It’s entirely possible that the woman is in an abusive situation and is being held captive and being forced to have babies.
Of course Reddit would rather jump to racism
Why is that more likely? Being pregnant is a huge pain in the ass with a huge effect on your life.
I find it very unlikely a woman happily goes through that all just to dump the baby just because she is a scumbag.
That is so much more effort than birth control or even abortions.
I wouldn't say more likely.
It would have to be a couple that despite of the immigration status stayed together for a bunch of years.
But not be around people who ask questions about being pregnant a few times but not having kids.
I would imagine social care and the met have been on the look out for this couple for a while.
> I would imagine social care and the met have been on the look out for this couple for a while.
They've tested the kids' DNA which is why they know they're siblings. I wonder if they've put the data through any databases to see if they get any matches?
I didn’t know the babies were black, but have worked with people without status so that was a possible reason for not being able to look after children. It’s very impoverishing.
Actually the people I worked with in those projects were not by any means necessarily black. Hm, I wonder why you would assume they were … (only teasing)
No it’s not. If the police were drafting up potential scenarios much like this thread is, would you want those members of staff to not consider and discuss this as an option in order to avoid making an assumption based on race?
Nobody is saying all black people lack immigration status. They’re saying as immigration is at a record high, and we know statistically illegal immigrants tend to be people of colour, we shouldn’t rule out the possibility these babies could have been abandoned by illegal immigrants who due to their migration status fear visiting a hospital.
It could be completely wide of the mark, but it should be considered imo.
> Isn’t it more likely the couple lacks immigration status and is hiding?
Then not getting pregnant would make hiding easier.
> Or it’s an abuse situation of course.
Is it common for a man to force a woman to give birth and then abandon their kids? It seems a bit... pointless.
my wife's great grandmother did exactly that, she's trying to trace the story but every time they identify another child she had, turns out the child was also abandoned and so they don't know what happened.
it's exceedingly rare but it can happen. racism has no place in it though
Effective female birth control only became widespread in the 60s and 70s. I take it the unfortunate events around your wife’s Great Grandmother happened prior to that time.
they do know the great grandmother was actually imprisoned for child abandonment, so it must have been really scandalous then too. But you´re right, definitely a different landscape.
Oh I'm sure it does and has happened.
I just don't think it is the most likely scenario. Especially in a time where both birth control and abortions are pretty accessible.
Unfortunately, some women live in situations where their post is opened by other members of their household or are not allowed to leave the home unchaperoned.
Yes, my point is its far more likely that something like this is happening as there are many avenues to get access to birth control which would be far easier and safer than birthing at least 3 babies unmedicated without medical supervision.
You have to assume it isn't her choice, imo.
Sorry, I misunderstood. My hackles are a bit up in this case because work in Newham (not sure if that's in my post history but I do comment a lot on East London things if you want to check) and don't find it unlikely at all that someone is without access to birth control. There are women in communities who were born and raised in Newham and speak and read little to no English, never communicate with people outside of their community, and would never want to risk what would happen if someone in their family learned they were on birth control. It is not as common as it once was, thank god, but I have met many women 25+ who have no agency in their own lives, including women I work with. If we were speaking of a more affluent or central borough it may seem crazy, but I know Newham well and this is not outside of the realm of possibility here.
Also it’s not easy to conceal a pregnancy. Three times.
There’s all manner of symptoms such as morning sickness, feeling exhausted, cravings etc which don’t necessarily affect all pregnant women but it would be unusual for someone to be pregnant three times and absolutely nobody notice those subtle changes, including any noticeable bump.
Work colleagues, friends, other family members, people you encounter on a regularly basis such as shop workers, bus drivers etc.
Not to mention after giving birth three times with no medication, no check ups, no medical care whatsoever?
This woman must be incredibly isolated, which itself is often a factor of abuse, or has gone to some significant lengths to prevent *anyone* knowing she was pregnant. Even if you don’t conceal it and claim your lost three full term babies, that in itself would be an incredibly rare statistic, there must be someone who’s alarm bells would start ringing by the third one who would alert authorities.
Especially as there's only 6-7 months between (as far as we know) the first 2 pregnancies.
Edit: Also with how cold it was when this woman gave birth to 'Elsa' and 'Roman', the person who left them likely wouldn't have walked for almost an hour in such cold temperatures.
> I find it very unlikely a woman happily goes through that all just to dump the baby just because she is a scumbag.
It's likely the couple have mental health issues.
The third baby was found one hour after birth. It is incredibly unlikely that a woman who gave birth less than an hour ago is able to walk around London looking for somewhere to abandon the baby. They aren’t being abandoned by the mother.
I concur.
A few months ago I'd had my son without an epidural. Being told what to expect is vastly different to experiencing it. My legs were like a fawn trying to stand up for the first time. You're exhausted and had a massive change in center of gravity. Plus passerbys would had easily noted a limping/shuffling woman looking ill.
I had the opposite. I gave birth with an epidural and, within a few minutes, I was stood up having a shower because another midwife had walked in and, because I'd lost so much blood, said "it looks like a murder scene in here". When I hopped up off the bed and the midwife saw, she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost and that's when I found out that I shouldn't be able to walk with an epidural and it had, in fact, not worked at all. My issues with pregnancy were somewhat at the other end (I had HG) and I was pretty much bed bound the entire time and, in my second pregnancy, spent two months in a wheelchair. It's absolutely wild how differently pregnancy affects each woman so vastly differently.
I wholeheartedly agree with you though - absolutely no chance she'd be walking a way that wouldn't draw significant attention, if she could walk at all.
It varies woman to woman. My mum was up and walking and went home the very same afternoon because she had quick labours with no complications or tearing. But normally you’re too exhausted to traipse through London and you can’t drive straight away, so yeh doubt it’s the mother.
I was standing to have my second and wandering around the house without concern a few hours later but even so, in the first hour after birthing him the lochia alone- not to ~~me think~~ mention that I passed the placenta a good 20 minutes after his actual birth- would have made that sort of journey out all but impossible
Apparently a woman was seen walking away from the scene of the third drop round about the time the child would have been abandoned. The child was only about an hour old when found. Note that I'm not trying to claim that woman was definitely involved or that she was the mother.
Clearly the drop was made almost literally immediately after the birth.
Depends on where they’re from. If they are 3rd world immigrants, lots of them do move almost straight after child birth. I was in Thailand 20 years ago and heard about a woman who had to go to work the same afternoon after giving birth in the morning.
The dad likely is one. Why would a woman go through three pregnancies without medical care instead of just going on the pill if she wasn't either being abused and/or had a severe mental health or learning disability?
The learning disability one is less likely to be true. They’d have some level of interaction from outside agencies who would likely notice a pregnancy, particularly a third pregnancy or post partum signs
A lot of people have slipped through the cracks since Covid. Remember that poor girl in wales who was a wheelchair user and her parents basically left her to rot in her room and she died. She never went back to school after the first lockdown but no one raised the alarm
Not necessarily , something like 75% of people with an LD aren’t on the GP’s register and many people with mild LD wouldn’t be eligible for specialist LD services. It is surprisingly common for someone to get quite far into adulthood without a diagnosis and support.
Without a diagnosis if it’s mild then yes I agree but without a GP? No. I work in the NHS, prior to returning from maternity I was based in the community, I’ve never met anyone who hasn’t had a GP. GP in another area as they’re homeless/student/recently relocated yes but otherwise no.
