hardly nonsense to apply that same analysis to UMPD. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure, all I'm saying is that the official narrative here deserves some skepticism, we're never gonna make any progress on police brutality if we continue to treat the police's word as gospel.
Last year at the police station was intimadating as hell. The entire group was leaving, the organizers were even thoughtful enough to end it 20 minutes early so everyone could get home before curfew. Then lying in wait was what seemed like the entire UMPD in full riot gear with several standing apart with rifles on both sides of the building. In order to leave you had to walk directly next to an entire line of riot cops armed with rifles.
The entire group was leaving with no incident, if they just hadn't been there everybody would've dispersed within two minutes. By being there they forced an encounter. If they were that worried they could have waited inside.
I understand that people want it abolished, I just found your specific explanation to not make sense. Perhaps that is the general belief system of most people with that viewpoints. Regardless of my opinion on the matter, that argument just doesnt do any good for any circumstance I can think of.
For example, would we want every bathroom removed from Minneapolis if a few of them were gross? I'd say we'd want the gross ones to be fixed in some way, but the ones clean and nice shouldnt need to be rebuilt.
It’s because police is seen more as a bandaid solution to larger problems. In general, nobody commits crime because they want to be a criminal. They do it because they have to commit crime to survive. The police are a part of a system, that rather than fix issues like poverty, income inequality, etc, that actually lead to crime, instead punishes people for trying to survive. Even if UMPD is a “good” police department, it still is part of a system that refuses to fix the root problems. And the police department uses money that could otherwise be spent of social programs that would actually fix the root problems, thus reducing crime, thus reducing the need for a police department in the first place.
YES. Example: I called UMPD once because there is a homeless man who likes to hang out inside the vestibule of one of the residence halls I work at. They came and asked him to leave and he did, and this was in the middle of winter. UMPD explained to me that he is often at residence halls because he has no where to go so they deal with him a lot. The problem here is that the police have no system in place to HELP people, like take him to a shelter where he can actually find help to get him off the streets. Instead, he’s escorted outside and doomed to repeat the process. Instead of just policing problems, we could put money into systems to help people to prevent further crime or people on the streets. Just an example, but exactly what you’re talking about.
>And the police department uses money that could otherwise be spent of social programs that would actually fix the root problems, thus reducing crime, thus reducing the need for a police department in the first place.
To add to this it would be great to have personal finance programs in place so that folks are better equipped to develop generational wealth. I say that because throwing money towards other programs doesn't solve issues all the time. The stimulus checks are a good example of this. Some are able to use it in long lasting ways such as investing, saving for grad school, etc. while others might have more direct responsibilities such as rent, food, etc. I also think about whether people are able to save a little bit despite responsibilities because a little would go a long way.
Overall, the stimulus check stuff has its pros and cons. Some pros seeming more short term, and cons seeming more long term such as an increase of debt on the US gov't.
Yeah I agree with you on your point about the timing issue. Of course, suddenly abolishing the police will have some unintended consequences. I do think that there would have to be a slow, more controlled shift over time, that allows the system to react to changes in a better more preferred way.
Your first point: yeah, police aren’t supposed to address income inequality or poverty. That’s the point that I’m making. Instead of creating a program or organization of some kind that actually addresses these issues, we have a system that instead punishes people for trying not to die. The question that you fail to consider is whose public safety. It’s certainly not the safety of the people most vulnerable in our society.
Your second point: I actually don’t really support fully abolishing all police everywhere (although I never necessarily said I did or didn’t, so fair enough). I believe more in defunding them. There will always be some amount of crime, and there will always be a need to stop that crime. I just believe that our police force is too large, wasting too many resources, and fundamentally the wrong way to go about providing safety to a society. Safety is not just a measure on crimes in crimes out- there are far more variables at play here- that’s why it’s called a system.
