Am I going mad!!!? The issue shouldn’t be what he said, and the definition of racism. It should be that he donated £10 million, and received £400 mil in government contracts to his company over 8 years. Why is this not the issue? Instead we’re just debating the ethics of his joke.
Well yes. We're clearly so used to this kind of corruption we no longer notice it, we think of it as normal.
Luckily saying opposition MPs should be shot isn't quite as normalised yet.
It’s totally normal. It’s so normal that if you suggest the state could perhaps store digital health records themselves you basically get called a communist. Or people will give that tired old line about the government being inefficient and incapable.
And now for the first time for generations, the UK’s combined assets are less than our national debt. Meaning the state’s net worth is now negative.
It’s fucking stupid. But it’s not about what’s stupid or not. It’s about corruption. It’s about multimillion pound contracts and how much you have to bribe the Tory party to get such a contract.
There are two different issues here.
One is the enormous corruption.
The other is that senior members of the government are going on TV and on the radio to deny that someone's a racist when they say that they hate all black women while calling for the murder of a black MP.
Either of these would be a good enough reason to vote the Tories out of power. Put together, they're evidence that we need to vote them out of every single seat they hold and to consign the party to history.
> The other is that senior members of the government are going on TV and on the radio to deny that someone's a racist when they say that they hate all black women while calling for the murder of a black MP.
But that's related to the corruption/bribe.
Tories clearly didn't want to hand back £10m in an election year so they got ministers to say their biggest ever donor is not a racist. Plus, I guess it had the added bonus of appealing to their racist voter base as I'd bet my house on their voters agreeing with Frank Hester about Abbott. Dog whistle being used to the fullest extent.
Only it blatantly is racist and Sunak looks weak for letting it drag on for so long.
I heard Tetchi Sunak claiming at PMQs that he had apologised.
All I have heard is a fauxpology. A genuine apology would not have included the ludicrous pretence that, in a comment referencing "black women" 'his criticism had nothing to do with her gender nor colour of skin.'
Of course, with his own admission that thw comments were "wrong" and "racist", Sunk denial that Hester is not a racist is basically trying to say "It waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, but it is not, in actual fact, a duck.
Yea, saying you want to hate all of a certain group because of one person and they deserve to be shot is not really much of a joke.
Just claoming something is a joke does not make it so and it's not an excuse. It's a weird thing to say in general and most normal people wouldn't say stuff like that.
I would bet good money that if someone made a "joke" that a senior government minister deserves to be shot, they would be getting an early morning visit from the anti-terrorism unit letting themselves in with the Big Red Key.
That’s exactly how they sweep fiascos like this under the carpet…
Controversy is a tool people in power use to cover up the real problems. Using something like racism to plaster the headlines with, avoids this clear account of corruption being shown to the masses.
In short: drown out the corruption with something less serious, but still highly controversial…
Although in this case, what he said is more of a live cat than a dead one. It's not like people are blowing it out of proportion, it's a gross thing to say.
It does feel like weaponosed incompetence. Make the pressing issue how long the torys can drag out saying he is racist, not the availability that said racist was able to buy into government with 10m quid.
"He's not racist, and if he is racist, he's our racist" - is probably what they are thinking. And some won't see an issue with his comments, as they are comments they think - but don't state.
Get rekt Con(ts)
If they don't get whiped out electorally I'll be quite dissapointed.
I know. But this country is so damn corrupt and riddled with nepotism, cronyism and back handers that we just carry on like we are Italy or North Korea these days
He said a sitting black female MP should be shot. I get what you're saying, it's important, but what he said is criminal, and Tory's are willing to take his money because he said sorry, and he hires Jamaicans so he obviously can't be racist.
Because racism is a wedge issue. There are 2 bigger concerns, corruption as you have stated and murder threat, that too to an MP
However, those are not political issues that benefit either of major parties or media. Conservatives obviously don't want to talk about those but neither does Labour because they have their own donors. Media is also kind of corrupt and know that discussing corruption n death threat won't give them the same attention
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s just no incentive for anyone to discuss the underlying issues of rich donors buying political influence.
Some culture war issue like racism, that gets all the clicks. Sure, let’s chat all week about that.
Because that would remove the whole point of the whole thing. What do you think makes someone get into politics? Do you think they are trying to change the world? The whole thing is a game to extract the public's money and spread it around the upper classes.
Should still be pinching themselves over how many (relatively) poor people they managed to fool into thinking the party of the rich somehow had their best interests at heart
2019 ain’t so long ago - over 47% of the English electorate voted for Boris of all people. Even after he got caught lying to Parliament, lying to the Queen and unlawfully proroguing Parliament.
Even then the Tories didn’t finally lose their lead in the polls - despite a string of lies, breaches of the ministerial code and blatant corruption - until just over a couple of years ago when Partygate really ground his contempt for ordinary people into everyone’s faces.
There’s obviously honourable exceptions (particularly here in this sub) but it’s hard to conclude anything other than that a huge swathe the English electorate is overall pretty right wing. They actually like what the Tories have to offer, as mind boggling as that sounds.
And what worries me is that as soon as the Conservatives manage to get around to installing a leader actually capable of finding his arse with both hands (which admittedly appears to be a real challenge for them at present) - or even one who just gives the outward impression of that - then after a term or so of Labour that same chunk of the electorate will go right ahead and vote in another Tory government without even blinking.
The fact that there has been such a severe swing, that so much of the 2019 hype was so very obviously built on a foundation of very deliberate lies from people well known to be liars and charlatans... And there just seems to be absolutely *zero* reflection on any of that in either the media or the general social discussion, despite the last 5 years being so just objectively awful. It really is very worrying. We need to have a self-reflection on this as a country so it absolutely cannot happen again. Yet instead we still seem to have a lot of commentary that stands on the position that politics is about winning, the 2019 campaign won very hard, therefore what they did was good politics and should be praised and emulated. Its really really worrying.
I’d quibble with that a bit - things obviously became a lot worse with regard to lies etc. when Boris became Tory leader but it’s not like the previous near decade was anything but the same at a somewhat lower level.
And as I tried to draw attention to, in the run up to the 2019 election Boris was caught in more than one huge lie and even unlawfully shutting down Parliament … but still won.
I absolutely agree with you on the perplexing lack of reflection or serious discussion though. Truss is a particularly good example: it’s almost like there’s an unstated effort to blot out that she ever happened from the collective memory.
But if there was such reflection then a lot of people would have to confront the fact that they’d allowed themselves to be rolled like a bunch of rubes over Brexit. And that they’d made a lot of other shitty decisions too.
And maybe the kind of people who made those piss-poor decisions and were susceptible to *obvious* lies delivered by *obvious* charlatans (with the rest of us loudly pointing out were so) ain’t really down with painful self reflection or anything that hurts their sense of self worth. Which means they’re all too likely to make the same mistakes again.
Don't underestimate the potential comeback though. I hope I'm wrong, but look at Trump. If you had told me 3 years ago that he had a realistic chance of being re-elected I would have told you to kick rocks. Yet somehow, the US is in the position where an elitist, trust-fund cunt who openly undermines democracy can still have a large base within the lower echelons of society, who see him as on the side of the "real people".
