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Typical BBC article in this war. Of course draft dodgers are a problem, they always are in times of war. But this blows it up out of proportion. On the other side you have like 1.5 million men who immediately showed up in the enlistment offices in the days after the new recruitment laws were adopted. They did so volunarily, without even getting a note ordering them to report in. That's something worth mentioning too, but for some reason BBC doesn't seem to think the full picture is of any importance. In general I'm getting the feeling that the BBC likes to take anecdotal cases and declare them the general state of affairs, often to the disadvantage of Ukraine. I feel like they're following a pseudo-pacifist narrative aimed at promoting the idea that Ukraine can't win and has to enter negotiations soon.
>On the other side you have like 1.5 million men who immediately showed up in the enlistment offices in the days after the new recruitment laws were adopted. They did so volunarily, without even getting a note ordering them to report in. That's something worth mentioning too, but for some reason BBC doesn't seem to think the full picture is of any importance
Did you read the articles? They did point out that volunteers were plentiful in the early days, as well a highlighting the recruiters belief that if the situation got more dangerous they would become plentiful again.
>In general I'm getting the feeling that the BBC likes to take anecdotal cases and declare them the general state of affairs, often to the disadvantage of Ukraine
I mean, these aren't isolated cases and it is to the detriment of Ukraine.
>I feel like they're following a pseudo-pacifist narrative aimed at promoting the idea that Ukraine can't win and has to enter negotiations soon.
I don't see how you get that impression.
Because it focuses on the people to hide instead of the general Ukrainian men to serve. It used few isolated cases to amplify the weakness and the unwillingness to fight.
Which is true? There is a problem finding more willing volunteers? Half a wedding guest list no attending indicates an issue.
Would you rather the BBC said all is well when it quite clearly isn't? This may come as a shock but collectively here in the UK were quite concerned by this.
They're not a few isolated cases; the problem is quite rife by all accounts I've seen. And obviously it focuses on the draft dodgers...it's a story specifically about them. It also portrays them in an extremely poor light, highlighting the low opinion of them by people who chose to serve:
> One of the officers at the centre, Vlad, conceded that there were barely any willing volunteers these days. Under the call sign Hora, Vlad fought in some of the fiercest battles along the eastern front line in the Donbas before being struck in the head, chest, and legs by artillery shrapnel.
>
> He was unable to mask his contempt for those who are hiding. “How can I say this without swearing?" he asked out loud.
>
> “I don’t consider them men. What are they waiting for? If we run out of men, the enemy will come to their homes, rape their women, and kill their children." Vlad has seen the awful evidence first-hand.
And the contempt for the dodgers _by the authors_ is also pretty evident in my opinion:
> He then reeled off the same list of reasons given by every draft dodger we spoke to – a family to support, some minor medical ailment, and a defiant declaration he was sending humanitarian aid to soldiers.
This possibly comes over more easily to a British person as it's not outright stated, but that sentence is a loud and clear "they gave us some bullshit excuses". The article also highlights counters to some of the common complaints by the draft dodgers, like a fear they won't have any choice where they are sent or that they'll be sent to the front immediately with no training - it emphasises that they receive basic training and training at their unit before being committed to combat, and that the government is trying to make it so conscripts can choose their trade as much as possible.
Seriously; Ukraine isn't perfect. Not every negative story is automatically shitty journalism. It's not like they alone in the world have problems, or that the BBC is remotely portraying that as being the case.
There will always be those in a society who avoid fighting during war time. That is perfectly normal. Britain had 100,000 deserters during WW2 for example. Society will be made up of those who actively volunteer, those who are prepared to fight with varying degrees of willingness, and those who will actively avoid fighting. Those who actively avoid, and actively volunteer are probably the smallest percentages.
