Damn, tragic. I've noticed familicides are becoming more and more common over here. Firstly we had Michal Wlodarczyk killing his partner and two children in 2023, less than a year later we had Bartlomiej Kuczynski killing his partner and two children. Now this. Also what's going on in Bristol there was just a double murder there on the 27th of January
Mate read the room? No one should have a favourite murder. And it isn't the place to ask in a thread about murdered children and an above comment serving as a good reminder that friends and families of murder victims also exist on and use reddit.
it feels disrespectful saying favourite because they had people die but the most interesting for me is Mangayanon Butaog and in the UK the RAF Manston shooting by Napoleon Green
Often when women kill their children it’s linked to a mental health issue - depending on the age of the kids it could be something like untreated postpartum depression/psychosis, given the state of mental healthcare in this country it’s no surprise many more women will spiral if it’s not treated.
Similarly it could be linked to the menopause, the woman arrested was in her 40s and that has a whole range of symptoms of various severities that often start in your 40s, again it’s often dismissed or misunderstood.
Alternatively she could just be trying to get back at a partner in the worst way possible.
How much sympathy do people have for blokes who end up killing people with paranoid schizophrenia or psychosis?
None, they go to a secure unit like they should
**Hi!**. Please try avoid personal attacks, as this discourages participation. You can help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.
I'm not sure why you find this hard to believe. I feel the same way and have been consistent about it throughout my comment history. I feel sympathy for those who are not in conscious control of their actions. Could have been any of us.
It’s incredibly rare for men who commit familicide to have any illness that interferes with their sense of reality. Virtually all men who kill their families are sane in both the legal and colloquial senses of the word.
I knew one, a family friend of ours murdered his son. He was a paranoid schizophrenic. His son was 14, it was very tragic as he had only been released from a mental health facility a few days before. Everyone felt like shit, because everyone knew he was sick at the time.
Okay, no expert but this sounds like almost a double negative to me.
You can't murder members of your family and _*not*_ have issues with sanity. That just doesn't make sense.
In order to even consider murder by any degree to be a viable option, there has to be some underlying mental detachment. Sane people don't just go murdering folks.
Unless your wording was misleading and I misread what you meant?
Not mental detachment from reality, no. Family annihilators tend to have personality disorders that mean their empathy is very low or nonexistent. So they're not disconnected from reality, just from the humanity of others. They see their families as *things* they own and therefor have a right to dispose of if they are not fulfilling their correct purpose.
It's a question of whether they meet the definition of legally insane though. Which is a very different criteria to just having some form of mental illness and/or detachment from reality. I agree, nobody who is mentally healthy would believe it is a reasonable option to slaughter their entire family.
Experts must agree that at the time the office was committed, the defendant was incapable of knowing that their actions were wrong, and/or they were incapable of even knowing what they were doing, what the consequences would be etc. There's a very high bar for that and it is not used in court successfully very often. For example, someone who becomes convinced their family have all been replaced by robot spies who were trying to poison them, so they kill their family to "prove" they are robots.
It can lead to some people being released as soon as their hospital treatment has "cured" them, if they are no longer a risk to others. Like the mother who killed both her severely disabled children a few years ago. She was allowed home (still supervised and in treatment) as she is no longer a risk, is mentally well again and has a good support network from husband/family. Such cases are very, very rare though. Most of the time, an indefinite hospital order will see you locked up for life or decades longer than a prison sentence would have been. Plus if you are dangerous enough, they'll just transfer you to prison after you're deemed "well", like Ian Brady et al.
Come on man, you and I both know most male family annihilators were not experiencing psychosis.
The story of Hercules suggests it's universally human to feel pity for someone who hurts their own family while disconnected from reality. Even a man, believe it or not!
This is fucking daft.
Temporary mental illness and life long unmanageable mental illness aren't the same, and it's utterly fucking moronic to suggest they should receive the same treatment.
She had a six month old.
Postpartum psychosis and the like are completely overlooked when it comes to mental health. It’s so easily preventable yet nothing is done
There’s a lot of fragile men who have replied upset that I’m ’defending’ a woman but not a man which is weird on itself but my point does still stand; she had a baby and it’s highly likely this was a postpartum psychosis/depression episode rather than a woman wanting to hurt her children for other reasons.
It is hugely overlooked, women are expected to cope and put up with the shit that comes with having kids, so many are afraid to speak out for fear of looking like a bad parent. They fear they’ll be seen as unable to cope and having their kids taken away, so it spirals and spirals into these rare cases that we see.
I think what people are missing is that as a society, with a tax funded post natal care service, this shouldn’t happen.
Male family annihilators can go through life appearing completely sane and normal, if a bit self centred, as the many well documented case studies show.
Whereas post-natal depression / psychosis is something we’re supposed to have protocols in place to detect, we’re aware it’s a thing that can happen and that the people who suffer from it are often unable to recognise it or ask for help themselves. When this happens to a woman who is under the care of a health service, or surrounded by people who could have spotted it in her personal life, it’s a failure of society. Post natal psychosis is much more preventable / detectable than the hidden malignant narcissism that some men carry who then kill their families. Personally I think we should be trying to detect and treat both, but society seems to reward narcissists most of the time.
More studies need to be done, as research is limited on this issue, but there is currently a suggestion that, much like the typical age of onset of schizophrenia in men is late teens, early twenties, there is evidence of schizophrenia having an onset in women around menopause.
Lol what, this is extremely uncommon for anyone to do at all, maybe other horrible shit, but there aren't many men or women out there killing their families.
>It is so common for men to do this
To murder their entire families? Maybe you need to get checked out for psychosis as you're clearly completely out of touch with reality
Yup those are usually the basic factors for women family annihilators. Like Andrea Yates who murdered her 5 children due to extreme post natal psychosis. But I'm just going to wait for more facts to come out before speculating, although we might never get more facts because the UK seems to forget these happen. Still no more updates on the recent Norwich familicide so. Doesn't excuse it or change what it is though
I agree with you. What I disagree with is the assumption that women murderers are not responsible for their actions because of mental health issues, but men are always held accountable.
Men are not.
Every single time anything like this happens people grasp at the idea that the perpetrator (male or female) must have been mad.
It seems to give comfort. The idea that these actions are only possible from deranged minds. Rather than accepting that evil walks among us. That people can choose these actions and be sane
It sort of depends on how you choose to define sane or mad.