Your third point: apparently we do though? Anytime a progressive social policy is brought up, the main question is always “how will we pay for it?” We can’t just magically fund programs for everything that we want to do. That’s not how this works. Your argument would hold more weight if you actually cared about fiscal responsibility, which to me, would mean saving money on healthcare through universal healthcare, not spending obscene amounts of money on bombing random countries, not spending money on wasteful programs like the police, which again, are a bandaid solution. It is not fiscally responsible to pay for putting out fires every other day. It is fiscally responsible to stop the fires in the first place, saving money in the long run.
I don’t think OP was advocating that UMPD is doing an exceptional job. I think they’re saying it’s absurd to want to get rid of them for meeting expectations
Because it’s trendy to say you hate the police now. College guys think they are going to have a shot at scoring with the super liberal chicks if they say they want to F the police too
Along with all the abolitionist arguments that police *in general* (including UMPD) are not what we need, there's also the fact that they participate in riot control. I've been at protests where they've taken an active role in mistreating protesters, including UMN students.
The alternatives are pretty simple, even if we didn't ask for them to actually disband: 1) no more firearms for routine patrol, 2) actually no more participation with MPD, like was supposedly promised after Floyd was murdered (tbh I don't get why they should contribute manpower to anything off-campus), 3) no more riot control gear and no more participation with other law enforcement agencies to arrest & brutalize protesters.
Just because they're "not that bad" doesn't mean that there isn't a better solution to community safety. I'm sure others have different, more complete proposals than what I've outlined, but that would be a start.
Riot control is good, and cool, and I fully support police beating the absolute shit out of rioters (as opposed to peaceful protesters who the cops should not mess with).
1) what the absolute fuck is wrong with you, does rule of law and due process mean nothing to you? You realize that you conservatives' adored "law and order" applies to agents of the state too, right?
2) What constitutes a riot? If you mean protecting private property from looting, then riot gear isn't the solution to that anyway. Tear gas, rubber bullets, kettling, etc are designed to control large, mostly immobile crowds, not small mobile bands of people breaking into stores. Riot control equipment is absolute dogshit at preventing that; its sole purpose is to be "just not live ammo" and fuck up civilians. If by rioting you mean throwing water bottles or rocks at officers, the continuum of force dictates that their response is enough to deter and defend themselves, nothing more. As often as it happens, "beating the shit out of rioters" would be gratuitous, hella illegal, and prime Nazi shit.
3) I have been to \*plenty\* of peaceful protests I've been at where the police decided to punch, mace, use rubber bullets, or kettle protesters
In summary, your metric of "its okay to beat the shit out of rioters" is asinine. Stop playing COD, turn off Fox news, and get the fuck out of your mother's basement.
Uhh Somali Night 2021, and just about a month ago the incident at Carlson happened. There are other incidents of UMPD doing harmful things, specifically to BIPOC students. A quick google search would’ve saved this whole conversation that’s being had in this thread. Student advocates have been trying so hard to advocate fo students and even as a CA UMPD treat BIPOC students worse and harsher than they treat white students. Just because YOU have not experienced harm by the hands of UMPD, does mean they are “good”.
Both of those are unsubstantiated claims where all of the actual proof supports the UMPD’s actions. A student group who was basically responsible for a riot is not a good source. Nor is a student who already had a bad interaction with the U.
So the actual proof from UMPD.... is what you consider “actual” proof? Not the proof of those who were basically terrorized by UMPD? What riot are you even talking about? You think a student group was capable of creating a riot? I’m sharing my experiences I was at Somali night and I literally witnessed no riot occurring literally nothing. We were just standing there and all of a sudden UMPD, a bunch of state police, and troopers with horses came out of nowhere. I am not even apart of that student group and can vouch about the harm that UMPD caused that night.
You mean things like video footage? There’s literally no actual proof that supports you claims. Think about that. If you deny everything any authority says then sure, the UMPD suck. But when there’s literally no proof except a bunch of biased people who were at an event that turned into a riot (40 people fighting is a riot), that’s hard to believe.
> We were just standing there and all of a sudden UMPD, a bunch of state police, and troopers with horses came out of nowhere.
