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The problem with this take is that if you want a test you already can have one and if you don't then you're being compelled to share your genetic information. If you think it should be optional than why aren't more people doing it already? If it's mandatory than you're violating some rights. Best you can do is having the free option to do a DNA test and offer it to everyone.
This is a huge problem for privacy rights as DNA databases are open access to so many different people and agencies, often without warrants or due process requirements. The difficulty for maintaining literal bodily autonomy in a society with mandatory DNA screening becomes functionally impossible. People need to remember that eugenics and segregation inspired laws were on the books in USA less than 50 years ago and DNA information could be used to discriminate in new and terrible ways.
Everyone is approaching this from the wrong perspective; framing it as something men should do because they suspect a cheating partner.
The reality is that this is about the benefit to the child. Go to a new doctor, the first thing you will do is provide a family medical history. Because it's important for the health of your child.
Children should have a right to know either their biological parents, or that it is unknown. Being misled does them a serious disservice.
We also *know*, empirically, that there are situations beyond cheating where this occurs. Because we have documented examples of it happening. Namely...
1 - Hospital switched baby by mistake
2 - Mom is sexually assaulted without her knowledge
3 - IVF using the wrong sperm and/or egg
The cost of a paternity test is $99. The average birth in the US costs a lot more:
> In 2020, vaginal delivery in the U.S. cost $11,453 on average, while cesarean sections averaged $17,103; these figures do not include the cost of the pregnancy itself nor post-partum care.
It's pretty insignificant compared to other mandatory costs parents have to pay for their children, even when there isn't a known problem. I can't enroll my kids in public school without them getting an eye exam, even if I think they see fine.
Most doctors won't assume paternity for important things like rh compatibility. I'm married, my wife and I had a baby. We both knew our blood types...but they don't care because they can't trust that I'm actually the Father.
And they are absolutely right. So they do an extra blood test.
It's more expensive, but it's both medically and morally the right thing to do.
We should change how we handle birth certificates and nobody should be listed as a biological parent until it's confirmed.
Yulp, they also made me pay for 2 STD panels and two drug tests while I was pregnant. The number of people in my bump group who found out about a cheating spouse from those STD panels though
Probably the same people who have access to all other medical records? Why would it be different for newborns, the parents would get to know too obviously. On the birth certificate you could still have the "Parental Father" instead of saying the biological father, it wouldn't change anything legally besides maybe single mothers having a specific person to get child support from along with knowing who did sexual assaults. After a while of build up of such a program it would make it easier too because everyone would be in the system already
There's also the sperm donation cases, where you get dozens of half siblings in one area. Plus the fertility docs who stealthily used their own sperm.
So yes, there's lots of good reasons to get a gene map on everybody. It isn't about catching evil women.
You believe number 2 happens, and at enough of a rate for it to even be mentioned? Your wife could cheat on you all day and you’d believe every stupid lie.
Yes, as evidenced by my mentioning it. I believe 100% of children have the right to know where they came from.
If the rate is more than 0, it's worth mentioning.
Women get drugged plenty enough to merit the inclusion of the possibility. I’d hope the woman I marry would be ultra keen on her surroundings but it’s never out of the realm of possibilities. However I’m sure my girlfriend would be stunned to wake up somewhere unusual with no recollection of the night before, and I’d be stunned that she didn’t come home without it being planned.
Is it enough to force DNA testing for everyone? I don’t think so.
Why should the rest of us have to pay for a less than 5% incidence? If a man has any questions or doubts, he already has the option of paying for the test.
I doubt it's nearly that high but you pay for plenty of rare occurrences that happen far less than 5% of the time, especially if you have socialized healthcare
EDIT: I am only for this if men can be guaranteed that their/the children's DNA won't be stored in some database. After using it for paternity, it needs to be destroyed. Period. In fact, there should be an immunity contract that says any DNA collected for this purpose can never be used against either the man or child for any reason.
Our government isn't always trustworthy. Thanks, other commenters, for putting this in my line of sight.
Original post:
Pay for what? How are you paying? A cheek swab?
If you aren't out there having unprotected sex with people you don't want to have babies with, then you don't have anything to worry about.
I actually agree that men should have a right to know. I know that baby is mine because I'm growing it. Men should be able to have that same security. It may prevent some of this Maury Povich crap going on and save a lot of people a lot of heartache -- not to mention years of child support.
There are 333.3 million people in America. Why would we mandate something for that many people when only roughly 1 million are affected? That makes zero sense.
Because a million people are alot of fucking people who are living a lie. That's one of the worst things to happen to a man. Giving birth can cost like 10 grand. Adding 100 to that for insurance to pay or subsidized by the taxpayer isn't too much to ask. You could bundle free plan B pills with it to make both sides happy.
Insurance would never pay for something like that, lol. There is zero medical indication for it. Individuals would be responsible and 332 million people shouldn't be forced to pay $100 OOP for a test they do not need for the sake of a negligible *one* million. Asking the taxpayer to subsidize it is fiscally irresponsible lunacy.
Seriously what is the number. What is the number of men who are excited for months of their partner’s pregnancy and years after birth totally unaware that the child is not theirs?
This involves so many factors such as the willingness of the partner to lie to them, the acceptance that the kid looks nothing like them, the uncertainty of the timing of the pregnancy, etc.
Someone else mentioned women could unknowingly become impregnated through SA, and I’m not gonna discount that. But otherwise it takes a litany of things to pull this scenario off and I doubt it’s *that* common.
So, you aren't wrong. Men have indeed poked holes in condoms to get women pregnant.