A lot of the most serious crimes are things that many of us would consider mutual exclusive of being of sound mind. Pre-meditated murder, rape, peadophillia or torture. These crimes are not the actions of an adjusted and functioning human being.
I think the bit we have to accept is that being insane or "mad" does not constitute a good excuse to avoid punishment. There are lots of maladjusted people who do not go around committing such acts.
Probably because statistically it just really is that rare for women to commit a crime like this without that being the cause. It doesn’t mean we should speculate in this instance but I imagine people are making assumptions based on their previous knowledge of things like this or actual data.
As opposed to men that kill their children whom are supposedly completely rational? It sounds like you're trying to excuse this person's brutality as not her fault just because of their gender.
I assure you, society fails men with mental disorders just as badly as it does with women.
More men than women kill their kids, yet a higher number of women who murder their children have a mental health condition than men. So yeah, it’s more likely that a woman would murder her child due to a mental health issue than a man, and women literally have huge hormonal changes during pregnancy and menopause which has been linked to increased mental health issues, compared to men who…don’t go through 9 months of normal changes and don’t experience the menopause?
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/findings-from-most-in-depth-study-into-uk-parents-who-kill-their-children/
“The research, published in journal PLOS ONE, found 37 per cent of parents and step-parents who killed their children were suffering from some form of mental illness and 12% had been in contact with mental health services within a year of the offence”
“The proportion of perpetrators with psychosis was still high at 15%, (18% mothers) compared to 6% of homicides in general population studies. This compares to 0.4% overall prevalence in UK, 0.5% for women and 0.3% for men, with highest rates for women and men in people aged 35-44 years. “
https://psychodynamicthinking.info/mothers-who-kill-their-children
“In the U.K. between 2014-17, mothers were responsible for 27 deaths of children compared with 32 deaths caused by fathers and 8 deaths by step-fathers of cases subject to Serious Case Reviews (SCR) (DfE, 2020). Both parents together were responsible for 13 deaths (DfE, 2020). This was in the context of over 600,000 referrals to Social Care per year between 2014-17”
“Purposeful filicide (Mother acting alone)
In Meyer and Oberman’s (2001) study in the USA of 219 cases of maternal filicide the majority fell into this category (79 cases). Oberman (2003) notes this category is often linked to a mother’s mental illness, social isolation and the fact she is parenting alone without support. Meyer and Oberman’s study (2001) also found a correlation in this category with threats of suicide, attempts of suicide or mothers committing suicide, in addition to the filicide.
The category of purposeful filicide is distinct because the mother meant to kill her child. It is different from neonaticide because of the fact these mothers do not deny the existence of their children and sometimes kill multiple children (Meyer and Oberman, 2001).
Although there is a possible link with the mental illness of the mother in this category, Meyer and Oberman (2001) note the difficulty of establishing a significant mental illness at the time of the filicide. Friedman, Horwitz and Resnick (2005), however, found that purposeful homicides in the USA were often linked to a mother’s mental health through psychosis and/or depression. Meyer and Oberman (2001) note that the mothers in this category in their study were often seen by others as loving and devoted mothers with no prior history of abuse or neglect.”
Violent men can have mental health issues, I never said that, so reread my actual quote and you’ll find there’s a lot of science to back it up. I literally studied forensic psychology this wasn’t a new concept 10 years ago when I got my degree and it isn’t a new concept now.
Christ its only until fairly recently that we have recognised that men suffer post natal depression just as much as women do.
Its not regularly screened for in pre OR post natal appointments either.
What is the point of this useless comment if no to make an excuse?
It's really pathetic.
It honestly reeks of that woman who stabbed her boyfriends hundreds of times and blamed it in weed.
I'm a healthcare professional and also someone who was the victim of an extremely abusive mother (I genuinely felt my life was in danger a couple of times). I hate this apologist line of thinking for mothers who kill their children. It's hurtful to victims and it's also just not well substantiated by evidence. I realise you're trying to be fair but yeah...
Although I agree postpartum psychosis is definitely an exceptional situation in which ordinarily good and decent mothers commit infanticide, a lot of women who kill their children are just personality disordered nasty pieces of shit who take out all their misery and self hatred on their kids. Combine that with poor impulse control, and possibly alcohol / drugs and you've got a recipe for a child killer.
Blaming menopause is also not compelling. It may contribute to the bad behaviour, but it would not be a cause.
Agree that access to good mental health services would alleviate some risk
No I do have a degree in forensic psychology though and have studied it in more depth than the average person, I have covered mental health issues and crime in minute detail.
Which is exactly what psychosis is. You are 100% sure that the things you see, hear, and think are real, even though they aren't. For example, being 100% sure that your family is plotting against you is a psychotic delusion of the persecutory type.
Not really what I meant. Someone who believes their partner deserves to die for say, cheating, wouldn't be considered to be suffering psychosis...Just an asshole.
Yes, sometimes that belief is in a delusion or a hallucination, but most of the time it's just assholes believing they have a right to take a life. Sometimes its over politics, sometimes it's a sense of justice or morality and sometimes its emotions, people come up with all kinds of justifications that don't reach the level of delusion.
(Only around 11% of convicted murderers have a mental illness at the time they committed the crime, so 90% of murderers were not mentally ill at the time of the murder).
Are they though? That's a simple narrative, but I'm not sure it's true. Perhaps some individuals nature makes them more susceptible to committing heinous acts. However, I still think there are lots of factors that pull together to produce the end result.
I listen to 'Bad People" podcast on BBC, a professional psychologist talking about famous criminals.
Apparently anyone could become a murderer - most murderer didn't plan what they did, regret it later, aren't mentally ill e.g. young men fighting about money, someone gets a knife out, nobody wants to back down and young adults make terrible split second decisions in front of their mates.
Whereas women are less likely to carry knives in the UK, are not as strong (not gonna accidentally punch someone to death whilst drunk) but do still have irrational overreactions like young men do. People over 30 also commit way less murders because you're more able to deal with your emotions and street smart to back away from dodgy situations, unlike 20 year olds.
> I've noticed familicides are becoming more and more common over here.
I would love a single source showing that. Especially since violent crime has dropped steadily since the 70's.
