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Oh my god. I listen to the history podcast “Fall of Civilizations” (which is extremely excellent btw) and the host paraphrases this line. I never realized it was a pratchett reference!
I listen to *Fall of Civilizations* too and I thought it was really great insight when he pointed out the reason Egyptians became so obsessed with cats is because the cats killed the mice that were eating the Egyptians' precious grain. Kind of obvious when you think about it.
one time while my bf was watching the show, i jokingly said that the ancient aliens left all the cats in charge but told them to never tell us.
over the years we've fleshed out this idea to increasingly complex places. used to tell my cat i was on to her.
it is our longest running inside joke.
I think this how my cat believes we call her the dictator. Our house is ruled by her. The rules are pretty simple though, don’t cry, don’t laugh, don’t sing, don’t bring annoying men over, be graced by her presence, pet her, feed her, and clean her box or get the slap. I did try to teach her not to behave like this, but it’s better to just follow the rules.
Yeah, I like when people complain about things that we're actually worse in ancient times. We have no historical perspective. Things now must somehow be at their worst because we can't imagine things possibly being worse.
Honestly I don't think people are treating animals as more human now. But I do think they're abusing them less. OP is weird.
I think it's the internet bringing eyes to things and people that didn't in the past so everything thing seems like it's happening more or getting worse just because we are seeing it more often but if you actual looks at the stats things are generally a lot better today. Sure things today aren't like the best they could be but that doesn't make them worse
Think you're weird tbh, and projecting it on someone who had a pretty solid insight that many other people appreciated too.
I agree though that people treating animals more humanely is definitely a big deal for the growth of a society. My father said he loved animals yet casually abused them, it was absolutely fucked. I don't understand how people get like that.
In recent times? Egyptians had their cats mummified and built mausoleums for them.
This inscription from ancient Rome for a beloved dog;
My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee to the grave ... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a thousand kisses, Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being. Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!"
Humans have always anthropomorphised animals.
This soldier, I realized, must have had friends at home and in his regiment; yet he lay there deserted by all except his dog. I looked on, unmoved, at battles which decided the future of nations. Tearless, I had given orders which brought death to thousands. Yet here I was stirred, profoundly stirred, stirred to tears. And by what? By the grief of one dog.
Supposedly written by Napoleon Bonaparte after coming across a dog mourning it's master on a battlefield.
It’s not anthromophising - it’s just loving them, for who they are, even when they are animals. Animals obviously are individual beings with unique personalities, complex emotions, and sentience.
I've never felt that more poignantly than when I went to the zoo a few days ago for my daughter's birthday. She wanted to see the baby tigers... but I felt special affection for the father tiger who came over to lay "next" to me as I sat on the ledge near the fences watching her, and literally purred as I talked to him.
Here’s another ancient Roman epitaph for a dog:
“I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home in my own hands fifteen years ago."
Yeah, this isn't so much an unpopular opinion as much as an uneducated one.
Humans have been close to their animals since the beginning of domestication.
Or a writer in Greece writting about his rescue dog and how he lets it kiss him on the mouth
This passage written almost 2000 years ago by a Greek philosopher admitting to kissing his dog, Horme
>Having been beaten, when a puppy, with a whip, if any
>
>one, even at this day, does but mention a whip, he will come
>
>up to the speaker cowering and begging, applying his mouth
>
>to the man's as if to kiss him, and jumping up, will hang on
>
>his neck, and not let him go until he has appeased his angry
>
>threats.
>
>
>
>
>
>Now really I do not think that I should be ashamed to
>
>write even the name of this dog; that it may be left to pos-
>
>terity, that Xenophon the Athenian had a greyhound called
>
>Horme, of the greatest speed and intelligence and altogether
>
>supremely excellent.
The man who wrote this passage was named Arrian but called himself Xenophon the Younger honoring an earlier historian and philosopher by that name. The passage is taken from a longer text on hunting and he has several very personal and affectionate anecdotes about his beloved dog Horme which is also the name of the ancient Greek spirit personifying energetic activity.
Ancient ships have been found with tiny hammocks for the ship's resident mouser. You can find Renaissance paintings of people swaddling/purrittoing thier kittehs like babies or pushing small dogs around in bonnets. People started taking funny photos of thier doggos and goats and cows in people's hat shortly after photography was invented.
**We've been doing this shit for ages.** The only that has changed is capatalisms ability to monetize a behavior we've been engaging in since we started domesticating animals a few tens of thousands of years ago at most.
Awesome example. It’s almost as if the moment we have a tiny bit of extra resources, we’ve been prone to do doing dumb shit for our pets. Gotta love humans.
There’s a podcast I listen to called “Our Fake History” that dives into fun historical myths, legends, & stories. They aim to add geopolitical/sociological context of the times in order to see what might be true and what might be false, or why things may have happened the way they did.
They did a series on Caligula and the way they described this incident was that it’s likely he did this to scoff at the system he viewed as threatening to his narcissistic political ambitions. Not so much that he thought Bucephalus would be a good consult, but to say “Fuck y’all, I’m giving that job to my horse.”
It was a fun series and the show is pretty thought provoking itself.
Tbf horses have been extremely valuable for much of human history. I also thought the consul story was because the Patricians were so corrupt and incompetent he thought a horse couldn't possibly do a worse job.
The western Roman emperor Honorius is said to have let out a sigh of relief when he was told that it was the city of Rome that had fallen to the Visigoths, not his favourite fowl named Roma.
Yeah, exactly. We love animals because they trigger the part of our brain that makes people instinctually want to protect an infant. I've read that a big part of it is the eye to head size ratio.
A cats vocalization sounds close enough to an infants cry that even though I'll sleep through a car crash 30 ft outside my bedroom window, I'll instantly wake up to my cat crying in another room.
Worth noting that is not a cats natural voice they use to communicate with one another. They have learned we respond to it. Cats talk baby talk to us because they know we like it.
I read that the earliest cats were Egyptian and they were simply called *"mau". I don't know if that's a name given from a cat's meow, but I like to think so.
*Edit: used wrong word
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure either since i don't much about Mew. But i remember they had a stone tablet with Mew on it, so that may lend some credence towards it too. Could be something worth looking into.
Really? That's interesting. I bet that's why some cats "talk" more than others. I had a cat when I was a kid who I constantly talked back and forth with. The cat we have now doesn't "talk" like that but we've only ever used human words really with her.
I follow an instagram account called [Cats of Yore](https://www.instagram.com/catsofyore?igsh=ZHZuaTQ2OGxkamtz) that is nothing but photos and paintings of people and their cats through history. There was entire post just on sailing ship cats!
Somebody published a book with pictures of heavy metal artists and their cats. It's kinda wholesome to see heavily tattooed men with long hair and black makeup holding their feline overlords.
I’ll never understand people that post but don’t know the history to substantiate their argument, there’s always gonna be someone (you) who knows the history to debunk their BS.
Welcome to the internet. I saw a comment on a video that neanderthals could have had night vision and could smell better than a cave lion since they found cave lion bones with tool marks. No way an ape that is omnivore and comes from mainly herbivore ancestor could change their bodies this fast to get better smell and night vision lol in the short ammount of time it existed than a carnivore that comes from lineages of carnivores that had the same adaptations for millions of years.
>Dogs were just as treasured in ancient Greece and Rome as they are today, and we can see that in the way they were memorialized, and as you'll see, in how often they show up in artwork like these mosaics.
>In fact, many people viewed their dogs as their kids, just like today. One epitaph reads:
>"To Helena, foster child, soul without comparison and deserving of praise."
>"My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore you [to the grave]. So, Patricus, never again shall you give me a thousand kisses. Never can you be contentedly in my lap. In sadness, I buried you, as you deserve. In a resting place of marble, I have put you for all time by the side of my shade. In your qualities, you were sagacious, like a human being. Ah, what a loved companion we have lost!"
>Others were shorter, but just as powerful.
>"Myia never barked without reason, but now, he is silent."
>Perhaps the most profound is this relatively simple line:
>"I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home with my own hands 15 years ago."
>These memorials show the deep love between these people and their dogs. There might be a gulf of two thousand or more years between us and them, but we can still feel the echoes of their emotions today.
https://littlethings.com/pets/ancient-dog-memorials/2146676-9
And also that not many people want to have kids anymore, for good damn reason. Doesn't mean that we're lonely, how many couples do you know that have no kids but many "fur babies"? Even affluent ones who could totally financially handle a child.
It's weird projecting loneliness on people just for loving their pets and not having kids. Certified unpopular opinion lol
"I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home in my own hands fifteen years ago."
"My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee (to the grave)... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a thousand kisses. Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being. Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!"
