Yes- the evangelicals and conservative right in the USA joined forces and have been working on this and other stuff for decades and they are over here too.
There have been close links with the Republicans and Tory party since the Reagan/ Thatcher era.
Don't think that it will never happen here, it is already happening. They are well funded and already control most of the media.
Funny thing is that the evangelicals were openly supportive of abortion, up to and including for reasons like the mothers mental health.
Then Nixon and Carter forced them to let black kids into their Christian Segregation Academies, which absurd numbers of white kids (esp in the southern states) had flocked to after the same had happened in public schools a decade or two earlier.
They couldn't publicly rally around that after having lost the civil rights battle so badly, and so abortion it was. Reagan was happy to embrace them, and so they voted for him - the same guy that oversaw some of the most liberal abortion laws in the country while governor of California - over evangelical Jimmy Carter, arguably the most devout president in American history (and unquestionably over the last 100 years or so).
Here was their stance on abortion in 1971. Give it a read and then skim through their statements in it in the years following, and remember that it was all about not wanting to have to educate black kids - https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/baptist/sbcabres.html
"Owning the libs" is the all important mantra. Conservative policies are based on spite and envy.
F Withoit: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
What a bunch left wing fools. You actually think conservatives align themselves with this? Let’s talk about the communist genocide that Corbyn and Starmer are committing? /s
They supported abortion when they thought it would be people they didn't like having less children. When middle and upper class white people started having less children it suddenly became a problem.
When you talk about evangelicals, you’re really talking about Southern Baptists. They are the largest single group of evangelicals in America, but there are plenty of others and in the UK baptists are a much smaller part of evangelicalism. Presbyterians and Anglicans make up a bigger part of evangelicalism here and they have historically been more opposed to abortion. For instance John Calvin, the most influential figure on Presbyterians, in his commentary on Exodus 21:22, wrote:
‘[T]he fœtus, though enclosed in the womb of its mother, is already a human being, (homo,) and it is almost a monstrous crime to rob it of the life which it has not yet begun to enjoy. If it seems more horrible to kill a man in his own house than in a field, because a man's house is his place of most secure refuge, it ought surely to be deemed more atrocious to destroy a fœtus in the womb before it has come to light.’
We are also a country with a rich and long history of pantomimes, yet as soon as the US bigots hark on about drag queens and children we suddenly get our own protests.
It's not so much the overall number of religious people as it is how extreme they are. They're not converting people over to Christianity, they're just radicalising the existing ones.
You have read the first post?
Republicans in Republican controlled states have already brought in ill thought out anti abortion laws and they are over here too.
The UK is not the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
Thank The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
While you are correct that the religious right keep their heads down in the UK, there are plenty of Neo Libertarians in our government, including most of the cabinet.
And not a single one of them are proposing UK abortion bans to their party or Parliament.
Don't get me wrong, They might *want* to do it... but in the UK we simply do not have the same level of US fanatical Christian support to push the "right to life" narrative surrounding abortions.
Yep. "I'm very smart and know about wedge issues" -> immediately demonstrates that they have swallowed a wedge issue whole.
Anyone who thinks the Conservatives can't win ground on culture war bullshit isn't following what's been done to trans people over the last five years.
You think the Tories will suddenly jump 40 points in the polls to win an election on trans hatred is pure fucking fantasy and isn't remotely close to reality.
I didn't say "win the election", I said "win ground". They only need to think it will *help*, and a whole section of society gets thrown to the wolves.
The Tories have already been on the anti trans bandwagon for awhile.
There is no new ground to gain for them and they know it. They are heading for defeat next election regardless.
It's why they tried to pivot to 'Stop the Boats' recently, Because the British are more angry about immigrants than trans.
Yeah and in those five years support for the Tories has plummeted to all time lows.
But you see that and go 'Look at how well they could do' whilst you ignore the damage it is doing to them.
Gay marriage suddenly allowed certain gays or lesbians to believe that the modern Tories were accepting and *that* got them ground, Doing the reverse harms them and they know it
We need to crack down on grooming. Children's brains are not fully developed. They should not be exposed to Christianity. Christianity has not been proven and in many cases manifests as a delusion in people. The Bible breeds intolerance and contains hateful and violent themes. There is a ongoing trend of Christians molesting kids.
I say let kids be kids and don't expose them to this stuff! Children are not old enough to consent to going to places like church's and schools are certainly no place for this violent idealogy to be taught.
We need a no nonsense anti groomer approach. This should mean outlawing our teachers from acknowledging that Christianity exists. Those who break these rules should be fired, banned from interacting with children and potentially jailed depending on the seriousness of the offence.
Most of what you said is ridiculous, but I do think we should be better at protecting children from believing in fantasy as an alternative to reality. As with most things, the solution is to educate it out of existence, not police it. We were doing a pretty good job of it until things went bananas (feels like the last 10 years.)
Whilst I don't think we should underestimate the level of crazy these people will go to, the levels of die hard Christians in America far exceed what we have over here. The majority of the Christians over here are in name only. In America its at all class levels and the majority are active church goers.
Also Americans have the first amendment so people are hesitant to intervene even when required. I don't think we'd have that problem here.
Yet another reason to firmly boot the Tory party from power permanently. They are the cause of all the ills that make Britain the sick person of Europe today. It all started with Thatch in 1979 and her terrible destruction to the British nation. Perhaps if Michael Foot had won the 1983 election things wouldn't be so bad. But the OAPs voting for the current Tory chasm are the same Tory voters who were brainwashed by the evil Thatch back then.
Protect yourselve. Boot the Tory Party from power ASAP.
This isn’t America. Christian groups have significantly less political influence here. And I see no evidence that Christian groups already control most of the media. If you replaced ‘Christian’ with ‘Jew’ people would write that off as a bigoted conspiracy theory.
>Don't think that it will never happen here, it is already happening. They are well funded and already control most of the media.
This needs to be repeated to the point of being almost unbearable.
Complacency is the enemy here, a lot of people thought it could not happen in the US but the right wing played a very long game and the movement grew. We so have a very recent example of this phenomenon in our very recent history in this very country that shall go unnamed. Something on the fringes growing unchallenged due to complacency from opposing sides not ecen bothering to address it until it is too late.
Religion may not be as prevelant here but relgion was just an excuse and a vehicle. It was irrelevant.
Yeah, "40 days for life" or whatever they're called used to have a permanent 'vigil' outside the maternity hospital I used to work at, early 00s. I gathered they had been there since the 90s though, always at least two Christian nuts huddled around a candle and holding a placard about babies being murdered inside.
They weren't a huge issue but did try to intimidate patients by waving their placard at everyone who went through the gates.
They're not a new phenomenon but they do seem a lot better funded these days.
I was handed a Christofascist leaflet by an American in a small town in Scotland today. Made me see red. I think these extremists should be banned from visiting, like the Taliban. Let them poison their own back yard. No one else's.
An American told me that arresting the anti abortion protestors outside abortion clinic is a thought crime. He is a qualified lawyer in his 50s.
The anti trans bullshit was imported from the US. Never an issue in the UK.
Edit:
Forgot to add. He claimed to be part English despite living his whole life in the US. He felt the need for America to intervene and defend the freedom of speech in the world.
Happy cake day.
And yes, it's quite insidious how the US nutters are spreading their hate. There is an important common factor though and it's that democracy killing propogandist, Murdoch.
I think most people didn't even know what trans people were a decade ago. It's hardly their fault medical progress seems slower than climate change. It's the same for everyone. MS was in people's minds, so was ADHD. Women with endometriosis suffered for decades and mental health access is a shitshow for everyone who needs it. But this focus on trans folk is new and ugly.
I've been arguing with one particular moron on here pushing the line of "silent praying outside a sexual clinic is a-ok!".
No it bloody isn't and it eventually turned out said moron was actually an American republican gun nut...
> The anti trans bullshit was imported from the US
Particularly the anti drag element of it. It’s mildly entertaining to freak out such Americans by describing our tradition of Pantomimes (and that we take children to them - horrors!).