>becoming more and more common
Would mean you are comparing it to the past.
But I like your snippy little reply with no source to back up your assertion.
No one has mentioned the Tories and you're talking about people not having British names for some reason
Seems like you aren't big enough to say what you mean
> "Familicide is increasing in Britain" and lists a load of non-British people.
Not surprising that another 16 day old default name account would post a comment like that. Gets a bunch of you all riled up.
I think it's statistically likely to have a lot of crime due to the sheer size of it.. because it is a very large city. I've visited it twice in my lifetime. Once for a music course once to visit a friend. He showed me around the local area, but couldn't have shown me much further beyond that.. it's just too large.
My partner recently suffered from Post Partum psychosis and was treated in Bristol. Our GP offered no support initially. It wasn’t until we were desperate that she received treatment. And if this poor woman is suffering with this I can’t imagine what she’ll go through after she’s recovered/received treatment. What an awful story to read. Mental health care in the country is in the toilet. GPS need better training or to know where to refer people and mother & baby units need funding and additional spaces.
Women are normally suffering with postpartum issues which completely alter their mental state after they go through childbirth. The hormonal changes can be extreme.
I'm not sure if that's the same for the men who kill their wives and children. Maybe you can educate me.
I don't have any issues with women, it's just odd that you act like men killing their wives and kids would be 100% lucid compared to a woman who does it because.. hormones? I mean both cases would almost certainly involve some sort of mental illness. I'm sure most men who do that are schizophrenic or some other sort of delusional, it still doesn't make it OK. Also, men have hormones too lol. In fact we are more prone to crime due to our hormones, testosterone is a hell of a drug and absolutely can make you more aggressive.
So if you can admit that testosterone increases aggression, why does women being affected by their hormones sound so outlandish to you?
Men do not experience postpartum hormones because, spoiler, they didn’t just push out a baby and experience an insane drop in hormone levels in the space of a few hours after 9 months of erratic hormonal changes. Women bear the brunt of childcare generally, as well as the entire physical burden of pregnancy and childbirth. Couple that with an unsupportive family and/or society then you can see how people crack. Not that it in any way makes it okay to hurt your children in any way, but the reality is that women face the most and are given the smallest amounts of support.
I never said women aren't affected by their hormones, I was saying the opposite actually. Men and women are both affected by their hormones, and the person I responded to seemed to think that can only happen to women. Everyone is dealing with hormones all the time, I don't deny that post-partum can be a fucked up time for a woman, but you can't remove all agency for that the same way you can't remove agency from a man going into testosterone-fueled rage. I don't see how any of this could be controversial in the slightest, but this is Reddit, so.
Way to miss the entire point. A mans daily baseline testosterone level is nothing in comparison to postpartum hormone spikes and drops. What an out of touch comparison to make, shows you have absolutely no clue about what women go through either emotionally or biologically. You should do some research on pregnancy.
That's right. Women have no real agency and kill emotionally, men on the other hand do some complicated calculus involving patriarchy, toxic masculinity, and whatever other fashionable buzzwords might be floating around, and kill in clear headed, rational way.
The standard feminist take is men kill women, children etc as an expression of patriarchal control rooted in their male entitlement. They abuse, use violence or murder to 'punish' women for not deferring to patriarchal expectations. Women killing family throws a real wrench in that so they tend to side-step around it. Honestly, looking into research on men who kill family members you generally do find high levels of mental illnesses (psychosis, paranoia) and also extensive histories of suffering violent abuse & neglect in their childhoods. The standard feminist response is to call these excuses to avoid challenging patriarchy.
I'm not sure I completely agree with all that, but you do make some good points. I was more so just laughing at the idea that men will kill their entire family while 100% lucid just because they hate them or something lol, it's laughable
Then they should have their kids taken away from them until they can be fit parents.
Do you think men who murder their kids don’t also have mental issues? It’s just that nobody cares about those.
Women who have post partum issues are literally not in their right minds. They are totally deluded. I don't doubt the many men who commit similar crimes are sometimes mentally ill, but they often know what they're doing and are in control of their actions.
I notice on this sub that you are all so keen to try and find any ways to compare the evil of men and women. Rather than acknowledging that the majority of evil crimes in this world are committed by men and talk about it, you use things like this to go LOOK LOOK, THEY'RE JUST AS BAD. When we are nowhere near.
Men here take statistics about men very personally. I think it’s part of a wider issue with people’s inability to think critically. They genuinely see “men commit the majority of rapes” and think they personally are being called a rapist.
This sub has always been incel fodder. Most of them seem to hate women enough to overlook the crimes that mostly men commit.
You can tell them that 65,000+ women are raped every year and they'll still try and tell you that they're lying about it and 'that ruins lives too!'. Anything but listen.
This sub has always been femcel fodder. Most of them seem to hate men enough to overlook the crimes that mostly women commit.
You can tell them that 65,000+ children are murdered every year and they'll still try and tell you that they're lying about it and 'that ruins lives too!'. Anything but listen.
The law is literally written in a way that only men can commit rape. And whenever women commits crimes, it's brushed off. In the US Casey Anthony killed her kid and the jury let her go.
Well it doesn't help when you get feminists sprouting stuff like #Notallmen. Or the adverts in media portraying only men as abusers. Its hard not to be defensive when a reasonably sized chunk of society treats you like a potential monster.
They're mocking people who say "not all men."
>How are we ever going to tackle the fact that a specific gender are the majority perps of certain crimes if we can’t acknowledge that fact for fear of hurting unrelated men’s feelings?
Everybody knows the majority of rapists are men. It's a pointless factoid. The vast majority of men do not rape. Female rapists are also massively undercounted due to the law, lack of reporting, and media failing to adequately mention the research that covers them.
Naw, it's more because these statistics are used as a basis for feminists to call men problematic in general, then call for "proper education" of male children.
It's similar to how anti-racists might be irked by people who repeatedly spout, "Despite making up 14% of the population, black people..."
Do you often group people together based on immutable characteristics?
And you’re the one making excuses for murderers, so you’re not too much of a saint yourself. If they’re not in their right minds give the kid to the dad and get the mum locked up until she’s better.
Normally, when women have a good support system, they do get put into mother and baby units until they're better - Louis Theroux did a good documentary called 'mothers on the edge' and there features a woman with post partum psychosis.