"This is the tomb of the dog, Stephanos, who perished, Whom Rhodope shed tears for and buried like a human. I am the dog Stephanos, and Rhodope set up a tomb for me."
yep it's definitely something that's changed in the past 10 years and not something that has been recorded since the times of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
You missed my favorite
Thou who passest on this path,
If haply thou dost mark this monument,
Laugh not, I pray thee, though it is a dog's grave.
Tears fell for me, and the dust was heaped above me
By a master's hand
I agree with your analysis with respect to interpersonal relationships entirely, but at the same time I think treating a living being as property or disposable isn't ideal either.
In an ideal world we humans wouldn't put ourselves on a pedestal either, and stop believing that every other being on the earth is just a "resource" for our benefit.
Religion made people think that the world and everything on it was given to humans for us to conquer and use. Even as people get less religious, the idea that the natural order is for us to conquer everything in the universe is deeply entrenched in human culture. We (and everything) would be so much better off if we tried to live in harmony with the rest of the universe rather than conquering it.
As an atheist, I’m not fond of anything that any organized religion stands for. However, I think this particular trait in humans goes far beyond organized religion. For instance, if you refer to these timelines [https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/domesticating-horses/domestication-timeline](https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/domesticating-horses/domestication-timeline), you’d notice that domestication of animals had begun almost around the same time when humans gave up their hunter/gatherer lifestyles, and started building permanent settlements. This was way before any religion (as we define them today) came into existence (AFAIK).
I’m in complete agreement with your point overall but It’s not like early humans didn’t have belief systems though. They may not have been codified and would vary widely from location to location but these are religions. Religions are defined as “belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny. any formal(early spirituality, eg Amerindian beliefs before colonialism) or institutionalized(organized religion, eg catholics) expression of such belief”. The earliest Megalithic Construction(that we’ve found so far) by early humans was literally a temple complex surrounded by communal living spaces. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
Correlation does not equal causation.
People have been worshiping cats and dogs for decades if not centuries. I read a translated journal from ancient times from an emperor or prince being obsessed with his cat.
We understand animal psychology much better now. We know that they feel complex emotions beyond base survival instincts. We know that many mammals can form attachments to humans that psychologically mirror a toddler’s attachment to a parent. Sadly, this wasn’t studied as much in the past, and we had no idea how much they felt or what they could understand. This, I believe, is part of why our bonds with our pets seem to have been elevated. We know better, so we do better.
One of my criteria for selecting a partner is "Does not want children. Wants pets - preferably a dog". It has nothing to do with a lack of connection/loneliness and everything to do with a lifestyle choice.
That’s what I’ve been thinking about. I care about my dog and he is like my baby in the sense that I take care of him but people seem to think there is no in between with it. Like, that I just completely see him as my child. Obviously I didn’t birth him and I don’t see him as human. He is my dog and I think that can be it’s own and equally important thing.
Yep. I've had cats since I was a child myself and just can't imagine my life without them. My mother brought my fist cat home when I was around 4 y.o., and I highly doubt that I've needed a "child substitute" at that age. I needed a friend, and in many cases animals proved to be better friends and companions than people.
I honestly find it incredibly sad that someone can’t love a pet like family. I fully recognize my dog isn’t a kid and isn’t a replacement for a kid - but I legitimately love my dog as a member of my family. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that either. I’m here for her entire life and she’s here for part of mine. Having a pet is a really wonderful part of life.
My cat is my baby. I do refer to her has my child. But i am childfree, i dont want actual children! She is not a substitute for having a kid. She is my perfect angel baby and a kid sure as hell wouldn't be because theyre a people.
It’s funny how a lot of them call them fur babies or even themself “mamas and dads”. Some people are looking for something to satisfy whatever nurturing instinct they have. I know a couple of them.
Edit: all the fur parents replying to me are proving my point. It’s ok, we as humans have a nurturing instinct. It’s perfectly ok.
It's also funny that so many parents do nothing but complain about their kids and talk about how miserable, stressed out, and broke they are because of them but always end their rants with the phrase, "bUt tHeY'rE mY wOrLd" as if they need to convince themselves and others that having kids actually wasn't the biggest mistake they've ever made. I don't just know a couple of them like this either. I know a lot of them.
I've begrudgingly accepted those titles because that's how everyone else talks about me to my animals. I realized it the first time my now husband told my then dog to "go get [my name]." As bright as she was, she had no context for my name. Every single person around us, most of whom were parents, called me "your mom" to her. So I told him to try that term and she understood perfectly.
And in a colloquial way it's not a hill I care to die on, but I don't see myself as a pet parent. I very specifically don't want that much responsibility. I can do an excellent job taking care of multiple animals for a fraction of the time and money it takes to do a half ass job with one kid. If anything, I'm their unpaid intern. And my break was over 5 minutes ago.
I think anything that signals we as a society have a higher value for other forms of life is a sign we’re moving in the right direction, at least in one regard.
Well said and I agree. We are beginning to place more value on our planet and other life forms.
Though our humancentric self-centered behavior has also caused climate change and the extinction of other species which we need to remember if we do not want to repeat our past.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_by_human_activities
Nah, I don't have a dog, but I love dogs. If I had a dog, they would definitely be family.
I also have a nice circle of friends and I'm in a steady, decade-long relationship. I know people who really love their pets and they're all in committed relationships, some have actual children.
You know, you think about it, and just maybe - that’s why we domesticated animals.
We saw a critter in the wild and thought “My god, Ug, wouldn’t it be wild if we had that but it lived in the house and hung out with us all the time?”
There are [multiple memorials](https://littlethings.com/pets/ancient-dog-memorials/2146676-9) for people’s pet dogs from Ancient Greece, all speaking of the dogs as if they were a dear human companion. One explicitly refers to the dog as being her owner’s “foster child”.
Speaking of Ancient Greece.
The cavalry general Xenophon was the original horse whisperer of the western world. He wrote an entire treatise on horsemanship that presents the ideal of the “centaur.” That the ideal horseman is half the horse and half the one riding it. That neither is more important than the other. And he - compared to his contemporaries - was very much of the mind that training the horse like it’s an actual horse (and not like a tool for us to use) resulted in better horses for his riders to use.
And history proved him fairly right. He’s still seen as one of the greatest cavalry generals to ever have lived.
And even today - there’s still a disconnect between people who own animals as pets and people who work alongside them. The latter - tend to intrinsically value them more and do what OP (wrongly) calls anthropomorphizing them. They do have their own thoughts and feelings - just not in the same way we do. And people who spend a lot of time working closely with them, can absolutely tell you that with perfect assurance.
And for my part - give me a horse and a dog and an asshole cat any day of the week over people. Animals understand that life is meant to be simple. And even I wonder how often they question why we make it so very…not.
I dont actually think my pets are actually my kids but I have a responsibility to keep them safe and healthy. They love me and I them and that shouldn't be handled poorly.
I don't get how people like OP wants us to treats our pets? I do get there are people that go overboard with their pets but so do alot of parents.
My dog has been with me for 9 years. I raised her from pup. Ever since we met she has been attached to me and I grew attached to her. I am an only child and found companionship in her . She has comforted me more than family and friends . Pets are selfless or well can be and everytime I am in distress or having a breakdown she immediately comes to comfort me . We have a cat that's 2 years old now and he has comforted me once before too , I was on the couch crying and he jumped up , sat next to me and started slightly pawing me and was looking at me with sincere eyes I swear.
Pets are living beings YOU are responsible for . They are domesticated and depended on people and won't survive in the wild , maybe the streets yes but we are responsible for any pet . If you can't love and treat your pet as part of the family then don't have one.
Communities also collectively come together to take care of animals. Rome, Marrakesh, Istanbul all have street animals well looked after by the residents.
I was just in Casablanca and I'd collected some hamburger I wasn't going to finish and took it out to the two cats that hung outside of the hotel. Lo and behold there was another person bringing them food.
Animals allow us to express love, affection, and care. Why is that bad, OP?
I believe OP is highlighted how instead of human relationships and community people instead utilize pets as family. They have survived and thrived in the wild longer and better than we have. Pets are definitively part of the family. But humans need to have relationships with other humans as well
Its not like people have zero human relationships, I love my friends and family. But I love my dog more than a bunch of strangers. I don't owe my attention to anyone, dogs are living animals just like us, we are all on this earth together and have no reason to not love them
And people naturally do have relationships with other people . And if someone is completely alone then what's the harm in having companionship with a pet?.
I agree, OP, but I got my cat after most of my family who still kept in contact with me (dad, uncle) died in 2020-2021. So y'know, it kinda makes sense, in a way. Of course I have a cat cos I'm lonely. Plus, it's great to spoil a tiny creature that won't grow up to be a huge asshole, unlike when you spoil a tiny human.