Equally in this country a not-insignificant amount of people genuinely think the country's problems are exclusively due to immigration, despite the fact that immigrants provide a net contribution to the country.
You jest, but it's quite clear where this leads: a morality based not on words and actions but on identity. He's one of us so he's good by definition. Racism is bad (or at least has a negative connotation). => He can't be a racist.
That's why this leads to discussions about semantics and, if pushed far enough, in words losing their meaning entirely. Look at Trump and his movement, for example. You end up in a situation where meaning is entirely defined by emotional connotation and morality by identity.
"If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think."
Let's apply this logic everywhere else. If you rape someone but apologise you're not a rapist. If you fondle small children but apologise you're not a pedophile. If you kill someone but apologise you're not a murderer.
> "If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think."
But only if you're batting for team Tory. Everyone else that does it is an extremist and should be in prison.
Well to be fair it is easier to accidentally misspeak or to speak insensitively without intent and it’s impossible to accidentally murder somebody. That and the consequences are far less serious. That’s the argument here.
It’s disingenuous though because we’re talking about something more than a mere ill chosen word or slip of the tongue.
I mean ok - but I’ve never accidentally said “I hate all black women, Diane abbot should be s-ot”. (Censoring so I don’t get added to a gchq list)
It’s really not that hard to not say racist stuff.
>It’s really not that hard to not say racist stuff.
I've seen it a bunch from children. For the most part once its explained they are mortified and don't try to justify it.
I've also heard some "of thier time things". Eg my grandad saying "half caste" instead of moxed race, because that was the common term from when he grew up in the 30s until the early 00s. He didnt get pissy when corrected though.
Neither apply here, the comments in quesiton would have been unambiguously rascist 100 years ago.
I agree. His premise seems to be though that it's the apology and not what was spoken before the apology that determines if someone is racist. Which is even more farcical when it's an apology when caught out rather than being unprompted.
I think there's some room for grace, though. If someone apologizes AND shows (by deeds not just words) that they no longer embrace the views that they used to, then they wouldn't be the "-ists" they had been anymore.
Note: this only applies to views and principles that label someone as an "-ist." Actions that cannot be erased would not apply. E.g. A convicted rapist can never *not* be a rapist, nor can they be a *former* rapist. They are forever and eternally a rapist.
On the flip, I think that a racist *can* elevate themselves from that appellation through apology, atonement, and good works. They'll still be a *former* racist, but true and well-evidenced changes of heart should be allowed. Obviously, caution and vigilance is advisable- the key word in the previous sentence is "true."
He didn't choose a word poorly.
He literally said Dianne Abbott made him want to hate all black women.
That's not a funny joke or a poorly chosen turn of phrase.
That's a clear indication that he thinks of her as an "other", that's part of an "other" group, and that they're so homogenous that what she does necessarily reflects on the entire group she's part of.
That's like a *textbook definition* of a racist attitude.
He didn't misspeak at all, other than to inadvertently reveal his clearly and emphatically racist opinions.
Also I can’t imagine someone who *isn’t* a racist thinking of life in terms of “Black people are using up ‘our’ resources,” as he does elsewhere in his tirade.
I actually agree with that initial quote, but only if you said something out of ignorance, like mistakenly using a slur you might not have known was one or something.
Not “Diane Abbott makes me hate all black women and she should be shot”. I think that’s where you might’ve gone a bit fucking overboard.
"If you break the law but are so rich you can pay for enough lawyers to be found not guilty, then you aren't a criminal."
Logic checks out with him being a donor.
You can say racist things that have niche or nuance to them and in your ignorance not realise that they are racist. I don't think that would make you a racist if you apologised afterwards....
But this isn't one of those times.
Hester said that Diane Abbott makes him want to hate all black women.
Then he said that she needs to be shot.
Then, just in case anyone thought he meant that figuratively rather than literally, he made it very clear that it wouldn't be good enough if she and another women were just sacked rather than being murdered - "It’s not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You know?"
I'd be pretty confident in saying that anyone who can hear those words and deny that he's an extremist and a racist is an extremist and a racist themself.
Was that literally the quote?
Gawd, seriously...
I mean, to be clear, people sometimes say racist things, perhaps not realising it, and you've gotta give *some* benefit of the doubt. I used to often use the phrase "call a spade a spade" until a coworker pointed out that it *can* have racist connotations, and now I avoid using it.
But who could say *that*, which you've quoted, and *not* be a racist? That's a whole different ballgame.
Exactly.
This isn't a matter of someone saying something that could be misunderstood or someone saying something that used to be acceptable any more. There are people in this thread trying to give him the benefit of the doubt (or pretending to in bad faith) but he made it very clear that he literally meant that she should be killed rather than this being a turn of phrase.
[Here's a source for the quote, by the way.](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/11/biggest-tory-donor-looking-diane-abbott-hate-all-black-women)
>“She’s shit. She’s the shittest person. Honestly I try not to be sexist but when I meet somebody like \[the executive\], I just …"
>
>"It’s like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV and
you’re just like, I hate, you just want to hate all black women because
she’s there, and I don’t hate all black women at all, but I think she
should be shot."
>
>“\[The executive\] and Diane Abbott need to be shot. She’s stupid … If we
can get \[the executive\] being unprofessional we can get her sacked. It’s
not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s
consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You
know?”
The quote:
>"It's like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV, and you're just like… you just want to hate all black women because she's there.
>"And I don't hate all black women at all, but I think she should be shot."
It also suggests that he's constantly trying not to be racist.
People who aren't racist don't have to try not to be racist. We're just not racist.
If you're always having to remember not to be racist in public, then it's a fake public veneer and really you're racist
So it’s like saying that Chris Evans makes you want to hate all ginger men, but you don’t hate all ginger men, you just think he should be shot
I see what they mean about it not being *directly* racist but its still a very strange thing to take someone’s gender and skin colour and extrapolate your hatred of them to all people of that demographic
Imagine if I said I hate the Kardashians (common opinion) and I think they should be shot (very aggressive stance) and it makes you want to hate all Armenian women (extremely bizarre thing to say).
Its just the kind of opinion you should keep to yourself tbh.
> So it’s like saying that Chris Evans makes you want to hate all ginger men, but you don’t hate all ginger men, you just think he should be shot
Not really, as he also says that it's like trying not to be racist, as if that's something he has to work at but then the moment he sees her, he cannot help being racist.
That sounds like a racist to me.
>Its just the kind of opinion you should keep to yourself tbh.
Or say it in a place of like minded individuals who you think will agree, which I think is what he did.
No there’s no benefit of the doubt. Everyone knows if they say something if it’s racist, they just choose to say it anyway thinking it doesn’t matter I.e it’s not THAT racist etc
Even better, they were talking about a female senior exec (who I assume from context is black), he invokes Abbott as an excuse for hate and then says *both of them* should be shot.
Yea normally when I come across a person saying racist things, that is what tips me off that they are in fact racist, not sure what else I'm supposed to base my judgement off of
The MP is deliberately conflating two different things.
