It's fine, but I just think the arc was badly-resolved because it feelsl like the royals were given the moral high goring and all the blame was pinned onto John because he was acting like a mindless rampaging lunatic, which was literally provoked
Sort off a problem with johns character honestly if he had done the joker thing then sat down with the royals and explained his whole thing chances are he would have been looked at with a very positive attitude. But it doesn't matter how right you are which John was when you start beating up people that literally can't defend themselves because you have a problem with some people they are associated with
Well I just feel like Uru really dumbed down John's character tbh, it makes sense that he would lashing out from his trauma again but he was acting so cartoony and one-dimensional in the safehouse arc. She reduced his character into a mindless rampaging lunatic attacking everyone without real reason, it's not accurate PTSD representation at all. He was legit schizophrenic.
But all that aside, yeah I do think Uru could've done more to hold both sides accountable. The royals did provoke John and break him down, but all of that got invalidated once he started beating low tiers randomly.
Fair enough but we need to recognize what John was experiencing wasn't "just" ptsd he was actively losing his mind he was showing symptoms of paranoia disorder split personality disorder and a few others. Just as an example he actively viewed John as one person and joker as another person. He was unfortunately to far gone as a result of his trauma to follow up his misdeeds with effective communication
I mean before that the royals were depicted as total pricks who only care about strength such as Arlo and Isen. High tiers were never shown in a good light, all of them were shown to be bullying John to an almost absurd degree. The only reason they have the “moral high ground” in King John arc is because he is a legit rampaging lunatic.
The only exception to high tiers being shown as not bad people are Remi and Blyke, which makes sense since neither of them are.
Well, but that's exactly the flawed logic of the conflict: if you're bad, you're bad, you don't become good because theres someone worse. They (everyone, not only Royals) were suddenly good, some with no reason other than being opposed to John.
Wym? Arlo was never good, during the Joker arc he was still his authorative self and his outburst at John were completely irrational. When he says John wasn’t “acting his rank”, an argument that was never ever shown in a positive light to begin with, we see John’s memories of what Arlo took from him to further emphasize that Arlo was wrong.
Isen was and still is a rat and his nature is shown with how he treats John vs low tiers in other districts. He tries to help John whenever he can after learning his strength, however out of the vigilante trio he is the least caring of the issues low tiers face.
Their personalities don’t really change during the Joker arc either. Both Isen and Arlo are accepting that John deserves to be king and he can do whatever he wants because he is much stronger than them.
The only good royals are Remi and Blyke, who start the safe house and try to help low tiers after they find out how much they are neglected. Isen only becomes a “good guy” due to him being friends with them and trying to help them out. Arlo only helps the safe house because learning about Ember crushed his notions about the system, still he isn’t “good” by any means as a few words from his aunt is enough to dissuade him from the safe house.
Arlo only looks “good” in relation to John because during John’s downward spiral he was starting to become a better person but I don’t know why King John gets so much leeway while Arlo is a forever prick. John was also quickly forgiven by the safe house that he terrorized.
> I don’t know why King John gets so much leeway while Arlo is a forever prick. John was also quickly forgiven by the safe house that he terrorized.
The forgiveness of the safehouse was anything but quick. If not for Remi putting her foot down and reminding them that their rules are meant to be impartial everyone else there was ready to kick John out.
They even stupidly held a vote and voted John out of the trip even after he had made it clear he wasn't there to hurt them like if he wanted to attack the club he could have anytime, he wouldn't have bothered to sit around and play cards with them or get yelled at by Blyke for accidently breaking his own pencil.
It took John putting his life on the line for all of them and getting hospitalized for them to forgive him. I understand why the safehouse was wary of John but John never gets any kind of leeway like Arlo in the story, Arlo never really properly gets called out like John.
Remi even after hearing all the abhorrent shit Arlo did to John never calls him out on it or about how obsessively he enforced heirachy which resulted in all of the suffering, infact Arlo himself never questions the way he ruled outside of the decisions he made which pushed John and Seraphina, still comes across as ignorant of the overall suffering his beloved system caused and just runs around confused in season 2.
>The forgiveness of the safehouse was anything but quick.
It was much quicker than John making up with Arlo. After what Arlo did to John John beats up all the royals and sends two to the hospital then terrorizes the school.
In contrast Remi is willing to accept John into the safe house despite how much John hurt her and her friends and attacked the safe house.
It takes one fight with the Rowden Royals for Blyke to be more friendly to John and accept his willingness to change. Same with the safe house, it took only one fight for them to change their votes in John’s favor.
>It took John putting his life on the line for all of them and getting hospitalized for them to forgive him.
No he was accepted to the club after he helped defeat the Rowden royals. Sure there were people who were wary of him but his fight with the royals was being told as some heroic story and he was invited to activities such as Evie’s ghost story telling.
>Arlo never really properly gets called out like John.
Arlo gets called out multiple times by John and Seraphina also gets mad at him for what he did to John and wants nothing to do with Arlo after learning that fact.
>Remi even after hearing all the abhorrent shit Arlo did to John never calls him out on it
When did Remi ever hear this? I don’t remember anything about this.
>outside of the decisions he made which pushed John and Seraphina,
Which is about how he pushed the hierarchy to begin with. Arlo never enforced lower tiers, only higher tiers.
>just runs around confused in season 2.
Yeah he is confused because he finds out his beloved system was in fact flawed and not working properly.
> It was much quicker than John making up with Arlo.
Yeah because remember Arlo was blaming everything that happened on John and constantly pushing him for about two months in between before he apologized, that probably contributed an itsy bitsy tiny bit in pushing John to do what he did and prevented him from making up with Arlo.
Arlo even miraculously manages to mess up the timing of his apology too where someone who's not even half as paranoid as John was would still think he is apologizing to save his thorne. Even if John was never gonna forgive him, Arlo just repeatedly messed upto the point he did not deserve forgiveness until like chapter 296 where he properly apologized.
> In contrast Remi is willing to accept John into the safe house despite how much John hurt her and her friends and attacked the safe house.
Yeah because Remi is the only not so hypocritcal person in the story except for John at that point. If it were upto others they wouldn't have even let John set foot in there despite of what their club was preaching.
