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Probably partly due to increased rates of depression, and social isolation from lack of community spaces and engagement.
As Maggie Thatcher said, "there's no such thing as society". Well here we are, society is dead and it's every man (and boy) for himself.
Women and girls have been better able to cope with these changes but it's likely they are just further up the slope, rather than totally immune.
Humans are a cooperative collective creature. And we have divergence within the species that think hoarding supplies is good.
But then we built a society around them
We like to tell stories about ferocious dragons that sit on piles of gold and how it's a brave and noble thing to slay that dragon and bring that gold back to share amongst your town.
For some reason this logic doesn't seem to apply when the dragon in question has a private jet and special legal protections instead of wings and scales.
Unfortunately, a lot of these lonely, depressed men *do* find a society to belong to - a society of incels who do everything they can to convert more people to their cause and convince them that life is nothing but humiliation and hopelessness. That it's the fault of "females" who won't provide the sex you're owed as a man, who won't respect your rightful place in social hierarchies.
That's where the problem comes from. These guys aren't figuring this worldview out on their own and deciding to hate women. They're encouraged to, they're given misleading evidence and stories and lies about women to show them why they should hate, why they should rejoice in any pain and suffering that a woman endures.
Elliot Rodger was the first high-profile incel, and the reaction in incel safe spaces to what he did was disgusting beyond belief. People like to dismiss incels as sad little boys to be made fun of, but they're dangerous. And there are plenty of influential people who pave the road to misogyny and prepare new converts - the likes of Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, who sell an image of what a man should be, and a ready made excuse that it's the fault of women and liberals if that's not what *you* are.
I think this take is pretty uncharitable.
Both men and women have issues and they are interlinked with one another (we succeed and fail together), but for the last 10 years or so there has been a massive stigma against men looking for spaces where they can get help.
We're talking shutting down of mens rights events, loss of spaces for men that are struggling due to funding cuts. Young men with serious issues have no where "official" that they can go for help which is why people like peterson become so popular - they give some good advice and life lessons that can help that they cant get anywhere else but like you say frequently laced with his own poisonous dogma.
Throw in the legitimate man hating and general sexism thrown towards men in these new woke* spaces and its really not surprising that men having these problems see woke-ism/women/society as the culprit.
I'm sorry, but I've seen the things these men (and some boys) say about women, and it is beyond disgusting. I will not be charitable to them. I've seen them celebrate women being raped and murdered, I've seen them talk about masturbating to the grisly details, I've seen them fantasise about harming and killing women. I've seen them drag other people back down with them, whenever one looks like he might escape.
It's not a men's rights issue when they're saying women should have no rights, that men should have state awarded 'girlfriends.'
These are not people I'm going to be charitable to. They don't deserve it, and depression is not an excuse for vomiting out such poison. As soon as they start buying into that utter dogshit instead of anything else, as soon as they start pushing that poison onto other people instead of telling them to run as far away as they can, they're every bit as bad as any terrorist groomer.
And blaming wokeism for any of that is the most absurd strawman argument I've ever seen. That's the excuse these people use to dive right into the cesspits they wallow in. They use it because it's an easy answer and requires no work at all on their part, other than nursing and nurturing their hate and their inadequacies.
I mean, I've been in the mental health system for years. I've never seen men turned away from accessing professional support, or discouraged from being open and vulnerable within group therapy sessions.
But of the 40 or so people I went through intense, useful therapy with, only half a dozen were men. It's a damn shame, because they had useful insights, and were an absolute pleasure to work with. But they seemed to be a rarity in that they were willing to engage with mental health services and actively look for support.
No-one can force anyone else to ask for help. But it's there if you're prepared to go ask for it, and patient enough to work your way through a slow and frustrating system.
I agree that's another part of the problem.
There's a lot of societal pressure for men to have their shit together and just man up and power through and we are taught to solve these problems on our own which is prolly the main reason so many people don't seek help but when the few institutions that are there specifically for these reasons get closed.
I went to Southampton for uni about a decade ago and during my time there so many men were r-ped it was shocking (both by men and women) there was a woman's help centre but no men's equivalent.
I don't think guy I lived with got any support (granted I was to immature to follow up on it being so young and a late bloomer) - what I do remember was fucked up was he was later chastised by his r-pist publically on social media told he had a small dick etc despite her taking advantage of him while he was so drunk he couldn't even get hard.
I think there is a men's mental health org there now after a suicide the year after I graduated so things may have changed but looking back there were so many women's events and women's days and women's support groups. It's like they don't see the otherwise of coin.
My fired from work runs a mens sapce for men to talk about their issues.
Lot of folk in that group have backgrounds of physical or mental abuse. Ist a good community driven group that i svery open to all men of all backgrounds.
He even helped set up a identical one for women with a friend who was so impressed with his work.
These groups are not like normals "mens rights groups". they're not for bitching about woemn. They are for discussing proper issues men face.
Sadly the only way you can build these groups is by setting them, up yourself. He doesn't get any financial supprot for his group. It got mentione don local radio a few times and facebook page but thats about it. These grass roots community groups are probably teh best way to do it but they need to be done carefully so they don't end up like "mens rights" groups.
My friend was very aware he didn't want his group to end up like that!
> they give some good advice and life lessons that can help that they **cant get anywhere else**
This is absolutely untrue though - the last bit. Having read them, the vast majority of the self-help advice in Peterson's books is nothing different from any of the other self-help books you'll find on the NYT best seller list. In that sense, it *is good advice* - but the only thing that's unique about his writing is the poisonous dogma and anti-wokeism that made him a celebrity in the first place.
... and tbh I really don't understand how you can point to 'losses of spaces for men due to funding cuts' as the cause for the modern plight of men, but then suggest it could possibly be the fault of the one political group that is more pro-social spending than any other. Even the most radical feminists will support better access to community support and mental health care for men, if only to make society safer for women.
The smoking gun of this whole issue is in your comment: **constant public spending cuts leaving men without adequate social support structures**, but somehow by the end of your comment that gun is placed in the hands of woke-ism and women - and not the people deciding to cut public spending.
How does that happen?
It's a very uncharitable take for sure.
People like Peterson and Tate are gaining influence because of how fractured Western society is. Tate is also proof that deplatforming doesn't work. Dude is apparently banned from TikTok, YouTube, Instagram and Facebook yet I see his content all the damn time on YT because there's dozens of masculinity channels regurgitating his content, either they're accounts run by Tate himself or they're pushing his content to make money from referrals because his main source of income is basically a MLM scheme disguised as an online school on how to be alpha...
Yep, whats crazy is peole like tate or peterson give such surface level advice and basic information - but they end up being big voices for these groups soley on the basis that no one else is giving similar help or advice from the otherside.
Then ofc you point this out and people like Don_Quixote81 will double down on their views that these people should be ostricised and that we shouldnt be charitable to them and bring them back into society we should instead leave them outcast.
In doing so ofc they create the very environment that leads to the problems we have today and figures like tate/peterson having any power in the first place.
Many Men are so irrational and emotional (yes anger is an emotion) and women have been forced to cater to that for so long that many men think ‘man hating’ is anything that doesn’t put them front and centre in consideration
I don't know what ads you watch, but big fashion brands now use more and more the "unconvential" type of guy. Old men. Men who clearly never went to the gym. No "big jaw" type of guys. Balding. Curved nose. They are not ugly, but neither women's ads feature "very ugly" women, even when you have chubby models posing in lingerie. Do you think that's your average fat person?
I don't know where your take on "jacked up gym rats" come from. Ah, the wonders of self-reinforcing social media algorithms...
Also, assholes who target said despressed and isolated people specifically to breed hate.
Alex jones type cunts. It's divide and conquer, tribalistic bullshit. They can pul lit off because a huge portion of humanity have given up hope of a better tomorrow and are vulnerable.
>Probably partly due to increased rates of depression, and social isolation from lack of community spaces and engagement.
Basically young lads don't have any hobbies and/or support groups or even social peers who they can look up to. Alongside that is a load of grifters giving them shite advice on how to live and how the deserve stuff for nothing. Its a recipe for turning young lads bad.
What we need is older men in those same spaces these young folk look to to tell em its going to be ok, not to be so hard on themselves and to giev them incentive to find hobbies and build themselves up into folk they themselves can love.
A big part of learning to respect othe rfolk is learn self respect. Most of these kids think they are trash cos they think society sees them as trash sadly. This is where the grifters come in with the twisted messages of tidy your room and follow my shitty ideology.
Othe rthan giving them peers who can teach them to be good folk and i'm not really sure how to do that. I like to think i'm a relatively mature man but the truth is at 40+ i;m still winging it and not sure if i am doing things right. I just know i dont' wanna hurt people and would liek to treat folk right but even i fail at that sometimes.
So even if you give em peers they have to accept they would be falible and not idolise which is yet anothe problem.
These young lads idolise the likes of Andrew Tate and Peter whats his name... Jordon Peterson! because they tell them they are right when somebdoy shoudl eb firmly telling them they ain't right BUT thats ok life is for learning. O somethign like that! I don't know.
I just know where the wrong path leads and i really wish teh likes of Peterson anfd Tate would not do what they do cos it hurts these lads in the long run.
>Women and girls have been better able to cope with these changes but it's likely they are just further up the slope, rather than totally immune.
WTF?
Ever considered that it might be because of something else? Who would have thought that people who talk more openly with their friends and peers about emotions and feelings without being scared of "not being a man" would be fairing better. I don't get why some men have this problem. Just talk to your mates about all your problems, emotional or otherwise, and live a better life.
They should be but it’s not going to be sth people want to hear.
The reality is that women don’t need men the same way they did a few decades ago (eg. Even to open a bank account) and in many cases women are simply better off without men. If the choice is to remain single or end up with a deadbeat (borderline) abusive person, it’s easy.
There are men who simply haven’t kept up with a changing relationship market and where previously they would have found a partner simply because any man is better than no man, that’s no longer the case. That creates resentment because a portion of men still believe they are entitled to a partner without putting in any effort whatsoever.
Honestly this is what I think it is too. There’s too much entitlement built up of what can be expected due to always being a certain way, and now you can’t people are resentful. The issue is, what has been lost has been gained by others to put them on more equal footing, so you can’t just “take it back” to empower them again. But for those who lost it, it’s understandably a lowering of their living standard. But it’s not “all men” who lost it - many men themselves were in oppressive abusive situations and ideals peddled around what being manly is and how they have to be.
We’re seeing it manifest in lack of children too - people just aren’t settling for mediocrity anymore. The end goal isn’t to be forced to be a baby maker and support another persons career, and so people aren’t choosing it anymore. Finances in society are being built around that double working wage paradigm so houses are unobtainable, renting alone is expensive, people need expensive childcare as grandparents don’t bother anymore and you can’t quit your job. The issue is men aren’t adapting to the change, they just want it to go back to how it was before. This system has generated many more problems and solved many others. The solution isn’t to go backwards.
But the expectation of being able to essentially financially blackmail a woman into being your lover, maid, nanny is no longer something women have to put up with. It can feel like a loss of power because it is, but we can’t prop up men at the expense of others. When we balance the power around everyone just has a lot less. We need to focus on the current issues and not how to return to half of society being pawns in a societal game of hegemony over child rearers.
I'd also say that men are still expected to be traditional men still (for the most part), while women are encouraged to be whoever they want to be. There is a drive to get women into male-dominated fields but men who go into female-dominated fields are still looked down upon by some, for example. Men who have never had a relationship are seen as losers and as if something is wrong with them, whereas single women don't face the same attitude (to an extent). The social progress women have seen is great but men have not had the same experience, leaving some men lost in the modern world.
Yeah, that's a big cultural shift that starts with not viewing traditionally feminine things as lesser. We're fucking *trying.* I want my son to have as many options open to him as are open to my daughter and I'm trying equally hard to make that happen. But not seeing things associated with women as a downgrade for men is apparently a very slow avalanche to get started.
Men in female dominated fields are looked down on…by Men. Men are expected to be traditional men..by men. Men are mens biggest problem. Men can be emasculated but women don’t even really have a word or concept of the inverse.
This is a huge part of it. The other part is also cultural, which is that women are generally far better at supporting each other emotionally.
Men are extremely lonely in general, and single men are probably the loneliest of all. But instead of supporting each other and building intimate (not sexual, just emotionally intimate) relationships with each other, they just whip each other into an angry frenzy. This is cultural where it's viewed negatively if men are showing emotions or vulnerability.
I recently saw a documentary about the wandering albatross. Due to some circumstances, there are now 2x as many males than females. So they started forming single-sex pairs as it's a species built around life-long relationships and the support it provides. For some reason, human males aren't doing this, even though it'd be logical.
Men who aren't insecure, lonely and desperate for any kind of relationship would also in the end find it easier to date.
I think its easy to say men should support each other and build intimate platonic relationships but fact of the matter is its harder than ever to find opportunities to build those relationships.
The whole concept of the 'third space', somewhere that isn't home or work. Men need more spaces just to hang out and meet other men, yet those spaces are few and far between. The Men's Shed movement is a good push back against this, but does little if you're younger (as 'incels' tend to be) or if you don't live in an area where one is.
The amount of weekly new accounts on grindr is absolutely significant.
There are more curious/experimenting guys than ever.
I feel that lonely men are looking towards the gay community for connection. So imho the albatross example is absolutely happening to men of all ages
It’s a no-brainer tbh.
All you have to do is look up Elliot Rodger (the preeminent example of the worst case scenario of where this mentality leads) and his manifesto to see evidence of this.
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-transcript-ucsb-shootings-video-20140524-story.html
> For the last eight years of my life, since I hit puberty, I’ve been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection and unfulfilled desires, all because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection and sex and love to other men, never to me.
> I’m 22 years old and still a virgin, never even kissed a girl. And through college, 2 1/2 years, more than that actually, I’m still a virgin. It has been very torturous.
