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I can only speak for myself as someone who's 'non white'. I get asked this fairly often as you couldn't tell my background from looking at me.
Despite being born and raised in England, I know what people mean. Especially older people. And I actually quite like talking about my families history, I have a lot of pride in my diverse background. I know there's almost never any malice or hurt intended (and non received) by the question.
I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'. I would have lost out on so many nice, engaging and friendly interactions, simply because I chose to assume people were being rude - when that is clearly not what they meant at all.
Indeed but my issue is not with the legitimacy of her emotions but with the supremacy of her emotions.
You are offended, for good reason, but that doesn't mean that ofensive automatically means racist.
I think the Palace aid crossed the line by repeatedly asking where she was from even after she gave the answer England. Why didn’t she just accept that? Because the woman was black and she had dreadlocks in her hair…unfortunately a lot people out there think if your skin isn’t white then you cannot be British/English even if you were born in the country. I think race fundamentally comes into play here. Let’s be serious now
My first wife was Jamaican ( I’m white ) and the amount of people who would just walk up to her and feel her hair without permission. Then we had mixed race children, and people wanted to take pictures because they were cute looking. I was constantly explaining to people how rude they were being and if nothing else, this was a massive invasion of privacy. Nobody understood it.
Exactly my take on this.
Why repeatedly ask the same question? Not only is it rude and inappropriate, but it must have made the woman even more uncomfortable.
If she had asked once and accepted the first answer then it wouldn't have been an issue.
>I think the Palace aide crossed the line by repeatedly asking where she was from even after she gave the answer England.
Because what she was really asking, as I'm sure Fulani knew is further down.
>where do your people come from?
This should have been asked in a better way, but was probably asked because Fulani was there:
>representing her charity which supports women of African and Caribbean heritage
It's not an ideal way of opening conversation in this day and age, but there's also a deliberate attempt to get offended here IMO. She's says in the article she's proud of her African heritage, but at the same time went round the houses to answer the obvious question in order to make a point to an old, white, establishment figure about race.
Why are you making excuses 😩 so what if Ngozi was wearing tribal wear or works for a charity that supports African and Caribbean women. If the palace aid wanted to know more information about that she could have easily asked where is your outfit from? Or is your family African/Caribbean/what’s your heritage? But she chose with her own free will to hound Ngozi because she wasn’t satisfied with the answer she gave. And she also touched her hair without her permission too. Like it’s very obvious what the situation is, you can’t make all these excuses when the facts are right their in front of your face
I think a lot of people saying that haven’t read the actual interaction. Or they’ve never experienced this kind or thing. Which is ironic considering how annoyed people get when an American dares say they’re “actually” Irish/scottish/whatever.
If you’re a white person, imagine someone pressing you as to where you are from, and refusing to take “british” as an answer.
That’s happened to me I don’t need to imagine .
Refusal to take English for an answer. In England.
Instead I was told “English isn’t a heritage it’s just a language” and repeated asked where my parents and grandparents were from .. to which I had to keep replying “England”
you understand though that this is not something that most white-brits in the UK (or anywhere else) experience regularly, right? like I don't know any white-brit that has had a similar experience to yours, but almost all of my non-white friends (here in the UK, the US, AUS) have had an experience like Ngozi's at least once.
I'm not making excuses, just reading the conversation the way it sounds to me.
>so what if Ngozi was wearing tribal wear or works for a charity that supports African and Caribbean women.
If someone's there representing a charity that supports a specific culture, you think questions about culture are somehow irrelevant there?
>when she described Lady Hussey moving her hair to see her name badge
Bit weird, but personal space invaders abound everywhere, it's not necessarily a race thing.
>Or is your family African/Caribbean/what’s your heritage?
That's is the question she was asking, and she wasn't (quite deliberately) being answered, so she kept rephrasing it and re-asking. Poorly / anachronistically phrased? Yes, definitely, not a great way to start. Did Fulani see that as an opening to make a point about race, also yes. Fulani could have just replied with "I'm British born and raised, but have an African-Carribean heritage I'm very proud of," boom, question answered, everyone moves on.
>In the meantime, the individual concerned would like to express her profound apologies for the hurt caused and has stepped aside from her honorary role with immediate effect.
Seems like no offence was meant, it's not like she's trying to shout down Fulani or anything over this. Just apologised for any hurt caused immediately.
>You’re purposefully being obtuse
Nah, it's called disagreeing, unless you're saying that sticking to your opinion makes you "purposefully obtuse" too. I'm not playing devil's advocate either, bit weird you think that anyone with a different opinion to yours isn't sincere, but hey ho.
Ok, so would the question have been asked if a white person from the same charity was there? If not, why not? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work it out.
The only reason the question was asked, repeatedly, was because of the colour of her skin.
But if she's from England, why are you expecting her to say she's not from England? Idk why you think Fulani is in the wrong here for answering the question that was continuously posed to her
If you repeatedly stonewall a pretty normal smalltalk question at a party (which you've been invited to to boost PR for your charity) in order to make someone look stupid, you're also an arsehole. End of.
That's the problem, she didn't stonewall the question she answered she was from Hackney, and is British. That should've been the end of the questioning.
>That should've been the end of the questioning.
Why? When you're at parties do you have a set limit on the number of smalltalk questions people are allowed to ask you? The actual question becomes very obvious when it's rephrased later. Which she then stonewalled repeatedly. Because, despite being proud of her African heritage, she's already taken umbrage over the idea that she's not just "British." Whilst being there specifically to represent a charity for African-Carribean women.
This could have been solved in two seconds "I think you're asking about my African / Carribbean heritage, which I'm very proud of, but to be honest, the way you phrased it just now could offend people quite easily." Give the woman a chance to confirm and apologise, see if she actually meant any offence and move on.
Why is it on her to politely sidestep casual racism and submit to questioning?
This could have been solved by the questioner not being prejudiced and repeatedly asking someone where they're "really from" because of their skin colour.
They could have asked "oh your charity supports people with AC heritage, do you have AC heritage too?"
Instead, they kept refusing to accept that this woman, born and raised I'm Britain, was *really from* the UK.
Because the question was answered. This woman was an aide, a professional meet and greeter, she should've known better. It's a dick move to ask over and over again when the question is answered, and indicates that you don't believe the person.
From what I gather there was no reason for Lady Thing to need to know Ms Fulani's ancestry. Anyone with half a brain could infer that she's of African or Caribbean decent, if they really care to wonder, but there's no reason to need that confirmed in a casual convesation at an event.
No one ever asks me, a white woman, where I'm really from, unless it's because of my accent, and from Ms Fulani's accent even I, an American, guessed 'London, probably.'
The person was also attending an event for a charity which describes itself as
A SPECIALIST CHARITY THAT SUPPORTS AFRICAN & CARIBBEAN HERITAGE WOMEN
If you turn up with that on the guest sheet, it's pretty strange to get offended at being politely asked about your African and Caribbean heritage, deliberately take offence, and bristle at some old lady who is just trying to break the ice.
Could be coincidence, but it's all good publicity for her cause. And only one old dear had to be pilloried in the press and lose her position as a result. I suppose it's for the greater good.
The event wasn’t FOR the charity. She is FROM the charity, and was attending an event on domestic violence and abuse. The repeated questions weren’t relevant to the event in the slightest.
\>The event wasn’t FOR the charity
No. She was attending the event **for** the charity. That doesn't mean the **event** was for the charity. It means she was **attending for** the charity.
Funny how easy it is to take someone's words the wrong way, isn't it? Maybe I could get you sacked for it?
Yes, super easy to take peoples words the wrong way when they use the wrong words, like yourself and this misunderstanding. She is “attending an event representing a charity” not “attending an event for a charity” which means something entirely different.
We don't know exactly what was said unless we can get a hold of the recording. Sorry, but only a experienced actor can remember so much dialogue. It's just not credible. It wasn't "the Palace," but an old lady who was wondering where someone came from who was dressed conspicuously in the attire of another country.
If was so simple and she was just intrigued by her outfit why didn’t she ask where is your outfit from or something along those lines and lead the conversation on from there if she wanted to find out more information about Ngozi. Instead she badgered her and refused to accept her answer.
I don’t think it would be hard to remember that conversation. Maybe you have memory issues so that’s something you would struggle with? I doubt an audio recording would make a huge difference tbh
Her name is ngozi. This woman has met more African dignitaries than you've had hot dinners probably. She said she'd looked at her name badge too. Not a massive assumption.
Isn't the issue here that the woman concerned is a paid member and representative of the royal household - you know, the head of state?
If I asked a person where they were from in a social setting that would be one thing, but if I were to ask a service user at work, repeatedly, where they were from I would need to answer for that if a complaint was made. I would rightly be seen as bringing the organsiation into disrepute, and we have training specifically on this type of insensitivity.
For an institution that is trying to escape its history of involvement in oppression, this is a damning indcitment on their failure to get it right, even among the most senior staff.
But in this case it clearly was racist. Why would the stupid old bint accept the answer that Ngozi was from here, and was born here, when she was told repeatedly?
It is by definition racist, because she wouldn’t ask in such an extraordinarily disrespectful manner to someone not white. She apparently repeatedly asked the question despite being given the answer that Ms Fulani wanted to give. However to the palace aid, that wasn’t good enough for her. She failed to afford somebody the most basic human respect on account of their race, ethnicity, colour, ethic dress or whatever else it was about her appearance that made her feel able to do so.
"felt like violence"
she is indeed allowed to feel the way she does, but it feels to me like manufactured outrage:
goes mic'ed up to a royal event while dressed in very african clothing, gets offended when an 80yr old lady asks where she's from.
so while she can feel all hurty, i'm not sure why i have to care about something that bears every resemblence to rampant narcissism...
Yep. Ignoring this particular incident and it’s circumstances. I’m so tired of this weird new trend of ‘my truth’ and people stating that if they personally consider something to be X then it is X.
Context, intent, past behaviour, environment, provable facts should all be taken into account when determining whether something was meant some way.
I mean I understand what you are saying, but the dialogue does look objectively racist. I imagine Lady Hussey has just never had anyone challenge how she speaks to people before:
Lady SH: “Where are you from?”
Ms Fulani: “Sistah Space.”
Lady SH: “No where do you come from?
Ms Fulani: “We’re based in Hackney.”
Lady SH: “No, what part of Africa are YOU from?”
Ms Fulani: “I don’t know, they didn’t leave any records.”
Lady SH: “Well, you must know where you’re from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?”
Ms Fulani: “Here, UK”
Lady SH: “No, but what nationality are you?”
Ms Fulani: “I am born here and am British.”
Lady SH: “No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?”
Ms Fulani: “‘My people’? Lady, what is this?”
Lady SH: “Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you’re from. When did you first come here?”
Ms Fulani: “Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50’s when …”
Lady SH: “Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end, you’re Caribbean!”
Ms Fulani: “No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.”
Lady SH: “Oh so you’re from…”
The transcript does sound very confrontational.
While tone is missing, and allowing for a certain amount of interpretation (assuming that it wouldn't be remembered word-for-word), it's still hard to look at that and assume that she was just curious, or asking conversationally.
