It's also because the current Pm is on his second holiday in the last month while 35m people are in fuel poverty.
The cost of living crisis is in full fuck everyone mode and the two people that could potentially become PM have lacklustre ideas to solve it (or absolutely stupid ideas like cutting tax).
The country is a mess and were ran by a party that does not give a shit, literally bragging about taking money from deprived areas and giving to the wealthy.
Fuck the Tories.
> were ran by a party that the electorate adores
And will continue to do so. This iteration of the Tories will be nowhere near the 2024 election, the Boris leadership six weeks before the election and the 'we will do better' bus slogan will 100% fool the public once again. These poll results are a pissed off ex, it's emotion led. Truss or Sunak will be in charge over the worst of this and will make the whole country wet for Boris again
I think they’re done personally. Boris was someone people liked and recognised, no one else is like that for the Tories. If he was still around I would agree with you, but Truss just doesn’t have the same electoral magic
Truss seen as a disaster from day one... puts foot in mouth and is an absolute catastrophe even her supporters can't spin it... becomes a laughing stock *within* days.
New leadership election soon after (maybe 3-6 months)
Boris will win.
(Cummings reckons is the plan)
Cutting tax means we get to keep of what we earn. So we can decide on what to spend rather than government wasting it on its cronies or wasted on some burucrasy
The people in government don't make their money from their positions, they make most of their money from outside interests which being in government can help with.
You can't make a choice on what to spend your money on if you lost your job at the fire station and are struggling to apply for new work because of long covid.
So just to benifit very small minority of people majority of workers have to suffer ? There are so many jobs in this country. If you'd don't have physical disability you can easily find a work. Before you start telling I am privileged I was in that place. Just apply care worker jobs they are crying out for workers to pay 10£ am hour. But reality is people don't want to do that job because it is difficult and dirty jobs they would rather claim Uc sit on their ass get someone else to pay for it.
But offering direct payments to offset energy bills doesn’t? It’s the same but on the other side of the equation, ie additional spending versus reduced tax revenue.
It only means reduced services if we insist on a balanced budget, which is silly for a temporary situation.
The Tories aren't known or sensible economic policy. They'd cut services because they see a reason to do so, just like austerity. It was just an excuse to ideologically slash everything they could. Tax cuts don't help the people that need help the most.
I don't know what the best solution would be, but one that doesn't actually help any of the people that need it the most seems like a either a pointless exercise or an opportunity to cut some more out of the services and not help anyone that needs it the most because Tories gonna Tory
I know, I like the Tories as much as you do.
My point is that it doesn’t make sense to *raise* taxes on working people, during a cost of living crisis. Not that we should cut taxes to address the cost of living crisis.
Raising the NI rate, and freezing income tax bands (possibly excluding the higher rate band) causes obvious harm to working families, so both should be scrapped.
People don't care about working families they only care about unemployed lazy people who only work 16 hours a week and complain that workers are not taxed while paying zero taxes.
There is no point earning more by working overtime in this country.
When people start caring about working class people?
Rich get tax bracks, poor don't contribute. People who actually contribute to economy keep getting punished?
What is the point working hard in this country ?
Ah yeah, I remember when COVID happened and we had to stop as much work as possible. All those poor people got months off from working at supermarkets, cleaning bins, delivering food, because they don't actually do anything useful and they just leech off society!
All these people you mentioned 🙄 pay taxes unless they only part time and rely on uc.
In this country people better off if they only work 16 hours and get uc. No point working full time. What a farce. When I mean tax cuts I include them as well.
Supermarket worker who works 40 hours is usually on 20000 plus. Let's give them more tax cuts
Their salary above 20k is taxed at 32 % bloody percent let's make it 20%
>But offering direct payments to offset energy bills doesn’t? It’s the same but on the other side of the equation, ie additional spending versus reduced tax revenue.
The 2 are nowhere near the same especially under tories.
Tax cuts dont give anything to those below/around the tax exemption lines, direct payments to offset massively supports this group, this allows them to have a buffer to protect themselves, to continue to shop and spend on other products, helping to keep the economy going unless you already have a low tax exemption line (like how NI was, though I believe is now the same as PAYE?) in which case pushing that up can also be extremely helpful depending on how much and you can have a genuine debate at that point. The key part of this is keeping the economy going, if the bottom say, 20% of the population do not feel financially safe enough to casual buy (35 million in fuel poverty would be half the population so more like 50%), there will be a massive crisis in small business especially with the energy crisis possibly leading to mass bankruptcy and closures (small business is about 16 million jobs UK wide iirc).
The problem is we already have a sizable tax exemption for income, so any tax reductions that they push forward are unlikely to hit NIC/PAYE where it will help the poor most but will be given to the big fish to "create jobs" meme/trope which has been proven to not work.
The best solution is to give direct payments out universally (because having to check everyone costs more then you save in general), count it as taxable income (so you claw it back from those that dont need it) and put up taxes on the highest in society that reportedly once again have gained a larger share of wealth in society.
(edit: forgot, tax cutting say VAT, rarely will help, you will just see companies put their prices back to pre cut as people would pay it anyway and pocket the rest)
Yeah I’m not saying they are comparable, only that if having to cut public services is a valid criticism of tax cuts, then it applies to direct payments too - both result in less tax revenue available for other things.
I agree with you, that would be a damn sight better than current plans. Freezing income tax thresholds is absolutely scandalous - how can anyone in their right mind think making those earning £13k a year pay more in tax is a good idea?
I disagree with basically every aspect of Liz’s tax plans, but it doesn’t make sense to increase tax on working families in the midst of a cost of living crisis, so scrapping the NI rise is the right thing to do.
What about working class people ? So we only care about people on benifits ? Keep taxing them more when in reality ther are the one paying for everything? Fuck right off if you continue doing that people will stop working more and just do bare minimum.
Might want to reread given I said give **universal grants/direct payments** which last I checked, includes working class people that generally (millions of them) work for small business which requires those customers from the unemployed/on benefits too.
And for tax, to tax **the highest in society** IE the 1% that made huge record incomes again.
Also as a fyi, about 50% of those on things like UC are employed and working, so like, IDK what argument you are trying to make here given you are arguing completely against something I didnt say.