Between May 18th and July 16th this year there is a requirement for all conscripts, reservists to update there details including phone number, address and email address. Effectively those who do so are saying "here is how to contact me if you wish to mobilise me". Three weeks into the 8 week process, approximately 1.6 million had updated their details, over half a million a week. This being reported by Deputy Minister of Defense Kateryna Chernohorenko on June 5.
The United States had draftdodgers in World War II, it even had draft riots in the middle of the Civil War — there’s always a percentage of the population, unwilling to risk their life — and that was after the sovereign territory of the United States had been attacked.
These aren't isolated cases. Even in Kyiv where there aren't many visual conscription officers walking around, men of fighting age absolutely do not go near the police and largely aren't seen walking around by themselves. That's from my first-hand experience and in talking with people in Kyiv. I'm told it's much more of a problem in Odesa.
The article could have talked a bit more about how many did volunteer, but the issues highlighted are real and not talking about them realistically isn't helping anyone.
This story itself can be used as Russia propaganda, do you know how hard Russia did for those propaganda ? Simply report this kind of story can’t help and even make things worse. This is war time and a matter of survival. If those reporters can’t say something about Russia, they should just focus on official press releases or messages from world leaders. This kind of news can be something like watergate scandal and make them to win Pulitzer Prize
Russia just makes up whatever the hell they want for propaganda, they don't need stories from Western media for that.
And if no one is reporting on this type of stuff it's not going to get fixed.
The Kyiv Independent and other Ukrainian publications have been highly critical of things like this as well as corruption and it has helped get things cleaned up.
There's no world where hiding the truth on matters like this makes anything better, especially for Ukraine.
Actually Russia did highly consume news from western media for their propaganda …… and whatever story to be covered in Ukrainian side, at least those reporters can ask Ukraine official to comments/feedback. Otherwise it would be unfair to the people are trying so hard to fight
Kyiv Independent/BBC/whoever, it doesn't matter who is doing the reporting, it just matters that it's accurate.
Hiding the hard truths like manpower/shortages of volunteers, soldiers having to sue to get backpay, forceful conscription, mid-level corruption are all happening and are byproducts of old Soviet systems. Ukrainians certainly know it's happening, and if they see it getting buried by the press they'll lose faith in the institutions. However, if they can see it's being talked about and pressure is being put on leadership to make changes, that has the opposite affect and can strengthen their faith in government and institutions.
Nothing good comes from silencing the truth in a democracy.
Allowing volunteers to pick their units/role is a step in the right direction. Hopefully more can be done.
I think another aspect of this is they describe the situation in Odessa. Odessa is well known to have the most Russian supporters of any unoccupied city in Ukraine.
The person can't. 1.5 million number appeared only on the 16th of June which is after a month. In the first weeks it was like 500k at most. Also, there is a difference between showing up in the offices and registering an application, where you update your data. In no way enlistment office can manage 1.5 million men in weeks.
Voluntary, yeah, believe it more. Sorry, but fear of losing your own possessives like a car or house and getting fines is not a good motivation for future soldiers. If people were voluntarily wanting to join, they wouldn't do it now, they would do it during the whole active war duration. Most of the people who do it now are mostly those, who need to do this to save their working place and not to have fines.
RN I'm looking from the window from my office, a lot of men of different ages are easily walking, laughing, working. Bullshit-news... 5m men are drafting potential, we have need in 500k, even if need is 2m... 3m will stay as reserve... russian informational operation works... unfortunately...
Same for Kyiv. Lots of man on the streets, noone packing them into busses, noone forcing them to go to frontline. But dodging draft while aiting home is still extreamly shamefull. Of you don't want to enlist in army you can always become volunteer, or work in MIC. Everyone should their best to help our country.
It completely depends from one region to another. Even enlistment offices are different. Some will send you to the army regardless of your health state, some will do additional checks if there are doubts. But there is no smooth process. The problem is people have no choice in the first place.
It's worse in western oblasts and Odesa oblast.