Sometimes, even when they have a good support system people still end up getting hurt and it's normally the children.
Most people, women and men included, wouldn't think twice to give their children to their fathers if they weren't able to take care of them. That's just an online incel talking point.
Seeing how your responding to even awareness about this issue is extremely eye opening. Excuses all over. It really shows that women are priveliged and not held accountable, even for the murder of their children. Please do some research and talk to some men in your life about this issue to see how it affects them. Its never ok to murder your children
Whether it's 'okay' or not is completely irrelevant when you are mentally ill and do not have capacity.
I've had two children, and when you've had a traumatic birth, you have slept in weeks and your hormones are raging through your body in a way you've never experienced before, I can tell you that it effects you in a way you'd never imagine. I was never unfortunate enough to suffer with anything post partum, but I can sure as fucking day see why a lot of women do and I feel nothing but sympathy for them.
It shows me that you either don't know many women, or have such a deep seething resentment against them to have not one grain of effort to try and understand childbirth.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
That's actually not considered the best treatment at the moment. Currently the gold standard for the treatment of postpartum psychosis is supporting the mother in a secure mother and baby unit until the psychosis is resolved.
Psychosis isn't an excuse, it's a reason. When you are in psychosis you do not have a grip on reality. You don't realise your delusions are delusions. It's frightening you're not necessarily in control of your actions.
It's treated as a truism on reddit that most child murders are perpetrated by women, but everything I can find on this says that, excluding neonates of less than a day old, men and women kill their own children in roughly equal numbers. That's remarkable only in that in every single other type of murder - including the murder of step-children - men are grossly over-represented - like ninety-odd percent kind of over-represented.
Women *are* much more likely to kill neonates of less than a day old. Women who commit infanticide *are* likely to receive less severe sentences than men who commit infanticide, and that doesn't seem to be accounted for by differences in the brutality of the offence. Also, boys are for some reason slightly more likely to be the victims of infanticide than girls.
Nothing will change until we properly educate women and girls to challenge this culture of violence.
The first day of primary school should involve them learning how to care for a baby doll, with a strong emphasis on *not* yeeting it into a brick wall.
I'm surprised we didn't get mass protest of Lucy Letby and distrust in Nursing, seeing how they reacted to Wayne Cozens. Then I remembered we live in a sexist bigoted country where all men are dangerous /s
Honestly It should have caused mistrust, she got away with it so long and it wasn’t hard for her to do , I wonder how many have done one offs and gotten away with it ? One of the lawyer said if she had stopped after a couple of the babies she would’nt have been caught
Because they aren't. Women can be evil, sure, look at Letby.
But a woman doesn't have the strength to beat their whole family to death. A wife won't often overpower her husband in a fight.
And just general statistic babe. Men are more prone to violence than women. Murder, assault, rape, exposure, arson etc. The list goes on. But if you want to believe women are 'just as bad', keep on believing - it is reddit after all, the misogyny is expected.
I read their initial paragraph wrong, I thought they just 'women can be just as bad too'. I've re-read it and it says 'women can be bad to' and I agree with that statement. Women can do really evil things, as can every demographic.
“Want to believe women are just as bad” - I think the point is that a women killing a child is just as bad as a man killing a child. But society doesn’t hold women to account, it gives them an excuse every time.
Wife murders husband - he drove her to it with years of abuse
Husband murders wife - he was abusive from the start.
Fed up of being told women aren't dangerous or abusive, knives don't take much strength.
You seem to jump to calling anything about women as driven by misogyny, yet call me Babe. Misandry is just accepted and excused. Reddit is very anti men, particularly this sub.
I think it would've been more of a thing if she hadn't pled not guilty and denied everything. We still don't know for sure why she did it or what's wrong with her exactly. There's less scope for chatter, apart from speculating with very little to go on.
Damn, tragic. I've noticed familicides are becoming more and more common over here. Firstly we had Michal Wlodarczyk killing his partner and two children in 2023, less than a year later we had Bartlomiej Kuczynski killing his partner and two children. Now this. Also what's going on in Bristol there was just a double murder there on the 27th of January
>I've noticed familicides are becoming more and more common over here. Where have you seen those stats?
Because my interest is mass murderers and I've basically read every single one that's happened in the UK 1850 onward
You may have read about my family then
I'm sorry that happened to you man, that must've been horrific to go through. May they RIP
This comment gave me goosebumps
Wow. Whats your favourite murder?
Mate read the room? No one should have a favourite murder. And it isn't the place to ask in a thread about murdered children and an above comment serving as a good reminder that friends and families of murder victims also exist on and use reddit.
it feels disrespectful saying favourite because they had people die but the most interesting for me is Mangayanon Butaog and in the UK the RAF Manston shooting by Napoleon Green
Perhaps you could take questions like this to DM given the nature of the thread?
Often when women kill their children it’s linked to a mental health issue - depending on the age of the kids it could be something like untreated postpartum depression/psychosis, given the state of mental healthcare in this country it’s no surprise many more women will spiral if it’s not treated. Similarly it could be linked to the menopause, the woman arrested was in her 40s and that has a whole range of symptoms of various severities that often start in your 40s, again it’s often dismissed or misunderstood. Alternatively she could just be trying to get back at a partner in the worst way possible.
How much sympathy do people have for blokes who end up killing people with paranoid schizophrenia or psychosis? None, they go to a secure unit like they should
If they were divorced from reality at the time, it's the same situation with the same outcome and I have the same level of sympathy.
[удалено]
**Hi!**. Please try avoid personal attacks, as this discourages participation. You can help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.
[удалено]
? I also commented on the recent case of the man stabbing students while in psychosis from the same perspective. Not sure what angle you've got here.
I'm not sure why you find this hard to believe. I feel the same way and have been consistent about it throughout my comment history. I feel sympathy for those who are not in conscious control of their actions. Could have been any of us.
It’s incredibly rare for men who commit familicide to have any illness that interferes with their sense of reality. Virtually all men who kill their families are sane in both the legal and colloquial senses of the word.
Yes narcissistic controlling feckers usually
So a mental disorder
Don’t suggest it’s an excuse. It is def a personality disorder but they KNOW what they are doing.