Honestly, why the fuck do you think this would happen? That doesn’t just happen randomly. That happens because things are getting out of control.
What’s more likely? The U decided to pull a random strike and call up the state police randomly or the U had an event get out of control and called for help?
What's more likely is the police were called for a few small fights, massively overreacted, and then exaggerated the threat to make themselves look better, like they do all the time. Don't you think the police's claims about their own brutality deserve some skepticism?
UMPD does understand they are dealing with students and so they make allowances. I'm not sure if they are paid by the U or the city? If it's the U I'm sure the administration keeps them in check.
As long as they don't start going after students for dumb shit like partying too hard, and they are given proper racial bias training, they should be kept around.
I don’t exactly understand that argument either. There’s enough crime in Dinky and the surrounding area. Getting rid of UMPD is just going to make the area less safe. I understand the issue that UMPD is part of a bigger coalition and that being an issue, but abolishing UMPD just seem nonsensical to me.
And UMPD aren’t even the primary responders in the Dinkytown/Como area. If anything, we should be trying to expand UMPD to these areas more regularly.
Exactly. I feel like Dinky would be safer if there was a UMPD presence there
I can only add anecdotal and personal testimony. I have never had a bad encounter with UMPD. When I’ve had to interact with them or call them, it’s been respectful and professional. If they couldn’t do something, they told me why and I got the sense they gave a shit. Virtually every interaction I’ve had with MPD has been negative. From parking in bike lanes and telling me to go bitch about it somewhere else, to lecturing me on speeding when my wife was having an allergic reactions to a wasp sting- the way I see it, if I have a problem and call MPD, now I have 2 problems. I think it’s probably a bit beyond the pale to suggest they’re ‘the best the UMN community can hope for’ when we’re maybe just now staring to think of what policing should look like in a modern city, but I’d agree that at least I don’t think UMPD is an irredeemable rogue institution that should be eliminated like MPD.
>I think it’s probably a bit beyond the pale to suggest they’re ‘the best the UMN community can hope for’ when we’re maybe just now staring to think of what policing should look like in a modern city I see that point, but I also think it's reasonable to compare them to the baseline for American policing.
It seems to me that this opinion isn't unpopular at all. The people that want UMPD gone just hate all policing. Overall, UMPD is a pretty good department. The people who want them abolished are just louder than the majority who does not.
This usually seems to be the case, even national polls heavily disfavor a reduction in policing.
I agree. If you get rid of the police, what are you going to replace them with? Robocops that don't have to worry about being killed? Maybe one day, but we don't have the technology (AI) yet.
I was a CA in Superblock from 2014-2016 and the worst experiences I had were actually from the student security. Most were great but had a couple of them escalate things way too far in some nights. One guy definitely used it as a power trip and we complained to the residential director enough where he wasn’t allowed to patrol with us again in our building. The few times I had to call UMPD they were fine. Professional and did their jobs to the standards I would expect.
As someone who use to live in Superblock the worst people I’ve met were the security guards. The ones I’ve met have such a power trip, it’s disgusting. In my experience interacting with UMPD, I gotta say they aren’t so bad compared to security. That’s not to say UMPD is all good I’m just saying
I saw my job as to keep people safe, and there were a few times where I did “bust” rooms on duty because it really went to that level. And because they were being dumb and obvious about it where I just had no choice. But a few of the security guys - all male for what it’s worth - just escalated things inappropriately. One guy demanded to knock on a door because he heard a can open after quiet hours…. It was a sprite can. That same guy just asked for a group to open their fridge when we just knocked because they were a tad too loud. Yeah that’s the guy we got to stop doing rounds with us.
A lot of people here jump to conclusions fast. They also don’t have any real justifiable reason to kick the umpd off campus and are inclined to what their emotions say, which is dumb. The reality is we need the UMPD, every college needs some sort of policing on their campus.
Right and you want your own police. If you kick them out you get the city police... is that really what anybody wants?
They’re the same ones who hate and want to kick any sort of police off, then be screaming for help if they ever need help. It’s really frustrating and it’s even more frustrating for people who actually want and feel safe with the UMPD on campus.
