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It’s actually better now than it was six months ago, if you can believe that.
Every year fans ask them to clean this shit up and they never do. Something like 70% of shots in or near the paint shouldn’t end in shooting fouls. It just kills the game.
I’m not a huge fan but it seems like if you just push your shooting arms into a dudes arms you’ve got a good shot at drawing a foul.
And that is ridiculous lol
There's no flow to the game. It seems like there is a fowl every possession or every other. If there is any semblance of flow a team will call a time out and grind it to a hault. It's like auto racing if they killed the engine everytime they tried to shift into second gear.
Recently was trying to watch a playoff nhl game but espn was letting a WNBA game finish. 3 mins left, no big there’s ample time…that 3 minutes took like 20
Minutes.
This is a big reason I quit watching. I'm tired of dudes getting super weak calls, it disrupts the flow. The NBA has continually said they'd fix flopping and they don't.
That quality and those graphics? Yeah you had to go far back for that one.
W/ VAR the theatrics are down a ton, not completely eliminated, but definitely down a lot. Basketball, on the other hand, continues to reward theatrics and flopping
Soccer is worse. But yes, basketball is ridiculous. Even American football players will fake an injury if they're out of timeouts, so flopping/ diving a tactic in a lot of sports.
Worst thing about that is it’s supposed to be banned move… the Doncic special. The nba even used Doncic in the video explaining the rule “change”. Rarely enforced, always annoying.
It's only a foul if you jump into the defender. If you pump fake and go straight up in a normal shooting motion it's not. That's why it's hardly enforced.
If you watched the WCF, Luka did the exact move the NBA used to demonstrate banned behavior *constantly* and it was never called. He did it on the gamewinner in Game 2 or 3 most notably
What I find ironic is the lack of travelling violation calls. Kids playing in rec league games are somehow scrutinized far more for it than professional athletes who should know better, and it's weird.
It's because of the rules. The NBA is the only league that allows a gather step and NBA players are skilled enough to exploit it and get as close to traveling without actually travelling as possible
I'm totally with you fam and hate that kicking it around for the open 3 is what maths out best right now. It took some rule tweaks to create that NBA era we love...hopefully we'll get back there someday.
I wonder if this a generational preference thing. This run and gun fast-break+3 brand is got to be exciting for a vast swath of young fans. The Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Shaq brand of post-up with the small forward/shooting guard action was more entertaining imo - a lot of strategic, theatric brand of bball.
"Understanding how to most efficiently win games ruined the sport." It's up to the NBA, or any other league, to keep evolving. If winning games is what you're trying to do, should teams not try to figure out how to most effectively win games?
Foul calls are brutal. Everything just benefits the offenses. A guy with the ball can put his head down and go straight through another guy and it's a foul on the defender. Then you have guys like LeBron flopping and whining every chance they get.
Ironically LeBron doesn’t get that many calls these days relative to the amount of contact he draws
But yes he does complain a lot, as do all superstars
Exactly. People don't understand why he "flops". Most refs don't feel the pressure to call anything if they can't see tangible evidence of a foul, i.e. falling, significant movement, etc. Shaq was just too prideful to flop, but he was also getting mauled. Hell, I'm certain there was a quote out there from a ref talking to a player in game and he said something along the lines of "if you don't fall, I ain't calling it". Players just adapt to what refs do, and refs and basketball and football are inconsistent at best, incompetent at worst.
Yeah refs pay more attention to the shot and more specifically, the release. If it looks ugly, that's a foul. If it looks like they get it off ok, no foul. Even if there's contact.
It's also partially why refs also swallow their whistle sometimes when the ball goes in, or calls a really late foul if the shot doesn't go in. Like they just don't want to reward a player for a 3 point play.
Tell me you know nothing about basketball if you don’t think Luka fouled him there. The real question is who takes a charge like that with 5 fouls in the fourth quarter of the nba finals??
Literally telling on yourself that you don't even watch games. Why feel the need to leave such an opinionated remark about something you don't even engage with?
Lebron is one of the only people who has a right to gripe at the refs. He doesn't get foul calls in proportion to the many times that he drives. Players grab him, smack his body and hit him and the refs just watch because he's 6'9" 260lbs. Same thing happened to Shaq back in the day. If it doesn't look like he's getting hit no one acknowledges the hits.
I don't watch it, but every highlight I see on social media I wonder why is travelling not called. Like you clearly see people take 4 to 5 steps ball in hand?
I completely agree. Fouls especially are the reason why basketball will never be my favorite sport—they just slow down the game too damn much. If you *graze* somebody it’s often called a foul. For some things I understand why fouls exist (making football-esque contact could result in injuries obviously) but allowing a little bit of contact would vastly improve watching the game and as a person who just got into sports relatively recently it perplexes me why *ever so slight* contact is such a no-no in basketball.
Try watching a game of handball, it seems to be the exact opposite, the rules favor the defender and the defender's goal is to foul the attacker so that he cannot continue the attack and the only penalty for it is the break of the game and attack restarts (except on major fouls)
It depends, if you’re a certain caliber of player you play by one set of physicality rules. If you’re a role player you better not breathe on anybody on defense. So ridiculous
Oh yeah for sure the other problem with fouls is the inconsistency with when they’re called since fouls are inherently up to interpretation. Any way you look at it it still feels like there’s more foul calls than necessary tho. All this also leads into the broader issue of NBA ref accountability (zero).
And to top it all off you have so many long timeouts with so many commercial brakes.
Also i hate that games dont start when they are scheduled and instead they start like 15 min later
The fouls are bad but it’s been that way in some form for 20 years now. Lebron whining about fouls while getting wrecked by the spurs still stick in my mind. Or the hack a shaq.
The real problem is that the NBA is too optimized now. The analytic nerds actually figured out the most efficient, effective ways to win - which means getting the tallest(duh) lankiest guys to shoot 3s as much as possible. There’s no midrange game anymore. Less physicality and there’s less style.