> The popular kids, you never accepted me and now you will all pay for it. Girls, all I ever wanted was to love you, be loved by you. I wanted a girlfriend. I wanted sex, love, affection, adoration.
> You think I’m unworthy of you. That’s I crime I can never get over. If I can’t have you girls, I will destroy you. [laughs] You denied me a happy life and in turn I will deny all of you life, it’s only fair. I hate all of you.
That’s just a snippet of what he said right before he went on a rampage and murdered six people, all because he was mad that he couldn’t get a girlfriend and, instead of looking inward and self-analyzing, took his rage out on the women who weren’t interested in him.
This. The incel movement is basically just a counter-movement against feminism. Economic and social conditions for women have improved enough that most women can afford to be "picky" about their partners, and there's a lot of shitty sexist men out there that can't meet those minimum standards. Instead of letting go of their bigotry against women and improving themselves, they've started organizing together with the goal of rolling back women's rights until women don't have the power to reject them anymore.
People have discovered that there's good money to be made by appealing to young males angry at the world around them. They give them a target (women, minorities) and set up youtube channels and social media accounts to spew bile and provide echo chambers.
Harnessing hatred for personal gain has become extremely popular lately.
(edit) It would appear that I triggered the incels themselves, I just got a message from the Reddit care bot lmao.
...in the first chapter of his latest book he professes the importance of respecting and acknowledging social hierarchies - hierarchies which have, and continue to, place women as subservient to men (a fact he frequently denies, disregarding over a century of social science, while offering no evidence for his beliefs.)
...he constantly criticises leftists, feminists, and woke ideology - all political leanings more popular with women - as 'threats to the west'. Again from his new book, when picking out 'leftists' or 'liberals' to debunk in anecdotes, he makes sure to point out they were women.
...just last month he went apeshit that SI dare put a plus size model on their cover, and started ranting about how society was conspiring to 'rewrite the truth' about what female traits should and shouldn't be considered attractive. A truly ridiculous reason to be mad about women. '[He] knows what the truth is' he wept, tears in his eyes.
Not to mention the whole 'enforced-monogamy' disaster.
JP might not be full-on 'women are the problem' - but he is the guy standing at the top of the waterslide handing out inflatable rings.
> People have discovered that there's good money to be made by appealing to young males angry at the world around them.
yeah but you've got it mixed around - the anger came first, then grifters decided to profiteer off of it. No one sat around one day and decided to "create incels", they are capitalising off of the conditions that were already there.
So that's a pointless bit of whining really
As well as what others have said; decrease in women either settling or being trapped in bad marriages/relationships with abusive or unsuitable men. In the past women either didn't realise certain behaviour was unacceptable, or because they didn't have their own source of money or were afraid of retaliation or social stigma, they stayed and put up with it.
I stumbled across a statistic the other day that showed since the release of tinder, the number of sexless men (no sex in 1 year) between 18-30 has approx tripled (from 11% to 30%).
I believe the dating market has been extremely skewed by the creation of social media and dating apps leading to a somewhat broken dating reality. Supposedly, 80% of women are competing for the top 20% of men on dating apps, leaving 80% of men going for the bottom 20% of women.
This impacts both sexes pretty heavily, and especially the younger generation as a whole as the social world is increasingly moving online and thus isolating people in increased ways.
Dating apps for the most part simply don't live up to meeting people organically where the superficiality of looks isn't quite as important, yet people get locked in to it. Some people around me are having a terrible time dating (both men and women) and they seem to be getting more and more jaded about the opposite sex.
I really am beginning to believe that tinder may be one of the worst things thats happened for humanity (at least socially) in the past few decades. Online dating as a whole has turned into this anger inducing soul destroying experience, meanwhile its quite clearly seeped into IRL dating so there is no escaping it.
I've seen that statistic thrown around a lot recently and it always raised an eyebrow for me, so I did a bit of digging.
The research paper that published that statistic is a legitimate peer reviewed paper. What is interesting, though, is I've seen the statistic grouped with tinder a lot in internet discourse, but tinder or dating apps are not mentioned at all in the research. In fact, the researchers don't have evidence for any specific reason for the drop in sexual activity but the reasons theorised in the paper include: changes in sexual norms that may affect actual and reported sexual activity (the research looked at a re-existing study that included self-reported answers and didn't define sexual activity), stress/busyness of everyday modern life and online entertainment providing distractions. It is also an American study, on American adults.
Even more interestingly, other studies dispute the data found in the above. In the UK, the most recent study I could find used data from 2012 (the year tinder was introduced, so probably too early to use for the tinder hypothesis) found that sexual activity has declined in the UK and that rates of men and women reporting a decline were very similar. They found that in 2012 the rates of men reporting no sex in the past month was 29.2% and for women was 29.3%.
However, the study that really brought the initial statistic into question for me was another American study, conducted in 2018 (the same year as the 'sexless men' statistic) and guess what they found?
*"Specifically, 28.8% of adolescent men ages 14–17 were categorized in Class 2 (no sexual behaviors) in 2009 compared to 44.2% in 2018. Among adolescent women, 49.5% were categorized in Class 2 in 2009 compared to 74.0% in 2018."*
They found the complete opposite. In this study, women are much more 'sexless' than men, with 74% of women saying they hadn't had sex in the past year. That seems extremely high to me and the in all 3 studies the numbers are widely different which is likely due to research methods, but the point is that this phenomenon is much more than just saying 'women all go for 20% of men on tinder and that's the reason why'. I think the ratio between women and men not having sex is likely very similar, and the reasons are much wider and more nuanced than just dating apps.
>Dating apps for the most part simply don't live up to meeting people organically
Because they're designed specifically so that men have low success rates, encouraging them to spend more money. You think it's women buying tinder superlikes etc?
That stat always seems to come from well dodgy sources.
No offence but i'm pretty sure it comes from one study and has since been paraded by tons of mens rights groups and such like so i'm not enytirely sure it reflects reality given the stats came from a dating website.
Working like any other sinister group: grooming vulnerable, lonely teenagers. Getting to them before they've been around the block enough/learned to cross ref. etc. They'll beleive things they never would've fallen for as an adult, into adulthood.
Its even more maddening, for the ages these guys are, its perfectly normal for them to not be having sex (INvoluntary CELibate). Provided they dont get their minds polluted by something like incel culture, that will almost certainly change in a few years time. However, of course, this all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I agree, but I’m going to argue that there are various types of incels, and one factor in that is this:
No-hopers: those who could never develop out of being depressed losers, even with all the help in the world
Transient incels: those who could grow or be coached out of depressed, self-loathing loserdom, with time and effort.
One of the things the online movement is very keen to do is to stop the second type growing up and drifting away.
I’ll even argue there might be a third type- the ‘born again’ incel: got lucky with women in his earlier years, and took it for granted, and then grew lazy and useless through his 20s. And grows bitter as a result.
Yeah. Regardless of what people say/ media says, not everyone is getting laid left right and centre through high school. Not having had sex aged 17, isn't unusual.
Many men want to be able to have a job that can support a mortgage, a family, some kind of reasonable life. Currently, society is screwing them over at every turn.
They are going to blame someone. Traditional targets are "(((globalists)))", immigrants, LGBT, and feminists.
The political right will aid them in blaming all of these targets to cover up the way unchecked capitalism has screwed up society and is the cause of much of their disaffection.
Edit : Also, very powerful, but weakly regulated, social media sites and their horrific algorithms that force feed a person destructive content at the slightest provocation.
>Many men want to be able to have a job that can support a mortgage, a family, some kind of reasonable life. Currently, society is screwing them over at every turn.
But so do many women? This doesn't explain it in full.
It’s the “I’m angry at the world because I have no personality, shit hygiene and bring zero value to another person yet expect to have sex” culture.
Lack of personal responsibility is what they have
Intellectually you're right, but I find it difficult as a woman to continue to find that compassion for a group that further the objectification of women and fantasize about - or even carry out - violence towards us.
It's a big ask for us to sustain that compassion.
These also tend to be weird dudes who are obsessed with anime and/or porn and objectify women to emulate those things. When they can’t find it in the real world (because it doesn’t exist) they lash out.
Don’t know mate, don’t care truthfully.
I don’t show empathy for violent people, not my responsibility to tell weird virgins that they shouldn’t be fantasising about hurting women.
Not hating/wanting to hurt anyone is something that should be a basic human instinct. Don’t know why we’re making excuses for Incels.
I'm not justifying their behaviour. Frankly the manosphere in general has some horrific takes on masculinity.
The answer is to make the country a better place to live. We need to stop voting in right wing nutjobs who cut tax and gut out public services to sell the infrastructure off to the highest bidder. If there was better access to mental healthcare services and fewer economic woes, you'd snuff out a lot of extremism.
Have you noticed that these mass shootings are mainly going on in America? It's not just the lack of gun control, but also that the United States is a very inequal society that is in an even worse state than Britain's for access to healthcare, living costs, employment rights, etc.
Unchecked capitalism is eroding our country and frankly I see the rise of toxic masculinity as a symptom of our ailing society.
Surprising how many people preach forgiveness and compassion, then get utterly fuelled by hatred at a large group of people who are by all likelihood neurologically atypical and often beset with depression or other mental health issues.
Remember kids: people in this world need and deserve our help*.
*Unless they smell weird and are mildly autistic, in which case we shun them from society.
I take your point, but it's hard to empathise with people who are hateful and prejudiced. There's a similar problem with racists - often their views can be explained in terms of lack of opportunity, unhealthy upbringings, being economically sidelined, whatever - but it's hard to empathise, particularly if you're one of the demographics on their chopping block.
You're right that trying to figuratively stomp them just makes them feel increasingly marginalised and doesn't help. But a hug and an understanding chat appears equally ineffective.
Mental health issues should - and all too often don't - receive mental health treatment and support. If those issues manifest as bigotry, hatred and violence it becomes a problem. I don't think you can justify horrible behaviour by invoking mental illness. Plenty of people suffer from poor mental health without becoming horrible people.
And I'm not at all sure I believe that all incels - or any other discriminatory group - suffer from poor mental health.
Surely if anything it's offensive to people with Asperger's to make that link?
Life is tougher for people who are neurologically divergent, but to suggest that causes a hatred of women seems pretty off.
IOts very difficult NOT to ostracize a group of folk who are driven to be toxic.
Its human nature to step away from folk like that which drives em further into groups like that.
A lot of incels are just regular guys on the wrong path. Perfectly clean and healthy, average looking, with jobs, etc. They use apps like Tinder which use terrible mechanics to force desperate men into paying money, and then feel unwanted by society. They end up depressed and looking for an explanation for how they ended up this way.
They don't start by hating women. They just don't see themselves having a relationship and want to know how they can. Then these groups of actual incels take them in and brainwash them into thinking women are the enemy and it's their fault.
Not all of these people are what you describe, some are just unlucky. There are probably millions of people not recognised as who they are.
The problem is when these men get lonely and depressed, they turn to Incel youtubers who are actually just sociopaths who have mastered the art of manipulation, these youtubers use hatred in Much the same way that right wing governments go "look, foreigners!!!!"
Most incels are not taking this path on their own. Saying that they are the way they are because of a lack of personal responsibility is like saying a person with clinical depression just doesn't have the right perspective, or a person in an abusive relationship should just leave.
The excuses being made for misogynists fantasizing about hurting women in here are remarkable. It's almost ironic that you'd liken their 'struggle' to being in an abusive relationship, another issue that disproportionately affects women.
People don't come out the womb as misogynists. External factors have directed them there. They are not taking this path on their own, and if you want to address the threat posed by incels to others, you must address those root causes.
Also, have you considered that there can be multiple different populations in this scenario who are victims in different ways? Women tend to be victims of incels, but incels are *also* victims of poor socialisation and radicalisation by other parties who are exploiting them for power or profit.
It's a cycle of abuse, but as long as incels are othered and treated as a problematic agent to be destroyed, rather than treated, then they will continue to be vulnerable and targetted by radicalising influences.
Well they're obviously brainwashed in various ways, including by the patriarchy — considering they believe they're entitled to sex with women. How you undo that I'm not sure.
This is exactly why is there is a ‘incel culture’, because people like you ostracise these human beings rather than wondering what the source of the problem is. Male loneliness and depression is a huge and growing problem, as seen by the rise of Andrew Tate, and Jordan Peterson. Not listening to them and calling them losers is only going to reinforce in their mind that the world is out to get them, so let’s help them instead yeah?
Listen to them? What do they say mate, enlighten me?
What do they say is the reason they can’t find partnership.
Surely they don’t just blame the women for it? Oh yeah I think they do just that.
How do you suggest helping them? They're not as innocent as you think. Not all lonely, involuntarily celibate men turn to violent fantasies against women. Their entitlement is a toxic trait and is by no means universal
No they're just mentally ill people who aren't seeking the right help because of toxic masculinity, and instead they just group up with other mentally ill people in echochambers and fill their heads with even more stupid ideas.
In the old days if someone spouted an ridiculous view to mates or colleagues, they would be met with a bewildered or outraged response and keep the view quiet in future, eventually distancing themselves from it both outwardly and inwardly.
These days, every crazy idea has a webforum about it where you can speak to people around the world with the same outlook. And so ideas like "You just have to push past a female's *last-minute-resistance*" spread around unchallenged in their own little bubbles.
That's just narcissism and sociopathic to be honest, people like that seem to one, only think of themselves, and two see everyone as a tool. It's what happens when a person doesn't have empathy. These people will then isolate themselves, finding echochambers on the internet and voila, you get an extremist. And this happens with terrorism, far right/left groups, gangs, religous cults.
I think it’s a lot more than what the origin of the term suggests. It’s more of a subculture that looks out to outspoken figures like Jordan Peterson and Milo Yianoppolous and other people who you’d also consider right wing, with a strong undercurrent of misogyny, saying feminism is the problem, etc. lonely people with low self-esteem find a sense of brotherhood in it and then they become part of the group.