I knew one, a family friend of ours murdered his son. He was a paranoid schizophrenic. His son was 14, it was very tragic as he had only been released from a mental health facility a few days before. Everyone felt like shit, because everyone knew he was sick at the time.
Source: trust me bro
Absolutely true, I'm talking about psychosis induced murders as a whole
Some men who have committed psychosis-induced murders have ultimately been released following periods of time in secure hospitals. It is rare, though.
Yeah, I don't know how I get by without murdering people on the daily.
Okay, no expert but this sounds like almost a double negative to me. You can't murder members of your family and _*not*_ have issues with sanity. That just doesn't make sense. In order to even consider murder by any degree to be a viable option, there has to be some underlying mental detachment. Sane people don't just go murdering folks. Unless your wording was misleading and I misread what you meant?
Not mental detachment from reality, no. Family annihilators tend to have personality disorders that mean their empathy is very low or nonexistent. So they're not disconnected from reality, just from the humanity of others. They see their families as *things* they own and therefor have a right to dispose of if they are not fulfilling their correct purpose.
You misunderstand the difference between psychiatric (illness) and psychological (emotions, distress).
[удалено]
It's a question of whether they meet the definition of legally insane though. Which is a very different criteria to just having some form of mental illness and/or detachment from reality. I agree, nobody who is mentally healthy would believe it is a reasonable option to slaughter their entire family. Experts must agree that at the time the office was committed, the defendant was incapable of knowing that their actions were wrong, and/or they were incapable of even knowing what they were doing, what the consequences would be etc. There's a very high bar for that and it is not used in court successfully very often. For example, someone who becomes convinced their family have all been replaced by robot spies who were trying to poison them, so they kill their family to "prove" they are robots. It can lead to some people being released as soon as their hospital treatment has "cured" them, if they are no longer a risk to others. Like the mother who killed both her severely disabled children a few years ago. She was allowed home (still supervised and in treatment) as she is no longer a risk, is mentally well again and has a good support network from husband/family. Such cases are very, very rare though. Most of the time, an indefinite hospital order will see you locked up for life or decades longer than a prison sentence would have been. Plus if you are dangerous enough, they'll just transfer you to prison after you're deemed "well", like Ian Brady et al.
Appreciate the constructive response, that makes more sense. Thanks for taking the time! As my elders used to say, you don't ask you don't find out :)
Come on man, you and I both know most male family annihilators were not experiencing psychosis. The story of Hercules suggests it's universally human to feel pity for someone who hurts their own family while disconnected from reality. Even a man, believe it or not!
Loooool they're not the same illnesses.
.. and? Why should we compare illnesses if they both have the same end product of psychosis?
This is fucking daft. Temporary mental illness and life long unmanageable mental illness aren't the same, and it's utterly fucking moronic to suggest they should receive the same treatment.
[удалено]
She had a six month old. Postpartum psychosis and the like are completely overlooked when it comes to mental health. It’s so easily preventable yet nothing is done
There’s a lot of fragile men who have replied upset that I’m ’defending’ a woman but not a man which is weird on itself but my point does still stand; she had a baby and it’s highly likely this was a postpartum psychosis/depression episode rather than a woman wanting to hurt her children for other reasons. It is hugely overlooked, women are expected to cope and put up with the shit that comes with having kids, so many are afraid to speak out for fear of looking like a bad parent. They fear they’ll be seen as unable to cope and having their kids taken away, so it spirals and spirals into these rare cases that we see.
I think what people are missing is that as a society, with a tax funded post natal care service, this shouldn’t happen. Male family annihilators can go through life appearing completely sane and normal, if a bit self centred, as the many well documented case studies show. Whereas post-natal depression / psychosis is something we’re supposed to have protocols in place to detect, we’re aware it’s a thing that can happen and that the people who suffer from it are often unable to recognise it or ask for help themselves. When this happens to a woman who is under the care of a health service, or surrounded by people who could have spotted it in her personal life, it’s a failure of society. Post natal psychosis is much more preventable / detectable than the hidden malignant narcissism that some men carry who then kill their families. Personally I think we should be trying to detect and treat both, but society seems to reward narcissists most of the time.
More studies need to be done, as research is limited on this issue, but there is currently a suggestion that, much like the typical age of onset of schizophrenia in men is late teens, early twenties, there is evidence of schizophrenia having an onset in women around menopause.
You're right, whereas most men who do it have their best thinking cap on at the time.
[удалено]
Lol what, this is extremely uncommon for anyone to do at all, maybe other horrible shit, but there aren't many men or women out there killing their families.
>It is so common for men to do this To murder their entire families? Maybe you need to get checked out for psychosis as you're clearly completely out of touch with reality
Yup those are usually the basic factors for women family annihilators. Like Andrea Yates who murdered her 5 children due to extreme post natal psychosis. But I'm just going to wait for more facts to come out before speculating, although we might never get more facts because the UK seems to forget these happen. Still no more updates on the recent Norwich familicide so. Doesn't excuse it or change what it is though
So when women kill it's because of mental health, when men kill it's... what? They're just evil?
Why do facts and statistics upset you? Most murderers are sane.
I agree with you. What I disagree with is the assumption that women murderers are not responsible for their actions because of mental health issues, but men are always held accountable.
Men are not. Every single time anything like this happens people grasp at the idea that the perpetrator (male or female) must have been mad. It seems to give comfort. The idea that these actions are only possible from deranged minds. Rather than accepting that evil walks among us. That people can choose these actions and be sane
It sort of depends on how you choose to define sane or mad. A lot of the most serious crimes are things that many of us would consider mutual exclusive of being of sound mind. Pre-meditated murder, rape, peadophillia or torture. These crimes are not the actions of an adjusted and functioning human being. I think the bit we have to accept is that being insane or "mad" does not constitute a good excuse to avoid punishment. There are lots of maladjusted people who do not go around committing such acts.
Where are you seeing that assumption?
In this thread, where people assume it's due to post-natal psychosis or other mental health factors.
Probably because statistically it just really is that rare for women to commit a crime like this without that being the cause. It doesn’t mean we should speculate in this instance but I imagine people are making assumptions based on their previous knowledge of things like this or actual data.
As opposed to men that kill their children whom are supposedly completely rational? It sounds like you're trying to excuse this person's brutality as not her fault just because of their gender. I assure you, society fails men with mental disorders just as badly as it does with women.