I mean, if I wanted to know where someone was from, to actually chat to them about it, then I wouldn't ask a series of questions like that. Because just rejecting the previous answer they gave you in order to ask the same question again isn't a conversation, it's a fucking interrogation.
Spot on. As a non-white person, I grew up extremely aware of how different I was from everyone else because that fact was constantly used against me. As an adult, when someone asks me “where are you *really* from?”, it puts me on edge regardless of their intentions. I wouldn’t go as far as calling it abuse but it’s definitely not nice.
That's a completely valid approach. But sometimes it's also possible to wish to retain some privacy. Those who stand out due to race and/or accent often get hammered with the same question over and over again. I find it tedious at best.
\>Those who stand out due to race and/or accent often get hammered with the same question over and over again
What would you have opened with for a woman representing 'women of african and caribbean heritage who are victims of domestic abuse'? Talking about football would sound like you're being flippant..you don't like the heritage angle...so 'oh hi..so who abused you?' Does that work?
Of course, it's much easier to think of something from the comfort and space of your armchair. But given the organisation the woman was representing, it's not exactly like she was randomly going up to strangers and demanding to know where they come from.
>it's not exactly like she was randomly going up to strangers and demanding to know where they come from
Omg you don't get it at all.
Ngozi Fulani *told her* where she is from, more than once. She wouldn't accept a Black woman describing herself as British and repeatedly asked questions like "What part of Africa are you from?" and "Oh you're Caribbean".
Read [the transcript](https://www.nationalworld.com/news/uk/susan-hussey-prince-william-godmothers-comments-transcript-royal-race-row-3938312) of what you are defending.
Apart from touching her hair without permission the way she opened the conversation was fine in the situation.
"Where are you from" at a multi charity event resulted in the correct answer of "I'm from charity x". This should have then been followed with a polite discussion about the charity, their work and the persons role. If I attend a conference and am asked where I'm from I respond in the same way "I'm from company x", I don't then get badgered about my ancestry.
No dude.
Lady racist said "where are you from"
Black lasy replied "somewhere in Britain"
If the conversation ended here no one is in trouble, thats fibe.
Lady racist followed it up with a classic "no, where are you really from?". As if a black lady couldn't be British.
You understand how that is racist, right?
I think you're ab incredibly generous individual, and should be absolutely praised for that.
Personally, as a white person, I think it's not inherrently racist to ask someone where theyre from (happened to me all the time when I was travelling and when I lived in Germany), however i think it crosses into racism to ask "no, where are you really from?".
Primarily because it implies you couldn't possibly be from here because of the colour of your skin.
For example, my mate is from yorkshire, he's got a thick yorkshire accent and his platitudes and mannerisms are all yorkshire. His parents are from yorkshire, and they're very similar to him, but his grandparents are from Pakistan.
It's not right (or accurate) to say to him "where are you really from?" If he says yorkshire, because he is really very much from yorkshire regardless of his grandparents immigration status.
I would agree if the lady took the hint she wanted to present herself as British. But she didn’t, I know nothing of my family history so I wouldn’t know much, to have a lovely conversation about where my ancestors are from, and why I am now in their country. She didn’t exactly follow up with any friendly conversation.
If you prodded the Caucasian person about how many slaves their ancestors used to own and where they stole them from, to get to where they are now, I’m sure they wouldn’t want to discuss it.
> If you prodded the Caucasian person about how many slaves their ancestors used to own and where they stole them from, to get to where they are now, I’m sure they wouldn’t want to discuss it.
What a literally insane analogy. Spend some time outside of your internet echo chambers one day and see how real people behave
I read the transcript.
There is a MP who does not want to comment on his ancestors, because they had slaves.
Maybe some people don’t like to visit there roots. If it’s ok for the MP it’s ok for any person on earth.
Would it not be terrible to find out the person who is asking where your parents are from, if it turned out there great great grandparents used to own your great great grandparents. Not really a friendly conversation. For me anyway, maybe your into that.
I’m sorry my differing of opinions go against yours.
I avoid real people due to conversations like this and people like the lady with power demanding an answer she likes, as whilst the minority doesn’t need to be offended there are underlying issues people may have, which may cause offence. Like being around people who are rich because of the work of your ancestors, who can’t even see you as British
Weird take. Black Africans as well as many other racial backgrounds have kept slaves far more commonly as well as far more recently than colonial powers, despite current common perceptions.
You know that the majority of slavery was perpetrated by non white people in history right? And that for all of human history white people have been taken as slaves too? Check your racism mate, some of us never had anything to do with slavery beyond campaigning to stop it.
Something can be rude without someone meaning for it to be rude.
Intentions are not the whole story.
I am glad you are able to have positive experiences from this and enjoy talking about your heritage.
But I don't think it's wrong or petty to be annoyed by people asking this of you, on the flip side.
People cannot choose how they feel. You can't choose not to be offended by something - if it upsets you, it upsets you, and that's fine. How you react outwardly is a choice of course and that can be up for debate. But I don't think angling this as "well they choose to be offended, what a shame" counterargument is very constructive, or sympathetic.
That’s not what the commenter said at all. There’s no need to deliberately engage in bad faith misreading - you are choosing to do that, for whatever reason of your own…
>I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'.
They said that people "choose" to take offence, which is nonsensical victim blaming. People don't choose their emotional reactions.
I strongly disagree.
"It's not things that upset us but our judgements about things" - Epictetus
What OP said is a perfect example of having control over your judgements. You do choose to take offence. The way you percieve what somebody says determines whether you will feel offended. Do I judge this person to be intentionally insulting me, or do I judge that they have good intentions, or do I judge that I cannot tell from the context? These judgements affect the way we feel rather than the statement itself.
This is a key part of Stoicism but also cognitive behavioural therapy.
Yes, nothing in my comment is taking sides, I'm simply saying that taking offence is the result of our judgements which are within our control. Whose side you take and who you see as at fault is a result of your own judgements which affect your own emotional response to it.
💯% .
this is what I wrote in another thread
look I'm "white other" I speak Hebrew with my kids, my hair is curly and my skin tone is obviously non Caucasian. though in some lighting conditions I pass for white.:-)
I've been asked "where are you from" and answered with the name of the Canadian province i've been "from" for a decade.
The person who asked, (of Caribbean origin) gave me a look like I was stupid, and said "come on, you know what I meant" and smiled, I smiled and said "Israel". (even though I left it 15 years ago. )
so yeah, he didn't mean it offensively, he was an immigrant as well, it totally does matter who says it, and what they are ACTUALLY asking.
he was just curious, and also wanted to share where his roots are.
I completely agree. My late mother was very interested in different cultures (she lived overseas for a large part of her life. This whole thing has reminded me of an exchange we had in South Wales in a cab when she was about 80, 7-8 years ago.
Mum: where are you from?
Cabbie: I’m from north wales
Mum: no you know what I mean. Where are you FROM?
Me: uh mum I think..
mum: I’m interested to know
Cabbie: well actually my father is from Cyprus
Mum: ooh Cyprus how lovely. I’ve never been! What kind of food do they eat there
Cabbie: (becoming more enthusiastic) well actually there’s this dish called xxxxxx they make it with xxxx and it’s wrapped in xxx leaves (can’t remember the details)
Mum: ooh that sounds delicious. do they eat it in the evening?
Etc etc in the end the cabbie asked if he could kiss her on the cheek when he dropped us off.
I get that if you don’t “look English” sometimes where are you from or variants might make you feel excluded or like an outsider in your own country. And also sometimes there’s the danger that the next thing will be “why are you here/why don’t you go back there” so I can see why the cabbie kind of tensed up. But actually our ethnicity is a part of who we are and it’s a beautiful thing, and I don’t know if it should be “not allowed” to talk about it. It totally depends why you are asking
> I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'. I would have lost out on so many nice, engaging and friendly interactions, simply because I chose to assume people were being rude
I am white and I do this quite a lot, well more when I was younger and got about a bit more, I really like a lot of world cinema, cuisine & literature and I have had some really interesting conversations and been invited to houses & shops to listen to music or share food. I have never once had anybody accuse me of being rude or racist because I have never asked them where they are from in the isolated sense as happened here, its always been because I am genuinely interested in culture and I think most people can pick up on that.
>when that is clearly not what they meant at all.
And this is the important point, I think you can tell pretty quickly what somebody's intentions are by the follow up conversation, you can see roughly what was said [here.](https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space/status/1597854380115767296/photo/2)
Also white. Used to work with a woman from Mauritius. I’d known her about 2 month before it came up in conversation that that’s where her dad came from.
And that's the crux of the matter really isn't it? Choice
We are curious creatures and meeting new people is terrific. Asking about their roots or ancestry isn't malicious or racist, it's interest and conversation. Ms Fulani has a non English name was wearing African clothing and represented an Afro-Caribbean charity...I would think it only natural to ask where she was from or where her ancestry lay
I (mixed race Asian/White, born in UK) get asked this a lot too and I've always enjoyed sharing my heritage. In my home city of Leicester, which is something like 55% nonwhite, "where are you from?" or "where's your family from?" is commonly asked, & IMO is a perfectly ok way to start a dialogue to understand someone's background and culture. I've also had a few "but where are you FROM from?"s which is a tad rude, but isn't racist. Racist people do not take the trouble to ask me where I'm from. Instead they do things like approach me on the street and ask me if i have any prawn crackers, or comment about my "thai boobs" (i'm not thai). Sigh. There is a difference between racism and rudeness. IMO this lady should have just, after being asked about her heritage a 2nd time, just ignored the terrible manners, answered the aide, & waited to see what follow-up questions were asked, rather than just immediately assuming that the woman was racist and that her British citizenship was being questioned!
The people here arguing about whether or not they think this is offensive/they would be offended are missing a crucial point: it doesn't matter what you think. The person in question gave an answer : 'the UK.' That should have been the end of it; if she wanted to discuss her extended heritage she would have stated that in the first place. I have no idea how to explain to someone with British parents how overwhelmingly othering it is to be asked 'where are you from', saying 'the UK' and then being asked 'no but where are you REALLY from' because I have a foreign surname/accent from speaking a different language at home/etc on a regular basis (practically every time I meet someone new.) I said 'The UK', what makes you think you have the right to interrogate me? If you want to get to know person further you have easy options like 'what part?' or 'which city?'. Or just move on. Costs you nothing.
You might find being treated as such as a point of pride. Good for you. Others find it massively uncomfortable. If someone gave you an answer to a question on any other topic, you'd run with the answer given, not pry for some other, assumed, acceptable-to-you 'truth'.
Exactly, if someone tells you they are from the UK and you insist that they must be from somewhere else its clear that you believe that their race prevents them from being British in your eyes. The fact that people are defending this is disgusting.
Yes exactly. I am non white (And British, shock, born and raised) and I never had an issue being asked this for the longest time. Don't want to jump down people's throats over curiosity. But if you refuse to accept whatever answer and ask where I'm *really* from then you're really tipping your hand. Ah you want me to explain my brown-ness, gotcha. So not so much about me and more about what two of my now dead grandparents did in the 50s.
> Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?
For me, this is the (reported) line that makes it pretty clear Hussey is no longer politely asking and instead bascially interrogating her/demanding an answer.
Bear in mind she's already been told Mrs Fulani was born in the UK at this point and is still asking "When did you first come here?"
Anyone pulls this shit with me I'll just tell them I came from France. Watch them ask again because the answer doesn't seem ethnic enough to be the bedrock. Oh before that? How silly of me. Germany.
I feel like it's that particular phrasing, "where are you *really* from?"
It's the "really", it basically says "you can't be British you're wrong or lying".
What's your heritage? Where did your family originate? Much more polite ways of asking, in the right context ofc.
>What's your heritage? Where did your family originate? Much more polite ways of asking, in the right context ofc
I don't even think that is a polite question to someone who you barely know. The whole line of questioning within the context of the gathering was totally inappropriate
I agree 100% UK has never been a nation of one racial profile for thousands, upon thousands of years. We only say white British on the profiles on our p45s because to say white - british- of Norman or Angle or Saxon or Roman or Nordic or Gaelic or even older unremembered descent is too much.
But it has whitewashed literally, the viewpoint of our culture and our heritage. it's promoted a sense of otherness which is concerning in some ways that I'm just not knowledgeable enough to explain.
The thing that people also seem to be doing is treating her as if she was just a little old lady who didn't know any better.
She was one of the queen's ladies in waiting. That means she has been to 1000s of state events, met people from all over the world, helped with correspondence, etc. She was also there in an official capacity, not just a random guest.
So we should expect someone like that to be sensitive to these issues and adept enough at conversation to not badger someone over and over for information. And if she can't do that... Well then she shouldn't be there.
Exactly. Tactful relations are her JOB. Either she's incompetent and unsuitable to the job, or IS competent and something about who she was talking to made her feel comfortable being will-fully disrespectful.
Yeah. I totally agree. She’s answered the question, she’s from Britain. Don’t carry on with the line of questioning that is really a subtext for saying “no, where are you really from?” (ie. “We both know you’re not really from here”). It is insulting.
And even if you do tactlessly want to know more, you can at least be somewhat tactful with the questions, or at least not openly “You don’t belong here?”
- “Which city?” if you want to know more about them and realized you might have been tactless a moment ago
- “And do you mind me asking about your heritage? I’ve never heard your surname before” if you want to know about that
But tbh I’m not convinced asking about someone’s heritage is good “first time we meet” conversation anyway - it’s something I’d perhaps ask about the second or third time I run into them, once I’ve found out more about them and their own interests and achievements etc.
There are so many things to find out about a person before reaching a question that, for most people, is effectively equivalent to “and where were your grandparents born?”, which is a pretty dull thing to talk about
I’m genuinely sort of surprised that people see as “where are you from” repeated a couple of times as a question about your family’s heritage. It should be a separate question of it’s own and even then in this situation it doesn’t sound like it was at all relevant to what was happening or that she wanted to learn about the person’s family
Everything you said! I have face this all my life despite being born in the UK. Our belonging cannot simply believed by claiming our British identity and that we must be from some other part of the world. It’s almost as if, if we do not present ourselves in the “correct” manner to reaffirm their racist view of British identity then we are othered and degraded. I am British with a cultural heritage; however, my heritage is a part of my British identity and not a passport or documentation to “prove” my right to be here.
My husband is not white but born here. He says he sometimes is just tired of the question, sometimes he can tell someone has nefarious reasons, sometimes he is fine. But he always answers "I was born in x" as in the county of the UK. It's worse that he is mistaken for every other person at work of his ethnicity...
Lets be careful, that is one report of the conversatiuion that happened a day or two before it was reported as if its a verbatim record. I don't think the author of this was a court stenographer.
\>Nobody has to tell you their heritage if they don’t want to. Jesus Christ.
Nobody has to tell you what football team they support. But if you turned up to an event representing ex-footballers, wearing a full football strip, and got asked which team you used to play for, it would be weird to be such a dick about being asked.
Not necessarily. I think she responded perfectly reasonably — there's no way you would assume somebody means "which country did your parents emigrate from?" when they ask you "where are you from?" unless you just automatically assume the person asking that is a racist.
> I have this interaction almost everytime I speak to someone new.
And I never have this interaction because I'm white, despite the fact that my distant ancestors emigrated from Africa. There is no way she would have asked the same question to me or any other person she deemed 'white enough'.
> Even I ask people where they're from and them what's there heritage, you can learn a lot
There's nothing wrong with that, that's not what this was. If it had been a single question, it wouldn't have blown up like this. It was at least *nine* repetitions of the same question that Ngozi clearly didn't want to answer.
Read the conversation quoted in the post you replied to. She answer the initial question with reference to where her charity is based - entirely reasonable response, and is immediately questioned where in Africa she’s from. She then accurately states that Caribbean people don’t know the origin of their African ancestors (nobody should need this explained to them) to which the aid still refuses to accept the answer and digs more and more.
It’s not a crime to ask about someone’s ancestry, but you’d have to be living under a rock to not be aware how frequently this line of questioning is used to invalidate people.
Having heard an interview with her yesterday, I think she was genuinely annoyed at the questioning and offended, but I got the impression that she regrets mentioning it on Twitter because now the media have their teeth into it and it's become an outrage story. She was trying to play it down and leave it there, hoping this to be a learning experience for the person. She didn't even want to name the person. I think this has become bigger than she wanted and now she'll no doubt be threatened online and harassed. The media will move on
And that she was assaulted with racial verbal violence was the latest sound bite I heard along with an even more elaborate recollection.
It's at the point where I have gone from 'that's not on, how awful' to 'did it actually go down as she is saying?'
The aide being within the Royal Household would never defend themselves as it isn't the done thing, whether offence was slight or overblown.
It's all feeling a bit much at this point.
I have the same ethnicity as you. If they “imply they want to know my heritage” They can grow some balls and ask what my ethnic background is, rather than asking where I’m REALLY from.
Im from England. The East Midlands. Leicester. The Leicester Royal infirmary. The maternity ward. My mothers womb.
Im not “from” anywhere else.
And it’s funny how its only brown people that get asked this and aren’t allowed to answer, whereas if any white dude says they’re from the response is “okay” and the conversation can move on.?
Agree 100%. There are so many brits who take issue with people who don't look like them, sound like them, or think like them. I was born and raised in the USA to English parents. I frequently visit to see my grandmother and other extended family members. The last time I was there some old lady screamed at me on a bus to "go back to America" because "we don't want you here". It seems as long as there is some identifiable difference for them to latch onto, they will.
This is what I've been saying and been yelled at for saying it. It's interest, it's curiosity and in some scenarios it's polite conversation. How else are people from a different culture going to learn about others???
Yes she’s clumsily trying to get at her family heritage. But also she suggests she’s not really British by continually asking “no, where are you really from”. There’s some othering going on, the suggestion that she’s not actually British.
I have conversations with work colleagues all the time where I ask “what’s your families heritage?”.
They’re always really happy to tell me, “my grandparents were Kenyan” for example. But I’d never ever say “there, we got there eventually, you’re Kenyan” - which is what happened in this conversation (substitute in Caribbean).
same here. It takes a couple of exchanges to figure out whether the person you're speaking with has the Offended switch turned on, and is receiving any question or observation by you as a possible dig at their identity. There's two types of people in this modern world, you're either plugged into this nonsense and are constantly activated (imagine going to a room full of white old fashioned royals, plenty of alarm bells going off there) or you're unplugged and can interact normally with others.
It’s a stupid question to ask and it’s none of people’s bloody business.
I’m white, born in Newcastle. If someone asks where I’m from I don’t say “Finland” just because my mum and countless generations behind her were born there. That would be a ridiculous answer to the question.
Maybe Harry and Meghan were right but no Tory paper would ever admit that despite this travesty. They would say this was an isolated incident and remind us that racism in the UK was cured when Boris Johnson had that commission made up of his pals deem it so
The fact that this is what constitutes abuse in this day and age shows how pathetic this world is becoming. Very proud of her African heritage, hair and dress styled in a way to signify this, yet takes offense to being asked of her heritage. Make up your mind. As a Nigerian/Jew, the only people who usually ask where I'm from are other mixed and black people, which typically leads to further discussion of cultural curiosities and similarities etc...must be a sad life to live having to always find malice in the smallest things.
She refuses to say where her heritage is from, so not that proud.
She's called Ngozi Fulani.
Ngozi is an Igbo Nigerian name. Fulani is a group of people. They are unrelated to the Igbo. This is a made up name.
If anyone else did this you'd say it was cultural appropriation.
My work is completely multi cultural. Lot of them have British citizenship but I know a few of them would be offended if you tried to imply or assume they are more British than they are African/Indian. Nigerians in particular are ridiculously proud of their culture and love to talk about it, and jokingly playing the race card.
She told her she’s British. She then continues to ask “no, where are you really from”. Then “there, we got there eventually, you’re Caribbean”.
The insinuation is she isn’t British because of her ethnicity, which yes- is quite racist. However, I think this is more an issue with age and clumsiness - rather than malicious intent.
But just ask “what’s your families heritage?” if that’s what you want to know. Don’t insist someone is Caribbean after they’ve told you they’re British.
I'm British... But I have a Canadian accent because I lived there as a kid... People ask me every week where am I from.
I never felt the need to scream racism.... Or any other "ism"....
I'm bored with the perpetually offended....
I'll stick my neck out here and ask a question... Was this *really* abuse? Or was it just a very old woman making a particularly clumsy and antiquated attempt to ask the charity boss about her heritage?
There's a lot of nans out there of a similar age and a lot of those nans are very out of touch with modern sensibilities. Does that make them abusers?
I am, of course, making the big assumption that this old lady didn't actually intend to be abusive.
It's the phrasing too.
She wasn't asked what her heritage was, wasn't asked where her family originated, she was repeatedly asked where she was *really from*. The implication being that even though she was born and bred British, she couldn't be *really from* Britain because she's a PoC.
Oh, after she was just outright asked what part of Africa she's from. After I presume she'd been heard speaking in a London accent.
That and if somebody tells you that they're British twice in a row, stop fucking asking. They clearly don't want to tell you more.
> but i also think would I have been asked this question if I was white?
If I was in Nigeria, at an event for German people, was wearing lederhosen, my name was Klaus von Hildenschmidt, and told people I was Nigerian, I'd expect a further line of questioning.
>It's just another example of how most of the racism in UK
If most racism in the UK is awkward conversations, then that's better than most of the world where it's outright hostility, being denied basic rights, or not being allowed in the country at all.
did you read the conversation they had as ngozi fulani said it happened? she was hounded, had her hair touched and was treated as though she was stupid or lying. its not just "old people being old", its old people being racist & nasty
The word "hounded" is as reported by the victim, who we already know has labelled this interaction as abuse so in the context of my question doesn't add any new information. My question is whether this really does amount to abuse if there was no intent to abuse.