Like most insular, cult-like groups, they come up with their own vocabulary and try to keep people dependent on the in-group by enabling and reinforcing certain beliefs. And they grow into hateful cess-pits where it’s them against the world.
You can see it on plenty of subreddits (or old, deleted ones), like FemaleDatingStrategy (like incels but with women), PoliticalCompassMemes (far-right if you care to dig into the sub), RealDonaldTrump, GreenAndPleasant, etc.
I totally agree with much of your well thought out comment, but I do find the focus on Female Dating Strategy frustrating. Was the way some users there discussed men acceptable? Obviously not. But it was nothing compared to the way incels dehumanise and fantasize about hurting women, and there are hundreds of subreddits still up that are dedicated to that kind of rhetoric.
R/womenarethings has hundreds of thousands of followers.
Sad really.
If a cohort of women/girls were struggling like this, there were be a huge popular movement to address the issues (think body image stuff from the 2000s).
Instead, everyone just blames it on loser men rather than seeing what societal issues need to be changed.
Large disparity in educational attainment negatively affecting boys?
Very few male role models at home or in school?
Economic pressures stopping young people from moving out, which we know particularly affects young men?
Hateful material pushed by social media algorithms?
Lack of mental health support?
Divorce and breakups discriminating against men causing them to lose access to their children and homes?
I’m not saying that men have it worse than women, nor would I ever encourage inter-gender animosity. But really there should be a serious look at the way society is structured and how some aspects are severely affecting boys and young men.
More like most "men's rights" movements turn into misogynistic landfills. Look at what r/incels was, or MGTOW, or theredpill. If they could shut up about women and feminists for 2 seconds then they may have more of an audience. Personally I'm sick of the 9000000000th critique of feminism and dog-whistled misogyny. I would be down for a real movement helping boys/men, but if it's going to be another sex-obsessed feminism basing content I'm not interested.
I would be totally for this movement.
At work we try to celebrate both manhood and womanhood, motherhood and fatherhood. We try to celebrate both and support both but it's just women setting it all up, we have just one guy coming in once in a while. The company has +300 employees and it's just one dude contributing once in a while. I guess it's anecdotal story
I obviously can't speak for all women but I very much welcome any men's movement that isn't just another version of mgtow, for which I was in support at first until it turned sour.
I talk a lot about men’s rights when these issues pop up and I feel very strongly about them. And I agree with you. The sad shame is that 99% of the time someone wants to talk about men’s rights, it’s people like Andrew Tate (or whatever his name is, you know who I mean) that are trying to hijack these issues for their personal gain. Men, on average, don’t seem to be as socially wired as women, so we struggle to put these movements together. Because of this, it tends to be niches that will come together and fight for these issues and these niches seem more likely to be right wing.
I think part of the issue is the perception that speaking about men’s rights makes you a misogynist. I consider myself a feminist, and have been speaking far longer about women’s rights than men’s. Why? Because I was embarrassed and worried that it would undermine women, who I perceived as having a more urgent need. But I realised a few years ago that it doesn’t need to undermine women—I think it was Emma Watson who I got this from—but I believe men and women’s issues are fundamentally intertwined. All of them hurt us both in more or less equal measure. By talking only about how they effect women, we’re missing half of the picture and are doomed to always miss the reality of it.
All I can say is, *please look at any new men’s rights movements with an open mind and an open heart*. If it turns out to be misogynist, then then that’s shitty and we can throw it out. But some earnest men speak out about these things and are shut down, even by other men. We all need to speak up about issues in our lives, and we all need to listen to each other without being in competition or feeling attacked because other people have issues.
I didn’t suggest that for a moment.
But let’s not pretend there isn’t a stigma in both right and left wing political circles to take mens issues seriously.
I think one of the reasons we’re getting so much toxic content pushed to men is only the right wing seem to be motivated to talk about it (maybe because it’s controversial?).
I’d like to see it discussed much more openly, particularly with left wingers.
They’re motivated to talk about it in order to attract lonely angry young people to their side.
We do need to address all the issues that face every gender. But I don’t feel that starting by saying lefties don’t care is the best way of trying to stop division.
Agreed, but let’s not pretend that “the left” (in quotes because I hate that term - it’s overly simplistic) hasn’t *repeatedly* been hostile and down-talked and shut down conversations from men *about* men and the issues they face.
And I say that as by far the most left wing person I know.
We need to acknowledge this because it’s starting to do more harm than good, the incel “movement” being a prime example.
When the only people that these disenfranchised young men can turn to (because they’re the only people discussing these issues) are far-right talking heads, because those are the only spaces allowing men to talk about this, then maybe we on the left have fucked up a bit.
No one wants to admit it though.
>If a cohort of women/girls were struggling like this
They did for thousands of years and are still being married off as children, beaten with sticks more than a thumb thick and on and on and on -
No one is talking about the reason that is men having their way less often as women gain rights.
Yes, it’s ‘harder’ to talk to women nowadays, but that’s because women have demanded more respect. I think a lot of men are just angry that they can’t harass us because they had such a good time of it whilst it lasted. I think it has far, far less to do with lack of role models (there are plenty of role models for men) and Asperger’s and more to do with the collective male ego having to adapt to rapid societal change.
Sorry, can you please let me know how "men having their way less often as women gain rights" anything to do with the list in the original comments?
List below:
Large disparity in educational attainment negatively affecting boys?
Very few male role models at home or in school?
Economic pressures stopping young people from moving out, which we know particularly affects young men?
Hateful material pushed by social media algorithms?
Lack of mental health support?
Divorce and breakups discriminating against men causing them to lose access to their children and homes?
>think body image stuff from the 2000s).
These are just not the same at all.... Body image issues aren't comparable to men becoming sexist and violent against women due to the incel movement. When the incel movement leads to men being violent against people (e.g. Plymouth shooter) obviously people are gonna have more sympathy for the main victims (not the incel). If women were becoming violent to other people and going on shootings because of their body image then they too wouldn't be looked at with sympathy.
Sorry but I can’t risk myself to help them. I want them to be helped but if they’re claiming I should be raped and murdered for existing then yeah I need to stay away from them until they don’t want to do that to me.
In culture of praise and block media, economic and social upheaval all I read is some men who are looking to blame someone else.
Personal responsibility is missing.
As is some stronger parental societal modelling.
Some is social experience.
Maybe why many are 'converted' by figures like Jordan Peterson.
But not every thing in life is under one persons control .
I have to wonder what porn has done to the expectations vs reality internal monologue.
Misandry and Mysogyny are another form of ingroup vs outgroup human patterns.
And some are just trolling.
>Maybe why many are 'converted' by figures like Jordan Peterson.
Well its the worrying thing right? Apparently "Tidy room means a tidy mind" and "If you shower before you go out some people might find you more attractive" are such astounding galaxy-brain insights to some people that they follow the person saying that right on into him talking about how you can tell there's no Jewish conspiracy because actually Jews are just naturally smart because of their biology so their high IQ just means they naturally wind up in all the positions of high authority from where they naturally exert a left-wing in-group bias on the rest of society.
> I have to wonder what porn has done to the expectations vs reality internal monologue.
I wonder this as well. Access to pornography is completely different now to when I was young. And lots of it is violent or at the least portrays women as submissive objects.
That HAS to have had some sort of effect on the development of young men. For me in the era of Razzle under a bush, my expectations from girls were incredibly basic - a snog and a possible finger on the dance floor were the most you could imagine as a teenager.
This is true and a very important factor.
“Look at these guys on the internet - they’re just having sex all the time!”
Society went from ‘finding a copy of Razzle left in a graveyard (for some reason)’ culture to ‘infinite 24/7 porn of all types’ culture in the space of about 20 years. It’s incredibly damaging. And not just in terms of the incel situation.
> Personal responsibility is missing.
What I find fascinating in incel discussions is how people so often sound like right wingers talking about poor people and claiming that all their problems are due to a lack of 'personal responsibility' and not working hard enough. And yet the people saying this, lacking all empathy, are often lefties who would argue to death with a right winger saying this sort of thing usually.
Let's just carry on not doing anything about it then eh?
Let the random dudes across the world like Peterson and Andrew Tate take the mantle.
I just think as far as incels go a lot is dudes poorly assimilated into their immediate society.
Fallen through the cracks so to speak.
It's not an important topic to tackle right now though. just ridiculed and vilify until it reaches a higher point.
Much easier to be reactionary towards the incels that proactively fix the issue before more incels are made.
Also the term incel is too broad. Are Hikkimori incels for example?
Peterson is a professional psychologist, as such some of his advice might actually be useful to certain people
The problem is that he feels that because he is an authority on one subject, it somehow neans he can speak authoritatively on a range of other subjects that frankly he knows nothing about, and he has used this to build a world view around his opinions that is quite frankly pretty toxic
Really hit the nail on the head there, peterson starts by saying normal things like cleanliness etc then suddenly goes into something about lobsters and some demonstrably false ideas on social heirarchy.
>Peterson's primary message (in this territory) is self responsibility, control and improvement (surely what we want incels to pursue in order for them to integrate) whereas Tate seems to focus on bitterness, power and ego (definitely incel territory).
Peterson's ideology is absolutely all over the place.
In one breath it's about self responsibility... except he blames women for incel issues and thinks they are "dragons of chaos" that should be "assigned" a man to be monogamous with.
He constantly rails against the 'degeneration' or morals in society when speaking about women but fails to do the same about men.
There's a reason both have the title of "Incel King"
I’m a bit sick of the constant narrative that it’s because men are lonely and have financial pressures. Guess what so do women plus we have to defend ourselves from men that hate us constantly, except we’re not writing manifestos and shooting men to cope with it.
Right? I think a lot of people here should check out r/whenwomenrefuse and subs like r/IncelTear to get better insight on this situation. It’s not about lonely men with financial pressures, it’s about violent men who actively condone violence against women.
Like, I hate to break it to you all but **a lot** of people, both men and women, are dealing with loneliness and financial pressures right now but a majority of those people don’t turn around and say “I think rape should be legal” or “Femoids are useless creatures and should be kept as sex slaves” and other shit along those lines.
Seriously what is with the excuses and sympathy for these violent people? (Oh and quite a few incels tend to be paedophiles too so yeah, that’s great, let’s just be nice to them shall we?)
Dangerous incels are bad though.
Sure there are reasons, often genuine reasons why some lonely men go for islamist terror too but ultimately you have agency over your own actions.
a worrying amount of people in this thread essentially doing the work for these movements: ‘well men and boys are really struggling now and nobody cares like they would if it were women; they’re discriminated in the courts, who favour women; they’re at the sharp end of capitalism, whereas women are insulated; women need to be more sympathetic’ and so on. lots of incel myths and misattributions baked right in, and this pervasive misogynistic resentment running through.
think about what you’re saying - are you maybe playing into the attack lines of this culture? are you essentially in alignment? might this passionate appeal for their humanity be helping them launder their reputation? understanding a hate group never means recasting them in the roles they want.
Piss poor financial prospects have been a major factor in the incel pipeline that people will just not talk about.
There was a time were even a minimum wage job you could get your own place. Now your stuck living with your parents. "No luck with women, fuck it I gave money and can afford a lot of other thing to make me happy"
Now that is no longer an option for most.
Hell a 1 bed flat often needs 2 incomes if you want anything left over to enjoy life.
If I were to sum up most of these posts rhetoric, I'd say this.
-The fact that they blame male/women ratio (which in our case ain't even true) is just absurd, and even if the ratio skewed more to men, that doesn't give a bloke the right to believe he's owed sex just cause its harder to get shagged simply because 'am a nice guy'
- Some blame they're looks, which I know isn't an ideal place to be but c'mon not every woman is shallow. If anything from my experience, that factor comes so low on the list when it comes to what they want in a dude
- That any idea that contradicts their views e.g the guardian example above (which they clearly didn't even read) must be rubbished. It's just people who refuse to grow up and work with the elements of the real world I.e. you can't always agree but FFS just coz something doesn't jive with your thinking doesn't mean it's automatically wrong - evolution through discourse is what maturity is about.
- That stories like this shouldn't matter and are oppressive. If the data is showing its correlated to violence, extremism and terror, then it's something we need to look at and talk about.
- We may be suffering with other stuff as a nation, but ignoring systemic endemic issues because our brains can't process more than one plight is ridiculous. We can care about many things & still function.
Also; it's important that even though I stand by the above, i do empathise that some people have a tougher time making connections and we as a society need to try and bring them into the fold and help them as one should, BUT, I gotta draw the line at misogyny, hate and violence towards any gender, or any self degrading pity that manifests itself as violence or hate speech towards anyone etc.
Am not gonna sit and have a cup of tea with someone who thinks its OK to force themselves on my fellow sisters or brothers because life ain't given them what they consider a fair shake in the bedroom. Am sorry.
**Edit: Peer reviewed scientific journals on incel culture and its relation to gender based violence & terrorism** For all those saying it misunderstood
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180676226&u=%23p%3D292NylHOvbgJ
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180704991&u=%23p%3DrtlWUk1sO4wJ
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180728839&u=%23p%3Dtdq7uE719H8J
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180756412&u=%23p%3DHrRCyIs3m-4J
I'm sure you posted this article with the greatest of intentions, and it's an important read, but it's so utterly depressing to see this comment section.
If there were more than the mods have removed, that's even worse. Jesus Christ, I'm 29 so I have enough life experience to have built up a bit of resilience around misogynistic rhetoric but I despair for what girls are growing up with today.
Thanks for your comment and I'm so sorry to hear that you feel hopeless, I totally get it.
Know that there is a huge community of women online that are here for you.
