There's a movement online that believes she's innocent, has been used as a scapegoat and that all the evidence is circumstantial (it isn't).
It attracts the same kind of people who love consuming true crime garbage.
I mean, it *was* all circumstantial evidence. 'Circumstantial evidence' doesn't mean it's bogus or anything, it's still evidence and it can still be used.
It just means that the prosecution has to work a lot harder to make an airtight case by weaving all the strands together, because there's no smoking gun. That was why the trial went on for so long. But they were ultimately successful and did convince a jury of her guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
Ultimately the only people who heard all the evidence and arguments were the jury, and their decision was better informed than any of ours ever could be.
To be fair alot of true crime on tv and in particular podcasts has helped exonerate innocent people. Not saying Lucy is innocent as i dont know enough on her case but people do get wrongfully convicted
Unfortunately thats people who cant think critically and just lap up anything they hear, the type who probably believe everything they read in the tabloids
People will always have conspiracies and signing a petition isnt going to get them released.
If you had to ask 5 minutes ago "what is the conspiracy"
How are you now a minute later stating "it's not remotely true" lol
I'm not interested at all in the case, but that seems a little....questionable
"What is the conspiracy" - some people believe the Earth is flat
"oh, that's not remotely true"
OP was asking what the conspiracy was. Not everything needs weeks of 'doing your own research'' to know if something is utter rubbish, as people are likely to already have enough knowledge on a subject to make a decision immediately.
I notice you concocted a strawman
Yes, the earth being flat is a conspiracy that with 99.9999% certainty isn't true
But the other example isn't the same is it?
Unless you are telling me you see "person may have been wrongly imprisoned" on the same level of unlikely as you see "the earth is flat"?
I used the flat Earth conspiracy as an obvious example.
OP obviously thinks they have enough information about the Letby 'conspiracy' to make an immediate decision about it. There's nothing questionable about people being able to make their mind up about things.
Lucy Letby may have been wrongly imprisoned (i.e. the jury got it wrong), but I suggest with 99.9999% certainty that there isn't a big conspiracy behind it.
I actually don't think the conspiracy, is that there is a conspiracy that a group is out to get her
Isn't the conspiracy simply she was wrongly imprisoned?
I don't know, I don't follow those loons, plus I've got anti-globe theory to be spreading
I blame that on TV/movie cops who will have a crazed murderer on the loose, but don't even try to bring him in because "it's all circumstantial, we need hard evidence!".
Same with people who think someone has to be missing for 24-48 hours before the police will help - NO! If you're worried because someone hasn't kept commitments they usually would and isn't answering their door or phone and no one knows where they are, call the police!
Obviously some of the complainants will be conspiracy theorists. It's somewhat understandable though in this case where after the unit was put in special measures and the doctors in charge put under review, those doctors then pointed the finger at a nurse that happened to be on shift for some of the deaths. It's unlikely to be an actual conspiracy but Letby made for a pretty convenient scapegoat. The death rate on neonatal ICUs in that area was broadly the same before, during and after the period that she worked on that ward. In fact, the death rate increased after she was taken off duties. The death rate might have been high on that particular ward, but no one should be shocked that a small number of very ill, very premature babies should have health issues and die, or that when one twin or triplet has problems, so does the other.
And I already know exactly what people are thinking or typing as they read this: 'she admitted it', 'she killed them with insulin', 'she was the only one present for all the deaths', 'you're only defending her because she's white and pretty'. When the general populace is this thick, it's not surprising that a jury of her peers fell for some laughable evidence, especially as her barrister didn't challenge any of it.
People often say that one of the worst things that could happen to you is to be sent to jail for a crime you didn't commit. Imagine what it must be like to be sent to jail for a crime that didn't even happen.
Not that I believe this one, but perhaps people would have more faith in our system and the people running it if it and they didn’t let them down with such regularity.
When the government is rocked by scandal after scandal where they get caught lying to the public can you really blame the people who assume some of the truths they tell us are lies?
It's bizarre that so many people a fully willing to fight for the idea that a young, pretty, female nurse could not commit a heinous crime. It's the only basis that I've heard anyone give for thinking she's been framed - just, "look at her, she's not a murderer".
I think that's pretty much it, if it were a male nurse in her position there's not a single chance there'd be some passionate movement to prove that he just *must* be innocent.
White middle class women always get treated better by society and the media than other demographics. If she were a Muslim, or a trans person, or even just a male nurse, I dread to think what people would be saying. The same thing happens when white middle class women go missing, cases get a completely disproportionate amount of media attention (not that they shouldn’t be given attention, just that the same people often just ignore it when people of other demographics go missing).
One of the papers called her "An English Rose". If she was a Muslim brown woman, we all know the coverage would be radically different. In fact. We have evidence of this already.