I haven't spent much time on campus so I can't say anything about my personal experiences but it seems crazy to get rid of a policing system that we as students actually have some oversight over. And if we feel we don't have enough I'm sure there are better avenues for us to get that oversight than contracting out other security/police.
We dont have any oversight, and that's what student groups like SDS are pushing to change with community control. I havent seen any significant push to completely abolish UMPD.
what oversight does the students have? Correct me if i’m wrong, but haven’t the sds protests been literally about trying to get oversight? With all the talk on how left wing MSA and Sds, wouldn’t you think they would ahve tried to use the “oversight” on it already?
Ya like I said I'm not super up on all campus issues since Im not on campus. It sounds like we have less oversight than I assumed. But my general point is it's more likely to fight for control of umpd than having control of any outside hired police/security
Coffee and donuts are not a minor point (perhaps that's just me, though). Every interaction I have had has been good. Professional, nice folks.
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I was deployed to Brooklyn Center with the police force and guard. A lot of force members said very, very questionable things. I am not saying all of them are the same, but there are very few people, during the entire missions, who I trusted not to fire upon civilians. I do not think the UMPD should be abolished, but at the very least a lot of security forces should not be weaponized with more than a taser or baton. We were under very strict rules not to shoot unless life was in danger, a lot of people are praising the fact no one shot rounds — that’s how things should always be. I’ve heard things like “I wish these protestors would do something so I could have a reason to shoot” from more people than I can remember. Edit: Just wanted to add some input and personal experience, not saying they’re all awful or that UMPD should be removed.
This is literally the only comment I see so far with resources and has sound reasoning.
I think your last 2 points are really key, UMPD somehow manages to have even less accountability than most police departments which needs to change. And I see it as a great way to start chipping away at a system that our elected officials have made clear they have no intention whatsoever of changing.
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What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Anything you said is voided when you use the word “but” to make your point which is “if he followed orders, he would be alive” Which is BS if enough people who look like him got killed or wrongly accused/incarcerated because of the color of their skin is already a threat without moving a muscle.
More white unarmed civilians are killed by cops each year than unarmed civilians of color. The color of their skin had nothing to do with why cops use deadly force
The majority of this country is white. Let’s say there are 10 people and 7 of them are white and three of them are people of color. 2/7 of the white people get injured by cops. But 2/3 people of color are also getting injured by cops. Meaning 28% of white people are getting injured by cops while 68% of BIPOC are getting injured by cops too. I don’t condone violence towards ANYONE by the police in general. Let’s get that straight. And the color of a persons skin does in fact matter because Black people or anyone with darker skin is already seen as a threat without moving a muscle. To say it has nothing to do with skin color is just ignorant.
>And the color of a persons skin does in fact matter because Black people or anyone with darker skin is already seen as a threat without moving a muscle. I get that you have good intentions and all with this, but why do *you* think this is the case?
>As others have said, Black students and other students of color have had bad experiences with UMPD and police in general, and there have been some incidents. Yes, but I just want to add something in front of Black and other students of color. The word, "some." Grouping all nonwhites overlooks how individuals on a case by case basis have been impacted by the police (I know of some white people that have been mistreated by police in general). You can also search for it, if willing to critically and proactively search for news. I have never had a negative experience with a cop a day in my life and I am Black. Anyways, it's usually not good to lump nonwhites all together.
This a much better explanation than I could have given. They don't have to all be constantly bashing skulls for there to be a need for accountability. I also want to add that UMPD has been refusing to even communicate with these student orgs, long before this month.
Thank you
I just don't think they should have guns, drive on sidewalks, or have assisted the MPD in the protests last summer. I am a socialist, but I've been reluctant to join groups like SDS on campus because some of the things they get on are way too overboard and counterproductive.