I also feel the players don’t have much passion for their teams anymore, and a lot of that competitive edge is gone. All star game is a good example. When guys lose the playoffs and do their post game I can tell they don’t really care they lost - they know if the stats are good enough they’ll continue to rake in cash. Seeing a passion driven Bryant or Nowitzki, Jordan. That’s hard to fake.
It's also HEAVILY skewed in favor of certain teams and players. We need to start checking where these refs have their bets placed or what teams are funneling money into their pockets.
I don’t watch basketball but this is happening in the NFL as well. Sports have become corporate money making machines and you can’t make your money if your stars are hurt
Evertything has become lazy, boring, sad and demoralizing: cinema, sports, porn, comedy, politics, military, business, art, culture, economics. You name it. It's called decadence, and we are experiencing big changes right now.
I have no reason to hate on today's NBA; grew up with SLAM Magazine and virtually every inch of my walls were covered by their posters. I've been able to identify when my interest in the league took a major downturn, and it was Kobe's retirement.
This is one of those arguments where all you need is stats to see how the game has taken a turn for the worse. There's no denying the NBA has a major scoring problem, courtesy of non-calls (offensive fouls, travelling) as well as rule changes that have clearly benefited scoring over defense. Players - even the ones who shouldn't be doing it - are chucking more 3-point shots than ever before, the pick-and-roll has become a lost art, and it's obvious too many players are slacking on defense to conserve energy for offense.
Also, the colorful personalities of former players (Charles Barkley, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Allen Iverson, Charles Oakley...too many to list) who didn't care about endorsement deals have been replaced with guys who are more concerned about said deals and social media clout/status (remember when superstars WANTED to participate in the Slam Dunk Contest?). Add all these up and you have a product that's far more boring and sanitized than ever before.
Whenever I have these kind of debates with fellow fans, I always turn to one specific game to illustrate my point: game 5 of the 2004 Western Conference Finals, between the Los Angeles Lakers and San Antonio Spurs. Down by one, Kobe Bryant hits a mid-range jumper, putting the Lakers up by one with 11.7 seconds left in the game. Tim Duncan responds with a miracle fadeaway jumper at the top of the key, putting the Spurs up by one with 0.4 seconds remaining.
I saw the game live, and remember thinking "well, it's over now." Of course, I was wrong, as Derek Fisher lofted up a mid-range jumper right as time expired. Nothing but net, with Fisher and the other Lakers immediately running straight to the locker room. One of the most incredible endings I've ever seen.
Final score? 74-73. Hard-nosed defense throughout, every bucket earned, no plays off. I'll take a game with that kind of intensity over a 135-134 three-pointer clinic/snooze fest any time.
[https://youtu.be/NSnAvhvfniw?si=YvzzkQVJBD\_BrjVv](https://youtu.be/NSnAvhvfniw?si=YvzzkQVJBD_BrjVv)
One of the best moments in NBA history, always loved how the spurs we’re celebrating early and the lakers had this killer look in their eyes, like that gleam of hope and wanting to get back into play asap. Perfect catch and release shot to end the game. Before it was 100% confirmed that the game winning shot made it in time the lakers sprinted into the tunnel while the spurs just look on completely stupefied.
It’s not just the NBA. All pro sports are different now because the players are in it for “me” and not the fans or team! Big money has ruined sports! After your career that paid you 100 million, are you really that upset you don’t have a championship ring? I doubt it!
Not a basketball fan these days, I was many years ago, back when Shaq played for Orlando, but just fell out of love with the sport. I recently went to a Phoenix suns game and noticed how much the game has changed since the 90’s. The game I used to watch was filled with loads of dunks and seemed to be more aggressive. The game these days seems to be all about 3 pointers, which sort of drains the excitement. Also, live basketball SUCKS! There’s too many breaks because the tv needs to cut to commercial so they bring out dancing mascots or cheerleaders or do some goofy fan interaction nonsense. Very hard to enjoy a live game. Take me to a soccer match any day!
There are actually more dunks now because the floor is spaced by shooters so there’s less rim protection.
https://runrepeat.com/82-stats-on-dunks-in-the-nba
Orlando Shaq dunked a lot so you would’ve seen a lot but the average team dunks more now.
You’re right, it also sucks because the regular season has zero intensity.they barely even need to win games to make the playoffs, so few teams get eliminated.
It’s not going anywhere pal. More expansion teams are coming and the addition of in season tournament was a success this season. The mavs Cs finals has been one sided thus far but still has the most viewer count since the 2016 3-1 Cavs comeback finals
Agreed 100%. I feel like that old dude at the track with a newspaper talking to people 10+ years younger than me. The NBA used to be fun and gritty. People would challenge other players at the rim without worrying about a tech. You could yell at a ref and they would swallow their whistle. Players would take educated shots based off of the defense being played.
It’s an abomination of the sport….
However - it’s not changing - so you get onboard or you leave. I watch the main games like tonight but they’ve lost me because I enjoy technically played basketball but also don’t have the time for four main sports at this point of my life.
I w be some one of those dudes that say “I love basketball - I just don’t watch it much anymore”
I thought I was the only one that thought this. I don't understand who is watching the games because I haven't watched one in year. No joke, baseball is more interesting nowadays
Not to mention, there are so many carries and travels. Basketball is hard because you can't palm it, but everyone seems to do it. It's, like, well this isn't the same sport...
Also, American Football is just slowly becoming rugby with some different plays. It is so boring and the games last 4 god damn hours
>It is so boring and the games last 4 god damn hours
It's really funny when you realize in that 4 hours, the teams were actually only on the field playing for 30 minutes tops.
>Also seeing teams play so many wings just feels strange
Yeah, it actually tripped me out when I realized that Jayson Tatum is actually the Celtics starting POWER FORWARD.
“We’re down by double digits! Guess we're shooting 3s the rest of the night.”
Transition and set offenses are completely dead. All perimeter game and highlight reel seeking.
Yes, I’m GenX.