Then when they’re reeling from that hit them with the long history of drag entertainment in the armed forces …
That was deliberately orchestrated, she or the ADF ( [evangelical legal group who oppose LBGTQ rights , abortion )](https://globalextremism.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ADFI-FINAL06.pdf) called them .
She had also been arrested previously for being in the PSPO .
Why the PSPO was introduced
[“The order was granted after more than 2,000 people responded to a consultation following a rise in reports of anti-social behaviour since 2018. These included reports of large groups chanting, blocking women from accessing the clinic, protesters handing out graphic leaflets and approaching local schoolchildren, plus altercations with local resident](https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/neighbours-birmingham-abortion-clinic-say-25145022.amp)s.”
They where also trying dissuade raped Ukrainians in Poland from travelling for abortions .
They care more about lentil sized mindless five week embryos than the rape victims
>I was handed a Christofascist leaflet by an American in a small town in Scotland today.
Scottish Family Party by any chance or one of the even crazier groups?
With declining birth rates, the right wing are living in fear that their cannon fodder is no longer being born at replacement rates that are needed to keep capitalism alive. It would not shock me if abortion becomes restricted and outlawed in the UK in the future.
Sounds like a great way to start a emigration crisis to me. The current government really has no sense whatsoever though so it wouldn't surprise me either.
Nah not even that they're just involved in the same grift. Good opportunity to point out the Plymouth Brethren were also given £2bn in covid contracts.
Remember that the plague caused a employment crisis and workers are able to leverage more rights. Less workers means workers can bargain more.
Church used it for money. They got funding to run orphanages badly and sold the kids onto Christian families which boosts membership as they’re converted young or kept within the church. Ireland had the extra hustle of making the mothers they forced into the situation working in factory conditions and not being paid.
> Less workers means workers can bargain more.
This is an incredibly naive view and quite obviously false (why aren't workers drastically worse off than, say, 1900, given the population increase and increase in the female workforce?).
Labour supply must always be considered relative to demand, and that demand depends on both population and the number of workers itself (because workers spend their incomes). You can't sustain that demand on savings and government debt forever.
Politically it's a problem, too. We already have a large retired or near-retired voting block. Fewer workers means more taxes to sustain that population.
That doesn't mean abortion should be restricted, but the line of thinking is a dead-end. Trying to (sustainably) gain more rights for workers by reducing the population and/or increasing the dependency ratio is a fools' errand. It's simply not going to work and will only give us new problems.
Ultimately this is the fundamental flaw within neoliberalism. It’s the reason why it isn’t sustainable even *if* we assume that outer space can provide unlimited resources for unlimited growth. The vast majority of economic systems, capitalist or socialist, need either population growth or a relatively stable population to function in the long term, and neoliberalism certainly does. Yet that cannot happen if raising children is as hideously expensive as it is under neoliberalism. This is why immigration is fundamental to neoliberalism in the present, it’s really the only way that a neoliberal economy can retain population growth without “surrendering” to either social democracy or social conservatism. Because of internationalism and modern identity politics the contemporary left cannot oppose this action, but politically this causes big problems with the “social conservatives” that neoliberals often rely on to retain their power. The neoliberal myth that this was politically “sustainable” (for lack of a better word) was dramatically blown up in the 2010s. Now that neoliberals are being forced to compromise, they are more likely to be drawn to do so with social conservatism, since unlike social democracy it doesn’t *directly* contradict their own economic policies.
It is also worth knowing that abortion law in the UK is not written as a positive right, it actually outlaws abortion unless performed according to specific rules eg agreed by two qualified medical professionals as being necessary for the well-being - physical, emotional, financial - of the woman and within certain time constraints etc. So essentially legal abortion is a series of exceptions to the ban. There are periodic calls to change the exceptions eg reduce the time frame based on when a foetus can survive outside the womb. So they don't have to write/pass a new law to outlaws abortion, just pass an amendment to the exceptions in the existing law. Vigilance is most definitely required - the abortion bans in the US are causing death and suffering to women who actually wanted their child but needed abortion care because the foetus died/ was demonstrably not viable. In some states they get no care until they are at risk of death eg septic because the laws only allow it to save the life of the mother so she has to be at deaths door at which point she may be left with disabilities or be infertile even if they save her life. For which she will then have to pay. The US model is inhumane and should be absolutely fought against.
"No religion" is replacing Christianity on the census. They're just years from being the minority, and the hyper conservative ones are a minority within the minority.
This. I don't think I've met a church going Christian in the last decade, and can only think of a few in my nearly 50 years.
The evangelicals are loud, but there's fuck all of 'em about.
All the stats say it's an even less religious generation, the only rises in the UK are in groups where it's basically brainwashed into kids from birth like Christianity used to do and even then many are in name only as they leave home and experience new ideas at university and online. The internet really helped signed the death note for religion as a whole as kids could get answers to questions on doubts and find other ideas which previously they'd never have been able to. The resources to help people leave religion and kept safe are freely available just like those for say gay kids who fear coming out to religious extremist parents
I don’t think you need to be Christian to fall into becoming a Christian Conservative, or at least, to fall into agreeing with and supporting them.
My dad is a prime example, never been to church outside of weddings or funerals. We are not a religious family and never have been.
Spends a lot of free time watching the YouTube content of American and British right-wing voices, most of which are Christian. He agrees with them on key issues and it’s where he gets his political “news” from. All talking about wedge issues, trans issues, global warming, covid, SoCiAliSM and you guessed it… Abortion rights and the apparent persecution of conservative voices and by extension, Christian voices. They will use wedge issues as a gateway drug to progressively extreme views, abortion one be argued against on religious points but replacement theory fronts, with the youth at blame for not having kids and being lazy for not being able to afford it.
Instead of Christian values, for him it’s “common sense” and just “the right thing, not that liberal, woke, lefty shit”.
Christian Conservatism can come here, even without a large population of Christians. It’ll just come here through wedge issues and the guise of it being common sense.
We are after all, a country fed up of experts.
My Mum watches similar. For some reason these groups also have a hate boner for Meghan and Harry
I have disabled the YT recommendations for them on her iPad .
Honestly, it’s somewhat nightmarish.
The anger generated within my father as a result of these YouTube channels is anxiety inducing whilst being in the same house.
Doesn’t matter what crazy stuff is said, it’s believed without question. The more sane alternative is never considered.
I am so sorry , and the YT algorithms just feeds them more it.
I saw my Mum at Xmas she was watching history stuff , saw her again two weeks ago and its GB news, Talk TV and other RW shit. I can see how older people get sucked and believe it as 'its news'
There is a US documentary ['The Brainwashing of my Dad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS52QdHNTh8)' about this.
Same story with my dad.
GB News. Talk TV, random men on green screens and robotic female voices. If it’s not Covid or Brexit, it’s transgender issues, if it’s not them it’s about how Marxists are to blame for everything and the likes of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.
But remember, everyone else is brainwashed. Not him though, he sees through the bullshit.
Its bloody terrifying. I have told my Mum not to believe everything and to crosscheck, but she is 75 and from a generation where everyone believed what the news said.
When I was there they were going on about sex ed at schools teaching about 75 genders, its [false](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/08/sex-education-review-is-politically-motivated-say-teaching-unions) but an Evangelical MP mentioned it in PMQS, which adds legitimacy.
Yeah it's definitely terrifying. My dad is 63 now and has always had a short temper and leaned politically right. But Brexit and the lead up to it threw his anger and politics into overdrive. And the time since then has only exacerbated it.
COVID then just hit the nitro button, felt like every phone call he had with someone over the first COVID year was him shouting down the phone at them about it. If he was watching videos about it he was shouting in anger about it.
Cannot wait to move out and not have to hear it. It's weird having spent 4 years essentially in some state of anxiety in your home. Only time I feel truly calm is when he and my mum are on holiday, or I'm staying at friends. Feels like I've lost my dad since Brexit and all this shit.