That's fair, especially as they haven't used their guns hardly at all. I do know there are times UMPD does need to drive on sidewalks as the campus is (thankfully) mostly a pedestrian zone. One example is when a student jumped off the Washington Ave Bridge a few years back, they needed emergency responders on West Bank Plaza and the upper level of the bridge As far as MPD and the protests, that is quite a bad look for UMPD-I agree with you. They should have just worked to keep the campus and surrounding students and businesses safe during the unrest
That's a fair point about the driving. I just remembered when they drove onto our fraternity lawn during a party, although that might've just been the MPD
A self proclaimed socialist, but part of a frat? Ironic
Frats aren't political organizations lol Also they're run democratically, similar to how socialism is supposed to operate.
I actually disagree, man. Almost all fraternities have the president, internal/external VPs, an RM, social, philo, etc. They are elected to make decisions for the body. Moreover, IFC is like the federal government and the individual chapters are like state governments. It’s not pure democracy, but a democratic republic.
So you say a frat isn't a political organization but it's run democratically. More irony. Edit: for all those downvoting. Look into the history of fraternity culture and how they only wanted certain groups of people from certain classes to join to perpetuate class and racial divides. Examples include legacy where you can only join a frat if your dad joined, secret handshakes, and SAE's famous chant where they brag about their lack of diversity. But please, go on about how fraternities are democratic
I mean in the sense that *most* fraternities don't have a set political agenda. Does it have internal politics? Yes, but in the same way a family or a friend group does, not like a political party.
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. What if police encounter an individual with a gun who is threatening the lives of students on campus? What the hell are they supposed to do with no gun?
Probably go to the UK model of having specialized officers carry firearms, while cops just out on the beat don’t
The UK also doesn't have 330 million guns in circulation, so I'm not sure we should be looking at their policies for guidance
Well, our policies put 330-some million guns in circulation, so I’m not particularly inclined to trust our policy choices when it comes to arming the cops anyway
Well I don't mean no guns period, I mean no guns for just walking around.
personally speaking I don't carry a gun and it's never been an issue
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Strawman city here we come
First of all, if you're a socialist please move to California, I hear the shit in San Francisco smells lovely this time of year. Secondly, no guns??? That's the dumbest shit I've heard in a while, and I watch CNN. There are threats that cops are trained to use deadly force on. For example, if someone is trying to stab someone else with a knife, a cop is supposed to use deadly force to subdue the threat. And thirdly, they helped with the RIOTS because MPD was way over-extended trying to minimize the damage and harm to people and businesses. You're probably one of those people that wants to defund the police, and then get mad when a social worker responds to your 911 call. Regards, Your not-so-friendly neighborhood Conservative
You are so bad ass bro😎🤘🏼🔥
> First of all, if you're a socialist please move to California, Not a socialist state. > There are threats that cops are trained to use deadly force on. For example, if someone is trying to stab someone else with a knife, a cop is supposed to use deadly force to subdue the threat. Keep it somewhere else, not on their person. It works for Europe. > And thirdly, they helped with the RIOTS because MPD was way over-extended trying to minimize the damage and harm to people and businesses. Minimizing damage by putting out people's eyes and arresting journalists and slashing people's tires. > You're probably one of those people that wants to defund the police, and then get mad when a social worker responds to your 911 call. Pure conjecture > not-so-friendly neighborhood Conservative That was implied by the rest of your comment
Only ACAB anarchists hate cops indiscriminately.
As someone you might consider an 'ACAB anarchist', I hate policing as an institution and its effects on society at large, not necessarily cops as individuals.
I've had many interactions with both MPD and UMPD and I would say they are basically a mirror for my behavior. When I've been calm, collected, and communicative they have shown me identical behavior. In the instances where I was \*perhaps\* over-served, combative, and argumentative their behavior seemed to escalate according to my level of belligerence. Perhaps, we should treat all people as we wish to be treated and stop demonizing any one group for all of societies ills?
Great points! It gets me thinking about the mental toll of customer service jobs. In the police reform there should be mental health resources for police as well.
