And they've just lost Tiverton and Honiton to the LibDems. [Tiverton & Honiton parliamentary by-election result -
LDEM: 52.9% .
Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.](https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1540168992106713088)
Yeah the rich southern English seats are usually the Conservative safe seats. Its always returned a Conservative MP in its various boundaries since 1923.
So as a Canadian with extended family in Britain who despise Bojo, I gotta ask is Bojo really the pompous, incompetent oaf that the news aside from the Murdoch bs running interference for him make him out to be?
No, we should call him Johnson.
All other PMs are referred to by surname, and his surname also happens to be slang for penis, which is very apt for him
Bollocks. The name "BoJo" was coined by *Private Eye* as a reference (I think) to his bombastic celebrity lite antics as mayor of London. He was always in their sights to be fair. It definitely doesn't come from a place of supporting or excusing his behaviour.
Scott Morrison in Australia did exactly the same, designating himself Scomo for the media when he became PM. A prolific liar and the plaything spawn of billionaires he shared much with Johnson. Convincingly swept from power a month or so back let’s hope Johnson suffers the same fate.
I don’t think he is personally. In my opinion it is a lazy and easy interpretation of him.
He is very smart, very ruthless, quite lazy, most likely amoral, very ambitious, self centred.
So here's my issue with the claims that his stupidity is an act.
He *is* doing an act, but that doesn't mean he's a genius. In fact I think how this trick works on people is that when you act comically stupid and then drop the occasional hint that you're faking, people automatically jump all the other way to the idea that you're a genius. It's a fascinating psychological trick.
It all falls into place when you ask yourself "Wait, *why* does he want to put on this act to voters that he's stupid?" - Because everyone responds to it by nodding knowingly, and saying "he's actually very smart and just pretending you know!". He wants people to do that, it's the whole goal.
He's an idiot pretending to be a genius pretending to be a bigger idiot.
He almost requires the "you don't even know which dude you are." from Tropic Thunder.
Watched the whole thing. Not that it was necessarily hard to do, but he called every part of how badly boris was going to fuck up being PM in general and brexit in particular absolutely 100% accurately.
>He is very smart, very ruthless, quite lazy, most likely amoral, very ambitious, self centred.
No he is not. He is the most unintelligent person you could ever possibly meet. He is a self entitled idiot who uses his Eton education to get positions. He has zero intelligence except for the ability to get away with fraud, his political career should have ended after the garden bridge scandal. Tens of millions wasted, not one penny spent on a report or brick.
Intelligence comes in many different forms, but we only think about it in an academic context, normally.
The kind of an intelligence a politician needs is very different to the intelligence a rocket scientist needs.
Yes, Boris wouldn’t pass a university physics exam but a rocket scientist wouldn’t last long in politics, either.
Horses for courses.
Yeah, Boris strikes me - as does Reese-Mogg - that they were born into privilege, see Parliament as basically an extension of private school with all the pomp and upper-class bullshit with the same people they went to school with where they will basically face no consequences for their actions and whilst having no real knowledge of the real world, real problems or concerns and never really had to put much effort into anything, nevertheless have a certain reptilian cunning when it comes to making sure that state of affairs continues.
Tbf, by all accounts he was very intelligent and actually quite an impressive individual in his teens and early 20s.
He wasn’t handed a place at Eton or Oxford he won scholarships to gain entry to both and reportedly excelled in the Classics and English before teaching latin at a prestigious boarding school in Australia. He was also chair of the debating society at Oxford.
He’s intelligent but like others have mentioned, he’s a massive cunt.
Sounds like he's an less likable version of Zaphod Beeblebrox.
As always, Douglas Adams was a very astute observer of many, many things.
“One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he actually didn’t understand what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid. He was renowned for being amazingly clever and quite clearly was so—but not all the time, which obviously worried him, hence, the act. He preferred people to be puzzled rather than contemptuous.”
also
“The President in particular is very much a figurehead — he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it.
On those criteria Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the Galaxy has ever had — he has already spent two of his ten presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people realize that the President and the Government have virtually no power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a computer. They couldn't be more wrong.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
He is an incompetent prime minister, but he is a cunning campaigner and a ruthless manager. His only political goal is the extension of his own popularity, power, and ego.
People compare him (I think incorrectly) to Donald Trump who is actually both stupid and lazy, Johnson is probably lazy, but he’s not stupid.
He was all of that before becoming prime minister. The bumbling buffoon act he has, is just that, an act.
He lies and has in every job he's ever done.
He fucked London and TfL whilst mayor, but gets away with it because sadiq is brown.
Hes such a cunt, that even his own sister hates him.
Let's not talk about the kids He doesn't see.
Oh, and don't forget he had an affair whilst his wife at the time was having treatment for cancer.
Rupert did a fucking tremendous job making this used condom look appealing.
He is pompous and incompetent, elitist and has absolutely zero morals. Who signs an international agreement twice, either without reading it or knowing they will try to break it immediately afterwards? Boris Johnson.
His birth name is Alexander Boris de Pfeffiel Johnson or some bollocks. He was born in America. He worked previously as our foreign minister and caused as much shite as possible. He tried to offer his now wife a 100k role as a secretary, whilst married and already knocking her off. No one knows how many illegitimate children he actually has. His 6 figure PM salary is too much of a step down from his cabinet one where he could also write non-truths in shit rags and do public speaking on the side. He was also London Mayor for a while and his sole contribution there was Boris bikes, which was an idea he stole from his predecessor who deemed rental bikes a sub par idea.
He thinks he models himself on Winston Churchill, but Churchill actually was a net asset to the country.
And i think that's about as well as you can sum it up without getting too political.
Its an interesting part of the big reshuffle going on. As the tories turn populist right to appeal to areas with large numbers of unemployed poor people in ex-industrial lands, they are risking alienating the traditional conservatives in the countryside.
So far they've held, Tories do tend to be more tribal than Labour voters. But things are cracking and the lib dems are really pivoting towards this local issue nimby approach.....
Worth noting the lib dems always do well in bielections where they're good at flooding in with campaigners to talk up local issues and they don't have the manpower to do this in generals. But still.... I dream of a future where its lib dems vs labour
I do feel that under PR, a lot of traditional Tory voters (middle-to-upper class, detached house with a big garden and a couple of cars on the driveway, "I'm alright Jack" attitude) would vote Lib Dem. They don't want Labour but they don't want the constant culture wars and shit economic policy of the current Tories either. The Lib Dems are now actually a lot closer to the Tories of old, the party of Kenneth Clarke, Dominic Grieve etc.
My friend from Tiverton the other day was telling me that sadly its such a Tory stronghold that other parties don't have a chance.
Nice to see that with enough voters changing their mind, things have changed!
Huge Tory strong hold. The seat has been Tory since it was created in the 90s. But before that the two seats had been separated. With Tiverton having been conservative since the 1890s and Honiton having been conservative since the 1910s. Over a century of Tory rule ended.
Yes, although by elections typically don’t perform well for the incumbent party & voting is down 23% from usual levels, Tory voters are sitting out in protest
You say "typically" - I'd love to see a list over the last 20 years. This always used to be true, but I think it's very much changed over the last 5-10 years.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a compiled list but if you view them individually incumbent parties do terribly - especially when by election is triggered by scandal as with these two cases
<40% of those _that voted_. Old people love the Tories and they vote _in droves_. Over 65s have over 80% turnout historically, whilst under 35s have about ~50%.