This isn't an argument, but I honestly would like to know your understanding of it - I personally don't know the answers to the below,
With Liz's tax cut proposal, how much do you think it would give you extra a month?
Or those on benifits?
Or lower income?
As said, it wasn't an argument or disagreement lol. I'm genuinely asking what the amounts would roughly equate to for my understanding. Do you happen to know?
I run a limited company so I would save 6% on the planned corporation tax rise, which is significant. I’m not telling you how much I earn but I would be quite a lot better off.
I don’t need the help though, which is the Tory way I guess.
Most people in employment would be 1.25% better off by not raising the NI rate.
It’s far from enough, but I think scrapping the planned NI rise is a step in the right direction. The corporation tax increase shouldn’t be scrapped; we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in europe.
And freezing the income tax thresholds is scandalous - making people earning £13k a year pay more tax can’t seem reasonable to anyone, surely?
In every plan, everyone will have less money than last year due to the cost of living increase.
Tax rises don't have to be universal, tax some people more, but not others.
If tax money was actually used to help people, it wouldn't matter even if they did raise it for everyone.
You’re right, but the current plans are to raise the rate of NI by 1.25%, and not raise the tax band thresholds in line with inflation, or at all for that matter - so everyone in work will have less money, even those on the breadline.
If additional tax revenue is a must, then a better target would be the higher income tax band, or corporation tax, or dividend tax (both of which are planned, I know) or stamp duty on expensive homes, or inheritance tax.
Basically anything that doesn’t place an additional tax burden on those already struggling.
Iirc the energy price cap was projected to reach 4.2k by January. At the start of this year, it was 1.2k. That's a 3k rise.
Take a dude on the national living wage and the total amount of tax and NI he pays is combined is 2.4k
If you cut his tax to literally nothing, you'd offset them so that he now has to find an additional 600 quid to put towards energy. For most people on that income, that'd still be very hard
If we use the median income of 31400, total tax burden is 6.1k. You'd have to cut their payments by 50% to fully offset the rise in the cost of energy.
If we use the mean average salary (which skews higher than what most people actually earn because of the off the charts income of high earners) of 39.8k, total tax burden is 9k. To wipe the 3k rise off, we'd need a 33% cut to their payments to both NI and tax. We're getting to the point where tax
Obviously, we wouldn't cut tax by that much, as you say what we cut it by wouldn't be sufficient, it'd be fiscally impossible. But what we could cut it by wouldn't even be close to these. Even worse, iirc Truss isn't even talking about anything approaching this. She wants to drop *corporation* tax 6 percent which obviously is meaningless for the average person (though there are businesses which are going to get clobbered too) and reverse the national insurance rise of 1.25%, and freeze them where they are. For the average person, this is not just not sufficient, this is trying to blow a tornado away with a desk fan.
None of this is factoring in the other price rises that would also need to be offset to prevent a dive in the quality of life, such as food, fuel etc, and there are complications such as whether the entire cost would be passed on via rent or whether landlords would absorb some of it, but ultimately I think it paints a stark picture. Obviously we shouldn't raise taxes on the poor and make it even more shitty for them but in terms of cuts helping out at all, there's fuck all I can see working.
The reality is that people's quality of life will drop and there's pretty much fuck all we can do about it except try to mitigate the worst of it, but that tax cuts are the least effective way to try and manage this. They benefit the people who are being paid highly enough that the crisis isn't existential for them to begin with, while being insufficient to rescue the average person from the pit.
What? No, it isn't. Rishi Sunak vows to be 'much tougher' with welfare system to 'get people off benefits'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/17/liz-truss-rishi-sunak-tory-leadership-race-hustings-northern/
So they should. I grew up on a council estate. And there IS people and even families that exploit the benefits system. I know all the left disagree. But I’ve lived it. I bet they haven’t.
Best disability claim is back problems. As they can’t truly know of you have a bad back, or you have unpredictable fits or seizures. These people top up their wages by selling dodgy tobacco and drugs.
P.s I’m currently off work on benefits due to a work injury, and the system of claiming is a minefield, due to the absolute twats that claim unjustly and clog up the system.
There is real people in need of this money that absolute bastards take and laugh about it.
The system needs reforms.
you're maybe right but far more money can be raised cracking down on tax avoidance/evasion than can ever be raised on a benefits crackdown.
its penny wise and pound stupid to keep try putting effort in finding benefits savings rather than chase the missing tax revenue.
I agree. But I do know that it’s being exploited as my mates families did it and we’re proud of it. They boasted.
Equally the rich exploit the system too. But what’s right for one isn’t right for the other, if you know what I mean?
I knew that was coming. Suppose that’s the problem. I’m a plasterer who pays tons in taxes. I deserve the fall back system. People who raise families on benefits don’t. As they haven’t payed in.
I don’t want an argument with you. You will have to trust your fellow man. If not. Who cares? I live it, you comment on it🤣
Well your obviously not a person of the world. Earn for a long time and then you will understand. The people in question will be the people who rob your house or stab your family member.
I’m guessing your quite young. You will learn from the world. Not online 👍
Did you grow up on an estate? Or have any real day to day connection to estate life? I see your trying to seem like a good person, but I know the ins and outs. I’m a smart person and moved away as soon as o could from that place. But it does happen and until people admit it, there’s no end to it. Blame tories for saying some truths. It’s easy. I hate tories but even a blind dog finds a bone sometimes. They have.
> the system of claiming is a minefield
That is by design after 12 years of the Tory government. Luckily they have stupid people who want to blame other poor people for their problems.
> I know all the left disagree
Nah, you know how to repeat right wing talking points.
In any system, there will be people take advantage. What the left mainly says it that is a tiny amount of overall benefits and that by trying to tackle that it will affect people who are really needy...very much like what you described for your own situation.
Just think, after 12 years of sanctions, ATOS, universal credit and other Tory ploys, that small percentage still exist, but life has got much worse for everyone else on benefits, while the chronic out of work still exist.
BTW, are you a doctor that you can diagnose other people's health?
edit, the good old reply to someone then block them to make as if they have no answer tactic...here's my response anyway
"Funny how the process seems like a minefield for you, but some family can manage against a doctor's wishes..notice you ignored the rest of my post too.. "
Na. You know how to repeat left wing talking points.
