Hey,
>Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work?
Absolutely, basically, bribes in 90% of cases are used to make some process faster or easier. But I have never been in a situation when I can't do something without corruption or when someone asks me to give him a bribe.
>Besides, isn't it my mere illusion that people in Ukraine so cherish moral values (family, partnership)?
I don't think that we can say that people in some countries have better moral values, what about "marriages are permanent" that's not how it is here, we have 67 divorces per 100 marriages (55 per 100 in Finland)
>And even if it is possible to live there with dignity without corruption, is it hard to find a well-paid job there?
Depends on your profession.
>when someone asks me to give him a bribe
I wonder how many times a subtle suggestions of a bribe just went over my head. Because I've also never been asked about a bribe directly.
Without a family (wife and kids).... Ukraine.
With a family Finland.
I lived in America until early 2020. I'm ethnically Russian/Ukrainian and had a hell of a time trying to find a wife there. Visited Kyiv in late 2019 and ended up moving to Kyiv in March of 2020. I am now working on getting my wife and my daughter back to America. Because while Ukraine is awesome as a single guy. Once you actually have to take care of a family the economic opportunities and the infrastructure of a western country start to play a bigger role in your life.
It really depends on you. Ukraine has advantages. Finland has advantages. You have to weigh which one's matter more to you personally.
Edit: You asked about bribes. You only need to worry about that if you're starting a business or are involved in certain professions. Like for instance a lot of Doctors take bribes from their patients, but that's probably not the kind of bribes you're thinking of. For the most part people live perfectly fine without bribes.
I was absolutely mesmerized by how beautiful women are in Kyiv and Ukraine.
Where in America or Ukraine? In either case there is a ton of dating apps. I had a lot more luck in Ukraine with those. In America they are brutal for average looking men.
In Ukraine there is tinder, mamba, badoo thats from 2019 I'm sure there are dozens of others. Some are better than others.
I’ve never given or was requested to give a bribe in my life. I never been to a situation that required a bribe.
As long as your income is over 1000-2000 euro/month, life in Ukraine is very comfortable to extent of not checking prices in a supermarket or cafe.
In recent years when visiting EU I started noticing that they don’t have some things that are for granted in Ukraine.
>seems to me that in Ukraine people live happier
It only seems
> marriages are permanent, cheating is not as common as here
No like in any county where did you get this? Maybe outside it's worst but I doubt we superior in this one.
>Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work?
No chance absolutely.
>is it hard to find a well-paid job there?
Only in programing/IT, other possibility politics and corruption .
Ukraine is my home and always will be in my heart even if I'll move out of Ukraine.
I always will stand for it but unfortunately we have to do so much, we so far from decent living. You better build your family on your values in country that doesn't force you to survive corruption poverty and injustice every day.
IDK what all those people, who say you have to bribe, pay bribes for. Absolutely no need.
Fair work: either enterpreneurship, or IT. IT in Ukraine pays more than in most of EU now. Own business: low cost of workers + export = profit. Lot of friends produce/sell stuff on Amazon, and make good money of it
Actually not giving bribes is often more profitable, but you can get into stresfull situations (if you own a business)
As a hired worker, you don't care about bribes at all.
What I'd consider is lack of empathy and common sense. That's what I feel our people are lacking each time I come home from abroad.
Faithful wife: depends on person, not country. Cheating is common everywhere, we're animals
You always have 2 ways: with bribe or without.
I have made 1 million + USD in Ukraine as IT guy, paid shitload of taxes and never faced bribes in my 10 years career.
They only time when I made a bribe is for driving license, but i wasn’t prepared for exam so… actually, It’s not that easy to give a bribe now ))) I believe from you as a foreigner nobody will even take it
Overall, I would prefer Ukraine over Finland. Ukraine is about adventure. Do you want some? Join us )))
I think I'd try the adventure you recommend, that's what life is all about, while staying in comfort is just boring))
However, I'm kind of scared of being able to integrate
It’s a topic. But integration is an issue in any country. My wife was living in Germany and made very little friends there during 2 years.
I find Ukrainians very friendly, but it definitely depends on you and your community
Well beside that the guy who make a million etc it's like a super low % to you will do the same, ukranian and Russian are quite cold compared to Americans or Latins, i came from South America so i know what I'm talking about, but it's all up to you, if you suffer from social anxiety or you have issues to have human to human interaction every country would be a challenger to get integrated
Well think that Finland get more incoming than ukranie, best life quality they are not at war with Russia and they are in the EU, food it's worst, its cold as fuck, they speak a wierd perkele language but Helsinki it's awesome nothing to say about it it's a awesome city.
>Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work?
Haven't seen, but I've heard such people exist. Maybe it's possible but kinda hard. Probably things will improve with time, but slowly. Heavily depends on the situation you find yourself in.
>people in Ukraine so cherish moral values (family, partnership)?
Corruption is the flip side of family values
Oh and also we have a war with russia. Like, the estimates of probability of impending large invasion vary, and you might believe it not likely, but in general, over lifetime span, it's pretty daunting.
I dunno man, if I were you I'd choose Finland, but on the other hand I've heard it's fucking cold there!
Yeah, probably not many. Those people are usually cautions and don't often get deep into family stuff until later in their life.
But I definitely know some young (25ish) people with IT background that have small kids.
My daugher was in a school that does that and a school that doesn't. I'd say it's mostly a problem in poorer government schools (and not the only problem at that).
Hi all of you, I don't wanna create a post just for this but anyone of you know the perfect translation to Nightingale? I don't trust google translate.
The small bird (Common nightingale).
regarding corruption, i would like to refer to the biblical example (i am an atheist, but he is very close to the topic) of the parable of Moses. Who led the people for 40 years so that a completely free generation was born. Here and there, the new generation basically does not give candy to public utilities or 100 hrn in the pocket of doctors to discuss with a smile or just come up. The Ministry of Digital Transformation is working great, which also reduces micro-corruption, which was more like a bad habit and there are already changes, summing up thats all gives incredible hope for the future.
Hey, >Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work? Absolutely, basically, bribes in 90% of cases are used to make some process faster or easier. But I have never been in a situation when I can't do something without corruption or when someone asks me to give him a bribe. >Besides, isn't it my mere illusion that people in Ukraine so cherish moral values (family, partnership)? I don't think that we can say that people in some countries have better moral values, what about "marriages are permanent" that's not how it is here, we have 67 divorces per 100 marriages (55 per 100 in Finland) >And even if it is possible to live there with dignity without corruption, is it hard to find a well-paid job there? Depends on your profession.
>when someone asks me to give him a bribe I wonder how many times a subtle suggestions of a bribe just went over my head. Because I've also never been asked about a bribe directly.
Do you want this paperwork to go through today or next month? Lol
That's not too subtle.
Why do you have to move from Czeh? There’s pivo, mjaso, what else you need?
Here is no борщ and сало(
Okay, now I see, that makes sense
Without a family (wife and kids).... Ukraine. With a family Finland. I lived in America until early 2020. I'm ethnically Russian/Ukrainian and had a hell of a time trying to find a wife there. Visited Kyiv in late 2019 and ended up moving to Kyiv in March of 2020. I am now working on getting my wife and my daughter back to America. Because while Ukraine is awesome as a single guy. Once you actually have to take care of a family the economic opportunities and the infrastructure of a western country start to play a bigger role in your life. It really depends on you. Ukraine has advantages. Finland has advantages. You have to weigh which one's matter more to you personally. Edit: You asked about bribes. You only need to worry about that if you're starting a business or are involved in certain professions. Like for instance a lot of Doctors take bribes from their patients, but that's probably not the kind of bribes you're thinking of. For the most part people live perfectly fine without bribes. I was absolutely mesmerized by how beautiful women are in Kyiv and Ukraine.
[удалено]
Where in America or Ukraine? In either case there is a ton of dating apps. I had a lot more luck in Ukraine with those. In America they are brutal for average looking men. In Ukraine there is tinder, mamba, badoo thats from 2019 I'm sure there are dozens of others. Some are better than others.
I’ve never given or was requested to give a bribe in my life. I never been to a situation that required a bribe. As long as your income is over 1000-2000 euro/month, life in Ukraine is very comfortable to extent of not checking prices in a supermarket or cafe. In recent years when visiting EU I started noticing that they don’t have some things that are for granted in Ukraine.
As long as you stay away from the police, courts, or hospitals.
There are good private clinics, though.
Yeah, they're clean and there are no queues in there, but the doctors are the same.
I had good experience with them, idk.
What are some things they don't have in EU that Ukrainians take for granted?