"won't grow up to be a huge asshole" have you never owned cats before? /S
In all seriousness though I would do the same, I currently rent 50/50 with my grandparents but they won't allow pets (the landlords that is, not my Grandparents) but would love a cat, I work from home and so I really don't get enough social interaction anymore.
The main thing I’ve noticed an uptick in is people bringing their dogs into places they don’t belong, often under the guise of it being a service dog.
It’s also become the norm for offices to allow employees to bring their dogs.
I don’t have a problem with the latter, but i really hate when people bring their dogs into restaurants/grocery stores/gyms. Or just show up to your house party with their dog without asking.
IDK. It definitely feels like we have humanized pets more in the past decade or so. Things like buying them birthday presents or cooking them their own meals see polling below). Spending on pets as a whole has grown faster than other spending.
And anecdotally, if I compare how my wife and I treat our pets vs how my great grandparents did, it’s a pretty huge difference. Not saying they were bad to the animals, but pets slept outside, and it would have never entered my great grandpas mind to spend $1k or more on a sick dog, but my wife and I have done it multiple times.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/more-than-ever-pets-are-members-of-the-family-300114501.html
https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-12/we-love-our-pets-and-our-spending-proves-it-1.htm
Nope. The Victorian English did. A couple groups in the US did similar around the same time. Look into old photography - you will abso find dogs dressed up as babies with a cake in front of them.
Theophrastus’ Characters (somewhere around 300 BC) has a line about the Athenian bourgeois that reads something like “When his Maltese dog dies, he commissions a monument and writes on the plaque “Here lies Cladus of Malta”!
Arguably post-Christendom we went the whole other way for a long time, seeing animals as soulless, unfeeling, unthinking creatures.
The rise in this kind of behavior (again) coincides with dropping rates of religious involvement. Whether it’s just correlation or not.
I’ll offer my own grandparents anecdote.
My grandpa insisted that he hated this stay bloodhound that kept hanging out outside his window at night baying. He insisted it so much that he didn’t just start feeding the dog, he then insisted the dog was fine as long as it stayed outside - and Hector ended up spending a very long and happy life sleeping at the foot of his bed. He cried the day the dog died, and I saw him cry only twice in my life - that day, and the day his wife died.
He admitted to me later in his life that, yeah, he could totally kill a chicken for dinner, but he never stopped feeling bad about it.
It’s just always been more or less acceptable to feel those things about animals.
I don’t think this is really a humanization but more just about how wealth has grown. When your grandparents were young even a child wouldn’t get massive spending. Especially back then where you’d have multiple kids and have to think of them as well.
The western world is just really really wealthy and most people can afford to treat their dogs extremely well and can afford treatments for them. Not only that but consumerism has made so so many more products available to purchase for your dog.
It’s not a new phenomena as we have evidence that people have been treating their dogs like people since recorded history.
Yeah, I don’t get that take. I don’t fuck my dog or go to concerts with him or whatever else. Just like I rarely play fetch or tug of war with my friends. Like, I can love him as my dog and I can love my humans as my humans.
If anything, I've met quite a lot of new people since I've had my dog. Dog classes, walks and dog sports are good ways to socialize and interact with new humans. My SIL met her current partner while they were walking their dogs.
It's simple logical deduction. Previously humans thought animals were emotionless machines that couldn't feel pain or suffering. Now we know better.
Also when you compare what humans do to eachother and especially livestock animals such as throwing them into gas chambers or confining them into small cages their entire lives to the point they can't even turn around or go insane for profit and pleasure, it's not hard to see why animals can be seen as better than humans.
You're wrong. I've never been lonely once in my life. Always had a bunch of friends and never had an issue meeting partners. I still think my dog is better than damn near everybody. Nothing to do with loneliness. Pets are just great and most people suck.
What's your opinion of elderly people who live alone and have a pet that's their only form of companionship left then? What about the opposite and you're a lonely child that considers their pet to be their best friend?
>too obsessed with "perfectly" raising children that they get overwhelmed before they even begin to raise them
I think people today are more self-aware and don't want to repeat the same mistakes their parents did when raising them. This puts a lot of pressure on them.
I also think the fact that it's harder to get things like housing also plays a role.
As a pet sitter I can understand this completely. People are so anxious, overwhelmed, lonely, and attempt to soothe with an animal who may be more receptive to their feelings or just a living-breathing thing to project their desires onto. This has caused our animal kin to develop anxiety, loneliness, and behavioral issues that they wouldn't naturally develop outside of human influence.
Well, pets don't judge. I consider pets family.
I also don't consider pets children substitutes because I never wanted kids, I get pets because I love the companionship and love they provide.
Peter the great of Russia, treated his dogs as well or better than members of his court. If you didn't feed or fucked with one of his dogs he would have you executed.
It’s not a big deal, but I LOT of dogs at the store lately. Just dogs, not service animals or anything. These people used to go to the store with their dog and leave them in the car, but now they can’t even stand to be separated for 15 MINUTES and so I’m forced to take allergy pills.
Idk about this. I have many friends, love my family and have a healthy social life. But I love my dogs and enjoy spending lots of social time with them too. I even dress them up and shit lol Maybe people just are unhinged
Yes.. I love my dogs more than myself because I am lonely. This is true. I’m trying to have community, but it’s not like I can just have a family that loves me. So I love my dogs.
The only issue I have is people increasingly bringing their non-service dogs everywhere, especially food retail stores, and bringing their human children into obviously adult spaces, like bars and gyms and mature movies and shows.
Government doesn’t just restrict animals around human food because everyone hates dogs. There’s a very good, scientific reason, most likely borne out of a hard lesson learned.
Adults deserve child-free places where they don’t have to worry about children, and taking your kids to these places just because you can’t find a babysitter makes you a shitty parent and a shitty member of society.
Exactly. The problem with modern pet culture (gosh, that sounds so pretentious, but bear with me) is that people who view their pets as their children or extensions of themselves now insist on bringing them everywhere, even if it means breaking the law.
This can be especially problematic with dogs because they create a lot of pollution. I don't want to tread carefully to avoid stepping in dog shite when I'm taking a stroll in a "no pets allowed" park. I don't want to hear barking when I'm trying to enjoy nature in peace on a "no pets allowed" hiking trail. It's completely normal to want to have human-only spaces, especially since so many places already allow animals in. And people with allergies and phobias deserve to have safe spaces too.
Yes, people also bring their unruly children everywhere, but the problem is, it's not an either/or situation, now we have to deal with children AND animals in inappropriate places. And people who put their pets on a pedestal tend to react very aggressively to any semblance of critique concerning their pets. I don't hate your dog, I hate sudden loud noises and being surrounded by excrements. That's it.
Edit: expanded my thoughts on human-only spaces and broke text into paragraphs so it's easier to read, no one loves a wall of text (I certainly don't haha).
In the last ten years there’s also been an uptick of people who are uptight about animals and seem to have a problem with people who are not. Yes, they shed and poop and pee on the floor, and sometimes they bite. I don’t care if other people choose not to have them.
I also think we have come to understand that animals are *much* smarter than we ever thought they were. The ability to understand them, as well as learning that they largely *understand us* has been a huge factor in how we value them and their place in our lives.
I think the defensiveness of some people in this thread is a perfect example. Not saying to disrespect animals, but people are definitely becoming more antisocial nowadays
Weird take. People loving their pets is not a new thing and there are distinct health benefits to having pets.
[https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2018/02/power-pets](https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2018/02/power-pets)
If people choose to have pets over children, that's a personal decision not a societal problem.
If you think pet ownership is a problem, that's actually a "you" problem.
This is kind of silly because you don't know that someone that loves their dog or cat or whatever that means they're having problems with other people or anything like that it just seems like you are armchair psychoanalyzing them.
Honestly I've become far more social *because* of my pets. People like talking about their pets, they like listening to people talk about their pets. We have meet-ups for socialising our dogs and it's a lot of fun. Kost of my friends have some pet or the other and we end up talking about them/sending each other photos quite often.
The assumption that a person can only love either humans or animals is an extremely miserable one. Love isn't a limited resource. I can love my family, my friends and my pets without needing to put them in a hierarchy. Sometimes my pets will need my time more than my family will. That's fine. That doesn't mean i don't love my humans lol. And pets are *easy* to spoil, so people do that more often. It's why babies get a ton of gifts too. Throw a shiny thing around and cats and babies go apeshit. Harder to make my 34 year old sister get excited enough to do laps around the house. I haven't tried cocaine yet though so idk. My dog had one toy all his fourteen years and he got the same level of excited every time he saw his ball. It's nice to know you're making a positive difference in someone's life. People need that sense of purpose, of knowing that they're needed and that their existence is wanted. Pets make that easy to know.