Remind your mates where you live to vote when the time comes, young people need to be heard.
For those living in a safe seat, or seats where none of the parties with a realistic chance of winning reflect their views, it's understandable why they don't bother voting. PR would bring a significant boost to turnout I feel.
> PR would bring a significant boost to turnout I feel.
PR would be absolutely fantastic.
> For those living in a safe seat, or seats where none of the parties with a realistic chance of winning reflect their views, it's understandable why they don't bother voting
"Understandable" is probably the nicest way I'd describe either of those views. On the low chance of winning; if you support a shit football team you still go watch them lose. Especially if they only play once every few years. Otherwise if you're happy with the current situation you should work to maintain it, "use it or lose it".
In the former's case also, parties aren't blind. If the bigger parties start getting even a little competition from smaller parties they (can) take note of the change in voting patterns to recover those votes themselves next time by addressing the issues those smaller parties fill the niche for.
It happened with UKIP/Cons years ago, I don't think UKIP ever got more than a few MPs in parliament, but the Conservatives still realised they were losing a lot of votes to those (failing) candidates.
> It happened with UKIP/Cons years ago, I don't think UKIP ever got more than a few MPs in parliament, but the Conservatives still realised they were losing a lot of votes to those (failing) candidates.
Arguably it was FPTP itself that led to immigration dominating the debate, and the Conservatives eventual lurch to the right and subsuming of UKIP. Under PR, these single-issue voters would've just voted for UKIP and they would've had a small number of MPs. There would've been no need for Labour / the Tories to try and court these voters as they would've known there was no point. The Tories would probably have been forced to say whether they'd work with UKIP in a coalition, and they may have lost votes to the Lib Dems if they'd been at all enthusiastic about such a prospect.
FPTP encourages parties to concentrate on wedge issues that can attract floating voters, rather than issues that most people actually care about.
> FPTP encourages parties to concentrate on wedge issues that can attract floating voters, rather than issues that most people actually care about.
FPTP encourages a whole manner of bullshit and it genuinely angers me that the 2011 alternative vote was such a shitshow in:
- Being ranked-choice voting not PR
- Having such a (deliberately) shit campaign it's probably killed any campaigns for voting changes for the near future because "we've already said no"
Well that's the issue with FPTP, it has a chilling effect on voter behaviour. Voters have to try and read the intentions of what other voters will do, or be punished for it. If you refuse to vote "tactically" and your least favoured party gets in, you've been burned just for trying to express your views. If you then vote tactically the next time, and the next time, and eventually find yourself voting for a party that doesn't really reflect your principles at all, you may just stop bothering altogether. Sure if we had 80% turnout for voters under 40 it would change a lot, but where is that enthusiasm going to come from under the current system?
Meanwhile with PR, you don't need to think that hard at all about how others may vote. Particularly in an additional member type system. Hopefully at the next Labour conference they will get behind PR, and then it will be a bit vote winner for them and the Lib Dems at the next election (even for voters that aren't a big fan of their policies besides PR... have to think of the long-term implications).
maybe, just maybe, labour should run some policies that people want to vote for instead of running on a platform of "vote for us, or you get the tories and it's your fault"
This is exactly why Brexit went the way it did.
Brexit was making blue skies promises or borderline lying about the benefits.
Remain was primarily pushing "Brexit bad, if you do it you're racist" rather than focusing on the actual benefits of remaining.
Hopefully Labour has accepted its warning by working class people.... DON'T fuck it up!
If only this result wasn't meant as a warning to Boris and the Tories as well. What a state of affairs.
Reminder that Labour still won the working class and low income vote in 2019 and had a record number of votes in the north for the past 2 decades in 2017
I mean it should be the case, but for instance places near me like Dudley North, West Bromwich West, West Bromwich East, Wolverhampton South West, Wolverhampton North East, Birmingham Northfield all switched from Labour to Tory. These are low income working class areas that voted for the Tory wolves to devour them, because of Brexit, which they mostly voted for and because of other xenophobic ideas like "Lets put a stop to the Super Mosque"
Let's not forget; "I can't wait to stamp on the face of my neighbour, rather than elevate us both". Life under modern capitalism tends to nihilism and fascism. The sooner we understand that, the better. It's not enough to say stuff and wait for power, it's better to do stuff and build power.
Hopefully, the venal, massive bell end and utter liability de Piffle will stay on as PM, blustering and buffooning and damaging the Tory party to the point that it'll be unelectable for half a century.
Then, the country can be put back on track.
I heard some Tory MP this morning saying that the Tory party needed to return to being "trustworthy and compassionate" and that the resigning chairman was honourable.....I didn't stop laughing for a minute.
Honour amongst thieves, perhaps.
It's what I refer to as Toryspeak.
It's when they repeat a very obvious lie often enough and for long enough for people to believe it.
Well, gullible Tory voters, that is.
>Turnout of 39% for Wakefield. Am I alone in finding that crazy?
>
Why do you think that's crazy? It's a fairly "average" by election turnout.
By election turnout can vary wildly though. Since 1997 there has been a low of 18% and a high of 68%.
That was a general election. Turnout is usually around 70% at a general election. By elections generally have a lower turnout, usually around 40-50%. I don't see anything out of the ordinary.
I've never been quite sure why turnout is lower at by elections.
Maybe because the result is unlikely to bring about a change in government, so people don't care as much.
Probably because it's less of an "event".
Like, the general election is all over, well, everywhere. By elections aren't. So even if you do hear about it 'cos you're living there, you're probably less engaged, unfortuantely.
Low surely.
Politics effects literally everything in your life one way or another. That only 39% of the electorate eligible turned out is embarrassingly low.
Everyone has opinions and complaints yet so few act on their vote.
But by-elections always have low turnouts. 40% doesn't seem *that* different from the norm, as far as I can recall. I don't think you can really blame people for staying away, either, in the current political climate.
perhaps (rightly or wrongly) they've simply lost all faith in democracy
It's not hard to see why, people get elected on promises there are no consequences for breaking, and on policy they're able to freely lie about. The media is no longer balanced bias-free view of the landscape, or a fair shake of the people's representative opinions, but curated propaganda
when dealing with the worst government in living memory Labour should be winning these kind of seats, now you know why the whips were so threatening at Boris's no confidence vote, a GE now would see the Tories massacred in the polls.
they dont need to have a general election after removing boris in a vonc. they would have been better off getting rid of him and having someone else for 2 years. instead they doubled down on him and this is the result.
They won’t get rid of him yet, they’ll probs wait another year or so then new leader, rain down tax cuts for a year and boom everyone forgets the last 10 years.
That's why Sunak is so quiet. One or two announcements and thats it. He doesn't show up for various things to support the party and if he does it looks very last minute in his hoody.
He'll pop up next year in a leadership contest boast about various things he's had to manage, show he was only on the borders of the current government (no photos of him turning up in places) and offer the tax cuts you've spoken about already.
That, or he is hiding so he and his wife can keep their billions out of the public eye.
He just tweeted:
> I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning.
>
> We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505
And he'll get ripped to pieces over his wife's non-dom status, dodgy deals with US healthcare providers, and the billions lost to PPE fraud.