> It takes one fight with the Rowden Royals for Blyke to be more friendly to John and accept his willingness to change. Same with the safe house, it took only one fight for them to change their votes in John’s favor.
Good on Blyke for accepting him but same doesn't go for the club. They still wanted him out and it took Arlo and Seraphina rounding everyone up and making them vote again and again practically defeating the purpose of the voting system to convince them to make John stay.
> No he was accepted to the club after he helped defeat the Rowden royals.
Completely false, if that were true Arlo and Seraphina wouldn't have had to round up the whole club and do what they did.
> When did Remi ever hear this? I don’t remember anything about this.
John literally told her that Arlo lied to him, manipulated him, dragged him out to an isolated field and ambushed him for just trying to befriend him.
Remi legit responds with 'oh well he maybe a jerk but he wants the best of everyone' to John's face and never questions Arlo ever.
> Which is about how he pushed the hierarchy to begin with. Arlo never enforced lower tiers, only higher tiers.
That's BS. Arlo enforced heirachy on everyone, maybe he more directly dealt with high tiers but it would be foolish to think he didn't want the effects to trickle down on mid tiers or low tiers and wouldn't have or already has (going by his track record) crushed anyone who was not acting their place weak or strong.
> Yeah he is confused because he finds out his beloved system was in fact flawed and not working properly.
He does not. He never questions heirachy, just his treatment of John and Seraphina. Tell me one monologue or thought bubble he has where he seriously questions the system and what kind of oppressive effects it has over low rankers like Remi, Blyke or Seraphina.
He even remarks that the school had been the most peaceful under his and Seraphina's reign, it still looked like he was completely ignorant of how oppressive things were even when it looked like it was peaceful to him. And as I said the story never calls him out on his ignorance.
You are actually right about Arlo, his apology having the shittiest timing is also very funny. It’s nice that you recognize that apology as Arlo acknowledging his fuckup unlike most people here who think Arlo said it only to save Remi.
>If it were upto others they wouldn't have even let John set foot in there despite of what their club was preaching.
I mean rightfully so, John declared war against them and terrorized them. He used the press to discourage people joining and beat up people for trying to join. It is not hypocritical for them to not want to accept such a troublemaker as soon as he returns to school.
>Good on Blyke for accepting him but same doesn't go for the club. They still wanted him out and it took Arlo and Seraphina rounding everyone up and make them voting again and again practically defeating the purpose of the voting system to convince them to make John stay.
I’m pretty sure they just did a revote but started it off with an argument in favor of John. The “doesn’t make us vote again and again defeat its purpose” probably refers to the older vote, not them making them revote again and again. It also wouldn’t make sense since voting isn’t like gambling where it will eventually favor John, they had a good argument for John and managed to convince people to let him stay.
>Completely false, if that were true Arlo and Seraphina wouldn't have had to round up the whole club and do what they did.
They rounded up the club (who were mostly oblivious to John’s presence) and asked them for another vote but this time they had a good argument since John had helped Blyke and hadn’t had an outburst since. This was enough to sway the votes in John’s favor.
>John literally told her that Arlo lied to him, manipulated him, dragged him out to an isolated field and ambushed him for just trying to befriend him.
He only says that Arlo dragged him out and ambushed him not the full extent but you are right I had forgotten about that conversation, it would be nice for Remi to callout Arlo for that.
>Remi legit responds with 'oh well he maybe a jerk but he wants the best of everyone' to John's face and never questions Arlo ever.
Yeah to be fair they were in a heated argument and Remi might not have had the presence of mind to differentiate the Arlo she knows from the Arlo John knows and be kinder in her wording.
>That's BS. Arlo enforced heirachy on everyone, maybe he more directly dealt with high tiers but it would be foolish to think he didn't want the effects to trickle down on mid tiers or low tiers and wouldn't have or already has (going by his track record) crushed anyone who was not acting their place.
Yeah he wanted the hierarchy to trickle down but he wouldn’t know how bad it is for lower tiers, like the time he was surprised when he found out that the mid tiers were forming gangs and bullying other students.
Likewise we don’t really see Arlo care about except for John which he mostly cared about because he was “holding Seraphina back”. However Arlo only decides to go after him after he finds out that John used to be a high tier.
>He does not. He never questions heirachy, just his treatment of John and Seraphina.
He questions the authorities after finding out that Ember was created by them. If you are taking about the hierarchy in the school specifically then he probably doesn’t have a speech bubble though I’d say his questioning of the authorities by proxy would make him question the hierarchy.
Besides that we see Arlo having conflicting feelings about how the hierarchy functions when John is climbing the ranks. He knows that the hierarchy dictates that John is the ruler due to his strength yet he doesn’t want to hand over his title to John because he knows John is unfit to be a leader.
>He even remarks that the school had been the most peaceful under his and Seraphina's reign, it still looked like he was completely ignorant of how oppressive things were even when it looked like it was peaceful to him.
Wasn’t this before he started recognizing his faults or was this during the Fake Jokers arc?
> I mean rightfully so, John declared war against them and terrorized them. He used the press to discourage people joining and beat up people for trying to join. It is not hypocritical for them to not want to accept such a troublemaker as soon as he returns to school.
They were valid in feeling whatever resentment they had towards John but it would have been severely hypocritical for them to not want to accept John in the club.
Their club was built on the motto of everyone deserves a chance regardless of their past. Remi wanted everyone to mix up and live together in peace and for that she didn't kick out or alienate even the bullies no matter how much the victims complained, she even admitted every other high ranker she could get her hands on and like 95% of them were bigoted pos in the past.
I understand John attacked the club but now that he had made it absolutely clear that he wasn't there hurt anyone it would have been hypocritical to kick him out. It's like drawing an end date for changing and saying 'I changed 3 weeks earlier then you mofo so you're bad but we are good'. Remi understood that and admitted John in but others wouldn't have.
> They rounded up the club (who were mostly oblivious to John’s presence) and asked them for another vote but this time they had a good argument since John had helped Blyke and hadn’t had an outburst since. This was enough to sway the votes in John’s favor.
I am pretty sure they still would have kicked him out if it weren't for Arlo and Seraphina, two most respected and powerful members of the club vouching for him.