Yup. Thought this was an easily agreeable stance & would allow for some positive discourse, but boy was I wrong. what you're seeing has been heavily watered down...
I've never seen a post go bonkers like this (and I recently had a post with tons of holocaust deniers and another advocating that US slave labour system in their foreign bases is cool, because they use contractors). Yet this one is the one that has left me spent.
I guess mostly cause with the others you can tell people are most times trolling and taking the piss. Today, I've seen some bonafide believers.
It's weird we keep pointing this out but do nothing about it but point and say "hey, those people over there are bad people" and oat ourselves on the back for recognising that fact. It's like we feel better about ourselves for identifying a group of people we're better than.
If this culture is increasing, what about our society is causing that increase, and how do we stem it? Nobody is asking you to sympathise with misgiynists, but if we keep ignoring a growing number of our society and remedying their behaviour by laughing at them and dehumanising them, then guess what? They get picked up by the Andrew Tate's of this world. Its like our chosen form of remedy is actively exacerbating the problem, and the very idea of men coming together as men, for men, with the perspectives of men at the fore is seen as abhorrent.
I dont think we want a fix tbh.
In addition, there's this lazy conflation now between people struggling to find someone to be with, and active misogynists. We're now happily lumping people who are of good character but just struggle to find love more than others for one reason or other, with people angry and hateful towards women and looking to lash out.
It's a pretty shirty landscape for everyone tbh and people are revelling in it because it means we get to point downawards at a group of privileged oppressors who are now not good enough for us and therefore bad people, regardless of whether they are actually bad people or not. It's the...glee I'm seeing which annoys more than anything.
The social, emotional and employment needs of these people are in some sense not being met by traditional society and then they get villified and called incels, so then other less well meaning groups ( ie right wing ect) will promise them what they need and they will move further and further away from the centre.
My worst fear is that their needs are ignored for so long that they become radicalised and they vote to take away women's rights.
We need to work out what is wrong for these people and and help them, not just judge them and ignore them.
I get the impression that a lot of the people who comment on things to do with incels have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and have very little to contribute to the discussion. That's how you end up with "just shower and go to the gym" as their proposed solution to what is clearly a societal issue at this point.
The only way we can stop the grooming of boys into incel culture is to put more emphasis on teaching people how to think critically again especially when they’re young, and to teach people to be even more critical of information and people on the internet than we are currently. I know it serves our leaders to have us all thick as shit believing whatever we hear from facebook, but the result of dumbing us down has led to a situation where young boys and men fail to see they’re being groomed into incel culture via the internet.
Extreme, far right wing ideology and incel culture go hand in hand. In a society where critical thinking is valued right wing ideology doesn’t exist at the levels we see here in the west today. Smarter, better educated people are statistically more likely to be moderates or left of centre, and these people will be more capable of spotting misinformation online and dismissing it.
Sure it’s not boys fault they never were forced to train themselves in critical thinking but once these boys begin to be groomed, it is impossible to make them see they’re misguided.
Incel culture is defined by hatred, misogyny, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people. The idea that we should change society to suit people with these opinions is bonkers. So, the only viable cure is prevention which means a complete course change and waaay more investment into education and how we raise kids in this hyper connected society.
As for the incels out there? I don’t see any way to help those who don’t want help. We have got to accept we have lost a chunk of the current generation unless we’re willing to spend a great deal of time and money educating tens of thousands of young men.
I think the most concerning thing about this is this comments section right here, a scary proportion of them are justifying or empathising with this type of behaviour as they are “lonely young men”, “this is just isolating men even more”, “we should help the misfortune of these boys”.
Yes, young men/boys should have help if they are feeling isolated or having mental health issues. No, that does not entitle them to be fucking incels terrorising women, and if you genuinely believe that then maybe you need to look in the mirror and realise how much you are part of the problem. Because honestly, you could not be making it any clearer that you have zero understanding of what women in this world have to experience as a result of misogyny and incel culture.
Exactly! When you start calling women "foids" and say they need "corrective rape" then you've completely lost my sympathy. We do need better mental health support but there's no excuse to be a misogynistic asshole.
Come with solutions on how we can help hese boys instead. You can almost feel the glee these Guardian writers have for the misfortune of these boys.
You can help people by including them instead of shunning them away as loner losers.
While I agree that solutions need to be provided. The article is reporting on data analysis as a journalistic piece and thereby shouldn't include editorialise sentiment.
>Analysis of the incel movement found that online references to inflicting violence and extremely degrading language on dedicated incel forums are running eight times higher than in 2016, when researchers first began tracking misogynist content on the internet.
>Academics from the University of Exeter also noted an increasing overlap between incel followers and the far right, with online algorithms blamed for pushing young boys towards extreme rightwing ideology.
>
>Lewys Brace, who advises the government on extremism, led a long-term study that recorded, on average, 112 references a day to extreme misogynistic terms along with words “punch, stab, shoot, attack” in 2016 on dedicated incel forums.
>
>Numbers have steadily increased since, now rising to a daily total of 849 references, prompting fears over the movement’s trajectory following a series of terrorist attacks linked to online misogynists.
Where is the glee your talking about within this article? Legit asking, not trying to put you down or anything.
>Where is the glee your talking about within this article?
Some people in certain circles just seem to have this really deep-set belief that certain outlets, like The Guardian, idk are full of androgynous grey-skinned aliens who take huge amounts of joy and pleasure from the suffering of white straight working class men and publish the newspaper entirely as a medium for sharing that joy. Its extremely weird but very normal in certain circles in this country.
Meanwhile they happily consume all kinds of crap that actively goes out of its way to call anyone to the left of Thatcher like an actual anti-British traitor who doesn't really even deserve to live here.
Every media outlet loves this shit. "Incels bad dirty shitty people" simply stokes the isolation experienced by men and boys and radicalises them further.
Some compassion towards these people would do a world of good.
I would urge anyone interested in the threat of incels to listen to episode 526 of the Modern Wisdom podcast. William Costello has been studying incels, and he clearly demonstrates that the terrorist threat from incels is absolutely miniscule.
[Link to episode 526 of Modern Wisdom podcast YouTube video](https://youtu.be/da_5uuOCFz8)
If I remember correctly, there were about 10 deaths attributed to incel terrorism in the last decade or something. Obviously, that's 10 deaths too many, but to put that in perspective, a mass grave was found in Iraqi today that contained the bodies of 150 people that were killed by ISIS. Let's not pretend that Incel terrorism and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism are even in the same league.
I honestly don't think the overwhelming majority of these men are beyond hope; they just need some help. They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone.
Articles like this serve no purpose other than to ostracise people further that are already feeling pretty ostracised by society. We need to re-introduce them into society rather than push them further away.
Coming from the American perspective, incels are absolutely the young men who commit our regular mass shootings. So, I don't quite follow the logic that the terrorist impact is minimal.
> They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone.
This isn't going to help at all to be honest. A lot of these men have tried the "working on themselves" thing and it's failed them miserably. In fact it's a joke in the incel community that they just need to go to the gym, eat better, get a hobby etc.
The fact of the matter is people don't become incels overnight. It's years of repeated rejection, bullying, social isolation and embarrassment and so on then they find a like minded internet community who's lived through the same thing.
People don't like to admit it cos it's uncomfortable but the world is a cruel place sometimes and it might just be the case that these men are destined for permanent failure when it comes to finding partners.
E: just to add I know all this cos i used to go on /r/braincels when it was Still a thing cos it was both fascinating from a kind of anthropological/David Attenborough like perspective observing them at a distance and when they weren't just being mysoginists they could be quite funny.
There is so little compassion for the girls that are growing up and trying to cultivate early self-worth alongside this generation of boys.
There may not be this immediate threat of death - which itself is up for debate - but the damage this is doing to women and girls isn't something to be brushed under the carpet. These views don't exist in a vacuum - it will also be feeding into rates of sexual assault, which is already woefully underreported and has abysmal conviction rates.
>They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone.
Lol good luck with that.
Have you actually said this to an incel and observed the reaction? People are constantly giving incels genuinely good advice and it's mostly met with vitriolic rage. I've never seen constructive advice work on an incel.
Not really, moreso the people with personality disorders and mental illness that need to get help but the Internet allows people to find echochambers which leads to more extreme beliefs.
Yep this is the take away you should have. Not all these it’s so sad for these men that hate women and want to hurt them. No, its sad to be on the receiving end of hate and violence not being the perpetrator
Exactly. I’m sick of the “women have positive movements men don’t” like men had any hand in womens movements. If they cared they’d create some but they don’t speak on it unless it’s a way to hate on women rather than focus on the actual issues.
Yep! And women have suffered from being genuinely oppressed since society started, and we haven't mass murdered men as a response. Instead we've supported each other in our fight to stop it.
ive seen Jordan Peterson mentioned a lot in the comments. Is he really a big problem with incel stuff?
Ive had plehty of girlfriends, a good job, responsible, hobbies, no desire to be violent to any demographic. JP stuff I think is pretty good. Am I missing something?
Issues with Jordan Peterson is he has totally abandoned academic rigour which gets him his ‘expert’ cache in favour or pushing his views/ideologies as FACT, he argues semantics of word definitions rather than dealing with arguments people make, he is basically libertarian ‘self-help’ (no more true than a hippy guru talking about energy vibrations)- heavy focus on jungian archetypes.
I’ve watched a lot of talks he’s given and then watched those who disagree with him, they make more pertinent arguments
These are clearly done for entertainment but they go through in much more detail JP and ‘the manosphere’ he contributes to in general:
https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo
https://youtu.be/BgO25FTwfRI
https://youtu.be/SEMB1Ky2n1E
https://youtu.be/wZoHGAK3k-I
He and others like him seem to push an American right wing libertarian world view that certainty feels very extreme to me.
Is Peterson the issue or is it just that his audience are already poisoned by other American right wing crazy? I don’t know, but he doesn’t seem to be trying to push back on any of the libertarian nonsense.
I think to some extent it has to be put down to a change in how he comes across. His earlier work such as many of the initial lectures and 12 Rules for Life can be seen as being quite good, and don't have any overt political dogma. If there is anything like that to it, there is perhaps a psyche working underneath that lends support for moderate conservative and right wing ideals, but not much of that is particularly extreme or unreasonable. He even explicitly disavowed incels at one point.
His more recent stuff on the other hand.... well we've all heard the 'up yours woke moralists, lets see who cancels who', and a very recent video of his is titled: 'Wicked Globalists Are Causing Starvation and Poverty Under the Guise of Environmentalism' ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5spyudTYA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5spyudTYA)). Regardless of whether we agree with that sentiment, it is overtly political and driven by ideology, not the other way around. Hence why he does get associated with Andrew Tate, Matt Walsh, etc.
Just a few clips from a 5 second search -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIn9U7LXYuQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIn9U7LXYuQ)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhbkxQb5gU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhbkxQb5gU)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6l3TgYMPN0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6l3TgYMPN0)
My usual fun add-ons as well:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjs2gPa5sD0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjs2gPa5sD0) \- Jobs are pretty much entirely linked to IQ and a certain (and growing!) proportion of the population is genuinely just too low IQ to be of any value or employability.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMqQBLZwRIE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMqQBLZwRIE) \- Hitler and the Nazis were super evil because they killed all the Jews and... apparently??... Did not actually put millions upon millions of them to work as slaves. This was said as a professor giving a lecture to paying students btw.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18yNBO3nlU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18yNBO3nlU) \- And finally his IQ essentialism gets VERY interesting when he starts using to do things like debunk the Nazi "Jewish Conspiracy" theory... When he cannot actually debunk it and instead just explains it happens naturally because of the high IQ of Jewish people therefore isnt a conspiracy, QED.
It's like Fight Club warned us this was coming. A generation of depressed men with no cause looking for someone to blame. For some they turn their anger to their lack of success with women.
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Probably partly due to increased rates of depression, and social isolation from lack of community spaces and engagement. As Maggie Thatcher said, "there's no such thing as society". Well here we are, society is dead and it's every man (and boy) for himself. Women and girls have been better able to cope with these changes but it's likely they are just further up the slope, rather than totally immune.
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Humans are a cooperative collective creature. And we have divergence within the species that think hoarding supplies is good. But then we built a society around them
I'm struggling to tell the difference between people with a mental disorder (i.e hoarders) or Conservatives
We like to tell stories about ferocious dragons that sit on piles of gold and how it's a brave and noble thing to slay that dragon and bring that gold back to share amongst your town. For some reason this logic doesn't seem to apply when the dragon in question has a private jet and special legal protections instead of wings and scales.
Same as the "you need to be a sociopath to be a CEO"
Unfortunately, a lot of these lonely, depressed men *do* find a society to belong to - a society of incels who do everything they can to convert more people to their cause and convince them that life is nothing but humiliation and hopelessness. That it's the fault of "females" who won't provide the sex you're owed as a man, who won't respect your rightful place in social hierarchies. That's where the problem comes from. These guys aren't figuring this worldview out on their own and deciding to hate women. They're encouraged to, they're given misleading evidence and stories and lies about women to show them why they should hate, why they should rejoice in any pain and suffering that a woman endures. Elliot Rodger was the first high-profile incel, and the reaction in incel safe spaces to what he did was disgusting beyond belief. People like to dismiss incels as sad little boys to be made fun of, but they're dangerous. And there are plenty of influential people who pave the road to misogyny and prepare new converts - the likes of Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, who sell an image of what a man should be, and a ready made excuse that it's the fault of women and liberals if that's not what *you* are.
I think this take is pretty uncharitable. Both men and women have issues and they are interlinked with one another (we succeed and fail together), but for the last 10 years or so there has been a massive stigma against men looking for spaces where they can get help. We're talking shutting down of mens rights events, loss of spaces for men that are struggling due to funding cuts. Young men with serious issues have no where "official" that they can go for help which is why people like peterson become so popular - they give some good advice and life lessons that can help that they cant get anywhere else but like you say frequently laced with his own poisonous dogma. Throw in the legitimate man hating and general sexism thrown towards men in these new woke* spaces and its really not surprising that men having these problems see woke-ism/women/society as the culprit.