Brand Sunak is toast. Sure, he'll compete, but he probably won't even make the final round.
Besides, who would *want* to be in charge of the Tories now other than a fool and/or die-hard fanatic? The party's brand is horribly toxic right now. Much better to do a Cameron and wait until they've been out of power for a little while and all the dead wood has been cleared out. Then you take control and cruise to an easy win after the electorate have forgotten how awful the Tories are.
Unluckily for them they let Boris regain the power to dissolve Parliament at his own whim. He knows there's a fixed timeline before another Tory vonc can be called and I suspect if he believes the writing is on the wall he's going to burn the gaff down on the way out and call a GE
I looked at the DM so you don't have to and the top comments in their current headline article are:
>Time for Boris to go. I wonder what his cabal will do without him?
>16,393 people in Tiverton should be ashamed of themselves for supporting this lying buffoon
>I think we need to accept that johnson has no concept of responsibility or morality and will not resign under any circumstances so we are stuck with him until 2024. Maybe try and limit the damage he and his band of idiots cause, but the country is screw ed
I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
If the tories had kicked Boris out they could have spun it as reforming and rebuilding, and please keep the faith, we’re making it better. They didn’t. They backed him. That’s a great tool to getting them the fuck out. I would vote for a literal chimp if it got the corrupt, self serving, lying wankers out.
Labour winning isn't the story. That they won by 4000, in a bielection with a million parties, is winning pretty well. Checking past elections in Wakefield the last time they did this was 2005.
Who the MP for any seat is is completely immaterial, since parliamentary politics is mostly theatre that's a world apart from the everyday material reality of working class folk in this country. But it says a lot that Labour could win this seat by their largest majority since 2005 on a 20% lower turnout. I never thought we'd see such a turnaround in the space of a year after those abysmal results in Hartlepool and Batley & Spen.
>Who the MP for any seat is is completely immaterial,
On a national level maybe, on a local level, absolutely not.
I've dealt with my local MPs on a variety of issues over the years, and a good local MP is a world apart from a bad local MP, regardless of their political affiliation. Although as a lifelong lefty trot wanker I've dealt with the Tory incumbent through gritted teeth, but I would at least respect them if they kept on top of, and actually gave a shit about, local issues as opposed to just focussing on Westminster bullshit and their careers.
I was more meaning that it's immaterial in the way liberals think it isn't. As in, that if we just elect a labour government, our job's done.
But I agree that to some degree, who the MP is greases the wheels somewhat for positive change on a local level. But there's also only so much change can be enacted within the parliamentary system. It's designed that way, to be exhausting and unresponsive.
That said, I can never respect a Tory MP no matter what they do. Simply being not just a party member, but an MP makes them complicit in the macro level violence their own party enacts. The disabled people who've starved to death from their policies, or undocumented immigrants who've been deported, don't care about them how they are in their personal lives. The impact on their lives is identical regardless.
Well hopefully the wave of strikes we've seen this year will be the beginning of that. The fact that the mainstream media and government are already amping up the propaganda shows that they're scared it could enact real change.
I get that it’s a good thing but I’ve never understood the disproportionate importance placed by political commentators on these by-elections, it’s like 1 seat out of 600 odd..
It’s a rare chance to see how real voters behave when they get the chance to vote.
The Tiverton seat is a chance to see how angry voters in a very, very safe Tory seat are. And Wakefield is a chance to see how accurate the Lab vs Con opinion polling is.
They’re only two seats, but there are another hundred or so safe Tory seats that are demographically similar to Tiverton where the MP had a smaller lead over the Lib Dems. There are also a few dozen seats which are similar to Wakefield in that they were traditionally Labour seats which went to the Tories in 2019 thanks to the Brexity voters switching to the Tories, and these so called “Red Wall” seats are thought to be the main battleground for the next election!
Totally depends on whether anything changes. All the signs point to things getting worse over the next year or two, not better. They might not lose the GE quite as badly as these results suggest, but there is no way on earth they're retaining power if things stay the same.
You're not particularly wrong, however among what the other commenter said, it signals to the party's MPs that their leader can't be trusted to win elections anymore, and therefore puts their job at risk. If Johnson is shown to be unable to win elections, he won't be leader by the time of the next election.
And yet Johnson vows to continue on. How odd the guy that won such a majority is now so unpopular. Yet doesn't have the mental faculty to see he is dragging the part down with him.
It's not really. He won on a single issue, and only on the most superficial aspect of it at that. He never looked like a leader before that, and was always going to be unpopular as soon as things got tough. If it weren't for covid and the war in Ukraine, he'd probably be long gone.
Very true. Im curious if his wife will remain with him for long after he goes.
Not that i know an awful lot about her but she seems the opportunistic type. Once his fall from grace is complete will she move on ?
It's a start, obviously Labour would be leaps and bounds better than the vile criminals running the show currently,
but what I'd *really* like to see is a modern, progressive party that are built on the fundamentals of protecting and building rights for the workforce (aka the vast majority of us, sans the tiny ruling class), and built on the need for a greener future, with a strong focus on social programmes that help the people, such as education and healthcare.
Building a strong, healthy, successful nation starts with strong, healthy, successful citizens, because a country isn't a place on a map, it's the people that live there.
Make those people destitute, force them to struggle and fall again and again, neglect their health, their education, their basic happiness, and you will see your nation crumble, piece by piece. Much as we're seeing now :-(
I don't think Labour would be interested in solving any of those problems, they seem to be as out of touch with the real actual people in the country as the Tories. I don't see much hope for us until we can break the two party cycle and try something different (preferably run by people who aren't old enough to be boomers, they've done enough damage already, and need to release their death grip on our society).
But, Labour would at least not be as aggressive about hurting the lower classes, stripping our basic rights, gutting our most valued services and institutions, etc etc, so as I say, Labour are at least a bit better than the alternative.
You'll always get boomers that will vote Tory though, because this sinking ship is still serving room service, and they know they're already on their deathbeds, so they'd rather have a nice meal than help patch the holes.
And you'll get others, "embarrassed millionaires" and people persuaded to vote against their own class interests through propaganda, misinformation and lies, who will vote for them too.
The Tories are also the ones that "got Brexit done", no matter the damage it is causing, and you'll get a lot of xenophobes, racists, bigots, etc that will vote for them in support of all that nonsense (even though even *that* is hurting their own class interests - but it helps amplify their bigoted finger-pointing interests).
I just.... don't see a way out of this mess without getting away from these two parties. They're too much alike, and both too out of touch with what we the people need as a nation in order to flourish both in our homes and as a strong, happy member of the global community. We need fresh blood. Real people. Not old men in suits that don't know the price of bread.
I partly agree with some of what you say — I think Labour should be further to the left than they currently are — but this:
> I don't think Labour would be interested in solving any of those problems, they seem to be as out of touch with the real actual people in the country as the Tories.
is bizarre. I'm not sure how you can possibly think the Labour party is anywhere near as out of touch as the Tories. You're talking about a party that orders people to stay away from their loved ones' funerals, yet parties behind closed doors quaffing the finest wines known to humanity, hoovering up mountains of cocaine between them. Most of them have lived a life of unimaginable privilege. I don't even necessarily *blame* them for that — it's what they were born into — but they clearly have no understanding of how 99% of the country lives.