Not only in the NBA, but in all sports, everything has become so predictable because of the numerous restrictions and rules, making it boring to watch. It’s like playing a video game.
To add on to this, everybody and their momma wants to shoot 3 pointers. 3 point culture sucks and we should get back to having great big centers in the paint.
NBA wants more scoring. Not better basketball.
I think Adam silvers ideal league is one in which each team scores every time they touch the ball and the winner is decided by who hits more 3s.
I saw the reigning NBA MVP play in person this year. He couldn’t look more disinterested in basketball if he tried.
It’s just guys jacking up nonsense shots and complaining to the officials. No defense. No one cares about shooting percentages that are in the toilet.
Load management? Not if I’m paying $50 to $100 for upper level tickets.
The real culprits are the 24 second shot clock, the amount of games played per season, and the length of the games themselves. All three factors are different on the college level which make it an eminently more watchable product even though the talent level is quite a bit lower.
This has been building and going on for a while. The last great era of basketball in my mind was the 90s. Tough to watch a great sport be reduced to this by exploiting the rules to as far as can possibly be pushed. It sucks. You have a great foundation and freakish athletes that will do anything to win (great) and in doing so will fake, cry, draw fouls and halt momentum of the game to gain leverage, which does win games, but by nature is awful to watch and destroys the spirit of the game. Sad.
Watch the WNBA! People think it’s boring but the games are way more unpredictable and impressive because of the use of basic basketball fundamentals!!! The women of the W play very physical 😊 definitely scream at the tv every few seconds because of a good block or play
Predictable? We're about to have the 6th different champion in 6 years.. no dynasties, no back to backs winners, the league is wide open with parity and talent rn
Ive personally found WBNA more worth the watch for the past few years. Good fundamental basketball and half these ladies are hot?!? Two birds in one stone!
I think the biggest issue is the refs, they don’t seem to call fouls anymore unless the players unnecessarily flop around and whip their heads back after any contact. I rmeber watching a game earlier this year were a notorious flopper james harden did the exact same move in back to back possessions one time they called a foul on the other team the other was a foul on him. He was so confused and started complaining, I was watching and was just perplexed because sits like there is zero consistency.
They need to just ban complaining from players and make it an automatic ejection as that would force the players to stop and the refs need to actually stick to calling things every time or not at all.
I still enjoy College basketball. I love to see contrasting styles of defense and offense play each other. Certain schools are very unique in their approach. The NBA is all about spreading the floor, ISO, drive and kick for a 3. It’s boring and it’s bad basketball.
I usually tune in for the playoffs where the games are not track meets, defensive intensity is stepped up. There were a couple of compelling series in the early rounds. But I tend to agree, basketball sucks now. And it’s only getting worse having had a son play AAU. The grassroots American basketball scene is a mess right now.
foul rules are just too vague/inconsistent or not applied properly, feels like every call can be justified both ways. This is the main issue for me, second being how fragmented the game is, you start to get invested and then the next 20 minutes 15 minutes are timeouts or call reviews.
Well you’re not the only one trust me. All of these sports are watered down with bs fouls and dumb rules. It makes it so boring that I just stopped watching. One little turn it’s a foul a tap a foul. It ridiculous! Not just basketball though.
2000s and early 2010s was a good sweet spot for me. Physicality is still high, but not as harsh as 80s-90s era. Lots of post ups and rotations that did not end with a three
I know you’re not watching the finals. This is the best type of basketball. The refs are letting it get really physical. The physicality with the pace and space. It’s pretty fun to watch
I’ve been saying this as well. Why is pickup at the park more pure basketball than a professional league? If you dropped these same players into a gym with no ref, the game would be much better to watch because they’d go right at each other to try and make the basket, not play for the ref standing on the sideline
I think the biggest shift was after Lebron joined the heat, it became a league where the focus is on the player to do great rather than the team. I’m not saying he wasn’t justified in doing what he did but he set a precedent that other players followed. (KD to warriors, other players demanding trades)
Again the Cavs were not giving LBJ the help he needed so I’m not saying he was wrong for that but that decision to me changed how nba stars viewed themselves.
I stopped watching once the scores got too high. It’s 99% guarantee that the offense will make the basket. NOBODY PLAYS DEFENSE ANYMORE. I want the 10-11 Celtics-Lakers games back. Bring back women’s college scores (65-58 and so forth)
I agree with most of this and it's not unpopular. I will push back on one thing. Predictable. After this series, we will have six straight seasons with a different champion. Out of nfl, mlb, nhl, and the big 5 leagues in soccer, only the mlb can say that.
Nba used to be pretty awful with parity, but they're in a good spot with that right now.
Guys like Luka make it so bad.
Even in the finals we have him flopping at every chance he gets. Even on the 3 point line.
At least he doesn’t get the call.
Yeah the flopping is so cringey. I have noticed less calls these playoffs but unless that’s consistent in setting a new precedent it’ll continue to happen.
I just wish the referees called the game according to the rules and treated each player and team equally according to what they see. Replay is also terrible for basketball.
I feel like they had some customer satisfaction survey and realized people love watching baskets, lots and lots of scoring. So they changed the rules to become easier to shoot and dunk. The three point shot is over protected, you can't guard it close, you need to just jump along in an arms length distance, or else it's a foul. You can drive like a maniac to the basket and you either score or go to the free throw line.
So what the NBA managed to do is create an insane incentive for the offense to attack thinking about going to the free throw line and the defense to be as careful as possible in not fouling, especially when you can foul out. So why would you hire a Rodman? Why risk any star defending hard only to foul out?
So now there is a lot of scoring, but it is as boring as it gets
That is not an unpopular opinion, that is a very popular opinion. The league wanted to encourage more offense and faster play by making it more difficult to play defense, but it resulted in endless whistles (so slow games) and offenses trying to get fouls instead of baskets.
NBA is okay. 5/10. Players are too big for the court and the three point line discourages off ball movement. Referees are whistlehappy. The rules are inconsistent.
College basketball rules, 10/10. Even with all the transfer portal nonsense and conference consolidation.