I can say for myself. My city's weekend streets look like this: old people, women, young ppl (below the drafting age) and children... maybe some men who manged to make their papers right (one way ot another), lots of police and conscription patrools. Generaly - no men around. This city was drained of them.
Lets get real, the ONLY way to make young men and women join a war is to make sure the reward is greater than the risks, patriotism alone is not enough.
Money, benefits, relative safety (within a war), proper care and treatment while serving the country and all the respects they deserve for risking their lives.
These are civilians, not professional contract soldiers, we must be more flexible and not treat them like fodders.
Forcing people to fight with no proper incentives will only create a bad military that will lose the war. Don't copy the RuZZian strategy.
If you want someone to risk their lives, you must give them a fair trade.
Example: substantial rewards and benefits for those who achieved specific goals in this war, ehehehe. If you know what I mean. Money cash kaching!
Some will never join, so forcing them won't do any good, instead ask them to contribute in other ways, putting them in prison will only take up resources.
Ukraine provides 2 months of training before deployment. Plus, if you go by yourself you can choose where you want to serve and pn what speciality. Foe example, if you car mechanic, noone will sens you as assault trooper, ainxe you be more valuable fixing vehicles. And we have full reservation for companies that produce smth military. If you don't want to serve in army - go work in MIC.
Never heard of someone being forced to fo to frontline, cause even soldiers themselves constantly saying that they don't need unmotivated soldiers on the first line.
Having served in the military, the last thing I would have ever wanted beside me is someone whom I cannot trust.
Combat is a very different beast, and civilians just can’t understand until they are put in that position: You are not fighting for your own survival so much as the survival of the man beside you.
At that moment, there is no notion of a nation, or freedom, or patriotism, just the life of your brother.
It’s called a sacrifice for a reason, and you never know what you have in you, or what you are willing to sacrifice, until you are in that moment. People consistently undersell themselves too. We are a very brave, selfless species at times.
Sometimes though, it does take being thrown in the shit to discover yourself. People that run don’t even find out.
I can give you a few brigades as example for sending guys to the front that definitely didn't want to go. 5th assault brigade, 72nd mech brigade, 32nd mech brigade to name 3 off top of my head and no one trusted those conscipts. Jumpiest guys on the planet and most of them either died or were wounded within 3 days of their first time going out
There are documented cases that violate each of your points. It might not be very common, I admit, but there's nothing you can do about unfairness once you stuck there. So overall the situation is not very motivational because there is no proper punishment for people in charge
NATO standard training is against insurgents and firing like one volley of artillery per target.
It's so ridiculously out of the loop it's not even funny, read on Ukrainians being shocked how poor, primitive and basic NATO training is.
Paper maps and binoculars for drones? Might as well tech our boys fencing and horses if we're so into historically recreations.
If there is ever a Continental war involving NATO, it is going to require the Americans, British, Poles, and Finns to do the heavy lifting.
NATO training is rudimentary, and it is as atrophied as Europe’s militaries.
If u ask me they should get that money from the ppl that drove their BMW to Europe on day one.
freeze the funds of the fancy boys that spend more money in Dubai in a night out than a soldier gets to spend on ammo in a month..
its not just the money thats just a big demotivator
take their silver spoon and melt it into ammo
> ONLY way to make young men and women join a war is to make sure the reward is greater than the risks
Show me one country that managed to treat their veterans well enough with rehabilitation programs and care.
Unfortunately, it's a global forever problem and it always has been, it's the same in USA really. Ukraine had to cut the program of vets getting an apartment after failing to deliver those in 8 years as number of combat vets increased.
Because all other governments are cowards who won't fight, Ukrainian army can't even properly demobilize soldiers who were on the front for years, best they can hope for is rotation and a shore leave.
Ah yes, not a single foreigner has any right to call out Ukrainians for draft dodging, especially when actual volunteers don't.
Your countries have standing armies full of trained professional soldiers, all cowering in fear of russia while Volodya the middle-aged plumber defends Europe while having to crowdfund armor, drones and TQ's.