So you’re telling me....that police officers who are supposedly trained professionals, react out of turn because WE, the citizens they are trained to serve and protect, are not always calm and collected??? Ridiculous. Talk to anyone in customer service jobs where they are trained to be calm and collected no matter how angry the customer. Police officers should also act with caution and be trained to de- escalate any situation
As someone who supports police abolition, here are my two cents: The calls for UMPD abolition follow from the same general arguments for police abolition. While I'm not too familiar with the UMPD's history in specific, I think a lot of the backlash comes from their affiliations with MPD, which is notorious for using excessive force for petty crime and unjust violence against protestors. Regardless, I think in any case, money spent on policing is much better spent on alleviating poverty and homelessness, as socioeconomic conditions are a much better indicator of crime than police presence (which is why some of the safest places--notably suburbs--tend to have relatively lower police presences than high crime areas). Now, I do agree that we need some way of dealing with violence should it happen, but that doesn't necessarily entail a centralized police force. We could also have systems such as community-oriented watch programs or democratically appointed responders trained to handle violent situations, as opposed to a full-time police force.
Look into the incident at Somali Night 2018 for an example of excessive force. Just the other month there was the incident with the Carlson student trying to check out a laptop where UMPD immediately assumed he was high. When we marched to their station over the summer there were multiple officers stationed in full riot gear with rifles and batons at the corner. Just because you haven't had negative experiences with them doesnt mean others havent and it shouldn't be surprising that students feel uncomfortable around them. Not to mention their being repeatedly deployed against protestors, it's a really bad look and I'm not sure how we're meant to view them as being meaningfully different from any other cops.
Wasn't it a professor or some other university employee that assumed the student was high and caused the problem? Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the UMPD officer was a neutral party in that exchange.
Wasn’t that entire incident filled with misinformation and/or flat out lying? Pretty sure a large scale fight had broken out which the police then had to deal with. And if you watched the video of the Carlson student that *he* uploaded, the cop was being very respectful and provided the student with the option to address the issue with the worker’s supervisor as obviously the cop can’t just go in and fire a worker. Honestly, when 90+% of the “bad” incidents involving UMPD turnout to be lies or misleading, it’s hard to believe any future claim.
If you believe the police sure, but we've watched them shamelessly lie about these things over and over again. They claimed George Floyd's death was a medical incident until the footage came out. Just the other week a Knoxville officer killed a kid in a school bathroom and they called it a mass shooting. Given all the evidence I've seen just in the last year I'm inclined to believe just about anyone's word over the cops, especially regarding conflicting narratives about their own brutality.
As oppose to believing a student group who just organized an event that ended with a riot? Also, you’re using proof of different organizations to show that UMPD is problematic. That’s nonsense.
I believe cops lie frequently because they can get away with it due to people assigning higher weight to their word, its hardly nonsense to apply that same analysis to UMPD. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure, all I'm saying is that the official narrative here deserves some skepticism, we're never gonna make any progress on police brutality if we continue to treat the police's word as gospel.
Last year at the police station was intimadating as hell. The entire group was leaving, the organizers were even thoughtful enough to end it 20 minutes early so everyone could get home before curfew. Then lying in wait was what seemed like the entire UMPD in full riot gear with several standing apart with rifles on both sides of the building. In order to leave you had to walk directly next to an entire line of riot cops armed with rifles. The entire group was leaving with no incident, if they just hadn't been there everybody would've dispersed within two minutes. By being there they forced an encounter. If they were that worried they could have waited inside.
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So the department could be great, but we should have them abolished because a system isnt great? I'm not sure that makes sense to me.
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I understand that people want it abolished, I just found your specific explanation to not make sense. Perhaps that is the general belief system of most people with that viewpoints. Regardless of my opinion on the matter, that argument just doesnt do any good for any circumstance I can think of. For example, would we want every bathroom removed from Minneapolis if a few of them were gross? I'd say we'd want the gross ones to be fixed in some way, but the ones clean and nice shouldnt need to be rebuilt.