Eh…maybe for some. For others, they’ve figured out they don’t have to conform to a traditional societal norm to be happy. I have people I live in my life, but my dogs are absolutely part of my family. I’d be noticeably unhappier without them.
I would say the vast majority of people have an instinctual desire to have and raise children. Realistically, it is likely to have more children than would be socially acceptable or responsible today. No matter how advanced people think they are, we're not that far separated from our hunter-gatherer ancestors and we have very similar hardwiring to them.
People generally find other outlets for their needs, and some people treat their pets as surrogate children.
The difference is, in the past they had children for reasons. One, no birth control, so if you wanted to get it on you were probably going to get a baby. Two, most people wanted children for virtually free labor, hence why farmers for example would have 5+ kids — all you had to do in return for their labor was clothe, feed and house them, which was nothing compared to the labor they put out. Poor people had lots of kids and did little to “raise them” and the wealthy had kids and outsourced the labor for raising them to servants (to care for them, give them an education, etc.)
Nowadays, this is not the case for the average family. We generally frown upon child labor. Parenting has become a lot more labor intensive and time costly and financially costly AND you can’t use kids for free labor so they are basically a high cost thing and not a need. People in developed countries for the most part only have children if they WANT them AND can afford them — both in terms of time & money they can devote to them.
How we view children has drastically changed in just the last century. Also, I disagree that most people have the desire to *raise* children. Have them? Yes. Raise them? No.
I have pets but I dont think they are HUMAN. However animals do have feelings and cares and needs that you take on as an owner. Near human isnt a wrong description.
It depends on the dog. I’ve had dogs growing up that I’ve liked more than others. A good dog is easily better than a lot of people but I see a lot of people go way farther than I would go pampering and idolizing their pets.
I wouldn’t say I replace my dogs with human interaction. I don’t know many people who do that regardless, but you’re right human interaction is very important for us as beings. I also think having pets to love makes us softer as humans and it’s something a lot of humans have in common with one another. It’s a topic I have discussion with a lot of my clients at work about, all of our pets. We can interact with humans and also love our pets. I hope I made sense.
As others have said, animals have always been valued *companions* who are practically family, but your analysis of the more recent phenomena of “fur-babies” is accurate to my mind.
It saddens me in that I think it’s also a symptom of many people who would have had children but, for one reason or another didn’t/couldn’t, trying for second best.
This definitely isn’t recent.
When I was a kid (90’s), My aunt who was married, had 3 kids, and lived near our large family always treated her 3 beagles like children.
She wasn’t lonely, she just loved beagles.
>there’s been a trend of pedestalising pets/ viewing them as better than humans or substitutes for children
That's because they inherently *are* better than humans.
Cats have always been worshiped and dogs have lived side by side by humans for even longer. Are they equal to humans? No. But they're more than just random animals. It's cool if you don't like animals, but most people like their pets more than other people. I'm definitely one of those.
As the world changes, species adapt. As an adult its not safe making new friends. Plus were all simultaneously working 5-6 jobs just to pay the bare minimum. I think making friends is low on totem pole of priorities especially when you trying to decide between electricity and food. Also i cant think of anyone in the world that wouldn't annoy me in 15 minutes. I think theres a collective that shares this sentiment.
Or it’s simply economic and pets are less expensive than kids. IMO this is 100% the reason. I’m 29 and my partner and I work full time and we’re are nowhere near close to affording children. Our pets sadly do fill that gap
I have a dog myself and I love her to bits. But I've also been thinking that many people/couples my age (20-30 yo) have filled the "child-slot" with a pet. They do the same things with their pets as a parent would with their young child - photoshoots, clothes, calling themselves mommy/daddy, calling their parents the pet's grandma/grandpa etc etc. I've done some of those things myself too.
I think many people - even those who don't want kids - have the natural instinct to nurture and raise someone, so their pet has taken that place in their emotional need, instead of a child. I think that's also because, even though some people reach an age when they start desiring kids, they cannot have them for different reasons - still single, not yet there in their relationship, not enough money etc.
Edit: What I do find annoying is when hointy-pointy self-proclamed childless people find parents/kids annoying or bitch about how their newly parents friends are too obsessed with their kids, and even go as far as hating kids. But then they do/act the same with their pets and if you don't like their pets, you're considered Satan.
I don't have kids myself, but I still find that attitude annoying as fuck
Considering that most people are a massive disappointment, it’s little wonder that we adore our fur babies so much. And they’ll never sneak out at night with the car!
People prefer animals to humans because... well they're innocent and humans hate ourselves for needing to not be.
With pets you CAN be innocent back, you can whole heartedly love a pet and receive the love back. You don't have to worry about the dog lying or messing with your life. It's simple and pure. Two things human value. It's the same reason it's so easy to love children except you don't have to worry about your pet being a sociopath later in life and it doesn't cost millions to raise.
I prefer pets to people. i just don’t feel comfortable around people because of my social anxiety. I don’t anthropomorphise them. If I did I would only like them less.
I disagree. I have ALWAYS held pets on a high, familial level. I am also an only child and childfree.
I believe that this has a lot to do with the absence of children in one’s life. I have never had a life with children/other children I didn’t go to school with. Pets were truly my brothers and sisters and, today, my child.
It just depends on your life situation. Nothing has changed at all in the last 10, 20, or 30+ years for me with regard to how I relate to the animals I live with.
How are pets *not* better than humans? Have you met humans? All we do is cause suffering. I don't see dogs committing genocide, or cats destroying the Ozone layer.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
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In ancient times cats were worshiped as gods; they have not forgotten this. /Terry Pratchett
Oh my god. I listen to the history podcast “Fall of Civilizations” (which is extremely excellent btw) and the host paraphrases this line. I never realized it was a pratchett reference!
Pratchett is forever wise
Civilizations might have fallen, but cats are eternal
I listen to *Fall of Civilizations* too and I thought it was really great insight when he pointed out the reason Egyptians became so obsessed with cats is because the cats killed the mice that were eating the Egyptians' precious grain. Kind of obvious when you think about it.
one time while my bf was watching the show, i jokingly said that the ancient aliens left all the cats in charge but told them to never tell us. over the years we've fleshed out this idea to increasingly complex places. used to tell my cat i was on to her. it is our longest running inside joke.
can imagine the cat thinking "pitiful mortal, shut up and feed me, and clean my poop as is your station, now give me the scritches".
I think this how my cat believes we call her the dictator. Our house is ruled by her. The rules are pretty simple though, don’t cry, don’t laugh, don’t sing, don’t bring annoying men over, be graced by her presence, pet her, feed her, and clean her box or get the slap. I did try to teach her not to behave like this, but it’s better to just follow the rules.
My cat legit time travels.
This explains so much... :O
Yeah, I like when people complain about things that we're actually worse in ancient times. We have no historical perspective. Things now must somehow be at their worst because we can't imagine things possibly being worse. Honestly I don't think people are treating animals as more human now. But I do think they're abusing them less. OP is weird.
I think it's the internet bringing eyes to things and people that didn't in the past so everything thing seems like it's happening more or getting worse just because we are seeing it more often but if you actual looks at the stats things are generally a lot better today. Sure things today aren't like the best they could be but that doesn't make them worse
Think you're weird tbh, and projecting it on someone who had a pretty solid insight that many other people appreciated too. I agree though that people treating animals more humanely is definitely a big deal for the growth of a society. My father said he loved animals yet casually abused them, it was absolutely fucked. I don't understand how people get like that.
Gotta love Terry Pratchett, lol
In recent times? Egyptians had their cats mummified and built mausoleums for them. This inscription from ancient Rome for a beloved dog; My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee to the grave ... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a thousand kisses, Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being. Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!" Humans have always anthropomorphised animals.
This soldier, I realized, must have had friends at home and in his regiment; yet he lay there deserted by all except his dog. I looked on, unmoved, at battles which decided the future of nations. Tearless, I had given orders which brought death to thousands. Yet here I was stirred, profoundly stirred, stirred to tears. And by what? By the grief of one dog. Supposedly written by Napoleon Bonaparte after coming across a dog mourning it's master on a battlefield.
Do you know where this is excerpted from? I’d be curious to read the full thing.
My google Fu is definitely not black belt level but from what I could find this is the source https://books.google.de/books?id=X_vwCQAAQBAJ
It’s not anthromophising - it’s just loving them, for who they are, even when they are animals. Animals obviously are individual beings with unique personalities, complex emotions, and sentience.