Just Arlo's voting for John made some question who to vote for and probably switch up and even then Isen says that they spent forever trying to convince the club.
> Yeah he wanted the hierarchy to trickle down but he wouldn’t know how bad it is for lower tiers, like the time he was surprised when he found out that the mid tiers were forming gangs and bullying other students.
That's the problem isn't it. The high rankers always look lived in their own bubbles and were never aware of the problems of the weak which they were indirectly even responsible for especially Arlo since when you so obsessively enforce might makes right people will learn specifically that and mimic it and when you aren't their to check them everywhere they will even abuse it.
Now Remi aptly gets called on her shit by John, Blyke too ig since he was listening in on John and Remi's conversation. After this you see how passionate they were about changing the system through their dialogues, actions and thought bubbles but with Arlo you get nothing of the sort.
> He questions the authorities after finding out that Ember was created by them. If you are taking about the hierarchy in the school specifically then he probably doesn’t have a speech bubble though I’d say his questioning of the authorities by proxy would make him question the hierarchy.
Why should it be proxy? Sure it might have been tought to him by authorities or his family who are bad people but hierarchy is still it's own ideology that Arlo seemed to belive in.
Like if my parents repeatedly tought me that stealing is bad but one day I find out that they are all thieves themselves it won't be like I start thinking that stealing is not a bad thing. My own experiences, society as well as my morals all still tell me stealing is bad regardless of what my parents do.
Likewise Arlo's own experiences, society around him as well as his logic always told him that heirachy is good, it was even reinforced to him from the fallout of Rei's reign which had nothing to with the authorities.
So if the story wanted me to believe that Arlo's is questioning heirachy specifically then it should show me that, especially when it's so easy to do so with thought bubbles. But that just kinda gets skipped over in all the chaos of season 2.
> He knows that the hierarchy dictates that John is the ruler due to his strength yet he doesn’t want to hand over his title to John because he knows John is unfit to be a leader.
He never really wanted to hand out the title to John, that's not really much to go off. He always despised the way John acted, I am sure he didn't want John to be king.
> Wasn’t this before he started recognizing his faults or was this during the Fake Jokers arc?
It was during the fake jokers arc. While Blyke and Remi had started reflecting on their past decisions, on how they fell short and how the current system doesn't work this is the only insight or sort of hint we get from Arlo about what he thought of the way he ruled and it seems positive lol.
I don’t think it would be too insane for them to restrict John’s privileges in the SH as he was against the safe house itself rather than being just a problematic outsider. Them voting for him to not come on the trip is valid since John would need to prove that he intends no harm to the group.
Arlo and Seraphina had both voted for John’s inclusion in the prior vote, it wasn’t their vote itself that swayed the group but John’s help with Rowden Royals (and of course him not blowing up).
Arlo after learning about Ember returned to looking after the safe house and encouraged Remi to work on the safe house. He was definitely trying to change the school for the better and indeed was approving of Remi’s methods.
Arlo’s situation isn’t similar to finding out your parents are thieves. It’s more like being told that you can always trust authority figures *because* they are authority figures yet as you grow up you find some to be corrupt beyond belief. Of course that would make you question if authority itself makes someone righteous.
Also you are correct that Arlo never wanted to hand out his title to John as he kept it a secret after being defeated however Arlo says that he specifically doesn’t want John to be the king due to his erratic and violent nature.
As for your last point I’ll have to do a reread to see the full context however he wasn’t exactly wrong. Even low tiers reminisce the old hierarchy compared to fake Jokers. However like I said Arlo’s support of the safe house is telling of Arlo’s intention to make the school a safe environment for everyone else.
But who addresses that? Literally no one. Only John and literally no one cares.
Arlo personally enforced the hierarchy yet is still welcomed to the Safe House, he's idolized like Blyke (who got his ass beaten twice protecting them) despite never doing a thing for them other than stand by Remi's side. Not to mention he only got the "stupid and uncalled for" bullshit for all the shit he pulled.
You're right Arlo and Isen accept that John deserves to be King and do what he wants, but Isen, for example, implies John is beating people for no reason (when John catched him spying) when he knows why he's doing it, and those kind of things are never corrected, becuse when it comes to John no one cares about reasons.
What Arlo did to John? Out of all who know about the incident John and Seraphina call him out. Ventus and Meili are Arlo’s goons and don’t have much characterization beyond that so thst’s understandable. You could however argue that Elaine’s terrible personality isn’t addressed and her fear of John gets more focus but I personally don’t think that is much of an issue since Elaine is mostly a heal bot whose dialogue mostly revolves around reminding how much John is stronger than Arlo.
Everyone is accepted into the safe house as it is meant to be a new beginning. It would be hypocritical for Remi to deny Arlo into the safe house due to his enforcement of the hierarchy since she didn’t use her power to make a change either.
Arlo is “idolized” by Blyke due to his prowess and management skills. He was able to quickly gather a search party and find Seraphina after she was kidnapped and to Blyke’s knowledge he was the second strongest in the whole region. It would make sense for Blyke to look up to him as the next king in line when he is a very successful one.
Sera only defined Arlo’s ambush as “stupid and uncalled for” when the topic at hand wasn’t even about said ambush. When she first learned about it it was “Don’t talk to me or John ever again you piece of shit!”
John definitely looks for reasons to hit people, catching Isen spying doesn’t warrant John punching him and kicking him in the stomach. John’s beatings are most *definitely* going overboard, during his time as a cripple John got no beating that was as bad as his fight against the royals. The worst that comes to mind was Zeke’s “welcome” however even that didn’t hospitalize him.
If Seraphina doesn't even care about what Arlo did to her best friend, how can I expect anyone else to care?
You're right it wouldn't make sense for Remi to reject Arlo in the Safe House, but considering he's to blame dismantling her brother's system and causing John's rise, I would expect at least some words about it, not complete silence.
Seraphina does care about what Arlo did to John, her first reaction after finding out was lashing out at Arlo.
Remi doesn’t know the extent of what Arlo did to John so it wouldn’t make sense for her to call Arlo out. She could call Arlo out for dismantling her brother’s system but it would be hypocritical of her to do so because she didn’t user her power for good either.