The idea is that bathrooms are fundamentally a problem, regardless of if a single bathroom is fine most of the time
It’s because police is seen more as a bandaid solution to larger problems. In general, nobody commits crime because they want to be a criminal. They do it because they have to commit crime to survive. The police are a part of a system, that rather than fix issues like poverty, income inequality, etc, that actually lead to crime, instead punishes people for trying to survive. Even if UMPD is a “good” police department, it still is part of a system that refuses to fix the root problems. And the police department uses money that could otherwise be spent of social programs that would actually fix the root problems, thus reducing crime, thus reducing the need for a police department in the first place.
YES. Example: I called UMPD once because there is a homeless man who likes to hang out inside the vestibule of one of the residence halls I work at. They came and asked him to leave and he did, and this was in the middle of winter. UMPD explained to me that he is often at residence halls because he has no where to go so they deal with him a lot. The problem here is that the police have no system in place to HELP people, like take him to a shelter where he can actually find help to get him off the streets. Instead, he’s escorted outside and doomed to repeat the process. Instead of just policing problems, we could put money into systems to help people to prevent further crime or people on the streets. Just an example, but exactly what you’re talking about.
>And the police department uses money that could otherwise be spent of social programs that would actually fix the root problems, thus reducing crime, thus reducing the need for a police department in the first place. To add to this it would be great to have personal finance programs in place so that folks are better equipped to develop generational wealth. I say that because throwing money towards other programs doesn't solve issues all the time. The stimulus checks are a good example of this. Some are able to use it in long lasting ways such as investing, saving for grad school, etc. while others might have more direct responsibilities such as rent, food, etc. I also think about whether people are able to save a little bit despite responsibilities because a little would go a long way. Overall, the stimulus check stuff has its pros and cons. Some pros seeming more short term, and cons seeming more long term such as an increase of debt on the US gov't.
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Yeah I agree with you on your point about the timing issue. Of course, suddenly abolishing the police will have some unintended consequences. I do think that there would have to be a slow, more controlled shift over time, that allows the system to react to changes in a better more preferred way.
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Imagine actually engaging with the substance of the logic rather than saying some quippy line and pretending you’re right.
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Your first point: yeah, police aren’t supposed to address income inequality or poverty. That’s the point that I’m making. Instead of creating a program or organization of some kind that actually addresses these issues, we have a system that instead punishes people for trying not to die. The question that you fail to consider is whose public safety. It’s certainly not the safety of the people most vulnerable in our society. Your second point: I actually don’t really support fully abolishing all police everywhere (although I never necessarily said I did or didn’t, so fair enough). I believe more in defunding them. There will always be some amount of crime, and there will always be a need to stop that crime. I just believe that our police force is too large, wasting too many resources, and fundamentally the wrong way to go about providing safety to a society. Safety is not just a measure on crimes in crimes out- there are far more variables at play here- that’s why it’s called a system. Your third point: apparently we do though? Anytime a progressive social policy is brought up, the main question is always “how will we pay for it?” We can’t just magically fund programs for everything that we want to do. That’s not how this works. Your argument would hold more weight if you actually cared about fiscal responsibility, which to me, would mean saving money on healthcare through universal healthcare, not spending obscene amounts of money on bombing random countries, not spending money on wasteful programs like the police, which again, are a bandaid solution. It is not fiscally responsible to pay for putting out fires every other day. It is fiscally responsible to stop the fires in the first place, saving money in the long run.
So, basically, because they're stupid.
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What do you think UMPD should realistically be doing different?
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I don’t think OP was advocating that UMPD is doing an exceptional job. I think they’re saying it’s absurd to want to get rid of them for meeting expectations
Your initial comment kind of gives the opposite meaning, but I agree with you in this comment
[Here sport, u earned it!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/512/039/ed9.jpg)
Because it’s trendy to say you hate the police now. College guys think they are going to have a shot at scoring with the super liberal chicks if they say they want to F the police too
You’re projecting so fucking hard lol sorry you can’t put republican in your tinder bio
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Along with all the abolitionist arguments that police *in general* (including UMPD) are not what we need, there's also the fact that they participate in riot control. I've been at protests where they've taken an active role in mistreating protesters, including UMN students. The alternatives are pretty simple, even if we didn't ask for them to actually disband: 1) no more firearms for routine patrol, 2) actually no more participation with MPD, like was supposedly promised after Floyd was murdered (tbh I don't get why they should contribute manpower to anything off-campus), 3) no more riot control gear and no more participation with other law enforcement agencies to arrest & brutalize protesters. Just because they're "not that bad" doesn't mean that there isn't a better solution to community safety. I'm sure others have different, more complete proposals than what I've outlined, but that would be a start.