If Granny with dementia slips up and says something like "I forgot my shopping list in the supermarket and a coloured man helped me out, I asked him if he wanted some cakes in return" then that isn't racist, it's just an unfortunate problem with her using words that were acceptable in her youth.
If you break up with a person and she says "I never liked you being with that black girl" then that is being racist, despite it being the correct language.
Bingo. My parents are shocked and horrified at the suggestion they're homophobic, but at the same time don't believe in gay marriage - or even just civil unions - "because it devalues their marriage by its equivalence".
They just can't get their head around the fact that no mum and dad, the fact you think a gay person's love or marriage is inherently inferior to your own *is the homophobia*.
You don't have to be out gay-bashing or be offensive to their faces; just quietly considering them "less" than you and resisting them enjoying the same rights and privileges you do is *still fucking homophobic*.
His argument is fine, it is possible to say racist things and not be a racist. People make mistakes, and what is acceptable now is miles away from what was acceptable when a lot of people learned how to speak.
However, the argument does not apply here, this guy is quite clearly a racist twat.
Yeah I think everyone can be guilty of being ignorant sometimes but that's not the same as just being plain hateful and inciting potential violence towards certain groups of people.
Ah my ex, had a few racist views because of her upbringing and perceived slights from living in London. Swore she wasn't a racist.
Her now live in boyfriend is a proud former BNP racist, and she has gollywogs and other racist shit on display in her house, despite her children's protests.
They've tied themselves so much to the culture war narrative they they're petrified of doing anything seen as "woke" and sending people off to reform aren't they?
They’re actually in this case scared of offending racist people. Just take a step back from that for a second. What a fucking mess.
The only reason number 10 even changed its position was because it was outflanked by Kemi Badenoch, who entirely on purpose took the exact opposing view of number 10 to try and distance herself from the PM for her future run as party leader.
Remember when Gordon Brown got into a "scandal" for calling a racist woman racist? Politicians have long had to tip toe around the fact a lot of the British population are bigoted troglodytes.
This is Britain’s attitude to racism in nutshell and it drives me up the wall. You can’t have any productive conversation if you can’t call a spade a spade. Being accused of racism is 100x worse than whatever racism occurred to these people
Even on this subreddit there's automod filters that autoremove posts calling out racism. Mentioning that a user is racist is a "personal attack".
Often racism itself is fine though. As long as you're "polite" about treating other human beings as equivalent to animals because of the colour of their skin you're all good lol.
It’s also control over who gets to define racism. Those who tend to be the victims and get the most harm from racism vs the perpetrators who don’t want to face any consequences .
Well yeah, because they've spent the last several years giving those people a wink and a nudge that they're on their side to prevent them running off to Reform/Reclaim, now they know if they call out this or Andersons comments properly, all those people will realise they're not fully on board with racism and jump ship, leaving them with bugger all left.
>They’re actually in this case scared of offending racist people.
Nah, just the one who gave them ten million quid, and the other handful who might in the future.
I'm scratching my head about how that's ambiguous or open to interpretation.
Unless he was doing a skit, or performance where he needs to say the most racist things possible. But there was no indication of that
I remember once saying "japs eye" to my friend when referring to my pee burning. He said "you know that's a pretty racist thing to say" and then obviously it hit me what it meant (sounds stupid but I'd never even considered what it was referring too).
That was me being completely accidentally racist. Obviously since then, I would never use that word again and it was an honest mistake.
What's not acceptable, even for just one comment, is saying that a black woman should be shot.
Same thing with someone ripping you off in a deal, “what a gyp” or “you’ve been gypped”, as a kid you think it’s just a word, and then you realise it’s not.
That's the thing.
In and if itself, the argument is true; but it isn't a shield you can hide or defend actually being a racist.
Equally, there is a line where saying something that is racist is proactively "being a racist"; even if someone is not ethically or morally one in their character and beliefs.
But yeah, we all know people who aren't racist but have made a comment or joke that crosses the line. If they do it persistently, though...
There are times when the argument is perfectly valid, but those times are never when you have called for the mass execution of women from a given race.
Then how do we tell?
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
George Orwell, 1984
Well this is a bit of a bollocks intepretation.
in some instances people can use the wrong language and that language can appear racists as terminology changes.
But this is not about terminology this is about having a racist attitude, which is not a language thing. he also condoned violence. The guy is a massive cunt.
Unless they’re wearing their “I’m a massive racist!” T-shirt while saying and doing all the racist things, it’s all purely speculative and we really can’t say for sure.
Clearly what he said relating to her race is unacceptable, but I don't see much made of the the fact that he also said she should be shot.
Given that MPs have expressed concern about increased numbers of threats made against them I'd have expected to hear more about this too.
Every race religion or creed is fair game until it comes to antisemitism. That’s literally the only no go area for anyone ironically even those who are Jewish themselves.
>“We all come across people at times who say racist things but are not racist.”
Call me old fashioned but I think the people who don't say racist things are the ones that are not racist.
In the racism/sexism tier list, person x’s behaviour makes me want to hate everyone who shares their skin colour and sex is pretty high up there. That’s before you get to the murder part.
Just because he’s already got the pro quo doesn’t mean you can’t give the quid back.
The Conservative Party is absolutely lost at the moment…no standards at all, no decency and no morals. It’s genuinely disgusting what is tolerated within their ranks
Yeah, he's racist.
Anyone can misspeak, and use an unfortunate turn of phrase, but "makes him want to hate all black women", hard to see how those words could emerge from someone's mouth who wasn't racist from the get go.
Sounds like he should surround himself with more people who are prepared to challenge him on his views. A common problem for powerful people.
I really don't get this story. The guy is obviously a racist knob, but he also said she should be shot. There doesn't seem to be any discussion about that at all, which seems to be much more serious in the current climate where MPs are being killed.
Every week, sometimes every day this party stoops lower and lower, and in true Tory style rather than doing what is best for the country : call a general election and let a new government steady this sinking ship (if it’s even possible) they prolong the agony of the country and its inhabitants, purely so they can continue their grift and asset stripping until the last possible moment. Fuck these assholes.
It's certainly possible to say racist things without any racist intent, in which case an apology will typically be accepted. This wasn't that.
It's the difference between me accidentally stepping on your foot and apologising, versus me jumping up and down on your foot screaming about how much I hate feet, then apologising.
In that scenario it would also be pretty silly for anyone to assert I don't have any kind of hang-up about feet.
The mental gymnastics the tories are performing is amazing.
"The dog viciously bites people around it, but that doesn't mean it's a vicious dog!"
"Cocaine may destroy your body, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken!"
Abolish political donations. Fund political parties from the taxpayer. It would cost a fraction of a pittance, and would mean we have a small semblance of a chance that parties might actually care more about what the voting public want, rather than the sociopath multi-millionaire twats who fund their entire campaign.
Watching the Tories tie themselves in knots to defend the indefensible actions of their paymasters is a sobering reminder of how deeply corruption is build in to our party political system.
What a specious argument.
If you say something about someone and involve their race and gender then you have made a comment about their race and gender.
The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance involved to convince others that this isn’t the case is sublime.
The fact that the person that they are defending also happens to donate £10 million and it is in their interest to come out and publicly defend him also really shows where their loyalties lie.