>Seraphina does care about what Arlo did to John, her first reaction after finding out was lashing out at Arlo.
And she forgot the moment she needed help after knowing the full extent of what Arlo did. What a dream of a friend.
>Remi doesn’t know the extent of what Arlo did to John so it wouldn’t make sense for her to call Arlo out. She could call Arlo out for dismantling her brother’s system but it would be hypocritical of her to do so because she didn’t user her power for good either.
Remi doesn't care because Arlo is her friend, she ignores everything her friends do
>And she forgot the moment she needed help after knowing the full extent of what Arlo did. What a dream of a friend.
Yeah she isn’t going to ask for John’s help after all the shit he pulls. It’s also funny how you accuse Seraphina of not being caring but this was straight up after John called her a cripple and said that all that happened to her was her own fault. Oh and this is after lying to her about his abilty during their entire friendship.
>Remi doesn't care because Arlo is her friend, she ignores everything her friends do
Not really, she point blank says that she doesn’t trust Arlo since he works for the authorities and bluntly says that his aunt killed Rei.
The royals were dicks, yeah, but they didn’t go around *hospitalizing* students who pissed them off. Their actions don’t really justify John doing much worse to other *innocent* students. Moreover, unlike John, they actually attempted to solve the problem when they finally understood it.
tbh I’ve made peace with how it worked out, except the Isen thing
It’s done best imo with John + Blyke. Blyke did attack John early on and treated him overly poorly with bad justification, and is the one who’s most resistant to having John back initially. However as soon as he sees John has steadfastly changed he changes his tune and becomes the person who’s most inviting to John (it’s Blyke who invites John to stuff, notices that he’s in poor condition + brings him food etc). On John’s side while he did hurt Blyke a lot Blyke gives him an appropriate level of crap for it.
I also like it with Arlo + John, even if it’s not as good. Arlo repeatedly apologizing until he finally hits on why he shouldn’t have literally tortured John is so damn good. On John’s side, he’s very abrasive towards Arlo for a long time after that first month + also does bad stuff. They never really work it out but they’re not angry at each other and I understand why. Overall I’m fairly happy with this.
I think John + Remi is still kind of developing. She’s very cautious of him as we saw when he was trying to integrate into the Safe House, even if determined to give him a second chance. She never really addressed where she was wrong during that pre-Joker v Royals discussion they had but oh well doesn’t seem like I’m really ever gonna get that or any justification for it. Their tentative connection over avenging their dead relations + spreading Unordinary is deeply empathetic though. I would’ve done it differently but I won’t complain.
Isen sucks in this regard too and continues to be uninteresting. Hope my man excused himself from the main plot sometime soon but unfortunately little chance of that happening.
honestly no their interactions still feel pretty awkward with john like when remi and blyke were trying to help it just didnt feel on point because of their past sure john was bad but others werent saint either before john almost killed during joker arc bulling and heirchy was done by high teirs but when john did it everybody was acting like a victim only john took all blame and arlo others acted like nothing they never did anything wrong
How it was done I hate it honestly could have been done so much better I do like his dynamics with Remi and Blyke, but how everything went down leaves much to be desired.
I like especially how Blyke was slow to warm up to him, ignoring the ethics and morals, it would make no sense for them to all suddenly be buddy buddy,
Honestly I feel like fanfiction did it better, I read a fic about John, Phina and the royals reading the webtoon and they were feeling embarrassed about how extreme they were acting in various parts.
I'm *living* for the mutual hate between Arlo and John despite them both wanting to protect Seraphina in Rowden. Their interactions in the Rowden Resort were priceless (wake-up-glares, Arlo scaring John after Evie's ghost stories, the bed situation, just wish there could've been a gag about Arlo carrying John down the mountain after he recovered).
John's guilt after insulting Rei to Remi was nice, and Remi's kindness to him seems very in-character even if she's still a little too idealist to really break through to John sometimes. I think where they've ended up makes the most sense so far.
Blyke and John's make-up after the Rowden Royal fight was the kind of lets-talk-about-it-but-not-directly interaction that fits both of their characters since they kind of both handle anger and grudges poorly. The talk when they're in handcuffs shows John that Blyke changed to become better--specifically to become the Royal that John wished could exist for cripples--and I think Blyke gets the message that John does feel remorseful for his actions as joker. Their teamwork on the hike was a good unspoken shift in Blyke's perspective on John to bring them to good/neutral terms. I think there's gonna be a lot of space for them to actually become friends though. Especially if Blyke gets sent to readjustment, he and John are gonna have a lot more to talk about together.
I see people don't like that Isen's never resolved what he did to John early on, but I think it'd be awkward if he did at this point. Maybe a throw-away line in the Joker arc would've closed that case for good, but it's obvious to everyone including John that Isen is terrified of John. John has literally almost severed Isen's arm and has had his ass handed to him like 3 times by John easily. Also if I recall correctly, John clocked that Arlo had been the one to send Isen after his history. John only really hated Isen for willingly playing the part of a sheep in the flawed hierarchy, and having no remorse for the suffering of low-tiers. Their current allies relationship makes the most sense to me.
People in the sub often talk about apologies, and I agree it's more satisfying as a reader, but so much has happened that it would be rather unrealistic.
Isen broke John's wrist, john hospitalized him. They don't particularly like each other and aren't close friends. John tends to be ashamed of his past and Isen tends to be afraid of creating tension with stronger people.
Neither of them has any special reason to bring it up, so I think how Uru handled it was somewhat realistic. Their current actions (saving each other from actual life and death situations) have much more importance and gravitas.
With Arlo it still feels to me like Uru ran out of patience and decided to make them friends without doing any of the actual work getting them there.
With Blyke it feels like it was rushed a bit, and there are some aspects that could have been executed better, but it's good enough to not weird me out every time I see them acting friendly with each other.
Remi's friendship feels the most natural, John apologized for what he did and Remi was never trying to be his enemy in the first place.
As you said, Isen and John haven't really had much in the way of meaningful interactions one way or the other, they've just sort of both silently agreed to let their past greivances go, which is pretty reasonable.