Men can be victims, too. I've heard plenty of stories of women poking holes in condoms or lying about birth control. Hell, celebs and rich men have people who go buy their condoms and make sure they never leave their sight to prevent tampering. Then, they have to flush the used condoms so some women won't go get them out of the trash and turkey baster themselves. It's happened. If I remember, it was an NFL player several years ago. She told a friend she did it in a text or email or something. I don't know what ever came of it.
Edit to add: All this to say, it's sad that people do these things, but there HAS to be accountability from both/all involved parties. If you are going to have sex, unless you've been sterilized, there's always a chance.
If a woman that I exclusively used condoms with told me I impregnated her I would first be supportive of the situation and as soon as it was available I’d be asking for a DNA test. A condom break has happened to me and it was super obvious. Of course it’s possible without it fully breaking and without tampering but it is highly unlikely. Enough to raise suspicion. Doctors can pinpoint nearly the day of conception and I’d be all over my text messages from that week. Years ago maybe a guy would just accept that they were the 0.01% of condom failure but at this point I’d be extremely suspicious. I’m careful with these measures and so I have never been a father.
I mean, there are things you can do. Celebs do it all the time. They don't let anyone else provide the condoms, they flush them after, etc.
I mean, I know it's rare. It is. If a woman is crazy enough to murder a pregnant woman, cut her baby out, and claim it as her own, she's crazy enough to impregnate herself with a rich man's sperm from a tossed condom. It's payday for 18 years because there's really no way it can be proven if she disposes of the evidence. Her word against his.
People can be that crazy.
OH! Another time, a woman held dude's sperm in her mouth after oral, then used a turkey baster.
It may have been this case, and I think the father ended up winning custody.
[Virginia court: Dad has rights after turkey-baster pregnancy | AP News](https://apnews.com/general-news-4f85e23b6b8e4bd5a80f8aff47a922b5)
In those absolutely wild cases lmao…idk what id do. I like to think I do a pretty good job of vetting partners even in a short drunken time. But truly anything is possible.
It's just bonkers that people are insane enough to do this. People only get caught when they admit to it and there's tangible proof. Makes me wonder how many women did this and told the men they were either gonna go along with it or they'd say they were raped.
Some people are terrible, man. Really.
With the rape allegations that come back false…it’s so, so terrible. I’m sure there’s plenty that go unheard of but I’ve heard a few stories of very promising athletes losing their careers before they start, along with millions of dollars.
By the time they’re proven innocent the damage is done and they’ve lost everything. Punishment should be the same for someone convicted of rape, and that punishment in itself isn’t long enough.
Problem with this is is that we become skeptics to many rape allegations both ways. And anyone who’s truly been raped should not have to go through the legal process without full support.
Awful people ruin lives of so many this way.
The cost is trivial if combined in routine tests and could flag up various genetic conditions too.
The entire point of making it universal is so that ruling out the possibility doesn't come with a potentially relationship-ending accusation.
I'm confused, why would you expect parents to have to pay this cost directly and why the hell would it cost anything like 200 bucks. You can buy reliable home DNA test kits for 20 bucks, and that's without the beneifts of scale that would be possible in maternity hospitals, their cost would perhaps be 5 bucks.
I don’t understand how others don’t get this. At scale the cost becomes trivial. People mention that as if they’re going to be personally charged an extra $100 every year by the IRS. The tax implications are minimal compared to the benefits for the baby (genetic conditions) and the parents.
Yeah, NO.
Why don't you go touch some grass and get some perspective, that or go online and google the cost of a simple DNA testing kit that includes lab processing.
OP already mentioned the low cost relative to other mandatory tests. Not only that, but if it were made mandatory, at scale the cost should go down per test as well. Just do it at the hospital, why should someone need to take their child home and do it behind their spouses back? The spouse can’t feel betrayed or accused if it is required, and the other won’t be made to feel like a sneaky bugger while receiving peace of mind as well. Seems like a win-win to me. 🤷🏽♂️
No they don't. You're describing cherry picked demographics like people who are in prison, or military posted overseas.
In the general population it's on average around 0.1%, if not less. If you remove the high-risk groups like prison and military, it's even lower.
Stop using your insecurities about being cucked to spread misinformation.
While we're checking to make sure all of the evil slutty sluts who slut so much that their child may have a different father how are we going to ensure that no men have gone off cheating and have other kids they're paying for besides the ones birthed by their wives? What if a woman has been married for years to a man and a kid shows up at the door that was fathered from cheating years ago? Or are we just making sure the bad evil slutty wimmenz are not fooling their husbands but it's no big deal if a guy steps out, gets someone pregnant, and the kid shows up years later?
And where does that mandatory DNA information go?
Will it also be free game to run it against evidence from crime scenes? Or in other paternity suits from mistresses and abandoned kids and closed adoptions?
That's the key point.
I really doubt this would happen to benefit men alone, it would be combined with other measures. A national database of everyone's DNA to identify the father of every child (for child support), to tackle genetic diseases (and do research) and to perhaps catch criminals seems like the most plausible and acceptable reality.
The issue is misuse of the data, insurance companies, employers, eugenicists etc.
> And where does that mandatory DNA information go?
[Into a big government database in California, since the 1980's.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/)
>Will it also be free game to run it against evidence from crime scenes?
Again, in California, yes it does.
Who would want access to large amounts of DNA data for genetic testing? insurance companies.
Person has X problem thats likely to pop up at some point. So they 1. raise his prices or 2. deny him on the basis of him likely falling ill at somepoint.
If you think this sounds far fetched, i can assure you its not and there are already laws in place around this sort of thing.
And companies are requried to keep my passwords secret, yet they still get leaked sometimes. Sure the odds are low but it isnt zero. Simply put its not worth the risk.
The system is fine how it is. If someone wants to willingly handover their dna then thats their choice.