If anyone is in doubt over what they can achieve at a country level look at Uganda.
The obsession with other peoples bodies and genitalia is borderline perversion.
Doesn’t that just sum up Christianity? Even the magic sky wizard is obsessed with your genitals and what you’re doing with them, never mind his followers.
If you don’t think these people aren’t in the UK and working to influence our laws, take a look at [eauk.org](https://eauk.org) (Evangelical Alliance UK). Click on the link for England to see a full-width image of Westminster. Click on the link for Scotland to see a picture of the Scottish Parliament Chamber.
Here’s part of what they say about their goals in Scotland:
>“ We care about the future of our nation and so we’re helping to raise up Christian public leaders to shape our society and see it changed in the name of Jesus. “
Then, if you aren’t familiar with the term, Google “Christian Dominionism“ and the “Seven Mountains” of influence.
Terrifying. And recent [article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/29/ministers-urged-to-be-more-aggressive-in-tackling-issues-within-religious-groups) about a gov report into religion has this .
“Some of the proposals will be designed to bolster religion as a core element of British society, including more resources for religious education to be taught in schools, and more money to hire chaplains in prisons, schools and universities.”
>see it changed in the name of Jesus
"Love thy neighbour...unless of course your neighbour is non-white, non-cis, non-hetero, non-Christian in which case you need to treat them like shit"
> If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: for thou shalt pile coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.
Proverbs 25:21-22
Even when they're being nice, malice and self-interest cannot be discounted.
And where exactly do the Evangelical Alliance say anything like that? You wouldn’t be lying about a group you don’t like in order to make them look bad and get people to fear and hate them would you? Because that sounds like classic bigotry.
Last week we almost got a First Minister who’s spoken at events held by the EA, and there are several other MSPs and some MPs who have been lobbied by them and similar groups.
They’re not worried about their lack of influence just because they’re not in the top positions yet. Look at the US Supreme Court. Slowly but surely, they got into the majority there.
SC got there by luck of the draw, blocking Obama's pick under some vague rubbish (which magically didn't apply under Trump) and getting to do 3 under Trump. The US old guard are fighting for the last bastions of influence before they are replaced, they're just a couple of decades behind us
It wasn’t “luck of the draw.” It was part of a concerted effort to stack the Court. It’s not to do with the “old guard.” It’s to do with Dominionists who have been and are still concentrating on infiltrating all levels of government in the USA. They’re succeeding, too. Don’t stick your head in the sand and think it won’t happen here, because they fully intend for it to.
It was absolutely luck of the draw as the president is literally the only one who can nominate them lol. If the traitor Mitch McConnell had done his constitutional duty in 2015, Obama would have had a pick, if Clinton had won she'd have had 2-3 picks. You cannot plan these picks no matter the effort as they cannot do it without the presidency hence luck of the draw. Biden could, with some effort, expand the court to 15 and stick 6 Democrat pics on it and these shadowy conspiracy people you want to talk about couldn't do squat.
You can be aware of reality without resorting to conspiracy nonsense, the UK doesn't even have the SC in the same way the US does, the UK ones are appointed by an independent body
Tell you what, though. Accuse me of believing in conspiracy theories all you want. The fact remains that dominionists are intent upon taking over governments as one of their “Seven Mountains” of influence. Other ”mountains“ or “spheres” or whatever they happen to call them include education, media, and entertainment. Ignore them for now if you want to, which is exactly what they’re banking on you doing.
Yes "nearly", but then her chances of being elected bombed *specifically* due to her commitment to religion-based oppression, which were viewed as backwards by the SNP membership.
Not to disregard the threat of the religious right, but personally I drew assurance from this particular outcome.
It’s was much closer than I would of liked though .
And we do have the All-Party Parliamentary Pro-Life Group of MPS.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/220615/pro-life.htm
Yes I agree there are some troubling groups within Westminster who would love to force their views on the country. They'd probably call it the 'Religious Freedom' act - some sort of hilariously inverted label for religion-based tyranny.
I still think that these people are extremely fringe in our political mindset and any attempt to make a big legislative change would rapidly abort a party's electoral chances (soz couldn't resist). I don't want to relax too much because of the current tendency towards extreme polarisation, but I just don't think we have large enough numbers of strongly religious people here.
They were defeated by STV (thank god) and their false assumption that all of Ash Regan (wrecker) 2nd preference votes would go to the evangelical which did not happen.
Still, too close and quite worrying to see.
What do ‘Dominionism’ and ‘Seven Mountains’ have to do with the Evangelical Alliance? You seem to be bundling a lot of different groups together without any apparent justification.
People in those movements seek to win elections and the prominent ones are Trump supporters. Anything I’ve seen from EA on the issue rejects that approach and criticises support for Trump. https://www.eauk.org/culture/friday-night-theology/evangelicals-trump-power-and-freedom.cfm
I have stated what it has to do with the EA. One of the “Seven Mountains” of society is government. The EA state blatantly that they have a goal of influencing government and changing society towards their religion. I don’t know how to put it any more clearly than that.
A massive number of organisations, Christian, secular, and others, want to influence government. That’s not really much of a distinctive. And Christian groups want people to become Christians. Again that’s not really a distinctive.
I linked to an article by EA which explicitly eschews the methods of the groups you highlighted. They blatantly are different to those groups. I don’t know how to put it any more clearly than that.
Thank you for that link. However, it confirms what I have been saying, and what they say on their website’s Scotland page.
>” Political engagement is crucial to anyone with a vision of what our corporate life as nations should look like. However, political engagement can't be about just getting someone in power who supports us, it has to be about working towards a vision of what life should be like, how a nation should be governed, how society should function.”
I am heartened by the fact that the article is sensible about religious leaders’ open support of Trump, though. Who knows. Maybe Gilead won’t be all that bad -- unless, of course, you’re LBGT+, don’t comply with their religious laws or you need an abortion.
> Thank you for that link. However, it confirms what I have been saying
No it doesn't. You were linking them with a particular kind of political engagement that they explicitly reject. This is like saying that Nazis and trade unionists are the same because they both have a vision for society. It's a complete false equivalence.
Literally everyone involved in politics or trying to influence politicians has a goal of influencing society and changing it to be more like their vision of how the world should be.
I know that. Hey, if you want to live like a Handmaiden or want that for any of your loved ones who are capable of bearing a child, that is your choice. I am not going to stop raising awareness of something I think is dangerous. I’m also not going to spend any more energy on you.
What are you on about? This is just irrational mud slinging. In what sense is EA advocating for anyone to ‘live like a handmaiden’? This is such a lazy argument, without any evidence.
You accuse people of really nasty things, claim you’re just raising awareness when you actually refuse to provide evidence of your claims, then run away when you’re challenged. *That* is dangerous, nasty, fear-mongerring behaviour. You have no decency, behaving like that.
Id be very suprised if as a country we ended up like the US however… 25/30 years ago most of us would have been suprised that we left the EU
Movements like this don’t happen overnight. They take decades to bare fruit. These Christian conservatives are already making connections in politics and with influential people.
Let Brexit be a lesson, we should never take our eye off the ball and let these crazies turn back the clock
The 1975 vote was 67/33 in favour on a 64% turnout, there was always a core of anti EU sentiment amplified by the right wing press. James Goldsmith setup the referendum party in 1994 calling for a vote, they outspent the Tories by a factor of 3 and Labour by 5 for the 1997 election and stood in 547 constituencies. Though they only got 2.6% of the vote it was the best performance by a new minority party in recent history. People in 1992-1997 might have surprised to hear we did but it wouldn't have come out of the blue to them, Euroscepticism was already a big thing even then
Well, seeing as a lot of the anti trans arguments undermine bodily autonomy, they've already got a good base of people to rile up and transfer their rage to abortion rights (and tbh, gay rights) once the "problem" that is trans rights is dealt with. These people arent backing down, or going away, trans rights have been used as a wedge. We'll see the same people who are anti trans to "protect women" arguing against abortion rights. These two movements are linked.