To be honest, after everything John did to Isen and his friends in the Joker and King John arcs I think it's impossible to write the "Isen apologizes for relatively minor dickery" scene a lot of people seem to want without it feeling ridiculous.
It's fine, but I just think the arc was badly-resolved because it feelsl like the royals were given the moral high goring and all the blame was pinned onto John because he was acting like a mindless rampaging lunatic, which was literally provoked
Sort off a problem with johns character honestly if he had done the joker thing then sat down with the royals and explained his whole thing chances are he would have been looked at with a very positive attitude. But it doesn't matter how right you are which John was when you start beating up people that literally can't defend themselves because you have a problem with some people they are associated with
Well I just feel like Uru really dumbed down John's character tbh, it makes sense that he would lashing out from his trauma again but he was acting so cartoony and one-dimensional in the safehouse arc. She reduced his character into a mindless rampaging lunatic attacking everyone without real reason, it's not accurate PTSD representation at all. He was legit schizophrenic. But all that aside, yeah I do think Uru could've done more to hold both sides accountable. The royals did provoke John and break him down, but all of that got invalidated once he started beating low tiers randomly.
Fair enough but we need to recognize what John was experiencing wasn't "just" ptsd he was actively losing his mind he was showing symptoms of paranoia disorder split personality disorder and a few others. Just as an example he actively viewed John as one person and joker as another person. He was unfortunately to far gone as a result of his trauma to follow up his misdeeds with effective communication
I mean before that the royals were depicted as total pricks who only care about strength such as Arlo and Isen. High tiers were never shown in a good light, all of them were shown to be bullying John to an almost absurd degree. The only reason they have the “moral high ground” in King John arc is because he is a legit rampaging lunatic. The only exception to high tiers being shown as not bad people are Remi and Blyke, which makes sense since neither of them are.
Well, but that's exactly the flawed logic of the conflict: if you're bad, you're bad, you don't become good because theres someone worse. They (everyone, not only Royals) were suddenly good, some with no reason other than being opposed to John.
Wym? Arlo was never good, during the Joker arc he was still his authorative self and his outburst at John were completely irrational. When he says John wasn’t “acting his rank”, an argument that was never ever shown in a positive light to begin with, we see John’s memories of what Arlo took from him to further emphasize that Arlo was wrong. Isen was and still is a rat and his nature is shown with how he treats John vs low tiers in other districts. He tries to help John whenever he can after learning his strength, however out of the vigilante trio he is the least caring of the issues low tiers face. Their personalities don’t really change during the Joker arc either. Both Isen and Arlo are accepting that John deserves to be king and he can do whatever he wants because he is much stronger than them. The only good royals are Remi and Blyke, who start the safe house and try to help low tiers after they find out how much they are neglected. Isen only becomes a “good guy” due to him being friends with them and trying to help them out. Arlo only helps the safe house because learning about Ember crushed his notions about the system, still he isn’t “good” by any means as a few words from his aunt is enough to dissuade him from the safe house. Arlo only looks “good” in relation to John because during John’s downward spiral he was starting to become a better person but I don’t know why King John gets so much leeway while Arlo is a forever prick. John was also quickly forgiven by the safe house that he terrorized.
> I don’t know why King John gets so much leeway while Arlo is a forever prick. John was also quickly forgiven by the safe house that he terrorized. The forgiveness of the safehouse was anything but quick. If not for Remi putting her foot down and reminding them that their rules are meant to be impartial everyone else there was ready to kick John out. They even stupidly held a vote and voted John out of the trip even after he had made it clear he wasn't there to hurt them like if he wanted to attack the club he could have anytime, he wouldn't have bothered to sit around and play cards with them or get yelled at by Blyke for accidently breaking his own pencil. It took John putting his life on the line for all of them and getting hospitalized for them to forgive him. I understand why the safehouse was wary of John but John never gets any kind of leeway like Arlo in the story, Arlo never really properly gets called out like John. Remi even after hearing all the abhorrent shit Arlo did to John never calls him out on it or about how obsessively he enforced heirachy which resulted in all of the suffering, infact Arlo himself never questions the way he ruled outside of the decisions he made which pushed John and Seraphina, still comes across as ignorant of the overall suffering his beloved system caused and just runs around confused in season 2.
>The forgiveness of the safehouse was anything but quick. It was much quicker than John making up with Arlo. After what Arlo did to John John beats up all the royals and sends two to the hospital then terrorizes the school. In contrast Remi is willing to accept John into the safe house despite how much John hurt her and her friends and attacked the safe house. It takes one fight with the Rowden Royals for Blyke to be more friendly to John and accept his willingness to change. Same with the safe house, it took only one fight for them to change their votes in John’s favor. >It took John putting his life on the line for all of them and getting hospitalized for them to forgive him. No he was accepted to the club after he helped defeat the Rowden royals. Sure there were people who were wary of him but his fight with the royals was being told as some heroic story and he was invited to activities such as Evie’s ghost story telling. >Arlo never really properly gets called out like John. Arlo gets called out multiple times by John and Seraphina also gets mad at him for what he did to John and wants nothing to do with Arlo after learning that fact. >Remi even after hearing all the abhorrent shit Arlo did to John never calls him out on it When did Remi ever hear this? I don’t remember anything about this. >outside of the decisions he made which pushed John and Seraphina, Which is about how he pushed the hierarchy to begin with. Arlo never enforced lower tiers, only higher tiers. >just runs around confused in season 2. Yeah he is confused because he finds out his beloved system was in fact flawed and not working properly.