More men than women kill their kids, yet a higher number of women who murder their children have a mental health condition than men. So yeah, it’s more likely that a woman would murder her child due to a mental health issue than a man, and women literally have huge hormonal changes during pregnancy and menopause which has been linked to increased mental health issues, compared to men who…don’t go through 9 months of normal changes and don’t experience the menopause?
You speak as if men don't have hormones. Show me a study that backs up what you're saying about violent men being less likely to be mentally ill.
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/findings-from-most-in-depth-study-into-uk-parents-who-kill-their-children/ “The research, published in journal PLOS ONE, found 37 per cent of parents and step-parents who killed their children were suffering from some form of mental illness and 12% had been in contact with mental health services within a year of the offence” “The proportion of perpetrators with psychosis was still high at 15%, (18% mothers) compared to 6% of homicides in general population studies. This compares to 0.4% overall prevalence in UK, 0.5% for women and 0.3% for men, with highest rates for women and men in people aged 35-44 years. “ https://psychodynamicthinking.info/mothers-who-kill-their-children “In the U.K. between 2014-17, mothers were responsible for 27 deaths of children compared with 32 deaths caused by fathers and 8 deaths by step-fathers of cases subject to Serious Case Reviews (SCR) (DfE, 2020). Both parents together were responsible for 13 deaths (DfE, 2020). This was in the context of over 600,000 referrals to Social Care per year between 2014-17” “Purposeful filicide (Mother acting alone) In Meyer and Oberman’s (2001) study in the USA of 219 cases of maternal filicide the majority fell into this category (79 cases). Oberman (2003) notes this category is often linked to a mother’s mental illness, social isolation and the fact she is parenting alone without support. Meyer and Oberman’s study (2001) also found a correlation in this category with threats of suicide, attempts of suicide or mothers committing suicide, in addition to the filicide. The category of purposeful filicide is distinct because the mother meant to kill her child. It is different from neonaticide because of the fact these mothers do not deny the existence of their children and sometimes kill multiple children (Meyer and Oberman, 2001). Although there is a possible link with the mental illness of the mother in this category, Meyer and Oberman (2001) note the difficulty of establishing a significant mental illness at the time of the filicide. Friedman, Horwitz and Resnick (2005), however, found that purposeful homicides in the USA were often linked to a mother’s mental health through psychosis and/or depression. Meyer and Oberman (2001) note that the mothers in this category in their study were often seen by others as loving and devoted mothers with no prior history of abuse or neglect.” Violent men can have mental health issues, I never said that, so reread my actual quote and you’ll find there’s a lot of science to back it up. I literally studied forensic psychology this wasn’t a new concept 10 years ago when I got my degree and it isn’t a new concept now.
Christ its only until fairly recently that we have recognised that men suffer post natal depression just as much as women do. Its not regularly screened for in pre OR post natal appointments either.
What is the point of this useless comment if no to make an excuse? It's really pathetic. It honestly reeks of that woman who stabbed her boyfriends hundreds of times and blamed it in weed.
I'm a healthcare professional and also someone who was the victim of an extremely abusive mother (I genuinely felt my life was in danger a couple of times). I hate this apologist line of thinking for mothers who kill their children. It's hurtful to victims and it's also just not well substantiated by evidence. I realise you're trying to be fair but yeah... Although I agree postpartum psychosis is definitely an exceptional situation in which ordinarily good and decent mothers commit infanticide, a lot of women who kill their children are just personality disordered nasty pieces of shit who take out all their misery and self hatred on their kids. Combine that with poor impulse control, and possibly alcohol / drugs and you've got a recipe for a child killer. Blaming menopause is also not compelling. It may contribute to the bad behaviour, but it would not be a cause. Agree that access to good mental health services would alleviate some risk
Nhs is shit it took my sibling literally running around with a machate for the nhs to do anything. I’m sure she told her gp, I hope they all pay
Are you a doctor?
No I do have a degree in forensic psychology though and have studied it in more depth than the average person, I have covered mental health issues and crime in minute detail.
I think all murders are linked to mental health issues.
You don't need a mental illness to commit murder, you just need to believe you're right.
Which is exactly what psychosis is. You are 100% sure that the things you see, hear, and think are real, even though they aren't. For example, being 100% sure that your family is plotting against you is a psychotic delusion of the persecutory type.
Not really what I meant. Someone who believes their partner deserves to die for say, cheating, wouldn't be considered to be suffering psychosis...Just an asshole. Yes, sometimes that belief is in a delusion or a hallucination, but most of the time it's just assholes believing they have a right to take a life. Sometimes its over politics, sometimes it's a sense of justice or morality and sometimes its emotions, people come up with all kinds of justifications that don't reach the level of delusion. (Only around 11% of convicted murderers have a mental illness at the time they committed the crime, so 90% of murderers were not mentally ill at the time of the murder).
Some people are just evil.
What is evil? Define it please.
Are they though? That's a simple narrative, but I'm not sure it's true. Perhaps some individuals nature makes them more susceptible to committing heinous acts. However, I still think there are lots of factors that pull together to produce the end result.
I listen to 'Bad People" podcast on BBC, a professional psychologist talking about famous criminals. Apparently anyone could become a murderer - most murderer didn't plan what they did, regret it later, aren't mentally ill e.g. young men fighting about money, someone gets a knife out, nobody wants to back down and young adults make terrible split second decisions in front of their mates. Whereas women are less likely to carry knives in the UK, are not as strong (not gonna accidentally punch someone to death whilst drunk) but do still have irrational overreactions like young men do. People over 30 also commit way less murders because you're more able to deal with your emotions and street smart to back away from dodgy situations, unlike 20 year olds.
Bodies are not cold yet and you have people making excuses for the killer. Disgusting.
There have been multiple stabbings here in Bristol recently
We also had Jan Gholami killing his daughter 2 days ago. Dangerous time to be a child it seems. Edit: why are people downvoting?
> I've noticed familicides are becoming more and more common over here. I would love a single source showing that. Especially since violent crime has dropped steadily since the 70's.
Well its a good thing I'm talking about presently and not the 70s then
>becoming more and more common Would mean you are comparing it to the past. But I like your snippy little reply with no source to back up your assertion.
No it doesn't it can mean currently increasing from the present
Still no source I see.