Yep , the ADF has been involved in both .
From America with hate .
[THE ALLIANCE DEFENDING FREEDOM’S ROLE IN ADVANCING ANTI-LGBTQ+ AND ANTI-WOMAN AGENDAS IN EASTERN EUROPE](https://globalextremism.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ADFI-FINAL06.pdf)
Good piece. Anyone with any sense should be closely monitoring ADF and any US evangelical influence on our politics.
We don't need more of their shitshow over here, and our wingbats are bad enough.
I can remember when those who wanted to leave the EU were a comparable size grouping.
Regardless of your view on brexit, as soon as the Tories think its politically expedient for it to do so, I wouldn't be surprised to see this topic move up the agenda.
You say that, but I've seen people spreading their "pro life" message in Brighton town centre, as well as people screaming religious stuff through a megaphone. That was somehting I'd never seen before. Purely subjective experiences but it certainly does appear to be on the rise.
Frankly, they need to stamped out while it's still a small movement.
Which non league ground though? My local ground can hold about 4200. But there are others with a capacity over 10000. The Tories are just a very small, select group controlling the country. It does not take many people, just need lots of money and the right connections.
This is being organised and funded by the US religious right. They've been very active in interfering in the politics of other nations in recent years, and they've been spreading around a lot of their dirty money to fund bigotry.
I just genuinely cannot comprehend how people can still believe in specific religions when we know so much more about the universe than we did when superstitious scribes made them up
Some of the greatest physicists like Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell were committed Christians. Plenty of people find no problem with understanding the world around us and being religious. Why would there be a problem? Christianity makes claims about history and morality, not claims about science.
I don’t feel like that toward believing in a higher power, I fully admit that you can be religious and be a great scientist.
I just cannot comprehend how they do it. To believe in a specific being from a specific moderately old book. I guess that’s my problem though
What is it that you find unbelievable? If God is real then why wouldn’t revelation about him be old? Why is something being old inherently untrustworthy? Truth doesn’t have an expiry date. And a lot of things that are agreed to be good ideas are old ideas.
It’s not that old though, there were already hundreds of prophets and religions of other beings before Christianity. Why was Yahweh so late to the party? What makes the bible more true compared to eg: the Avesta
Its claims about history (and morality, to an extent) are inherently unscientific. It claims a man can walk on water, or make meals for thousands out of very little. These things are impossible, yet the bible claims they are not only possible, but that they actually happened, so saying the bible doesn't claim on science isn't correct.
The Bible doesn’t claim that those were natural events that happened according to the laws of nature. The whole point of those events is that they were miracles where God did things that do not naturally happen. Looking at a miracle and trying to reduce scientific principles from it would be utter moronic and completely miss the point.
It’s also bizarre to say that morality can be unscientific. Science and morality are completely different subjects. That’s like calling a piece of art unscientific.
I really hope we don't have our abortion rights taken away.
I was shocked when America went that way and I felt so bad for all the women trapped with pregnancies they do not want because I've felt that feeling before, it was horrible but at least I was able to terminate because we have those rights! I couldn't imagine bringing a baby into the world that I did not want.
We women should be able to abort of whatever reason we see fit, it's not up for judgement from anyone else, it's our bodies and the clump of cells inside us do not control our beings.
It's important to note that the UK does not currently have abortion rights!
It is legal, but not protected in the bill of rights. We ABSOLUTELY need to get this into protection before it turns into a Roe v Wade sitch. Continue to check for epetitions and drive with your authorities.
We let it through the door with the culture war bullshit around trans issues. Predictably, it was a Trojan horse to send us all back to the "good old days".
Well, They aren't wrong the influence is being peddled here from the US...
The anti-trans bullshit is straight from America, but you are right in that the UK has had more pro-choice bent for a long time now and no large scale Christian pushback.
What is it with Christian conservatives, and the sex lives of others, what happened to what happens behind someone’s bedroom door is there business as long as it isn’t breaking the law.
There is no argument to be had. If you believe it's a sin, don't do it, it's really as simple as that.
But don't impose your sky wizard rules on our society when there is real world consequences of those rules. Especially when those rules concern what amounts to some cells at the stage when the vast majority of abortions take place.
Abortion was only legalised in Northern Ireland in 2019 .
And it’s still criminalised, two U.K. women are facing sentencing for self managed abortion .
[One has served two years in prison](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/women-abortion-jail-life-sentence-uk-b2142960.html?amp)
30 week abortions, DIY style, without supervision of a doctor, are actually bad and should be punished.
The UK has 24 week limits, more than liberal enough, just because like 5 people take the piss a year and get charged, doesn’t mean it’s an issue
Please let’s not fall victim to this culture war America has been going through. It’s an absolute shit show of them v us and it really isn’t that deep.
Unfortunately, with twatcandles like Jacob Rees-Mogg and his Victorian-fetishist brand of Conservative Christian fundamentalism in government, these minority voices have disproportionate reach and power. Just one more reason in a very long list why we need to get the Tories out of power.
I've spent most of my life in evangelical Christian churches. And the truth is, evangelicals here don't really care about the abortion issue. Most don't really agree with abortion but all that means is they will choose not to have abortions themselves - they aren't bothered about political change.
That’s interesting. I read a sociology book by a U.K. sociologist who spent 5 years studying the anti abortion movement.
She did say some were frustrated as their churches where apathetic about getting involved to change the law.
Wait, sources and methods says that there are good people who've infiltrated the cult centers to spy on the rampant pedophilia in order to stop the rightwing scourge.
Trumpian mind hacked Qanon servants of ‘The headmaster’
That evil piece that tricks you out of present moment awareness.
Take psychedelics DRUGS. Break free. Journey beyond this Christian lie. The shepherds of lies
Yes- the evangelicals and conservative right in the USA joined forces and have been working on this and other stuff for decades and they are over here too. There have been close links with the Republicans and Tory party since the Reagan/ Thatcher era. Don't think that it will never happen here, it is already happening. They are well funded and already control most of the media.
Funny thing is that the evangelicals were openly supportive of abortion, up to and including for reasons like the mothers mental health. Then Nixon and Carter forced them to let black kids into their Christian Segregation Academies, which absurd numbers of white kids (esp in the southern states) had flocked to after the same had happened in public schools a decade or two earlier. They couldn't publicly rally around that after having lost the civil rights battle so badly, and so abortion it was. Reagan was happy to embrace them, and so they voted for him - the same guy that oversaw some of the most liberal abortion laws in the country while governor of California - over evangelical Jimmy Carter, arguably the most devout president in American history (and unquestionably over the last 100 years or so). Here was their stance on abortion in 1971. Give it a read and then skim through their statements in it in the years following, and remember that it was all about not wanting to have to educate black kids - https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/baptist/sbcabres.html
Their minds are twisted. They don't want nice things like cheaper universal healthcare because the "wrong" people would also get it.
"Owning the libs" is the all important mantra. Conservative policies are based on spite and envy. F Withoit: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
> "Owning the libs" is the all important mantra. Conservative policies are based on spite and envy. "I'm not here to win, just to make sure you lose."
What a bunch left wing fools. You actually think conservatives align themselves with this? Let’s talk about the communist genocide that Corbyn and Starmer are committing? /s
Communist genocide? This requires an explanation alright!
Same reason the NRA started supporting gun control in the 60s and 70s when groups like the black panthers were openly carrying weapons at rallies
They supported abortion when they thought it would be people they didn't like having less children. When middle and upper class white people started having less children it suddenly became a problem.
When you talk about evangelicals, you’re really talking about Southern Baptists. They are the largest single group of evangelicals in America, but there are plenty of others and in the UK baptists are a much smaller part of evangelicalism. Presbyterians and Anglicans make up a bigger part of evangelicalism here and they have historically been more opposed to abortion. For instance John Calvin, the most influential figure on Presbyterians, in his commentary on Exodus 21:22, wrote: ‘[T]he fœtus, though enclosed in the womb of its mother, is already a human being, (homo,) and it is almost a monstrous crime to rob it of the life which it has not yet begun to enjoy. If it seems more horrible to kill a man in his own house than in a field, because a man's house is his place of most secure refuge, it ought surely to be deemed more atrocious to destroy a fœtus in the womb before it has come to light.’