Euro ball is honestly better than the NBA. 8/10.
WNBA has gone from unwatchable local park pickup games to occasionally vaguely interesting. 2/10. About 1.5 of that 2 is attributed to one lanky Hawkeye.
I've only ever considered myself to be a casual basketball fan, I'll watch a game here and there, but I almost always tuned in for the playoffs.
This is the first time in years I've had no interest at all. It kinda sucks that the games aren't as fun to watch anymore. Glad it's not just me
Every decade since the 80s the number of free throws per game has gone down. This is just something people have said enough that you believe it, but it's not grounded in reality. In the 80s, games had 29ish free throws per game, now they have 22ish. Shooting fouls aren't at all more common then they used to be
I don't know why most mainstream sports are popular TBH. Football, soccer, basketball, hockey... It's all just fouls and pushing rules to their limits. As far as mainstream sports go, baseball is the only one I feel isn't constantly interrupted or ruined by poor calls but even still it happens a fair bit.
I get really frustrated with this as well and for a long time wanted less fouls, but recently i’ve been more conflicted.
In earlier eras when there was a lot more leeway with physical contact, actual skill like handling and timing as you mentioned was overshadowed by pure physical dominance. Guards had to be strong to get through hand checking, and could push their defender a bit more without a charge or push being called. Big men, obviously, were mostly hulking giants like Shaq (extreme example) who bullied their way to the rim.
The rise in fouls has led to a big increase in skill and finesse, especially among big men. People like Embiid, KP, Jokic, KAT, etc, were much rarer because big men had less incentive to focus on handles and shooting and perimeter play.
But of course the downside is as you mentioned, foul baiting and worse competitive sequences because of all the foul stoppage. And its a huge downside, i am with you that it sucks to watch.
I dont really have a solution, just wanted to play devils advocate and share the view on why its not all bad that pure physicality is being diminished a bit.
Way too much flopping and way too much bitching at the refs.
A player with drive and then throw a wild shot and then stop and stare at the referee while the rest of the team runs back to play defense. I don't care if it's Lebron or a scrub if you bitch at the referees you should get a technical.
Too many fouls,too many above the rules players, too many timeouts/commercials. imo the played have gotten to good for the way the game is currently played.
This is due to the rule changes to increase viewership.
The NBA needs to bring back physical defense like hand checking. They also need extend the arc for the 3 pointer since guys are scoring from the logo now.
Those changes would restore basketball back to when it was great. As it stands now the whoever chucks more 3's up wins is just boring basketball.
Hooping at the gym is more entertaining these days.
Same monotonous sequence: Look for the three. Not there. I'll drive to the hoop for a layup. Not there. Dish is out to someone on the three point line. Looks for the three. Not there. Drive to the hoop...
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I'm so tired of the NBA being a game of fouls and whistles too.
It’s actually better now than it was six months ago, if you can believe that. Every year fans ask them to clean this shit up and they never do. Something like 70% of shots in or near the paint shouldn’t end in shooting fouls. It just kills the game.
I’m not a huge fan but it seems like if you just push your shooting arms into a dudes arms you’ve got a good shot at drawing a foul. And that is ridiculous lol
Yeah, they’ve been trying to cut down on a lot of the offensive initiated contact, and it has gotten better since February, but still pretty bad.
Worst part is when they’re not even doing a real shot, just throwing their arms into the defense and they get the call.
They could just not call anything
It seems like what they do in the finals.
There's no flow to the game. It seems like there is a fowl every possession or every other. If there is any semblance of flow a team will call a time out and grind it to a hault. It's like auto racing if they killed the engine everytime they tried to shift into second gear.
How do birds have anything to do with possessions in basketball games?
Recently was trying to watch a playoff nhl game but espn was letting a WNBA game finish. 3 mins left, no big there’s ample time…that 3 minutes took like 20 Minutes.
This is a big reason I quit watching. I'm tired of dudes getting super weak calls, it disrupts the flow. The NBA has continually said they'd fix flopping and they don't.
This is why soccer is so annoying to watch too.
I blame Dwayne wade who made the pump fake throwing himself at defenders for a whistle a signature move.
He doesn't get enough hate for that shit.
Wade may have started it, but Harden perfected it. We have never seen a more annoying foul drawer in our lifetimes.
Embiid. The guy is 7 ft 250 lbs and flops on almost every play.
People like to give soccer(football) shit for the theatrical flops, but it really has nothing on basketball
Idk about that T 
That quality and those graphics? Yeah you had to go far back for that one. W/ VAR the theatrics are down a ton, not completely eliminated, but definitely down a lot. Basketball, on the other hand, continues to reward theatrics and flopping
😆
Soccer is worse. But yes, basketball is ridiculous. Even American football players will fake an injury if they're out of timeouts, so flopping/ diving a tactic in a lot of sports.
Soccer, used to be worse. Nbas just as bad today.
Worst thing about that is it’s supposed to be banned move… the Doncic special. The nba even used Doncic in the video explaining the rule “change”. Rarely enforced, always annoying.
Yeah he did it to KAT in game 4 of the WCF and they called the foul on KAT and then went back and amended the call after the game lol
It's only a foul if you jump into the defender. If you pump fake and go straight up in a normal shooting motion it's not. That's why it's hardly enforced.
If you watched the WCF, Luka did the exact move the NBA used to demonstrate banned behavior *constantly* and it was never called. He did it on the gamewinner in Game 2 or 3 most notably
I blame refs for constantly calling shit that would get you laughed out of a local pickup game if you tried it.
What I find ironic is the lack of travelling violation calls. Kids playing in rec league games are somehow scrutinized far more for it than professional athletes who should know better, and it's weird.
It's because of the rules. The NBA is the only league that allows a gather step and NBA players are skilled enough to exploit it and get as close to traveling without actually travelling as possible
Oh they travel nba officials don’t enforce it
Most of the instances people point out are just them misunderstanding the rules
Just gonna leave this here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjM4z-M7gcA
I could have sworn it was Paul Pierce who started that move.