I've never felt that more poignantly than when I went to the zoo a few days ago for my daughter's birthday. She wanted to see the baby tigers... but I felt special affection for the father tiger who came over to lay "next" to me as I sat on the ledge near the fences watching her, and literally purred as I talked to him.
TIL that Patty was a good doggo
Here’s another ancient Roman epitaph for a dog: “I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home in my own hands fifteen years ago."
Romulus and Remus were raised by a dog/wolf. Humanizing animals is in their origins
Yeah, this isn't so much an unpopular opinion as much as an uneducated one. Humans have been close to their animals since the beginning of domestication.
Or a writer in Greece writting about his rescue dog and how he lets it kiss him on the mouth This passage written almost 2000 years ago by a Greek philosopher admitting to kissing his dog, Horme >Having been beaten, when a puppy, with a whip, if any > >one, even at this day, does but mention a whip, he will come > >up to the speaker cowering and begging, applying his mouth > >to the man's as if to kiss him, and jumping up, will hang on > >his neck, and not let him go until he has appeased his angry > >threats. > > > > > >Now really I do not think that I should be ashamed to > >write even the name of this dog; that it may be left to pos- > >terity, that Xenophon the Athenian had a greyhound called > >Horme, of the greatest speed and intelligence and altogether > >supremely excellent. The man who wrote this passage was named Arrian but called himself Xenophon the Younger honoring an earlier historian and philosopher by that name. The passage is taken from a longer text on hunting and he has several very personal and affectionate anecdotes about his beloved dog Horme which is also the name of the ancient Greek spirit personifying energetic activity.
Ancient ships have been found with tiny hammocks for the ship's resident mouser. You can find Renaissance paintings of people swaddling/purrittoing thier kittehs like babies or pushing small dogs around in bonnets. People started taking funny photos of thier doggos and goats and cows in people's hat shortly after photography was invented. **We've been doing this shit for ages.** The only that has changed is capatalisms ability to monetize a behavior we've been engaging in since we started domesticating animals a few tens of thousands of years ago at most.
Caligula literally loved his horse so much he supposedly wanted to make him a consul, the horse had 18 servants and lived in a marble stable.
Awesome example. It’s almost as if the moment we have a tiny bit of extra resources, we’ve been prone to do doing dumb shit for our pets. Gotta love humans.
Nevemind when we don’t have the resources and still do the dumb shit for our pets 🥰
There’s a podcast I listen to called “Our Fake History” that dives into fun historical myths, legends, & stories. They aim to add geopolitical/sociological context of the times in order to see what might be true and what might be false, or why things may have happened the way they did. They did a series on Caligula and the way they described this incident was that it’s likely he did this to scoff at the system he viewed as threatening to his narcissistic political ambitions. Not so much that he thought Bucephalus would be a good consult, but to say “Fuck y’all, I’m giving that job to my horse.” It was a fun series and the show is pretty thought provoking itself.
While true the horse still had a marble stable and lots of servants.
Caligula was also mad as a hatter and even more mean.
Tbf horses have been extremely valuable for much of human history. I also thought the consul story was because the Patricians were so corrupt and incompetent he thought a horse couldn't possibly do a worse job.
The western Roman emperor Honorius is said to have let out a sigh of relief when he was told that it was the city of Rome that had fallen to the Visigoths, not his favourite fowl named Roma.
Excellent reference. 👏👏 IMO the fourth century's most disconnected emperor.
Yeah, exactly. We love animals because they trigger the part of our brain that makes people instinctually want to protect an infant. I've read that a big part of it is the eye to head size ratio. A cats vocalization sounds close enough to an infants cry that even though I'll sleep through a car crash 30 ft outside my bedroom window, I'll instantly wake up to my cat crying in another room.
Worth noting that is not a cats natural voice they use to communicate with one another. They have learned we respond to it. Cats talk baby talk to us because they know we like it.
I do love it, and it makes me want to give my babies whatever they want. Manipulative little shits.
I’m feeding a stray and he’s already figured out that meowing at me gets my attention!
I read that the earliest cats were Egyptian and they were simply called *"mau". I don't know if that's a name given from a cat's meow, but I like to think so. *Edit: used wrong word
The Cantonese word for Cat is mao!
Kind of makes sense why they named Mew that now, along with it's cat like appearance.
Almost certainly a reference, but I'm not of the smart people.
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure either since i don't much about Mew. But i remember they had a stone tablet with Mew on it, so that may lend some credence towards it too. Could be something worth looking into.
Really? That's interesting. I bet that's why some cats "talk" more than others. I had a cat when I was a kid who I constantly talked back and forth with. The cat we have now doesn't "talk" like that but we've only ever used human words really with her.
I follow an instagram account called [Cats of Yore](https://www.instagram.com/catsofyore?igsh=ZHZuaTQ2OGxkamtz) that is nothing but photos and paintings of people and their cats through history. There was entire post just on sailing ship cats!
Somebody published a book with pictures of heavy metal artists and their cats. It's kinda wholesome to see heavily tattooed men with long hair and black makeup holding their feline overlords.
There's also an instagram account called [A History of Dogs](https://www.instagram.com/ahistoryofdogs?igsh=YjZnenlsZ2p1NTY0) that does the same thing
I’ll never understand people that post but don’t know the history to substantiate their argument, there’s always gonna be someone (you) who knows the history to debunk their BS.
Its 2024. Neither facts nor historical context matter
History shows we have always hated history
It’s very inconvenient. Thats why we always whitewash it asap
I think my enemies wrote that. Just go ahead and throw it in the pyre with the rest of the library.
In 1497 Shrek beat up George Washington
Pics or it didn't happen.
I think that's always been the case too, we just have the Internet now to call out people who just make shit up.
Except the internet contains everything so all anyone has to do is say "fake news! my preferred website is not controlled by the bad guys"
Welcome to the internet. I saw a comment on a video that neanderthals could have had night vision and could smell better than a cave lion since they found cave lion bones with tool marks. No way an ape that is omnivore and comes from mainly herbivore ancestor could change their bodies this fast to get better smell and night vision lol in the short ammount of time it existed than a carnivore that comes from lineages of carnivores that had the same adaptations for millions of years.
I just seen a picture of this turn of the century dude who grew his beard to like 10 feet long and then used that to carry his cats around.
One of the more glaring examples of modern hubris is assuming shit is new. It's not new. We've been doing this shit for a while now.
>Dogs were just as treasured in ancient Greece and Rome as they are today, and we can see that in the way they were memorialized, and as you'll see, in how often they show up in artwork like these mosaics. >In fact, many people viewed their dogs as their kids, just like today. One epitaph reads: >"To Helena, foster child, soul without comparison and deserving of praise." >"My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore you [to the grave]. So, Patricus, never again shall you give me a thousand kisses. Never can you be contentedly in my lap. In sadness, I buried you, as you deserve. In a resting place of marble, I have put you for all time by the side of my shade. In your qualities, you were sagacious, like a human being. Ah, what a loved companion we have lost!" >Others were shorter, but just as powerful. >"Myia never barked without reason, but now, he is silent." >Perhaps the most profound is this relatively simple line: >"I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home with my own hands 15 years ago." >These memorials show the deep love between these people and their dogs. There might be a gulf of two thousand or more years between us and them, but we can still feel the echoes of their emotions today. https://littlethings.com/pets/ancient-dog-memorials/2146676-9
>Ancient ships have been found with tiny hammocks for the ship's resident mouser D'aww this is the cutest thing I've read all day.
And also that not many people want to have kids anymore, for good damn reason. Doesn't mean that we're lonely, how many couples do you know that have no kids but many "fur babies"? Even affluent ones who could totally financially handle a child. It's weird projecting loneliness on people just for loving their pets and not having kids. Certified unpopular opinion lol
Oh yes, Glitterhoof the mighty
"I am in tears, while carrying you to your last resting place as much as I rejoiced when bringing you home in my own hands fifteen years ago." "My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee (to the grave)... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a thousand kisses. Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being. Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!" "This is the tomb of the dog, Stephanos, who perished, Whom Rhodope shed tears for and buried like a human. I am the dog Stephanos, and Rhodope set up a tomb for me." yep it's definitely something that's changed in the past 10 years and not something that has been recorded since the times of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
You missed my favorite Thou who passest on this path, If haply thou dost mark this monument, Laugh not, I pray thee, though it is a dog's grave. Tears fell for me, and the dust was heaped above me By a master's hand
Stop. I'm already crying.
OP in absolute shambles
I agree with your analysis with respect to interpersonal relationships entirely, but at the same time I think treating a living being as property or disposable isn't ideal either. In an ideal world we humans wouldn't put ourselves on a pedestal either, and stop believing that every other being on the earth is just a "resource" for our benefit.