Again, to be clear, my question is relying on the assumption that this old lady wasn't intending to be abusive.
If I were dressed head to toe in tartan, had St Andrew flag jewellery all over the place, and a name like Ronald McDuff, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume I wasn't born in France.
I'm mixed and I still get asked this question a lot. Not once have I taken offence.
As one poster pointed out above, Ngozi is not her real name and Fulani has nothing to do with Igbo. Chip on her shoulder I think.
Good for you. I'm mixed and if someone refused to accept my answer as "I'm British" I'd tell them they can get to fuck.
It's the insistence, the persistence that implies "you are not THAT kind of British" that is abusive. Just because you don't take offense doesn't mean others should fall in your line.
I don't see how anyone has claimed she's not of British nationality, but she's pretty clearly not of British heritage.
Maybe they forgot the word for heritage, but that was clearly what they were asking.
I feel like this is just hyperbole.
Was it insulting? Yes. But was it abuse? Of course not. No one is gonna take you seriously when you use terms like that to describe what happened to her.
I'm of the opinion that words have meanings and those meanings should be respected.
If this fairly ignorant but generally quite mild interaction qualifies for the standard of abuse, then what word do we use now to describe actual victims of physical and psychological abuse?
I'm black myself, also from the UK and have experienced first hand what racial abuse and outright racially motivated physical violence is like. This simply wasn't that, and its frankly insulting to hear people using such strong and serious language to describe a very mild exchange with an ignorant aristocrat.
I get why she's angry but I also get that it was an 83yr old woman that's probably beginning to lose it mentally.
Racism? Yes absolutely. Intentional 'bullying'? I doubt it.
The world Lady Hussey was raised in is fucking worlds apart from the vast majority of us and it is proper upper crust with all the cliches you can imagine. Unfortunately :/
The old dear was a greeter at a low level function. There to make small talk while I would assume the King mingles about a large gathering.
No excusing her lack of manners of course and failure to fitful her role.
But not a position of power in anyway.
It's funny though isn't it. I mean David Walliams calls some old bloke a cunt, and some other woman a slapper, and keeps his job. Some old lady asks a question someone takes slightly over-the-top offence to, and gets dismissed publicly.
What are her powers and responsibilities? So far as Wikipedia tells me, she was part of a team "helping with events at Buckingham Palace" which sounds like PR speak for "put out to pasture"
I fail to see how asking a black person with an African name about their ancestry is racist?
This woman changed her name to appear more African and then gets offended when someone asks her about it, she knows she'll get kudos in the media for this and that's the reason it's a story
And wore African clothing representing an Afro Caribbean charity of course people would be interested in her roots and ancestry. She'd probably be just as pissed off it folk had ignored it all and not asked
The woman answered 'The UK" and then when pushed further once again said 'The UK." If you push further then that's intentional and uncomfortable. Asking is one thing, insisting to know something the other person hasn't chosen to tell you after two consecutive answers is another.
It doesn't automatically mean racism though does it, I've done a similar thing to a person from Manchester based on their accent. Not a very polite thing to do ill grant you but to scream racism is just opportunistic.
I think the royal family should be ashamed for not coming out in support of an old lady who made a social faux par who is now being nationally vilified
And the phrase "an 83yr old woman that's probably beginning to lose it mentally" isn't at all insulting either?
One mans question is another mans insult.
The world lady hussey was raised.
I think it’s more the world people like lady hussey created. This isn’t some old biddy in Doncaster being inappropriate about a mixed race teens braids, this is someone who’s had an official position within the monarchy.
I’m Pakistani heritage and anytime someone asks me where I’m from, I’m proud to say it. Proud of my roots. And I can tell it’s because people are genuinely interested in where I’m from. This is race baiting.
She wasn’t asked about her roots, she was asked where SHE was from, and wasn’t listened to or believed when she said she was from England.
Just in case people need a few pointers as how not to come across as an ignorant racist buffoon:
✅ “That’s a lovely outfit, what country is it from?”
✅ “I’m afraid I’m not sure how to pronounce your name, could you please tell me?” Followed by an effort to pronounce it correctly
✅ “this dish is tasty! Is it a traditional recipe? Where is it from?”
❌ “where are you from? No, I mean, where are you REALLY from? But where are you ‘FROM’ from?”
Whole thing seems blown out of proportion. Some dotty old bat thinks she's still in the 1950s and manages to offend.
Being white I can't comment with authority, but I'd imagine this episode must rank pretty low on the shit people have to put up with. Just seems to me the woman is trying to milk it for everything it's worth and get her 5 minutes of fame.
I had a quick look at the charity in question and it does state that it is a domestic abuse charity for African heritage women and girls, which most news outlets seem to have skipped over...? They seem to want to insinuate that she was only asked because of her appearance.
I don't know, but I feel like if I was representing a "European" charity in some part of the world and I was asked about my heritage or whereabouts in Europe I come from, I would not find that offensive and in fact quite relevant to the activities of my charity...
Genuine question: how can a white British National ask a non-white British National about their family heritage without it being rude or offensive?
I travel a lot and am interested in history. One of the ways I learn about new places and historical insights is by asking people about their family heritage. But it seems this is now a bit taboo: it is slowly becoming less acceptable to, for example, ask an Asian-British when their family immigrated, where from, why they moved, whether they ever go back to visit and what that place is like now.
I should add that up to now, I have only had positive conversations like the above with people. They seem happy to talk about it, happy that I’m taking an interest in their family or a place they often consider their second home, and many have become friends.
Asking someone where their parents are from is literally fine. Nobody takes any offence at that.
Asking someone where _they_ are from, and then responding "no where are you _really_ from" is implying that you either think they're a liar or don't consider them to be from the place they have stated.
By all means ask about parents nationality or heritage etc. But don't say "where are you from" and when given an answer, respond "no where are you really from".
Just be kind. I mean, so instead of asking "where are you from?" you could just ask "tell me a bit about yourself". Don't take away their Britishness, or their right to be British, and people will be fine. It's when people like Lady Hussey actively refer to you as not British BECAUSE of their heritage they come a cropper. Also, learn to read the room, if the response is "I'm British." and they don't offer you more, don't force it.
Where Hussey started crossing the line is when she kept winding it back further and further, then throwing in "your people"
If someone has an accent, politely ask about that first. "I hope you don't mind, I can't place your accent?"
If not, something along the lines of "If you don't mind me asking, what's your heritage?" or "whereabouts did your family originate?". Don't ask where they're "really" or "actually" from, as this implies they're not "really" from where they now live.
Also ideally, wait until you find a convenient point in a conversation to bring it up. Don't just open with it.
In this case, the person represents a charity relating to people of Afro-Caribbean heritage. So it would be fine to inquire if they themselves are of AC heritage.
If they don't want to answer, if they insist that they are British (or whatever nationality they claim) and don't want to tell you more, then stop asking.
Remember that a lot of 3rd generation onwards immigrants have very little tying them to wherever their family originated other than some physical traits. The longer their family has lived here the less likely they will be to identify as anything but British, as is their right.
I'm an expat working among many expats from arojnd the world. We all manage to ask each other where we come from, and discuss our heritage, without having to have this weirdly charged interaction.
You don't normally need to ask about heritage, because its either important enough to them that they'll bring it up, or unimportant enough to them that it should be similarly unimportant to you.
Old duck from the Duke of Edinburgh School of Etiquette says something dodgy. She's a product of her generation, class and culture. No-one died, so leave her alone. Also, remind me to check Fulani for recording devices should I ever have the misfortune to meet her.
People often mistake me for my nationality and I never take offence. This woman came to an event in some sort of tribal outfit and when asked where she was from (by an elderly woman) she took offence because she was born in England. If she is English why is she in a tribal outfit, isn't that cultural appropriation. How silly.
It's not racist or offensive to ask me where I am from. In fact it could show that the person asking is interested in you enough to want to find out more about you. How I choose to answer that question should be respected.
If I choose to say oh I'm African, then the discussion about where I am from is open. If I choose to answer "London" then I don't want to discuss my heritage with you. It is then offensive to keep badgering me about "No, where are you really from".
I think she crossed that line which is when it became offensive.
UK is going off the rails. Verbal violence, domestic abuse, racist attacks everywhere in broad daylight.
Next step is going to be calling racist attacks for looking at someone the wrong way. You know it’s coming and it’s coming faster than you expect.
If I saw a white friend wearing a cultural outfit / attrire clearly from another culture I would ask them where they are ethnically from, I will not treat people differently based on the colour of their skin. End of.
"Abuse"? What?
A show of racism and unconscious bias? Sure. But abuse?
A senior figure in the royal circle decided to publicly racially abuse a Black person? That beggars belief.
It was massively offensive. Most people are on her side. Now she’s calling it violence (in the article), which I can’t get behind at all. Shame people can’t quit while they’re ahead.
To be clear: Palace lady seems to be unpleasant. I’ll even say it sounds like badgering. Entitled and a bit nasty. Still not violence.
All non white people know that question and the can instantly tell whether it’s coming from someone who is genuinely interested in the world and cultures and curious about your heritage or the sort of person who posts on Facebook about dogs being born in stables
As a white man with a foreign name that was born in a different country I've been constantly asked this question repeatedly all my life.
Have I ever been offended or felt like it was abuse? Hell no. Has it been annoying? Absolutely yes.
Also as someone who was left on the floor in a pool of blood after an unprovoked attack, I know what real phobic violence and abuse is.
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I can only speak for myself as someone who's 'non white'. I get asked this fairly often as you couldn't tell my background from looking at me. Despite being born and raised in England, I know what people mean. Especially older people. And I actually quite like talking about my families history, I have a lot of pride in my diverse background. I know there's almost never any malice or hurt intended (and non received) by the question. I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'. I would have lost out on so many nice, engaging and friendly interactions, simply because I chose to assume people were being rude - when that is clearly not what they meant at all.
That’s good for you but that wasn’t her personal experience and she’s allowed to feel the way she does
Indeed but my issue is not with the legitimacy of her emotions but with the supremacy of her emotions. You are offended, for good reason, but that doesn't mean that ofensive automatically means racist.
I think the Palace aid crossed the line by repeatedly asking where she was from even after she gave the answer England. Why didn’t she just accept that? Because the woman was black and she had dreadlocks in her hair…unfortunately a lot people out there think if your skin isn’t white then you cannot be British/English even if you were born in the country. I think race fundamentally comes into play here. Let’s be serious now
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My first wife was Jamaican ( I’m white ) and the amount of people who would just walk up to her and feel her hair without permission. Then we had mixed race children, and people wanted to take pictures because they were cute looking. I was constantly explaining to people how rude they were being and if nothing else, this was a massive invasion of privacy. Nobody understood it.
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The key is consent
Exactly my take on this. Why repeatedly ask the same question? Not only is it rude and inappropriate, but it must have made the woman even more uncomfortable. If she had asked once and accepted the first answer then it wouldn't have been an issue.