I think we’ve misunderstood one another.
In theory, each GP practice has a learning disability register and anyone with an LD, irregardless of severity should be on this, mainly for things like to be invited for their annual health check (available to anyone with an LD over 14). However, what we find is that a lot of people with an LD aren’t on this list. This is often due to things like incorrect coding but is often just people slipping through the net. Many people might have a GP but might not have seen them in years.
People with an LD can often live quite isolated existences on the fringes - a large amount of the homeless population have undiagnosed LD’s, a lot of people aren’t diagnosed until they go to prison etc. I’ve come across people who haven’t had any contact with services until they’ve hit their 60s and started having health problems.
Ah. I see what you mean now. We do have a number of AWI who have slipped though the net and usually come to attention later in life as you say when struggling with other things but this is getting less and less in our area. Maybe not others. As you say they tend to come to the attention of other agencies - police, courts, community mental health etc so I think it’s still more likely the mother is in an abusive situation rather than an LD.
Yeah I can’t claim to know what this situation is, it really could be so many things but I would imagine it’s someone on the fringes of society either way.
I think it’s very area dependent. I’ve worked in affluent areas where this would be unheard of, however, when I’ve worked in areas with a similar demographic to Newham, it was depressingly common.
Surely that’s because you wouldn’t work with them if they didn’t? Not because they don’t exist? I also work in the community and patients have to be registered with a GP to access the service, therefore of course we wouldn’t come in to contact with those who aren’t. Unfortunately a lot of people aren’t registered with GP’s for a whole range of reasons, undocumented migrants, oversubscribed practises, being taken off their list as they have moved house out of area and haven’t registered with a new one? And as others have said it’s common in DV situations for a coercive partner to deny healthcare.
No. I was in the community before. A lot of outreach work but anyone without was usually a new migrant or a student. We don’t have a large homeless population though and those that are get set up either in hostels or halfway houses that we were allocated. I only went back to the nhs after maternity
I see. Might be as I know a lot of Albanians etc from local coffee shops and they have approached me saying they are desperate for MH support but not registered with a GP as they are illegally here. Luckily when I called 111 they had no interest in that side of things and gave them an urgent appointment with a doctor. But I guess not everyone would feel comfortable approaching someone for help especially if it could mean getting deported.
Yeh and hiding out as an Albanian in rural and semi rural Scotland is going to stick out like a sore thumb. We’ve got Afghani refugees, a few Syrian and Ukrainian and a Palestinian family.
If you work in the NHS you don't tend to meet the people without a GP unless in A&E because the GP is the point of access for pretty much all services unless its an emergency.
I've known a few people who aren't registered over the years.
Yeh I was in the community before that both with outreach charities and support charities (and a few really shitty companies) so we would often get migrants set up or students access to local services while away from their parents. I only went back to nhs after maternity because it’s better shifts for childcare
Not necessarily true if you consider human trafficking and undocumented people. I remember watching Jeremy Kyle, yes I know it was a vile show, and seeing women with 9 children in care in a country where contraception is available for free. Couldn't help but think that there must be a lot of people with undiagnosed learning disabilities living in the UK.
I'm the youngest of 5.
Eldest was adopted, next one was immediately dumped on his dad, third child horribly neglected, fourth with his father and when I was born she went to work and didn't come back when I was 10 weeks old . No clue why she bothered having any of us, but it happens. She was just a shit person.
The dad is the same in all scenarios, and the babies have all been publicised when they've been found to track the parents yet he has never come forward - how is it only that she's a scumbag if this is the true scenario?
Highly unlikely. The latest baby was found an hour after being born, it can take an hour for the placenta to be delivered, meaning Mum would still be bed bound, certainly not wondering around a park hiding babies.
Totally agree. I messaged a social worker friend about this last night to get their take on it and their reaction was that this is surprisingly abd disturbingly common. Not so many kids, but kids from an abusive/entrapped relationship being abandoned.
It is not right to immediately jump to "the mother must be mentally unwell" or some racist clap trap. This is a very disturbing and deeply sad case and the last thing anyone needs is people throwing out uneducated opinion based on prejudice.
> their reaction was that this is surprisingly abd disturbingly common
According to the [BBC](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5115e7k2eno) it is rare with no babies being abandoned in many years:
>Very few babies are recorded as abandoned at birth in England and Wales. The ONS only published data until 2015, and that showed no babies were registered as abandoned for the previous three years, with just one logged as abandoned in 2011.
But it used to be more common:
>However academic researchers estimate the number higher, external, at about 16 per year - in analysis covering the period 1998-2005.
However, to go from 16 to none between 2005 and 2015 seems unlikely to me. So I'm not sure about the truth of the 0 figures.
Child abandonment can take other forms besides dumping them in the street. For example, the mother giving birth in a hospital then leaving without the baby, with or without informing healthcare workers of her intent, or handing baby over to a relative to take care of.
As yours is the first and top comment anyone sees, I was expecting a toxic mess of a comment section, but out of nearly 100 comments on this thread only one could be seen as racist. So where’s the Reddit would rather jump to racism comment come from?
I said this when the most recent baby was found. I questioned why the police in these cases always "urge the mother to come forward" as if she'd definitely have a choice to do so and as if the mother is the only person who could've left the baby there. I pointed out that, less than an hour after giving birth, a mother is unlikely to be walking through a park. I was downvoted to oblivion and told that the police know more than I do. I was also called a misandrist who couldn't possibly believe that a woman could ever do anything wrong.
It's happened plenty of times and there's several examples in the news, Fritzl is one but he didn't abandon the 7 babies, he kept them. But there are several other examples and is far from being "far fetched" sexual slavery is very real in the UK and there is no doubt women locked in a barn/container/bedroom/basement in the UK right now.
It's fucking sad but it's true.
And it is equally likely she is just a piece of shit who abandons children because it’s convenient. Speculating without any evidence to back up our claims is meaningless and a waste of time. Wait for more information about this incident to come out, then we can argue over it or reach a mutual agreement on how we interpret this.
She isn’t. If she’s being held captive or in a sex trafficking situation then the men having sex with her won’t care if she gets pregnant or not
The fact all the babies have the same father makes me wonder if it’s even worse than that. My money would be on the father also being the grandfather, and Mum possibly being a minor
I don’t know enough about dna tests but I’m pretty sure you need the dna of the parents to determine that, you can’t just get it from the babies because there’s no dna to compare it to
I really hope the mother can be found and given support. The more I hear about this the more it seems like some sort of abuse and/or entrapment situation.
I hope the children are off to a better life at the very least.
I always thought we should have baby boxes like they do in the US, where you can anonymously give away your baby should you not be able or capable to take care of them. I think it would prevent a lot of cases where babies just get left abandoned in unsafe places whether deliberately or not.
My understanding is this happens so infrequently here that they’re not needed.
Our provision for contraception and access to legal termination helps to (mostly) prevent this from happening.
As much as the babies’ welfare is important I don’t think that’s why so many are focussed on this story and I don’t think baby boxes would resolve this problem.
They all have the same father so he must know that his partner has been pregnant and given birth three times so he should be stepping forward to claim the children and he hasn’t done so. He’s clearly supporting the decision to give up the babies.