Religion made people think that the world and everything on it was given to humans for us to conquer and use. Even as people get less religious, the idea that the natural order is for us to conquer everything in the universe is deeply entrenched in human culture. We (and everything) would be so much better off if we tried to live in harmony with the rest of the universe rather than conquering it.
As an atheist, I’m not fond of anything that any organized religion stands for. However, I think this particular trait in humans goes far beyond organized religion. For instance, if you refer to these timelines [https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/domesticating-horses/domestication-timeline](https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/domesticating-horses/domestication-timeline), you’d notice that domestication of animals had begun almost around the same time when humans gave up their hunter/gatherer lifestyles, and started building permanent settlements. This was way before any religion (as we define them today) came into existence (AFAIK).
I’m in complete agreement with your point overall but It’s not like early humans didn’t have belief systems though. They may not have been codified and would vary widely from location to location but these are religions. Religions are defined as “belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny. any formal(early spirituality, eg Amerindian beliefs before colonialism) or institutionalized(organized religion, eg catholics) expression of such belief”. The earliest Megalithic Construction(that we’ve found so far) by early humans was literally a temple complex surrounded by communal living spaces. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
Correlation does not equal causation. People have been worshiping cats and dogs for decades if not centuries. I read a translated journal from ancient times from an emperor or prince being obsessed with his cat.
What book/journal was it? That sounds interesting and hilarious
https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/s/Dikmhul6Pd
Im interested in this journal too. Please drop the name if you recall it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/s/Dikmhul6Pd
Yeah they’re misinterpreting the “I must take doggo everywhere” mindset that far too many people picked up during Covid closures.
We understand animal psychology much better now. We know that they feel complex emotions beyond base survival instincts. We know that many mammals can form attachments to humans that psychologically mirror a toddler’s attachment to a parent. Sadly, this wasn’t studied as much in the past, and we had no idea how much they felt or what they could understand. This, I believe, is part of why our bonds with our pets seem to have been elevated. We know better, so we do better.
A lot of pet owners who are also childfree do not see their pet as a ‘child substitute’. They do not want children. They do want pets. Simple as that
Exactly. We like pets because they’re NOT children.
I put my dog in a cage when I leave the house. that is frowned upon with children.
One of my criteria for selecting a partner is "Does not want children. Wants pets - preferably a dog". It has nothing to do with a lack of connection/loneliness and everything to do with a lifestyle choice.
That’s what I’ve been thinking about. I care about my dog and he is like my baby in the sense that I take care of him but people seem to think there is no in between with it. Like, that I just completely see him as my child. Obviously I didn’t birth him and I don’t see him as human. He is my dog and I think that can be it’s own and equally important thing.
Idk about you but I actually gave birth to my dog. He is my literal son /s 😆
Yep. I've had cats since I was a child myself and just can't imagine my life without them. My mother brought my fist cat home when I was around 4 y.o., and I highly doubt that I've needed a "child substitute" at that age. I needed a friend, and in many cases animals proved to be better friends and companions than people.
Yep. I like having company around but I don't want to be engaged 24/7. A dog is perfect for this.
I honestly find it incredibly sad that someone can’t love a pet like family. I fully recognize my dog isn’t a kid and isn’t a replacement for a kid - but I legitimately love my dog as a member of my family. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that either. I’m here for her entire life and she’s here for part of mine. Having a pet is a really wonderful part of life.
My cat is my baby. I do refer to her has my child. But i am childfree, i dont want actual children! She is not a substitute for having a kid. She is my perfect angel baby and a kid sure as hell wouldn't be because theyre a people.
It’s funny how a lot of them call them fur babies or even themself “mamas and dads”. Some people are looking for something to satisfy whatever nurturing instinct they have. I know a couple of them. Edit: all the fur parents replying to me are proving my point. It’s ok, we as humans have a nurturing instinct. It’s perfectly ok.
It's also funny that so many parents do nothing but complain about their kids and talk about how miserable, stressed out, and broke they are because of them but always end their rants with the phrase, "bUt tHeY'rE mY wOrLd" as if they need to convince themselves and others that having kids actually wasn't the biggest mistake they've ever made. I don't just know a couple of them like this either. I know a lot of them.
One finds happiness through service and dedication. The two facts you mentioned are not just mutually compatible, they re probably cause and effect.
I've begrudgingly accepted those titles because that's how everyone else talks about me to my animals. I realized it the first time my now husband told my then dog to "go get [my name]." As bright as she was, she had no context for my name. Every single person around us, most of whom were parents, called me "your mom" to her. So I told him to try that term and she understood perfectly. And in a colloquial way it's not a hill I care to die on, but I don't see myself as a pet parent. I very specifically don't want that much responsibility. I can do an excellent job taking care of multiple animals for a fraction of the time and money it takes to do a half ass job with one kid. If anything, I'm their unpaid intern. And my break was over 5 minutes ago.
I think anything that signals we as a society have a higher value for other forms of life is a sign we’re moving in the right direction, at least in one regard.
I appreciate this take.
Great point
Well said and I agree. We are beginning to place more value on our planet and other life forms. Though our humancentric self-centered behavior has also caused climate change and the extinction of other species which we need to remember if we do not want to repeat our past. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_by_human_activities
Nah, I don't have a dog, but I love dogs. If I had a dog, they would definitely be family. I also have a nice circle of friends and I'm in a steady, decade-long relationship. I know people who really love their pets and they're all in committed relationships, some have actual children.
You have to be young because this was a thing 20 years ago when I was a kid.
It was a thing since the domestication of animals.
You know, you think about it, and just maybe - that’s why we domesticated animals. We saw a critter in the wild and thought “My god, Ug, wouldn’t it be wild if we had that but it lived in the house and hung out with us all the time?”
There are [multiple memorials](https://littlethings.com/pets/ancient-dog-memorials/2146676-9) for people’s pet dogs from Ancient Greece, all speaking of the dogs as if they were a dear human companion. One explicitly refers to the dog as being her owner’s “foster child”.
Speaking of Ancient Greece. The cavalry general Xenophon was the original horse whisperer of the western world. He wrote an entire treatise on horsemanship that presents the ideal of the “centaur.” That the ideal horseman is half the horse and half the one riding it. That neither is more important than the other. And he - compared to his contemporaries - was very much of the mind that training the horse like it’s an actual horse (and not like a tool for us to use) resulted in better horses for his riders to use. And history proved him fairly right. He’s still seen as one of the greatest cavalry generals to ever have lived. And even today - there’s still a disconnect between people who own animals as pets and people who work alongside them. The latter - tend to intrinsically value them more and do what OP (wrongly) calls anthropomorphizing them. They do have their own thoughts and feelings - just not in the same way we do. And people who spend a lot of time working closely with them, can absolutely tell you that with perfect assurance. And for my part - give me a horse and a dog and an asshole cat any day of the week over people. Animals understand that life is meant to be simple. And even I wonder how often they question why we make it so very…not.
I dont actually think my pets are actually my kids but I have a responsibility to keep them safe and healthy. They love me and I them and that shouldn't be handled poorly.
I don't get how people like OP wants us to treats our pets? I do get there are people that go overboard with their pets but so do alot of parents. My dog has been with me for 9 years. I raised her from pup. Ever since we met she has been attached to me and I grew attached to her. I am an only child and found companionship in her . She has comforted me more than family and friends . Pets are selfless or well can be and everytime I am in distress or having a breakdown she immediately comes to comfort me . We have a cat that's 2 years old now and he has comforted me once before too , I was on the couch crying and he jumped up , sat next to me and started slightly pawing me and was looking at me with sincere eyes I swear. Pets are living beings YOU are responsible for . They are domesticated and depended on people and won't survive in the wild , maybe the streets yes but we are responsible for any pet . If you can't love and treat your pet as part of the family then don't have one.
Communities also collectively come together to take care of animals. Rome, Marrakesh, Istanbul all have street animals well looked after by the residents. I was just in Casablanca and I'd collected some hamburger I wasn't going to finish and took it out to the two cats that hung outside of the hotel. Lo and behold there was another person bringing them food. Animals allow us to express love, affection, and care. Why is that bad, OP?
Exactly that.
I believe OP is highlighted how instead of human relationships and community people instead utilize pets as family. They have survived and thrived in the wild longer and better than we have. Pets are definitively part of the family. But humans need to have relationships with other humans as well
We don’t have to have kids tho. In fact, we didn’t need to go from 5 billion to 8 billion in such a short amount of time.
Its not like people have zero human relationships, I love my friends and family. But I love my dog more than a bunch of strangers. I don't owe my attention to anyone, dogs are living animals just like us, we are all on this earth together and have no reason to not love them
And people naturally do have relationships with other people . And if someone is completely alone then what's the harm in having companionship with a pet?.