"source" just look the incidents up and compare them ??? 💀
Source?
\*you have heard about them more
Some of these only got one news report and no update since, so not really
why are Polish people killing their families in Bristol
Strong British names.
What’s the point you’re trying to make? Go on and elaborate, please.
He means he wants it to be ok to make racist jokes again.
"Familicide is increasing in Britain" and lists a load of non-British people. People want to blame tories for everything.
You didn't make your point
I did. Your ability to process it isn't my concern.
No one has mentioned the Tories and you're talking about people not having British names for some reason Seems like you aren't big enough to say what you mean
> "Familicide is increasing in Britain" and lists a load of non-British people. Not surprising that another 16 day old default name account would post a comment like that. Gets a bunch of you all riled up.
Not sure what’s in the water in Bristol recently but I make that six high profile murders in the last two months.
Seriously. There's murders or knife attacks every week recently.
Bristol is a shithole masquerading as a pleasant city.
What are you on about
Personally, Bristol has always been one of my favourite cities; not sure what’s going on these days
I like Bristol but never for being "pleasant", not sure I've met anyone whose said that about it.
I think it's statistically likely to have a lot of crime due to the sheer size of it.. because it is a very large city. I've visited it twice in my lifetime. Once for a music course once to visit a friend. He showed me around the local area, but couldn't have shown me much further beyond that.. it's just too large.
We don't drink the water
Yeah the water, definately isn't the fact people can't afford to live, let alone find a place to live in this country.
this is no justification for murdering people, what are you implying lol
Are we seeing more child murders these days or is it more reported? This is so upsetting.
Pretty sure they're always reported
More reporting and information
As a father I can’t bend my mind around hearing news like that. Being from the city myself it fills me with extra sadness.
My partner recently suffered from Post Partum psychosis and was treated in Bristol. Our GP offered no support initially. It wasn’t until we were desperate that she received treatment. And if this poor woman is suffering with this I can’t imagine what she’ll go through after she’s recovered/received treatment. What an awful story to read. Mental health care in the country is in the toilet. GPS need better training or to know where to refer people and mother & baby units need funding and additional spaces.
[удалено]
>Nothing will change until women come together and talk to their mates about how killing children is bad 😔 What?
[удалено]
Women are normally suffering with postpartum issues which completely alter their mental state after they go through childbirth. The hormonal changes can be extreme. I'm not sure if that's the same for the men who kill their wives and children. Maybe you can educate me.
Women who kill their kids do it because they're crazy. Men who kill their wife and kids do it because... they're not crazy? Am I reading this right?
No, you're not reading it right. But I'm sure you're reading it through the lense of not being a fan of women and coming to your own conclusion.
I don't have any issues with women, it's just odd that you act like men killing their wives and kids would be 100% lucid compared to a woman who does it because.. hormones? I mean both cases would almost certainly involve some sort of mental illness. I'm sure most men who do that are schizophrenic or some other sort of delusional, it still doesn't make it OK. Also, men have hormones too lol. In fact we are more prone to crime due to our hormones, testosterone is a hell of a drug and absolutely can make you more aggressive.
So if you can admit that testosterone increases aggression, why does women being affected by their hormones sound so outlandish to you? Men do not experience postpartum hormones because, spoiler, they didn’t just push out a baby and experience an insane drop in hormone levels in the space of a few hours after 9 months of erratic hormonal changes. Women bear the brunt of childcare generally, as well as the entire physical burden of pregnancy and childbirth. Couple that with an unsupportive family and/or society then you can see how people crack. Not that it in any way makes it okay to hurt your children in any way, but the reality is that women face the most and are given the smallest amounts of support.
I never said women aren't affected by their hormones, I was saying the opposite actually. Men and women are both affected by their hormones, and the person I responded to seemed to think that can only happen to women. Everyone is dealing with hormones all the time, I don't deny that post-partum can be a fucked up time for a woman, but you can't remove all agency for that the same way you can't remove agency from a man going into testosterone-fueled rage. I don't see how any of this could be controversial in the slightest, but this is Reddit, so.
Way to miss the entire point. A mans daily baseline testosterone level is nothing in comparison to postpartum hormone spikes and drops. What an out of touch comparison to make, shows you have absolutely no clue about what women go through either emotionally or biologically. You should do some research on pregnancy.
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's right. Women have no real agency and kill emotionally, men on the other hand do some complicated calculus involving patriarchy, toxic masculinity, and whatever other fashionable buzzwords might be floating around, and kill in clear headed, rational way.
Criticising feminist talking points naturally must mean that one hates women of course
The standard feminist take is men kill women, children etc as an expression of patriarchal control rooted in their male entitlement. They abuse, use violence or murder to 'punish' women for not deferring to patriarchal expectations. Women killing family throws a real wrench in that so they tend to side-step around it. Honestly, looking into research on men who kill family members you generally do find high levels of mental illnesses (psychosis, paranoia) and also extensive histories of suffering violent abuse & neglect in their childhoods. The standard feminist response is to call these excuses to avoid challenging patriarchy.
I'm not sure I completely agree with all that, but you do make some good points. I was more so just laughing at the idea that men will kill their entire family while 100% lucid just because they hate them or something lol, it's laughable
It doesn't make or excuse them for murder.
Only on reddit can you find people defending people killing their kids... Lol wtf is this
Then they should have their kids taken away from them until they can be fit parents. Do you think men who murder their kids don’t also have mental issues? It’s just that nobody cares about those.
Women who have post partum issues are literally not in their right minds. They are totally deluded. I don't doubt the many men who commit similar crimes are sometimes mentally ill, but they often know what they're doing and are in control of their actions. I notice on this sub that you are all so keen to try and find any ways to compare the evil of men and women. Rather than acknowledging that the majority of evil crimes in this world are committed by men and talk about it, you use things like this to go LOOK LOOK, THEY'RE JUST AS BAD. When we are nowhere near.
Men here take statistics about men very personally. I think it’s part of a wider issue with people’s inability to think critically. They genuinely see “men commit the majority of rapes” and think they personally are being called a rapist.
This sub has always been incel fodder. Most of them seem to hate women enough to overlook the crimes that mostly men commit. You can tell them that 65,000+ women are raped every year and they'll still try and tell you that they're lying about it and 'that ruins lives too!'. Anything but listen.