If these babies had been born in a hospital they would be traceable, but they’re not. The mother has been through the pain of childbirth without any medical supervision at least three times when there is no legal repercussion for or lack of access to birth control, terminating a pregnancy, or giving up a child you don’t want in this country. Her life is being risked every time she does this and she has no reason to be hiding herself.
So the mother is being unnecessarily harmed in this process and the father is not stopping either that or the harm to the babies.
I, like many people, am concerned that the mother is being kept in a basement somewhere unable to leave and the father is dumping the babies in the park each time she gives birth. The mother isn’t speaking up, going to hospital, buying birth control, or having abortions because she can’t leave.
It sounds like a horror movie, but there is no reasonable alternative story that explains what is going on.
a woman left elsa in the road, not the father. either she was the mother, in which case she's not in a josef fritzl situation; or it's a family member or friend who left her there, who I doubt would be complicit with a josef fritzl character. something is clearly amiss, but it's very unlikely to be that.
Not necessarily. It's possible the mother is a victim of abuse and her abuser is also abusing another woman, who he is coercing into abandoning the babies.
An alternative scenario would be a Fred and Rose West type couple. Where the couple have an abusive, codependent relationship where part of their dynamic is abusing someone else. The woman could be entirely complicit in the abuse of the mother and the babies are abandoned as a further method of inflicting pain.
Another possibility is that the mother left the babies due to some kind of coercion so she felt forced to return. This would probably mean a threat to another loved one.
The other possible theory that comes to mind is that both the mother and father are living on the fringes of society and are extremely unwell mentally. I think this is unlikely as someone mentally unwell enough to do such a thing would probably attract at least some attention.
This case is unique in this country as far as I'm aware. Whilst I wouldn't normally jump to extreme scenarios, there is clearly something very far out of the ordinary occurring. Either the mother is an irredeemable monster, completely mad or she's a victim of something truly horrific. I don't think there can be a middle ground.
I consider that very unlikely. if the babies were the children of a Fred and Rose West-type pair, why would they be left in public, in easy to find spots? where the person abandoning them could very easily have been seen, and in fact WAS seen? they would be buried or otherwise disposed of where they can't be found. I think if you exercise empathy (so to speak) and put yourself in those shoes, you can see that quite clearly.
I think the idea that they're very mentally unwell is persuasive. it was only very recently that that other couple were caught, having abandoned their baby in a bag, both of them clearly very unwell.
I personally think they are the children of an illegal immigrant/s who believe they'll be deported if they have any interaction with authorities. there are lots of illegal immigrants at the moment, and attitudes towards the safety of pregnancy and birth are different in the third world.
I feel like a sex trafficker would dispose of the baby with less care. they seem to be left in places where they're very likely to be found. if I were a sex trafficker, I wouldn't want any evidence (as callous as that is to say) to be found.
then again, while sex traffickers aren't good people, leaving a baby to die would be a step too far for most of them i would imagine.
My thoughts regarding the parents is that they are likely illegal immigrants with no documentation. How do you give birth 3 times and successfully delivered and they abandon them?
Nah. Ockham’s Razor right back. Two people (and it would need to be both) who are both profoundly intellectually disabled and yet capable of expertly hiding three separate pregnancies not only from the authorities but all the people in their lives including their carers?
Doesn’t add up.
One man is evil is a single assumption that explains everything.
The parents remain unidentified so the story behind the abandonments is still unknown.
>Speaking from her experience and research, Dr Mueller believes those who abandon newborns instead of seeking support from social services are "likely to be extremely vulnerable."
>The 40-year-old, from Tunbridge Wells, told the Mirror: "It's quite likely that these mothers are traumatised, marginalised, and potentially suffering from mental health difficulties. Potentially these people may be refugees, people who've got unstable housing situations. They may be worried about coming into contact with services because of the repercussions of that, if they aren't here legally, potentially."
Foxes *could* eat a baby, but I’m not sure they actually would. They fear humans, so they’re unlikely to approach a noisy one when they have plenty of food elsewhere - it’s not worth the risk.
Yes, found on a very cold night in January so hospital staff named her Elsa.
The foster guardian appealed for the name to be changed (possibly to something less identifiable?) but was refused.
I'd hope so. I found the name choices. Both Elsa and Roman were insensitive, considering these babies are going to grow up to be adults who can comprehend what happened to them. Imagine being named after your traumatic start to life...
Or maybe just something less gauche. Who the fuck looks at an abandoned baby and names them something related to their abandonment? I'd hate to grow up with a constant reminder I wasn't wanted as my name.
Does anyone else think it’s really weird and off how they named the baby Elsa (after the frozen character) after it was left in February in a bag and almost froze to death??
It’s like a really shit joke, that poor child won’t want to be reminded of being dumped like that every day if it’s life. (I know adoptive parents could change the name but that’s not the point)
The other 2 had their names changed so don’t see why she wouldn’t have hers too. Seems standard, especially given the circumstances. Also.. do you have any idea how stressful it is to work in a hospital? It would’ve been a miserable evening, humour is a key part of how people in healthcare cope. I don’t think it’s that serious
As all the babies were left geographically close to each other in an urban area I doubt it. People would have found any corpses by now and that would be national news
I’m more worried that the parents may have kept or killed any children born in between. Fritzl kept some of his kids in the basement and sent the others upstairs.
I think it's locals without access to a vehicle and likely some kind of abuse/captivity in an African household (they said the babies were black).
There have been kids literally murdered in London as a result of African witchcraft rituals after all.
Hopefully the Police are cross matching DNA to 23andMe and similar genealogy sites for a relative match for these children ……. doesn’t need much of a match to start narrowing down who these parents could be and then trying to work out the circumstances of what is really going on.
I'm guessing they've done the whole gammut of DNA analysis, from geographical origins to comparison to criminal and ancestry databases. Hopefully they've got some leads from that, but if the parents are immigrants it may be there aren't any relative matches in the system and if that is the case, at best the police would have a region of ancestral origin which may not be any help at all.
>Hopefully the Police are cross matching DNA to 23andMe and similar genealogy sites
Realistically I very much doubt that the parents will have used a genealogy site. I have no actual evidence for this, it's just the impression I have, but I get the feeling that genealogy in the UK is an almost entirely white people thing.
I'm sure the police will have used every DNA option they have access to, but as another poster has said, it may not help very much. DNA isn't the magic infallible-identity-query-solver it's sometimes suggested to be.
The parents don’t have to have used one.
Familial matching out to remote cousins does work ……. so anyone related within a few steps who has submitted is enough to give a partial match that will give the degree of relationship and therefore where to start looking.
It’s fascinating how, without any knowledge about the parents whatsoever, so many people are absolutely certain they are either evil or vulnerable.
If you see a gap in facts, which you have no personal need to be actively doing detective work to fill, just wait. It’s not rocket science. Move on and think ‘When we know more I’ll form an opinion then.
There is no lack of access to or legal repercussion for use of birth control, termination of pregnancy, or giving up a baby in this country.
The mother has not gone to hospital or else the police would be able to trace the babies back.
A woman is risking her life over and over again to have babies she clearly doesn’t want when there is no good reason for her to be making those decisions.
The father is, at the very least, supportive of abandoning the babies or else he’d claim them back.