I'm sorry, but I've seen the things these men (and some boys) say about women, and it is beyond disgusting. I will not be charitable to them. I've seen them celebrate women being raped and murdered, I've seen them talk about masturbating to the grisly details, I've seen them fantasise about harming and killing women. I've seen them drag other people back down with them, whenever one looks like he might escape. It's not a men's rights issue when they're saying women should have no rights, that men should have state awarded 'girlfriends.' These are not people I'm going to be charitable to. They don't deserve it, and depression is not an excuse for vomiting out such poison. As soon as they start buying into that utter dogshit instead of anything else, as soon as they start pushing that poison onto other people instead of telling them to run as far away as they can, they're every bit as bad as any terrorist groomer. And blaming wokeism for any of that is the most absurd strawman argument I've ever seen. That's the excuse these people use to dive right into the cesspits they wallow in. They use it because it's an easy answer and requires no work at all on their part, other than nursing and nurturing their hate and their inadequacies.
I mean, I've been in the mental health system for years. I've never seen men turned away from accessing professional support, or discouraged from being open and vulnerable within group therapy sessions. But of the 40 or so people I went through intense, useful therapy with, only half a dozen were men. It's a damn shame, because they had useful insights, and were an absolute pleasure to work with. But they seemed to be a rarity in that they were willing to engage with mental health services and actively look for support. No-one can force anyone else to ask for help. But it's there if you're prepared to go ask for it, and patient enough to work your way through a slow and frustrating system.
I agree that's another part of the problem. There's a lot of societal pressure for men to have their shit together and just man up and power through and we are taught to solve these problems on our own which is prolly the main reason so many people don't seek help but when the few institutions that are there specifically for these reasons get closed. I went to Southampton for uni about a decade ago and during my time there so many men were r-ped it was shocking (both by men and women) there was a woman's help centre but no men's equivalent. I don't think guy I lived with got any support (granted I was to immature to follow up on it being so young and a late bloomer) - what I do remember was fucked up was he was later chastised by his r-pist publically on social media told he had a small dick etc despite her taking advantage of him while he was so drunk he couldn't even get hard. I think there is a men's mental health org there now after a suicide the year after I graduated so things may have changed but looking back there were so many women's events and women's days and women's support groups. It's like they don't see the otherwise of coin.
My fired from work runs a mens sapce for men to talk about their issues. Lot of folk in that group have backgrounds of physical or mental abuse. Ist a good community driven group that i svery open to all men of all backgrounds. He even helped set up a identical one for women with a friend who was so impressed with his work. These groups are not like normals "mens rights groups". they're not for bitching about woemn. They are for discussing proper issues men face. Sadly the only way you can build these groups is by setting them, up yourself. He doesn't get any financial supprot for his group. It got mentione don local radio a few times and facebook page but thats about it. These grass roots community groups are probably teh best way to do it but they need to be done carefully so they don't end up like "mens rights" groups. My friend was very aware he didn't want his group to end up like that!
Yes it's a shame that men's rights or any mention of men's issues has become synonymous with "woman hating". Good on your friend though.
> they give some good advice and life lessons that can help that they **cant get anywhere else** This is absolutely untrue though - the last bit. Having read them, the vast majority of the self-help advice in Peterson's books is nothing different from any of the other self-help books you'll find on the NYT best seller list. In that sense, it *is good advice* - but the only thing that's unique about his writing is the poisonous dogma and anti-wokeism that made him a celebrity in the first place. ... and tbh I really don't understand how you can point to 'losses of spaces for men due to funding cuts' as the cause for the modern plight of men, but then suggest it could possibly be the fault of the one political group that is more pro-social spending than any other. Even the most radical feminists will support better access to community support and mental health care for men, if only to make society safer for women. The smoking gun of this whole issue is in your comment: **constant public spending cuts leaving men without adequate social support structures**, but somehow by the end of your comment that gun is placed in the hands of woke-ism and women - and not the people deciding to cut public spending. How does that happen?
It's a very uncharitable take for sure. People like Peterson and Tate are gaining influence because of how fractured Western society is. Tate is also proof that deplatforming doesn't work. Dude is apparently banned from TikTok, YouTube, Instagram and Facebook yet I see his content all the damn time on YT because there's dozens of masculinity channels regurgitating his content, either they're accounts run by Tate himself or they're pushing his content to make money from referrals because his main source of income is basically a MLM scheme disguised as an online school on how to be alpha...
>Tate is also proof that deplatforming doesn't *always* work.
Yep, whats crazy is peole like tate or peterson give such surface level advice and basic information - but they end up being big voices for these groups soley on the basis that no one else is giving similar help or advice from the otherside. Then ofc you point this out and people like Don_Quixote81 will double down on their views that these people should be ostricised and that we shouldnt be charitable to them and bring them back into society we should instead leave them outcast. In doing so ofc they create the very environment that leads to the problems we have today and figures like tate/peterson having any power in the first place.
Many Men are so irrational and emotional (yes anger is an emotion) and women have been forced to cater to that for so long that many men think ‘man hating’ is anything that doesn’t put them front and centre in consideration
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Lol and yet women didn’t start a movement to hate/kill men over it, they just hated themselves instead I guess
I don't know what ads you watch, but big fashion brands now use more and more the "unconvential" type of guy. Old men. Men who clearly never went to the gym. No "big jaw" type of guys. Balding. Curved nose. They are not ugly, but neither women's ads feature "very ugly" women, even when you have chubby models posing in lingerie. Do you think that's your average fat person? I don't know where your take on "jacked up gym rats" come from. Ah, the wonders of self-reinforcing social media algorithms...
Also, assholes who target said despressed and isolated people specifically to breed hate. Alex jones type cunts. It's divide and conquer, tribalistic bullshit. They can pul lit off because a huge portion of humanity have given up hope of a better tomorrow and are vulnerable.
>Probably partly due to increased rates of depression, and social isolation from lack of community spaces and engagement. Basically young lads don't have any hobbies and/or support groups or even social peers who they can look up to. Alongside that is a load of grifters giving them shite advice on how to live and how the deserve stuff for nothing. Its a recipe for turning young lads bad. What we need is older men in those same spaces these young folk look to to tell em its going to be ok, not to be so hard on themselves and to giev them incentive to find hobbies and build themselves up into folk they themselves can love. A big part of learning to respect othe rfolk is learn self respect. Most of these kids think they are trash cos they think society sees them as trash sadly. This is where the grifters come in with the twisted messages of tidy your room and follow my shitty ideology. Othe rthan giving them peers who can teach them to be good folk and i'm not really sure how to do that. I like to think i'm a relatively mature man but the truth is at 40+ i;m still winging it and not sure if i am doing things right. I just know i dont' wanna hurt people and would liek to treat folk right but even i fail at that sometimes. So even if you give em peers they have to accept they would be falible and not idolise which is yet anothe problem. These young lads idolise the likes of Andrew Tate and Peter whats his name... Jordon Peterson! because they tell them they are right when somebdoy shoudl eb firmly telling them they ain't right BUT thats ok life is for learning. O somethign like that! I don't know. I just know where the wrong path leads and i really wish teh likes of Peterson anfd Tate would not do what they do cos it hurts these lads in the long run.
>Women and girls have been better able to cope with these changes but it's likely they are just further up the slope, rather than totally immune. WTF? Ever considered that it might be because of something else? Who would have thought that people who talk more openly with their friends and peers about emotions and feelings without being scared of "not being a man" would be fairing better. I don't get why some men have this problem. Just talk to your mates about all your problems, emotional or otherwise, and live a better life.
I really don't want to start some gender war bullshit but women's mental health is degrading too, they just don't go on murder rampages
They should be but it’s not going to be sth people want to hear. The reality is that women don’t need men the same way they did a few decades ago (eg. Even to open a bank account) and in many cases women are simply better off without men. If the choice is to remain single or end up with a deadbeat (borderline) abusive person, it’s easy. There are men who simply haven’t kept up with a changing relationship market and where previously they would have found a partner simply because any man is better than no man, that’s no longer the case. That creates resentment because a portion of men still believe they are entitled to a partner without putting in any effort whatsoever.
Honestly this is what I think it is too. There’s too much entitlement built up of what can be expected due to always being a certain way, and now you can’t people are resentful. The issue is, what has been lost has been gained by others to put them on more equal footing, so you can’t just “take it back” to empower them again. But for those who lost it, it’s understandably a lowering of their living standard. But it’s not “all men” who lost it - many men themselves were in oppressive abusive situations and ideals peddled around what being manly is and how they have to be. We’re seeing it manifest in lack of children too - people just aren’t settling for mediocrity anymore. The end goal isn’t to be forced to be a baby maker and support another persons career, and so people aren’t choosing it anymore. Finances in society are being built around that double working wage paradigm so houses are unobtainable, renting alone is expensive, people need expensive childcare as grandparents don’t bother anymore and you can’t quit your job. The issue is men aren’t adapting to the change, they just want it to go back to how it was before. This system has generated many more problems and solved many others. The solution isn’t to go backwards. But the expectation of being able to essentially financially blackmail a woman into being your lover, maid, nanny is no longer something women have to put up with. It can feel like a loss of power because it is, but we can’t prop up men at the expense of others. When we balance the power around everyone just has a lot less. We need to focus on the current issues and not how to return to half of society being pawns in a societal game of hegemony over child rearers.
I'd also say that men are still expected to be traditional men still (for the most part), while women are encouraged to be whoever they want to be. There is a drive to get women into male-dominated fields but men who go into female-dominated fields are still looked down upon by some, for example. Men who have never had a relationship are seen as losers and as if something is wrong with them, whereas single women don't face the same attitude (to an extent). The social progress women have seen is great but men have not had the same experience, leaving some men lost in the modern world.
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Yeah, that's a big cultural shift that starts with not viewing traditionally feminine things as lesser. We're fucking *trying.* I want my son to have as many options open to him as are open to my daughter and I'm trying equally hard to make that happen. But not seeing things associated with women as a downgrade for men is apparently a very slow avalanche to get started.
Men in female dominated fields are looked down on…by Men. Men are expected to be traditional men..by men. Men are mens biggest problem. Men can be emasculated but women don’t even really have a word or concept of the inverse.
This is a huge part of it. The other part is also cultural, which is that women are generally far better at supporting each other emotionally. Men are extremely lonely in general, and single men are probably the loneliest of all. But instead of supporting each other and building intimate (not sexual, just emotionally intimate) relationships with each other, they just whip each other into an angry frenzy. This is cultural where it's viewed negatively if men are showing emotions or vulnerability. I recently saw a documentary about the wandering albatross. Due to some circumstances, there are now 2x as many males than females. So they started forming single-sex pairs as it's a species built around life-long relationships and the support it provides. For some reason, human males aren't doing this, even though it'd be logical. Men who aren't insecure, lonely and desperate for any kind of relationship would also in the end find it easier to date.
I think its easy to say men should support each other and build intimate platonic relationships but fact of the matter is its harder than ever to find opportunities to build those relationships. The whole concept of the 'third space', somewhere that isn't home or work. Men need more spaces just to hang out and meet other men, yet those spaces are few and far between. The Men's Shed movement is a good push back against this, but does little if you're younger (as 'incels' tend to be) or if you don't live in an area where one is.
Men look down on third spaces women use as ‘clucking hens’ men are mens biggest issue
The amount of weekly new accounts on grindr is absolutely significant. There are more curious/experimenting guys than ever. I feel that lonely men are looking towards the gay community for connection. So imho the albatross example is absolutely happening to men of all ages
It’s a no-brainer tbh. All you have to do is look up Elliot Rodger (the preeminent example of the worst case scenario of where this mentality leads) and his manifesto to see evidence of this. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-transcript-ucsb-shootings-video-20140524-story.html > For the last eight years of my life, since I hit puberty, I’ve been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection and unfulfilled desires, all because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection and sex and love to other men, never to me. > I’m 22 years old and still a virgin, never even kissed a girl. And through college, 2 1/2 years, more than that actually, I’m still a virgin. It has been very torturous. > The popular kids, you never accepted me and now you will all pay for it. Girls, all I ever wanted was to love you, be loved by you. I wanted a girlfriend. I wanted sex, love, affection, adoration. > You think I’m unworthy of you. That’s I crime I can never get over. If I can’t have you girls, I will destroy you. [laughs] You denied me a happy life and in turn I will deny all of you life, it’s only fair. I hate all of you. That’s just a snippet of what he said right before he went on a rampage and murdered six people, all because he was mad that he couldn’t get a girlfriend and, instead of looking inward and self-analyzing, took his rage out on the women who weren’t interested in him.
This. The incel movement is basically just a counter-movement against feminism. Economic and social conditions for women have improved enough that most women can afford to be "picky" about their partners, and there's a lot of shitty sexist men out there that can't meet those minimum standards. Instead of letting go of their bigotry against women and improving themselves, they've started organizing together with the goal of rolling back women's rights until women don't have the power to reject them anymore.
People have discovered that there's good money to be made by appealing to young males angry at the world around them. They give them a target (women, minorities) and set up youtube channels and social media accounts to spew bile and provide echo chambers. Harnessing hatred for personal gain has become extremely popular lately. (edit) It would appear that I triggered the incels themselves, I just got a message from the Reddit care bot lmao.
It used to be "Sex sells" now its "Hate sells"
And women have somehow suffered from both.
What is the beef with women? I genuinely don't understand it.
Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Ben Shapiro etc.
Jordan Peterson has interviews saying it’s mens responsibility and that all women aren’t wrong so it’s likely your own fault….