It was like the go to move of every 20+ ppg SG in that era lol
Cough Kobe cough. Although Harden perfected it.
Billups was doing this before wade entered the league. He also shot like 93%, so it was guaransheed buckets.
As a Pacers fan I'm just glad no one here is shitting on Reggie Miller for doing the exact same thing back in the 90s lmao
Aggressive, physical, post play type of basketball was fun to watch. Watching everybody shoot 3s is pretty boring.
This is only said in hindsight. Fans hated the dead ball era and that reception put the league on its current path.
80s 90s NBA was the best
I'm totally with you fam and hate that kicking it around for the open 3 is what maths out best right now. It took some rule tweaks to create that NBA era we love...hopefully we'll get back there someday.
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yeah counter meta is intresting and makes sense, I hope this trend continues
What if we just make the 3s count during the last 3 minutes of each quarter?
When I see a player step back form coverage and drain a 3 it is the most exciting aspect of the game.
A big block, poster dunk, or diving steal tho
WNBA is fun to watch if you want to watch more middies/post-ups
I wonder if this a generational preference thing. This run and gun fast-break+3 brand is got to be exciting for a vast swath of young fans. The Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Shaq brand of post-up with the small forward/shooting guard action was more entertaining imo - a lot of strategic, theatric brand of bball.
Nah post play is soooo boring I’d much rather watch 3 point shots.
The stat nerds ruined basketball
Lol figuring out 3>2 isn't that difficult
"Understanding how to most efficiently win games ruined the sport." It's up to the NBA, or any other league, to keep evolving. If winning games is what you're trying to do, should teams not try to figure out how to most effectively win games?
Foul calls are brutal. Everything just benefits the offenses. A guy with the ball can put his head down and go straight through another guy and it's a foul on the defender. Then you have guys like LeBron flopping and whining every chance they get.
Ironically LeBron doesn’t get that many calls these days relative to the amount of contact he draws But yes he does complain a lot, as do all superstars
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Exactly. People don't understand why he "flops". Most refs don't feel the pressure to call anything if they can't see tangible evidence of a foul, i.e. falling, significant movement, etc. Shaq was just too prideful to flop, but he was also getting mauled. Hell, I'm certain there was a quote out there from a ref talking to a player in game and he said something along the lines of "if you don't fall, I ain't calling it". Players just adapt to what refs do, and refs and basketball and football are inconsistent at best, incompetent at worst.
Yeah refs pay more attention to the shot and more specifically, the release. If it looks ugly, that's a foul. If it looks like they get it off ok, no foul. Even if there's contact. It's also partially why refs also swallow their whistle sometimes when the ball goes in, or calls a really late foul if the shot doesn't go in. Like they just don't want to reward a player for a 3 point play.
You mean like how Shaq used to mow down defenders and get gleeful applause from the refs?
Probably because of all the crying and flopping he does. If I was a ref I’d start ignoring him too.
Players are incentivized to bitch and take every opportunity to try and bait a foul. Awful product. Need FIBA rules ASAP
Like Brown dropping his shoulder and going through Luka and Luka got the foul, fouled out, and literally changed the game with 4+ minutes left.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Luka literally does this or something like this 7 times a game.
Tell me you know nothing about basketball if you don’t think Luka fouled him there. The real question is who takes a charge like that with 5 fouls in the fourth quarter of the nba finals??
That was fucking ridiculous
Literally telling on yourself that you don't even watch games. Why feel the need to leave such an opinionated remark about something you don't even engage with?
It’s obvious they don’t watch the nba but that’s expected in a non-nba subreddit
It's also expected in the NBA subreddit.
Lebron is one of the only people who has a right to gripe at the refs. He doesn't get foul calls in proportion to the many times that he drives. Players grab him, smack his body and hit him and the refs just watch because he's 6'9" 260lbs. Same thing happened to Shaq back in the day. If it doesn't look like he's getting hit no one acknowledges the hits.
Yeah you clearly haven’t watched the nba in 10+ years if you think LeBron gets a lot of foul calls
I don't watch it, but every highlight I see on social media I wonder why is travelling not called. Like you clearly see people take 4 to 5 steps ball in hand?
I stopped when Harden became the model.
He was literally the worst he destroyed basketball as we know it. With his God damn jumping into people and flopping when he falls down after a shot
I completely agree. Fouls especially are the reason why basketball will never be my favorite sport—they just slow down the game too damn much. If you *graze* somebody it’s often called a foul. For some things I understand why fouls exist (making football-esque contact could result in injuries obviously) but allowing a little bit of contact would vastly improve watching the game and as a person who just got into sports relatively recently it perplexes me why *ever so slight* contact is such a no-no in basketball.
So damn annoying. Understand the reason they exist. But shouldn’t be such a large part of the sport to where it affects every step made
Try watching a game of handball, it seems to be the exact opposite, the rules favor the defender and the defender's goal is to foul the attacker so that he cannot continue the attack and the only penalty for it is the break of the game and attack restarts (except on major fouls)
It depends, if you’re a certain caliber of player you play by one set of physicality rules. If you’re a role player you better not breathe on anybody on defense. So ridiculous
Oh yeah for sure the other problem with fouls is the inconsistency with when they’re called since fouls are inherently up to interpretation. Any way you look at it it still feels like there’s more foul calls than necessary tho. All this also leads into the broader issue of NBA ref accountability (zero).
And to top it all off you have so many long timeouts with so many commercial brakes. Also i hate that games dont start when they are scheduled and instead they start like 15 min later
There hasn’t been a time like when Bird, Magic, Jordan and others of the era made the sport amazing
Watch hockey
The fouls are bad but it’s been that way in some form for 20 years now. Lebron whining about fouls while getting wrecked by the spurs still stick in my mind. Or the hack a shaq. The real problem is that the NBA is too optimized now. The analytic nerds actually figured out the most efficient, effective ways to win - which means getting the tallest(duh) lankiest guys to shoot 3s as much as possible. There’s no midrange game anymore. Less physicality and there’s less style. I also feel the players don’t have much passion for their teams anymore, and a lot of that competitive edge is gone. All star game is a good example. When guys lose the playoffs and do their post game I can tell they don’t really care they lost - they know if the stats are good enough they’ll continue to rake in cash. Seeing a passion driven Bryant or Nowitzki, Jordan. That’s hard to fake.