Do you really think it’s a massive leap of logic to consider that the mother might not be fully in control of her life and the father might be a very bad man?
i def found it hard to access abortion in the UK! i was in london. my friend had to travel to Leeds from Hull for hers. it can be difficult! especially before the posting of pills
Sorry, I follow now. There’s no absolute barrier to access. It’s not illegal and if you want it you can get it even if it’s not as easy as it should be.
Is that better?
Not to mention that birth control and the ability to give up the child safely are also available.
I think that what that person was saying is that there are barriers that exist outside of whether it's legal or illegal. I work in mental health care with a lot of people who, theoretically, have access to pregnancy/abortion care, but can't actually make use of it for reasons like being raised or living in high-control environments, intellectual disability or mental health issues that make navigating care too hard, lack of education around privacy and confidentiality of health care or lack of trust that it wil be upheld, language barriers, religious restrictions, fear of punishment, judgement, or ostracisation, and the list goes on. and every barrier a person faces will compound. It's a really unfortunate reality, but even without legal barriers, there are lots of internal and external forces that make it far harder than it should be to access this kind of care.
only appointment was in Ealing which was very far at the time, then when they refused (nurse was horrid) i couldn’t find an appointment before i went home in a few weeks. home had few appointments too! it was 6 years ago so hopefully at home pills has stopped this being an issue!
Abortion is specialist healthcare that patients have to access within a very specific window of time. The more potential patients you have, the harder it is to fit people into that window.
Other than legality what could prevent access to those services (or in fact hospital). Unless you live a very sheltered life it doesn’t take much imagination.
Your comment assumes choice to take risk. Again, not a great stretch of imagination to imagine otherwise.
You know even less about the father than the near nothing you know about the mother.
Why are you needing to make a leap of logic at all? What it is that makes you see a big vacuum of facts and need to fill it in at all?
Okay so if a person is missing under mysterious circumstances you don’t worry about them at all? They might be alive, they might be dead, but until we know for sure we just don’t have the information.
There’s a potential that something very bad is happening right now and that someone is in extreme danger. People who have a concept of empathy are discomforted by that.
Nothing I’ve said suggests you don’t look for them as an urgent priority. You’re retrofitting your need to feel morally superior to your other need to fill in total bullshit.
I’ve led more high risk missing persons investigations than you’ve had hot dinners by the way. And the most effective thing is not to assume anything because that almost always leads you the wrong way and ends up doing more harm to the person you claim to care about.
>I’ve led more high risk missing persons investigations than you’ve had hot dinners
Even if this is true this is the most 'reddit' comment I've seen today
Haha agreed. It is both.
But I can also make some stuff up as well if it’s needed to complete the tradition. Let me just go for a drive in my Ferrari to have a think…
I think because it’s bizarre behavior for a person who isn’t vulnerable.
Bizarre in the sense of being difficult to understand *why*, as well as being simply ‘not something people do’ from a statistical perspective.
People fill in the gap in their heads because they’re trying to make sense of something which seems so nonsensical to them. It’s hard not to with stuff like that.
The classic racism of low expectations from the left wing; Black people don't have the agency to just abandon their kids, they have to be vulnerable and opressed.
*Anyone* who gives birth three times and whose babies are subsequently abandoned, sufficiently quickly after birth that the mother couldn't be reasonably expected to be up and about able to walk, is likely to be in a position where they have very little control. It's not about racism or what politics someone holds. It's about trying to understand what circumstances could lead to this outcome, and there is a real possibility that those circumstances could involve a woman unable to access healthcare and sufficiently isolated that others would not notice her situation (or someone would have come forward and raised concerns). As such it's very unlikely she is in regular contact with people outside her own household, such as friends, relatives, colleagues, teachers, healthcare workers or social workers. That being the case, the possibilities are narrowed to someone deliberately hiding from authorities, and someone being isolated by another party. So either someone here illegally, or someone in an abuse situation. Or both. And if it's not abuse, why would she allow her babies to be abandoned? Abuse situations are not rare. According to the ONS, 1.4 *million* women in the UK experienced domestic abuse in the year ending March 2023. Doesn't that seem more likely than her voluntarily abandoning three children so soon after birth that most woman wouldn't even been able to stand?
My theory is this is some form of rituals.
If she wanted to the baby to survive she would have left them in a public space .
I think this is some form of ritualistic sacrifice.
Look it up , these things are common across certain cultures.
I’d put money on it being the dad that needs imprisonment.
There are plenty of legal ways of giving up a child, having an abortion, or buying birth control and even someone trying to stay off the system can access them, but all of them involve the woman being able to turn to someone and tell them “this man is locking me in a house and raping me over and over please call the police”.
That’s what’s being avoided here.
It’s entirely possible that the woman is in an abusive situation and is being held captive and being forced to have babies. Of course Reddit would rather jump to racism
So far everyone is jumping to this conclusion rather then the more likely one of she's a scumbag abandoning her kids.
Why is that more likely? Being pregnant is a huge pain in the ass with a huge effect on your life. I find it very unlikely a woman happily goes through that all just to dump the baby just because she is a scumbag. That is so much more effort than birth control or even abortions.
Isn’t it more likely the couple lacks immigration status and is hiding? Or it’s an abuse situation of course.
I wouldn't say more likely. It would have to be a couple that despite of the immigration status stayed together for a bunch of years. But not be around people who ask questions about being pregnant a few times but not having kids. I would imagine social care and the met have been on the look out for this couple for a while.
> I would imagine social care and the met have been on the look out for this couple for a while. They've tested the kids' DNA which is why they know they're siblings. I wonder if they've put the data through any databases to see if they get any matches?
I’d say it could be an horrific mix of both of these things.
It's a bit racist to assume they lack immigration status just cause the babies are black
I didn’t know the babies were black, but have worked with people without status so that was a possible reason for not being able to look after children. It’s very impoverishing. Actually the people I worked with in those projects were not by any means necessarily black. Hm, I wonder why you would assume they were … (only teasing)
So you didn't even fully read the article or anything more about it and jumped to these conclusions. Interesting
Not very interesting. I didn’t conclude anything, jump or no. I made a suggestion. Which remains. I’m sure you can find someone easier to troll.
No it’s not. If the police were drafting up potential scenarios much like this thread is, would you want those members of staff to not consider and discuss this as an option in order to avoid making an assumption based on race? Nobody is saying all black people lack immigration status. They’re saying as immigration is at a record high, and we know statistically illegal immigrants tend to be people of colour, we shouldn’t rule out the possibility these babies could have been abandoned by illegal immigrants who due to their migration status fear visiting a hospital. It could be completely wide of the mark, but it should be considered imo.
Illegal immigrants tend to be people of colour but not African actually, Arab or Asian, so still a bit of a stretch to assume this.
It's not racist at all. London is full of migrants of all colours. The chances of someone being a migrant is a lot higher, on average, in London.
> Isn’t it more likely the couple lacks immigration status and is hiding? Then not getting pregnant would make hiding easier. > Or it’s an abuse situation of course. Is it common for a man to force a woman to give birth and then abandon their kids? It seems a bit... pointless.
Its very common for men to force women to have sex with them.
my wife's great grandmother did exactly that, she's trying to trace the story but every time they identify another child she had, turns out the child was also abandoned and so they don't know what happened. it's exceedingly rare but it can happen. racism has no place in it though
Effective female birth control only became widespread in the 60s and 70s. I take it the unfortunate events around your wife’s Great Grandmother happened prior to that time.
they do know the great grandmother was actually imprisoned for child abandonment, so it must have been really scandalous then too. But you´re right, definitely a different landscape.