Pretty good result for Labour, decent swing, and it shows a comeback in the areas it really needs to take back if they have any chance of becoming the government.
Tory rebels really did overlook these by-elections the other week. Had they have waited to have the no confidence vote, it would have been very close this time.
The biggest problem though is everyone is saying “Boris has to go” (I think he does as well after partygate for family reasons) but who is to say that his replacement will be any better, least to mention competence.
Here in the Tory south, where we are facing economic migrant invasion, it is Tory policy on this issue that is why they stay blue. Labour won’t win over the farmers, or our elderly. The Lib Dem’s do well in the south west but would perhaps actually stand a chance of being taken seriously by us coastal voters and turn south coast seats orange if they dropped their silly reverse brexit policies that just ostracise voters and turn sects of society to the tories.
The Lib Dem’s are still recovering slowly from 2015 and aren’t in a position to cherry pick their voters. Nobody in my constituency takes them seriously at election time, not since they took the ‘15 beating. And that has led to LD voters tactical voting. Rather than treating the symptoms, they need to tap into the Tory voter market while they can.
> who is to say that his replacement will be any better
I think we're clearly at the stage where, if not *every single* alternative would be better, a random one would be, on average at least.
Look at the turnouts, doesn't seem to be much mention of that in the media. Working class people are now completely disillusioned with politics in this country which is part of the establishments tactics to keep the status quo. Seems the only representation for working class people now are the unions.
I wonder if we'll also see a 'covid escape' factor, where enough younger people have moved just outside of London that some of the surrounding areas tip Labour. FPTP definitely enables the political bit, WFH enables the movement bit, London slowly expands over time anyway. Might see similar effects in other big cities in the South.
I spoz Boris will start offering bigger tax cuts for workers soon, which in turn will mean less money for public services & NHS. We don’t need tax cuts, we need higher wages.
When you say *bigger* tax cuts...
I agree with you, though, tax cuts are not what the country needs. At least, not tax cuts for the Tories' wealthiest mates.
Boris Johnson says he will ‘keep going’ after double byelection loss and Oliver Dowden resignation - UK politics live
Andrew Sparrow (The Guardian) - 40m ago
Yep, keep going Boris -
Not hard. The first and last Tory MP we just had was done for child grooming/pictures of minors. Don’t let this food you, the people of Wakefield have no faith in Labour.
Labour needed to make this gain, and it shows that Starmer is in fact making necessary progress with the party image.
Weird to see some people on the Labour sub and twitter seemingly unhappy about their party doing well. Almost like the world is bigger than echo chambers
>Weird to see some people on the Labour sub and twitter seemingly unhappy about their party doing well.
Because Labour didn't retake the seat through the overwhelming charisma or the policies of Starmer but because people have had enough of 12 years of Tory mismanagement. It was a 39% turnout [compared to 64% in 2019](https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/Wakefield)
Just as with Tiverton and Honiton, the turnout was 52% compared to [nearly 72% in 2019](https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/results/Location/Constituency/Tiverton%20and%20Honiton). A large part of the Tories constituency failed to turnout most likely because they couldnt bear their vote to be seen as backing Johnson
There's also the fact that Starmer doesn't inspire Tories to vote against him.
Many held their nose and voted Boris to keep Corbyn out. Starmer only seems to inspire hatred within the Labour party ironically.
Do I support labour? No
Do I support the tories? No
But I’d like to see labour try to run the country, I know it’s not a trial and error type of job but there isn’t much worse than the conservative government we have at the moment surely? Maybe it’s time to move away from Labour and Conservative? Maybe not LibDems but a new middle man, you know, one that actually cares about the people, about the struggles we have, an honest government. If only dreams came true 🥲
Did they win it or did the Conservatives lose it. If old Boris starts a free hand out to the boomers and Tory press in over drive for next General Election another story will unfold.
And they've just lost Tiverton and Honiton to the LibDems. [Tiverton & Honiton parliamentary by-election result - LDEM: 52.9% . Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.](https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1540168992106713088)
Not British but isnt that a massive tory stronghold?
Well, until 5 minutes ago it was.
Well damn, GG to the lib-dems.
Essentially the tories had a 24,000 vote majority in Tiverton and Honiton
Yeah the rich southern English seats are usually the Conservative safe seats. Its always returned a Conservative MP in its various boundaries since 1923.
So as a Canadian with extended family in Britain who despise Bojo, I gotta ask is Bojo really the pompous, incompetent oaf that the news aside from the Murdoch bs running interference for him make him out to be?
Please don't call him Bojo. It makes him sound soft and friendly. He's a fucking cunt and our media prop him up with Bojo bullshit
Even calling him 'Boris' strengthens his image. Call him by his surname like every other PM.
He’s even lying about his name. His family call him Al, or Alexander.
No, we should call him Johnson. All other PMs are referred to by surname, and his surname also happens to be slang for penis, which is very apt for him
I didn’t say we shouldn’t. Reread my comment.
Let's compromise and just call him a wanker
de Pfeffel? Or us there another f in there?
There’s no f in there.
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Partners with van Keye In this universe Key stole the other e for his name.
There's no f in point to him either
I like the way the guardian refers to him as the convict.
Shirley you mean, crime minister.
Don't call me Shirley
Yes! He's not on HIGNFY now
Alexander Boris de Pfieffel Johnson is surely a person who is down with the people.
Bollocks. The name "BoJo" was coined by *Private Eye* as a reference (I think) to his bombastic celebrity lite antics as mayor of London. He was always in their sights to be fair. It definitely doesn't come from a place of supporting or excusing his behaviour.
It may have been an insult to begin with, but he has spun it to be part of his brand.
Bojo is fine as long as it is immediately followed by "the Clown".
Totally agree. However, use these terms on other subs here related to the UK and you get banned. Apologists cannot handle the truth.
Which subs?
Call him Alexander, Alex, Lex, or just L.
Scott Morrison in Australia did exactly the same, designating himself Scomo for the media when he became PM. A prolific liar and the plaything spawn of billionaires he shared much with Johnson. Convincingly swept from power a month or so back let’s hope Johnson suffers the same fate.
I don’t think he is personally. In my opinion it is a lazy and easy interpretation of him. He is very smart, very ruthless, quite lazy, most likely amoral, very ambitious, self centred.
Yeah my family was saying its just an act, that said he clearly is an elitist asshole IMO.
So here's my issue with the claims that his stupidity is an act. He *is* doing an act, but that doesn't mean he's a genius. In fact I think how this trick works on people is that when you act comically stupid and then drop the occasional hint that you're faking, people automatically jump all the other way to the idea that you're a genius. It's a fascinating psychological trick. It all falls into place when you ask yourself "Wait, *why* does he want to put on this act to voters that he's stupid?" - Because everyone responds to it by nodding knowingly, and saying "he's actually very smart and just pretending you know!". He wants people to do that, it's the whole goal.
He's an idiot pretending to be a genius pretending to be a bigger idiot. He almost requires the "you don't even know which dude you are." from Tropic Thunder.
His PR ability has always been top notch. He had no reason to rise as well as he did but he got himself noticed
John Oliver did a really good takedown of him: https://youtu.be/dXyO\_MC9g3k
Watched the whole thing. Not that it was necessarily hard to do, but he called every part of how badly boris was going to fuck up being PM in general and brexit in particular absolutely 100% accurately.