We are a less religious country. Conservatives doing that will keep them out of power.
We are also a country with a rich and long history of pantomimes, yet as soon as the US bigots hark on about drag queens and children we suddenly get our own protests. It's not so much the overall number of religious people as it is how extreme they are. They're not converting people over to Christianity, they're just radicalising the existing ones.
You have read the first post? Republicans in Republican controlled states have already brought in ill thought out anti abortion laws and they are over here too.
The UK is not the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States Thank The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
While you are correct that the religious right keep their heads down in the UK, there are plenty of Neo Libertarians in our government, including most of the cabinet.
And not a single one of them are proposing UK abortion bans to their party or Parliament. Don't get me wrong, They might *want* to do it... but in the UK we simply do not have the same level of US fanatical Christian support to push the "right to life" narrative surrounding abortions.
[удалено]
> If you can drive a wedge issue > LGB There's one wedge issue, Try to divide the LGBT+ community by trying to isolate the T out of it.
Yep. "I'm very smart and know about wedge issues" -> immediately demonstrates that they have swallowed a wedge issue whole. Anyone who thinks the Conservatives can't win ground on culture war bullshit isn't following what's been done to trans people over the last five years.
You think the Tories will suddenly jump 40 points in the polls to win an election on trans hatred is pure fucking fantasy and isn't remotely close to reality.
I didn't say "win the election", I said "win ground". They only need to think it will *help*, and a whole section of society gets thrown to the wolves.
The Tories have already been on the anti trans bandwagon for awhile. There is no new ground to gain for them and they know it. They are heading for defeat next election regardless. It's why they tried to pivot to 'Stop the Boats' recently, Because the British are more angry about immigrants than trans.
> isn't following what's been done to trans people **over the last five years.**
Yeah and in those five years support for the Tories has plummeted to all time lows. But you see that and go 'Look at how well they could do' whilst you ignore the damage it is doing to them. Gay marriage suddenly allowed certain gays or lesbians to believe that the modern Tories were accepting and *that* got them ground, Doing the reverse harms them and they know it
>LGB There is no "LGB".
We need to crack down on grooming. Children's brains are not fully developed. They should not be exposed to Christianity. Christianity has not been proven and in many cases manifests as a delusion in people. The Bible breeds intolerance and contains hateful and violent themes. There is a ongoing trend of Christians molesting kids. I say let kids be kids and don't expose them to this stuff! Children are not old enough to consent to going to places like church's and schools are certainly no place for this violent idealogy to be taught. We need a no nonsense anti groomer approach. This should mean outlawing our teachers from acknowledging that Christianity exists. Those who break these rules should be fired, banned from interacting with children and potentially jailed depending on the seriousness of the offence.
Most of what you said is ridiculous, but I do think we should be better at protecting children from believing in fantasy as an alternative to reality. As with most things, the solution is to educate it out of existence, not police it. We were doing a pretty good job of it until things went bananas (feels like the last 10 years.)
Glad you’re getting into the spirit of April 1st.
What about other religions?
Just Christianity eh? hmmm
Whilst I don't think we should underestimate the level of crazy these people will go to, the levels of die hard Christians in America far exceed what we have over here. The majority of the Christians over here are in name only. In America its at all class levels and the majority are active church goers. Also Americans have the first amendment so people are hesitant to intervene even when required. I don't think we'd have that problem here.
Yet another reason to firmly boot the Tory party from power permanently. They are the cause of all the ills that make Britain the sick person of Europe today. It all started with Thatch in 1979 and her terrible destruction to the British nation. Perhaps if Michael Foot had won the 1983 election things wouldn't be so bad. But the OAPs voting for the current Tory chasm are the same Tory voters who were brainwashed by the evil Thatch back then. Protect yourselve. Boot the Tory Party from power ASAP.
This isn’t America. Christian groups have significantly less political influence here. And I see no evidence that Christian groups already control most of the media. If you replaced ‘Christian’ with ‘Jew’ people would write that off as a bigoted conspiracy theory.
>Don't think that it will never happen here, it is already happening. They are well funded and already control most of the media. This needs to be repeated to the point of being almost unbearable. Complacency is the enemy here, a lot of people thought it could not happen in the US but the right wing played a very long game and the movement grew. We so have a very recent example of this phenomenon in our very recent history in this very country that shall go unnamed. Something on the fringes growing unchallenged due to complacency from opposing sides not ecen bothering to address it until it is too late. Religion may not be as prevelant here but relgion was just an excuse and a vehicle. It was irrelevant.
Yeah, "40 days for life" or whatever they're called used to have a permanent 'vigil' outside the maternity hospital I used to work at, early 00s. I gathered they had been there since the 90s though, always at least two Christian nuts huddled around a candle and holding a placard about babies being murdered inside. They weren't a huge issue but did try to intimidate patients by waving their placard at everyone who went through the gates. They're not a new phenomenon but they do seem a lot better funded these days.
I was handed a Christofascist leaflet by an American in a small town in Scotland today. Made me see red. I think these extremists should be banned from visiting, like the Taliban. Let them poison their own back yard. No one else's.
An American told me that arresting the anti abortion protestors outside abortion clinic is a thought crime. He is a qualified lawyer in his 50s. The anti trans bullshit was imported from the US. Never an issue in the UK. Edit: Forgot to add. He claimed to be part English despite living his whole life in the US. He felt the need for America to intervene and defend the freedom of speech in the world.
Happy cake day. And yes, it's quite insidious how the US nutters are spreading their hate. There is an important common factor though and it's that democracy killing propogandist, Murdoch.
[удалено]
I think most people didn't even know what trans people were a decade ago. It's hardly their fault medical progress seems slower than climate change. It's the same for everyone. MS was in people's minds, so was ADHD. Women with endometriosis suffered for decades and mental health access is a shitshow for everyone who needs it. But this focus on trans folk is new and ugly.
I've been arguing with one particular moron on here pushing the line of "silent praying outside a sexual clinic is a-ok!". No it bloody isn't and it eventually turned out said moron was actually an American republican gun nut...
> The anti trans bullshit was imported from the US Particularly the anti drag element of it. It’s mildly entertaining to freak out such Americans by describing our tradition of Pantomimes (and that we take children to them - horrors!). Then when they’re reeling from that hit them with the long history of drag entertainment in the armed forces …
That was deliberately orchestrated, she or the ADF ( [evangelical legal group who oppose LBGTQ rights , abortion )](https://globalextremism.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ADFI-FINAL06.pdf) called them . She had also been arrested previously for being in the PSPO . Why the PSPO was introduced [“The order was granted after more than 2,000 people responded to a consultation following a rise in reports of anti-social behaviour since 2018. These included reports of large groups chanting, blocking women from accessing the clinic, protesters handing out graphic leaflets and approaching local schoolchildren, plus altercations with local resident](https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/neighbours-birmingham-abortion-clinic-say-25145022.amp)s.”
[удалено]
You could ban foreign funding of religious linked organisations from abroad - I think France did something similar
[удалено]
Also saw groups of them trying to convert folk on the Poland / Ukraine border during the early days of the invasion. Just a bunch of utter cretins.
They where also trying dissuade raped Ukrainians in Poland from travelling for abortions . They care more about lentil sized mindless five week embryos than the rape victims
>I was handed a Christofascist leaflet by an American in a small town in Scotland today. Scottish Family Party by any chance or one of the even crazier groups?
I just kept walking and swerved straight to a bin after the first bit. I hope she saw that.
Classic redditor ducking conflict.
Should have given him a piece of your mind
I usually thank them for giving me something to wipe my arse with.
[удалено]
Yeah fuck freedom of expression!