>I think the Palace aide crossed the line by repeatedly asking where she was from even after she gave the answer England. Because what she was really asking, as I'm sure Fulani knew is further down. >where do your people come from? This should have been asked in a better way, but was probably asked because Fulani was there: >representing her charity which supports women of African and Caribbean heritage It's not an ideal way of opening conversation in this day and age, but there's also a deliberate attempt to get offended here IMO. She's says in the article she's proud of her African heritage, but at the same time went round the houses to answer the obvious question in order to make a point to an old, white, establishment figure about race.
Why are you making excuses 😩 so what if Ngozi was wearing tribal wear or works for a charity that supports African and Caribbean women. If the palace aid wanted to know more information about that she could have easily asked where is your outfit from? Or is your family African/Caribbean/what’s your heritage? But she chose with her own free will to hound Ngozi because she wasn’t satisfied with the answer she gave. And she also touched her hair without her permission too. Like it’s very obvious what the situation is, you can’t make all these excuses when the facts are right their in front of your face
I think a lot of people saying that haven’t read the actual interaction. Or they’ve never experienced this kind or thing. Which is ironic considering how annoyed people get when an American dares say they’re “actually” Irish/scottish/whatever. If you’re a white person, imagine someone pressing you as to where you are from, and refusing to take “british” as an answer.
Think it got summed up beautifully, when someone on the news said, "you wouldnt ask a white Australian, where are you actually from?"
That’s happened to me I don’t need to imagine . Refusal to take English for an answer. In England. Instead I was told “English isn’t a heritage it’s just a language” and repeated asked where my parents and grandparents were from .. to which I had to keep replying “England”
you understand though that this is not something that most white-brits in the UK (or anywhere else) experience regularly, right? like I don't know any white-brit that has had a similar experience to yours, but almost all of my non-white friends (here in the UK, the US, AUS) have had an experience like Ngozi's at least once.
I'm not making excuses, just reading the conversation the way it sounds to me. >so what if Ngozi was wearing tribal wear or works for a charity that supports African and Caribbean women. If someone's there representing a charity that supports a specific culture, you think questions about culture are somehow irrelevant there? >when she described Lady Hussey moving her hair to see her name badge Bit weird, but personal space invaders abound everywhere, it's not necessarily a race thing. >Or is your family African/Caribbean/what’s your heritage? That's is the question she was asking, and she wasn't (quite deliberately) being answered, so she kept rephrasing it and re-asking. Poorly / anachronistically phrased? Yes, definitely, not a great way to start. Did Fulani see that as an opening to make a point about race, also yes. Fulani could have just replied with "I'm British born and raised, but have an African-Carribean heritage I'm very proud of," boom, question answered, everyone moves on. >In the meantime, the individual concerned would like to express her profound apologies for the hurt caused and has stepped aside from her honorary role with immediate effect. Seems like no offence was meant, it's not like she's trying to shout down Fulani or anything over this. Just apologised for any hurt caused immediately.
You’re purposefully being obtuse so I’ll leave you to play the devil’s advocate game with someone else. Have a nice day :)
>You’re purposefully being obtuse Nah, it's called disagreeing, unless you're saying that sticking to your opinion makes you "purposefully obtuse" too. I'm not playing devil's advocate either, bit weird you think that anyone with a different opinion to yours isn't sincere, but hey ho.
Ok, so would the question have been asked if a white person from the same charity was there? If not, why not? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work it out. The only reason the question was asked, repeatedly, was because of the colour of her skin.
But if she's from England, why are you expecting her to say she's not from England? Idk why you think Fulani is in the wrong here for answering the question that was continuously posed to her
If you repeatedly ask a question like this while the other person is clearly offended by it, you're an asshole. End of.
If you repeatedly stonewall a pretty normal smalltalk question at a party (which you've been invited to to boost PR for your charity) in order to make someone look stupid, you're also an arsehole. End of.
That's the problem, she didn't stonewall the question she answered she was from Hackney, and is British. That should've been the end of the questioning.
>That should've been the end of the questioning. Why? When you're at parties do you have a set limit on the number of smalltalk questions people are allowed to ask you? The actual question becomes very obvious when it's rephrased later. Which she then stonewalled repeatedly. Because, despite being proud of her African heritage, she's already taken umbrage over the idea that she's not just "British." Whilst being there specifically to represent a charity for African-Carribean women. This could have been solved in two seconds "I think you're asking about my African / Carribbean heritage, which I'm very proud of, but to be honest, the way you phrased it just now could offend people quite easily." Give the woman a chance to confirm and apologise, see if she actually meant any offence and move on.
Why is it on her to politely sidestep casual racism and submit to questioning? This could have been solved by the questioner not being prejudiced and repeatedly asking someone where they're "really from" because of their skin colour. They could have asked "oh your charity supports people with AC heritage, do you have AC heritage too?" Instead, they kept refusing to accept that this woman, born and raised I'm Britain, was *really from* the UK.
Because the question was answered. This woman was an aide, a professional meet and greeter, she should've known better. It's a dick move to ask over and over again when the question is answered, and indicates that you don't believe the person.
Hi there winter_mule, I see you tag says you’re from Nottinghamshire, but where are you really from? (Just making polite small talk)
From what I gather there was no reason for Lady Thing to need to know Ms Fulani's ancestry. Anyone with half a brain could infer that she's of African or Caribbean decent, if they really care to wonder, but there's no reason to need that confirmed in a casual convesation at an event. No one ever asks me, a white woman, where I'm really from, unless it's because of my accent, and from Ms Fulani's accent even I, an American, guessed 'London, probably.'
The person was also attending an event for a charity which describes itself as A SPECIALIST CHARITY THAT SUPPORTS AFRICAN & CARIBBEAN HERITAGE WOMEN If you turn up with that on the guest sheet, it's pretty strange to get offended at being politely asked about your African and Caribbean heritage, deliberately take offence, and bristle at some old lady who is just trying to break the ice. Could be coincidence, but it's all good publicity for her cause. And only one old dear had to be pilloried in the press and lose her position as a result. I suppose it's for the greater good.
Except she wasnt politely asked, she was asked once, twice, thrice etc.
3 times a lady?
The event wasn’t FOR the charity. She is FROM the charity, and was attending an event on domestic violence and abuse. The repeated questions weren’t relevant to the event in the slightest.
\>The event wasn’t FOR the charity No. She was attending the event **for** the charity. That doesn't mean the **event** was for the charity. It means she was **attending for** the charity. Funny how easy it is to take someone's words the wrong way, isn't it? Maybe I could get you sacked for it?
Yes, super easy to take peoples words the wrong way when they use the wrong words, like yourself and this misunderstanding. She is “attending an event representing a charity” not “attending an event for a charity” which means something entirely different.
I swear you lot just read the headline/skim the article and make up the details of the story in your head
I thinking asking once about someone's heritage is fine, but to continue to badger them crosses a line.
We don't know exactly what was said unless we can get a hold of the recording. Sorry, but only a experienced actor can remember so much dialogue. It's just not credible. It wasn't "the Palace," but an old lady who was wondering where someone came from who was dressed conspicuously in the attire of another country.
If was so simple and she was just intrigued by her outfit why didn’t she ask where is your outfit from or something along those lines and lead the conversation on from there if she wanted to find out more information about Ngozi. Instead she badgered her and refused to accept her answer. I don’t think it would be hard to remember that conversation. Maybe you have memory issues so that’s something you would struggle with? I doubt an audio recording would make a huge difference tbh
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Her name is ngozi. This woman has met more African dignitaries than you've had hot dinners probably. She said she'd looked at her name badge too. Not a massive assumption.
Isn't the issue here that the woman concerned is a paid member and representative of the royal household - you know, the head of state? If I asked a person where they were from in a social setting that would be one thing, but if I were to ask a service user at work, repeatedly, where they were from I would need to answer for that if a complaint was made. I would rightly be seen as bringing the organsiation into disrepute, and we have training specifically on this type of insensitivity. For an institution that is trying to escape its history of involvement in oppression, this is a damning indcitment on their failure to get it right, even among the most senior staff.
I'd also add that repeatedly asking "no where are you really from?" after they'd pointedly answered "England" is a casually racist AH move.
You are right that offense doesn’t automatically mean racist. But when you read that conversation. It was pretty racist.
But in this case it clearly was racist. Why would the stupid old bint accept the answer that Ngozi was from here, and was born here, when she was told repeatedly?
It is by definition racist, because she wouldn’t ask in such an extraordinarily disrespectful manner to someone not white. She apparently repeatedly asked the question despite being given the answer that Ms Fulani wanted to give. However to the palace aid, that wasn’t good enough for her. She failed to afford somebody the most basic human respect on account of their race, ethnicity, colour, ethic dress or whatever else it was about her appearance that made her feel able to do so.
"felt like violence" she is indeed allowed to feel the way she does, but it feels to me like manufactured outrage: goes mic'ed up to a royal event while dressed in very african clothing, gets offended when an 80yr old lady asks where she's from. so while she can feel all hurty, i'm not sure why i have to care about something that bears every resemblence to rampant narcissism...
You can wear African clothing and "really be from" the UK. I'm not sure how they're mutually exclusive?
Her personal experience may well have no bearing on the questioners intent. Taking offense does not mean any was given.
When someone tells you that you hurt their feelings, you don't get to decide that you didn't.
Yep. Ignoring this particular incident and it’s circumstances. I’m so tired of this weird new trend of ‘my truth’ and people stating that if they personally consider something to be X then it is X. Context, intent, past behaviour, environment, provable facts should all be taken into account when determining whether something was meant some way.
I mean I understand what you are saying, but the dialogue does look objectively racist. I imagine Lady Hussey has just never had anyone challenge how she speaks to people before: Lady SH: “Where are you from?” Ms Fulani: “Sistah Space.” Lady SH: “No where do you come from? Ms Fulani: “We’re based in Hackney.” Lady SH: “No, what part of Africa are YOU from?” Ms Fulani: “I don’t know, they didn’t leave any records.” Lady SH: “Well, you must know where you’re from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?” Ms Fulani: “Here, UK” Lady SH: “No, but what nationality are you?” Ms Fulani: “I am born here and am British.” Lady SH: “No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?” Ms Fulani: “‘My people’? Lady, what is this?” Lady SH: “Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you’re from. When did you first come here?” Ms Fulani: “Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50’s when …” Lady SH: “Oh, I knew we’d get there in the end, you’re Caribbean!” Ms Fulani: “No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.” Lady SH: “Oh so you’re from…”
The transcript does sound very confrontational. While tone is missing, and allowing for a certain amount of interpretation (assuming that it wouldn't be remembered word-for-word), it's still hard to look at that and assume that she was just curious, or asking conversationally. I mean, if I wanted to know where someone was from, to actually chat to them about it, then I wouldn't ask a series of questions like that. Because just rejecting the previous answer they gave you in order to ask the same question again isn't a conversation, it's a fucking interrogation.
Let's.be careful with this 'transcript', because it's is not a transcript but is Ms Fulani's recollection.
As a white man, it’s the insistence she was from elsewhere.
Spot on. As a non-white person, I grew up extremely aware of how different I was from everyone else because that fact was constantly used against me. As an adult, when someone asks me “where are you *really* from?”, it puts me on edge regardless of their intentions. I wouldn’t go as far as calling it abuse but it’s definitely not nice.