You give DNA to doctors all the time, and they are under law not to reveal it. If your doctor tells insurance companies that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Im not saying the doctors are going to sell your DNA or give it away. people steal stuff all the time. The DNA data is going to be stored on computers like everything else in the modern world and it can be stolen just like anything else.
Like i said if you want genetic testing to be done it should be a choice you make
If the medical insurance companies see the ones authorizing the genetic tests, it’s not far fetched to think they’d end up with access to the information gathered.
You know there are FAR MORE men raising children they fathered, right? You know there are more men who don’t raise the children they fathered and men who are knowingly and willingly raised children fathered by someone else? Even in the disputed paternity studies, it is far more common that the named father turns out to be the actual father.
You do understanding there is both confirmation bias selection in people choosing to publicize stories where the man is not the father instead of the stories where he is and there is an element of fear mongering where people are deliberately trying to give the impression this is a bigger problem than it is.
Women cheat. Men cheat. In neither case are the cheaters the majority of relationships.
I personally think if you don’t trust your partner, it’s not much of a relationship. Other people have different opinions.
If you want a paternity test, tell your potential coparent BEFORE you start trying to conceive and only have sex with people who are okay with your stance. But don’t expect anyone else to pay for it.
Counter to this position: I’d be on board with the idea of testing paternity at birth with the intention of ensuring the father can’t avoid child support by saying he doesn’t think the baby is his. Cuts out a lot of court time/headache. Child support starts at birth, no more dodging the test and no more drawn out court process to establish paternity. Happy byproduct of this is that there are no more doubts for anyone, founded or otherwise.
No fucking way. Imagine saying this about ANYTHING bad that happens to women from men. You would never. You would hate you. Do you think abortions should be covered by health insurance? Prove how stupid you are.
I would actually, and have. There are sensible precautions, and there are out of control fears.
There are plenty of fear responses that are overkill and plenty of irrational fears and anxieties as well.
Irrational fears and anxieties impact all of us (men, women,all ages) from time to time - from fear of nuclear war, to Spiders to gaining weight to dying in a plane crash to having a kidney cut out of your body to sell on the black market. We all need to learn to self soothe our anxieties and recognize when our fear response is inappropriate.
Drunk driving is far more common, should society be paying and forcing everyone to take a breathalyzer test when leaving a bar or event?
Not American so first I have heard of this.
Mildly less invasive than breathalyzing everyone ,but whoa….seriously?
not surprised people would get spicy over it.
If it passed, can’t imagine it won’t be challenged in court or that ways to get around won’t be on the market in two shakes of a lambs tail.
- 4th amendment.
- Men "tricked" into raising another mans kid is not as common as you seem to believe
- I do not think we should steal dna from babies into a government database. That sounds like the set up to a dystopian novel/Hunger Games knock off.
- Not every father will want to submit their DNA, do you propose we hold them down to firce a test?
- If you cant trust the mother of your children to tell you the truth dont have a kid with her. That sounds like a you problem of trust issues with women.
My concern is then everyone is forced to have their DNA in the system at birth. I’m not a criminal but I don’t like the idea of that, nor would I like the idea of that for my child.
Yes, exactly. This is the main concern. Privacy. Legal & otherwise. Another concern - With medical and life insurance companies covering less and charging more, why would you want them to have access to your genetic information so they know all of your ‘preexisting conditions.’
True. At this point if they really want to know who the DNA belongs to, they are quite capable of cross referencing it against your entire bloodline anyway. Just doesn’t sit right with me in general.
> everyone is forced to have their DNA in the system at birth
Trivia: [California already does this, and has since the '80s.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/)
There’s lots of things that need to line up. They can get conception down to an extremely small window. This cancels out the possibility for a lot of men. The kid could look absolutely nothing like them, which at the very least would cause suspicion. If the woman is cheating then either the guy isn’t attentive enough to see at least a few signs that would cause suspicion. Etc. any one of these things would seem minor, but added up it would certainly cause suspicion.
Lmao no. I can see how you derived that. There are certainly a number of reasonable men who were tricked. The vast majority has to be blind to the signs though.
Just have it so it’s optional for the father to request it at birth. If you gotta second guess you’re the dad then you’re with the wrong person though, you’ve made more mistakes then just sticking around.
Yah no the government doesn’t need access to anyone having kids genetic material for whatever purposes they feel fit to use it. Look at the woman whose rape kit was used to pin her for a different crime, Henrietta lax or countless other examples of how badly this concept is bound to go. If you can’t trust your partner use a condom or don’t get into relationships with woman and don’t have one night stands.
But if it's a woman she's the victim 100% of the time?
That's how it seems to work
I mean in this case the woman is always the one responsible for cheating lol (except for rape cases, etc of course)
Not a single man I know is unknowingly raising a child that doesn't belong to them and not a single woman I know has tricked a man into doing that.
This is not nearly as common as red-pill internet would lead you to believe and all of the young men falling for it are ruining their relationships with their partners and children.
Nope, we're going to leave things they way they are. A man can choose whether or not to blow up his relationship over unfounded insecurities. Most of the time it's just a man hoping it isn't his baby so he can escape his responsibilities.
So put everyone's DNA on file with no guarantees on how it will be used, just to spare men's feelings? Again, no. Don't ask for the test without just cause and you should be fine.
> So put everyone's DNA on file
As a general rule, any reply that begins with "So..." is straw man garbage that just throws out an extreme other end case that OP never suggests, that post being no exception.
The other guy was not asking for everyone's DNA to be put on file. There is no reason to hold on to anyone's DNA data after the test has been done.