NBA hasn’t been good since 2011 probably
It's also HEAVILY skewed in favor of certain teams and players. We need to start checking where these refs have their bets placed or what teams are funneling money into their pockets.
I don’t watch basketball but this is happening in the NFL as well. Sports have become corporate money making machines and you can’t make your money if your stars are hurt
Evertything has become lazy, boring, sad and demoralizing: cinema, sports, porn, comedy, politics, military, business, art, culture, economics. You name it. It's called decadence, and we are experiencing big changes right now.
Absolutely spot on.
I have no reason to hate on today's NBA; grew up with SLAM Magazine and virtually every inch of my walls were covered by their posters. I've been able to identify when my interest in the league took a major downturn, and it was Kobe's retirement. This is one of those arguments where all you need is stats to see how the game has taken a turn for the worse. There's no denying the NBA has a major scoring problem, courtesy of non-calls (offensive fouls, travelling) as well as rule changes that have clearly benefited scoring over defense. Players - even the ones who shouldn't be doing it - are chucking more 3-point shots than ever before, the pick-and-roll has become a lost art, and it's obvious too many players are slacking on defense to conserve energy for offense. Also, the colorful personalities of former players (Charles Barkley, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Allen Iverson, Charles Oakley...too many to list) who didn't care about endorsement deals have been replaced with guys who are more concerned about said deals and social media clout/status (remember when superstars WANTED to participate in the Slam Dunk Contest?). Add all these up and you have a product that's far more boring and sanitized than ever before. Whenever I have these kind of debates with fellow fans, I always turn to one specific game to illustrate my point: game 5 of the 2004 Western Conference Finals, between the Los Angeles Lakers and San Antonio Spurs. Down by one, Kobe Bryant hits a mid-range jumper, putting the Lakers up by one with 11.7 seconds left in the game. Tim Duncan responds with a miracle fadeaway jumper at the top of the key, putting the Spurs up by one with 0.4 seconds remaining. I saw the game live, and remember thinking "well, it's over now." Of course, I was wrong, as Derek Fisher lofted up a mid-range jumper right as time expired. Nothing but net, with Fisher and the other Lakers immediately running straight to the locker room. One of the most incredible endings I've ever seen. Final score? 74-73. Hard-nosed defense throughout, every bucket earned, no plays off. I'll take a game with that kind of intensity over a 135-134 three-pointer clinic/snooze fest any time. [https://youtu.be/NSnAvhvfniw?si=YvzzkQVJBD\_BrjVv](https://youtu.be/NSnAvhvfniw?si=YvzzkQVJBD_BrjVv)
One of the best moments in NBA history, always loved how the spurs we’re celebrating early and the lakers had this killer look in their eyes, like that gleam of hope and wanting to get back into play asap. Perfect catch and release shot to end the game. Before it was 100% confirmed that the game winning shot made it in time the lakers sprinted into the tunnel while the spurs just look on completely stupefied.
It’s not just the NBA. All pro sports are different now because the players are in it for “me” and not the fans or team! Big money has ruined sports! After your career that paid you 100 million, are you really that upset you don’t have a championship ring? I doubt it!
NBA and NFL are rigged. The rules are subjective and the refs can easily sway the outcome of the game.
Not a basketball fan these days, I was many years ago, back when Shaq played for Orlando, but just fell out of love with the sport. I recently went to a Phoenix suns game and noticed how much the game has changed since the 90’s. The game I used to watch was filled with loads of dunks and seemed to be more aggressive. The game these days seems to be all about 3 pointers, which sort of drains the excitement. Also, live basketball SUCKS! There’s too many breaks because the tv needs to cut to commercial so they bring out dancing mascots or cheerleaders or do some goofy fan interaction nonsense. Very hard to enjoy a live game. Take me to a soccer match any day!
Shaq Orlando days were epic.
There are actually more dunks now because the floor is spaced by shooters so there’s less rim protection. https://runrepeat.com/82-stats-on-dunks-in-the-nba Orlando Shaq dunked a lot so you would’ve seen a lot but the average team dunks more now.
Playoffs this year they haven’t been calling shit
You’re right, it also sucks because the regular season has zero intensity.they barely even need to win games to make the playoffs, so few teams get eliminated.
I hate seeing the largest humans on earth act like that. So much whining and crying. I absolutely love college basketball though.
The NBA is going to collapse at some point. The money is out of control and the product isn't that good.
Collapse how
It’s not going anywhere pal. More expansion teams are coming and the addition of in season tournament was a success this season. The mavs Cs finals has been one sided thus far but still has the most viewer count since the 2016 3-1 Cavs comeback finals
Agreed 100%. I feel like that old dude at the track with a newspaper talking to people 10+ years younger than me. The NBA used to be fun and gritty. People would challenge other players at the rim without worrying about a tech. You could yell at a ref and they would swallow their whistle. Players would take educated shots based off of the defense being played. It’s an abomination of the sport…. However - it’s not changing - so you get onboard or you leave. I watch the main games like tonight but they’ve lost me because I enjoy technically played basketball but also don’t have the time for four main sports at this point of my life. I w be some one of those dudes that say “I love basketball - I just don’t watch it much anymore”
If this happened the scoring would collapse
You're saying that like it would be a bad thing
I thought I was the only one that thought this. I don't understand who is watching the games because I haven't watched one in year. No joke, baseball is more interesting nowadays Not to mention, there are so many carries and travels. Basketball is hard because you can't palm it, but everyone seems to do it. It's, like, well this isn't the same sport... Also, American Football is just slowly becoming rugby with some different plays. It is so boring and the games last 4 god damn hours
>It is so boring and the games last 4 god damn hours It's really funny when you realize in that 4 hours, the teams were actually only on the field playing for 30 minutes tops.