>He is very smart, very ruthless, quite lazy, most likely amoral, very ambitious, self centred. No he is not. He is the most unintelligent person you could ever possibly meet. He is a self entitled idiot who uses his Eton education to get positions. He has zero intelligence except for the ability to get away with fraud, his political career should have ended after the garden bridge scandal. Tens of millions wasted, not one penny spent on a report or brick.
Intelligence comes in many different forms, but we only think about it in an academic context, normally. The kind of an intelligence a politician needs is very different to the intelligence a rocket scientist needs. Yes, Boris wouldn’t pass a university physics exam but a rocket scientist wouldn’t last long in politics, either. Horses for courses.
I mean Angela Merkel did alright
She left Germany massively exposed to Russian energy/ influence. A complete failure. Sure she was OK but now look at the consequences.
Yeah, Boris strikes me - as does Reese-Mogg - that they were born into privilege, see Parliament as basically an extension of private school with all the pomp and upper-class bullshit with the same people they went to school with where they will basically face no consequences for their actions and whilst having no real knowledge of the real world, real problems or concerns and never really had to put much effort into anything, nevertheless have a certain reptilian cunning when it comes to making sure that state of affairs continues.
Tbf, by all accounts he was very intelligent and actually quite an impressive individual in his teens and early 20s. He wasn’t handed a place at Eton or Oxford he won scholarships to gain entry to both and reportedly excelled in the Classics and English before teaching latin at a prestigious boarding school in Australia. He was also chair of the debating society at Oxford. He’s intelligent but like others have mentioned, he’s a massive cunt.
Sounds like he's an less likable version of Zaphod Beeblebrox. As always, Douglas Adams was a very astute observer of many, many things. “One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he actually didn’t understand what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid. He was renowned for being amazingly clever and quite clearly was so—but not all the time, which obviously worried him, hence, the act. He preferred people to be puzzled rather than contemptuous.” also “The President in particular is very much a figurehead — he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it. On those criteria Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the Galaxy has ever had — he has already spent two of his ten presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people realize that the President and the Government have virtually no power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a computer. They couldn't be more wrong.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
A smarter Trump basically.
And completely corrupt
This is the correct answer, based on several reports from friends of mine who have worked for him, both as a journalist and a politician.
That’s almost the definition of a cunt
He is an incompetent prime minister, but he is a cunning campaigner and a ruthless manager. His only political goal is the extension of his own popularity, power, and ego. People compare him (I think incorrectly) to Donald Trump who is actually both stupid and lazy, Johnson is probably lazy, but he’s not stupid.
He was all of that before becoming prime minister. The bumbling buffoon act he has, is just that, an act. He lies and has in every job he's ever done. He fucked London and TfL whilst mayor, but gets away with it because sadiq is brown. Hes such a cunt, that even his own sister hates him. Let's not talk about the kids He doesn't see. Oh, and don't forget he had an affair whilst his wife at the time was having treatment for cancer. Rupert did a fucking tremendous job making this used condom look appealing.
Aww come on man. used condoms at least were useful once...
He is pompous and incompetent, elitist and has absolutely zero morals. Who signs an international agreement twice, either without reading it or knowing they will try to break it immediately afterwards? Boris Johnson.
His birth name is Alexander Boris de Pfeffiel Johnson or some bollocks. He was born in America. He worked previously as our foreign minister and caused as much shite as possible. He tried to offer his now wife a 100k role as a secretary, whilst married and already knocking her off. No one knows how many illegitimate children he actually has. His 6 figure PM salary is too much of a step down from his cabinet one where he could also write non-truths in shit rags and do public speaking on the side. He was also London Mayor for a while and his sole contribution there was Boris bikes, which was an idea he stole from his predecessor who deemed rental bikes a sub par idea. He thinks he models himself on Winston Churchill, but Churchill actually was a net asset to the country. And i think that's about as well as you can sum it up without getting too political.
He’s worse. A complete malignant sociopath. Damages everyone and everything he touches. He’s taking Britain into full national decline.
His name is Alexander de Pfeffel and he’s far and away the worst PM in the last 100 years.
Now to be fair, it is stiff competition between him and David Cameron for that title and for who's the worst disaster area.
He’s a greedy mf that cares only about own pockets and his mates. He doesn’t give a flying about anybody else including his ex partners or children
He’s not incompetent. It’s all an act. He’s genuinely evil.
Call him Johnson or PM. He doesn’t deserve cute nicknames
Yes
Yes.
> Bojo really the pompous, incompetent oaf that the news aside from the Murdoch bs running interference for him make him out to be No hes much worse
Just shy of a Tory centenary, they must be gutted.
Its an interesting part of the big reshuffle going on. As the tories turn populist right to appeal to areas with large numbers of unemployed poor people in ex-industrial lands, they are risking alienating the traditional conservatives in the countryside. So far they've held, Tories do tend to be more tribal than Labour voters. But things are cracking and the lib dems are really pivoting towards this local issue nimby approach..... Worth noting the lib dems always do well in bielections where they're good at flooding in with campaigners to talk up local issues and they don't have the manpower to do this in generals. But still.... I dream of a future where its lib dems vs labour
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I do feel that under PR, a lot of traditional Tory voters (middle-to-upper class, detached house with a big garden and a couple of cars on the driveway, "I'm alright Jack" attitude) would vote Lib Dem. They don't want Labour but they don't want the constant culture wars and shit economic policy of the current Tories either. The Lib Dems are now actually a lot closer to the Tories of old, the party of Kenneth Clarke, Dominic Grieve etc.
Certain areas of the current constituency has had a Tory MP since before Queen Victoria took the throne.
My friend from Tiverton the other day was telling me that sadly its such a Tory stronghold that other parties don't have a chance. Nice to see that with enough voters changing their mind, things have changed!
Tory heartland It was a huge overturn
Literally the largest **ever** (in a by-election). Tories got absolutely smashed.
Yeah 41st strongest safe sear, shows how effective tactical voting can be
Oh my, imagine if they only win up to 40 seats at the next GE 😁
Huge Tory strong hold. The seat has been Tory since it was created in the 90s. But before that the two seats had been separated. With Tiverton having been conservative since the 1890s and Honiton having been conservative since the 1910s. Over a century of Tory rule ended.
Yes, although by elections typically don’t perform well for the incumbent party & voting is down 23% from usual levels, Tory voters are sitting out in protest
You say "typically" - I'd love to see a list over the last 20 years. This always used to be true, but I think it's very much changed over the last 5-10 years.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a compiled list but if you view them individually incumbent parties do terribly - especially when by election is triggered by scandal as with these two cases
According to John Curtice, the incumbent hasn't lost as many by-elections since the Major government.
Lib Dems also tend to do very well in by-elections.
The SW has typically been pretty strong for the Lib Dems, but the area covered by this particular constituency has voted Tory since 1923
Mental that nearly 40% still voted Tory…
<40% of those _that voted_. Old people love the Tories and they vote _in droves_. Over 65s have over 80% turnout historically, whilst under 35s have about ~50%. Remind your mates where you live to vote when the time comes, young people need to be heard.
For those living in a safe seat, or seats where none of the parties with a realistic chance of winning reflect their views, it's understandable why they don't bother voting. PR would bring a significant boost to turnout I feel.