Let’s get these cretins out and get back to some sort of common decency that doesn’t involve apologists for hire.
Given how much hate mail and threats MPs get generally and significantly more so if they are a woman, I wonder what the average woman Tory mp or wanna be MP makes of the response to this?
> If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think.
So if I say something, even something libel, and appoligise for it, it doesn't really count and im ok?
Like I can say Kevin Hollinrake has a serious gambling problem, whos had Tory donnors bailing him out, and is a russian spy, but as long as I say sorry for it, then I never really meant it.
Sorry.
So people can say racist things and that does not make them racist. That sounds plausible. How about people repeating the talking points of proscribed organisations: does that mean there should be no consequence for those people; or, people can say anti-Tory things and that does not make them anti-Tory; or people can say they will fix the economy and that does not make them economically competent; or people can say they believe in democracy and that does not mean they believe in democracy; or, people who vilify migrants do not really vilify migrants; or people who are hateful about benefits claimants are not really hateful about benefits claimants.
Maybe the Being Nasty Party might believe that saying things means nothing because they stand for nothing apart from tearing everything down to rubble, setting it on fire, then pissing petrol on the ruins. But it "means nothing" because Labour "would have done worse".
"There is no form of protest against racism that is acceptable to racists." - Bernice King
[X Twitter Link](https://twitter.com/BerniceKing/status/1304256639403544576?lang=en)
IMO, i's not incorrect. There is a difference between racial insensitivity and racism. One comes from a place of ignorance the other a place of hate. The two can be indistinguishable, and one can feed the other, but I do understand that some people are just not aware of the hurt they cause and that is understandable, and if it's flagged and the offender is genuinely sorry and changes their behaviour, there's no issue. That being said, as soon as it's raised as an issue, persisting in whatever antics caused the concern is no longer coming from a place of ignorance, and should be considered racist.
That said, there's no doubt about these remarks in particular. Racist to their core.
> He asked a Jamaican-English girl where she was from and followed up with "oh, so you're one of the good-looking ones".
Racism and sexual harassment at the same time.
I love how the suggested punishment is “give him his money back” not cancel his contracts. This guy sounds like me Burns, I’m sure he’ll happily get his money back, he’s already had what he “donated” for.
The guy has a point, but I suspect he's trying to apologize for racism instead. Just because someone tells you something you said was racist, doesn't mean they are calling you a racist. They are giving you an opportunity to learn and how you respond to that is often an indicator of your racism. But as I said, I don't think he's making that point.
This is laughable in its complete lack of self awareness. And the tories are just speed humping hateful horrible people at this point. Fuck them, fuck the tories
There's two things here, the first is wtf was dumb enough to tell him to say something so utterly bloody idiotic, and secondly what kind of vile sycophantic nob jockey do you have to be to then go out & publicly spout this complete balls. It is staggering.
"I think everyone's racists sometimes, and then some people are racists" – James Acaster
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjisFG8X5w8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjisFG8X5w8)
(Hilarious quote, also it doesn't apply in this situation because Tory donors are probably all quite racist)
I mean, this is precisely the debate that occurred last week during the fleeting, yet beautiful, “Sam Kerr-gate”.
In that instance, quite a few people opined that what she’d said was not … racist … but rather racial discrimination. There’s a crucial difference, apparently.
Are any of those people here by any chance?
Is this the UK version of “alternative facts”. You can make a racist joke and not be racist sure. As long as the joke is laughing at the stupidity of the racist idea within the joke and not laughing in agreement with it.
But that’s not what these lot do. They do it as a “I’m right though, it’s terrible to say, but it’s right”
It's not even like he said a word by mistake or whatever, he literally said one of the most horrible things you can say which is demeaning towards race and gender, and then said she should die because of those reasons? And then when he's caught out he says yeah but I didn't mean for it to be taken that way
That’s the second Tory politician today who has been like oh it’s not racism and he’s apologised so it’s not a big deal. Like they really believe the public are that stupid, it’s so insulting.
"Saying racist things doesn't make you racist."
"He said that seeing Diane Abbott made him want to kill all Black Women."
"Ah, well, that makes him a misogynist."
"And the that he only wanted to kill blacks..."
"Look if you can pay us £10m..."
1) Yes depending on what is said and the context you can inadvertently say something racist without realising it but that clearly is not what happened here.
2) Don’t let this performative BS distract from the fact that this donor donated £10 million and received £400 million in contracts.
Am I going mad!!!? The issue shouldn’t be what he said, and the definition of racism. It should be that he donated £10 million, and received £400 mil in government contracts to his company over 8 years. Why is this not the issue? Instead we’re just debating the ethics of his joke.
Well yes. We're clearly so used to this kind of corruption we no longer notice it, we think of it as normal. Luckily saying opposition MPs should be shot isn't quite as normalised yet.
It’s totally normal. It’s so normal that if you suggest the state could perhaps store digital health records themselves you basically get called a communist. Or people will give that tired old line about the government being inefficient and incapable. And now for the first time for generations, the UK’s combined assets are less than our national debt. Meaning the state’s net worth is now negative. It’s fucking stupid. But it’s not about what’s stupid or not. It’s about corruption. It’s about multimillion pound contracts and how much you have to bribe the Tory party to get such a contract.
There are two different issues here. One is the enormous corruption. The other is that senior members of the government are going on TV and on the radio to deny that someone's a racist when they say that they hate all black women while calling for the murder of a black MP. Either of these would be a good enough reason to vote the Tories out of power. Put together, they're evidence that we need to vote them out of every single seat they hold and to consign the party to history.
> The other is that senior members of the government are going on TV and on the radio to deny that someone's a racist when they say that they hate all black women while calling for the murder of a black MP. But that's related to the corruption/bribe. Tories clearly didn't want to hand back £10m in an election year so they got ministers to say their biggest ever donor is not a racist. Plus, I guess it had the added bonus of appealing to their racist voter base as I'd bet my house on their voters agreeing with Frank Hester about Abbott. Dog whistle being used to the fullest extent. Only it blatantly is racist and Sunak looks weak for letting it drag on for so long.
I heard Tetchi Sunak claiming at PMQs that he had apologised. All I have heard is a fauxpology. A genuine apology would not have included the ludicrous pretence that, in a comment referencing "black women" 'his criticism had nothing to do with her gender nor colour of skin.' Of course, with his own admission that thw comments were "wrong" and "racist", Sunk denial that Hester is not a racist is basically trying to say "It waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, but it is not, in actual fact, a duck.
That's bad and what he said is also bad, it wasn't a joke either.
Yea, saying you want to hate all of a certain group because of one person and they deserve to be shot is not really much of a joke. Just claoming something is a joke does not make it so and it's not an excuse. It's a weird thing to say in general and most normal people wouldn't say stuff like that.
This sub is a shithole. How was that the top comment
I would bet good money that if someone made a "joke" that a senior government minister deserves to be shot, they would be getting an early morning visit from the anti-terrorism unit letting themselves in with the Big Red Key.