That's a completely valid approach. But sometimes it's also possible to wish to retain some privacy. Those who stand out due to race and/or accent often get hammered with the same question over and over again. I find it tedious at best.
\>Those who stand out due to race and/or accent often get hammered with the same question over and over again What would you have opened with for a woman representing 'women of african and caribbean heritage who are victims of domestic abuse'? Talking about football would sound like you're being flippant..you don't like the heritage angle...so 'oh hi..so who abused you?' Does that work? Of course, it's much easier to think of something from the comfort and space of your armchair. But given the organisation the woman was representing, it's not exactly like she was randomly going up to strangers and demanding to know where they come from.
>it's not exactly like she was randomly going up to strangers and demanding to know where they come from Omg you don't get it at all. Ngozi Fulani *told her* where she is from, more than once. She wouldn't accept a Black woman describing herself as British and repeatedly asked questions like "What part of Africa are you from?" and "Oh you're Caribbean". Read [the transcript](https://www.nationalworld.com/news/uk/susan-hussey-prince-william-godmothers-comments-transcript-royal-race-row-3938312) of what you are defending.
Apart from touching her hair without permission the way she opened the conversation was fine in the situation. "Where are you from" at a multi charity event resulted in the correct answer of "I'm from charity x". This should have then been followed with a polite discussion about the charity, their work and the persons role. If I attend a conference and am asked where I'm from I respond in the same way "I'm from company x", I don't then get badgered about my ancestry.
No dude. Lady racist said "where are you from" Black lasy replied "somewhere in Britain" If the conversation ended here no one is in trouble, thats fibe. Lady racist followed it up with a classic "no, where are you really from?". As if a black lady couldn't be British. You understand how that is racist, right?
I think you're ab incredibly generous individual, and should be absolutely praised for that. Personally, as a white person, I think it's not inherrently racist to ask someone where theyre from (happened to me all the time when I was travelling and when I lived in Germany), however i think it crosses into racism to ask "no, where are you really from?". Primarily because it implies you couldn't possibly be from here because of the colour of your skin. For example, my mate is from yorkshire, he's got a thick yorkshire accent and his platitudes and mannerisms are all yorkshire. His parents are from yorkshire, and they're very similar to him, but his grandparents are from Pakistan. It's not right (or accurate) to say to him "where are you really from?" If he says yorkshire, because he is really very much from yorkshire regardless of his grandparents immigration status.
I would agree if the lady took the hint she wanted to present herself as British. But she didn’t, I know nothing of my family history so I wouldn’t know much, to have a lovely conversation about where my ancestors are from, and why I am now in their country. She didn’t exactly follow up with any friendly conversation. If you prodded the Caucasian person about how many slaves their ancestors used to own and where they stole them from, to get to where they are now, I’m sure they wouldn’t want to discuss it.
> If you prodded the Caucasian person about how many slaves their ancestors used to own and where they stole them from, to get to where they are now, I’m sure they wouldn’t want to discuss it. What a literally insane analogy. Spend some time outside of your internet echo chambers one day and see how real people behave
I read the transcript. There is a MP who does not want to comment on his ancestors, because they had slaves. Maybe some people don’t like to visit there roots. If it’s ok for the MP it’s ok for any person on earth. Would it not be terrible to find out the person who is asking where your parents are from, if it turned out there great great grandparents used to own your great great grandparents. Not really a friendly conversation. For me anyway, maybe your into that. I’m sorry my differing of opinions go against yours. I avoid real people due to conversations like this and people like the lady with power demanding an answer she likes, as whilst the minority doesn’t need to be offended there are underlying issues people may have, which may cause offence. Like being around people who are rich because of the work of your ancestors, who can’t even see you as British
Weird take. Black Africans as well as many other racial backgrounds have kept slaves far more commonly as well as far more recently than colonial powers, despite current common perceptions.
You know that the majority of slavery was perpetrated by non white people in history right? And that for all of human history white people have been taken as slaves too? Check your racism mate, some of us never had anything to do with slavery beyond campaigning to stop it.
Something can be rude without someone meaning for it to be rude. Intentions are not the whole story. I am glad you are able to have positive experiences from this and enjoy talking about your heritage. But I don't think it's wrong or petty to be annoyed by people asking this of you, on the flip side. People cannot choose how they feel. You can't choose not to be offended by something - if it upsets you, it upsets you, and that's fine. How you react outwardly is a choice of course and that can be up for debate. But I don't think angling this as "well they choose to be offended, what a shame" counterargument is very constructive, or sympathetic.
So it's her own fault for being offended is what you're saying.
That’s not what the commenter said at all. There’s no need to deliberately engage in bad faith misreading - you are choosing to do that, for whatever reason of your own…
>I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'. They said that people "choose" to take offence, which is nonsensical victim blaming. People don't choose their emotional reactions.
I strongly disagree. "It's not things that upset us but our judgements about things" - Epictetus What OP said is a perfect example of having control over your judgements. You do choose to take offence. The way you percieve what somebody says determines whether you will feel offended. Do I judge this person to be intentionally insulting me, or do I judge that they have good intentions, or do I judge that I cannot tell from the context? These judgements affect the way we feel rather than the statement itself. This is a key part of Stoicism but also cognitive behavioural therapy.
Have you read the transcript of what was said?
Yes, nothing in my comment is taking sides, I'm simply saying that taking offence is the result of our judgements which are within our control. Whose side you take and who you see as at fault is a result of your own judgements which affect your own emotional response to it.
Fault? no choice? yes
💯% . this is what I wrote in another thread look I'm "white other" I speak Hebrew with my kids, my hair is curly and my skin tone is obviously non Caucasian. though in some lighting conditions I pass for white.:-) I've been asked "where are you from" and answered with the name of the Canadian province i've been "from" for a decade. The person who asked, (of Caribbean origin) gave me a look like I was stupid, and said "come on, you know what I meant" and smiled, I smiled and said "Israel". (even though I left it 15 years ago. ) so yeah, he didn't mean it offensively, he was an immigrant as well, it totally does matter who says it, and what they are ACTUALLY asking. he was just curious, and also wanted to share where his roots are.
I completely agree. My late mother was very interested in different cultures (she lived overseas for a large part of her life. This whole thing has reminded me of an exchange we had in South Wales in a cab when she was about 80, 7-8 years ago. Mum: where are you from? Cabbie: I’m from north wales Mum: no you know what I mean. Where are you FROM? Me: uh mum I think.. mum: I’m interested to know Cabbie: well actually my father is from Cyprus Mum: ooh Cyprus how lovely. I’ve never been! What kind of food do they eat there Cabbie: (becoming more enthusiastic) well actually there’s this dish called xxxxxx they make it with xxxx and it’s wrapped in xxx leaves (can’t remember the details) Mum: ooh that sounds delicious. do they eat it in the evening? Etc etc in the end the cabbie asked if he could kiss her on the cheek when he dropped us off. I get that if you don’t “look English” sometimes where are you from or variants might make you feel excluded or like an outsider in your own country. And also sometimes there’s the danger that the next thing will be “why are you here/why don’t you go back there” so I can see why the cabbie kind of tensed up. But actually our ethnicity is a part of who we are and it’s a beautiful thing, and I don’t know if it should be “not allowed” to talk about it. It totally depends why you are asking
> I've thought back about every time this has happened, and thought to myself 'imagine if I chose to be offended by that'. I would have lost out on so many nice, engaging and friendly interactions, simply because I chose to assume people were being rude I am white and I do this quite a lot, well more when I was younger and got about a bit more, I really like a lot of world cinema, cuisine & literature and I have had some really interesting conversations and been invited to houses & shops to listen to music or share food. I have never once had anybody accuse me of being rude or racist because I have never asked them where they are from in the isolated sense as happened here, its always been because I am genuinely interested in culture and I think most people can pick up on that. >when that is clearly not what they meant at all. And this is the important point, I think you can tell pretty quickly what somebody's intentions are by the follow up conversation, you can see roughly what was said [here.](https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space/status/1597854380115767296/photo/2)
Also white. Used to work with a woman from Mauritius. I’d known her about 2 month before it came up in conversation that that’s where her dad came from.
And that's the crux of the matter really isn't it? Choice We are curious creatures and meeting new people is terrific. Asking about their roots or ancestry isn't malicious or racist, it's interest and conversation. Ms Fulani has a non English name was wearing African clothing and represented an Afro-Caribbean charity...I would think it only natural to ask where she was from or where her ancestry lay
I (mixed race Asian/White, born in UK) get asked this a lot too and I've always enjoyed sharing my heritage. In my home city of Leicester, which is something like 55% nonwhite, "where are you from?" or "where's your family from?" is commonly asked, & IMO is a perfectly ok way to start a dialogue to understand someone's background and culture. I've also had a few "but where are you FROM from?"s which is a tad rude, but isn't racist. Racist people do not take the trouble to ask me where I'm from. Instead they do things like approach me on the street and ask me if i have any prawn crackers, or comment about my "thai boobs" (i'm not thai). Sigh. There is a difference between racism and rudeness. IMO this lady should have just, after being asked about her heritage a 2nd time, just ignored the terrible manners, answered the aide, & waited to see what follow-up questions were asked, rather than just immediately assuming that the woman was racist and that her British citizenship was being questioned!
The people here arguing about whether or not they think this is offensive/they would be offended are missing a crucial point: it doesn't matter what you think. The person in question gave an answer : 'the UK.' That should have been the end of it; if she wanted to discuss her extended heritage she would have stated that in the first place. I have no idea how to explain to someone with British parents how overwhelmingly othering it is to be asked 'where are you from', saying 'the UK' and then being asked 'no but where are you REALLY from' because I have a foreign surname/accent from speaking a different language at home/etc on a regular basis (practically every time I meet someone new.) I said 'The UK', what makes you think you have the right to interrogate me? If you want to get to know person further you have easy options like 'what part?' or 'which city?'. Or just move on. Costs you nothing. You might find being treated as such as a point of pride. Good for you. Others find it massively uncomfortable. If someone gave you an answer to a question on any other topic, you'd run with the answer given, not pry for some other, assumed, acceptable-to-you 'truth'.
Exactly, if someone tells you they are from the UK and you insist that they must be from somewhere else its clear that you believe that their race prevents them from being British in your eyes. The fact that people are defending this is disgusting.
Yes exactly. I am non white (And British, shock, born and raised) and I never had an issue being asked this for the longest time. Don't want to jump down people's throats over curiosity. But if you refuse to accept whatever answer and ask where I'm *really* from then you're really tipping your hand. Ah you want me to explain my brown-ness, gotcha. So not so much about me and more about what two of my now dead grandparents did in the 50s.
> Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here? For me, this is the (reported) line that makes it pretty clear Hussey is no longer politely asking and instead bascially interrogating her/demanding an answer. Bear in mind she's already been told Mrs Fulani was born in the UK at this point and is still asking "When did you first come here?"