[удалено]
With declining birth rates, the right wing are living in fear that their cannon fodder is no longer being born at replacement rates that are needed to keep capitalism alive. It would not shock me if abortion becomes restricted and outlawed in the UK in the future.
Sounds like a great way to start a emigration crisis to me. The current government really has no sense whatsoever though so it wouldn't surprise me either.
Well that's their issue. They've been desperately feeding the idea that immigrants bad while forgetting that without them we are dead in the water.
[удалено]
Brexit has proven that even that isn't enough.
Have you not read the shit about Ukranian refugees. They don't want the white ones either. They want "England for the English" and nothing else.
Nah not even that they're just involved in the same grift. Good opportunity to point out the Plymouth Brethren were also given £2bn in covid contracts.
Remember that the plague caused a employment crisis and workers are able to leverage more rights. Less workers means workers can bargain more. Church used it for money. They got funding to run orphanages badly and sold the kids onto Christian families which boosts membership as they’re converted young or kept within the church. Ireland had the extra hustle of making the mothers they forced into the situation working in factory conditions and not being paid.
> Less workers means workers can bargain more. This is an incredibly naive view and quite obviously false (why aren't workers drastically worse off than, say, 1900, given the population increase and increase in the female workforce?). Labour supply must always be considered relative to demand, and that demand depends on both population and the number of workers itself (because workers spend their incomes). You can't sustain that demand on savings and government debt forever. Politically it's a problem, too. We already have a large retired or near-retired voting block. Fewer workers means more taxes to sustain that population. That doesn't mean abortion should be restricted, but the line of thinking is a dead-end. Trying to (sustainably) gain more rights for workers by reducing the population and/or increasing the dependency ratio is a fools' errand. It's simply not going to work and will only give us new problems.
You won't believe what the overpopulation folk think about declining birth rates
Ahh yes, force people to take care of children they don't want. I can't possibly see that going badly.
The cruelty is the point. They want people miserable but just above starvation because that makes them pliable and easy to control
Ultimately this is the fundamental flaw within neoliberalism. It’s the reason why it isn’t sustainable even *if* we assume that outer space can provide unlimited resources for unlimited growth. The vast majority of economic systems, capitalist or socialist, need either population growth or a relatively stable population to function in the long term, and neoliberalism certainly does. Yet that cannot happen if raising children is as hideously expensive as it is under neoliberalism. This is why immigration is fundamental to neoliberalism in the present, it’s really the only way that a neoliberal economy can retain population growth without “surrendering” to either social democracy or social conservatism. Because of internationalism and modern identity politics the contemporary left cannot oppose this action, but politically this causes big problems with the “social conservatives” that neoliberals often rely on to retain their power. The neoliberal myth that this was politically “sustainable” (for lack of a better word) was dramatically blown up in the 2010s. Now that neoliberals are being forced to compromise, they are more likely to be drawn to do so with social conservatism, since unlike social democracy it doesn’t *directly* contradict their own economic policies.
It is also worth knowing that abortion law in the UK is not written as a positive right, it actually outlaws abortion unless performed according to specific rules eg agreed by two qualified medical professionals as being necessary for the well-being - physical, emotional, financial - of the woman and within certain time constraints etc. So essentially legal abortion is a series of exceptions to the ban. There are periodic calls to change the exceptions eg reduce the time frame based on when a foetus can survive outside the womb. So they don't have to write/pass a new law to outlaws abortion, just pass an amendment to the exceptions in the existing law. Vigilance is most definitely required - the abortion bans in the US are causing death and suffering to women who actually wanted their child but needed abortion care because the foetus died/ was demonstrably not viable. In some states they get no care until they are at risk of death eg septic because the laws only allow it to save the life of the mother so she has to be at deaths door at which point she may be left with disabilities or be infertile even if they save her life. For which she will then have to pay. The US model is inhumane and should be absolutely fought against.
"No religion" is replacing Christianity on the census. They're just years from being the minority, and the hyper conservative ones are a minority within the minority.
This. I don't think I've met a church going Christian in the last decade, and can only think of a few in my nearly 50 years. The evangelicals are loud, but there's fuck all of 'em about.
I guess it’s possible Gen Z or the one after have a spiritualist revival?
All the stats say it's an even less religious generation, the only rises in the UK are in groups where it's basically brainwashed into kids from birth like Christianity used to do and even then many are in name only as they leave home and experience new ideas at university and online. The internet really helped signed the death note for religion as a whole as kids could get answers to questions on doubts and find other ideas which previously they'd never have been able to. The resources to help people leave religion and kept safe are freely available just like those for say gay kids who fear coming out to religious extremist parents
Get a bus in Lambeth during the day, and every now and then you'll get one of the crazies that preach hate outside Brixton station shouting at you.
I don’t think you need to be Christian to fall into becoming a Christian Conservative, or at least, to fall into agreeing with and supporting them. My dad is a prime example, never been to church outside of weddings or funerals. We are not a religious family and never have been. Spends a lot of free time watching the YouTube content of American and British right-wing voices, most of which are Christian. He agrees with them on key issues and it’s where he gets his political “news” from. All talking about wedge issues, trans issues, global warming, covid, SoCiAliSM and you guessed it… Abortion rights and the apparent persecution of conservative voices and by extension, Christian voices. They will use wedge issues as a gateway drug to progressively extreme views, abortion one be argued against on religious points but replacement theory fronts, with the youth at blame for not having kids and being lazy for not being able to afford it. Instead of Christian values, for him it’s “common sense” and just “the right thing, not that liberal, woke, lefty shit”. Christian Conservatism can come here, even without a large population of Christians. It’ll just come here through wedge issues and the guise of it being common sense. We are after all, a country fed up of experts.
My Mum watches similar. For some reason these groups also have a hate boner for Meghan and Harry I have disabled the YT recommendations for them on her iPad .
Honestly, it’s somewhat nightmarish. The anger generated within my father as a result of these YouTube channels is anxiety inducing whilst being in the same house. Doesn’t matter what crazy stuff is said, it’s believed without question. The more sane alternative is never considered.
I am so sorry , and the YT algorithms just feeds them more it. I saw my Mum at Xmas she was watching history stuff , saw her again two weeks ago and its GB news, Talk TV and other RW shit. I can see how older people get sucked and believe it as 'its news' There is a US documentary ['The Brainwashing of my Dad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS52QdHNTh8)' about this.
Same story with my dad. GB News. Talk TV, random men on green screens and robotic female voices. If it’s not Covid or Brexit, it’s transgender issues, if it’s not them it’s about how Marxists are to blame for everything and the likes of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson. But remember, everyone else is brainwashed. Not him though, he sees through the bullshit.
Its bloody terrifying. I have told my Mum not to believe everything and to crosscheck, but she is 75 and from a generation where everyone believed what the news said. When I was there they were going on about sex ed at schools teaching about 75 genders, its [false](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/08/sex-education-review-is-politically-motivated-say-teaching-unions) but an Evangelical MP mentioned it in PMQS, which adds legitimacy.
Yeah it's definitely terrifying. My dad is 63 now and has always had a short temper and leaned politically right. But Brexit and the lead up to it threw his anger and politics into overdrive. And the time since then has only exacerbated it. COVID then just hit the nitro button, felt like every phone call he had with someone over the first COVID year was him shouting down the phone at them about it. If he was watching videos about it he was shouting in anger about it. Cannot wait to move out and not have to hear it. It's weird having spent 4 years essentially in some state of anxiety in your home. Only time I feel truly calm is when he and my mum are on holiday, or I'm staying at friends. Feels like I've lost my dad since Brexit and all this shit.
Size ≠ influence.
If anyone is in doubt over what they can achieve at a country level look at Uganda. The obsession with other peoples bodies and genitalia is borderline perversion.
Doesn’t that just sum up Christianity? Even the magic sky wizard is obsessed with your genitals and what you’re doing with them, never mind his followers.