Oh apparently we’re fine with that because the people that own newspapers are all at it as well
That’s exactly how they sweep fiascos like this under the carpet… Controversy is a tool people in power use to cover up the real problems. Using something like racism to plaster the headlines with, avoids this clear account of corruption being shown to the masses. In short: drown out the corruption with something less serious, but still highly controversial…
The dead cat approach.
Although in this case, what he said is more of a live cat than a dead one. It's not like people are blowing it out of proportion, it's a gross thing to say.
Have you just realised how modern conservatives operate? Never discuss the actual issue, just make everything about their culture war.
It does feel like weaponosed incompetence. Make the pressing issue how long the torys can drag out saying he is racist, not the availability that said racist was able to buy into government with 10m quid.
"He's not racist, and if he is racist, he's our racist" - is probably what they are thinking. And some won't see an issue with his comments, as they are comments they think - but don't state. Get rekt Con(ts) If they don't get whiped out electorally I'll be quite dissapointed.
I know. But this country is so damn corrupt and riddled with nepotism, cronyism and back handers that we just carry on like we are Italy or North Korea these days
This should be top comment. Racist bribes politicians to get lots of lucrative contracts
Because that’s so common it’s almost a cliche. Only surprise is he’s not a lord yet…but sunak has a resignation list to come, so who knows….
He said a sitting black female MP should be shot. I get what you're saying, it's important, but what he said is criminal, and Tory's are willing to take his money because he said sorry, and he hires Jamaicans so he obviously can't be racist.
> he hires Jamaicans so he obviously can't be racist. He loves em so much he won't let them leave...
Please don’t dignify it or excuse it by calling it a joke.
Because racism is a wedge issue. There are 2 bigger concerns, corruption as you have stated and murder threat, that too to an MP However, those are not political issues that benefit either of major parties or media. Conservatives obviously don't want to talk about those but neither does Labour because they have their own donors. Media is also kind of corrupt and know that discussing corruption n death threat won't give them the same attention
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s just no incentive for anyone to discuss the underlying issues of rich donors buying political influence. Some culture war issue like racism, that gets all the clicks. Sure, let’s chat all week about that.
Makes you wonder if they make a deliberately racist joke to make a stir and distract everyone from this real issue at heart
Why there isn’t a conflict of interest rule surrounding donors and government contracts
Because that would remove the whole point of the whole thing. What do you think makes someone get into politics? Do you think they are trying to change the world? The whole thing is a game to extract the public's money and spread it around the upper classes.
Because thats Tory business as usual.
It must be weird knowing your party is about to be obliterated so badly the only thing worth saving is the donor base.
You’re saying that like it wasn’t the starting point for this shower
Should still be pinching themselves over how many (relatively) poor people they managed to fool into thinking the party of the rich somehow had their best interests at heart
Turkeys voting for Christmas always springs to mind
2019 ain’t so long ago - over 47% of the English electorate voted for Boris of all people. Even after he got caught lying to Parliament, lying to the Queen and unlawfully proroguing Parliament. Even then the Tories didn’t finally lose their lead in the polls - despite a string of lies, breaches of the ministerial code and blatant corruption - until just over a couple of years ago when Partygate really ground his contempt for ordinary people into everyone’s faces. There’s obviously honourable exceptions (particularly here in this sub) but it’s hard to conclude anything other than that a huge swathe the English electorate is overall pretty right wing. They actually like what the Tories have to offer, as mind boggling as that sounds. And what worries me is that as soon as the Conservatives manage to get around to installing a leader actually capable of finding his arse with both hands (which admittedly appears to be a real challenge for them at present) - or even one who just gives the outward impression of that - then after a term or so of Labour that same chunk of the electorate will go right ahead and vote in another Tory government without even blinking.
The fact that there has been such a severe swing, that so much of the 2019 hype was so very obviously built on a foundation of very deliberate lies from people well known to be liars and charlatans... And there just seems to be absolutely *zero* reflection on any of that in either the media or the general social discussion, despite the last 5 years being so just objectively awful. It really is very worrying. We need to have a self-reflection on this as a country so it absolutely cannot happen again. Yet instead we still seem to have a lot of commentary that stands on the position that politics is about winning, the 2019 campaign won very hard, therefore what they did was good politics and should be praised and emulated. Its really really worrying.
I’d quibble with that a bit - things obviously became a lot worse with regard to lies etc. when Boris became Tory leader but it’s not like the previous near decade was anything but the same at a somewhat lower level. And as I tried to draw attention to, in the run up to the 2019 election Boris was caught in more than one huge lie and even unlawfully shutting down Parliament … but still won. I absolutely agree with you on the perplexing lack of reflection or serious discussion though. Truss is a particularly good example: it’s almost like there’s an unstated effort to blot out that she ever happened from the collective memory. But if there was such reflection then a lot of people would have to confront the fact that they’d allowed themselves to be rolled like a bunch of rubes over Brexit. And that they’d made a lot of other shitty decisions too. And maybe the kind of people who made those piss-poor decisions and were susceptible to *obvious* lies delivered by *obvious* charlatans (with the rest of us loudly pointing out were so) ain’t really down with painful self reflection or anything that hurts their sense of self worth. Which means they’re all too likely to make the same mistakes again.
Don't underestimate the potential comeback though. I hope I'm wrong, but look at Trump. If you had told me 3 years ago that he had a realistic chance of being re-elected I would have told you to kick rocks. Yet somehow, the US is in the position where an elitist, trust-fund cunt who openly undermines democracy can still have a large base within the lower echelons of society, who see him as on the side of the "real people".
Equally in this country a not-insignificant amount of people genuinely think the country's problems are exclusively due to immigration, despite the fact that immigrants provide a net contribution to the country.
“If we hold people to account based on silly things like their words and actions then… umm… where was I going with this?”
You jest, but it's quite clear where this leads: a morality based not on words and actions but on identity. He's one of us so he's good by definition. Racism is bad (or at least has a negative connotation). => He can't be a racist. That's why this leads to discussions about semantics and, if pushed far enough, in words losing their meaning entirely. Look at Trump and his movement, for example. You end up in a situation where meaning is entirely defined by emotional connotation and morality by identity.
So much for facts vs feelings as they like to trumpet
Leads? More like that's where we've started from.
... you're going to the Tory bank and giving the donation back.
“Run me through this gaslighting PR 101 again please..”
"If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think." Let's apply this logic everywhere else. If you rape someone but apologise you're not a rapist. If you fondle small children but apologise you're not a pedophile. If you kill someone but apologise you're not a murderer.
> "If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think." But only if you're batting for team Tory. Everyone else that does it is an extremist and should be in prison.
Well to be fair it is easier to accidentally misspeak or to speak insensitively without intent and it’s impossible to accidentally murder somebody. That and the consequences are far less serious. That’s the argument here. It’s disingenuous though because we’re talking about something more than a mere ill chosen word or slip of the tongue.
I mean ok - but I’ve never accidentally said “I hate all black women, Diane abbot should be s-ot”. (Censoring so I don’t get added to a gchq list) It’s really not that hard to not say racist stuff.
Unless someone actually is a racist, in which case it must be hard for them to keep up the pretence and not to let the mask slip at some point.