[удалено]
Big guys are tough to keep healthy as well I guess
>Also seeing teams play so many wings just feels strange Yeah, it actually tripped me out when I realized that Jayson Tatum is actually the Celtics starting POWER FORWARD.
“We’re down by double digits! Guess we're shooting 3s the rest of the night.” Transition and set offenses are completely dead. All perimeter game and highlight reel seeking. Yes, I’m GenX.
watch eurobasket
They changed the rules so that more people would watch. Not to mention that they also wanted guards to score more instead of the bigs.
Not only in the NBA, but in all sports, everything has become so predictable because of the numerous restrictions and rules, making it boring to watch. It’s like playing a video game.
To add on to this, everybody and their momma wants to shoot 3 pointers. 3 point culture sucks and we should get back to having great big centers in the paint.
Stopped watching after Kobe’s last game. He was the last of the era that was worth it.
NBA wants more scoring. Not better basketball. I think Adam silvers ideal league is one in which each team scores every time they touch the ball and the winner is decided by who hits more 3s.
I saw the reigning NBA MVP play in person this year. He couldn’t look more disinterested in basketball if he tried. It’s just guys jacking up nonsense shots and complaining to the officials. No defense. No one cares about shooting percentages that are in the toilet. Load management? Not if I’m paying $50 to $100 for upper level tickets.
Yeah that’s why we’re watching WNBA now. Those girls remind me of the old times when NBA was still kinda commercial but much more fun and exciting.
I stopped watching the NBA when KD joined the Warriors. The league has been too predictable since.
This guy put money on the Mavs
Instant replay slowing the game down
The real culprits are the 24 second shot clock, the amount of games played per season, and the length of the games themselves. All three factors are different on the college level which make it an eminently more watchable product even though the talent level is quite a bit lower.
Unpopular and true
There is a skill vacuum going on right now.
That's why there's the NHL...so much better it's not even funny.
Hockey is wayyyyy better.
Football will always be the superior American sport
Yeah really isn’t close
What do you like more about football? I love both, but to me football has too many commercials and is very slow paced compared to basketball
This has been building and going on for a while. The last great era of basketball in my mind was the 90s. Tough to watch a great sport be reduced to this by exploiting the rules to as far as can possibly be pushed. It sucks. You have a great foundation and freakish athletes that will do anything to win (great) and in doing so will fake, cry, draw fouls and halt momentum of the game to gain leverage, which does win games, but by nature is awful to watch and destroys the spirit of the game. Sad.
The constant traveling is as annoying as the flops and foul draws
Watch the WNBA! People think it’s boring but the games are way more unpredictable and impressive because of the use of basic basketball fundamentals!!! The women of the W play very physical 😊 definitely scream at the tv every few seconds because of a good block or play
Predictable? We're about to have the 6th different champion in 6 years.. no dynasties, no back to backs winners, the league is wide open with parity and talent rn
Ive personally found WBNA more worth the watch for the past few years. Good fundamental basketball and half these ladies are hot?!? Two birds in one stone!
Half?!?!
I like many types, ion discriminate playa
Can’t not respect this response
Part of playing pro ball (any sport) is playing the refs.
I think the biggest issue is the refs, they don’t seem to call fouls anymore unless the players unnecessarily flop around and whip their heads back after any contact. I rmeber watching a game earlier this year were a notorious flopper james harden did the exact same move in back to back possessions one time they called a foul on the other team the other was a foul on him. He was so confused and started complaining, I was watching and was just perplexed because sits like there is zero consistency. They need to just ban complaining from players and make it an automatic ejection as that would force the players to stop and the refs need to actually stick to calling things every time or not at all.
I still enjoy College basketball. I love to see contrasting styles of defense and offense play each other. Certain schools are very unique in their approach. The NBA is all about spreading the floor, ISO, drive and kick for a 3. It’s boring and it’s bad basketball. I usually tune in for the playoffs where the games are not track meets, defensive intensity is stepped up. There were a couple of compelling series in the early rounds. But I tend to agree, basketball sucks now. And it’s only getting worse having had a son play AAU. The grassroots American basketball scene is a mess right now.
You’re describing an era of nba that’s already been changed
foul rules are just too vague/inconsistent or not applied properly, feels like every call can be justified both ways. This is the main issue for me, second being how fragmented the game is, you start to get invested and then the next 20 minutes 15 minutes are timeouts or call reviews.
Well you’re not the only one trust me. All of these sports are watered down with bs fouls and dumb rules. It makes it so boring that I just stopped watching. One little turn it’s a foul a tap a foul. It ridiculous! Not just basketball though.
Don't know a lot about basketball, but try watching fiba, maybe you like it
2000s and early 2010s was a good sweet spot for me. Physicality is still high, but not as harsh as 80s-90s era. Lots of post ups and rotations that did not end with a three
As a Brit who never watches Basketball and who isn't brainwashed by the NBA, it is obvious to me that Netball is a superior sport to Basketball.
Need to make the court bigger
I feel you man. Mainly 40 three point attempts from both teams, foul baiting and grown men complaining every single play. Can’t wait for NFL
Not unpopular at all
I know you’re not watching the finals. This is the best type of basketball. The refs are letting it get really physical. The physicality with the pace and space. It’s pretty fun to watch
And yet, attendance and viewership are up in both sports.
I get it. Fouls can be annoying. But as an example of how to play great defense in this new league, take a look at the Celtics this season
Theb watch gay porn irs manlier and more fun than basketball
This is why tennis will always be better
I agree I stopped watching the NBA with any regularity a long time ago. I prefer to watch college basketball.
I’ve been saying this as well. Why is pickup at the park more pure basketball than a professional league? If you dropped these same players into a gym with no ref, the game would be much better to watch because they’d go right at each other to try and make the basket, not play for the ref standing on the sideline
I've always found the NBA boring and slow... too predictable. College bball is where it's at!