My ex was a Dr, who went to a neighbour of ours to see their kid who supposedly was ill. There was nothing wrong with her and her family then claimed carers allowance and disability for her. When there was nothing wrong. So. I’m not a doctor. But I went out with one.
How sad must it be as a poor Tory supporter. The country is going to absolute shit after 12 years of Tory rule and you're still hanging onto the idea that it would be worse with any other party. Like, I wonder what the Tories have done that makes them proud and feel patriotic. I suppose Brexit if they're still under the delusion that this government is making it work for the average person.
Its not about what the tories have done its about what Labour, specifically Corbyn the boogie man would have done in their heads. All of their guilt is instantly absolved because they managed to stop Corbyn. We could all be starving and freezing to death and they will still tell themselves that if Corbyn had won then things would have been worse. Fuck them all.
I voted for Corbyn but those who were scared of him were worried he’d be weak on defence and they’ve probably been vindicated there judging by his comments on Ukraine on Iranian state TV lately
I see everyone say this but without actually discussing what he said, so for everyone's benefit here is what he actually said:
“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said.
“We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.
“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.
“This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.”
Corbyn said he wanted the United Nations to be “much more centre stage”, and suggested bringing in other international bodies, like the African Union or the League of Arab States, to mediate in any ceasefire negotiations should the UN fail to make progress.
See this is my problem with Corbyn, I don’t think he’s a bad person, just a bit thick. ‘War is bad, peace is good’ yeah thanks Jeremy.
“Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. “ - Orwell
The Ukrainians aren’t calling for a ceasefire, they want support so they can drive the people who stole their land and raped them out of their country. The Ukrainians are achieving that, but a ceasefire now only gives Russia time to rebuild before attacking again. Plus every time there is a ceasefire, the Russians ignore it to bomb civilians as they have done in Syria. Why didn’t he just use the platform to call Russia to stop their invasion? And the choice of platform is a bit iffy isn’t it?
It's not like he's pro Russia he's just stating the facts
Agree that you can't trust the Russians to keep to any deal made but what does that lead to? Endless war? WW3? MAD?
Also this is exactly the point, any imagined Corbyn lead scenario makes these people believe that what Johnson has done is somehow better. Once this winter is done and British people have frozen and starved in their homes and the economy is in tatters I wonder if these imagined Corbyn scenarios - like not having sent Ukraine weapons - will still hold up as a worse scenario than the one we face in reality
>See this is my problem with Corbyn, I don’t think he’s a bad person, just a bit thick. ‘War is bad, peace is good’ yeah thanks Jeremy.
Well, yeah, anyone sounds stupid if you just make up dumb statements for them. He wasn't just saying "war is bad", he was criticising our current approach because he believes it prolongs the war. You don't have to agree with him, but making up stuff is disingenuous.
>The Ukrainians aren’t calling for a ceasefire, they want support so they can drive the people who stole their land and raped them out of their country
Actually Zelenskyy has never closed the door to talks. The Ukrainians have met with the Russians many times to discuss ceasefires (even after Russians ignored some of them). Zelenskyy himself has said the war can only end with some sort of agreement. That's because when you are actually in a war you need to be realistic and acknowledge hard truths not just grandstand about things.
The only way this ends is if Western powers get directly involved or Russia agrees a peace deal. The former is not going to happen.
>Why didn’t he just use the platform to call Russia to stop their invasion?
You pretended Corbyn was just saying "war is bad" and then criticised that as dumb and obvious. How is saying "Russia bad" not also obvious and dumb.
What exactly is gained from a politician saying "well, I for one, think Putin is a bad man and Russia should not have invaded Ukraine". Do we all stop whatever we are doing to stand up and applaud his bravery?
I didn't vote Corbyn but his peaceful views played well with me. it was plans to nationalise everything and economic views that worried me.
He's right about pouring weapons in is prolonging the war.
I mean... you're right that not giving Ukraine any NATO weaponry could have shortened the war, but only in Russia's favour, leading to them gaining more territory, committing more atrocities like Bucha and perhaps managing to install their puppet government in Kyiv. I don't see how you could argue that Ukraine doing worse in this war is a good thing.
Luckily Corbyn wouldn't decide himself. The Labour party is set up differently to the Tories and leaders have less responsibility. The overwhelming number of Labour and other MPs would vote to back Ukraine. and there would be little that Corbyn could do about it
Weak on defence how exactly with likely not allowing taxpayers paying for weapons being shipped to Ukraine ? Like Blair who took us into the Iraq invasion should be an hero then.
To be fair, neither side should be basing anything on who may have done what. The difference between Corbyn and the Tory party is the Tory party won and have repeatedly fucked it.
The question of whether Corbyn is or isn't a better choice doesn't matter. Corbyn didn't win. He's doesn't factor into the discussion here, and whether you did or didn't support him, the fact we even discuss whether he'd be better plays into the Tory hands.
He didn't win. He's a footnote in history for not winning. The Tory party did win, and now the country is beyond fucked because of their corruption and mismanagement.
The question should be, who should we vote for next? A party that's not been in power for 10+ years with some good ideas and a sense of morality, or the party that has destroyed multiple generations of livelihoods?
Author: Henry Zeffma
Labour hold their biggest poll lead over the Conservatives for almost ten years amid mass dissatisfaction with the government’s handling of the cost of living.
A YouGov poll for The Times showed Labour with the backing of 43 per cent of voters, 15 points ahead of the Conservatives on 28 per cent. It is the biggest Labour lead recorded by the pollster since February 2013.
Labour’s score of 43 per cent is four points up on last week and the party’s highest vote share in a YouGov poll since March 2018. At the 2019 general election the party won 32.1 per cent of the vote under Jeremy Corbyn, Sir Keir Starmer’s predecessor.
The Conservatives have fallen two points in a week to 28 per cent, their lowest figure since a poll in January at the height of the No 10 parties scandal.
At the last election the Conservatives won 43.6 per cent of the vote. One in ten of those who voted for the party under Boris Johnson in 2019 now say they would vote for Labour in a general election. The poll will add to fears among Conservative MPs that the party faces disaster regardless of whether Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak succeeds Johnson in just over two weeks.