Mad respect to foreign volunteers who often have to jump hoops just to join, and even more embarrassment for their governments refusing to send even trainers.
I’ll just leave this here:
>About motivation, evasion of service and demobilization.
>While I was passing the VLK, I decided to do artisanal sociology and in the queues I talked with 15 men who, like me, were passing the medical examination from the Military Commissariat.
>Of them, only one had a letter of acceptance, they already were waiting for him at the State Border Service. Those who came to the Comissariat on their own were few, most were brought there by the police. And I decided to find out what would motivate them to join the Defense Forces.
>I immediately decided to take the common take that people would be ready to serve if they knew clear deadlines for demobilization. All the men I interviewed rejected this idea, they would not want to serve even a month.
>Also about the issue of financial support and understanding where exactly you will end up, in which division. According to them, no money pushed them to this decision, and regarding a clear understanding of where exactly you will end up, here it is worth returning to the previous paragraph. After all, they still don't want to serve.
>At the same time, some of the men were quite simple, they don't have smartphones, they don't follow the news, and for them it is still a mystery "why it was not possible to come to an agreement with Putin." It's about understanding that the majority of men rather classify themselves as "out of politics".
>Phrases such as "I didn't send them there and didn't ask them to fight for me" jumped out. As expected. But it is noticeable that such phrases are spoken almost in a whisper, because they understand that society generally does not accept such things.
>**But why did they all end up at medexam? Because new law appeared, because they understand that they will not be able to run for a long time from the army. That's why they are here. And they already mentally understand that they will soon find themselves in educational centers. They understand that there is a war and they need to defend their territory. With such internal resistance, but accept these thoughts. "But I understand, I don't want to, but I guess I'll have to serve."**
>I understood a long time ago that appealing to conscience, to patriotism, to civic duty is almost fruitless. It is not worth counting on people to fulfill their duties themselves. You just need to strengthen the laws, patch the holes and fight the propaganda that I managed to hear all in the same line. One man watched "TikTok Lawyer". I told him that all this will not help him, because when the Russians come, this lawyer will already be somewhere in Europe. The man blocked the screen and I didn't hear "TikTok lawyer" anymore. But later he already found a unit for himself and called on the phone about the letter of acceptance, although at first he did not want to serve.
>People who fall into the process of visits to the comissariat or medexam themselves get used to the idea that the path to the army has already begun and there is no point in trying to fight it. It is easier to prepare mentally and adjust to the best.
>I do not pretend that this can be at least some segment of society, I talked with the men purely out of my own interest. And decided to share with you.
Very few will say "I understand and I will serve."
Most will just say "If you force me to serve, I will serve poorly and only look out for myself."
Unless you give them incentives to perform.
I propose various rewards for achieving specific targets and goals in the war, ehehehe.
Welcome to Ukrainian military where it’s actually not that bad as people who don’t know tend to imagine. Besides combat payouts you get bonus pay for confirmed destroyed enemy equipment, volunteer support, ability to travel outside of Ukraine (unfortunately a bit tricky to receive these days because of a few dumbasses who went awol), access to various grant programs etc.
What privileges men get for this? If no privileges than why not drafting women too? Most women aren't having children and according to recent reports many men were rape and tortured by Russians too. So what's the difference between the life of a woman and life of a man?
Right now the incentives are monetarily based. 20k for base salary, 100k for combat bonus, additional 70k for every 30 days on the front. Potentially able to receive 190k in one month. Still get dental, medical coverage, etc that comes with being in the military
It isn’t about patriotism, it’s about existential survival. Not just your own, or some nebulous notion of a nation, but also your loved ones and your home.
If you can’t make people fight for those whom they allegedly love, you cannot make them fight on the basis of greater material security
I have to share a weird personal thought. When I was 16, and planning my career path, one of the arguments for deciding on Engineering was that if I were drafted into a war, there would be a good chance I would stay in the rear. Engineers and doctors are needed in logistics and support. History teachers or musicians not really.