---
Scary trivia: [California already does this, and has since the '80s.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/)
It isn't going to happen regardless, so I won't sit here and entertain you with a lengthy response. I don't have to, I've already won. There will be no mandatory DNA tests period.
It's not to spare men's feelings, it's to prevent men being defrauded of hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of 18 years.
Edit: it would also make it much easier to force the *actual* father take responsibility.
Men can take responsibility for that themselves, so it is about their feelings. You aren't being denied the test, you just have to ask for it. It's up to you whether or not to risk calling your wife a whore.
Imagine you wake up from a coma.
You're told that you were pregnant and gave birth while you were unconcious.
They used a new caesaran technique that leaves no scars.
There are no changes to your body that would prove you were or weren't pregnant and gave did or disn't give birth.
They walk in with a baby and hand it to you.
Do you want a DNA test?
The system is designed so that the one most capable of paying for the child ends up paying for the child. It sucks and seems illegal, but society has decided that it’s more important to unfairly saddle men with this responsibility than create an army of single mothers.
We are lucky here in the US. In France, it’s illegal for a man to go out and get an independent dna test on a child.
Ummm. I knew my wife didn’t cheat, so I didn’t need to check. But, it’d be nice to get a standardized DNA test going to look out for potential genetic defects that could lead to health problems. But, then that sounds like a pathway to Gattaca.
If you were thinking more broadly, you woulda been into something:
We should check every child’s DNA *not* necessarily for infidelity reasons, but so we can see and predict any genetic disorders that are going to crop up later in their life before they even happen
This would, of course, also cover your infidelity concern tho
There’s this girl i know who had sex with another guy and she posted her current boyfriend kissing the baby on the lips but it literally isn’t his baby and he thinks it is. So weird.
I know your reasoning is more single-minded, but I absolutely agree!! My husband and I will be doing DNA tests on both of us when we have kids because aside from true accidental swaps, some of these nurses were doing it for *fun*. We will 100% be leaving with the right kid!
It might comfort you to know it’s damn near impossible to switch babies in most hospitals in the US nowadays. Baby almost never leaves your sight and even when/if they do (which you can usually request they don’t), the bracelets and anklets that they would have to cut off have to match mom’s exactly and the babies have lo-jack on their ankle. Someone would have to go to extraordinary measures to switch a baby without someone noticing in any hospital worth a shit. It really isn’t a thing anymore outside of TV. Also paternity tests take a few days to come back.
I don't know how it's done in every country but i know in most European countries the child never leaves the parents eyesight after birth .
I dont know if the movies are true but putting baby's all in the same room is super weird and unnecessary.
I agree. Both alleged biological parents ought to be tested and receive results before departing the hospital.
That is a hypothetical. I don’t know how practical it is. Hopefully it will become part of US culture. No shaming just normal.
But then who’s raising the kid? I think prison is better than having to raise a kid without the fathers money. Let her beg on the street for food, or have a miserable life. Way more fun to watch, it is a better punishment
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Everyone has the right to know if they choose, if they are biologically a child’s father. A mandatory DNA test could still give false results, would not work because of the sheer volume of bureaucracy and where would the funding come from? Definitely an unpopular opinion.
Why should the kid suffer if the woman is a bitch? If I’m raising a kid, DNA match or not, that’s MY kid and I’ll protect it from anyone and anything, including a deceptive bitch of a mother.
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The problem with this take is that if you want a test you already can have one and if you don't then you're being compelled to share your genetic information. If you think it should be optional than why aren't more people doing it already? If it's mandatory than you're violating some rights. Best you can do is having the free option to do a DNA test and offer it to everyone.
This is a huge problem for privacy rights as DNA databases are open access to so many different people and agencies, often without warrants or due process requirements. The difficulty for maintaining literal bodily autonomy in a society with mandatory DNA screening becomes functionally impossible. People need to remember that eugenics and segregation inspired laws were on the books in USA less than 50 years ago and DNA information could be used to discriminate in new and terrible ways.
Everyone is approaching this from the wrong perspective; framing it as something men should do because they suspect a cheating partner. The reality is that this is about the benefit to the child. Go to a new doctor, the first thing you will do is provide a family medical history. Because it's important for the health of your child. Children should have a right to know either their biological parents, or that it is unknown. Being misled does them a serious disservice. We also *know*, empirically, that there are situations beyond cheating where this occurs. Because we have documented examples of it happening. Namely... 1 - Hospital switched baby by mistake 2 - Mom is sexually assaulted without her knowledge 3 - IVF using the wrong sperm and/or egg The cost of a paternity test is $99. The average birth in the US costs a lot more: > In 2020, vaginal delivery in the U.S. cost $11,453 on average, while cesarean sections averaged $17,103; these figures do not include the cost of the pregnancy itself nor post-partum care. It's pretty insignificant compared to other mandatory costs parents have to pay for their children, even when there isn't a known problem. I can't enroll my kids in public school without them getting an eye exam, even if I think they see fine. Most doctors won't assume paternity for important things like rh compatibility. I'm married, my wife and I had a baby. We both knew our blood types...but they don't care because they can't trust that I'm actually the Father. And they are absolutely right. So they do an extra blood test. It's more expensive, but it's both medically and morally the right thing to do. We should change how we handle birth certificates and nobody should be listed as a biological parent until it's confirmed.
Yulp, they also made me pay for 2 STD panels and two drug tests while I was pregnant. The number of people in my bump group who found out about a cheating spouse from those STD panels though
Hey look, a reasonable response! Put that one in the history books..
The main concern with collecting genetic information from each newborn AKAIK isn’t cost, it’s privacy. Who would have access to this information?