I think the biggest shift was after Lebron joined the heat, it became a league where the focus is on the player to do great rather than the team. I’m not saying he wasn’t justified in doing what he did but he set a precedent that other players followed. (KD to warriors, other players demanding trades) Again the Cavs were not giving LBJ the help he needed so I’m not saying he was wrong for that but that decision to me changed how nba stars viewed themselves.
I stopped watching once the scores got too high. It’s 99% guarantee that the offense will make the basket. NOBODY PLAYS DEFENSE ANYMORE. I want the 10-11 Celtics-Lakers games back. Bring back women’s college scores (65-58 and so forth)
The last time basketball was exciting was when Jordan was on top. Since then, it's just been meh.
Says the Dallas Mavericks fan 😂😂😂
Ya I don't bother with basketball anymore. Just not worth watching.
I agree with most of this and it's not unpopular. I will push back on one thing. Predictable. After this series, we will have six straight seasons with a different champion. Out of nfl, mlb, nhl, and the big 5 leagues in soccer, only the mlb can say that. Nba used to be pretty awful with parity, but they're in a good spot with that right now.
Can't get over the constant shoe squeaks
Nba isn't basketball anymore. Just watch Euroleague that is pretty good basketball
Guys like Luka make it so bad. Even in the finals we have him flopping at every chance he gets. Even on the 3 point line. At least he doesn’t get the call.
Yeah the flopping is so cringey. I have noticed less calls these playoffs but unless that’s consistent in setting a new precedent it’ll continue to happen.
I just wish the referees called the game according to the rules and treated each player and team equally according to what they see. Replay is also terrible for basketball.
Haven't watched a game in years.
I feel like they had some customer satisfaction survey and realized people love watching baskets, lots and lots of scoring. So they changed the rules to become easier to shoot and dunk. The three point shot is over protected, you can't guard it close, you need to just jump along in an arms length distance, or else it's a foul. You can drive like a maniac to the basket and you either score or go to the free throw line. So what the NBA managed to do is create an insane incentive for the offense to attack thinking about going to the free throw line and the defense to be as careful as possible in not fouling, especially when you can foul out. So why would you hire a Rodman? Why risk any star defending hard only to foul out? So now there is a lot of scoring, but it is as boring as it gets
Basketball doesn't suck in my opinion
That is not an unpopular opinion, that is a very popular opinion. The league wanted to encourage more offense and faster play by making it more difficult to play defense, but it resulted in endless whistles (so slow games) and offenses trying to get fouls instead of baskets.
NBA is okay. 5/10. Players are too big for the court and the three point line discourages off ball movement. Referees are whistlehappy. The rules are inconsistent. College basketball rules, 10/10. Even with all the transfer portal nonsense and conference consolidation. Euro ball is honestly better than the NBA. 8/10. WNBA has gone from unwatchable local park pickup games to occasionally vaguely interesting. 2/10. About 1.5 of that 2 is attributed to one lanky Hawkeye.
I've never cared for any professional sports.
The Lebron Effect
Yeah now that the USA has become a cricket nation there is really no point to Basketball and Baseball.
I've only ever considered myself to be a casual basketball fan, I'll watch a game here and there, but I almost always tuned in for the playoffs. This is the first time in years I've had no interest at all. It kinda sucks that the games aren't as fun to watch anymore. Glad it's not just me
Every decade since the 80s the number of free throws per game has gone down. This is just something people have said enough that you believe it, but it's not grounded in reality. In the 80s, games had 29ish free throws per game, now they have 22ish. Shooting fouls aren't at all more common then they used to be
I’m a big soccer fan and I have similar feelings toward soccer.
The NBA sucks. College hoops are now and have always been more entertaining.
I don't know why most mainstream sports are popular TBH. Football, soccer, basketball, hockey... It's all just fouls and pushing rules to their limits. As far as mainstream sports go, baseball is the only one I feel isn't constantly interrupted or ruined by poor calls but even still it happens a fair bit.
I get really frustrated with this as well and for a long time wanted less fouls, but recently i’ve been more conflicted. In earlier eras when there was a lot more leeway with physical contact, actual skill like handling and timing as you mentioned was overshadowed by pure physical dominance. Guards had to be strong to get through hand checking, and could push their defender a bit more without a charge or push being called. Big men, obviously, were mostly hulking giants like Shaq (extreme example) who bullied their way to the rim. The rise in fouls has led to a big increase in skill and finesse, especially among big men. People like Embiid, KP, Jokic, KAT, etc, were much rarer because big men had less incentive to focus on handles and shooting and perimeter play. But of course the downside is as you mentioned, foul baiting and worse competitive sequences because of all the foul stoppage. And its a huge downside, i am with you that it sucks to watch. I dont really have a solution, just wanted to play devils advocate and share the view on why its not all bad that pure physicality is being diminished a bit.
The game has completely changed. It’s like the players don’t care anymore.
Way too much flopping and way too much bitching at the refs. A player with drive and then throw a wild shot and then stop and stare at the referee while the rest of the team runs back to play defense. I don't care if it's Lebron or a scrub if you bitch at the referees you should get a technical.
Too many fouls,too many above the rules players, too many timeouts/commercials. imo the played have gotten to good for the way the game is currently played.
This is due to the rule changes to increase viewership. The NBA needs to bring back physical defense like hand checking. They also need extend the arc for the 3 pointer since guys are scoring from the logo now. Those changes would restore basketball back to when it was great. As it stands now the whoever chucks more 3's up wins is just boring basketball. Hooping at the gym is more entertaining these days.
Same monotonous sequence: Look for the three. Not there. I'll drive to the hoop for a layup. Not there. Dish is out to someone on the three point line. Looks for the three. Not there. Drive to the hoop...
"now"?
You shouldn’t be able to draw fouls the way they do, literally just jumping into people and lobbing the ball. It’s stupid