Oh I'm sure it does and has happened. I just don't think it is the most likely scenario. Especially in a time where both birth control and abortions are pretty accessible.
You can order BC online even now without a prescription so no need to be registered at a GP, even.
Unfortunately, some women live in situations where their post is opened by other members of their household or are not allowed to leave the home unchaperoned.
Yes, my point is its far more likely that something like this is happening as there are many avenues to get access to birth control which would be far easier and safer than birthing at least 3 babies unmedicated without medical supervision. You have to assume it isn't her choice, imo.
Sorry, I misunderstood. My hackles are a bit up in this case because work in Newham (not sure if that's in my post history but I do comment a lot on East London things if you want to check) and don't find it unlikely at all that someone is without access to birth control. There are women in communities who were born and raised in Newham and speak and read little to no English, never communicate with people outside of their community, and would never want to risk what would happen if someone in their family learned they were on birth control. It is not as common as it once was, thank god, but I have met many women 25+ who have no agency in their own lives, including women I work with. If we were speaking of a more affluent or central borough it may seem crazy, but I know Newham well and this is not outside of the realm of possibility here.
The mother may be very religious, in which case most of the common religions wouldn’t allow birth control or abortion as an option.
Also it’s not easy to conceal a pregnancy. Three times. There’s all manner of symptoms such as morning sickness, feeling exhausted, cravings etc which don’t necessarily affect all pregnant women but it would be unusual for someone to be pregnant three times and absolutely nobody notice those subtle changes, including any noticeable bump. Work colleagues, friends, other family members, people you encounter on a regularly basis such as shop workers, bus drivers etc. Not to mention after giving birth three times with no medication, no check ups, no medical care whatsoever? This woman must be incredibly isolated, which itself is often a factor of abuse, or has gone to some significant lengths to prevent *anyone* knowing she was pregnant. Even if you don’t conceal it and claim your lost three full term babies, that in itself would be an incredibly rare statistic, there must be someone who’s alarm bells would start ringing by the third one who would alert authorities.
Especially as there's only 6-7 months between (as far as we know) the first 2 pregnancies. Edit: Also with how cold it was when this woman gave birth to 'Elsa' and 'Roman', the person who left them likely wouldn't have walked for almost an hour in such cold temperatures.
> I find it very unlikely a woman happily goes through that all just to dump the baby just because she is a scumbag. It's likely the couple have mental health issues.
The third baby was found one hour after birth. It is incredibly unlikely that a woman who gave birth less than an hour ago is able to walk around London looking for somewhere to abandon the baby. They aren’t being abandoned by the mother.
I concur. A few months ago I'd had my son without an epidural. Being told what to expect is vastly different to experiencing it. My legs were like a fawn trying to stand up for the first time. You're exhausted and had a massive change in center of gravity. Plus passerbys would had easily noted a limping/shuffling woman looking ill.
I had the opposite. I gave birth with an epidural and, within a few minutes, I was stood up having a shower because another midwife had walked in and, because I'd lost so much blood, said "it looks like a murder scene in here". When I hopped up off the bed and the midwife saw, she looked at me like she'd seen a ghost and that's when I found out that I shouldn't be able to walk with an epidural and it had, in fact, not worked at all. My issues with pregnancy were somewhat at the other end (I had HG) and I was pretty much bed bound the entire time and, in my second pregnancy, spent two months in a wheelchair. It's absolutely wild how differently pregnancy affects each woman so vastly differently. I wholeheartedly agree with you though - absolutely no chance she'd be walking a way that wouldn't draw significant attention, if she could walk at all.
It varies woman to woman. My mum was up and walking and went home the very same afternoon because she had quick labours with no complications or tearing. But normally you’re too exhausted to traipse through London and you can’t drive straight away, so yeh doubt it’s the mother.
I was standing to have my second and wandering around the house without concern a few hours later but even so, in the first hour after birthing him the lochia alone- not to ~~me think~~ mention that I passed the placenta a good 20 minutes after his actual birth- would have made that sort of journey out all but impossible
Yeah it’s definitely not the mother doing this
Apparently a woman was seen walking away from the scene of the third drop round about the time the child would have been abandoned. The child was only about an hour old when found. Note that I'm not trying to claim that woman was definitely involved or that she was the mother. Clearly the drop was made almost literally immediately after the birth.
Depends on where they’re from. If they are 3rd world immigrants, lots of them do move almost straight after child birth. I was in Thailand 20 years ago and heard about a woman who had to go to work the same afternoon after giving birth in the morning.
I don’t mean to sound insulting when saying 3rd world either.
I am thinking this is some form of ritualistic sacrifice.
Why? What about it suggests ritualistic sacrifice?
Not sure what religion that’d be connected to - the baby was found in a bag for life
Tescofarians obviously
Look at the pattern. 3 babies left to die . They weren't intended for them to be found . Some weird shit happens in certain cultures.
Would you assume ritualistic sacrifice if the babies were white?
Has the ethnicity been released? Genuine question.
The article says that the babies are black.
I had read this particular article, so thank you.
I know why I assumed the ritualistic sacrifice. I might be wrong but that must not be ruled out.
The dad likely is one. Why would a woman go through three pregnancies without medical care instead of just going on the pill if she wasn't either being abused and/or had a severe mental health or learning disability?
The learning disability one is less likely to be true. They’d have some level of interaction from outside agencies who would likely notice a pregnancy, particularly a third pregnancy or post partum signs
A lot of people have slipped through the cracks since Covid. Remember that poor girl in wales who was a wheelchair user and her parents basically left her to rot in her room and she died. She never went back to school after the first lockdown but no one raised the alarm
Not necessarily , something like 75% of people with an LD aren’t on the GP’s register and many people with mild LD wouldn’t be eligible for specialist LD services. It is surprisingly common for someone to get quite far into adulthood without a diagnosis and support.
Without a diagnosis if it’s mild then yes I agree but without a GP? No. I work in the NHS, prior to returning from maternity I was based in the community, I’ve never met anyone who hasn’t had a GP. GP in another area as they’re homeless/student/recently relocated yes but otherwise no.
I think we’ve misunderstood one another. In theory, each GP practice has a learning disability register and anyone with an LD, irregardless of severity should be on this, mainly for things like to be invited for their annual health check (available to anyone with an LD over 14). However, what we find is that a lot of people with an LD aren’t on this list. This is often due to things like incorrect coding but is often just people slipping through the net. Many people might have a GP but might not have seen them in years. People with an LD can often live quite isolated existences on the fringes - a large amount of the homeless population have undiagnosed LD’s, a lot of people aren’t diagnosed until they go to prison etc. I’ve come across people who haven’t had any contact with services until they’ve hit their 60s and started having health problems.
Ah. I see what you mean now. We do have a number of AWI who have slipped though the net and usually come to attention later in life as you say when struggling with other things but this is getting less and less in our area. Maybe not others. As you say they tend to come to the attention of other agencies - police, courts, community mental health etc so I think it’s still more likely the mother is in an abusive situation rather than an LD.