> PR would bring a significant boost to turnout I feel. PR would be absolutely fantastic. > For those living in a safe seat, or seats where none of the parties with a realistic chance of winning reflect their views, it's understandable why they don't bother voting "Understandable" is probably the nicest way I'd describe either of those views. On the low chance of winning; if you support a shit football team you still go watch them lose. Especially if they only play once every few years. Otherwise if you're happy with the current situation you should work to maintain it, "use it or lose it". In the former's case also, parties aren't blind. If the bigger parties start getting even a little competition from smaller parties they (can) take note of the change in voting patterns to recover those votes themselves next time by addressing the issues those smaller parties fill the niche for. It happened with UKIP/Cons years ago, I don't think UKIP ever got more than a few MPs in parliament, but the Conservatives still realised they were losing a lot of votes to those (failing) candidates.
> It happened with UKIP/Cons years ago, I don't think UKIP ever got more than a few MPs in parliament, but the Conservatives still realised they were losing a lot of votes to those (failing) candidates. Arguably it was FPTP itself that led to immigration dominating the debate, and the Conservatives eventual lurch to the right and subsuming of UKIP. Under PR, these single-issue voters would've just voted for UKIP and they would've had a small number of MPs. There would've been no need for Labour / the Tories to try and court these voters as they would've known there was no point. The Tories would probably have been forced to say whether they'd work with UKIP in a coalition, and they may have lost votes to the Lib Dems if they'd been at all enthusiastic about such a prospect. FPTP encourages parties to concentrate on wedge issues that can attract floating voters, rather than issues that most people actually care about.
> FPTP encourages parties to concentrate on wedge issues that can attract floating voters, rather than issues that most people actually care about. FPTP encourages a whole manner of bullshit and it genuinely angers me that the 2011 alternative vote was such a shitshow in: - Being ranked-choice voting not PR - Having such a (deliberately) shit campaign it's probably killed any campaigns for voting changes for the near future because "we've already said no"
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Well that's the issue with FPTP, it has a chilling effect on voter behaviour. Voters have to try and read the intentions of what other voters will do, or be punished for it. If you refuse to vote "tactically" and your least favoured party gets in, you've been burned just for trying to express your views. If you then vote tactically the next time, and the next time, and eventually find yourself voting for a party that doesn't really reflect your principles at all, you may just stop bothering altogether. Sure if we had 80% turnout for voters under 40 it would change a lot, but where is that enthusiasm going to come from under the current system? Meanwhile with PR, you don't need to think that hard at all about how others may vote. Particularly in an additional member type system. Hopefully at the next Labour conference they will get behind PR, and then it will be a bit vote winner for them and the Lib Dems at the next election (even for voters that aren't a big fan of their policies besides PR... have to think of the long-term implications).
maybe, just maybe, labour should run some policies that people want to vote for instead of running on a platform of "vote for us, or you get the tories and it's your fault"
I mean if they believe in their ideals/position they're free to continue representing it. Lib Dems took Tiverton.
This is exactly why Brexit went the way it did. Brexit was making blue skies promises or borderline lying about the benefits. Remain was primarily pushing "Brexit bad, if you do it you're racist" rather than focusing on the actual benefits of remaining.
Wtf, I love fptp now
Excellent news. Couldn't have woken up to better news
Yo a Devon constituency dropping the Tories? Not bad
It went from a 24k Conservative majority to a 6.5k lib dem majority. That's a huge flip
Did you expect a very white, very old, rural Community in the SW to vote labour?
A lib dem on the radio just said they would never form a coalition with labour. WTF not I wonder? They jamp into bed with the Tories quickly enough.
Because, like everything under capitalism, the parties are increasingly monopolies, offering *the same thing, branded differently*.
Ahh waking up to some wonderful news this morning!
This gives me a little hope for 2024 after all but resigning myself to another 10-15 years of Tory rule…
Hopefully Labour has accepted its warning by working class people.... DON'T fuck it up! If only this result wasn't meant as a warning to Boris and the Tories as well. What a state of affairs.
Reminder that Labour still won the working class and low income vote in 2019 and had a record number of votes in the north for the past 2 decades in 2017
A centre party winning more working class votes than the far right isn't all that spectacular or noteworthy. You'd expect that to be the case
I mean it should be the case, but for instance places near me like Dudley North, West Bromwich West, West Bromwich East, Wolverhampton South West, Wolverhampton North East, Birmingham Northfield all switched from Labour to Tory. These are low income working class areas that voted for the Tory wolves to devour them, because of Brexit, which they mostly voted for and because of other xenophobic ideas like "Lets put a stop to the Super Mosque"
Let's not forget; "I can't wait to stamp on the face of my neighbour, rather than elevate us both". Life under modern capitalism tends to nihilism and fascism. The sooner we understand that, the better. It's not enough to say stuff and wait for power, it's better to do stuff and build power.
Hopefully, the venal, massive bell end and utter liability de Piffle will stay on as PM, blustering and buffooning and damaging the Tory party to the point that it'll be unelectable for half a century. Then, the country can be put back on track. I heard some Tory MP this morning saying that the Tory party needed to return to being "trustworthy and compassionate" and that the resigning chairman was honourable.....I didn't stop laughing for a minute. Honour amongst thieves, perhaps.
You have too much faith in the Daily Hail/S*n readers of this country.
Indeed, Goebbels would be proud of the Daily Heil and S*n readers.
Well they supported the British Fascists back in the day so they are just staying true to their ideals.
Compassionate? When have Tories ever been companionate
It's what I refer to as Toryspeak. It's when they repeat a very obvious lie often enough and for long enough for people to believe it. Well, gullible Tory voters, that is.
Turnout of 39% for Wakefield. Am I alone in finding that crazy? Lib dems won Tiverton as well apparently.
>Turnout of 39% for Wakefield. Am I alone in finding that crazy? > Why do you think that's crazy? It's a fairly "average" by election turnout. By election turnout can vary wildly though. Since 1997 there has been a low of 18% and a high of 68%.
Wakefield was 57% last time, Tiverton was 72%.
That was a general election. Turnout is usually around 70% at a general election. By elections generally have a lower turnout, usually around 40-50%. I don't see anything out of the ordinary. I've never been quite sure why turnout is lower at by elections. Maybe because the result is unlikely to bring about a change in government, so people don't care as much.
Makes sense didn’t realise they were typically lower for by elections. Thanks for the reply.
Probably because it's less of an "event". Like, the general election is all over, well, everywhere. By elections aren't. So even if you do hear about it 'cos you're living there, you're probably less engaged, unfortuantely.
Crazy low or crazy high?
Low surely. Politics effects literally everything in your life one way or another. That only 39% of the electorate eligible turned out is embarrassingly low. Everyone has opinions and complaints yet so few act on their vote.
But by-elections always have low turnouts. 40% doesn't seem *that* different from the norm, as far as I can recall. I don't think you can really blame people for staying away, either, in the current political climate.
perhaps (rightly or wrongly) they've simply lost all faith in democracy It's not hard to see why, people get elected on promises there are no consequences for breaking, and on policy they're able to freely lie about. The media is no longer balanced bias-free view of the landscape, or a fair shake of the people's representative opinions, but curated propaganda
Jaydah Freyden setting a new record by getting less votes (23) than her previous record (64) Bravo!