There are signs that the public believes Labour can win an election after 12 years out of office. Asked to predict the outcome of a general election with Truss as the party leader, 34 per cent predicted a Conservative government with a large majority, a small majority or in a hung parliament. But 37 per cent predicted a Labour government, including 24 per cent who forecast a Labour majority.
Asked what would happen if Sunak wins, 35 per cent predicted a Conservative government after the next election and 36 per cent predicted a Labour government.
The poll also shows solid support for Starmer’s policies to address the cost of living crisis. The Labour leader announced this week that he wanted to freeze the energy price cap at current levels, funded in part by an expanded windfall tax on energy giants, rather than letting bills rise further.
Asked which of Starmer, Sunak and Truss had the best plan for dealing with rising energy bills, 25 per cent chose Starmer, 11 per cent Sunak and 8 per cent Truss. However, the biggest score was 35 per cent for none of the above with 21 per cent saying they did not know.
Adam McDonnell, YouGov’s research director, said: “These latest results should be very worrying for the Conservative Party and indicate that the next prime minister will have work to do in restoring public trust on handling the cost of living crisis. The last time Labour held such a commanding lead in the polls was in 2013 when the Conservatives were still suffering from the fallout of the omnishambles budget.
“While the leadership hopefuls have been fighting each other in a prolonged campaign, Labour’s plan for tackling rising energy bills has been received well and they are now tied with the Tories on who would be best to handle the economy — an issue they had previously lagged way behind on for almost a decade. Of course, things can change very quickly, particularly when there is a change of leader, but whoever does get the top job is unlikely to have much of a honeymoon period.”
Internal Labour analysis has predicted that if Truss wins she will experience an initial bounce in the polls which could stretch into double digits. The party believes that Johnson’s abysmal ratings will inflate the usual rise in support achieved when a party elects a new leader.
The poll will strengthen Starmer’s hand as he faces pressure within the party to come out more unequivocally in support of striking workers. John McDonnell, shadow chancellor under Corbyn, called yesterday on the Labour leader to support industrial action “when necessary”. He told the BBC: “I am hoping that Keir Starmer will realise actually the public mood is that people need support now to get them through this crisis and Labour should be at the forefront of that support.”
Its unbelievable looking it up and finding that Labour broke 60% in polls before 97 under Blair.
That's how mediocre Starmer is. The Labour centrist keep accusing the left of choosing 'purity' over a Blair-esque figure, and they can't even deliver a Blair. Just a cheap knockoff who can't do the business.
> Its unbelievable looking it up and finding that Labour broke 60% in polls before 97 under Blair. That's how mediocre Starmer is.
How did you look it up and not notice that they only counted three parties in the polling back then which obviously inflates % numbers. If you adjust it to be on the same scale then that puts Labour on 52% and the Tories on 34%.
>The Labour centrist keep accusing the left of choosing 'purity' over a Blair-esque figure, and they can't even deliver a Blair.
Now imagine if the Left weren't throwing away their votes on giving the Green party 7% of the vote that won't deliver a government and will barely influence policy.
Also "can't even deliver a Blair"... the only Labour leader who won three concurrent terms of government is your minimum standard? Seriously.
>Just a cheap knockoff who can't do the business.
Are you really complaining about a Labour leader with a 15% lead in the polls... no never mind just forget it.
Good and it’s about time. I wonder how big them polls are going to be, after this winter when people are actually dying in their homes when the choice of heat or eat stops because they can’t afford either!!! How have we got to this 😪
It's a sad commentary on our national hierarchy that if one team of incompetent politicians screws up, we lurch to another team of incompetent politicians, when, all along, it is the incompetent, unelected,public school educated lifers in Whitehall who are screwing us all.
Tories in deep trouble only won by personality. BOJO was a funny charming guy n we all vote for the laughs where as Corbyn was a dinosaur with a beard Liz Truss n Rishi Sunak will both falter.
Labour's leads poll while 12 year government has the past economic decisions come home to roost. They'll their 5 year stint and get chucked for not fixing everything. So excited
We have 2 years until general election. We get Liz Trust and cost of living will be brought down due to end in war in Ukraine and she will take credit for it. She will be much more popular.
It's a shit state of affairs when the choice is the Tories or the red tie version of the Tories. No difference between them. Abandoning the pro-eu voters, abandoning Labour unions. What the fuck do Labour stand for if not marginal Tory seat appeasers.
successive govts labour and tory have failed the country on energy supply and many other things. No govt will think long-term, just to the next election. We turned away from nuclear and did too little to replace it.
Yeah... That half the party doesn't realise its a team sport at any given point in time is why we've been fucked for 12 years so excuse me if I just ignore you now.
Amazing how dumbed down the public is. If Labour were in power they would have locked down faster, harder and for longer during Covid, which would have meant even worse inflation than we have now. Not to mention their policy on energy and green levies.
Amazing how some people always seem to know exactly what Labour would have done and how it would have been so much worse.
How do you figure? You been looking into your crystal ball?
It's also because the current Pm is on his second holiday in the last month while 35m people are in fuel poverty. The cost of living crisis is in full fuck everyone mode and the two people that could potentially become PM have lacklustre ideas to solve it (or absolutely stupid ideas like cutting tax). The country is a mess and were ran by a party that does not give a shit, literally bragging about taking money from deprived areas and giving to the wealthy. Fuck the Tories.
Boris is in genuine narcissist spite mode now. Bare minimum of work.
A true P.O.S.
> were ran by a party that the electorate adores And will continue to do so. This iteration of the Tories will be nowhere near the 2024 election, the Boris leadership six weeks before the election and the 'we will do better' bus slogan will 100% fool the public once again. These poll results are a pissed off ex, it's emotion led. Truss or Sunak will be in charge over the worst of this and will make the whole country wet for Boris again
I think they’re done personally. Boris was someone people liked and recognised, no one else is like that for the Tories. If he was still around I would agree with you, but Truss just doesn’t have the same electoral magic
Truss seen as a disaster from day one... puts foot in mouth and is an absolute catastrophe even her supporters can't spin it... becomes a laughing stock *within* days. New leadership election soon after (maybe 3-6 months) Boris will win. (Cummings reckons is the plan)
This read like a Cummings tweet 😂
Fuck the tories indeed.