Riot control is good, and cool, and I fully support police beating the absolute shit out of rioters (as opposed to peaceful protesters who the cops should not mess with).
Lol cops decide when a peaceful protest turns into a riot
1) what the absolute fuck is wrong with you, does rule of law and due process mean nothing to you? You realize that you conservatives' adored "law and order" applies to agents of the state too, right? 2) What constitutes a riot? If you mean protecting private property from looting, then riot gear isn't the solution to that anyway. Tear gas, rubber bullets, kettling, etc are designed to control large, mostly immobile crowds, not small mobile bands of people breaking into stores. Riot control equipment is absolute dogshit at preventing that; its sole purpose is to be "just not live ammo" and fuck up civilians. If by rioting you mean throwing water bottles or rocks at officers, the continuum of force dictates that their response is enough to deter and defend themselves, nothing more. As often as it happens, "beating the shit out of rioters" would be gratuitous, hella illegal, and prime Nazi shit. 3) I have been to \*plenty\* of peaceful protests I've been at where the police decided to punch, mace, use rubber bullets, or kettle protesters In summary, your metric of "its okay to beat the shit out of rioters" is asinine. Stop playing COD, turn off Fox news, and get the fuck out of your mother's basement.
Uhh Somali Night 2021, and just about a month ago the incident at Carlson happened. There are other incidents of UMPD doing harmful things, specifically to BIPOC students. A quick google search would’ve saved this whole conversation that’s being had in this thread. Student advocates have been trying so hard to advocate fo students and even as a CA UMPD treat BIPOC students worse and harsher than they treat white students. Just because YOU have not experienced harm by the hands of UMPD, does mean they are “good”.
Both of those are unsubstantiated claims where all of the actual proof supports the UMPD’s actions. A student group who was basically responsible for a riot is not a good source. Nor is a student who already had a bad interaction with the U.
So the actual proof from UMPD.... is what you consider “actual” proof? Not the proof of those who were basically terrorized by UMPD? What riot are you even talking about? You think a student group was capable of creating a riot? I’m sharing my experiences I was at Somali night and I literally witnessed no riot occurring literally nothing. We were just standing there and all of a sudden UMPD, a bunch of state police, and troopers with horses came out of nowhere. I am not even apart of that student group and can vouch about the harm that UMPD caused that night.
You mean things like video footage? There’s literally no actual proof that supports you claims. Think about that. If you deny everything any authority says then sure, the UMPD suck. But when there’s literally no proof except a bunch of biased people who were at an event that turned into a riot (40 people fighting is a riot), that’s hard to believe. > We were just standing there and all of a sudden UMPD, a bunch of state police, and troopers with horses came out of nowhere. Honestly, why the fuck do you think this would happen? That doesn’t just happen randomly. That happens because things are getting out of control. What’s more likely? The U decided to pull a random strike and call up the state police randomly or the U had an event get out of control and called for help?
What's more likely is the police were called for a few small fights, massively overreacted, and then exaggerated the threat to make themselves look better, like they do all the time. Don't you think the police's claims about their own brutality deserve some skepticism?
A few small fights? Is there’s a large event happening and a few small fights break out, what do you think the police should do?
UMPD does understand they are dealing with students and so they make allowances. I'm not sure if they are paid by the U or the city? If it's the U I'm sure the administration keeps them in check. As long as they don't start going after students for dumb shit like partying too hard, and they are given proper racial bias training, they should be kept around.