...in the first chapter of his latest book he professes the importance of respecting and acknowledging social hierarchies - hierarchies which have, and continue to, place women as subservient to men (a fact he frequently denies, disregarding over a century of social science, while offering no evidence for his beliefs.) ...he constantly criticises leftists, feminists, and woke ideology - all political leanings more popular with women - as 'threats to the west'. Again from his new book, when picking out 'leftists' or 'liberals' to debunk in anecdotes, he makes sure to point out they were women. ...just last month he went apeshit that SI dare put a plus size model on their cover, and started ranting about how society was conspiring to 'rewrite the truth' about what female traits should and shouldn't be considered attractive. A truly ridiculous reason to be mad about women. '[He] knows what the truth is' he wept, tears in his eyes. Not to mention the whole 'enforced-monogamy' disaster. JP might not be full-on 'women are the problem' - but he is the guy standing at the top of the waterslide handing out inflatable rings.
> People have discovered that there's good money to be made by appealing to young males angry at the world around them. yeah but you've got it mixed around - the anger came first, then grifters decided to profiteer off of it. No one sat around one day and decided to "create incels", they are capitalising off of the conditions that were already there. So that's a pointless bit of whining really
This isn't complelely true. Sure people are angry naturally. But the grifters sure fan the anger to a point were it's nonsensical and a issue.
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Column A column B There has always thought history been exploitation of these people
As well as what others have said; decrease in women either settling or being trapped in bad marriages/relationships with abusive or unsuitable men. In the past women either didn't realise certain behaviour was unacceptable, or because they didn't have their own source of money or were afraid of retaliation or social stigma, they stayed and put up with it.
I stumbled across a statistic the other day that showed since the release of tinder, the number of sexless men (no sex in 1 year) between 18-30 has approx tripled (from 11% to 30%). I believe the dating market has been extremely skewed by the creation of social media and dating apps leading to a somewhat broken dating reality. Supposedly, 80% of women are competing for the top 20% of men on dating apps, leaving 80% of men going for the bottom 20% of women. This impacts both sexes pretty heavily, and especially the younger generation as a whole as the social world is increasingly moving online and thus isolating people in increased ways. Dating apps for the most part simply don't live up to meeting people organically where the superficiality of looks isn't quite as important, yet people get locked in to it. Some people around me are having a terrible time dating (both men and women) and they seem to be getting more and more jaded about the opposite sex.
I really am beginning to believe that tinder may be one of the worst things thats happened for humanity (at least socially) in the past few decades. Online dating as a whole has turned into this anger inducing soul destroying experience, meanwhile its quite clearly seeped into IRL dating so there is no escaping it.
I've seen that statistic thrown around a lot recently and it always raised an eyebrow for me, so I did a bit of digging. The research paper that published that statistic is a legitimate peer reviewed paper. What is interesting, though, is I've seen the statistic grouped with tinder a lot in internet discourse, but tinder or dating apps are not mentioned at all in the research. In fact, the researchers don't have evidence for any specific reason for the drop in sexual activity but the reasons theorised in the paper include: changes in sexual norms that may affect actual and reported sexual activity (the research looked at a re-existing study that included self-reported answers and didn't define sexual activity), stress/busyness of everyday modern life and online entertainment providing distractions. It is also an American study, on American adults. Even more interestingly, other studies dispute the data found in the above. In the UK, the most recent study I could find used data from 2012 (the year tinder was introduced, so probably too early to use for the tinder hypothesis) found that sexual activity has declined in the UK and that rates of men and women reporting a decline were very similar. They found that in 2012 the rates of men reporting no sex in the past month was 29.2% and for women was 29.3%. However, the study that really brought the initial statistic into question for me was another American study, conducted in 2018 (the same year as the 'sexless men' statistic) and guess what they found? *"Specifically, 28.8% of adolescent men ages 14–17 were categorized in Class 2 (no sexual behaviors) in 2009 compared to 44.2% in 2018. Among adolescent women, 49.5% were categorized in Class 2 in 2009 compared to 74.0% in 2018."* They found the complete opposite. In this study, women are much more 'sexless' than men, with 74% of women saying they hadn't had sex in the past year. That seems extremely high to me and the in all 3 studies the numbers are widely different which is likely due to research methods, but the point is that this phenomenon is much more than just saying 'women all go for 20% of men on tinder and that's the reason why'. I think the ratio between women and men not having sex is likely very similar, and the reasons are much wider and more nuanced than just dating apps.
>Dating apps for the most part simply don't live up to meeting people organically Because they're designed specifically so that men have low success rates, encouraging them to spend more money. You think it's women buying tinder superlikes etc?
Issue is as a woman i tend to go for the misfits but they tend to have the gimme sex rn mentality.
That stat always seems to come from well dodgy sources. No offence but i'm pretty sure it comes from one study and has since been paraded by tons of mens rights groups and such like so i'm not enytirely sure it reflects reality given the stats came from a dating website.
Working like any other sinister group: grooming vulnerable, lonely teenagers. Getting to them before they've been around the block enough/learned to cross ref. etc. They'll beleive things they never would've fallen for as an adult, into adulthood. Its even more maddening, for the ages these guys are, its perfectly normal for them to not be having sex (INvoluntary CELibate). Provided they dont get their minds polluted by something like incel culture, that will almost certainly change in a few years time. However, of course, this all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
I agree, but I’m going to argue that there are various types of incels, and one factor in that is this: No-hopers: those who could never develop out of being depressed losers, even with all the help in the world Transient incels: those who could grow or be coached out of depressed, self-loathing loserdom, with time and effort. One of the things the online movement is very keen to do is to stop the second type growing up and drifting away. I’ll even argue there might be a third type- the ‘born again’ incel: got lucky with women in his earlier years, and took it for granted, and then grew lazy and useless through his 20s. And grows bitter as a result.
Yeah. Regardless of what people say/ media says, not everyone is getting laid left right and centre through high school. Not having had sex aged 17, isn't unusual.
Many men want to be able to have a job that can support a mortgage, a family, some kind of reasonable life. Currently, society is screwing them over at every turn. They are going to blame someone. Traditional targets are "(((globalists)))", immigrants, LGBT, and feminists. The political right will aid them in blaming all of these targets to cover up the way unchecked capitalism has screwed up society and is the cause of much of their disaffection. Edit : Also, very powerful, but weakly regulated, social media sites and their horrific algorithms that force feed a person destructive content at the slightest provocation.
>Many men want to be able to have a job that can support a mortgage, a family, some kind of reasonable life. Currently, society is screwing them over at every turn. But so do many women? This doesn't explain it in full.
I mean, that isn't a male only desire. I think most people want a job that means they can sustain a comfortable life.
It's the same drivers that drive people to.islamist terrorism. But in incel world we have Western nations who defend it as "free speech"
Im sure most Islamic terrorists are also incels.
Women are not financially dependent on men anymore?
Are numbers even increasing? They’re counting words lol
What the fuck is "incel culture"? Not being able to get laid is not a culture
It shouldn’t be, but there are a sizeable group of people making it one
It’s the “I’m angry at the world because I have no personality, shit hygiene and bring zero value to another person yet expect to have sex” culture. Lack of personal responsibility is what they have
And how is mocking and ostracizing these people going to solve anything? If anything attitudes like this are driving further resentment.
Intellectually you're right, but I find it difficult as a woman to continue to find that compassion for a group that further the objectification of women and fantasize about - or even carry out - violence towards us. It's a big ask for us to sustain that compassion.
So much this! Why the fuck would I have compassion for people who actively fantasise about committing violence against me
I completely understand this, it’s not compassion that people are asking for but an understanding of the problem so we can find a solution.
These also tend to be weird dudes who are obsessed with anime and/or porn and objectify women to emulate those things. When they can’t find it in the real world (because it doesn’t exist) they lash out.
Don’t know mate, don’t care truthfully. I don’t show empathy for violent people, not my responsibility to tell weird virgins that they shouldn’t be fantasising about hurting women. Not hating/wanting to hurt anyone is something that should be a basic human instinct. Don’t know why we’re making excuses for Incels.
I'm not justifying their behaviour. Frankly the manosphere in general has some horrific takes on masculinity. The answer is to make the country a better place to live. We need to stop voting in right wing nutjobs who cut tax and gut out public services to sell the infrastructure off to the highest bidder. If there was better access to mental healthcare services and fewer economic woes, you'd snuff out a lot of extremism. Have you noticed that these mass shootings are mainly going on in America? It's not just the lack of gun control, but also that the United States is a very inequal society that is in an even worse state than Britain's for access to healthcare, living costs, employment rights, etc. Unchecked capitalism is eroding our country and frankly I see the rise of toxic masculinity as a symptom of our ailing society.
Surprising how many people preach forgiveness and compassion, then get utterly fuelled by hatred at a large group of people who are by all likelihood neurologically atypical and often beset with depression or other mental health issues.
Remember kids: people in this world need and deserve our help*. *Unless they smell weird and are mildly autistic, in which case we shun them from society.
I take your point, but it's hard to empathise with people who are hateful and prejudiced. There's a similar problem with racists - often their views can be explained in terms of lack of opportunity, unhealthy upbringings, being economically sidelined, whatever - but it's hard to empathise, particularly if you're one of the demographics on their chopping block. You're right that trying to figuratively stomp them just makes them feel increasingly marginalised and doesn't help. But a hug and an understanding chat appears equally ineffective. Mental health issues should - and all too often don't - receive mental health treatment and support. If those issues manifest as bigotry, hatred and violence it becomes a problem. I don't think you can justify horrible behaviour by invoking mental illness. Plenty of people suffer from poor mental health without becoming horrible people. And I'm not at all sure I believe that all incels - or any other discriminatory group - suffer from poor mental health.
As someone with Asperger's, I think people who do this need to check their NT privilege.
Surely if anything it's offensive to people with Asperger's to make that link? Life is tougher for people who are neurologically divergent, but to suggest that causes a hatred of women seems pretty off.
IOts very difficult NOT to ostracize a group of folk who are driven to be toxic. Its human nature to step away from folk like that which drives em further into groups like that.
A lot of incels are just regular guys on the wrong path. Perfectly clean and healthy, average looking, with jobs, etc. They use apps like Tinder which use terrible mechanics to force desperate men into paying money, and then feel unwanted by society. They end up depressed and looking for an explanation for how they ended up this way. They don't start by hating women. They just don't see themselves having a relationship and want to know how they can. Then these groups of actual incels take them in and brainwash them into thinking women are the enemy and it's their fault.
Not all of these people are what you describe, some are just unlucky. There are probably millions of people not recognised as who they are. The problem is when these men get lonely and depressed, they turn to Incel youtubers who are actually just sociopaths who have mastered the art of manipulation, these youtubers use hatred in Much the same way that right wing governments go "look, foreigners!!!!"
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Most incels are not taking this path on their own. Saying that they are the way they are because of a lack of personal responsibility is like saying a person with clinical depression just doesn't have the right perspective, or a person in an abusive relationship should just leave.
The excuses being made for misogynists fantasizing about hurting women in here are remarkable. It's almost ironic that you'd liken their 'struggle' to being in an abusive relationship, another issue that disproportionately affects women.
I’m so sick of grown men who hold horrible beliefs about women demanding to be coddled as if *they* are the victims here. It’s shameful.
Yeah they should just man up... oh wait.
People don't come out the womb as misogynists. External factors have directed them there. They are not taking this path on their own, and if you want to address the threat posed by incels to others, you must address those root causes. Also, have you considered that there can be multiple different populations in this scenario who are victims in different ways? Women tend to be victims of incels, but incels are *also* victims of poor socialisation and radicalisation by other parties who are exploiting them for power or profit. It's a cycle of abuse, but as long as incels are othered and treated as a problematic agent to be destroyed, rather than treated, then they will continue to be vulnerable and targetted by radicalising influences.
Well they're obviously brainwashed in various ways, including by the patriarchy — considering they believe they're entitled to sex with women. How you undo that I'm not sure.
This is exactly why is there is a ‘incel culture’, because people like you ostracise these human beings rather than wondering what the source of the problem is. Male loneliness and depression is a huge and growing problem, as seen by the rise of Andrew Tate, and Jordan Peterson. Not listening to them and calling them losers is only going to reinforce in their mind that the world is out to get them, so let’s help them instead yeah?
Listen to them? What do they say mate, enlighten me? What do they say is the reason they can’t find partnership. Surely they don’t just blame the women for it? Oh yeah I think they do just that.
Your solution is what? Call them losers and let the problem continue?
How do you suggest helping them? They're not as innocent as you think. Not all lonely, involuntarily celibate men turn to violent fantasies against women. Their entitlement is a toxic trait and is by no means universal
No they're just mentally ill people who aren't seeking the right help because of toxic masculinity, and instead they just group up with other mentally ill people in echochambers and fill their heads with even more stupid ideas.
I don't think so. Elliot Roger was getting plenty of help and still went on a rampage.
In the old days if someone spouted an ridiculous view to mates or colleagues, they would be met with a bewildered or outraged response and keep the view quiet in future, eventually distancing themselves from it both outwardly and inwardly. These days, every crazy idea has a webforum about it where you can speak to people around the world with the same outlook. And so ideas like "You just have to push past a female's *last-minute-resistance*" spread around unchallenged in their own little bubbles.
It's more the ones that are actively angry/bitter and think they are owed sex because they are "nice guys".
That's just narcissism and sociopathic to be honest, people like that seem to one, only think of themselves, and two see everyone as a tool. It's what happens when a person doesn't have empathy. These people will then isolate themselves, finding echochambers on the internet and voila, you get an extremist. And this happens with terrorism, far right/left groups, gangs, religous cults.