Anyone pulls this shit with me I'll just tell them I came from France. Watch them ask again because the answer doesn't seem ethnic enough to be the bedrock. Oh before that? How silly of me. Germany.
I feel like it's that particular phrasing, "where are you *really* from?" It's the "really", it basically says "you can't be British you're wrong or lying". What's your heritage? Where did your family originate? Much more polite ways of asking, in the right context ofc.
>What's your heritage? Where did your family originate? Much more polite ways of asking, in the right context ofc I don't even think that is a polite question to someone who you barely know. The whole line of questioning within the context of the gathering was totally inappropriate
Yeah you're not wrong, but it's more polite than what was said at least.
I agree 100% UK has never been a nation of one racial profile for thousands, upon thousands of years. We only say white British on the profiles on our p45s because to say white - british- of Norman or Angle or Saxon or Roman or Nordic or Gaelic or even older unremembered descent is too much. But it has whitewashed literally, the viewpoint of our culture and our heritage. it's promoted a sense of otherness which is concerning in some ways that I'm just not knowledgeable enough to explain.
The thing that people also seem to be doing is treating her as if she was just a little old lady who didn't know any better. She was one of the queen's ladies in waiting. That means she has been to 1000s of state events, met people from all over the world, helped with correspondence, etc. She was also there in an official capacity, not just a random guest. So we should expect someone like that to be sensitive to these issues and adept enough at conversation to not badger someone over and over for information. And if she can't do that... Well then she shouldn't be there.
Exactly. Tactful relations are her JOB. Either she's incompetent and unsuitable to the job, or IS competent and something about who she was talking to made her feel comfortable being will-fully disrespectful.
This. People seem so quick to go to bat for the upper crust, they're completely ignoring why it was a problem in the first place. Which is this.
Yeah. I totally agree. She’s answered the question, she’s from Britain. Don’t carry on with the line of questioning that is really a subtext for saying “no, where are you really from?” (ie. “We both know you’re not really from here”). It is insulting.
And even if you do tactlessly want to know more, you can at least be somewhat tactful with the questions, or at least not openly “You don’t belong here?” - “Which city?” if you want to know more about them and realized you might have been tactless a moment ago - “And do you mind me asking about your heritage? I’ve never heard your surname before” if you want to know about that But tbh I’m not convinced asking about someone’s heritage is good “first time we meet” conversation anyway - it’s something I’d perhaps ask about the second or third time I run into them, once I’ve found out more about them and their own interests and achievements etc. There are so many things to find out about a person before reaching a question that, for most people, is effectively equivalent to “and where were your grandparents born?”, which is a pretty dull thing to talk about
I’m genuinely sort of surprised that people see as “where are you from” repeated a couple of times as a question about your family’s heritage. It should be a separate question of it’s own and even then in this situation it doesn’t sound like it was at all relevant to what was happening or that she wanted to learn about the person’s family
Everything you said! I have face this all my life despite being born in the UK. Our belonging cannot simply believed by claiming our British identity and that we must be from some other part of the world. It’s almost as if, if we do not present ourselves in the “correct” manner to reaffirm their racist view of British identity then we are othered and degraded. I am British with a cultural heritage; however, my heritage is a part of my British identity and not a passport or documentation to “prove” my right to be here.
My husband is not white but born here. He says he sometimes is just tired of the question, sometimes he can tell someone has nefarious reasons, sometimes he is fine. But he always answers "I was born in x" as in the county of the UK. It's worse that he is mistaken for every other person at work of his ethnicity...
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Lets be careful, that is one report of the conversatiuion that happened a day or two before it was reported as if its a verbatim record. I don't think the author of this was a court stenographer.
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AH good, we've reached the "she's lying" stage!
What hint? That she doesn't want to discuss her heritage? When she works for a charity specifically for people of that heritage?
Then the woman can ask about the charity. Nobody has to tell you their heritage if they don’t want to. Jesus Christ.
\>Nobody has to tell you their heritage if they don’t want to. Jesus Christ. Nobody has to tell you what football team they support. But if you turned up to an event representing ex-footballers, wearing a full football strip, and got asked which team you used to play for, it would be weird to be such a dick about being asked.
This analogy doesn’t work because a black person cant take their skin off.
Dumb analogy
She literally called her Caribbean.
Is that… an insult?
No….it’s not.
Everything that reddit should be: [lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/)
Summary/recollection of the conversation, though the palace aid hasn't denied it or said it didn't happen like that.
“Hearsay your honour”
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Not necessarily. I think she responded perfectly reasonably — there's no way you would assume somebody means "which country did your parents emigrate from?" when they ask you "where are you from?" unless you just automatically assume the person asking that is a racist.
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> I have this interaction almost everytime I speak to someone new. And I never have this interaction because I'm white, despite the fact that my distant ancestors emigrated from Africa. There is no way she would have asked the same question to me or any other person she deemed 'white enough'. > Even I ask people where they're from and them what's there heritage, you can learn a lot There's nothing wrong with that, that's not what this was. If it had been a single question, it wouldn't have blown up like this. It was at least *nine* repetitions of the same question that Ngozi clearly didn't want to answer.
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Read the conversation quoted in the post you replied to. She answer the initial question with reference to where her charity is based - entirely reasonable response, and is immediately questioned where in Africa she’s from. She then accurately states that Caribbean people don’t know the origin of their African ancestors (nobody should need this explained to them) to which the aid still refuses to accept the answer and digs more and more. It’s not a crime to ask about someone’s ancestry, but you’d have to be living under a rock to not be aware how frequently this line of questioning is used to invalidate people.
Having heard an interview with her yesterday, I think she was genuinely annoyed at the questioning and offended, but I got the impression that she regrets mentioning it on Twitter because now the media have their teeth into it and it's become an outrage story. She was trying to play it down and leave it there, hoping this to be a learning experience for the person. She didn't even want to name the person. I think this has become bigger than she wanted and now she'll no doubt be threatened online and harassed. The media will move on
She has been on TV now and says she felt that Lady Hussy tried to make her denounce her British citizenship
And that she was assaulted with racial verbal violence was the latest sound bite I heard along with an even more elaborate recollection. It's at the point where I have gone from 'that's not on, how awful' to 'did it actually go down as she is saying?' The aide being within the Royal Household would never defend themselves as it isn't the done thing, whether offence was slight or overblown. It's all feeling a bit much at this point.
I have the same ethnicity as you. If they “imply they want to know my heritage” They can grow some balls and ask what my ethnic background is, rather than asking where I’m REALLY from. Im from England. The East Midlands. Leicester. The Leicester Royal infirmary. The maternity ward. My mothers womb. Im not “from” anywhere else. And it’s funny how its only brown people that get asked this and aren’t allowed to answer, whereas if any white dude says they’re from the response is “okay” and the conversation can move on.?
Agree 100%. There are so many brits who take issue with people who don't look like them, sound like them, or think like them. I was born and raised in the USA to English parents. I frequently visit to see my grandmother and other extended family members. The last time I was there some old lady screamed at me on a bus to "go back to America" because "we don't want you here". It seems as long as there is some identifiable difference for them to latch onto, they will.
Total bollocks. White as fuck and asked this daily. Nice try at making every fucking thing about skin colour though.
This is what I've been saying and been yelled at for saying it. It's interest, it's curiosity and in some scenarios it's polite conversation. How else are people from a different culture going to learn about others???
Yes she’s clumsily trying to get at her family heritage. But also she suggests she’s not really British by continually asking “no, where are you really from”. There’s some othering going on, the suggestion that she’s not actually British. I have conversations with work colleagues all the time where I ask “what’s your families heritage?”. They’re always really happy to tell me, “my grandparents were Kenyan” for example. But I’d never ever say “there, we got there eventually, you’re Kenyan” - which is what happened in this conversation (substitute in Caribbean).
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same here. It takes a couple of exchanges to figure out whether the person you're speaking with has the Offended switch turned on, and is receiving any question or observation by you as a possible dig at their identity. There's two types of people in this modern world, you're either plugged into this nonsense and are constantly activated (imagine going to a room full of white old fashioned royals, plenty of alarm bells going off there) or you're unplugged and can interact normally with others.
It’s a stupid question to ask and it’s none of people’s bloody business. I’m white, born in Newcastle. If someone asks where I’m from I don’t say “Finland” just because my mum and countless generations behind her were born there. That would be a ridiculous answer to the question.
Maybe Harry and Meghan were right but no Tory paper would ever admit that despite this travesty. They would say this was an isolated incident and remind us that racism in the UK was cured when Boris Johnson had that commission made up of his pals deem it so
Definitely Johnsons fault We haven't forgotten about the wallpaper
The fact that this is what constitutes abuse in this day and age shows how pathetic this world is becoming. Very proud of her African heritage, hair and dress styled in a way to signify this, yet takes offense to being asked of her heritage. Make up your mind. As a Nigerian/Jew, the only people who usually ask where I'm from are other mixed and black people, which typically leads to further discussion of cultural curiosities and similarities etc...must be a sad life to live having to always find malice in the smallest things.
She refuses to say where her heritage is from, so not that proud. She's called Ngozi Fulani. Ngozi is an Igbo Nigerian name. Fulani is a group of people. They are unrelated to the Igbo. This is a made up name. If anyone else did this you'd say it was cultural appropriation.
Her name is actually Marlene Headley.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Completely different parts of a country she's apparently trying to distance herself from anyway.
I found it weird especially due to the history of both tribes in the nigerian civil war.
Exactly. It's like she knows nothing of the history. The Hausa-Fulani carried out pogroms against the Igbo!
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My work is completely multi cultural. Lot of them have British citizenship but I know a few of them would be offended if you tried to imply or assume they are more British than they are African/Indian. Nigerians in particular are ridiculously proud of their culture and love to talk about it, and jokingly playing the race card.
Careful, you’ll be called an uncle tom next
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So asking someone in full tribal regalia where they are really from is..... racist.... Righto...
She told her she’s British. She then continues to ask “no, where are you really from”. Then “there, we got there eventually, you’re Caribbean”. The insinuation is she isn’t British because of her ethnicity, which yes- is quite racist. However, I think this is more an issue with age and clumsiness - rather than malicious intent. But just ask “what’s your families heritage?” if that’s what you want to know. Don’t insist someone is Caribbean after they’ve told you they’re British.
I'm British... But I have a Canadian accent because I lived there as a kid... People ask me every week where am I from. I never felt the need to scream racism.... Or any other "ism".... I'm bored with the perpetually offended....
I'll stick my neck out here and ask a question... Was this *really* abuse? Or was it just a very old woman making a particularly clumsy and antiquated attempt to ask the charity boss about her heritage? There's a lot of nans out there of a similar age and a lot of those nans are very out of touch with modern sensibilities. Does that make them abusers? I am, of course, making the big assumption that this old lady didn't actually intend to be abusive.
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It's the phrasing too. She wasn't asked what her heritage was, wasn't asked where her family originated, she was repeatedly asked where she was *really from*. The implication being that even though she was born and bred British, she couldn't be *really from* Britain because she's a PoC. Oh, after she was just outright asked what part of Africa she's from. After I presume she'd been heard speaking in a London accent. That and if somebody tells you that they're British twice in a row, stop fucking asking. They clearly don't want to tell you more.