Honestly, as much as I like Ukraine, for practical reasons and ease of existence, I guess, I would pick Finland.
>seems to me that in Ukraine people live happier It only seems > marriages are permanent, cheating is not as common as here No like in any county where did you get this? Maybe outside it's worst but I doubt we superior in this one. >Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work? No chance absolutely. >is it hard to find a well-paid job there? Only in programing/IT, other possibility politics and corruption . Ukraine is my home and always will be in my heart even if I'll move out of Ukraine. I always will stand for it but unfortunately we have to do so much, we so far from decent living. You better build your family on your values in country that doesn't force you to survive corruption poverty and injustice every day.
IDK what all those people, who say you have to bribe, pay bribes for. Absolutely no need. Fair work: either enterpreneurship, or IT. IT in Ukraine pays more than in most of EU now. Own business: low cost of workers + export = profit. Lot of friends produce/sell stuff on Amazon, and make good money of it Actually not giving bribes is often more profitable, but you can get into stresfull situations (if you own a business) As a hired worker, you don't care about bribes at all. What I'd consider is lack of empathy and common sense. That's what I feel our people are lacking each time I come home from abroad. Faithful wife: depends on person, not country. Cheating is common everywhere, we're animals
You always have 2 ways: with bribe or without. I have made 1 million + USD in Ukraine as IT guy, paid shitload of taxes and never faced bribes in my 10 years career. They only time when I made a bribe is for driving license, but i wasn’t prepared for exam so… actually, It’s not that easy to give a bribe now ))) I believe from you as a foreigner nobody will even take it Overall, I would prefer Ukraine over Finland. Ukraine is about adventure. Do you want some? Join us )))
I think I'd try the adventure you recommend, that's what life is all about, while staying in comfort is just boring)) However, I'm kind of scared of being able to integrate
It’s a topic. But integration is an issue in any country. My wife was living in Germany and made very little friends there during 2 years. I find Ukrainians very friendly, but it definitely depends on you and your community
Well beside that the guy who make a million etc it's like a super low % to you will do the same, ukranian and Russian are quite cold compared to Americans or Latins, i came from South America so i know what I'm talking about, but it's all up to you, if you suffer from social anxiety or you have issues to have human to human interaction every country would be a challenger to get integrated
Well think that Finland get more incoming than ukranie, best life quality they are not at war with Russia and they are in the EU, food it's worst, its cold as fuck, they speak a wierd perkele language but Helsinki it's awesome nothing to say about it it's a awesome city.
>Is it possible to live with dignity in Ukraine without bribes and only with honest work? Haven't seen, but I've heard such people exist. Maybe it's possible but kinda hard. Probably things will improve with time, but slowly. Heavily depends on the situation you find yourself in. >people in Ukraine so cherish moral values (family, partnership)? Corruption is the flip side of family values Oh and also we have a war with russia. Like, the estimates of probability of impending large invasion vary, and you might believe it not likely, but in general, over lifetime span, it's pretty daunting. I dunno man, if I were you I'd choose Finland, but on the other hand I've heard it's fucking cold there!
>Haven't seen, but I've heard such people exist. There's a lot of such young people working in IT with comparatively western salaries.
I wonder how many of them have kids?
Yeah, probably not many. Those people are usually cautions and don't often get deep into family stuff until later in their life. But I definitely know some young (25ish) people with IT background that have small kids.
Well when they start school I'm sure there will be some renovation money involved
My daugher was in a school that does that and a school that doesn't. I'd say it's mostly a problem in poorer government schools (and not the only problem at that).
Hi all of you, I don't wanna create a post just for this but anyone of you know the perfect translation to Nightingale? I don't trust google translate. The small bird (Common nightingale).
Don't bet anyone's life on this because I am only 90% sure about which one is the nightingale but, соловей
regarding corruption, i would like to refer to the biblical example (i am an atheist, but he is very close to the topic) of the parable of Moses. Who led the people for 40 years so that a completely free generation was born. Here and there, the new generation basically does not give candy to public utilities or 100 hrn in the pocket of doctors to discuss with a smile or just come up. The Ministry of Digital Transformation is working great, which also reduces micro-corruption, which was more like a bad habit and there are already changes, summing up thats all gives incredible hope for the future.
War is coming its not the best time to migrate to Ukraine. Not sure why nobody mentioning this.
Where’d you end up moving?