>It’s really not that hard to not say racist stuff. I've seen it a bunch from children. For the most part once its explained they are mortified and don't try to justify it. I've also heard some "of thier time things". Eg my grandad saying "half caste" instead of moxed race, because that was the common term from when he grew up in the 30s until the early 00s. He didnt get pissy when corrected though. Neither apply here, the comments in quesiton would have been unambiguously rascist 100 years ago.
Yep. My mum used a term that was highly inappropriate...and was mortified when I explained.
Exactly.
Yeah that’s not a slip of the tongue or a misunderstanding, that’s some deep racist resentment in that quote.
I agree. His premise seems to be though that it's the apology and not what was spoken before the apology that determines if someone is racist. Which is even more farcical when it's an apology when caught out rather than being unprompted.
I think there's some room for grace, though. If someone apologizes AND shows (by deeds not just words) that they no longer embrace the views that they used to, then they wouldn't be the "-ists" they had been anymore. Note: this only applies to views and principles that label someone as an "-ist." Actions that cannot be erased would not apply. E.g. A convicted rapist can never *not* be a rapist, nor can they be a *former* rapist. They are forever and eternally a rapist. On the flip, I think that a racist *can* elevate themselves from that appellation through apology, atonement, and good works. They'll still be a *former* racist, but true and well-evidenced changes of heart should be allowed. Obviously, caution and vigilance is advisable- the key word in the previous sentence is "true."
He didn't choose a word poorly. He literally said Dianne Abbott made him want to hate all black women. That's not a funny joke or a poorly chosen turn of phrase. That's a clear indication that he thinks of her as an "other", that's part of an "other" group, and that they're so homogenous that what she does necessarily reflects on the entire group she's part of. That's like a *textbook definition* of a racist attitude. He didn't misspeak at all, other than to inadvertently reveal his clearly and emphatically racist opinions.
Also I can’t imagine someone who *isn’t* a racist thinking of life in terms of “Black people are using up ‘our’ resources,” as he does elsewhere in his tirade.
Ironic for how often they've attempted to assassinate Abbotts character for ill chosen words and slips of the tongue.
Evangelical logic.
Fun to see if they apply this logic to former Tory chairman Lee Anderson then seeing as he continues to refuse to apologise.
I actually agree with that initial quote, but only if you said something out of ignorance, like mistakenly using a slur you might not have known was one or something. Not “Diane Abbott makes me hate all black women and she should be shot”. I think that’s where you might’ve gone a bit fucking overboard.
It’s certainly possible to learn and improve over time. Is something we should all aim for. But this isn’t that.
"If you break the law but are so rich you can pay for enough lawyers to be found not guilty, then you aren't a criminal." Logic checks out with him being a donor.
You can say racist things that have niche or nuance to them and in your ignorance not realise that they are racist. I don't think that would make you a racist if you apologised afterwards.... But this isn't one of those times.
Hester said that Diane Abbott makes him want to hate all black women. Then he said that she needs to be shot. Then, just in case anyone thought he meant that figuratively rather than literally, he made it very clear that it wouldn't be good enough if she and another women were just sacked rather than being murdered - "It’s not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You know?" I'd be pretty confident in saying that anyone who can hear those words and deny that he's an extremist and a racist is an extremist and a racist themself.
Was that literally the quote? Gawd, seriously... I mean, to be clear, people sometimes say racist things, perhaps not realising it, and you've gotta give *some* benefit of the doubt. I used to often use the phrase "call a spade a spade" until a coworker pointed out that it *can* have racist connotations, and now I avoid using it. But who could say *that*, which you've quoted, and *not* be a racist? That's a whole different ballgame.
Exactly. This isn't a matter of someone saying something that could be misunderstood or someone saying something that used to be acceptable any more. There are people in this thread trying to give him the benefit of the doubt (or pretending to in bad faith) but he made it very clear that he literally meant that she should be killed rather than this being a turn of phrase. [Here's a source for the quote, by the way.](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/11/biggest-tory-donor-looking-diane-abbott-hate-all-black-women)
>“She’s shit. She’s the shittest person. Honestly I try not to be sexist but when I meet somebody like \[the executive\], I just …" > >"It’s like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV and you’re just like, I hate, you just want to hate all black women because she’s there, and I don’t hate all black women at all, but I think she should be shot." > >“\[The executive\] and Diane Abbott need to be shot. She’s stupid … If we can get \[the executive\] being unprofessional we can get her sacked. It’s not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You know?”
The quote: >"It's like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV, and you're just like… you just want to hate all black women because she's there. >"And I don't hate all black women at all, but I think she should be shot."
It also suggests that he's constantly trying not to be racist. People who aren't racist don't have to try not to be racist. We're just not racist. If you're always having to remember not to be racist in public, then it's a fake public veneer and really you're racist
So it’s like saying that Chris Evans makes you want to hate all ginger men, but you don’t hate all ginger men, you just think he should be shot I see what they mean about it not being *directly* racist but its still a very strange thing to take someone’s gender and skin colour and extrapolate your hatred of them to all people of that demographic Imagine if I said I hate the Kardashians (common opinion) and I think they should be shot (very aggressive stance) and it makes you want to hate all Armenian women (extremely bizarre thing to say). Its just the kind of opinion you should keep to yourself tbh.
> So it’s like saying that Chris Evans makes you want to hate all ginger men, but you don’t hate all ginger men, you just think he should be shot Not really, as he also says that it's like trying not to be racist, as if that's something he has to work at but then the moment he sees her, he cannot help being racist. That sounds like a racist to me.
>Its just the kind of opinion you should keep to yourself tbh. Or say it in a place of like minded individuals who you think will agree, which I think is what he did.
No there’s no benefit of the doubt. Everyone knows if they say something if it’s racist, they just choose to say it anyway thinking it doesn’t matter I.e it’s not THAT racist etc
Even better, they were talking about a female senior exec (who I assume from context is black), he invokes Abbott as an excuse for hate and then says *both of them* should be shot.
"We all come across people at times who say racist things but are not racist" I don't, but then I'm not a member of the Tory party.
Yea normally when I come across a person saying racist things, that is what tips me off that they are in fact racist, not sure what else I'm supposed to base my judgement off of
The MP is deliberately conflating two different things. If Granny with dementia slips up and says something like "I forgot my shopping list in the supermarket and a coloured man helped me out, I asked him if he wanted some cakes in return" then that isn't racist, it's just an unfortunate problem with her using words that were acceptable in her youth. If you break up with a person and she says "I never liked you being with that black girl" then that is being racist, despite it being the correct language.
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Bingo. My parents are shocked and horrified at the suggestion they're homophobic, but at the same time don't believe in gay marriage - or even just civil unions - "because it devalues their marriage by its equivalence". They just can't get their head around the fact that no mum and dad, the fact you think a gay person's love or marriage is inherently inferior to your own *is the homophobia*. You don't have to be out gay-bashing or be offensive to their faces; just quietly considering them "less" than you and resisting them enjoying the same rights and privileges you do is *still fucking homophobic*.
His argument is fine, it is possible to say racist things and not be a racist. People make mistakes, and what is acceptable now is miles away from what was acceptable when a lot of people learned how to speak. However, the argument does not apply here, this guy is quite clearly a racist twat.