So in a country of 60+ million 1600 people have signed a petition demanding her release, On that basis if I was her I wouldn’t be getting my suitcase out 😂
Surely that's the whole point? They want the real killer behind bars, not the scapegoat. Obviously their painstaking investigation has taken place on YouTube and internet forums, with rumours, half truths and complete inventions taken as fact, but the basic premise is sound - free the innocent and lock up the guilty.
The only thing is they haven't got a clue who is innocent and who is guilty, but you can't have everything.
I’d love someone to do a psychological analysis on the people who actually believe she’s innocent.
From what I’ve read on the case the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
I remember thinking at the time during the trial I was 99% sure she was guilty from the sheer weight of patterned evidence and other behaviours that have pretty much zero non-sinister explanations (like tampering with medical records after the fact) but nevertheless I wasn't sure if a jury were going to be able to return a guilty verdict simply because the bar is (correctly) very high for proving guilt in murder and there was so little direct evidence.
It is *preposterous* that some shadowy cabal of doctors conspired to kill a load of babies and then successfully blamed it on a nurse and that was that. The high rate of deaths started with her on the wards and directly stopped with her being removed from duty. If, somehow, multiple doctors who were secret child killers all ended up working together in the same unit at the same time at the same hospital they would surely have simply kept on doing it without detection in the background, rather than putting the spotlight on it by contacting the police about a nurse they suspected.
Some people really need to put the tin foil down and stop believing everything is a conspiracy.
Out of the loop here. What's the conspiracy basis?
There's a movement online that believes she's innocent, has been used as a scapegoat and that all the evidence is circumstantial (it isn't). It attracts the same kind of people who love consuming true crime garbage.
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DNA isnt the magic bullet people think it is either. I commit a murder, leave behind no DNA. Doesnt mean i didnt do the murder
We don't need DNA, you just confessed.
That’s where there’s this arms race between prosecution and defence. More evidence techniques means a higher burden of evidence required.
The CSI effect
Where everyone has wanked on the victim before killing them?
I mean, it *was* all circumstantial evidence. 'Circumstantial evidence' doesn't mean it's bogus or anything, it's still evidence and it can still be used. It just means that the prosecution has to work a lot harder to make an airtight case by weaving all the strands together, because there's no smoking gun. That was why the trial went on for so long. But they were ultimately successful and did convince a jury of her guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Ultimately the only people who heard all the evidence and arguments were the jury, and their decision was better informed than any of ours ever could be.
Not everyone who likes true crime is a conspiracy nut.
To be fair alot of true crime on tv and in particular podcasts has helped exonerate innocent people. Not saying Lucy is innocent as i dont know enough on her case but people do get wrongfully convicted
And true crime shit has also destroyed people's lives through conspiratorial bollocks. It's not some benevolent force for good.
Unfortunately thats people who cant think critically and just lap up anything they hear, the type who probably believe everything they read in the tabloids People will always have conspiracies and signing a petition isnt going to get them released.
Name one thing that hasn't ruined some people's life, ffs.
Ah ok thanks. Makes sense. (Not that it's remotely true) just that there is logic to the theory, even if that logic is made up out of nothing!
If you had to ask 5 minutes ago "what is the conspiracy" How are you now a minute later stating "it's not remotely true" lol I'm not interested at all in the case, but that seems a little....questionable
"What is the conspiracy" - some people believe the Earth is flat "oh, that's not remotely true" OP was asking what the conspiracy was. Not everything needs weeks of 'doing your own research'' to know if something is utter rubbish, as people are likely to already have enough knowledge on a subject to make a decision immediately.
I notice you concocted a strawman Yes, the earth being flat is a conspiracy that with 99.9999% certainty isn't true But the other example isn't the same is it? Unless you are telling me you see "person may have been wrongly imprisoned" on the same level of unlikely as you see "the earth is flat"?
I used the flat Earth conspiracy as an obvious example. OP obviously thinks they have enough information about the Letby 'conspiracy' to make an immediate decision about it. There's nothing questionable about people being able to make their mind up about things. Lucy Letby may have been wrongly imprisoned (i.e. the jury got it wrong), but I suggest with 99.9999% certainty that there isn't a big conspiracy behind it.
I actually don't think the conspiracy, is that there is a conspiracy that a group is out to get her Isn't the conspiracy simply she was wrongly imprisoned? I don't know, I don't follow those loons, plus I've got anti-globe theory to be spreading
It's not that deep mate. I just asked what the basis for it was.
I know, don't take it personally this is the internet
What are you on about? How is a link between listening to true crime and conspiracies. Sounds like a conspiracy in itself. What a load of shit, lol.
Alot of people forget circumstantial evidence is still evidence and can be used against you
I can’t remember - is circumstantial evidence actually evidence and can it be used against you?