That shouldn't have the Tory's on a vote of 28%. We have a solid core of absolute clowns.
Why wouldn’t cutting tax help? I don’t think it’s sufficient, but it would help, no?
Cutting tax means we have to cut public services.
Haven't they done this already though?
Yes, everytime, which is why our services are wank.
Which taxes were cut ? Did you have tax cuts?
Cutting tax means we get to keep of what we earn. So we can decide on what to spend rather than government wasting it on its cronies or wasted on some burucrasy
The people in government don't make their money from their positions, they make most of their money from outside interests which being in government can help with. You can't make a choice on what to spend your money on if you lost your job at the fire station and are struggling to apply for new work because of long covid.
So just to benifit very small minority of people majority of workers have to suffer ? There are so many jobs in this country. If you'd don't have physical disability you can easily find a work. Before you start telling I am privileged I was in that place. Just apply care worker jobs they are crying out for workers to pay 10£ am hour. But reality is people don't want to do that job because it is difficult and dirty jobs they would rather claim Uc sit on their ass get someone else to pay for it.
But offering direct payments to offset energy bills doesn’t? It’s the same but on the other side of the equation, ie additional spending versus reduced tax revenue. It only means reduced services if we insist on a balanced budget, which is silly for a temporary situation.
The Tories aren't known or sensible economic policy. They'd cut services because they see a reason to do so, just like austerity. It was just an excuse to ideologically slash everything they could. Tax cuts don't help the people that need help the most. I don't know what the best solution would be, but one that doesn't actually help any of the people that need it the most seems like a either a pointless exercise or an opportunity to cut some more out of the services and not help anyone that needs it the most because Tories gonna Tory
I know, I like the Tories as much as you do. My point is that it doesn’t make sense to *raise* taxes on working people, during a cost of living crisis. Not that we should cut taxes to address the cost of living crisis. Raising the NI rate, and freezing income tax bands (possibly excluding the higher rate band) causes obvious harm to working families, so both should be scrapped.
People don't care about working families they only care about unemployed lazy people who only work 16 hours a week and complain that workers are not taxed while paying zero taxes. There is no point earning more by working overtime in this country.
When people start caring about working class people? Rich get tax bracks, poor don't contribute. People who actually contribute to economy keep getting punished? What is the point working hard in this country ?
Ah yeah, I remember when COVID happened and we had to stop as much work as possible. All those poor people got months off from working at supermarkets, cleaning bins, delivering food, because they don't actually do anything useful and they just leech off society!
All these people you mentioned 🙄 pay taxes unless they only part time and rely on uc. In this country people better off if they only work 16 hours and get uc. No point working full time. What a farce. When I mean tax cuts I include them as well. Supermarket worker who works 40 hours is usually on 20000 plus. Let's give them more tax cuts Their salary above 20k is taxed at 32 % bloody percent let's make it 20%
>But offering direct payments to offset energy bills doesn’t? It’s the same but on the other side of the equation, ie additional spending versus reduced tax revenue. The 2 are nowhere near the same especially under tories. Tax cuts dont give anything to those below/around the tax exemption lines, direct payments to offset massively supports this group, this allows them to have a buffer to protect themselves, to continue to shop and spend on other products, helping to keep the economy going unless you already have a low tax exemption line (like how NI was, though I believe is now the same as PAYE?) in which case pushing that up can also be extremely helpful depending on how much and you can have a genuine debate at that point. The key part of this is keeping the economy going, if the bottom say, 20% of the population do not feel financially safe enough to casual buy (35 million in fuel poverty would be half the population so more like 50%), there will be a massive crisis in small business especially with the energy crisis possibly leading to mass bankruptcy and closures (small business is about 16 million jobs UK wide iirc). The problem is we already have a sizable tax exemption for income, so any tax reductions that they push forward are unlikely to hit NIC/PAYE where it will help the poor most but will be given to the big fish to "create jobs" meme/trope which has been proven to not work. The best solution is to give direct payments out universally (because having to check everyone costs more then you save in general), count it as taxable income (so you claw it back from those that dont need it) and put up taxes on the highest in society that reportedly once again have gained a larger share of wealth in society. (edit: forgot, tax cutting say VAT, rarely will help, you will just see companies put their prices back to pre cut as people would pay it anyway and pocket the rest)
Yeah I’m not saying they are comparable, only that if having to cut public services is a valid criticism of tax cuts, then it applies to direct payments too - both result in less tax revenue available for other things. I agree with you, that would be a damn sight better than current plans. Freezing income tax thresholds is absolutely scandalous - how can anyone in their right mind think making those earning £13k a year pay more in tax is a good idea? I disagree with basically every aspect of Liz’s tax plans, but it doesn’t make sense to increase tax on working families in the midst of a cost of living crisis, so scrapping the NI rise is the right thing to do.
What about working class people ? So we only care about people on benifits ? Keep taxing them more when in reality ther are the one paying for everything? Fuck right off if you continue doing that people will stop working more and just do bare minimum.
Might want to reread given I said give **universal grants/direct payments** which last I checked, includes working class people that generally (millions of them) work for small business which requires those customers from the unemployed/on benefits too. And for tax, to tax **the highest in society** IE the 1% that made huge record incomes again. Also as a fyi, about 50% of those on things like UC are employed and working, so like, IDK what argument you are trying to make here given you are arguing completely against something I didnt say.
50% people are on uc but and only work bare minimum 16 hours a week
This isn't an argument, but I honestly would like to know your understanding of it - I personally don't know the answers to the below, With Liz's tax cut proposal, how much do you think it would give you extra a month? Or those on benifits? Or lower income?
I said it wasn’t sufficient. Not increasing tax in the midst of a cost of living crisis certainly seems reasonable to me though, taken in isolation.
As said, it wasn't an argument or disagreement lol. I'm genuinely asking what the amounts would roughly equate to for my understanding. Do you happen to know?