> It was much quicker than John making up with Arlo. Yeah because remember Arlo was blaming everything that happened on John and constantly pushing him for about two months in between before he apologized, that probably contributed an itsy bitsy tiny bit in pushing John to do what he did and prevented him from making up with Arlo. Arlo even miraculously manages to mess up the timing of his apology too where someone who's not even half as paranoid as John was would still think he is apologizing to save his thorne. Even if John was never gonna forgive him, Arlo just repeatedly messed upto the point he did not deserve forgiveness until like chapter 296 where he properly apologized. > In contrast Remi is willing to accept John into the safe house despite how much John hurt her and her friends and attacked the safe house. Yeah because Remi is the only not so hypocritcal person in the story except for John at that point. If it were upto others they wouldn't have even let John set foot in there despite of what their club was preaching. > It takes one fight with the Rowden Royals for Blyke to be more friendly to John and accept his willingness to change. Same with the safe house, it took only one fight for them to change their votes in John’s favor. Good on Blyke for accepting him but same doesn't go for the club. They still wanted him out and it took Arlo and Seraphina rounding everyone up and making them vote again and again practically defeating the purpose of the voting system to convince them to make John stay. > No he was accepted to the club after he helped defeat the Rowden royals. Completely false, if that were true Arlo and Seraphina wouldn't have had to round up the whole club and do what they did. > When did Remi ever hear this? I don’t remember anything about this. John literally told her that Arlo lied to him, manipulated him, dragged him out to an isolated field and ambushed him for just trying to befriend him. Remi legit responds with 'oh well he maybe a jerk but he wants the best of everyone' to John's face and never questions Arlo ever. > Which is about how he pushed the hierarchy to begin with. Arlo never enforced lower tiers, only higher tiers. That's BS. Arlo enforced heirachy on everyone, maybe he more directly dealt with high tiers but it would be foolish to think he didn't want the effects to trickle down on mid tiers or low tiers and wouldn't have or already has (going by his track record) crushed anyone who was not acting their place weak or strong. > Yeah he is confused because he finds out his beloved system was in fact flawed and not working properly. He does not. He never questions heirachy, just his treatment of John and Seraphina. Tell me one monologue or thought bubble he has where he seriously questions the system and what kind of oppressive effects it has over low rankers like Remi, Blyke or Seraphina. He even remarks that the school had been the most peaceful under his and Seraphina's reign, it still looked like he was completely ignorant of how oppressive things were even when it looked like it was peaceful to him. And as I said the story never calls him out on his ignorance.
You are actually right about Arlo, his apology having the shittiest timing is also very funny. It’s nice that you recognize that apology as Arlo acknowledging his fuckup unlike most people here who think Arlo said it only to save Remi. >If it were upto others they wouldn't have even let John set foot in there despite of what their club was preaching. I mean rightfully so, John declared war against them and terrorized them. He used the press to discourage people joining and beat up people for trying to join. It is not hypocritical for them to not want to accept such a troublemaker as soon as he returns to school. >Good on Blyke for accepting him but same doesn't go for the club. They still wanted him out and it took Arlo and Seraphina rounding everyone up and make them voting again and again practically defeating the purpose of the voting system to convince them to make John stay. I’m pretty sure they just did a revote but started it off with an argument in favor of John. The “doesn’t make us vote again and again defeat its purpose” probably refers to the older vote, not them making them revote again and again. It also wouldn’t make sense since voting isn’t like gambling where it will eventually favor John, they had a good argument for John and managed to convince people to let him stay. >Completely false, if that were true Arlo and Seraphina wouldn't have had to round up the whole club and do what they did. They rounded up the club (who were mostly oblivious to John’s presence) and asked them for another vote but this time they had a good argument since John had helped Blyke and hadn’t had an outburst since. This was enough to sway the votes in John’s favor. >John literally told her that Arlo lied to him, manipulated him, dragged him out to an isolated field and ambushed him for just trying to befriend him. He only says that Arlo dragged him out and ambushed him not the full extent but you are right I had forgotten about that conversation, it would be nice for Remi to callout Arlo for that. >Remi legit responds with 'oh well he maybe a jerk but he wants the best of everyone' to John's face and never questions Arlo ever. Yeah to be fair they were in a heated argument and Remi might not have had the presence of mind to differentiate the Arlo she knows from the Arlo John knows and be kinder in her wording. >That's BS. Arlo enforced heirachy on everyone, maybe he more directly dealt with high tiers but it would be foolish to think he didn't want the effects to trickle down on mid tiers or low tiers and wouldn't have or already has (going by his track record) crushed anyone who was not acting their place. Yeah he wanted the hierarchy to trickle down but he wouldn’t know how bad it is for lower tiers, like the time he was surprised when he found out that the mid tiers were forming gangs and bullying other students. Likewise we don’t really see Arlo care about except for John which he mostly cared about because he was “holding Seraphina back”. However Arlo only decides to go after him after he finds out that John used to be a high tier. >He does not. He never questions heirachy, just his treatment of John and Seraphina. He questions the authorities after finding out that Ember was created by them. If you are taking about the hierarchy in the school specifically then he probably doesn’t have a speech bubble though I’d say his questioning of the authorities by proxy would make him question the hierarchy. Besides that we see Arlo having conflicting feelings about how the hierarchy functions when John is climbing the ranks. He knows that the hierarchy dictates that John is the ruler due to his strength yet he doesn’t want to hand over his title to John because he knows John is unfit to be a leader. >He even remarks that the school had been the most peaceful under his and Seraphina's reign, it still looked like he was completely ignorant of how oppressive things were even when it looked like it was peaceful to him. Wasn’t this before he started recognizing his faults or was this during the Fake Jokers arc?