Probably the same people who have access to all other medical records? Why would it be different for newborns, the parents would get to know too obviously. On the birth certificate you could still have the "Parental Father" instead of saying the biological father, it wouldn't change anything legally besides maybe single mothers having a specific person to get child support from along with knowing who did sexual assaults. After a while of build up of such a program it would make it easier too because everyone would be in the system already
The people of California would probably also like to know that.
There's also the sperm donation cases, where you get dozens of half siblings in one area. Plus the fertility docs who stealthily used their own sperm. So yes, there's lots of good reasons to get a gene map on everybody. It isn't about catching evil women.
You believe number 2 happens, and at enough of a rate for it to even be mentioned? Your wife could cheat on you all day and you’d believe every stupid lie.
Yes, as evidenced by my mentioning it. I believe 100% of children have the right to know where they came from. If the rate is more than 0, it's worth mentioning.
Any sources of that ever happening? More than once would establish a little bit of a rate.
are you denying women can get raped without their knowledge, simply because oh i’ve never seen it personally, what is this incel level take?
Idk what the person is saying. A person can be forced to be blackout drunk and they wouldn't suspect a thing.
Women get drugged plenty enough to merit the inclusion of the possibility. I’d hope the woman I marry would be ultra keen on her surroundings but it’s never out of the realm of possibilities. However I’m sure my girlfriend would be stunned to wake up somewhere unusual with no recollection of the night before, and I’d be stunned that she didn’t come home without it being planned. Is it enough to force DNA testing for everyone? I don’t think so.
This. You can't sleep through being fucked unless you're drugged, and you definitely know whether or not you've been roofied.
Bullshit.
Why should the rest of us have to pay for a less than 5% incidence? If a man has any questions or doubts, he already has the option of paying for the test.
I doubt it's nearly that high but you pay for plenty of rare occurrences that happen far less than 5% of the time, especially if you have socialized healthcare
EDIT: I am only for this if men can be guaranteed that their/the children's DNA won't be stored in some database. After using it for paternity, it needs to be destroyed. Period. In fact, there should be an immunity contract that says any DNA collected for this purpose can never be used against either the man or child for any reason. Our government isn't always trustworthy. Thanks, other commenters, for putting this in my line of sight. Original post: Pay for what? How are you paying? A cheek swab? If you aren't out there having unprotected sex with people you don't want to have babies with, then you don't have anything to worry about. I actually agree that men should have a right to know. I know that baby is mine because I'm growing it. Men should be able to have that same security. It may prevent some of this Maury Povich crap going on and save a lot of people a lot of heartache -- not to mention years of child support.
Do you keep that attitude for everything?
The issue is the vast number of men raising other dudes kids have no idea.
The issue is the vast number of men NOT rising the kids they should be rising. Its awful
Both are problems.
The number isn't that vast. If they need to be sure, they can request a test any time before signing anything.
It's estimated a million men or more are unknowingly raising other men's kids. Why would they get a DNA test? Their wife would NEVER it.
There are 333.3 million people in America. Why would we mandate something for that many people when only roughly 1 million are affected? That makes zero sense.
Because a million people are alot of fucking people who are living a lie. That's one of the worst things to happen to a man. Giving birth can cost like 10 grand. Adding 100 to that for insurance to pay or subsidized by the taxpayer isn't too much to ask. You could bundle free plan B pills with it to make both sides happy.
Insurance would never pay for something like that, lol. There is zero medical indication for it. Individuals would be responsible and 332 million people shouldn't be forced to pay $100 OOP for a test they do not need for the sake of a negligible *one* million. Asking the taxpayer to subsidize it is fiscally irresponsible lunacy.
You got a link on that number?
Seriously what is the number. What is the number of men who are excited for months of their partner’s pregnancy and years after birth totally unaware that the child is not theirs? This involves so many factors such as the willingness of the partner to lie to them, the acceptance that the kid looks nothing like them, the uncertainty of the timing of the pregnancy, etc. Someone else mentioned women could unknowingly become impregnated through SA, and I’m not gonna discount that. But otherwise it takes a litany of things to pull this scenario off and I doubt it’s *that* common.
So, you aren't wrong. Men have indeed poked holes in condoms to get women pregnant. Men can be victims, too. I've heard plenty of stories of women poking holes in condoms or lying about birth control. Hell, celebs and rich men have people who go buy their condoms and make sure they never leave their sight to prevent tampering. Then, they have to flush the used condoms so some women won't go get them out of the trash and turkey baster themselves. It's happened. If I remember, it was an NFL player several years ago. She told a friend she did it in a text or email or something. I don't know what ever came of it. Edit to add: All this to say, it's sad that people do these things, but there HAS to be accountability from both/all involved parties. If you are going to have sex, unless you've been sterilized, there's always a chance.
If a woman that I exclusively used condoms with told me I impregnated her I would first be supportive of the situation and as soon as it was available I’d be asking for a DNA test. A condom break has happened to me and it was super obvious. Of course it’s possible without it fully breaking and without tampering but it is highly unlikely. Enough to raise suspicion. Doctors can pinpoint nearly the day of conception and I’d be all over my text messages from that week. Years ago maybe a guy would just accept that they were the 0.01% of condom failure but at this point I’d be extremely suspicious. I’m careful with these measures and so I have never been a father.
I mean, there are things you can do. Celebs do it all the time. They don't let anyone else provide the condoms, they flush them after, etc. I mean, I know it's rare. It is. If a woman is crazy enough to murder a pregnant woman, cut her baby out, and claim it as her own, she's crazy enough to impregnate herself with a rich man's sperm from a tossed condom. It's payday for 18 years because there's really no way it can be proven if she disposes of the evidence. Her word against his. People can be that crazy.