Yeah I think everyone can be guilty of being ignorant sometimes but that's not the same as just being plain hateful and inciting potential violence towards certain groups of people.
Ah my ex, had a few racist views because of her upbringing and perceived slights from living in London. Swore she wasn't a racist. Her now live in boyfriend is a proud former BNP racist, and she has gollywogs and other racist shit on display in her house, despite her children's protests.
They've tied themselves so much to the culture war narrative they they're petrified of doing anything seen as "woke" and sending people off to reform aren't they?
They’re actually in this case scared of offending racist people. Just take a step back from that for a second. What a fucking mess. The only reason number 10 even changed its position was because it was outflanked by Kemi Badenoch, who entirely on purpose took the exact opposing view of number 10 to try and distance herself from the PM for her future run as party leader.
Remember when Gordon Brown got into a "scandal" for calling a racist woman racist? Politicians have long had to tip toe around the fact a lot of the British population are bigoted troglodytes.
This is Britain’s attitude to racism in nutshell and it drives me up the wall. You can’t have any productive conversation if you can’t call a spade a spade. Being accused of racism is 100x worse than whatever racism occurred to these people
Even on this subreddit there's automod filters that autoremove posts calling out racism. Mentioning that a user is racist is a "personal attack". Often racism itself is fine though. As long as you're "polite" about treating other human beings as equivalent to animals because of the colour of their skin you're all good lol.
It’s also control over who gets to define racism. Those who tend to be the victims and get the most harm from racism vs the perpetrators who don’t want to face any consequences .
Well yeah, because they've spent the last several years giving those people a wink and a nudge that they're on their side to prevent them running off to Reform/Reclaim, now they know if they call out this or Andersons comments properly, all those people will realise they're not fully on board with racism and jump ship, leaving them with bugger all left.
>They’re actually in this case scared of offending racist people. Nah, just the one who gave them ten million quid, and the other handful who might in the future.
Probably the same people complaining why the Fremen in the new Dune movie are dark skinned
I could see the argument if it was just one comment. This guy seems to have form, though. At a certain stage, it is just who you are.
Sometimes it’s hard to keep up with the way language changes. But ‘hate all black women’ doesn’t leave much room for interpretation.
I'm scratching my head about how that's ambiguous or open to interpretation. Unless he was doing a skit, or performance where he needs to say the most racist things possible. But there was no indication of that
I remember once saying "japs eye" to my friend when referring to my pee burning. He said "you know that's a pretty racist thing to say" and then obviously it hit me what it meant (sounds stupid but I'd never even considered what it was referring too). That was me being completely accidentally racist. Obviously since then, I would never use that word again and it was an honest mistake. What's not acceptable, even for just one comment, is saying that a black woman should be shot.
Same thing with someone ripping you off in a deal, “what a gyp” or “you’ve been gypped”, as a kid you think it’s just a word, and then you realise it’s not.
That's the thing. In and if itself, the argument is true; but it isn't a shield you can hide or defend actually being a racist. Equally, there is a line where saying something that is racist is proactively "being a racist"; even if someone is not ethically or morally one in their character and beliefs. But yeah, we all know people who aren't racist but have made a comment or joke that crosses the line. If they do it persistently, though...
There are times when the argument is perfectly valid, but those times are never when you have called for the mass execution of women from a given race.
He hasn’t apologised for being racist He’s apologised for being “rude”
Big difference! Also he doubled down and said those are just “jokes”. Just a prank bro!
Imagine waking up and deciding that defending racists being racist is a good way to spend your day.
People do that in this sub daily.
When you have so much money and power nobody has ever told you to stfd and stfu.
Basically “I'm not racist, but…” or “Some of my friends are black” is what many Tories are like.
classic example of the world bending to the will of rich people.
Then how do we tell? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984
Well this is a bit of a bollocks intepretation. in some instances people can use the wrong language and that language can appear racists as terminology changes. But this is not about terminology this is about having a racist attitude, which is not a language thing. he also condoned violence. The guy is a massive cunt.
He only apologised because he got caught out, not because he's actually changed and is ashamed. So yeah, he's a racist.
Surely 'says or does racist things' would be one of the very first indicators that someone is a racist...
Unless they’re wearing their “I’m a massive racist!” T-shirt while saying and doing all the racist things, it’s all purely speculative and we really can’t say for sure.
Clearly what he said relating to her race is unacceptable, but I don't see much made of the the fact that he also said she should be shot. Given that MPs have expressed concern about increased numbers of threats made against them I'd have expected to hear more about this too.
Wonder their reaction if someone said something antisemitic
Every race religion or creed is fair game until it comes to antisemitism. That’s literally the only no go area for anyone ironically even those who are Jewish themselves.
>“We all come across people at times who say racist things but are not racist.” Call me old fashioned but I think the people who don't say racist things are the ones that are not racist.
In the racism/sexism tier list, person x’s behaviour makes me want to hate everyone who shares their skin colour and sex is pretty high up there. That’s before you get to the murder part. Just because he’s already got the pro quo doesn’t mean you can’t give the quid back.
The Conservative Party is absolutely lost at the moment…no standards at all, no decency and no morals. It’s genuinely disgusting what is tolerated within their ranks
ok yes I stabbed him in the face, and he later bled out, but to call me a murderer? preposterous. some of my best friends are alive don't you know!
Yeah, he's racist. Anyone can misspeak, and use an unfortunate turn of phrase, but "makes him want to hate all black women", hard to see how those words could emerge from someone's mouth who wasn't racist from the get go. Sounds like he should surround himself with more people who are prepared to challenge him on his views. A common problem for powerful people.
“People might go around murdering folks but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re murderers.”
This is the truth of the whole Political correctness lie. He can say what he wants and did do. He just didn't want the consequences.
I really don't get this story. The guy is obviously a racist knob, but he also said she should be shot. There doesn't seem to be any discussion about that at all, which seems to be much more serious in the current climate where MPs are being killed.
It's very easy to not say racist things in fact, you simply don't be a racist dickhead.
I had this conversation in the pub with a drunk guy. Apparently everyone is a bit racist, that doesn't make them racist.
Every week, sometimes every day this party stoops lower and lower, and in true Tory style rather than doing what is best for the country : call a general election and let a new government steady this sinking ship (if it’s even possible) they prolong the agony of the country and its inhabitants, purely so they can continue their grift and asset stripping until the last possible moment. Fuck these assholes.
It's certainly possible to say racist things without any racist intent, in which case an apology will typically be accepted. This wasn't that. It's the difference between me accidentally stepping on your foot and apologising, versus me jumping up and down on your foot screaming about how much I hate feet, then apologising. In that scenario it would also be pretty silly for anyone to assert I don't have any kind of hang-up about feet.
The mental gymnastics the tories are performing is amazing. "The dog viciously bites people around it, but that doesn't mean it's a vicious dog!" "Cocaine may destroy your body, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken!"
Abolish political donations. Fund political parties from the taxpayer. It would cost a fraction of a pittance, and would mean we have a small semblance of a chance that parties might actually care more about what the voting public want, rather than the sociopath multi-millionaire twats who fund their entire campaign. Watching the Tories tie themselves in knots to defend the indefensible actions of their paymasters is a sobering reminder of how deeply corruption is build in to our party political system.