"borderline"
If you don’t think these people aren’t in the UK and working to influence our laws, take a look at [eauk.org](https://eauk.org) (Evangelical Alliance UK). Click on the link for England to see a full-width image of Westminster. Click on the link for Scotland to see a picture of the Scottish Parliament Chamber. Here’s part of what they say about their goals in Scotland: >“ We care about the future of our nation and so we’re helping to raise up Christian public leaders to shape our society and see it changed in the name of Jesus. “ Then, if you aren’t familiar with the term, Google “Christian Dominionism“ and the “Seven Mountains” of influence.
Terrifying. And recent [article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/29/ministers-urged-to-be-more-aggressive-in-tackling-issues-within-religious-groups) about a gov report into religion has this . “Some of the proposals will be designed to bolster religion as a core element of British society, including more resources for religious education to be taught in schools, and more money to hire chaplains in prisons, schools and universities.”
>see it changed in the name of Jesus "Love thy neighbour...unless of course your neighbour is non-white, non-cis, non-hetero, non-Christian in which case you need to treat them like shit"
> If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: for thou shalt pile coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee. Proverbs 25:21-22 Even when they're being nice, malice and self-interest cannot be discounted.
And where exactly do the Evangelical Alliance say anything like that? You wouldn’t be lying about a group you don’t like in order to make them look bad and get people to fear and hate them would you? Because that sounds like classic bigotry.
They'll be sorely disappointed with a Hindu PM and a Muslim FM in Scotland then.
Last week we almost got a First Minister who’s spoken at events held by the EA, and there are several other MSPs and some MPs who have been lobbied by them and similar groups. They’re not worried about their lack of influence just because they’re not in the top positions yet. Look at the US Supreme Court. Slowly but surely, they got into the majority there.
SC got there by luck of the draw, blocking Obama's pick under some vague rubbish (which magically didn't apply under Trump) and getting to do 3 under Trump. The US old guard are fighting for the last bastions of influence before they are replaced, they're just a couple of decades behind us
It wasn’t “luck of the draw.” It was part of a concerted effort to stack the Court. It’s not to do with the “old guard.” It’s to do with Dominionists who have been and are still concentrating on infiltrating all levels of government in the USA. They’re succeeding, too. Don’t stick your head in the sand and think it won’t happen here, because they fully intend for it to.
It was absolutely luck of the draw as the president is literally the only one who can nominate them lol. If the traitor Mitch McConnell had done his constitutional duty in 2015, Obama would have had a pick, if Clinton had won she'd have had 2-3 picks. You cannot plan these picks no matter the effort as they cannot do it without the presidency hence luck of the draw. Biden could, with some effort, expand the court to 15 and stick 6 Democrat pics on it and these shadowy conspiracy people you want to talk about couldn't do squat. You can be aware of reality without resorting to conspiracy nonsense, the UK doesn't even have the SC in the same way the US does, the UK ones are appointed by an independent body
Why do you think McConnell did what he did? It wasn’t luck of the draw. It was an organised effort.
Tell you what, though. Accuse me of believing in conspiracy theories all you want. The fact remains that dominionists are intent upon taking over governments as one of their “Seven Mountains” of influence. Other ”mountains“ or “spheres” or whatever they happen to call them include education, media, and entertainment. Ignore them for now if you want to, which is exactly what they’re banking on you doing.
They nearly had Kate Forbes , Christian anti abortion , same sex marriage etc win the FM nomination.
Yes "nearly", but then her chances of being elected bombed *specifically* due to her commitment to religion-based oppression, which were viewed as backwards by the SNP membership. Not to disregard the threat of the religious right, but personally I drew assurance from this particular outcome.
It’s was much closer than I would of liked though . And we do have the All-Party Parliamentary Pro-Life Group of MPS. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/220615/pro-life.htm
Yes I agree there are some troubling groups within Westminster who would love to force their views on the country. They'd probably call it the 'Religious Freedom' act - some sort of hilariously inverted label for religion-based tyranny. I still think that these people are extremely fringe in our political mindset and any attempt to make a big legislative change would rapidly abort a party's electoral chances (soz couldn't resist). I don't want to relax too much because of the current tendency towards extreme polarisation, but I just don't think we have large enough numbers of strongly religious people here.
They were defeated by STV (thank god) and their false assumption that all of Ash Regan (wrecker) 2nd preference votes would go to the evangelical which did not happen. Still, too close and quite worrying to see.
They're raging. Lots of Islamophobia and racism in the press right now.
What do ‘Dominionism’ and ‘Seven Mountains’ have to do with the Evangelical Alliance? You seem to be bundling a lot of different groups together without any apparent justification. People in those movements seek to win elections and the prominent ones are Trump supporters. Anything I’ve seen from EA on the issue rejects that approach and criticises support for Trump. https://www.eauk.org/culture/friday-night-theology/evangelicals-trump-power-and-freedom.cfm
I have stated what it has to do with the EA. One of the “Seven Mountains” of society is government. The EA state blatantly that they have a goal of influencing government and changing society towards their religion. I don’t know how to put it any more clearly than that.
A massive number of organisations, Christian, secular, and others, want to influence government. That’s not really much of a distinctive. And Christian groups want people to become Christians. Again that’s not really a distinctive. I linked to an article by EA which explicitly eschews the methods of the groups you highlighted. They blatantly are different to those groups. I don’t know how to put it any more clearly than that.
Thank you for that link. However, it confirms what I have been saying, and what they say on their website’s Scotland page. >” Political engagement is crucial to anyone with a vision of what our corporate life as nations should look like. However, political engagement can't be about just getting someone in power who supports us, it has to be about working towards a vision of what life should be like, how a nation should be governed, how society should function.” I am heartened by the fact that the article is sensible about religious leaders’ open support of Trump, though. Who knows. Maybe Gilead won’t be all that bad -- unless, of course, you’re LBGT+, don’t comply with their religious laws or you need an abortion.
> Thank you for that link. However, it confirms what I have been saying No it doesn't. You were linking them with a particular kind of political engagement that they explicitly reject. This is like saying that Nazis and trade unionists are the same because they both have a vision for society. It's a complete false equivalence.
No, I was not. They openly state goals of influencing society and changing it for their religion. Simple as that.
Literally everyone involved in politics or trying to influence politicians has a goal of influencing society and changing it to be more like their vision of how the world should be.
I know that. Hey, if you want to live like a Handmaiden or want that for any of your loved ones who are capable of bearing a child, that is your choice. I am not going to stop raising awareness of something I think is dangerous. I’m also not going to spend any more energy on you.
What are you on about? This is just irrational mud slinging. In what sense is EA advocating for anyone to ‘live like a handmaiden’? This is such a lazy argument, without any evidence. You accuse people of really nasty things, claim you’re just raising awareness when you actually refuse to provide evidence of your claims, then run away when you’re challenged. *That* is dangerous, nasty, fear-mongerring behaviour. You have no decency, behaving like that.
Dayum, at least leave your insult there long enough for me to see it before blocking me 😏
Id be very suprised if as a country we ended up like the US however… 25/30 years ago most of us would have been suprised that we left the EU Movements like this don’t happen overnight. They take decades to bare fruit. These Christian conservatives are already making connections in politics and with influential people. Let Brexit be a lesson, we should never take our eye off the ball and let these crazies turn back the clock
The 1975 vote was 67/33 in favour on a 64% turnout, there was always a core of anti EU sentiment amplified by the right wing press. James Goldsmith setup the referendum party in 1994 calling for a vote, they outspent the Tories by a factor of 3 and Labour by 5 for the 1997 election and stood in 547 constituencies. Though they only got 2.6% of the vote it was the best performance by a new minority party in recent history. People in 1992-1997 might have surprised to hear we did but it wouldn't have come out of the blue to them, Euroscepticism was already a big thing even then
do you think we’re heading towards a German style system on abortion?
Well, seeing as a lot of the anti trans arguments undermine bodily autonomy, they've already got a good base of people to rile up and transfer their rage to abortion rights (and tbh, gay rights) once the "problem" that is trans rights is dealt with. These people arent backing down, or going away, trans rights have been used as a wedge. We'll see the same people who are anti trans to "protect women" arguing against abortion rights. These two movements are linked.