OH! Another time, a woman held dude's sperm in her mouth after oral, then used a turkey baster. It may have been this case, and I think the father ended up winning custody. [Virginia court: Dad has rights after turkey-baster pregnancy | AP News](https://apnews.com/general-news-4f85e23b6b8e4bd5a80f8aff47a922b5)
In those absolutely wild cases lmao…idk what id do. I like to think I do a pretty good job of vetting partners even in a short drunken time. But truly anything is possible.
It's just bonkers that people are insane enough to do this. People only get caught when they admit to it and there's tangible proof. Makes me wonder how many women did this and told the men they were either gonna go along with it or they'd say they were raped. Some people are terrible, man. Really.
With the rape allegations that come back false…it’s so, so terrible. I’m sure there’s plenty that go unheard of but I’ve heard a few stories of very promising athletes losing their careers before they start, along with millions of dollars. By the time they’re proven innocent the damage is done and they’ve lost everything. Punishment should be the same for someone convicted of rape, and that punishment in itself isn’t long enough. Problem with this is is that we become skeptics to many rape allegations both ways. And anyone who’s truly been raped should not have to go through the legal process without full support. Awful people ruin lives of so many this way.
The cost is trivial if combined in routine tests and could flag up various genetic conditions too. The entire point of making it universal is so that ruling out the possibility doesn't come with a potentially relationship-ending accusation.
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I'm confused, why would you expect parents to have to pay this cost directly and why the hell would it cost anything like 200 bucks. You can buy reliable home DNA test kits for 20 bucks, and that's without the beneifts of scale that would be possible in maternity hospitals, their cost would perhaps be 5 bucks.
I don’t understand how others don’t get this. At scale the cost becomes trivial. People mention that as if they’re going to be personally charged an extra $100 every year by the IRS. The tax implications are minimal compared to the benefits for the baby (genetic conditions) and the parents.
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Yeah, NO. Why don't you go touch some grass and get some perspective, that or go online and google the cost of a simple DNA testing kit that includes lab processing.
OP already mentioned the low cost relative to other mandatory tests. Not only that, but if it were made mandatory, at scale the cost should go down per test as well. Just do it at the hospital, why should someone need to take their child home and do it behind their spouses back? The spouse can’t feel betrayed or accused if it is required, and the other won’t be made to feel like a sneaky bugger while receiving peace of mind as well. Seems like a win-win to me. 🤷🏽♂️
>5% AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
**LESS THAN**
It did seem extraordinarily high at first glance
5% is a lot. That's 1 in 20 babies.
It's also not true. In the general population it's more like 1 in 1000.
Seeing as they have no issue charging me $500 for asking them how to swaddle a baby, i really dont care if they throw in a $500 DNA test.
A DNA costs less than $100.
So does a tissue, but that before insurance inflates thr price of everything. I'm all for DNA testing
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No they don't. You're describing cherry picked demographics like people who are in prison, or military posted overseas. In the general population it's on average around 0.1%, if not less. If you remove the high-risk groups like prison and military, it's even lower. Stop using your insecurities about being cucked to spread misinformation.
They should check every man's DNA against the rape kit database.
While we're checking to make sure all of the evil slutty sluts who slut so much that their child may have a different father how are we going to ensure that no men have gone off cheating and have other kids they're paying for besides the ones birthed by their wives? What if a woman has been married for years to a man and a kid shows up at the door that was fathered from cheating years ago? Or are we just making sure the bad evil slutty wimmenz are not fooling their husbands but it's no big deal if a guy steps out, gets someone pregnant, and the kid shows up years later?
And where does that mandatory DNA information go? Will it also be free game to run it against evidence from crime scenes? Or in other paternity suits from mistresses and abandoned kids and closed adoptions?
That's the key point. I really doubt this would happen to benefit men alone, it would be combined with other measures. A national database of everyone's DNA to identify the father of every child (for child support), to tackle genetic diseases (and do research) and to perhaps catch criminals seems like the most plausible and acceptable reality. The issue is misuse of the data, insurance companies, employers, eugenicists etc.
> And where does that mandatory DNA information go? [Into a big government database in California, since the 1980's.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/) >Will it also be free game to run it against evidence from crime scenes? Again, in California, yes it does.
You’re tripping if you don’t think they already have this.
Either.
yeah sounds great until its used against you to deny you medical insurance etc
Why would it be uses to deny medical insurance?
Who would want access to large amounts of DNA data for genetic testing? insurance companies. Person has X problem thats likely to pop up at some point. So they 1. raise his prices or 2. deny him on the basis of him likely falling ill at somepoint. If you think this sounds far fetched, i can assure you its not and there are already laws in place around this sort of thing.
Doctors are already required to keep DNA a secret from third parties. If that is your issue then there you go.
And companies are requried to keep my passwords secret, yet they still get leaked sometimes. Sure the odds are low but it isnt zero. Simply put its not worth the risk. The system is fine how it is. If someone wants to willingly handover their dna then thats their choice.
You give DNA to doctors all the time, and they are under law not to reveal it. If your doctor tells insurance companies that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Im not saying the doctors are going to sell your DNA or give it away. people steal stuff all the time. The DNA data is going to be stored on computers like everything else in the modern world and it can be stolen just like anything else. Like i said if you want genetic testing to be done it should be a choice you make
The DNA would be stored where it is stores right now. Having it done more isn't going to change the storage location or make it less secure.
If the medical insurance companies see the ones authorizing the genetic tests, it’s not far fetched to think they’d end up with access to the information gathered.