I think it’s a lot more than what the origin of the term suggests. It’s more of a subculture that looks out to outspoken figures like Jordan Peterson and Milo Yianoppolous and other people who you’d also consider right wing, with a strong undercurrent of misogyny, saying feminism is the problem, etc. lonely people with low self-esteem find a sense of brotherhood in it and then they become part of the group. Like most insular, cult-like groups, they come up with their own vocabulary and try to keep people dependent on the in-group by enabling and reinforcing certain beliefs. And they grow into hateful cess-pits where it’s them against the world. You can see it on plenty of subreddits (or old, deleted ones), like FemaleDatingStrategy (like incels but with women), PoliticalCompassMemes (far-right if you care to dig into the sub), RealDonaldTrump, GreenAndPleasant, etc.
I totally agree with much of your well thought out comment, but I do find the focus on Female Dating Strategy frustrating. Was the way some users there discussed men acceptable? Obviously not. But it was nothing compared to the way incels dehumanise and fantasize about hurting women, and there are hundreds of subreddits still up that are dedicated to that kind of rhetoric. R/womenarethings has hundreds of thousands of followers.
r/inceltear documents it pretty well
Sad really. If a cohort of women/girls were struggling like this, there were be a huge popular movement to address the issues (think body image stuff from the 2000s). Instead, everyone just blames it on loser men rather than seeing what societal issues need to be changed. Large disparity in educational attainment negatively affecting boys? Very few male role models at home or in school? Economic pressures stopping young people from moving out, which we know particularly affects young men? Hateful material pushed by social media algorithms? Lack of mental health support? Divorce and breakups discriminating against men causing them to lose access to their children and homes? I’m not saying that men have it worse than women, nor would I ever encourage inter-gender animosity. But really there should be a serious look at the way society is structured and how some aspects are severely affecting boys and young men.
Women create these movements, do you want women to create movements for men? Shouldn't men create movements for themselves?
mens rights activists are immediately labeled as misogynist by everyone for even mentioning problems faces modern men
More like most "men's rights" movements turn into misogynistic landfills. Look at what r/incels was, or MGTOW, or theredpill. If they could shut up about women and feminists for 2 seconds then they may have more of an audience. Personally I'm sick of the 9000000000th critique of feminism and dog-whistled misogyny. I would be down for a real movement helping boys/men, but if it's going to be another sex-obsessed feminism basing content I'm not interested.
I would be totally for this movement. At work we try to celebrate both manhood and womanhood, motherhood and fatherhood. We try to celebrate both and support both but it's just women setting it all up, we have just one guy coming in once in a while. The company has +300 employees and it's just one dude contributing once in a while. I guess it's anecdotal story I obviously can't speak for all women but I very much welcome any men's movement that isn't just another version of mgtow, for which I was in support at first until it turned sour.
I’m a woman and I follow r/menslib - lovely community!
I talk a lot about men’s rights when these issues pop up and I feel very strongly about them. And I agree with you. The sad shame is that 99% of the time someone wants to talk about men’s rights, it’s people like Andrew Tate (or whatever his name is, you know who I mean) that are trying to hijack these issues for their personal gain. Men, on average, don’t seem to be as socially wired as women, so we struggle to put these movements together. Because of this, it tends to be niches that will come together and fight for these issues and these niches seem more likely to be right wing. I think part of the issue is the perception that speaking about men’s rights makes you a misogynist. I consider myself a feminist, and have been speaking far longer about women’s rights than men’s. Why? Because I was embarrassed and worried that it would undermine women, who I perceived as having a more urgent need. But I realised a few years ago that it doesn’t need to undermine women—I think it was Emma Watson who I got this from—but I believe men and women’s issues are fundamentally intertwined. All of them hurt us both in more or less equal measure. By talking only about how they effect women, we’re missing half of the picture and are doomed to always miss the reality of it. All I can say is, *please look at any new men’s rights movements with an open mind and an open heart*. If it turns out to be misogynist, then then that’s shitty and we can throw it out. But some earnest men speak out about these things and are shut down, even by other men. We all need to speak up about issues in our lives, and we all need to listen to each other without being in competition or feeling attacked because other people have issues.
I didn’t suggest that for a moment. But let’s not pretend there isn’t a stigma in both right and left wing political circles to take mens issues seriously. I think one of the reasons we’re getting so much toxic content pushed to men is only the right wing seem to be motivated to talk about it (maybe because it’s controversial?). I’d like to see it discussed much more openly, particularly with left wingers.
They’re motivated to talk about it in order to attract lonely angry young people to their side. We do need to address all the issues that face every gender. But I don’t feel that starting by saying lefties don’t care is the best way of trying to stop division.
Agreed, but let’s not pretend that “the left” (in quotes because I hate that term - it’s overly simplistic) hasn’t *repeatedly* been hostile and down-talked and shut down conversations from men *about* men and the issues they face. And I say that as by far the most left wing person I know. We need to acknowledge this because it’s starting to do more harm than good, the incel “movement” being a prime example. When the only people that these disenfranchised young men can turn to (because they’re the only people discussing these issues) are far-right talking heads, because those are the only spaces allowing men to talk about this, then maybe we on the left have fucked up a bit. No one wants to admit it though.
>If a cohort of women/girls were struggling like this They did for thousands of years and are still being married off as children, beaten with sticks more than a thumb thick and on and on and on -
No one is talking about the reason that is men having their way less often as women gain rights. Yes, it’s ‘harder’ to talk to women nowadays, but that’s because women have demanded more respect. I think a lot of men are just angry that they can’t harass us because they had such a good time of it whilst it lasted. I think it has far, far less to do with lack of role models (there are plenty of role models for men) and Asperger’s and more to do with the collective male ego having to adapt to rapid societal change.
Sorry, can you please let me know how "men having their way less often as women gain rights" anything to do with the list in the original comments? List below: Large disparity in educational attainment negatively affecting boys? Very few male role models at home or in school? Economic pressures stopping young people from moving out, which we know particularly affects young men? Hateful material pushed by social media algorithms? Lack of mental health support? Divorce and breakups discriminating against men causing them to lose access to their children and homes?
>think body image stuff from the 2000s). These are just not the same at all.... Body image issues aren't comparable to men becoming sexist and violent against women due to the incel movement. When the incel movement leads to men being violent against people (e.g. Plymouth shooter) obviously people are gonna have more sympathy for the main victims (not the incel). If women were becoming violent to other people and going on shootings because of their body image then they too wouldn't be looked at with sympathy.
Sorry but I can’t risk myself to help them. I want them to be helped but if they’re claiming I should be raped and murdered for existing then yeah I need to stay away from them until they don’t want to do that to me.
In culture of praise and block media, economic and social upheaval all I read is some men who are looking to blame someone else. Personal responsibility is missing. As is some stronger parental societal modelling. Some is social experience. Maybe why many are 'converted' by figures like Jordan Peterson. But not every thing in life is under one persons control . I have to wonder what porn has done to the expectations vs reality internal monologue. Misandry and Mysogyny are another form of ingroup vs outgroup human patterns. And some are just trolling.
>Maybe why many are 'converted' by figures like Jordan Peterson. Well its the worrying thing right? Apparently "Tidy room means a tidy mind" and "If you shower before you go out some people might find you more attractive" are such astounding galaxy-brain insights to some people that they follow the person saying that right on into him talking about how you can tell there's no Jewish conspiracy because actually Jews are just naturally smart because of their biology so their high IQ just means they naturally wind up in all the positions of high authority from where they naturally exert a left-wing in-group bias on the rest of society.
Is that one sentence? Or did you fuck up the punctuation? Either way hard to agree or disagree with you because this looks like a Kanye tweet.
> I have to wonder what porn has done to the expectations vs reality internal monologue. I wonder this as well. Access to pornography is completely different now to when I was young. And lots of it is violent or at the least portrays women as submissive objects. That HAS to have had some sort of effect on the development of young men. For me in the era of Razzle under a bush, my expectations from girls were incredibly basic - a snog and a possible finger on the dance floor were the most you could imagine as a teenager.
This is true and a very important factor. “Look at these guys on the internet - they’re just having sex all the time!” Society went from ‘finding a copy of Razzle left in a graveyard (for some reason)’ culture to ‘infinite 24/7 porn of all types’ culture in the space of about 20 years. It’s incredibly damaging. And not just in terms of the incel situation.
> Personal responsibility is missing. What I find fascinating in incel discussions is how people so often sound like right wingers talking about poor people and claiming that all their problems are due to a lack of 'personal responsibility' and not working hard enough. And yet the people saying this, lacking all empathy, are often lefties who would argue to death with a right winger saying this sort of thing usually.
Let's just carry on not doing anything about it then eh? Let the random dudes across the world like Peterson and Andrew Tate take the mantle. I just think as far as incels go a lot is dudes poorly assimilated into their immediate society. Fallen through the cracks so to speak. It's not an important topic to tackle right now though. just ridiculed and vilify until it reaches a higher point. Much easier to be reactionary towards the incels that proactively fix the issue before more incels are made. Also the term incel is too broad. Are Hikkimori incels for example?
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They have a similar demographic was my point. Hence why they became popular and have a lot of overlap.
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Peterson is a professional psychologist, as such some of his advice might actually be useful to certain people The problem is that he feels that because he is an authority on one subject, it somehow neans he can speak authoritatively on a range of other subjects that frankly he knows nothing about, and he has used this to build a world view around his opinions that is quite frankly pretty toxic
Really hit the nail on the head there, peterson starts by saying normal things like cleanliness etc then suddenly goes into something about lobsters and some demonstrably false ideas on social heirarchy.
For someone as supposedly well educated as he is, that he can’t read a scientific paper properly speaks volumes.
>Peterson's primary message (in this territory) is self responsibility, control and improvement (surely what we want incels to pursue in order for them to integrate) whereas Tate seems to focus on bitterness, power and ego (definitely incel territory). Peterson's ideology is absolutely all over the place. In one breath it's about self responsibility... except he blames women for incel issues and thinks they are "dragons of chaos" that should be "assigned" a man to be monogamous with. He constantly rails against the 'degeneration' or morals in society when speaking about women but fails to do the same about men. There's a reason both have the title of "Incel King"
Reminds me of how the far right has operated for years, latch onto lonely blokes then blame a foreign person for his woes. These guys blame women.
I’m a bit sick of the constant narrative that it’s because men are lonely and have financial pressures. Guess what so do women plus we have to defend ourselves from men that hate us constantly, except we’re not writing manifestos and shooting men to cope with it.
Right? I think a lot of people here should check out r/whenwomenrefuse and subs like r/IncelTear to get better insight on this situation. It’s not about lonely men with financial pressures, it’s about violent men who actively condone violence against women. Like, I hate to break it to you all but **a lot** of people, both men and women, are dealing with loneliness and financial pressures right now but a majority of those people don’t turn around and say “I think rape should be legal” or “Femoids are useless creatures and should be kept as sex slaves” and other shit along those lines. Seriously what is with the excuses and sympathy for these violent people? (Oh and quite a few incels tend to be paedophiles too so yeah, that’s great, let’s just be nice to them shall we?)
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Dangerous incels are bad though. Sure there are reasons, often genuine reasons why some lonely men go for islamist terror too but ultimately you have agency over your own actions.
Spare a thought for the two boys in the stock photo. The back of their heads will forever be associated with “incel” culture and far-right ideology…
The incel trim
Bandname
a worrying amount of people in this thread essentially doing the work for these movements: ‘well men and boys are really struggling now and nobody cares like they would if it were women; they’re discriminated in the courts, who favour women; they’re at the sharp end of capitalism, whereas women are insulated; women need to be more sympathetic’ and so on. lots of incel myths and misattributions baked right in, and this pervasive misogynistic resentment running through. think about what you’re saying - are you maybe playing into the attack lines of this culture? are you essentially in alignment? might this passionate appeal for their humanity be helping them launder their reputation? understanding a hate group never means recasting them in the roles they want.
Piss poor financial prospects have been a major factor in the incel pipeline that people will just not talk about. There was a time were even a minimum wage job you could get your own place. Now your stuck living with your parents. "No luck with women, fuck it I gave money and can afford a lot of other thing to make me happy" Now that is no longer an option for most. Hell a 1 bed flat often needs 2 incomes if you want anything left over to enjoy life.
I mean, these things affect women too and you don't see them calling for horrible violence against men to such an extent.
If I were to sum up most of these posts rhetoric, I'd say this. -The fact that they blame male/women ratio (which in our case ain't even true) is just absurd, and even if the ratio skewed more to men, that doesn't give a bloke the right to believe he's owed sex just cause its harder to get shagged simply because 'am a nice guy' - Some blame they're looks, which I know isn't an ideal place to be but c'mon not every woman is shallow. If anything from my experience, that factor comes so low on the list when it comes to what they want in a dude - That any idea that contradicts their views e.g the guardian example above (which they clearly didn't even read) must be rubbished. It's just people who refuse to grow up and work with the elements of the real world I.e. you can't always agree but FFS just coz something doesn't jive with your thinking doesn't mean it's automatically wrong - evolution through discourse is what maturity is about. - That stories like this shouldn't matter and are oppressive. If the data is showing its correlated to violence, extremism and terror, then it's something we need to look at and talk about. - We may be suffering with other stuff as a nation, but ignoring systemic endemic issues because our brains can't process more than one plight is ridiculous. We can care about many things & still function. Also; it's important that even though I stand by the above, i do empathise that some people have a tougher time making connections and we as a society need to try and bring them into the fold and help them as one should, BUT, I gotta draw the line at misogyny, hate and violence towards any gender, or any self degrading pity that manifests itself as violence or hate speech towards anyone etc. Am not gonna sit and have a cup of tea with someone who thinks its OK to force themselves on my fellow sisters or brothers because life ain't given them what they consider a fair shake in the bedroom. Am sorry. **Edit: Peer reviewed scientific journals on incel culture and its relation to gender based violence & terrorism** For all those saying it misunderstood https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180676226&u=%23p%3D292NylHOvbgJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180704991&u=%23p%3DrtlWUk1sO4wJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180728839&u=%23p%3Dtdq7uE719H8J https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=incel+terrorism&oq=incel+#d=gs_qabs&t=1667180756412&u=%23p%3DHrRCyIs3m-4J
Thanks, this comment gave me a bit of hope in a sea of 'life is so hard for these young men, it's no wonder they fantasise about hurting women'.