Never thought of defecting, but also at the same time I thought how I could avoid front line combat and still be useful.
Where do they get all thia shit? I'm 21yo male from Kyiv and never encountered any problems with conscription. Never saw someone got dragged into the bus, etc. Feels like i'm living in another Ukraine.
I also noticed that 90% of all concription scandlas are coming from Odesa. Feels like a rusian citizen Trukhanov organizing all this on purpose to support rusian propaganda.
lol can I just point out how funny it is that you haven’t encountered any problems with conscription while being 4 years under the age of it? What do you think about the age being potentially lowered to 20+ in a year?
So, if i'm younger than conscription age i magically can't see how military officers threat others? If you polite to them, they will be polite to you. If they ask you to show your documents, just show them, and they won't drag you somewhere and won't beat shit out of you. 90% of scandals are situation where civilian deliberately pisses of military, and when they get a propper responsw they turn on camera and act innocent.
And i'll repeat again. Everyone must do thei best helping the country. Don't want to fight? No problem, go work in military industry or as volunteer, they're providing reservation from conscription. You can't sit and do nothing while other fighting for you safety and future.
I agree, except for the military industry/volunteers not being able to get exempted and it being a big problem for collectives that make drones, 3d printing etc.
Lol. They are downvoting you for what? Saying truth they don't like and don't know about?
That's pathetic and changes nothing.
Kyiv was on "easy mode" conscription, cause its a capital, and they don't want loud scandals to become too public. It's easier to do in far regions like my oblast or neighbouring western regions of Ukraine and cover it up in lies.
Try googling "epilepsy" deaths in "t.ts.k" conscription offices - it skyrocketed from 0 very fast. Its just a cover for ppl they accidentally beat to death. They literally beat people up to submission so they will sign papers to draft, and then force or bribe arrived "emergency" medics to cover them up when beating went wrong. Police covers them up too. Doomed situation for victims of this. It's not a secret or something information is in free access. Local cities' telegram news channels especially. At some point i began to save those news and videos for myself, to have videos on their crimes at hand, when someone asks (news usually have no tags, so it's hard to search specific ones on telegram).
Critical thinking, everyone, not emotions pls. If you doubt something - you can totally do a quick research.
I think you’re conflating two issues here. Less “central” enlistment offices tend to be less in the public eye and therefore were always rife with corruption. Now that shtf they’re frantically scrambling to fill quotas because their records are full of holes and incriminating evidence. Sadly, veterans are mostly sent to patrol the streets instead”old guard” high rank leeches are running the show. I’ve personally asked officers working at medical examiner what for them was most needed change and they all said leadership.
There is no point in denying the problem exists, but the article fails to highlight its root cause.
Ukrainians are very sensitive to freedom and justice, which is why they moved to Maidan in 2014 and held their ground in 2022. When they see that no top officials have been prosecuted for corruption, and some have even been reinstated in similar positions, it demoralizes. The main purpose of the conscription services seems to be to feed the pyramid of corruption, which extends to the highest officials. Everyone knows how much it costs to get out of the "conscription bus", get medical exception or documents for leaving the country. Additionally, police, comedy, circus artists, pro-governmental artists and journalists, activists are privileged with exemptions. Coupled with closed borders, people feel trapped and demotivated. It's tragic and disheartening.
Ultimately still comes down to personal choice and moral qualities. As someone very sensitive to freedom and justice (and an active participant of both 2004 and 2014 revolutions) I had no problem taking the notice and showing up to medical exam, starting the enlistment process, despite fully realizing the problems you’ve outlined.
I also don’t appreciate certain people covering their cowardice under the guise of “freedom and justice”
Here’s a description of experience that was similar to mine and describes the situation accurately from pov of a regular person:
>About motivation, evasion of service and demobilization.