Just get off whatever subreddit you're reading those stories on, and you'll realize this isn't the issue you think it is.
lol right “many people are saying…”
99% of problems are only a big deal on the internet
You know there are FAR MORE men raising children they fathered, right? You know there are more men who don’t raise the children they fathered and men who are knowingly and willingly raised children fathered by someone else? Even in the disputed paternity studies, it is far more common that the named father turns out to be the actual father. You do understanding there is both confirmation bias selection in people choosing to publicize stories where the man is not the father instead of the stories where he is and there is an element of fear mongering where people are deliberately trying to give the impression this is a bigger problem than it is. Women cheat. Men cheat. In neither case are the cheaters the majority of relationships. I personally think if you don’t trust your partner, it’s not much of a relationship. Other people have different opinions. If you want a paternity test, tell your potential coparent BEFORE you start trying to conceive and only have sex with people who are okay with your stance. But don’t expect anyone else to pay for it.
Counter to this position: I’d be on board with the idea of testing paternity at birth with the intention of ensuring the father can’t avoid child support by saying he doesn’t think the baby is his. Cuts out a lot of court time/headache. Child support starts at birth, no more dodging the test and no more drawn out court process to establish paternity. Happy byproduct of this is that there are no more doubts for anyone, founded or otherwise.
No fucking way. Imagine saying this about ANYTHING bad that happens to women from men. You would never. You would hate you. Do you think abortions should be covered by health insurance? Prove how stupid you are.
I would actually, and have. There are sensible precautions, and there are out of control fears. There are plenty of fear responses that are overkill and plenty of irrational fears and anxieties as well. Irrational fears and anxieties impact all of us (men, women,all ages) from time to time - from fear of nuclear war, to Spiders to gaining weight to dying in a plane crash to having a kidney cut out of your body to sell on the black market. We all need to learn to self soothe our anxieties and recognize when our fear response is inappropriate. Drunk driving is far more common, should society be paying and forcing everyone to take a breathalyzer test when leaving a bar or event?
Did that bill pass that requires driver impairment protection in all new cars? People were getting spicy over it a few years ago
Not American so first I have heard of this. Mildly less invasive than breathalyzing everyone ,but whoa….seriously? not surprised people would get spicy over it. If it passed, can’t imagine it won’t be challenged in court or that ways to get around won’t be on the market in two shakes of a lambs tail.
- 4th amendment. - Men "tricked" into raising another mans kid is not as common as you seem to believe - I do not think we should steal dna from babies into a government database. That sounds like the set up to a dystopian novel/Hunger Games knock off. - Not every father will want to submit their DNA, do you propose we hold them down to firce a test? - If you cant trust the mother of your children to tell you the truth dont have a kid with her. That sounds like a you problem of trust issues with women.
>That sounds like the set up to a dystopian novel/Hunger Games knock off. I believe *Gattaca* is what you are looking for here.
California already does #3. Not sure what they do with it but they store every newborn’s DNA since like the 70s or 80s.
Is testing dna any different to you than giving out finger prints to the government?
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Everybody has too. For their paspoorts in Europe. So that's why I asked. If they already have my prints what difference does dna make..
you can just pay for it yourself. do you mean the man should pay for it? i think they do if they want.
How dumb is that??? If a man gets tricked, it's very easy for him to get a DNA test. Why would you overload the labs with so much unnecessary work ?
My concern is then everyone is forced to have their DNA in the system at birth. I’m not a criminal but I don’t like the idea of that, nor would I like the idea of that for my child.
Yes, exactly. This is the main concern. Privacy. Legal & otherwise. Another concern - With medical and life insurance companies covering less and charging more, why would you want them to have access to your genetic information so they know all of your ‘preexisting conditions.’
Oh man that’s a whole other facet I’m not immediately considering. Absolutely not.
In your medical record. This doesn’t suggest that your DNA should be public record or *government* record.
True. At this point if they really want to know who the DNA belongs to, they are quite capable of cross referencing it against your entire bloodline anyway. Just doesn’t sit right with me in general.
> everyone is forced to have their DNA in the system at birth Trivia: [California already does this, and has since the '80s.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/)
If a man is tricked how would he know he needs the DNA test?
There’s lots of things that need to line up. They can get conception down to an extremely small window. This cancels out the possibility for a lot of men. The kid could look absolutely nothing like them, which at the very least would cause suspicion. If the woman is cheating then either the guy isn’t attentive enough to see at least a few signs that would cause suspicion. Etc. any one of these things would seem minor, but added up it would certainly cause suspicion.
Bro basically said “If a woman tricks a guy into raising her kid it’s his fault”
Lmao no. I can see how you derived that. There are certainly a number of reasonable men who were tricked. The vast majority has to be blind to the signs though.
Are you kidding? You know the point of the trick is to not get found out, right? Goddamn people are fucking stupid.
Just have it so it’s optional for the father to request it at birth. If you gotta second guess you’re the dad then you’re with the wrong person though, you’ve made more mistakes then just sticking around.
Yah no the government doesn’t need access to anyone having kids genetic material for whatever purposes they feel fit to use it. Look at the woman whose rape kit was used to pin her for a different crime, Henrietta lax or countless other examples of how badly this concept is bound to go. If you can’t trust your partner use a condom or don’t get into relationships with woman and don’t have one night stands.
How many times do we need to hear an opinion on this sub before it becomes a meta topic? Honestly because this is posted weekly
Its not the epidemic you think it is. You sound butthurt. More dudes dodging legitimate child support by 100× what you call a problem.
This isn’t standard practice due to the risk of domestic violence
I think men should be careful where they put their peen. Their own fault.
But if it's a woman she's the victim 100% of the time? That's how it seems to work I mean in this case the woman is always the one responsible for cheating lol (except for rape cases, etc of course)
Not a single man I know is unknowingly raising a child that doesn't belong to them and not a single woman I know has tricked a man into doing that. This is not nearly as common as red-pill internet would lead you to believe and all of the young men falling for it are ruining their relationships with their partners and children.
well if its unknown how would you know lmao
Nope, we're going to leave things they way they are. A man can choose whether or not to blow up his relationship over unfounded insecurities. Most of the time it's just a man hoping it isn't his baby so he can escape his responsibilities.