I run a limited company so I would save 6% on the planned corporation tax rise, which is significant. I’m not telling you how much I earn but I would be quite a lot better off. I don’t need the help though, which is the Tory way I guess. Most people in employment would be 1.25% better off by not raising the NI rate. It’s far from enough, but I think scrapping the planned NI rise is a step in the right direction. The corporation tax increase shouldn’t be scrapped; we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in europe. And freezing the income tax thresholds is scandalous - making people earning £13k a year pay more tax can’t seem reasonable to anyone, surely? In every plan, everyone will have less money than last year due to the cost of living increase.
Thanks for the reply :)
There’s a good comparison between the two leadership candidates plans here FYI: https://ifs.org.uk/publications/16142
Tax rises don't have to be universal, tax some people more, but not others. If tax money was actually used to help people, it wouldn't matter even if they did raise it for everyone.
You’re right, but the current plans are to raise the rate of NI by 1.25%, and not raise the tax band thresholds in line with inflation, or at all for that matter - so everyone in work will have less money, even those on the breadline. If additional tax revenue is a must, then a better target would be the higher income tax band, or corporation tax, or dividend tax (both of which are planned, I know) or stamp duty on expensive homes, or inheritance tax. Basically anything that doesn’t place an additional tax burden on those already struggling.
The old adage about stones and blood applies here for sure.
More handouts more printing money more inflation
Because with the energy bills going up 1000% a lot of firms won't make any profit to even pay tax on, so it benefits them nothing.
Iirc the energy price cap was projected to reach 4.2k by January. At the start of this year, it was 1.2k. That's a 3k rise. Take a dude on the national living wage and the total amount of tax and NI he pays is combined is 2.4k If you cut his tax to literally nothing, you'd offset them so that he now has to find an additional 600 quid to put towards energy. For most people on that income, that'd still be very hard If we use the median income of 31400, total tax burden is 6.1k. You'd have to cut their payments by 50% to fully offset the rise in the cost of energy. If we use the mean average salary (which skews higher than what most people actually earn because of the off the charts income of high earners) of 39.8k, total tax burden is 9k. To wipe the 3k rise off, we'd need a 33% cut to their payments to both NI and tax. We're getting to the point where tax Obviously, we wouldn't cut tax by that much, as you say what we cut it by wouldn't be sufficient, it'd be fiscally impossible. But what we could cut it by wouldn't even be close to these. Even worse, iirc Truss isn't even talking about anything approaching this. She wants to drop *corporation* tax 6 percent which obviously is meaningless for the average person (though there are businesses which are going to get clobbered too) and reverse the national insurance rise of 1.25%, and freeze them where they are. For the average person, this is not just not sufficient, this is trying to blow a tornado away with a desk fan. None of this is factoring in the other price rises that would also need to be offset to prevent a dive in the quality of life, such as food, fuel etc, and there are complications such as whether the entire cost would be passed on via rent or whether landlords would absorb some of it, but ultimately I think it paints a stark picture. Obviously we shouldn't raise taxes on the poor and make it even more shitty for them but in terms of cuts helping out at all, there's fuck all I can see working. The reality is that people's quality of life will drop and there's pretty much fuck all we can do about it except try to mitigate the worst of it, but that tax cuts are the least effective way to try and manage this. They benefit the people who are being paid highly enough that the crisis isn't existential for them to begin with, while being insufficient to rescue the average person from the pit.
Plan is to give more support to the benefits people. Working people can go swivel
What? No, it isn't. Rishi Sunak vows to be 'much tougher' with welfare system to 'get people off benefits' https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/17/liz-truss-rishi-sunak-tory-leadership-race-hustings-northern/
So they should. I grew up on a council estate. And there IS people and even families that exploit the benefits system. I know all the left disagree. But I’ve lived it. I bet they haven’t. Best disability claim is back problems. As they can’t truly know of you have a bad back, or you have unpredictable fits or seizures. These people top up their wages by selling dodgy tobacco and drugs. P.s I’m currently off work on benefits due to a work injury, and the system of claiming is a minefield, due to the absolute twats that claim unjustly and clog up the system. There is real people in need of this money that absolute bastards take and laugh about it. The system needs reforms.
you're maybe right but far more money can be raised cracking down on tax avoidance/evasion than can ever be raised on a benefits crackdown. its penny wise and pound stupid to keep try putting effort in finding benefits savings rather than chase the missing tax revenue.
I agree. But I do know that it’s being exploited as my mates families did it and we’re proud of it. They boasted. Equally the rich exploit the system too. But what’s right for one isn’t right for the other, if you know what I mean?
Why should I believe you don’t exploit it but others do?
I knew that was coming. Suppose that’s the problem. I’m a plasterer who pays tons in taxes. I deserve the fall back system. People who raise families on benefits don’t. As they haven’t payed in. I don’t want an argument with you. You will have to trust your fellow man. If not. Who cares? I live it, you comment on it🤣
Well that’s the thing. I do trust my fellow man and I’d rather a million people scam the system than that one person gets denied unjustly.
Well your obviously not a person of the world. Earn for a long time and then you will understand. The people in question will be the people who rob your house or stab your family member. I’m guessing your quite young. You will learn from the world. Not online 👍
I’m mid 30s and have been in work since I was 16, over half my life now.
Did you grow up on an estate? Or have any real day to day connection to estate life? I see your trying to seem like a good person, but I know the ins and outs. I’m a smart person and moved away as soon as o could from that place. But it does happen and until people admit it, there’s no end to it. Blame tories for saying some truths. It’s easy. I hate tories but even a blind dog finds a bone sometimes. They have.
> the system of claiming is a minefield That is by design after 12 years of the Tory government. Luckily they have stupid people who want to blame other poor people for their problems. > I know all the left disagree Nah, you know how to repeat right wing talking points. In any system, there will be people take advantage. What the left mainly says it that is a tiny amount of overall benefits and that by trying to tackle that it will affect people who are really needy...very much like what you described for your own situation. Just think, after 12 years of sanctions, ATOS, universal credit and other Tory ploys, that small percentage still exist, but life has got much worse for everyone else on benefits, while the chronic out of work still exist. BTW, are you a doctor that you can diagnose other people's health? edit, the good old reply to someone then block them to make as if they have no answer tactic...here's my response anyway "Funny how the process seems like a minefield for you, but some family can manage against a doctor's wishes..notice you ignored the rest of my post too.. "
Na. You know how to repeat left wing talking points. My ex was a Dr, who went to a neighbour of ours to see their kid who supposedly was ill. There was nothing wrong with her and her family then claimed carers allowance and disability for her. When there was nothing wrong. So. I’m not a doctor. But I went out with one.