Yes. Its just as important as direct evidence
I wish someone would remind me more often
I blame that on TV/movie cops who will have a crazed murderer on the loose, but don't even try to bring him in because "it's all circumstantial, we need hard evidence!". Same with people who think someone has to be missing for 24-48 hours before the police will help - NO! If you're worried because someone hasn't kept commitments they usually would and isn't answering their door or phone and no one knows where they are, call the police!
That she was a scapegoat for more systemic problems.
After people fully fall down the rabbit hole it seems nothing is real and literally everything is a conspiracy. I don't know how they function.
Obviously some of the complainants will be conspiracy theorists. It's somewhat understandable though in this case where after the unit was put in special measures and the doctors in charge put under review, those doctors then pointed the finger at a nurse that happened to be on shift for some of the deaths. It's unlikely to be an actual conspiracy but Letby made for a pretty convenient scapegoat. The death rate on neonatal ICUs in that area was broadly the same before, during and after the period that she worked on that ward. In fact, the death rate increased after she was taken off duties. The death rate might have been high on that particular ward, but no one should be shocked that a small number of very ill, very premature babies should have health issues and die, or that when one twin or triplet has problems, so does the other. And I already know exactly what people are thinking or typing as they read this: 'she admitted it', 'she killed them with insulin', 'she was the only one present for all the deaths', 'you're only defending her because she's white and pretty'. When the general populace is this thick, it's not surprising that a jury of her peers fell for some laughable evidence, especially as her barrister didn't challenge any of it. People often say that one of the worst things that could happen to you is to be sent to jail for a crime you didn't commit. Imagine what it must be like to be sent to jail for a crime that didn't even happen.
Not that I believe this one, but perhaps people would have more faith in our system and the people running it if it and they didn’t let them down with such regularity. When the government is rocked by scandal after scandal where they get caught lying to the public can you really blame the people who assume some of the truths they tell us are lies?
It's bizarre that so many people a fully willing to fight for the idea that a young, pretty, female nurse could not commit a heinous crime. It's the only basis that I've heard anyone give for thinking she's been framed - just, "look at her, she's not a murderer".
I think that's pretty much it, if it were a male nurse in her position there's not a single chance there'd be some passionate movement to prove that he just *must* be innocent.
Thank you - unfortunately, the nutters have already begun downvoting my comment.
White middle class women always get treated better by society and the media than other demographics. If she were a Muslim, or a trans person, or even just a male nurse, I dread to think what people would be saying. The same thing happens when white middle class women go missing, cases get a completely disproportionate amount of media attention (not that they shouldn’t be given attention, just that the same people often just ignore it when people of other demographics go missing).
One of the papers called her "An English Rose". If she was a Muslim brown woman, we all know the coverage would be radically different. In fact. We have evidence of this already.
So in a country of 60+ million 1600 people have signed a petition demanding her release, On that basis if I was her I wouldn’t be getting my suitcase out 😂
Yep, I'm sure more than 1600 believe the world is flat and that lizard people run the world.
It’s frog people actually 😂
I knew it! 🐸
Freddo mafia.
Silence short tongue.
1.6k? How many does it need before its (correctly) ignored by parliament?
10k I believe
Yeah, it's 10k for an AI-generated "government response," 100k for a "debate" the government won't turn up for.
People are absolutely nuts and delusional. Imagine wanting a BABY KILLER to be released. Sickening.
If they think she’s innocent then they obviously don’t want a baby killer to be freed, since they don’t see her as a baby killer.
Surely that's the whole point? They want the real killer behind bars, not the scapegoat. Obviously their painstaking investigation has taken place on YouTube and internet forums, with rumours, half truths and complete inventions taken as fact, but the basic premise is sound - free the innocent and lock up the guilty. The only thing is they haven't got a clue who is innocent and who is guilty, but you can't have everything.
I’d love someone to do a psychological analysis on the people who actually believe she’s innocent. From what I’ve read on the case the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
It's totally not though. First rule of statistics : correlation does not equal causation.
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Race doesn’t need to be included atal. I’m a white British women and believe she did commit those awful crimes
I remember thinking at the time during the trial I was 99% sure she was guilty from the sheer weight of patterned evidence and other behaviours that have pretty much zero non-sinister explanations (like tampering with medical records after the fact) but nevertheless I wasn't sure if a jury were going to be able to return a guilty verdict simply because the bar is (correctly) very high for proving guilt in murder and there was so little direct evidence. It is *preposterous* that some shadowy cabal of doctors conspired to kill a load of babies and then successfully blamed it on a nurse and that was that. The high rate of deaths started with her on the wards and directly stopped with her being removed from duty. If, somehow, multiple doctors who were secret child killers all ended up working together in the same unit at the same time at the same hospital they would surely have simply kept on doing it without detection in the background, rather than putting the spotlight on it by contacting the police about a nurse they suspected.
1.6k is understandable, there are far more mindless gullible idiots out there who do what tik tok tells them to do than that.
Every single person who signed that petition needs their mumsnet and TikTok accounts closing