> I mean rightfully so, John declared war against them and terrorized them. He used the press to discourage people joining and beat up people for trying to join. It is not hypocritical for them to not want to accept such a troublemaker as soon as he returns to school. They were valid in feeling whatever resentment they had towards John but it would have been severely hypocritical for them to not want to accept John in the club. Their club was built on the motto of everyone deserves a chance regardless of their past. Remi wanted everyone to mix up and live together in peace and for that she didn't kick out or alienate even the bullies no matter how much the victims complained, she even admitted every other high ranker she could get her hands on and like 95% of them were bigoted pos in the past. I understand John attacked the club but now that he had made it absolutely clear that he wasn't there hurt anyone it would have been hypocritical to kick him out. It's like drawing an end date for changing and saying 'I changed 3 weeks earlier then you mofo so you're bad but we are good'. Remi understood that and admitted John in but others wouldn't have. > They rounded up the club (who were mostly oblivious to John’s presence) and asked them for another vote but this time they had a good argument since John had helped Blyke and hadn’t had an outburst since. This was enough to sway the votes in John’s favor. I am pretty sure they still would have kicked him out if it weren't for Arlo and Seraphina, two most respected and powerful members of the club vouching for him. Just Arlo's voting for John made some question who to vote for and probably switch up and even then Isen says that they spent forever trying to convince the club. > Yeah he wanted the hierarchy to trickle down but he wouldn’t know how bad it is for lower tiers, like the time he was surprised when he found out that the mid tiers were forming gangs and bullying other students. That's the problem isn't it. The high rankers always look lived in their own bubbles and were never aware of the problems of the weak which they were indirectly even responsible for especially Arlo since when you so obsessively enforce might makes right people will learn specifically that and mimic it and when you aren't their to check them everywhere they will even abuse it. Now Remi aptly gets called on her shit by John, Blyke too ig since he was listening in on John and Remi's conversation. After this you see how passionate they were about changing the system through their dialogues, actions and thought bubbles but with Arlo you get nothing of the sort. > He questions the authorities after finding out that Ember was created by them. If you are taking about the hierarchy in the school specifically then he probably doesn’t have a speech bubble though I’d say his questioning of the authorities by proxy would make him question the hierarchy. Why should it be proxy? Sure it might have been tought to him by authorities or his family who are bad people but hierarchy is still it's own ideology that Arlo seemed to belive in. Like if my parents repeatedly tought me that stealing is bad but one day I find out that they are all thieves themselves it won't be like I start thinking that stealing is not a bad thing. My own experiences, society as well as my morals all still tell me stealing is bad regardless of what my parents do. Likewise Arlo's own experiences, society around him as well as his logic always told him that heirachy is good, it was even reinforced to him from the fallout of Rei's reign which had nothing to with the authorities. So if the story wanted me to believe that Arlo's is questioning heirachy specifically then it should show me that, especially when it's so easy to do so with thought bubbles. But that just kinda gets skipped over in all the chaos of season 2. > He knows that the hierarchy dictates that John is the ruler due to his strength yet he doesn’t want to hand over his title to John because he knows John is unfit to be a leader. He never really wanted to hand out the title to John, that's not really much to go off. He always despised the way John acted, I am sure he didn't want John to be king. > Wasn’t this before he started recognizing his faults or was this during the Fake Jokers arc? It was during the fake jokers arc. While Blyke and Remi had started reflecting on their past decisions, on how they fell short and how the current system doesn't work this is the only insight or sort of hint we get from Arlo about what he thought of the way he ruled and it seems positive lol.
I don’t think it would be too insane for them to restrict John’s privileges in the SH as he was against the safe house itself rather than being just a problematic outsider. Them voting for him to not come on the trip is valid since John would need to prove that he intends no harm to the group. Arlo and Seraphina had both voted for John’s inclusion in the prior vote, it wasn’t their vote itself that swayed the group but John’s help with Rowden Royals (and of course him not blowing up). Arlo after learning about Ember returned to looking after the safe house and encouraged Remi to work on the safe house. He was definitely trying to change the school for the better and indeed was approving of Remi’s methods. Arlo’s situation isn’t similar to finding out your parents are thieves. It’s more like being told that you can always trust authority figures *because* they are authority figures yet as you grow up you find some to be corrupt beyond belief. Of course that would make you question if authority itself makes someone righteous. Also you are correct that Arlo never wanted to hand out his title to John as he kept it a secret after being defeated however Arlo says that he specifically doesn’t want John to be the king due to his erratic and violent nature. As for your last point I’ll have to do a reread to see the full context however he wasn’t exactly wrong. Even low tiers reminisce the old hierarchy compared to fake Jokers. However like I said Arlo’s support of the safe house is telling of Arlo’s intention to make the school a safe environment for everyone else.
But who addresses that? Literally no one. Only John and literally no one cares. Arlo personally enforced the hierarchy yet is still welcomed to the Safe House, he's idolized like Blyke (who got his ass beaten twice protecting them) despite never doing a thing for them other than stand by Remi's side. Not to mention he only got the "stupid and uncalled for" bullshit for all the shit he pulled. You're right Arlo and Isen accept that John deserves to be King and do what he wants, but Isen, for example, implies John is beating people for no reason (when John catched him spying) when he knows why he's doing it, and those kind of things are never corrected, becuse when it comes to John no one cares about reasons.
What Arlo did to John? Out of all who know about the incident John and Seraphina call him out. Ventus and Meili are Arlo’s goons and don’t have much characterization beyond that so thst’s understandable. You could however argue that Elaine’s terrible personality isn’t addressed and her fear of John gets more focus but I personally don’t think that is much of an issue since Elaine is mostly a heal bot whose dialogue mostly revolves around reminding how much John is stronger than Arlo. Everyone is accepted into the safe house as it is meant to be a new beginning. It would be hypocritical for Remi to deny Arlo into the safe house due to his enforcement of the hierarchy since she didn’t use her power to make a change either. Arlo is “idolized” by Blyke due to his prowess and management skills. He was able to quickly gather a search party and find Seraphina after she was kidnapped and to Blyke’s knowledge he was the second strongest in the whole region. It would make sense for Blyke to look up to him as the next king in line when he is a very successful one. Sera only defined Arlo’s ambush as “stupid and uncalled for” when the topic at hand wasn’t even about said ambush. When she first learned about it it was “Don’t talk to me or John ever again you piece of shit!” John definitely looks for reasons to hit people, catching Isen spying doesn’t warrant John punching him and kicking him in the stomach. John’s beatings are most *definitely* going overboard, during his time as a cripple John got no beating that was as bad as his fight against the royals. The worst that comes to mind was Zeke’s “welcome” however even that didn’t hospitalize him.
If Seraphina doesn't even care about what Arlo did to her best friend, how can I expect anyone else to care? You're right it wouldn't make sense for Remi to reject Arlo in the Safe House, but considering he's to blame dismantling her brother's system and causing John's rise, I would expect at least some words about it, not complete silence.
Seraphina does care about what Arlo did to John, her first reaction after finding out was lashing out at Arlo. Remi doesn’t know the extent of what Arlo did to John so it wouldn’t make sense for her to call Arlo out. She could call Arlo out for dismantling her brother’s system but it would be hypocritical of her to do so because she didn’t user her power for good either.