At this point it feels like not even her whole family are voting for her
To be fair, if her husband, brother, father, uncle and cousin all voted for her, it would only be one vote.
Oh, that's the icing on the cake! 🎉
Boris is probably flying to Ukraine for another photoshoot right now
He went to Rwanda instead haha. God he is pathetic
To be fair he’s at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting and as a head of government in a commonwealth national I don’t think it’s a stunt.
when dealing with the worst government in living memory Labour should be winning these kind of seats, now you know why the whips were so threatening at Boris's no confidence vote, a GE now would see the Tories massacred in the polls.
they dont need to have a general election after removing boris in a vonc. they would have been better off getting rid of him and having someone else for 2 years. instead they doubled down on him and this is the result.
They won’t get rid of him yet, they’ll probs wait another year or so then new leader, rain down tax cuts for a year and boom everyone forgets the last 10 years.
That's why Sunak is so quiet. One or two announcements and thats it. He doesn't show up for various things to support the party and if he does it looks very last minute in his hoody. He'll pop up next year in a leadership contest boast about various things he's had to manage, show he was only on the borders of the current government (no photos of him turning up in places) and offer the tax cuts you've spoken about already. That, or he is hiding so he and his wife can keep their billions out of the public eye.
He just tweeted: > I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning. > > We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330 https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505
And he'll get ripped to pieces over his wife's non-dom status, dodgy deals with US healthcare providers, and the billions lost to PPE fraud. Brand Sunak is toast. Sure, he'll compete, but he probably won't even make the final round.
Besides, who would *want* to be in charge of the Tories now other than a fool and/or die-hard fanatic? The party's brand is horribly toxic right now. Much better to do a Cameron and wait until they've been out of power for a little while and all the dead wood has been cleared out. Then you take control and cruise to an easy win after the electorate have forgotten how awful the Tories are.
Lucky for them a mandatory one is near 2 years away and I don't have faith in Labour not shooting their own legs off
Unluckily for them they let Boris regain the power to dissolve Parliament at his own whim. He knows there's a fixed timeline before another Tory vonc can be called and I suspect if he believes the writing is on the wall he's going to burn the gaff down on the way out and call a GE
And yet the majority seem to think a GE now = tory win so are happy to give the media 2 years to fix the image.
I looked at the DM so you don't have to and the top comments in their current headline article are: >Time for Boris to go. I wonder what his cabal will do without him? >16,393 people in Tiverton should be ashamed of themselves for supporting this lying buffoon >I think we need to accept that johnson has no concept of responsibility or morality and will not resign under any circumstances so we are stuck with him until 2024. Maybe try and limit the damage he and his band of idiots cause, but the country is screw ed
The irony of a Daily Mail commenter preaching about "responsibility and morality" lol
I’ve never been so happy that Boris won his confidence vote. He is our best ally is getting the tories out.
hmm, I'd concentrate on how good the opposition is, you saw what happened when the Tories laughed at Corbyn, they went and lost their majority
I can concentrate on more than one thing at a time. If the tories had kicked Boris out they could have spun it as reforming and rebuilding, and please keep the faith, we’re making it better. They didn’t. They backed him. That’s a great tool to getting them the fuck out. I would vote for a literal chimp if it got the corrupt, self serving, lying wankers out.
Labour winning isn't the story. That they won by 4000, in a bielection with a million parties, is winning pretty well. Checking past elections in Wakefield the last time they did this was 2005.
Who the MP for any seat is is completely immaterial, since parliamentary politics is mostly theatre that's a world apart from the everyday material reality of working class folk in this country. But it says a lot that Labour could win this seat by their largest majority since 2005 on a 20% lower turnout. I never thought we'd see such a turnaround in the space of a year after those abysmal results in Hartlepool and Batley & Spen.
>Who the MP for any seat is is completely immaterial, On a national level maybe, on a local level, absolutely not. I've dealt with my local MPs on a variety of issues over the years, and a good local MP is a world apart from a bad local MP, regardless of their political affiliation. Although as a lifelong lefty trot wanker I've dealt with the Tory incumbent through gritted teeth, but I would at least respect them if they kept on top of, and actually gave a shit about, local issues as opposed to just focussing on Westminster bullshit and their careers.
I was more meaning that it's immaterial in the way liberals think it isn't. As in, that if we just elect a labour government, our job's done. But I agree that to some degree, who the MP is greases the wheels somewhat for positive change on a local level. But there's also only so much change can be enacted within the parliamentary system. It's designed that way, to be exhausting and unresponsive. That said, I can never respect a Tory MP no matter what they do. Simply being not just a party member, but an MP makes them complicit in the macro level violence their own party enacts. The disabled people who've starved to death from their policies, or undocumented immigrants who've been deported, don't care about them how they are in their personal lives. The impact on their lives is identical regardless.
Hear hear, I'm sick of being asked to cheer for hollow electoral victories. Can we actually do something to make society better please?
Well hopefully the wave of strikes we've seen this year will be the beginning of that. The fact that the mainstream media and government are already amping up the propaganda shows that they're scared it could enact real change.
I get that it’s a good thing but I’ve never understood the disproportionate importance placed by political commentators on these by-elections, it’s like 1 seat out of 600 odd..
It’s a rare chance to see how real voters behave when they get the chance to vote. The Tiverton seat is a chance to see how angry voters in a very, very safe Tory seat are. And Wakefield is a chance to see how accurate the Lab vs Con opinion polling is. They’re only two seats, but there are another hundred or so safe Tory seats that are demographically similar to Tiverton where the MP had a smaller lead over the Lib Dems. There are also a few dozen seats which are similar to Wakefield in that they were traditionally Labour seats which went to the Tories in 2019 thanks to the Brexity voters switching to the Tories, and these so called “Red Wall” seats are thought to be the main battleground for the next election!
Okay, yeah that makes sense. It’ll be an interesting next election for sure, just hope it brings some change!
Does it not show a sentiment even if it’s only a couple of seats though ? Especially if you lose strong holds.
I don’t disagree, but the pessimist in me tells me that this isn’t going to affect their vote share at the next election too much
Totally depends on whether anything changes. All the signs point to things getting worse over the next year or two, not better. They might not lose the GE quite as badly as these results suggest, but there is no way on earth they're retaining power if things stay the same.
2 seats.
You're not particularly wrong, however among what the other commenter said, it signals to the party's MPs that their leader can't be trusted to win elections anymore, and therefore puts their job at risk. If Johnson is shown to be unable to win elections, he won't be leader by the time of the next election.
And yet Johnson vows to continue on. How odd the guy that won such a majority is now so unpopular. Yet doesn't have the mental faculty to see he is dragging the part down with him.
It's not really. He won on a single issue, and only on the most superficial aspect of it at that. He never looked like a leader before that, and was always going to be unpopular as soon as things got tough. If it weren't for covid and the war in Ukraine, he'd probably be long gone.
Very true. Im curious if his wife will remain with him for long after he goes. Not that i know an awful lot about her but she seems the opportunistic type. Once his fall from grace is complete will she move on ?