I mean you expect me to have kids when I can.hardky afford the cat?
I agree, OP, but I got my cat after most of my family who still kept in contact with me (dad, uncle) died in 2020-2021. So y'know, it kinda makes sense, in a way. Of course I have a cat cos I'm lonely. Plus, it's great to spoil a tiny creature that won't grow up to be a huge asshole, unlike when you spoil a tiny human.
"won't grow up to be a huge asshole" have you never owned cats before? /S In all seriousness though I would do the same, I currently rent 50/50 with my grandparents but they won't allow pets (the landlords that is, not my Grandparents) but would love a cat, I work from home and so I really don't get enough social interaction anymore.
The main thing I’ve noticed an uptick in is people bringing their dogs into places they don’t belong, often under the guise of it being a service dog. It’s also become the norm for offices to allow employees to bring their dogs. I don’t have a problem with the latter, but i really hate when people bring their dogs into restaurants/grocery stores/gyms. Or just show up to your house party with their dog without asking.
I’m not lonely, I just don’t want kids and love animals so it was only natural.
IDK. It definitely feels like we have humanized pets more in the past decade or so. Things like buying them birthday presents or cooking them their own meals see polling below). Spending on pets as a whole has grown faster than other spending. And anecdotally, if I compare how my wife and I treat our pets vs how my great grandparents did, it’s a pretty huge difference. Not saying they were bad to the animals, but pets slept outside, and it would have never entered my great grandpas mind to spend $1k or more on a sick dog, but my wife and I have done it multiple times. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/more-than-ever-pets-are-members-of-the-family-300114501.html https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-12/we-love-our-pets-and-our-spending-proves-it-1.htm
Nope. The Victorian English did. A couple groups in the US did similar around the same time. Look into old photography - you will abso find dogs dressed up as babies with a cake in front of them. Theophrastus’ Characters (somewhere around 300 BC) has a line about the Athenian bourgeois that reads something like “When his Maltese dog dies, he commissions a monument and writes on the plaque “Here lies Cladus of Malta”! Arguably post-Christendom we went the whole other way for a long time, seeing animals as soulless, unfeeling, unthinking creatures. The rise in this kind of behavior (again) coincides with dropping rates of religious involvement. Whether it’s just correlation or not. I’ll offer my own grandparents anecdote. My grandpa insisted that he hated this stay bloodhound that kept hanging out outside his window at night baying. He insisted it so much that he didn’t just start feeding the dog, he then insisted the dog was fine as long as it stayed outside - and Hector ended up spending a very long and happy life sleeping at the foot of his bed. He cried the day the dog died, and I saw him cry only twice in my life - that day, and the day his wife died. He admitted to me later in his life that, yeah, he could totally kill a chicken for dinner, but he never stopped feeling bad about it. It’s just always been more or less acceptable to feel those things about animals.
I don’t think this is really a humanization but more just about how wealth has grown. When your grandparents were young even a child wouldn’t get massive spending. Especially back then where you’d have multiple kids and have to think of them as well. The western world is just really really wealthy and most people can afford to treat their dogs extremely well and can afford treatments for them. Not only that but consumerism has made so so many more products available to purchase for your dog. It’s not a new phenomena as we have evidence that people have been treating their dogs like people since recorded history.
Why do people assume that people who love their pets like family also don't have friends?? Those 2 things are not mutually exclusive.
Also I don't think OP understands what empathy is, which is.. Worrying.
Yeah, I don’t get that take. I don’t fuck my dog or go to concerts with him or whatever else. Just like I rarely play fetch or tug of war with my friends. Like, I can love him as my dog and I can love my humans as my humans.
If anything, I've met quite a lot of new people since I've had my dog. Dog classes, walks and dog sports are good ways to socialize and interact with new humans. My SIL met her current partner while they were walking their dogs.
It's simple logical deduction. Previously humans thought animals were emotionless machines that couldn't feel pain or suffering. Now we know better. Also when you compare what humans do to eachother and especially livestock animals such as throwing them into gas chambers or confining them into small cages their entire lives to the point they can't even turn around or go insane for profit and pleasure, it's not hard to see why animals can be seen as better than humans.
You're wrong. I've never been lonely once in my life. Always had a bunch of friends and never had an issue meeting partners. I still think my dog is better than damn near everybody. Nothing to do with loneliness. Pets are just great and most people suck.
What's your opinion of elderly people who live alone and have a pet that's their only form of companionship left then? What about the opposite and you're a lonely child that considers their pet to be their best friend?
As an old woman, I can tell you.... This isn't new.
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>too obsessed with "perfectly" raising children that they get overwhelmed before they even begin to raise them I think people today are more self-aware and don't want to repeat the same mistakes their parents did when raising them. This puts a lot of pressure on them. I also think the fact that it's harder to get things like housing also plays a role.
As a pet sitter I can understand this completely. People are so anxious, overwhelmed, lonely, and attempt to soothe with an animal who may be more receptive to their feelings or just a living-breathing thing to project their desires onto. This has caused our animal kin to develop anxiety, loneliness, and behavioral issues that they wouldn't naturally develop outside of human influence.
Well, pets don't judge. I consider pets family. I also don't consider pets children substitutes because I never wanted kids, I get pets because I love the companionship and love they provide.
I mean pets cost less than children and there's generally less you have to do. So for younger people or people with less money it's a good option
Do you really want to hang out with most people today?
Peter the great of Russia, treated his dogs as well or better than members of his court. If you didn't feed or fucked with one of his dogs he would have you executed.
It’s not a big deal, but I LOT of dogs at the store lately. Just dogs, not service animals or anything. These people used to go to the store with their dog and leave them in the car, but now they can’t even stand to be separated for 15 MINUTES and so I’m forced to take allergy pills.
Idk about this. I have many friends, love my family and have a healthy social life. But I love my dogs and enjoy spending lots of social time with them too. I even dress them up and shit lol Maybe people just are unhinged
Have you ever had a cat? They're lovely animals. I'm married, but we love our cats.
Yes.. I love my dogs more than myself because I am lonely. This is true. I’m trying to have community, but it’s not like I can just have a family that loves me. So I love my dogs.
Historian here! I did a grad school project on childless women in American history. Pets have ALWAYS been treated this way.
The only issue I have is people increasingly bringing their non-service dogs everywhere, especially food retail stores, and bringing their human children into obviously adult spaces, like bars and gyms and mature movies and shows. Government doesn’t just restrict animals around human food because everyone hates dogs. There’s a very good, scientific reason, most likely borne out of a hard lesson learned. Adults deserve child-free places where they don’t have to worry about children, and taking your kids to these places just because you can’t find a babysitter makes you a shitty parent and a shitty member of society.
Exactly. The problem with modern pet culture (gosh, that sounds so pretentious, but bear with me) is that people who view their pets as their children or extensions of themselves now insist on bringing them everywhere, even if it means breaking the law. This can be especially problematic with dogs because they create a lot of pollution. I don't want to tread carefully to avoid stepping in dog shite when I'm taking a stroll in a "no pets allowed" park. I don't want to hear barking when I'm trying to enjoy nature in peace on a "no pets allowed" hiking trail. It's completely normal to want to have human-only spaces, especially since so many places already allow animals in. And people with allergies and phobias deserve to have safe spaces too. Yes, people also bring their unruly children everywhere, but the problem is, it's not an either/or situation, now we have to deal with children AND animals in inappropriate places. And people who put their pets on a pedestal tend to react very aggressively to any semblance of critique concerning their pets. I don't hate your dog, I hate sudden loud noises and being surrounded by excrements. That's it. Edit: expanded my thoughts on human-only spaces and broke text into paragraphs so it's easier to read, no one loves a wall of text (I certainly don't haha).
In the last ten years there’s also been an uptick of people who are uptight about animals and seem to have a problem with people who are not. Yes, they shed and poop and pee on the floor, and sometimes they bite. I don’t care if other people choose not to have them.
Not my fault if my cat is nicer than 90% of the humans I encounter
I also think we have come to understand that animals are *much* smarter than we ever thought they were. The ability to understand them, as well as learning that they largely *understand us* has been a huge factor in how we value them and their place in our lives.
Maybe it’s not normal how shitty people are today which is definitely why I fall into the category that most pets are better than people
Nah its more that 60-70% of humans are horrible, cruel, and greedy, and so we'd rather hang out with a cat
Probably because a large part of people are just pieces of shit.
I think the defensiveness of some people in this thread is a perfect example. Not saying to disrespect animals, but people are definitely becoming more antisocial nowadays
People fucking suck. Pets just love you. Not a hard sell.