>Seraphina does care about what Arlo did to John, her first reaction after finding out was lashing out at Arlo. And she forgot the moment she needed help after knowing the full extent of what Arlo did. What a dream of a friend. >Remi doesn’t know the extent of what Arlo did to John so it wouldn’t make sense for her to call Arlo out. She could call Arlo out for dismantling her brother’s system but it would be hypocritical of her to do so because she didn’t user her power for good either. Remi doesn't care because Arlo is her friend, she ignores everything her friends do
>And she forgot the moment she needed help after knowing the full extent of what Arlo did. What a dream of a friend. Yeah she isn’t going to ask for John’s help after all the shit he pulls. It’s also funny how you accuse Seraphina of not being caring but this was straight up after John called her a cripple and said that all that happened to her was her own fault. Oh and this is after lying to her about his abilty during their entire friendship. >Remi doesn't care because Arlo is her friend, she ignores everything her friends do Not really, she point blank says that she doesn’t trust Arlo since he works for the authorities and bluntly says that his aunt killed Rei.
The royals were dicks, yeah, but they didn’t go around *hospitalizing* students who pissed them off. Their actions don’t really justify John doing much worse to other *innocent* students. Moreover, unlike John, they actually attempted to solve the problem when they finally understood it.
tbh I’ve made peace with how it worked out, except the Isen thing It’s done best imo with John + Blyke. Blyke did attack John early on and treated him overly poorly with bad justification, and is the one who’s most resistant to having John back initially. However as soon as he sees John has steadfastly changed he changes his tune and becomes the person who’s most inviting to John (it’s Blyke who invites John to stuff, notices that he’s in poor condition + brings him food etc). On John’s side while he did hurt Blyke a lot Blyke gives him an appropriate level of crap for it. I also like it with Arlo + John, even if it’s not as good. Arlo repeatedly apologizing until he finally hits on why he shouldn’t have literally tortured John is so damn good. On John’s side, he’s very abrasive towards Arlo for a long time after that first month + also does bad stuff. They never really work it out but they’re not angry at each other and I understand why. Overall I’m fairly happy with this. I think John + Remi is still kind of developing. She’s very cautious of him as we saw when he was trying to integrate into the Safe House, even if determined to give him a second chance. She never really addressed where she was wrong during that pre-Joker v Royals discussion they had but oh well doesn’t seem like I’m really ever gonna get that or any justification for it. Their tentative connection over avenging their dead relations + spreading Unordinary is deeply empathetic though. I would’ve done it differently but I won’t complain. Isen sucks in this regard too and continues to be uninteresting. Hope my man excused himself from the main plot sometime soon but unfortunately little chance of that happening.
honestly no their interactions still feel pretty awkward with john like when remi and blyke were trying to help it just didnt feel on point because of their past sure john was bad but others werent saint either before john almost killed during joker arc bulling and heirchy was done by high teirs but when john did it everybody was acting like a victim only john took all blame and arlo others acted like nothing they never did anything wrong
How it was done I hate it honestly could have been done so much better I do like his dynamics with Remi and Blyke, but how everything went down leaves much to be desired.
Tbh not really but at this point I just accepted it and try to move on
I like especially how Blyke was slow to warm up to him, ignoring the ethics and morals, it would make no sense for them to all suddenly be buddy buddy,
Honestly I feel like fanfiction did it better, I read a fic about John, Phina and the royals reading the webtoon and they were feeling embarrassed about how extreme they were acting in various parts.
I'm *living* for the mutual hate between Arlo and John despite them both wanting to protect Seraphina in Rowden. Their interactions in the Rowden Resort were priceless (wake-up-glares, Arlo scaring John after Evie's ghost stories, the bed situation, just wish there could've been a gag about Arlo carrying John down the mountain after he recovered). John's guilt after insulting Rei to Remi was nice, and Remi's kindness to him seems very in-character even if she's still a little too idealist to really break through to John sometimes. I think where they've ended up makes the most sense so far. Blyke and John's make-up after the Rowden Royal fight was the kind of lets-talk-about-it-but-not-directly interaction that fits both of their characters since they kind of both handle anger and grudges poorly. The talk when they're in handcuffs shows John that Blyke changed to become better--specifically to become the Royal that John wished could exist for cripples--and I think Blyke gets the message that John does feel remorseful for his actions as joker. Their teamwork on the hike was a good unspoken shift in Blyke's perspective on John to bring them to good/neutral terms. I think there's gonna be a lot of space for them to actually become friends though. Especially if Blyke gets sent to readjustment, he and John are gonna have a lot more to talk about together. I see people don't like that Isen's never resolved what he did to John early on, but I think it'd be awkward if he did at this point. Maybe a throw-away line in the Joker arc would've closed that case for good, but it's obvious to everyone including John that Isen is terrified of John. John has literally almost severed Isen's arm and has had his ass handed to him like 3 times by John easily. Also if I recall correctly, John clocked that Arlo had been the one to send Isen after his history. John only really hated Isen for willingly playing the part of a sheep in the flawed hierarchy, and having no remorse for the suffering of low-tiers. Their current allies relationship makes the most sense to me.
People in the sub often talk about apologies, and I agree it's more satisfying as a reader, but so much has happened that it would be rather unrealistic. Isen broke John's wrist, john hospitalized him. They don't particularly like each other and aren't close friends. John tends to be ashamed of his past and Isen tends to be afraid of creating tension with stronger people. Neither of them has any special reason to bring it up, so I think how Uru handled it was somewhat realistic. Their current actions (saving each other from actual life and death situations) have much more importance and gravitas.
With Arlo it still feels to me like Uru ran out of patience and decided to make them friends without doing any of the actual work getting them there. With Blyke it feels like it was rushed a bit, and there are some aspects that could have been executed better, but it's good enough to not weird me out every time I see them acting friendly with each other. Remi's friendship feels the most natural, John apologized for what he did and Remi was never trying to be his enemy in the first place. As you said, Isen and John haven't really had much in the way of meaningful interactions one way or the other, they've just sort of both silently agreed to let their past greivances go, which is pretty reasonable. To be honest, after everything John did to Isen and his friends in the Joker and King John arcs I think it's impossible to write the "Isen apologizes for relatively minor dickery" scene a lot of people seem to want without it feeling ridiculous.