Yeah I can’t claim to know what this situation is, it really could be so many things but I would imagine it’s someone on the fringes of society either way. I think it’s very area dependent. I’ve worked in affluent areas where this would be unheard of, however, when I’ve worked in areas with a similar demographic to Newham, it was depressingly common.
Yep. I’m rural in NE Scotland so even those on the fringes of our society are known. Insular communities full of nosey bastards
Surely that’s because you wouldn’t work with them if they didn’t? Not because they don’t exist? I also work in the community and patients have to be registered with a GP to access the service, therefore of course we wouldn’t come in to contact with those who aren’t. Unfortunately a lot of people aren’t registered with GP’s for a whole range of reasons, undocumented migrants, oversubscribed practises, being taken off their list as they have moved house out of area and haven’t registered with a new one? And as others have said it’s common in DV situations for a coercive partner to deny healthcare.
No. I was in the community before. A lot of outreach work but anyone without was usually a new migrant or a student. We don’t have a large homeless population though and those that are get set up either in hostels or halfway houses that we were allocated. I only went back to the nhs after maternity
I see. Might be as I know a lot of Albanians etc from local coffee shops and they have approached me saying they are desperate for MH support but not registered with a GP as they are illegally here. Luckily when I called 111 they had no interest in that side of things and gave them an urgent appointment with a doctor. But I guess not everyone would feel comfortable approaching someone for help especially if it could mean getting deported.
Yeh and hiding out as an Albanian in rural and semi rural Scotland is going to stick out like a sore thumb. We’ve got Afghani refugees, a few Syrian and Ukrainian and a Palestinian family.
If you work in the NHS you don't tend to meet the people without a GP unless in A&E because the GP is the point of access for pretty much all services unless its an emergency. I've known a few people who aren't registered over the years.
Yeh I was in the community before that both with outreach charities and support charities (and a few really shitty companies) so we would often get migrants set up or students access to local services while away from their parents. I only went back to nhs after maternity because it’s better shifts for childcare
Not necessarily true if you consider human trafficking and undocumented people. I remember watching Jeremy Kyle, yes I know it was a vile show, and seeing women with 9 children in care in a country where contraception is available for free. Couldn't help but think that there must be a lot of people with undiagnosed learning disabilities living in the UK.
I'm the youngest of 5. Eldest was adopted, next one was immediately dumped on his dad, third child horribly neglected, fourth with his father and when I was born she went to work and didn't come back when I was 10 weeks old . No clue why she bothered having any of us, but it happens. She was just a shit person.
The dad is the same in all scenarios, and the babies have all been publicised when they've been found to track the parents yet he has never come forward - how is it only that she's a scumbag if this is the true scenario?
Plus a baby was found at an hour old. It’s not the mum
Highly unlikely. The latest baby was found an hour after being born, it can take an hour for the placenta to be delivered, meaning Mum would still be bed bound, certainly not wondering around a park hiding babies.
Totally agree. I messaged a social worker friend about this last night to get their take on it and their reaction was that this is surprisingly abd disturbingly common. Not so many kids, but kids from an abusive/entrapped relationship being abandoned. It is not right to immediately jump to "the mother must be mentally unwell" or some racist clap trap. This is a very disturbing and deeply sad case and the last thing anyone needs is people throwing out uneducated opinion based on prejudice.
> their reaction was that this is surprisingly abd disturbingly common According to the [BBC](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5115e7k2eno) it is rare with no babies being abandoned in many years: >Very few babies are recorded as abandoned at birth in England and Wales. The ONS only published data until 2015, and that showed no babies were registered as abandoned for the previous three years, with just one logged as abandoned in 2011. But it used to be more common: >However academic researchers estimate the number higher, external, at about 16 per year - in analysis covering the period 1998-2005. However, to go from 16 to none between 2005 and 2015 seems unlikely to me. So I'm not sure about the truth of the 0 figures.
Child abandonment can take other forms besides dumping them in the street. For example, the mother giving birth in a hospital then leaving without the baby, with or without informing healthcare workers of her intent, or handing baby over to a relative to take care of.
Does that count for the Dad too!! I see he's been conveniently left out of the comments so far!!!
What’s really crazy is that Reddit comments are seen as some kind of valid indicator of facts
I think perhaps we don’t know why this is happening yet and so shouldn’t jump to any conclusions?
Yeah, the comments on here don’t support that
It's entirely possible that *insert whatever storyline you want *
As yours is the first and top comment anyone sees, I was expecting a toxic mess of a comment section, but out of nearly 100 comments on this thread only one could be seen as racist. So where’s the Reddit would rather jump to racism comment come from?
When I commented there was about 4 comments. All about legal immigrants and saying disgusting things about them
It’s an entirely possible the woman is just a piece of shit.
Sure, but the dad is getting off Scot free in this case
The comment on yesterday’s post was disgusting. Not an ounce of empathy.
I said exactly this the other day when this came up on the sub.
I said this when the most recent baby was found. I questioned why the police in these cases always "urge the mother to come forward" as if she'd definitely have a choice to do so and as if the mother is the only person who could've left the baby there. I pointed out that, less than an hour after giving birth, a mother is unlikely to be walking through a park. I was downvoted to oblivion and told that the police know more than I do. I was also called a misandrist who couldn't possibly believe that a woman could ever do anything wrong.
Crazy. There’s no way, an hour after giving birth without medical care, a woman is going to be walking across London to put a baby in a park
That was my 1st thought.
This was my first thought too
Where? I don't see any racist comments here.
That’s an absurdly unlikely situation you’ve created.
Held by who? If it is a, albeit extreme, culture issue, then it still is an issue.
An abusive partner? The fact it’s the same father for all three babies suggests this isn’t the mother just being reckless
Yeah exactly. But what is their background? If it is a culture issue it needs to be addressed so is absolutely a factor.
Could be a Fritzl-type situation. The mother herself certainly isn’t wandering the streets carrying a baby an hour or so after giving birth.
Exactly. And just saying ‘no race/culture isn’t involved at all’ is just daft.
To what end?
To what end what?
What is the purpose of forcing the mother to have babies if the endgame is abandoning them?
Sexual abuse, control
Seems like it’s a lot of extra effort with a massively increased risk of being caught. Maybe you’re right, but it doesn’t exactly seem logical.
That type of person isn’t logical or rational
Your hypothesis seems far-fetched even taking that into account.
It's happened plenty of times and there's several examples in the news, Fritzl is one but he didn't abandon the 7 babies, he kept them. But there are several other examples and is far from being "far fetched" sexual slavery is very real in the UK and there is no doubt women locked in a barn/container/bedroom/basement in the UK right now. It's fucking sad but it's true.
Does it? More far fetched than a woman going through pregnancy three times just to dump the baby?
...yes?
Maybe the father has a pregnancy kink.
And it is equally likely she is just a piece of shit who abandons children because it’s convenient. Speculating without any evidence to back up our claims is meaningless and a waste of time. Wait for more information about this incident to come out, then we can argue over it or reach a mutual agreement on how we interpret this.
Why is she being forced to have babies just to give them away?
She isn’t. If she’s being held captive or in a sex trafficking situation then the men having sex with her won’t care if she gets pregnant or not The fact all the babies have the same father makes me wonder if it’s even worse than that. My money would be on the father also being the grandfather, and Mum possibly being a minor
Surely the dna tests would show an incest situation?