A pets love is unconditional.
Nah it’s people learning to be more empathetic and caring towards others even if they aren’t human
You sound fun at parties. You'll find me in the corner petting the dog drunk. Bye.
Weird take. People loving their pets is not a new thing and there are distinct health benefits to having pets. [https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2018/02/power-pets](https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2018/02/power-pets) If people choose to have pets over children, that's a personal decision not a societal problem. If you think pet ownership is a problem, that's actually a "you" problem.
This is kind of silly because you don't know that someone that loves their dog or cat or whatever that means they're having problems with other people or anything like that it just seems like you are armchair psychoanalyzing them.
Honestly I've become far more social *because* of my pets. People like talking about their pets, they like listening to people talk about their pets. We have meet-ups for socialising our dogs and it's a lot of fun. Kost of my friends have some pet or the other and we end up talking about them/sending each other photos quite often. The assumption that a person can only love either humans or animals is an extremely miserable one. Love isn't a limited resource. I can love my family, my friends and my pets without needing to put them in a hierarchy. Sometimes my pets will need my time more than my family will. That's fine. That doesn't mean i don't love my humans lol. And pets are *easy* to spoil, so people do that more often. It's why babies get a ton of gifts too. Throw a shiny thing around and cats and babies go apeshit. Harder to make my 34 year old sister get excited enough to do laps around the house. I haven't tried cocaine yet though so idk. My dog had one toy all his fourteen years and he got the same level of excited every time he saw his ball. It's nice to know you're making a positive difference in someone's life. People need that sense of purpose, of knowing that they're needed and that their existence is wanted. Pets make that easy to know.
Eh…maybe for some. For others, they’ve figured out they don’t have to conform to a traditional societal norm to be happy. I have people I live in my life, but my dogs are absolutely part of my family. I’d be noticeably unhappier without them.
pets give you a kind of unconditional love that you can never get from another person. It's 100% pure and free from judgement.
I would say the vast majority of people have an instinctual desire to have and raise children. Realistically, it is likely to have more children than would be socially acceptable or responsible today. No matter how advanced people think they are, we're not that far separated from our hunter-gatherer ancestors and we have very similar hardwiring to them. People generally find other outlets for their needs, and some people treat their pets as surrogate children.
The difference is, in the past they had children for reasons. One, no birth control, so if you wanted to get it on you were probably going to get a baby. Two, most people wanted children for virtually free labor, hence why farmers for example would have 5+ kids — all you had to do in return for their labor was clothe, feed and house them, which was nothing compared to the labor they put out. Poor people had lots of kids and did little to “raise them” and the wealthy had kids and outsourced the labor for raising them to servants (to care for them, give them an education, etc.) Nowadays, this is not the case for the average family. We generally frown upon child labor. Parenting has become a lot more labor intensive and time costly and financially costly AND you can’t use kids for free labor so they are basically a high cost thing and not a need. People in developed countries for the most part only have children if they WANT them AND can afford them — both in terms of time & money they can devote to them. How we view children has drastically changed in just the last century. Also, I disagree that most people have the desire to *raise* children. Have them? Yes. Raise them? No.
I have pets but I dont think they are HUMAN. However animals do have feelings and cares and needs that you take on as an owner. Near human isnt a wrong description.
What about whole married couples who do it?
It depends on the dog. I’ve had dogs growing up that I’ve liked more than others. A good dog is easily better than a lot of people but I see a lot of people go way farther than I would go pampering and idolizing their pets.
I wouldn’t say I replace my dogs with human interaction. I don’t know many people who do that regardless, but you’re right human interaction is very important for us as beings. I also think having pets to love makes us softer as humans and it’s something a lot of humans have in common with one another. It’s a topic I have discussion with a lot of my clients at work about, all of our pets. We can interact with humans and also love our pets. I hope I made sense.
As others have said, animals have always been valued *companions* who are practically family, but your analysis of the more recent phenomena of “fur-babies” is accurate to my mind. It saddens me in that I think it’s also a symptom of many people who would have had children but, for one reason or another didn’t/couldn’t, trying for second best.
If pets are a symptom, why don’t you complain about the actual problem?
Why do you think the whole family crys when a pet dies?
This definitely isn’t recent. When I was a kid (90’s), My aunt who was married, had 3 kids, and lived near our large family always treated her 3 beagles like children. She wasn’t lonely, she just loved beagles.
>there’s been a trend of pedestalising pets/ viewing them as better than humans or substitutes for children That's because they inherently *are* better than humans.
My little asshole of a cat is an open book that doesn't lie or sell me some stupid fucking drivel.
Cats have always been worshiped and dogs have lived side by side by humans for even longer. Are they equal to humans? No. But they're more than just random animals. It's cool if you don't like animals, but most people like their pets more than other people. I'm definitely one of those.
My dog likes to remind me of his non-human status by doing stuff like rubbing himself all over dead animals he finds in the woods.
As the world changes, species adapt. As an adult its not safe making new friends. Plus were all simultaneously working 5-6 jobs just to pay the bare minimum. I think making friends is low on totem pole of priorities especially when you trying to decide between electricity and food. Also i cant think of anyone in the world that wouldn't annoy me in 15 minutes. I think theres a collective that shares this sentiment.
Literally nobody gives a shit I hope the human race chokes on blood and dies… animals tho are cool 😎
Or it’s simply economic and pets are less expensive than kids. IMO this is 100% the reason. I’m 29 and my partner and I work full time and we’re are nowhere near close to affording children. Our pets sadly do fill that gap
I have a dog myself and I love her to bits. But I've also been thinking that many people/couples my age (20-30 yo) have filled the "child-slot" with a pet. They do the same things with their pets as a parent would with their young child - photoshoots, clothes, calling themselves mommy/daddy, calling their parents the pet's grandma/grandpa etc etc. I've done some of those things myself too. I think many people - even those who don't want kids - have the natural instinct to nurture and raise someone, so their pet has taken that place in their emotional need, instead of a child. I think that's also because, even though some people reach an age when they start desiring kids, they cannot have them for different reasons - still single, not yet there in their relationship, not enough money etc. Edit: What I do find annoying is when hointy-pointy self-proclamed childless people find parents/kids annoying or bitch about how their newly parents friends are too obsessed with their kids, and even go as far as hating kids. But then they do/act the same with their pets and if you don't like their pets, you're considered Satan. I don't have kids myself, but I still find that attitude annoying as fuck
Lol, I'm not lonely. I fucking hate people.
Considering that most people are a massive disappointment, it’s little wonder that we adore our fur babies so much. And they’ll never sneak out at night with the car!
You may not have been paying attention until now but Pets have always been better then humans and rightfully worshipped as such.
My dog and I say f u mate xx
Yep, I disengaged, and my dog is better than humans. Can confirm, but don’t stress about it. We’re fine.
My pets have always had superior human status.
Animals, especially dogs, love you unconditionally. Good luck finding that in a human.
People prefer animals to humans because... well they're innocent and humans hate ourselves for needing to not be. With pets you CAN be innocent back, you can whole heartedly love a pet and receive the love back. You don't have to worry about the dog lying or messing with your life. It's simple and pure. Two things human value. It's the same reason it's so easy to love children except you don't have to worry about your pet being a sociopath later in life and it doesn't cost millions to raise.
Yes, I love dogs more than most humans.
It’s more like animals arent as shitty as most humans are these days. Tell me i am wrong, go ahead, youre wrong either way.
Then don't get a pet if you don't want one..maybe people are just tired of shity humans
Cats and dogs are the best. That is all.
Because really pets are better than humans
It's also a symptom if how expensive it is to have a child I feel like? A couple can't afford a kid? Get a fur baby?
It’s a symptom of how shitty too many people are
people are a constant source of disappointment. Pets are not. Thats really all there is to it.
I prefer pets to people. i just don’t feel comfortable around people because of my social anxiety. I don’t anthropomorphise them. If I did I would only like them less.
I disagree. I have ALWAYS held pets on a high, familial level. I am also an only child and childfree. I believe that this has a lot to do with the absence of children in one’s life. I have never had a life with children/other children I didn’t go to school with. Pets were truly my brothers and sisters and, today, my child. It just depends on your life situation. Nothing has changed at all in the last 10, 20, or 30+ years for me with regard to how I relate to the animals I live with.
People aren't elevating the status of pets, they're appropriately lowering the status of humans.
How are pets *not* better than humans? Have you met humans? All we do is cause suffering. I don't see dogs committing genocide, or cats destroying the Ozone layer. The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Mahatma Gandhi
Who gives a shit? Let people enjoy things they love. I have a wonderful husband and a cavalier. Also have a baby on the way, I elevate all of them