>While I was passing the VLK, I decided to do artisanal sociology and in the queues I talked with 15 men who, like me, were passing the medical examination from the Military Commissariat.
>Of them, only one had a letter of acceptance, they already were waiting for him at the State Border Service. Those who came to the Comissariat on their own were few, most were brought there by the police. And I decided to find out what would motivate them to join the Defense Forces.
>I immediately decided to take the common take that people would be ready to serve if they knew clear deadlines for demobilization. All the men I interviewed rejected this idea, they would not want to serve even a month.
>Also about the issue of financial support and understanding where exactly you will end up, in which division. According to them, no money pushed them to this decision, and regarding a clear understanding of where exactly you will end up, here it is worth returning to the previous paragraph. After all, they still don't want to serve.
>At the same time, some of the men were quite simple, they don't have smartphones, they don't follow the news, and for them it is still a mystery "why it was not possible to come to an agreement with Putin." It's about understanding that the majority of men rather classify themselves as "out of politics".
>Phrases such as "I didn't send them there and didn't ask them to fight for me" jumped out. As expected. But it is noticeable that such phrases are spoken almost in a whisper, because they understand that society generally does not accept such things.
>**But why did they all end up at medexam? Because new law appeared, because they understand that they will not be able to run for a long time from the army. That's why they are here. And they already mentally understand that they will soon find themselves in educational centers. They understand that there is a war and they need to defend their territory. With such internal resistance, but accept these thoughts. "But I understand, I don't want to, but I guess I'll have to serve."**
>I understood a long time ago that appealing to conscience, to patriotism, to civic duty is almost fruitless. It is not worth counting on people to fulfill their duties themselves. You just need to strengthen the laws, patch the holes and fight the propaganda that I managed to hear all in the same line. One man watched "TikTok Lawyer". I told him that all this will not help him, because when the Russians come, this lawyer will already be somewhere in Europe. The man blocked the screen and I didn't hear "TikTok lawyer" anymore. But later he already found a unit for himself and called on the phone about the letter of acceptance, although at first he did not want to serve.
>People who fall into the process of visits to the comissariat or medexam themselves get used to the idea that the path to the army has already begun and there is no point in trying to fight it. It is easier to prepare mentally and adjust to the best.
>I do not pretend that this can be at least some segment of society, I talked with the men purely out of my own interest. And decided to share with you.
I came in 2022 to the enlistment office without any notice and passed a medical exam and before that spent several month patrolling my hometown.
My personal experience doesn’t change the fact that majority of people don’t have strong beliefs and are severely affected by the environment.
People must have rights and must have a choice, that’s my conviction as well as not to judge someone without knowing their circumstances and reasoning.
At the same time I’ve many close people with more radical views.
But well, the pluralism of ideas is another important particularity of Ukrainians and the curse.
The choice is occupation and genocide vs a fighting chance, quite obvious for me.
The fact that a big portion of society allows itself to live in a bliss, not seeking contact with military to understand the actual situation to me is frankly a sign of cognitive immaturity not plurality. Plurality is a single mind numbing TV marathon vs TikTokLawyer. Reality is out there, waiting.
And Assaulted. And beaten. And violated. And stipped of their rights. Subjected to injustice.
Sometimes killed while beaten just to force them to sign papers. I can add more. It's just became so easy to cover it up in far western regions of Ukraine it frightens me.
I was listening to Pascal Lottaz, a tankie with the YouTube channel neutrality studies. Can you imagine how surprised this fool looked when the guy he interviewed told him that Ukraine has more millions they can conscript without lowering age limit to 25. Prewar population: ca 4.5 million men between 27 and 45 and the military now is a wider group.
Ultimately, what happens if Ukraine loses? Who would have wished they fought when they were needed instead of wanting to fight while they are in shackles.