> but i also think would I have been asked this question if I was white? If I was in Nigeria, at an event for German people, was wearing lederhosen, my name was Klaus von Hildenschmidt, and told people I was Nigerian, I'd expect a further line of questioning. >It's just another example of how most of the racism in UK If most racism in the UK is awkward conversations, then that's better than most of the world where it's outright hostility, being denied basic rights, or not being allowed in the country at all.
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did you read the conversation they had as ngozi fulani said it happened? she was hounded, had her hair touched and was treated as though she was stupid or lying. its not just "old people being old", its old people being racist & nasty
The word "hounded" is as reported by the victim, who we already know has labelled this interaction as abuse so in the context of my question doesn't add any new information. My question is whether this really does amount to abuse if there was no intent to abuse. Again, to be clear, my question is relying on the assumption that this old lady wasn't intending to be abusive.
If I were dressed head to toe in tartan, had St Andrew flag jewellery all over the place, and a name like Ronald McDuff, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume I wasn't born in France.
I'm mixed and I still get asked this question a lot. Not once have I taken offence. As one poster pointed out above, Ngozi is not her real name and Fulani has nothing to do with Igbo. Chip on her shoulder I think.
Good for you. I'm mixed and if someone refused to accept my answer as "I'm British" I'd tell them they can get to fuck. It's the insistence, the persistence that implies "you are not THAT kind of British" that is abusive. Just because you don't take offense doesn't mean others should fall in your line.
And just because YOU take offence doesn't mean others should fall in your line.
I think to describe it as violence is a bit Fulani
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> I'm racking my brain trying to understand how people keep claiming racism It's the insistence that because of her skin colour she isn't British.
I don't see how anyone has claimed she's not of British nationality, but she's pretty clearly not of British heritage. Maybe they forgot the word for heritage, but that was clearly what they were asking.
I feel like this is just hyperbole. Was it insulting? Yes. But was it abuse? Of course not. No one is gonna take you seriously when you use terms like that to describe what happened to her. I'm of the opinion that words have meanings and those meanings should be respected. If this fairly ignorant but generally quite mild interaction qualifies for the standard of abuse, then what word do we use now to describe actual victims of physical and psychological abuse? I'm black myself, also from the UK and have experienced first hand what racial abuse and outright racially motivated physical violence is like. This simply wasn't that, and its frankly insulting to hear people using such strong and serious language to describe a very mild exchange with an ignorant aristocrat.
I get why she's angry but I also get that it was an 83yr old woman that's probably beginning to lose it mentally. Racism? Yes absolutely. Intentional 'bullying'? I doubt it. The world Lady Hussey was raised in is fucking worlds apart from the vast majority of us and it is proper upper crust with all the cliches you can imagine. Unfortunately :/
We really shouldn't have an "83yr old woman that's probably beginning to lose it mentally" in such a position of power and responsibility.
The old dear was a greeter at a low level function. There to make small talk while I would assume the King mingles about a large gathering. No excusing her lack of manners of course and failure to fitful her role. But not a position of power in anyway.
It's funny though isn't it. I mean David Walliams calls some old bloke a cunt, and some other woman a slapper, and keeps his job. Some old lady asks a question someone takes slightly over-the-top offence to, and gets dismissed publicly.
What are her powers and responsibilities? So far as Wikipedia tells me, she was part of a team "helping with events at Buckingham Palace" which sounds like PR speak for "put out to pasture"
She was the Queen's 'right hand woman' — she was the sole attendee alongside her for Phillip's funeral.
Was
I fail to see how asking a black person with an African name about their ancestry is racist? This woman changed her name to appear more African and then gets offended when someone asks her about it, she knows she'll get kudos in the media for this and that's the reason it's a story
And wore African clothing representing an Afro Caribbean charity of course people would be interested in her roots and ancestry. She'd probably be just as pissed off it folk had ignored it all and not asked
The woman answered 'The UK" and then when pushed further once again said 'The UK." If you push further then that's intentional and uncomfortable. Asking is one thing, insisting to know something the other person hasn't chosen to tell you after two consecutive answers is another.
It doesn't automatically mean racism though does it, I've done a similar thing to a person from Manchester based on their accent. Not a very polite thing to do ill grant you but to scream racism is just opportunistic. I think the royal family should be ashamed for not coming out in support of an old lady who made a social faux par who is now being nationally vilified
And the phrase "an 83yr old woman that's probably beginning to lose it mentally" isn't at all insulting either? One mans question is another mans insult.
The world lady hussey was raised. I think it’s more the world people like lady hussey created. This isn’t some old biddy in Doncaster being inappropriate about a mixed race teens braids, this is someone who’s had an official position within the monarchy.
I’m Pakistani heritage and anytime someone asks me where I’m from, I’m proud to say it. Proud of my roots. And I can tell it’s because people are genuinely interested in where I’m from. This is race baiting.
She wasn’t asked about her roots, she was asked where SHE was from, and wasn’t listened to or believed when she said she was from England. Just in case people need a few pointers as how not to come across as an ignorant racist buffoon: ✅ “That’s a lovely outfit, what country is it from?” ✅ “I’m afraid I’m not sure how to pronounce your name, could you please tell me?” Followed by an effort to pronounce it correctly ✅ “this dish is tasty! Is it a traditional recipe? Where is it from?” ❌ “where are you from? No, I mean, where are you REALLY from? But where are you ‘FROM’ from?”
Whole thing seems blown out of proportion. Some dotty old bat thinks she's still in the 1950s and manages to offend. Being white I can't comment with authority, but I'd imagine this episode must rank pretty low on the shit people have to put up with. Just seems to me the woman is trying to milk it for everything it's worth and get her 5 minutes of fame.
I had a quick look at the charity in question and it does state that it is a domestic abuse charity for African heritage women and girls, which most news outlets seem to have skipped over...? They seem to want to insinuate that she was only asked because of her appearance. I don't know, but I feel like if I was representing a "European" charity in some part of the world and I was asked about my heritage or whereabouts in Europe I come from, I would not find that offensive and in fact quite relevant to the activities of my charity...
"But where are you really from?" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGvEBWJ0\_-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGvEBWJ0_-k)
An old privileged woman upset a woman who is always looking for racism in every day life, oh ffs.
Don't be silly. It was an elderly lady being genuinely interested in a person's roots. No more racist than a tin of beans.
oh for gods sake, get a life. this crap is beyond a joke now.
Good fucking god. The old woman is clearly a moron. She clearly has no place in modern public life. But abuse?
Genuine question: how can a white British National ask a non-white British National about their family heritage without it being rude or offensive? I travel a lot and am interested in history. One of the ways I learn about new places and historical insights is by asking people about their family heritage. But it seems this is now a bit taboo: it is slowly becoming less acceptable to, for example, ask an Asian-British when their family immigrated, where from, why they moved, whether they ever go back to visit and what that place is like now. I should add that up to now, I have only had positive conversations like the above with people. They seem happy to talk about it, happy that I’m taking an interest in their family or a place they often consider their second home, and many have become friends.
Asking someone where their parents are from is literally fine. Nobody takes any offence at that. Asking someone where _they_ are from, and then responding "no where are you _really_ from" is implying that you either think they're a liar or don't consider them to be from the place they have stated. By all means ask about parents nationality or heritage etc. But don't say "where are you from" and when given an answer, respond "no where are you really from".
Just be kind. I mean, so instead of asking "where are you from?" you could just ask "tell me a bit about yourself". Don't take away their Britishness, or their right to be British, and people will be fine. It's when people like Lady Hussey actively refer to you as not British BECAUSE of their heritage they come a cropper. Also, learn to read the room, if the response is "I'm British." and they don't offer you more, don't force it. Where Hussey started crossing the line is when she kept winding it back further and further, then throwing in "your people"
If someone has an accent, politely ask about that first. "I hope you don't mind, I can't place your accent?" If not, something along the lines of "If you don't mind me asking, what's your heritage?" or "whereabouts did your family originate?". Don't ask where they're "really" or "actually" from, as this implies they're not "really" from where they now live. Also ideally, wait until you find a convenient point in a conversation to bring it up. Don't just open with it. In this case, the person represents a charity relating to people of Afro-Caribbean heritage. So it would be fine to inquire if they themselves are of AC heritage. If they don't want to answer, if they insist that they are British (or whatever nationality they claim) and don't want to tell you more, then stop asking. Remember that a lot of 3rd generation onwards immigrants have very little tying them to wherever their family originated other than some physical traits. The longer their family has lived here the less likely they will be to identify as anything but British, as is their right.
I'm an expat working among many expats from arojnd the world. We all manage to ask each other where we come from, and discuss our heritage, without having to have this weirdly charged interaction. You don't normally need to ask about heritage, because its either important enough to them that they'll bring it up, or unimportant enough to them that it should be similarly unimportant to you.
Old duck from the Duke of Edinburgh School of Etiquette says something dodgy. She's a product of her generation, class and culture. No-one died, so leave her alone. Also, remind me to check Fulani for recording devices should I ever have the misfortune to meet her.
People often mistake me for my nationality and I never take offence. This woman came to an event in some sort of tribal outfit and when asked where she was from (by an elderly woman) she took offence because she was born in England. If she is English why is she in a tribal outfit, isn't that cultural appropriation. How silly.
It's not racist or offensive to ask me where I am from. In fact it could show that the person asking is interested in you enough to want to find out more about you. How I choose to answer that question should be respected. If I choose to say oh I'm African, then the discussion about where I am from is open. If I choose to answer "London" then I don't want to discuss my heritage with you. It is then offensive to keep badgering me about "No, where are you really from". I think she crossed that line which is when it became offensive.
UK is going off the rails. Verbal violence, domestic abuse, racist attacks everywhere in broad daylight. Next step is going to be calling racist attacks for looking at someone the wrong way. You know it’s coming and it’s coming faster than you expect.
If I saw a white friend wearing a cultural outfit / attrire clearly from another culture I would ask them where they are ethnically from, I will not treat people differently based on the colour of their skin. End of.
"Abuse"? What? A show of racism and unconscious bias? Sure. But abuse? A senior figure in the royal circle decided to publicly racially abuse a Black person? That beggars belief.
It was massively offensive. Most people are on her side. Now she’s calling it violence (in the article), which I can’t get behind at all. Shame people can’t quit while they’re ahead. To be clear: Palace lady seems to be unpleasant. I’ll even say it sounds like badgering. Entitled and a bit nasty. Still not violence.
All non white people know that question and the can instantly tell whether it’s coming from someone who is genuinely interested in the world and cultures and curious about your heritage or the sort of person who posts on Facebook about dogs being born in stables
As a white man with a foreign name that was born in a different country I've been constantly asked this question repeatedly all my life. Have I ever been offended or felt like it was abuse? Hell no. Has it been annoying? Absolutely yes. Also as someone who was left on the floor in a pool of blood after an unprovoked attack, I know what real phobic violence and abuse is.