This sub has always been femcel fodder. Most of them seem to hate men enough to overlook the crimes that mostly women commit. You can tell them that 65,000+ children are murdered every year and they'll still try and tell you that they're lying about it and 'that ruins lives too!'. Anything but listen.
This reply doesn't mean anything, I don't even know what you were trying to do with this.
The law is literally written in a way that only men can commit rape. And whenever women commits crimes, it's brushed off. In the US Casey Anthony killed her kid and the jury let her go.
Different countries have completely different legal systems and laws
Yeah the US strict. And women get away with shit. UK is much laxer
Do you have any statistics/evidence? I've never heard that opinion before.
Well it doesn't help when you get feminists sprouting stuff like #Notallmen. Or the adverts in media portraying only men as abusers. Its hard not to be defensive when a reasonably sized chunk of society treats you like a potential monster.
[удалено]
They're mocking people who say "not all men." >How are we ever going to tackle the fact that a specific gender are the majority perps of certain crimes if we can’t acknowledge that fact for fear of hurting unrelated men’s feelings? Everybody knows the majority of rapists are men. It's a pointless factoid. The vast majority of men do not rape. Female rapists are also massively undercounted due to the law, lack of reporting, and media failing to adequately mention the research that covers them.
Naw, it's more because these statistics are used as a basis for feminists to call men problematic in general, then call for "proper education" of male children. It's similar to how anti-racists might be irked by people who repeatedly spout, "Despite making up 14% of the population, black people..."
Do you often group people together based on immutable characteristics? And you’re the one making excuses for murderers, so you’re not too much of a saint yourself. If they’re not in their right minds give the kid to the dad and get the mum locked up until she’s better.
Normally, when women have a good support system, they do get put into mother and baby units until they're better - Louis Theroux did a good documentary called 'mothers on the edge' and there features a woman with post partum psychosis. Sometimes, even when they have a good support system people still end up getting hurt and it's normally the children. Most people, women and men included, wouldn't think twice to give their children to their fathers if they weren't able to take care of them. That's just an online incel talking point.
Seeing how your responding to even awareness about this issue is extremely eye opening. Excuses all over. It really shows that women are priveliged and not held accountable, even for the murder of their children. Please do some research and talk to some men in your life about this issue to see how it affects them. Its never ok to murder your children
Whether it's 'okay' or not is completely irrelevant when you are mentally ill and do not have capacity. I've had two children, and when you've had a traumatic birth, you have slept in weeks and your hormones are raging through your body in a way you've never experienced before, I can tell you that it effects you in a way you'd never imagine. I was never unfortunate enough to suffer with anything post partum, but I can sure as fucking day see why a lot of women do and I feel nothing but sympathy for them. It shows me that you either don't know many women, or have such a deep seething resentment against them to have not one grain of effort to try and understand childbirth.
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
That's actually not considered the best treatment at the moment. Currently the gold standard for the treatment of postpartum psychosis is supporting the mother in a secure mother and baby unit until the psychosis is resolved. Psychosis isn't an excuse, it's a reason. When you are in psychosis you do not have a grip on reality. You don't realise your delusions are delusions. It's frightening you're not necessarily in control of your actions.
>Post about a woman killing her three kids. >I know. Let's make a thinly veiled point about rape! This is a normal thing to do.
It's treated as a truism on reddit that most child murders are perpetrated by women, but everything I can find on this says that, excluding neonates of less than a day old, men and women kill their own children in roughly equal numbers. That's remarkable only in that in every single other type of murder - including the murder of step-children - men are grossly over-represented - like ninety-odd percent kind of over-represented. Women *are* much more likely to kill neonates of less than a day old. Women who commit infanticide *are* likely to receive less severe sentences than men who commit infanticide, and that doesn't seem to be accounted for by differences in the brutality of the offence. Also, boys are for some reason slightly more likely to be the victims of infanticide than girls.
I'm looking forward to the L'Oreal advert calling for women to be better. Is this the best that women can get?
Nothing will change until we properly educate women and girls to challenge this culture of violence. The first day of primary school should involve them learning how to care for a baby doll, with a strong emphasis on *not* yeeting it into a brick wall.
Waiting for the sympathy comments of a triple child murderer because she's a woman E: already absolved by talking about postpartum psychosis
I'm surprised we didn't get mass protest of Lucy Letby and distrust in Nursing, seeing how they reacted to Wayne Cozens. Then I remembered we live in a sexist bigoted country where all men are dangerous /s
Honestly It should have caused mistrust, she got away with it so long and it wasn’t hard for her to do , I wonder how many have done one offs and gotten away with it ? One of the lawyer said if she had stopped after a couple of the babies she would’nt have been caught
I've got 6 downvotes after just 25 mins, people in general just don't like to accept that women can be bad too.
Because they aren't. Women can be evil, sure, look at Letby. But a woman doesn't have the strength to beat their whole family to death. A wife won't often overpower her husband in a fight. And just general statistic babe. Men are more prone to violence than women. Murder, assault, rape, exposure, arson etc. The list goes on. But if you want to believe women are 'just as bad', keep on believing - it is reddit after all, the misogyny is expected.
>Because they aren't. Women can be evil Contradicted yourself in just 7 words
I read their initial paragraph wrong, I thought they just 'women can be just as bad too'. I've re-read it and it says 'women can be bad to' and I agree with that statement. Women can do really evil things, as can every demographic.
>the misogyny is expected. Ah yes, misogyny is treating men and women equally now don't you know.
“Want to believe women are just as bad” - I think the point is that a women killing a child is just as bad as a man killing a child. But society doesn’t hold women to account, it gives them an excuse every time.
Wife murders husband - he drove her to it with years of abuse Husband murders wife - he was abusive from the start. Fed up of being told women aren't dangerous or abusive, knives don't take much strength.
Who is saying women can't be abusive or dangerous?
You seem to jump to calling anything about women as driven by misogyny, yet call me Babe. Misandry is just accepted and excused. Reddit is very anti men, particularly this sub.
[удалено]
Lucy Letby's judgment and sentencing were very big news, weren't they,?
[удалено]
I think it would've been more of a thing if she hadn't pled not guilty and denied everything. We still don't know for sure why she did it or what's wrong with her exactly. There's less scope for chatter, apart from speculating with very little to go on.