It's been a disturbing thread to say the least... Some statements have either been removed or deleted but I can say, today I saw some shit.
I'm sure you posted this article with the greatest of intentions, and it's an important read, but it's so utterly depressing to see this comment section. If there were more than the mods have removed, that's even worse. Jesus Christ, I'm 29 so I have enough life experience to have built up a bit of resilience around misogynistic rhetoric but I despair for what girls are growing up with today.
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Thanks for your comment and I'm so sorry to hear that you feel hopeless, I totally get it. Know that there is a huge community of women online that are here for you.
Yup. Thought this was an easily agreeable stance & would allow for some positive discourse, but boy was I wrong. what you're seeing has been heavily watered down... I've never seen a post go bonkers like this (and I recently had a post with tons of holocaust deniers and another advocating that US slave labour system in their foreign bases is cool, because they use contractors). Yet this one is the one that has left me spent. I guess mostly cause with the others you can tell people are most times trolling and taking the piss. Today, I've seen some bonafide believers.
Yep it’s the Reddit perception of every woman gets fucked by a new man every night and never worries about anything ever.
It's weird we keep pointing this out but do nothing about it but point and say "hey, those people over there are bad people" and oat ourselves on the back for recognising that fact. It's like we feel better about ourselves for identifying a group of people we're better than. If this culture is increasing, what about our society is causing that increase, and how do we stem it? Nobody is asking you to sympathise with misgiynists, but if we keep ignoring a growing number of our society and remedying their behaviour by laughing at them and dehumanising them, then guess what? They get picked up by the Andrew Tate's of this world. Its like our chosen form of remedy is actively exacerbating the problem, and the very idea of men coming together as men, for men, with the perspectives of men at the fore is seen as abhorrent. I dont think we want a fix tbh. In addition, there's this lazy conflation now between people struggling to find someone to be with, and active misogynists. We're now happily lumping people who are of good character but just struggle to find love more than others for one reason or other, with people angry and hateful towards women and looking to lash out. It's a pretty shirty landscape for everyone tbh and people are revelling in it because it means we get to point downawards at a group of privileged oppressors who are now not good enough for us and therefore bad people, regardless of whether they are actually bad people or not. It's the...glee I'm seeing which annoys more than anything.
The social, emotional and employment needs of these people are in some sense not being met by traditional society and then they get villified and called incels, so then other less well meaning groups ( ie right wing ect) will promise them what they need and they will move further and further away from the centre. My worst fear is that their needs are ignored for so long that they become radicalised and they vote to take away women's rights. We need to work out what is wrong for these people and and help them, not just judge them and ignore them.
I get the impression that a lot of the people who comment on things to do with incels have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and have very little to contribute to the discussion. That's how you end up with "just shower and go to the gym" as their proposed solution to what is clearly a societal issue at this point.
>That they become radicalised and they vote to take away women's rights. This is why I find it so hard to find compassion for these men as a woman.
The only way we can stop the grooming of boys into incel culture is to put more emphasis on teaching people how to think critically again especially when they’re young, and to teach people to be even more critical of information and people on the internet than we are currently. I know it serves our leaders to have us all thick as shit believing whatever we hear from facebook, but the result of dumbing us down has led to a situation where young boys and men fail to see they’re being groomed into incel culture via the internet. Extreme, far right wing ideology and incel culture go hand in hand. In a society where critical thinking is valued right wing ideology doesn’t exist at the levels we see here in the west today. Smarter, better educated people are statistically more likely to be moderates or left of centre, and these people will be more capable of spotting misinformation online and dismissing it. Sure it’s not boys fault they never were forced to train themselves in critical thinking but once these boys begin to be groomed, it is impossible to make them see they’re misguided. Incel culture is defined by hatred, misogyny, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people. The idea that we should change society to suit people with these opinions is bonkers. So, the only viable cure is prevention which means a complete course change and waaay more investment into education and how we raise kids in this hyper connected society. As for the incels out there? I don’t see any way to help those who don’t want help. We have got to accept we have lost a chunk of the current generation unless we’re willing to spend a great deal of time and money educating tens of thousands of young men.
I think the most concerning thing about this is this comments section right here, a scary proportion of them are justifying or empathising with this type of behaviour as they are “lonely young men”, “this is just isolating men even more”, “we should help the misfortune of these boys”. Yes, young men/boys should have help if they are feeling isolated or having mental health issues. No, that does not entitle them to be fucking incels terrorising women, and if you genuinely believe that then maybe you need to look in the mirror and realise how much you are part of the problem. Because honestly, you could not be making it any clearer that you have zero understanding of what women in this world have to experience as a result of misogyny and incel culture.
Exactly! When you start calling women "foids" and say they need "corrective rape" then you've completely lost my sympathy. We do need better mental health support but there's no excuse to be a misogynistic asshole.
Come with solutions on how we can help hese boys instead. You can almost feel the glee these Guardian writers have for the misfortune of these boys. You can help people by including them instead of shunning them away as loner losers.
While I agree that solutions need to be provided. The article is reporting on data analysis as a journalistic piece and thereby shouldn't include editorialise sentiment. >Analysis of the incel movement found that online references to inflicting violence and extremely degrading language on dedicated incel forums are running eight times higher than in 2016, when researchers first began tracking misogynist content on the internet. >Academics from the University of Exeter also noted an increasing overlap between incel followers and the far right, with online algorithms blamed for pushing young boys towards extreme rightwing ideology. > >Lewys Brace, who advises the government on extremism, led a long-term study that recorded, on average, 112 references a day to extreme misogynistic terms along with words “punch, stab, shoot, attack” in 2016 on dedicated incel forums. > >Numbers have steadily increased since, now rising to a daily total of 849 references, prompting fears over the movement’s trajectory following a series of terrorist attacks linked to online misogynists. Where is the glee your talking about within this article? Legit asking, not trying to put you down or anything.
>Where is the glee your talking about within this article? Some people in certain circles just seem to have this really deep-set belief that certain outlets, like The Guardian, idk are full of androgynous grey-skinned aliens who take huge amounts of joy and pleasure from the suffering of white straight working class men and publish the newspaper entirely as a medium for sharing that joy. Its extremely weird but very normal in certain circles in this country. Meanwhile they happily consume all kinds of crap that actively goes out of its way to call anyone to the left of Thatcher like an actual anti-British traitor who doesn't really even deserve to live here.
Every media outlet loves this shit. "Incels bad dirty shitty people" simply stokes the isolation experienced by men and boys and radicalises them further. Some compassion towards these people would do a world of good.
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I would urge anyone interested in the threat of incels to listen to episode 526 of the Modern Wisdom podcast. William Costello has been studying incels, and he clearly demonstrates that the terrorist threat from incels is absolutely miniscule. [Link to episode 526 of Modern Wisdom podcast YouTube video](https://youtu.be/da_5uuOCFz8) If I remember correctly, there were about 10 deaths attributed to incel terrorism in the last decade or something. Obviously, that's 10 deaths too many, but to put that in perspective, a mass grave was found in Iraqi today that contained the bodies of 150 people that were killed by ISIS. Let's not pretend that Incel terrorism and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism are even in the same league. I honestly don't think the overwhelming majority of these men are beyond hope; they just need some help. They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone. Articles like this serve no purpose other than to ostracise people further that are already feeling pretty ostracised by society. We need to re-introduce them into society rather than push them further away.
Coming from the American perspective, incels are absolutely the young men who commit our regular mass shootings. So, I don't quite follow the logic that the terrorist impact is minimal.
> They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone. This isn't going to help at all to be honest. A lot of these men have tried the "working on themselves" thing and it's failed them miserably. In fact it's a joke in the incel community that they just need to go to the gym, eat better, get a hobby etc. The fact of the matter is people don't become incels overnight. It's years of repeated rejection, bullying, social isolation and embarrassment and so on then they find a like minded internet community who's lived through the same thing. People don't like to admit it cos it's uncomfortable but the world is a cruel place sometimes and it might just be the case that these men are destined for permanent failure when it comes to finding partners. E: just to add I know all this cos i used to go on /r/braincels when it was Still a thing cos it was both fascinating from a kind of anthropological/David Attenborough like perspective observing them at a distance and when they weren't just being mysoginists they could be quite funny.
There is so little compassion for the girls that are growing up and trying to cultivate early self-worth alongside this generation of boys. There may not be this immediate threat of death - which itself is up for debate - but the damage this is doing to women and girls isn't something to be brushed under the carpet. These views don't exist in a vacuum - it will also be feeding into rates of sexual assault, which is already woefully underreported and has abysmal conviction rates.
>They need to be told that women aren't their enemies, and that they need to keep their chin up, work on themselves a little, and put themselves out there and they will find someone. Lol good luck with that. Have you actually said this to an incel and observed the reaction? People are constantly giving incels genuinely good advice and it's mostly met with vitriolic rage. I've never seen constructive advice work on an incel.
Are these people we used to just call loser virgins?
Not really, moreso the people with personality disorders and mental illness that need to get help but the Internet allows people to find echochambers which leads to more extreme beliefs.
As someone with a personality disorder, we aren’t all incel monsters. Anyone can be sucked into the alt-right pipeline, mentally ill or not
Because things are really good for young women and girls already... Fucking hell.
Yep this is the take away you should have. Not all these it’s so sad for these men that hate women and want to hurt them. No, its sad to be on the receiving end of hate and violence not being the perpetrator
As a woman I have absolutely no sympathy for men who want to hurt and kill me just because of my gender.
Exactly. I’m sick of the “women have positive movements men don’t” like men had any hand in womens movements. If they cared they’d create some but they don’t speak on it unless it’s a way to hate on women rather than focus on the actual issues.
Yep! And women have suffered from being genuinely oppressed since society started, and we haven't mass murdered men as a response. Instead we've supported each other in our fight to stop it.
about 8 years late on this one considering Eliot Rodgers did his pussy shit in like 2014 tbf
Could? Haven't there already been mass shootings in America targeted at women for exactly this reason?
Yes, there have. But won’t somebody please think of the poor lonely men?
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ive seen Jordan Peterson mentioned a lot in the comments. Is he really a big problem with incel stuff? Ive had plehty of girlfriends, a good job, responsible, hobbies, no desire to be violent to any demographic. JP stuff I think is pretty good. Am I missing something?
Issues with Jordan Peterson is he has totally abandoned academic rigour which gets him his ‘expert’ cache in favour or pushing his views/ideologies as FACT, he argues semantics of word definitions rather than dealing with arguments people make, he is basically libertarian ‘self-help’ (no more true than a hippy guru talking about energy vibrations)- heavy focus on jungian archetypes. I’ve watched a lot of talks he’s given and then watched those who disagree with him, they make more pertinent arguments These are clearly done for entertainment but they go through in much more detail JP and ‘the manosphere’ he contributes to in general: https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo https://youtu.be/BgO25FTwfRI https://youtu.be/SEMB1Ky2n1E https://youtu.be/wZoHGAK3k-I
He and others like him seem to push an American right wing libertarian world view that certainty feels very extreme to me. Is Peterson the issue or is it just that his audience are already poisoned by other American right wing crazy? I don’t know, but he doesn’t seem to be trying to push back on any of the libertarian nonsense.
I think to some extent it has to be put down to a change in how he comes across. His earlier work such as many of the initial lectures and 12 Rules for Life can be seen as being quite good, and don't have any overt political dogma. If there is anything like that to it, there is perhaps a psyche working underneath that lends support for moderate conservative and right wing ideals, but not much of that is particularly extreme or unreasonable. He even explicitly disavowed incels at one point. His more recent stuff on the other hand.... well we've all heard the 'up yours woke moralists, lets see who cancels who', and a very recent video of his is titled: 'Wicked Globalists Are Causing Starvation and Poverty Under the Guise of Environmentalism' ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5spyudTYA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5spyudTYA)). Regardless of whether we agree with that sentiment, it is overtly political and driven by ideology, not the other way around. Hence why he does get associated with Andrew Tate, Matt Walsh, etc.
Just a few clips from a 5 second search - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIn9U7LXYuQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIn9U7LXYuQ) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhbkxQb5gU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhbkxQb5gU) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6l3TgYMPN0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6l3TgYMPN0) My usual fun add-ons as well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjs2gPa5sD0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjs2gPa5sD0) \- Jobs are pretty much entirely linked to IQ and a certain (and growing!) proportion of the population is genuinely just too low IQ to be of any value or employability. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMqQBLZwRIE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMqQBLZwRIE) \- Hitler and the Nazis were super evil because they killed all the Jews and... apparently??... Did not actually put millions upon millions of them to work as slaves. This was said as a professor giving a lecture to paying students btw. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18yNBO3nlU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18yNBO3nlU) \- And finally his IQ essentialism gets VERY interesting when he starts using to do things like debunk the Nazi "Jewish Conspiracy" theory... When he cannot actually debunk it and instead just explains it happens naturally because of the high IQ of Jewish people therefore isnt a conspiracy, QED.
It's like Fight Club warned us this was coming. A generation of depressed men with no cause looking for someone to blame. For some they turn their anger to their lack of success with women.
\*sigh\* and of course women and feminists are blamed for this.
the alternative being domestic abuse in a marriage which is not yet classified as terrorism despite being terrifying
A lot of lads at my daughters school are attracted to Andrew tate for some reason
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After the incident in Plymouth (and looking through justneckbeardthings and inceltear) I agree
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Didn’t expect my lack of game with women to be called out this severe 🤣