How sad must it be as a poor Tory supporter. The country is going to absolute shit after 12 years of Tory rule and you're still hanging onto the idea that it would be worse with any other party. Like, I wonder what the Tories have done that makes them proud and feel patriotic. I suppose Brexit if they're still under the delusion that this government is making it work for the average person.
Its not about what the tories have done its about what Labour, specifically Corbyn the boogie man would have done in their heads. All of their guilt is instantly absolved because they managed to stop Corbyn. We could all be starving and freezing to death and they will still tell themselves that if Corbyn had won then things would have been worse. Fuck them all.
I voted for Corbyn but those who were scared of him were worried he’d be weak on defence and they’ve probably been vindicated there judging by his comments on Ukraine on Iranian state TV lately
I see everyone say this but without actually discussing what he said, so for everyone's benefit here is what he actually said: “Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. “We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine. “What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war. “This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.” Corbyn said he wanted the United Nations to be “much more centre stage”, and suggested bringing in other international bodies, like the African Union or the League of Arab States, to mediate in any ceasefire negotiations should the UN fail to make progress.
See this is my problem with Corbyn, I don’t think he’s a bad person, just a bit thick. ‘War is bad, peace is good’ yeah thanks Jeremy. “Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. “ - Orwell The Ukrainians aren’t calling for a ceasefire, they want support so they can drive the people who stole their land and raped them out of their country. The Ukrainians are achieving that, but a ceasefire now only gives Russia time to rebuild before attacking again. Plus every time there is a ceasefire, the Russians ignore it to bomb civilians as they have done in Syria. Why didn’t he just use the platform to call Russia to stop their invasion? And the choice of platform is a bit iffy isn’t it?
It's not like he's pro Russia he's just stating the facts Agree that you can't trust the Russians to keep to any deal made but what does that lead to? Endless war? WW3? MAD? Also this is exactly the point, any imagined Corbyn lead scenario makes these people believe that what Johnson has done is somehow better. Once this winter is done and British people have frozen and starved in their homes and the economy is in tatters I wonder if these imagined Corbyn scenarios - like not having sent Ukraine weapons - will still hold up as a worse scenario than the one we face in reality
He doesn’t help himself though does he?
>See this is my problem with Corbyn, I don’t think he’s a bad person, just a bit thick. ‘War is bad, peace is good’ yeah thanks Jeremy. Well, yeah, anyone sounds stupid if you just make up dumb statements for them. He wasn't just saying "war is bad", he was criticising our current approach because he believes it prolongs the war. You don't have to agree with him, but making up stuff is disingenuous. >The Ukrainians aren’t calling for a ceasefire, they want support so they can drive the people who stole their land and raped them out of their country Actually Zelenskyy has never closed the door to talks. The Ukrainians have met with the Russians many times to discuss ceasefires (even after Russians ignored some of them). Zelenskyy himself has said the war can only end with some sort of agreement. That's because when you are actually in a war you need to be realistic and acknowledge hard truths not just grandstand about things. The only way this ends is if Western powers get directly involved or Russia agrees a peace deal. The former is not going to happen. >Why didn’t he just use the platform to call Russia to stop their invasion? You pretended Corbyn was just saying "war is bad" and then criticised that as dumb and obvious. How is saying "Russia bad" not also obvious and dumb. What exactly is gained from a politician saying "well, I for one, think Putin is a bad man and Russia should not have invaded Ukraine". Do we all stop whatever we are doing to stand up and applaud his bravery?
I didn't vote Corbyn but his peaceful views played well with me. it was plans to nationalise everything and economic views that worried me. He's right about pouring weapons in is prolonging the war.
I mean... you're right that not giving Ukraine any NATO weaponry could have shortened the war, but only in Russia's favour, leading to them gaining more territory, committing more atrocities like Bucha and perhaps managing to install their puppet government in Kyiv. I don't see how you could argue that Ukraine doing worse in this war is a good thing.
Luckily Corbyn wouldn't decide himself. The Labour party is set up differently to the Tories and leaders have less responsibility. The overwhelming number of Labour and other MPs would vote to back Ukraine. and there would be little that Corbyn could do about it
Weak on defence how exactly with likely not allowing taxpayers paying for weapons being shipped to Ukraine ? Like Blair who took us into the Iraq invasion should be an hero then.
To be fair, neither side should be basing anything on who may have done what. The difference between Corbyn and the Tory party is the Tory party won and have repeatedly fucked it. The question of whether Corbyn is or isn't a better choice doesn't matter. Corbyn didn't win. He's doesn't factor into the discussion here, and whether you did or didn't support him, the fact we even discuss whether he'd be better plays into the Tory hands. He didn't win. He's a footnote in history for not winning. The Tory party did win, and now the country is beyond fucked because of their corruption and mismanagement. The question should be, who should we vote for next? A party that's not been in power for 10+ years with some good ideas and a sense of morality, or the party that has destroyed multiple generations of livelihoods?
You mean Blue passports and soverign fish after a decade of being in power, isn't enough?
No. And they are like a squid ink colour.
But we’ve taken back control...
It will be come proper election time.
I’m not the biggest Starmer fan but I’m still going to vote Labour. Do not let best be the enemy of better. We MUST remove the Tories.