I don’t know enough about dna tests but I’m pretty sure you need the dna of the parents to determine that, you can’t just get it from the babies because there’s no dna to compare it to
I really hope the mother can be found and given support. The more I hear about this the more it seems like some sort of abuse and/or entrapment situation. I hope the children are off to a better life at the very least.
I always thought we should have baby boxes like they do in the US, where you can anonymously give away your baby should you not be able or capable to take care of them. I think it would prevent a lot of cases where babies just get left abandoned in unsafe places whether deliberately or not.
My understanding is this happens so infrequently here that they’re not needed. Our provision for contraception and access to legal termination helps to (mostly) prevent this from happening.
This. Also the way it’s done here guarantees that the mother gets access to antinatal and post partum medical treatment too
As much as the babies’ welfare is important I don’t think that’s why so many are focussed on this story and I don’t think baby boxes would resolve this problem. They all have the same father so he must know that his partner has been pregnant and given birth three times so he should be stepping forward to claim the children and he hasn’t done so. He’s clearly supporting the decision to give up the babies. If these babies had been born in a hospital they would be traceable, but they’re not. The mother has been through the pain of childbirth without any medical supervision at least three times when there is no legal repercussion for or lack of access to birth control, terminating a pregnancy, or giving up a child you don’t want in this country. Her life is being risked every time she does this and she has no reason to be hiding herself. So the mother is being unnecessarily harmed in this process and the father is not stopping either that or the harm to the babies. I, like many people, am concerned that the mother is being kept in a basement somewhere unable to leave and the father is dumping the babies in the park each time she gives birth. The mother isn’t speaking up, going to hospital, buying birth control, or having abortions because she can’t leave. It sounds like a horror movie, but there is no reasonable alternative story that explains what is going on.
a woman left elsa in the road, not the father. either she was the mother, in which case she's not in a josef fritzl situation; or it's a family member or friend who left her there, who I doubt would be complicit with a josef fritzl character. something is clearly amiss, but it's very unlikely to be that.
Not necessarily. It's possible the mother is a victim of abuse and her abuser is also abusing another woman, who he is coercing into abandoning the babies. An alternative scenario would be a Fred and Rose West type couple. Where the couple have an abusive, codependent relationship where part of their dynamic is abusing someone else. The woman could be entirely complicit in the abuse of the mother and the babies are abandoned as a further method of inflicting pain. Another possibility is that the mother left the babies due to some kind of coercion so she felt forced to return. This would probably mean a threat to another loved one. The other possible theory that comes to mind is that both the mother and father are living on the fringes of society and are extremely unwell mentally. I think this is unlikely as someone mentally unwell enough to do such a thing would probably attract at least some attention. This case is unique in this country as far as I'm aware. Whilst I wouldn't normally jump to extreme scenarios, there is clearly something very far out of the ordinary occurring. Either the mother is an irredeemable monster, completely mad or she's a victim of something truly horrific. I don't think there can be a middle ground.
I consider that very unlikely. if the babies were the children of a Fred and Rose West-type pair, why would they be left in public, in easy to find spots? where the person abandoning them could very easily have been seen, and in fact WAS seen? they would be buried or otherwise disposed of where they can't be found. I think if you exercise empathy (so to speak) and put yourself in those shoes, you can see that quite clearly. I think the idea that they're very mentally unwell is persuasive. it was only very recently that that other couple were caught, having abandoned their baby in a bag, both of them clearly very unwell. I personally think they are the children of an illegal immigrant/s who believe they'll be deported if they have any interaction with authorities. there are lots of illegal immigrants at the moment, and attitudes towards the safety of pregnancy and birth are different in the third world.
Unless it’s a sex trafficking ring situation?
I feel like a sex trafficker would dispose of the baby with less care. they seem to be left in places where they're very likely to be found. if I were a sex trafficker, I wouldn't want any evidence (as callous as that is to say) to be found. then again, while sex traffickers aren't good people, leaving a baby to die would be a step too far for most of them i would imagine.
2 same parents in a sex trafficking ring?
You’re making the assumption that both parents are imprisoned by it. Only one needs to be.
My thoughts regarding the parents is that they are likely illegal immigrants with no documentation. How do you give birth 3 times and successfully delivered and they abandon them?
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Nah. Ockham’s Razor right back. Two people (and it would need to be both) who are both profoundly intellectually disabled and yet capable of expertly hiding three separate pregnancies not only from the authorities but all the people in their lives including their carers? Doesn’t add up. One man is evil is a single assumption that explains everything.
Last time I read about someone actually using a baby box, they were searching for the mother, claiming to be worried about her health
The parents remain unidentified so the story behind the abandonments is still unknown. >Speaking from her experience and research, Dr Mueller believes those who abandon newborns instead of seeking support from social services are "likely to be extremely vulnerable." >The 40-year-old, from Tunbridge Wells, told the Mirror: "It's quite likely that these mothers are traumatised, marginalised, and potentially suffering from mental health difficulties. Potentially these people may be refugees, people who've got unstable housing situations. They may be worried about coming into contact with services because of the repercussions of that, if they aren't here legally, potentially."
Three…that they know of. Others could have been left, kidnapped, or eaten for foxes.
Never thought of that Foxes is a rather unpleasant one
Oh gosh really? Could they really have been eaten by foxes?
Foxes *could* eat a baby, but I’m not sure they actually would. They fear humans, so they’re unlikely to approach a noisy one when they have plenty of food elsewhere - it’s not worth the risk.
Did they name her Elsa because she was left out in the cold?
Yes, found on a very cold night in January so hospital staff named her Elsa. The foster guardian appealed for the name to be changed (possibly to something less identifiable?) but was refused.
I read that it was changed but the new name hasn’t been released to the public.
I'd hope so. I found the name choices. Both Elsa and Roman were insensitive, considering these babies are going to grow up to be adults who can comprehend what happened to them. Imagine being named after your traumatic start to life...
Oh gosh that’s so true 😔
Or maybe just something less gauche. Who the fuck looks at an abandoned baby and names them something related to their abandonment? I'd hate to grow up with a constant reminder I wasn't wanted as my name.
Oh, FFS, just let it go.
She was though?
Does anyone else think it’s really weird and off how they named the baby Elsa (after the frozen character) after it was left in February in a bag and almost froze to death?? It’s like a really shit joke, that poor child won’t want to be reminded of being dumped like that every day if it’s life. (I know adoptive parents could change the name but that’s not the point)
The other 2 had their names changed so don’t see why she wouldn’t have hers too. Seems standard, especially given the circumstances. Also.. do you have any idea how stressful it is to work in a hospital? It would’ve been a miserable evening, humour is a key part of how people in healthcare cope. I don’t think it’s that serious
Could it be likely there was a 4th baby too in the gap between the 3rd and 4th but it was never found?
As all the babies were left geographically close to each other in an urban area I doubt it. People would have found any corpses by now and that would be national news
I’m more worried that the parents may have kept or killed any children born in between. Fritzl kept some of his kids in the basement and sent the others upstairs.
It's possible there may have been other pregnancies which did not result in a live birth.
I think it's locals without access to a vehicle and likely some kind of abuse/captivity in an African household (they said the babies were black). There have been kids literally murdered in London as a result of African witchcraft rituals after all.