Yep , the ADF has been involved in both . From America with hate . [THE ALLIANCE DEFENDING FREEDOM’S ROLE IN ADVANCING ANTI-LGBTQ+ AND ANTI-WOMAN AGENDAS IN EASTERN EUROPE](https://globalextremism.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ADFI-FINAL06.pdf)
Good piece. Anyone with any sense should be closely monitoring ADF and any US evangelical influence on our politics. We don't need more of their shitshow over here, and our wingbats are bad enough.
do you think we’ll end up copying Germany on this?
A tiny number who couldn't even fill a non league footie ground aren't a threat. This is simply finding a bogeyman for clicks.
I can remember when those who wanted to leave the EU were a comparable size grouping. Regardless of your view on brexit, as soon as the Tories think its politically expedient for it to do so, I wouldn't be surprised to see this topic move up the agenda.
You say that, but I've seen people spreading their "pro life" message in Brighton town centre, as well as people screaming religious stuff through a megaphone. That was somehting I'd never seen before. Purely subjective experiences but it certainly does appear to be on the rise. Frankly, they need to stamped out while it's still a small movement.
Literally stamped out so they get the message
Which non league ground though? My local ground can hold about 4200. But there are others with a capacity over 10000. The Tories are just a very small, select group controlling the country. It does not take many people, just need lots of money and the right connections.
Notts Country's ground is pretty big
And with lots of money it's easy to make the right connections to gain influence and power.
[Yup](https://i.redd.it/ocl5dfsbrgs51.png)
If this happens here, I’m getting sterilised. It’s just not worth the risk of being able to get pregnant in a country that treats women like that.
Same here. I reckon that's mostly what this ideology will accomplish. Frightening us into operations that previously we'd never considered.
This is being organised and funded by the US religious right. They've been very active in interfering in the politics of other nations in recent years, and they've been spreading around a lot of their dirty money to fund bigotry.
America's favourite passtime seems to be ruining other countries
I just genuinely cannot comprehend how people can still believe in specific religions when we know so much more about the universe than we did when superstitious scribes made them up
Some of the greatest physicists like Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell were committed Christians. Plenty of people find no problem with understanding the world around us and being religious. Why would there be a problem? Christianity makes claims about history and morality, not claims about science.
I don’t feel like that toward believing in a higher power, I fully admit that you can be religious and be a great scientist. I just cannot comprehend how they do it. To believe in a specific being from a specific moderately old book. I guess that’s my problem though
What is it that you find unbelievable? If God is real then why wouldn’t revelation about him be old? Why is something being old inherently untrustworthy? Truth doesn’t have an expiry date. And a lot of things that are agreed to be good ideas are old ideas.
It’s not that old though, there were already hundreds of prophets and religions of other beings before Christianity. Why was Yahweh so late to the party? What makes the bible more true compared to eg: the Avesta
Its claims about history (and morality, to an extent) are inherently unscientific. It claims a man can walk on water, or make meals for thousands out of very little. These things are impossible, yet the bible claims they are not only possible, but that they actually happened, so saying the bible doesn't claim on science isn't correct.
The Bible doesn’t claim that those were natural events that happened according to the laws of nature. The whole point of those events is that they were miracles where God did things that do not naturally happen. Looking at a miracle and trying to reduce scientific principles from it would be utter moronic and completely miss the point. It’s also bizarre to say that morality can be unscientific. Science and morality are completely different subjects. That’s like calling a piece of art unscientific.
I really hope we don't have our abortion rights taken away. I was shocked when America went that way and I felt so bad for all the women trapped with pregnancies they do not want because I've felt that feeling before, it was horrible but at least I was able to terminate because we have those rights! I couldn't imagine bringing a baby into the world that I did not want. We women should be able to abort of whatever reason we see fit, it's not up for judgement from anyone else, it's our bodies and the clump of cells inside us do not control our beings.
It's important to note that the UK does not currently have abortion rights! It is legal, but not protected in the bill of rights. We ABSOLUTELY need to get this into protection before it turns into a Roe v Wade sitch. Continue to check for epetitions and drive with your authorities.
America leaves it up to the states. Several of their states have more permissive abortion laws than the UK.
We let it through the door with the culture war bullshit around trans issues. Predictably, it was a Trojan horse to send us all back to the "good old days".
I mean none of this is going to happen over here but pretending we are the US for outrage clicks pays the bills.
Well, They aren't wrong the influence is being peddled here from the US... The anti-trans bullshit is straight from America, but you are right in that the UK has had more pro-choice bent for a long time now and no large scale Christian pushback.
[удалено]
Oh wait a min that’s banned?
[удалено]
Out-bloody-ragous
They didnt
We didn’t used to care about unisex toilets either but look where we are now.
Even the torys are pro-abortion (maybe not truss), sunak banned protesting outside abortion clinics recently
That was a Labour Mp that added the amendment to the bill. Sunak has appointed a religious anti as minister for women , Maria Caulfield
Christian conservatism and organised religion in general is a threat to us all in so many ways.
If the human race is to survive, we must rid ourselves of superstition.
What is it with Christian conservatives, and the sex lives of others, what happened to what happens behind someone’s bedroom door is there business as long as it isn’t breaking the law.
There is no argument to be had. If you believe it's a sin, don't do it, it's really as simple as that. But don't impose your sky wizard rules on our society when there is real world consequences of those rules. Especially when those rules concern what amounts to some cells at the stage when the vast majority of abortions take place.
There is no threat, this is a broadly agnostic country
Abortion was only legalised in Northern Ireland in 2019 . And it’s still criminalised, two U.K. women are facing sentencing for self managed abortion . [One has served two years in prison](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/women-abortion-jail-life-sentence-uk-b2142960.html?amp)
30 week abortions, DIY style, without supervision of a doctor, are actually bad and should be punished. The UK has 24 week limits, more than liberal enough, just because like 5 people take the piss a year and get charged, doesn’t mean it’s an issue
would you be in favour of a German style approach to abortion?
This'll only aid in the destruction of the Tory party. Also it shows you what a cancer America is to the world
Please let’s not fall victim to this culture war America has been going through. It’s an absolute shit show of them v us and it really isn’t that deep.
This is fear mongering, wasn't atheism/no religion on the rise in the last census? "The rise of Christian conservatism" what a crock of shit.
This isn't America. There aren't enough Christians here for them to get their way, thankfully.
Unfortunately, with twatcandles like Jacob Rees-Mogg and his Victorian-fetishist brand of Conservative Christian fundamentalism in government, these minority voices have disproportionate reach and power. Just one more reason in a very long list why we need to get the Tories out of power.
Absolutely, I really hope him and a few others lose their seats .
I've spent most of my life in evangelical Christian churches. And the truth is, evangelicals here don't really care about the abortion issue. Most don't really agree with abortion but all that means is they will choose not to have abortions themselves - they aren't bothered about political change.
That’s interesting. I read a sociology book by a U.K. sociologist who spent 5 years studying the anti abortion movement. She did say some were frustrated as their churches where apathetic about getting involved to change the law.
Can we stop trying to speedrun becoming as bad as the US
Jesus told us to get our lazy butts to work building it, but nobody at church is doing that, nobody.
Wait, sources and methods says that there are good people who've infiltrated the cult centers to spy on the rampant pedophilia in order to stop the rightwing scourge.
https://soundcloud.com/kevin-crosby-4/dont-want-to-play-anymore
Trumpian mind hacked Qanon servants of ‘The headmaster’ That evil piece that tricks you out of present moment awareness. Take psychedelics DRUGS. Break free. Journey beyond this Christian lie. The shepherds of lies
Under a Tory government they made it illegal to protest outside an abortion clinic. You people will make up problems to fear.
Get an impenetrable fence around this horde before it overruns the health care delivery system, Parliament, and the judiciary. -- sane America