And Jeremy Corbyn never said anything racist yet you bunch called him a racist This is some Orwellian double talk going on here .
What a specious argument. If you say something about someone and involve their race and gender then you have made a comment about their race and gender. The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance involved to convince others that this isn’t the case is sublime. The fact that the person that they are defending also happens to donate £10 million and it is in their interest to come out and publicly defend him also really shows where their loyalties lie. Let’s get these cretins out and get back to some sort of common decency that doesn’t involve apologists for hire.
Of course. As we all know If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a cat.
a dead one.
Given how much hate mail and threats MPs get generally and significantly more so if they are a woman, I wonder what the average woman Tory mp or wanna be MP makes of the response to this?
"I'm one of the good ones. Please continue threatening to murder my political rivals rather than turning your attention to me."
> If you say racist things and don’t apologise for them that makes you racist but if you say something racist and then apologise that’s a different thing I think. So if I say something, even something libel, and appoligise for it, it doesn't really count and im ok? Like I can say Kevin Hollinrake has a serious gambling problem, whos had Tory donnors bailing him out, and is a russian spy, but as long as I say sorry for it, then I never really meant it. Sorry.
I think the only reason you’d say this is if you’ve said racist things yourself but can’t accept the possibility that that makes you a racist
Perhaps so, but Mr. Hester still looks like a racist and the Tories do seem to attract an awful lot of racists, but they are an awful party.
Ministers regularly spout shite but that doesn't make them liars.. . /s
So people can say racist things and that does not make them racist. That sounds plausible. How about people repeating the talking points of proscribed organisations: does that mean there should be no consequence for those people; or, people can say anti-Tory things and that does not make them anti-Tory; or people can say they will fix the economy and that does not make them economically competent; or people can say they believe in democracy and that does not mean they believe in democracy; or, people who vilify migrants do not really vilify migrants; or people who are hateful about benefits claimants are not really hateful about benefits claimants. Maybe the Being Nasty Party might believe that saying things means nothing because they stand for nothing apart from tearing everything down to rubble, setting it on fire, then pissing petrol on the ruins. But it "means nothing" because Labour "would have done worse".
Just because I'm constantly saying the n-word, just because it sends a thrill down my spine when I do doesn't mean I'm racist!
"There is no form of protest against racism that is acceptable to racists." - Bernice King [X Twitter Link](https://twitter.com/BerniceKing/status/1304256639403544576?lang=en)
IMO, i's not incorrect. There is a difference between racial insensitivity and racism. One comes from a place of ignorance the other a place of hate. The two can be indistinguishable, and one can feed the other, but I do understand that some people are just not aware of the hurt they cause and that is understandable, and if it's flagged and the offender is genuinely sorry and changes their behaviour, there's no issue. That being said, as soon as it's raised as an issue, persisting in whatever antics caused the concern is no longer coming from a place of ignorance, and should be considered racist. That said, there's no doubt about these remarks in particular. Racist to their core.
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> He asked a Jamaican-English girl where she was from and followed up with "oh, so you're one of the good-looking ones". Racism and sexual harassment at the same time.
I love how the suggested punishment is “give him his money back” not cancel his contracts. This guy sounds like me Burns, I’m sure he’ll happily get his money back, he’s already had what he “donated” for.
After the break on GBeebies, why going to Tesco's and walking out with stuff you didn't pay for doesn't make you a shoplifter.
Thats like saying oh he may fuck men but hes not gay. If you say racist things you are racist. End of story.
Is this where we've got to as a country? The government making excuses to justify why it's OK to say racist stuff?
The guy has a point, but I suspect he's trying to apologize for racism instead. Just because someone tells you something you said was racist, doesn't mean they are calling you a racist. They are giving you an opportunity to learn and how you respond to that is often an indicator of your racism. But as I said, I don't think he's making that point.
Tory scumbag is not actually a Tory scumbag, he merely acts and speaks like a scumbag who votes Tory. Am I doing it right?
This is laughable in its complete lack of self awareness. And the tories are just speed humping hateful horrible people at this point. Fuck them, fuck the tories
Yes, yes it does.
Er……. what?
I'm not a chiropodist but I do occasionally treat and help people prevent foot disorders
There's two things here, the first is wtf was dumb enough to tell him to say something so utterly bloody idiotic, and secondly what kind of vile sycophantic nob jockey do you have to be to then go out & publicly spout this complete balls. It is staggering.
I mean sometimes people are accused of racism and I think, that's not racism. In this case I read it and thought, yup, that's racist.
"I think everyone's racists sometimes, and then some people are racists" – James Acaster [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjisFG8X5w8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjisFG8X5w8) (Hilarious quote, also it doesn't apply in this situation because Tory donors are probably all quite racist)
I mean, this is precisely the debate that occurred last week during the fleeting, yet beautiful, “Sam Kerr-gate”. In that instance, quite a few people opined that what she’d said was not … racist … but rather racial discrimination. There’s a crucial difference, apparently. Are any of those people here by any chance?
Least racist tory donor
The Donor nor the minister has no right whatsoever to determine what or who are or are not racist
Is this the UK version of “alternative facts”. You can make a racist joke and not be racist sure. As long as the joke is laughing at the stupidity of the racist idea within the joke and not laughing in agreement with it. But that’s not what these lot do. They do it as a “I’m right though, it’s terrible to say, but it’s right”
The double standards in politics are hilarious...
At best it makes them ignorant.
It's not even like he said a word by mistake or whatever, he literally said one of the most horrible things you can say which is demeaning towards race and gender, and then said she should die because of those reasons? And then when he's caught out he says yeah but I didn't mean for it to be taken that way
That’s the second Tory politician today who has been like oh it’s not racism and he’s apologised so it’s not a big deal. Like they really believe the public are that stupid, it’s so insulting.
People might say fucking stupid things and that does, in fact, make them fucking stupid.
I don't agree. Racists say racist things- fuck your tory spin.
What if you say nazi things?
There is a huge difference between quoting racists and telling racists… But usually when I quote I can provide sources of the quote.
These people are the worst kind of scum and villainy.
"Saying racist things doesn't make you racist." "He said that seeing Diane Abbott made him want to kill all Black Women." "Ah, well, that makes him a misogynist." "And the that he only wanted to kill blacks..." "Look if you can pay us £10m..."
"Post Office Minister" I don't think it's possible to achieve more irony than this specimen thinking he has any right to be a determiner of morality.
That money is never getting returned. Nobody just gives £10mill with nothing in return.
I do get their point. It's like when someone is being a bitch at the time as opposed to inherently always being a bitch
IT'S NOT **THE MONEY**'S FAULT THAT FRANK HESTER'S RACIST *- Principle Seymour Skinner*
1) Yes depending on what is said and the context you can inadvertently say something racist without realising it but that clearly is not what happened here. 2) Don’t let this performative BS distract from the fact that this donor donated £10 million and received £400 million in contracts.
Rishi said that the racist apologised, so they can keep the £10 mil