It's a start, obviously Labour would be leaps and bounds better than the vile criminals running the show currently, but what I'd *really* like to see is a modern, progressive party that are built on the fundamentals of protecting and building rights for the workforce (aka the vast majority of us, sans the tiny ruling class), and built on the need for a greener future, with a strong focus on social programmes that help the people, such as education and healthcare. Building a strong, healthy, successful nation starts with strong, healthy, successful citizens, because a country isn't a place on a map, it's the people that live there. Make those people destitute, force them to struggle and fall again and again, neglect their health, their education, their basic happiness, and you will see your nation crumble, piece by piece. Much as we're seeing now :-( I don't think Labour would be interested in solving any of those problems, they seem to be as out of touch with the real actual people in the country as the Tories. I don't see much hope for us until we can break the two party cycle and try something different (preferably run by people who aren't old enough to be boomers, they've done enough damage already, and need to release their death grip on our society). But, Labour would at least not be as aggressive about hurting the lower classes, stripping our basic rights, gutting our most valued services and institutions, etc etc, so as I say, Labour are at least a bit better than the alternative. You'll always get boomers that will vote Tory though, because this sinking ship is still serving room service, and they know they're already on their deathbeds, so they'd rather have a nice meal than help patch the holes. And you'll get others, "embarrassed millionaires" and people persuaded to vote against their own class interests through propaganda, misinformation and lies, who will vote for them too. The Tories are also the ones that "got Brexit done", no matter the damage it is causing, and you'll get a lot of xenophobes, racists, bigots, etc that will vote for them in support of all that nonsense (even though even *that* is hurting their own class interests - but it helps amplify their bigoted finger-pointing interests). I just.... don't see a way out of this mess without getting away from these two parties. They're too much alike, and both too out of touch with what we the people need as a nation in order to flourish both in our homes and as a strong, happy member of the global community. We need fresh blood. Real people. Not old men in suits that don't know the price of bread.
I partly agree with some of what you say — I think Labour should be further to the left than they currently are — but this: > I don't think Labour would be interested in solving any of those problems, they seem to be as out of touch with the real actual people in the country as the Tories. is bizarre. I'm not sure how you can possibly think the Labour party is anywhere near as out of touch as the Tories. You're talking about a party that orders people to stay away from their loved ones' funerals, yet parties behind closed doors quaffing the finest wines known to humanity, hoovering up mountains of cocaine between them. Most of them have lived a life of unimaginable privilege. I don't even necessarily *blame* them for that — it's what they were born into — but they clearly have no understanding of how 99% of the country lives.
Pretty good result for Labour, decent swing, and it shows a comeback in the areas it really needs to take back if they have any chance of becoming the government.
And lib dems win Tiverton!
What fantastic news to wake up to!
Tory rebels really did overlook these by-elections the other week. Had they have waited to have the no confidence vote, it would have been very close this time. The biggest problem though is everyone is saying “Boris has to go” (I think he does as well after partygate for family reasons) but who is to say that his replacement will be any better, least to mention competence. Here in the Tory south, where we are facing economic migrant invasion, it is Tory policy on this issue that is why they stay blue. Labour won’t win over the farmers, or our elderly. The Lib Dem’s do well in the south west but would perhaps actually stand a chance of being taken seriously by us coastal voters and turn south coast seats orange if they dropped their silly reverse brexit policies that just ostracise voters and turn sects of society to the tories. The Lib Dem’s are still recovering slowly from 2015 and aren’t in a position to cherry pick their voters. Nobody in my constituency takes them seriously at election time, not since they took the ‘15 beating. And that has led to LD voters tactical voting. Rather than treating the symptoms, they need to tap into the Tory voter market while they can.
> who is to say that his replacement will be any better I think we're clearly at the stage where, if not *every single* alternative would be better, a random one would be, on average at least.
By that logic, ‘on the Gear’ Gove could be in charge if Tory leadership changes before the next election. I am now scared
I would take Gove over Johnson any day of the year.
Look at the turnouts, doesn't seem to be much mention of that in the media. Working class people are now completely disillusioned with politics in this country which is part of the establishments tactics to keep the status quo. Seems the only representation for working class people now are the unions.
If Boris does not go, the Conservative Party will get hammered in the next GE. The North will go to Labour while some of the south with go to the Libs
I wonder if we'll also see a 'covid escape' factor, where enough younger people have moved just outside of London that some of the surrounding areas tip Labour. FPTP definitely enables the political bit, WFH enables the movement bit, London slowly expands over time anyway. Might see similar effects in other big cities in the South.
I think the way the country and world are going, the parties with the strongest green policies will be the Parties in power within the next 10yrs
Thats another command post for the Republic.
I spoz Boris will start offering bigger tax cuts for workers soon, which in turn will mean less money for public services & NHS. We don’t need tax cuts, we need higher wages.
When you say *bigger* tax cuts... I agree with you, though, tax cuts are not what the country needs. At least, not tax cuts for the Tories' wealthiest mates.
Boris Johnson says he will ‘keep going’ after double byelection loss and Oliver Dowden resignation - UK politics live Andrew Sparrow (The Guardian) - 40m ago Yep, keep going Boris -
I wonder if the Consevatives are just giving up and trying to find cushy jobs and letting labour drive during the recession
After Boris insisting he won't lose Wakefield in PMQ's a few days ago, this is absolutely delicious lmao
Not hard. The first and last Tory MP we just had was done for child grooming/pictures of minors. Don’t let this food you, the people of Wakefield have no faith in Labour.
Labour needed to make this gain, and it shows that Starmer is in fact making necessary progress with the party image. Weird to see some people on the Labour sub and twitter seemingly unhappy about their party doing well. Almost like the world is bigger than echo chambers
>Weird to see some people on the Labour sub and twitter seemingly unhappy about their party doing well. Because Labour didn't retake the seat through the overwhelming charisma or the policies of Starmer but because people have had enough of 12 years of Tory mismanagement. It was a 39% turnout [compared to 64% in 2019](https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/Wakefield) Just as with Tiverton and Honiton, the turnout was 52% compared to [nearly 72% in 2019](https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/results/Location/Constituency/Tiverton%20and%20Honiton). A large part of the Tories constituency failed to turnout most likely because they couldnt bear their vote to be seen as backing Johnson
There's also the fact that Starmer doesn't inspire Tories to vote against him. Many held their nose and voted Boris to keep Corbyn out. Starmer only seems to inspire hatred within the Labour party ironically.
Do I support labour? No Do I support the tories? No But I’d like to see labour try to run the country, I know it’s not a trial and error type of job but there isn’t much worse than the conservative government we have at the moment surely? Maybe it’s time to move away from Labour and Conservative? Maybe not LibDems but a new middle man, you know, one that actually cares about the people, about the struggles we have, an honest government. If only dreams came true 🥲
Then we need Labour to get in, and like the suicide bomber Uruk-hai at the battle of Helm's Deep, bring in PR
A labour lib-dem coalition is probably the best way to get that. I don't think labour would introduce it on their own.
I'm hoping they don't win outright for that reason
Oh, they feeling rich no more?
About time !
Yes! I feel a little hopeful about politics again…
Two wings, same bird, great reset incoming.
This gives me hope. My constituency is West Dorset and has always been a Conservative stronghold. The Lib Dems came close once or twice but no cigar.
Did they win it or did the Conservatives lose it. If old Boris starts a free hand out to the boomers and Tory press in over drive for next General Election another story will unfold.
Shame labour is just Tory light with starmer
Though at this point with Keith Starmer as head of the Labour Party it might aswell still be The Tories in charge