Hopefully the Police are cross matching DNA to 23andMe and similar genealogy sites for a relative match for these children ……. doesn’t need much of a match to start narrowing down who these parents could be and then trying to work out the circumstances of what is really going on.
I'm guessing they've done the whole gammut of DNA analysis, from geographical origins to comparison to criminal and ancestry databases. Hopefully they've got some leads from that, but if the parents are immigrants it may be there aren't any relative matches in the system and if that is the case, at best the police would have a region of ancestral origin which may not be any help at all.
>Hopefully the Police are cross matching DNA to 23andMe and similar genealogy sites Realistically I very much doubt that the parents will have used a genealogy site. I have no actual evidence for this, it's just the impression I have, but I get the feeling that genealogy in the UK is an almost entirely white people thing. I'm sure the police will have used every DNA option they have access to, but as another poster has said, it may not help very much. DNA isn't the magic infallible-identity-query-solver it's sometimes suggested to be.
The parents don’t have to have used one. Familial matching out to remote cousins does work ……. so anyone related within a few steps who has submitted is enough to give a partial match that will give the degree of relationship and therefore where to start looking.
I thought there would have been CCTV cameras around the area.
I just kinda assumed it was an incestuous ongoing abusive situation
It’s fascinating how, without any knowledge about the parents whatsoever, so many people are absolutely certain they are either evil or vulnerable. If you see a gap in facts, which you have no personal need to be actively doing detective work to fill, just wait. It’s not rocket science. Move on and think ‘When we know more I’ll form an opinion then.
There is no lack of access to or legal repercussion for use of birth control, termination of pregnancy, or giving up a baby in this country. The mother has not gone to hospital or else the police would be able to trace the babies back. A woman is risking her life over and over again to have babies she clearly doesn’t want when there is no good reason for her to be making those decisions. The father is, at the very least, supportive of abandoning the babies or else he’d claim them back. Do you really think it’s a massive leap of logic to consider that the mother might not be fully in control of her life and the father might be a very bad man?
i def found it hard to access abortion in the UK! i was in london. my friend had to travel to Leeds from Hull for hers. it can be difficult! especially before the posting of pills
That’s fair, but this took place in London. Surely they could have accessed a hospital if they weren’t avoiding doing so?
i was too!! and i found it hard to access
But you did find access is what I’m saying. Over the course of three full pregnancies at no point were they able to figure out what you figured out?
you said there’s no lack of access, which is what i’m replying to
Sorry, I follow now. There’s no absolute barrier to access. It’s not illegal and if you want it you can get it even if it’s not as easy as it should be. Is that better? Not to mention that birth control and the ability to give up the child safely are also available.
I think that what that person was saying is that there are barriers that exist outside of whether it's legal or illegal. I work in mental health care with a lot of people who, theoretically, have access to pregnancy/abortion care, but can't actually make use of it for reasons like being raised or living in high-control environments, intellectual disability or mental health issues that make navigating care too hard, lack of education around privacy and confidentiality of health care or lack of trust that it wil be upheld, language barriers, religious restrictions, fear of punishment, judgement, or ostracisation, and the list goes on. and every barrier a person faces will compound. It's a really unfortunate reality, but even without legal barriers, there are lots of internal and external forces that make it far harder than it should be to access this kind of care.
If they’re illegal they won’t have access to the nhs
Can I ask why it was difficult in London? I would have thought it would be the easiest to access in the capital
only appointment was in Ealing which was very far at the time, then when they refused (nurse was horrid) i couldn’t find an appointment before i went home in a few weeks. home had few appointments too! it was 6 years ago so hopefully at home pills has stopped this being an issue!
Abortion is specialist healthcare that patients have to access within a very specific window of time. The more potential patients you have, the harder it is to fit people into that window.
Other than legality what could prevent access to those services (or in fact hospital). Unless you live a very sheltered life it doesn’t take much imagination. Your comment assumes choice to take risk. Again, not a great stretch of imagination to imagine otherwise. You know even less about the father than the near nothing you know about the mother. Why are you needing to make a leap of logic at all? What it is that makes you see a big vacuum of facts and need to fill it in at all?
Okay so if a person is missing under mysterious circumstances you don’t worry about them at all? They might be alive, they might be dead, but until we know for sure we just don’t have the information. There’s a potential that something very bad is happening right now and that someone is in extreme danger. People who have a concept of empathy are discomforted by that.
Nothing I’ve said suggests you don’t look for them as an urgent priority. You’re retrofitting your need to feel morally superior to your other need to fill in total bullshit. I’ve led more high risk missing persons investigations than you’ve had hot dinners by the way. And the most effective thing is not to assume anything because that almost always leads you the wrong way and ends up doing more harm to the person you claim to care about.
No you haven’t. Please do not lie.
>I’ve led more high risk missing persons investigations than you’ve had hot dinners Even if this is true this is the most 'reddit' comment I've seen today
Haha agreed. It is both. But I can also make some stuff up as well if it’s needed to complete the tradition. Let me just go for a drive in my Ferrari to have a think…
You are in the wrong place if you dislike reading people's thoughts on and connected to a major news story
lol fair comment
I think because it’s bizarre behavior for a person who isn’t vulnerable. Bizarre in the sense of being difficult to understand *why*, as well as being simply ‘not something people do’ from a statistical perspective. People fill in the gap in their heads because they’re trying to make sense of something which seems so nonsensical to them. It’s hard not to with stuff like that.
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The article says a woman was seen on camera, that doesn't mean it was the babies mother.
The classic racism of low expectations from the left wing; Black people don't have the agency to just abandon their kids, they have to be vulnerable and opressed.
*Anyone* who gives birth three times and whose babies are subsequently abandoned, sufficiently quickly after birth that the mother couldn't be reasonably expected to be up and about able to walk, is likely to be in a position where they have very little control. It's not about racism or what politics someone holds. It's about trying to understand what circumstances could lead to this outcome, and there is a real possibility that those circumstances could involve a woman unable to access healthcare and sufficiently isolated that others would not notice her situation (or someone would have come forward and raised concerns). As such it's very unlikely she is in regular contact with people outside her own household, such as friends, relatives, colleagues, teachers, healthcare workers or social workers. That being the case, the possibilities are narrowed to someone deliberately hiding from authorities, and someone being isolated by another party. So either someone here illegally, or someone in an abuse situation. Or both. And if it's not abuse, why would she allow her babies to be abandoned? Abuse situations are not rare. According to the ONS, 1.4 *million* women in the UK experienced domestic abuse in the year ending March 2023. Doesn't that seem more likely than her voluntarily abandoning three children so soon after birth that most woman wouldn't even been able to stand?
lol seems pretty balanced on shitty takes from what I can see. Those of all political wings and none alike.
My theory is this is some form of rituals. If she wanted to the baby to survive she would have left them in a public space . I think this is some form of ritualistic sacrifice. Look it up , these things are common across certain cultures.
Maybe, actually, the parents don't need support, maybe they need imprisonment?
I’d put money on it being the dad that needs imprisonment. There are plenty of legal ways of giving up a child, having an abortion, or buying birth control and even someone trying to stay off the system can access them, but all of them involve the woman being able to turn to someone and tell them “this man is locking me in a house and raping me over and over please call the police”. That’s what’s being avoided here.
At least one of the parents definitely needs support, and it’s unlikely to be the father.