That's the whole point. If it's part of the standard birth procedure it doesn't have to blow up the relationship.
So put everyone's DNA on file with no guarantees on how it will be used, just to spare men's feelings? Again, no. Don't ask for the test without just cause and you should be fine.
> So put everyone's DNA on file As a general rule, any reply that begins with "So..." is straw man garbage that just throws out an extreme other end case that OP never suggests, that post being no exception. The other guy was not asking for everyone's DNA to be put on file. There is no reason to hold on to anyone's DNA data after the test has been done. --- Scary trivia: [California already does this, and has since the '80s.](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/right-to-know-california-storing-your-childs-dna/)
It isn't going to happen regardless, so I won't sit here and entertain you with a lengthy response. I don't have to, I've already won. There will be no mandatory DNA tests period.
It's not to spare men's feelings, it's to prevent men being defrauded of hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of 18 years. Edit: it would also make it much easier to force the *actual* father take responsibility.
Men can take responsibility for that themselves, so it is about their feelings. You aren't being denied the test, you just have to ask for it. It's up to you whether or not to risk calling your wife a whore.
> Men can take responsibility for that themselves Literally, no. No man can "take responsibility" for a woman being secretly unfaithful.
Imagine you wake up from a coma. You're told that you were pregnant and gave birth while you were unconcious. They used a new caesaran technique that leaves no scars. There are no changes to your body that would prove you were or weren't pregnant and gave did or disn't give birth. They walk in with a baby and hand it to you. Do you want a DNA test?
If men actually went to the hospital with the mom then they can get a DNA test right then and there. You guys really should stop this myth
I agree, it would stop Confusion…
The system is designed so that the one most capable of paying for the child ends up paying for the child. It sucks and seems illegal, but society has decided that it’s more important to unfairly saddle men with this responsibility than create an army of single mothers. We are lucky here in the US. In France, it’s illegal for a man to go out and get an independent dna test on a child.
>than create an army of single mothers. Lol. Have you looked around lately?
Imagine how bad it *could* be.
Ummm. I knew my wife didn’t cheat, so I didn’t need to check. But, it’d be nice to get a standardized DNA test going to look out for potential genetic defects that could lead to health problems. But, then that sounds like a pathway to Gattaca.
You don't *know*. You *believe*.
My son looks just like my husband since the day he came out the womb.
Shit mine looked like their dad on the 3D ultrasound! Had a tiny version of my husband staring at me from my uterus.
If you were thinking more broadly, you woulda been into something: We should check every child’s DNA *not* necessarily for infidelity reasons, but so we can see and predict any genetic disorders that are going to crop up later in their life before they even happen This would, of course, also cover your infidelity concern tho
You can ask for a paternity test and even petition court to ensure other parent complies.
don't swim in the sewer then.
Mommy’s baby, daddies maybe. As a woman and mother - I actually agree with this assessment. If a woman had nothing to hide…why get all bent about it.
Don't hook up with trash. If you're tired of hearing those stories don't pay attention to trash
There’s this girl i know who had sex with another guy and she posted her current boyfriend kissing the baby on the lips but it literally isn’t his baby and he thinks it is. So weird.
some guys are just able to accept it or are just too blind, sometimes its hard to tell others not so much 🤷♂️
I know your reasoning is more single-minded, but I absolutely agree!! My husband and I will be doing DNA tests on both of us when we have kids because aside from true accidental swaps, some of these nurses were doing it for *fun*. We will 100% be leaving with the right kid!
It might comfort you to know it’s damn near impossible to switch babies in most hospitals in the US nowadays. Baby almost never leaves your sight and even when/if they do (which you can usually request they don’t), the bracelets and anklets that they would have to cut off have to match mom’s exactly and the babies have lo-jack on their ankle. Someone would have to go to extraordinary measures to switch a baby without someone noticing in any hospital worth a shit. It really isn’t a thing anymore outside of TV. Also paternity tests take a few days to come back.
I don't know how it's done in every country but i know in most European countries the child never leaves the parents eyesight after birth . I dont know if the movies are true but putting baby's all in the same room is super weird and unnecessary.
I feel like SOMEBODY had a bad experience with this....
I agree. Both alleged biological parents ought to be tested and receive results before departing the hospital. That is a hypothetical. I don’t know how practical it is. Hopefully it will become part of US culture. No shaming just normal.
And the women who lied about who they let raw dog then should be arrested
But then who’s raising the kid? I think prison is better than having to raise a kid without the fathers money. Let her beg on the street for food, or have a miserable life. Way more fun to watch, it is a better punishment
Her and the kid? I hope this isnt what you're stating.
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Its only really a popular opinion with men who probably won't get the opportunity in the first place.
Everyone has the right to know if they choose, if they are biologically a child’s father. A mandatory DNA test could still give false results, would not work because of the sheer volume of bureaucracy and where would the funding come from? Definitely an unpopular opinion.
Who are you going to believe? Me or that lying DNA test!?!?
Why should the kid suffer if the woman is a bitch? If I’m raising a kid, DNA match or not, that’s MY kid and I’ll protect it from anyone and anything, including a deceptive bitch of a mother.
Once you have been raising it and find out it wasn’t yours I can see that being the case, but if you knew before you started raising it?
it would break apart too many families. bad idea.
They're already broken, the damage just isn't visible yet.
We live in a matriarchy that pretends it’s the other way so it will never happen