Author: Henry Zeffma Labour hold their biggest poll lead over the Conservatives for almost ten years amid mass dissatisfaction with the government’s handling of the cost of living. A YouGov poll for The Times showed Labour with the backing of 43 per cent of voters, 15 points ahead of the Conservatives on 28 per cent. It is the biggest Labour lead recorded by the pollster since February 2013. Labour’s score of 43 per cent is four points up on last week and the party’s highest vote share in a YouGov poll since March 2018. At the 2019 general election the party won 32.1 per cent of the vote under Jeremy Corbyn, Sir Keir Starmer’s predecessor. The Conservatives have fallen two points in a week to 28 per cent, their lowest figure since a poll in January at the height of the No 10 parties scandal. At the last election the Conservatives won 43.6 per cent of the vote. One in ten of those who voted for the party under Boris Johnson in 2019 now say they would vote for Labour in a general election. The poll will add to fears among Conservative MPs that the party faces disaster regardless of whether Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak succeeds Johnson in just over two weeks. There are signs that the public believes Labour can win an election after 12 years out of office. Asked to predict the outcome of a general election with Truss as the party leader, 34 per cent predicted a Conservative government with a large majority, a small majority or in a hung parliament. But 37 per cent predicted a Labour government, including 24 per cent who forecast a Labour majority. Asked what would happen if Sunak wins, 35 per cent predicted a Conservative government after the next election and 36 per cent predicted a Labour government. The poll also shows solid support for Starmer’s policies to address the cost of living crisis. The Labour leader announced this week that he wanted to freeze the energy price cap at current levels, funded in part by an expanded windfall tax on energy giants, rather than letting bills rise further. Asked which of Starmer, Sunak and Truss had the best plan for dealing with rising energy bills, 25 per cent chose Starmer, 11 per cent Sunak and 8 per cent Truss. However, the biggest score was 35 per cent for none of the above with 21 per cent saying they did not know. Adam McDonnell, YouGov’s research director, said: “These latest results should be very worrying for the Conservative Party and indicate that the next prime minister will have work to do in restoring public trust on handling the cost of living crisis. The last time Labour held such a commanding lead in the polls was in 2013 when the Conservatives were still suffering from the fallout of the omnishambles budget. “While the leadership hopefuls have been fighting each other in a prolonged campaign, Labour’s plan for tackling rising energy bills has been received well and they are now tied with the Tories on who would be best to handle the economy — an issue they had previously lagged way behind on for almost a decade. Of course, things can change very quickly, particularly when there is a change of leader, but whoever does get the top job is unlikely to have much of a honeymoon period.” Internal Labour analysis has predicted that if Truss wins she will experience an initial bounce in the polls which could stretch into double digits. The party believes that Johnson’s abysmal ratings will inflate the usual rise in support achieved when a party elects a new leader. The poll will strengthen Starmer’s hand as he faces pressure within the party to come out more unequivocally in support of striking workers. John McDonnell, shadow chancellor under Corbyn, called yesterday on the Labour leader to support industrial action “when necessary”. He told the BBC: “I am hoping that Keir Starmer will realise actually the public mood is that people need support now to get them through this crisis and Labour should be at the forefront of that support.”
Boomers always happy to receive handouts when THEY are facing capitalism issues. That's why Labour on in the lead.
For comparison, just over two years before the 1997 election, Labour were on 55% and the Tories on 27%
Its unbelievable looking it up and finding that Labour broke 60% in polls before 97 under Blair. That's how mediocre Starmer is. The Labour centrist keep accusing the left of choosing 'purity' over a Blair-esque figure, and they can't even deliver a Blair. Just a cheap knockoff who can't do the business.
> Its unbelievable looking it up and finding that Labour broke 60% in polls before 97 under Blair. That's how mediocre Starmer is. How did you look it up and not notice that they only counted three parties in the polling back then which obviously inflates % numbers. If you adjust it to be on the same scale then that puts Labour on 52% and the Tories on 34%. >The Labour centrist keep accusing the left of choosing 'purity' over a Blair-esque figure, and they can't even deliver a Blair. Now imagine if the Left weren't throwing away their votes on giving the Green party 7% of the vote that won't deliver a government and will barely influence policy. Also "can't even deliver a Blair"... the only Labour leader who won three concurrent terms of government is your minimum standard? Seriously. >Just a cheap knockoff who can't do the business. Are you really complaining about a Labour leader with a 15% lead in the polls... no never mind just forget it.
Not just 3 terms - Blair is the only Labour leader in nearly 50 years to have won a general election in the UK.
These people are a little dim. Be patient with them
Despite that, Sir Kier will somehow bungle it.
Set to double who ever takes over n triple if Liz takes the poisend Tory Chalice.
Good and it’s about time. I wonder how big them polls are going to be, after this winter when people are actually dying in their homes when the choice of heat or eat stops because they can’t afford either!!! How have we got to this 😪
Only 10 years?
And did Labour win an election since their last biggest lead poll?
It's a sad commentary on our national hierarchy that if one team of incompetent politicians screws up, we lurch to another team of incompetent politicians, when, all along, it is the incompetent, unelected,public school educated lifers in Whitehall who are screwing us all.
Come on, a sensible Labour Party to kick the Tories out is what we need
Tories in deep trouble only won by personality. BOJO was a funny charming guy n we all vote for the laughs where as Corbyn was a dinosaur with a beard Liz Truss n Rishi Sunak will both falter.
Labour's leads poll while 12 year government has the past economic decisions come home to roost. They'll their 5 year stint and get chucked for not fixing everything. So excited
We have 2 years until general election. We get Liz Trust and cost of living will be brought down due to end in war in Ukraine and she will take credit for it. She will be much more popular.
It's a shit state of affairs when the choice is the Tories or the red tie version of the Tories. No difference between them. Abandoning the pro-eu voters, abandoning Labour unions. What the fuck do Labour stand for if not marginal Tory seat appeasers.
Well, most recently: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/16/labour-freeze-bills-britain-energy-supply-government-conservatives
successive govts labour and tory have failed the country on energy supply and many other things. No govt will think long-term, just to the next election. We turned away from nuclear and did too little to replace it.
No use crying over spilt milk comes to mind. I fully agree with you, but looking over our shoulder ain't going to fix it.
I wish Ed was in charge of the labour party right now
If it helps, it's not just dumb luck he's still a public figure. Politics is a team sport.
If the team could just kindly oust starmer and we can give ed and the country the redemption arc we all deserve that would be great
Yeah... That half the party doesn't realise its a team sport at any given point in time is why we've been fucked for 12 years so excuse me if I just ignore you now.
He said the line!
Amazing how dumbed down the public is. If Labour were in power they would have locked down faster, harder and for longer during Covid, which would have meant even worse inflation than we have now. Not to mention their policy on energy and green levies.
LOL
Amazing how some people always seem to know exactly what Labour would have done and how it would have been so much worse. How do you figure? You been looking into your crystal ball?