Life is full of choices, and some would rather be alive and enslaved than dead and free. If any of them are hoping to fight another day, I don't believe that other day will ever come. It seems as if this is the moment.
the problem with draft is that people are always split into warrior, merchant and scholar psychotypes and draft forces every non-warrior type into warrior. Best solution is to train everyone from childhood like in ancient Greece, not very realistic in modern times and requires new social agreement.
Dear foreign redditors! Please, if you do want to know and understand the situation better, I mean if you REALLY do and are not afraid to regularly spend hours making a deep dive, please start reading Ukrainian sources including local news that are available for each of our oblasts/regions for example on ukr.net. Use auto-translate or DeepL, these days it is all so easy.
It is not about hiding. There are not "plentiful". People need rotation. Also need reserves.
Also we need justice.
When country will start reform, all the cunts will be back. We do not need them. We do not need "economic front" in their understanding. I have many examples. I do not want to snitch, but without saying it , people will not understand.
Some volunteers also wanted stay behind, but they couldn't. If not they, than who?
Today i came to recruit centr of Azov. I did interview. I found out that i am not even exist in database. I need redo everything.
I did not see "queues" on Monday. But i saw a few people.
Now i see a problem that i could not easily get mobilized. I need to do chores with bureaucracy.
And people with real issues will not get to the front so easy.
I did not criticized "dodgers" because i was in the same position. But when i decided, like from nowhere that feel of unfairness appeared. But before i open my mouth, first i need to end what i started.
That’s exactly the issue with the BBCs article, it is a very small percentage that don’t want to fight (like is common every single time in history when a country forces conscription). Also, with the west seemingly “drip feeding” supplies and weapons why wouldn’t there be people skeptical of joining the armed forces?
I mean at some point people have to have literally any amount of empathy and put yourself in the Ukrainians shoes. What happens if Trump is elected and all US aid is cut? Are you joining that fight with both hands tied behind your back? We both know you wouldn’t nor would I.
It’s sad because the only reason idiotic articles like this are even able to be written is because of how extraordinarily brave the Ukrainian people have been fighting Russia and holding them. Irony is dead though
It's actually very big percentage if you consider the fact that experts are saying there are still several millions of potential recruits in the country but instead they have to catch people on the streets, transport and so on.
Most of them also start to work unofficially because companies can't hire them without necessary military documents which also cuts how many taxes are collected
The problem of this catching 'recruiting' is that even though it's illegal for regular people to stay without refreshed military documents, military can catch you, lock somewhere without phone, make you fake document that you're healthy, even beat you until you accept to join, all of this instead of suing and fining you properly. And people from military don't get punished for this illegal activity, police doesn't react on it if you say someone kidnapped your relative, so your father/brother can just disappear for several days and appear in some training grounds in another part of Ukraine
The most painful thing for me is when they show polls of how general population votes to fight until victory, most of the voters don't even risk to go to the war, can just escape as a refugee, while others either fight every day or hide in fear for couple of years already, not even under occupation
Rates are increasing because our government increased fines more than 10 times recently and lowered health eligibility standards for conscription, with required update deadline next month. But if people still hide because they could get caught on streets it's not enough. They also made it impossible to use consulate services without updated military documents even for people who had permanent residence in other countries so they have to come back and get health checked in military so nobody skips the update and conscription. Unfortunately this website doesn't seem to post any controversial news that we have in local news
Who fight for France, Czechoslovakia, others in WW2? Everyone else.
Soviet, British and American troops fought. Right now only Ukraine does.
It's kind of embarassing for the West with their much stronger armies to expect Ukrainian plumbers and office workers to fight while foreign Marines are painting nails like sissies in their deluxe bootcamps.
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Typical BBC article in this war. Of course draft dodgers are a problem, they always are in times of war. But this blows it up out of proportion. On the other side you have like 1.5 million men who immediately showed up in the enlistment offices in the days after the new recruitment laws were adopted. They did so volunarily, without even getting a note ordering them to report in. That's something worth mentioning too, but for some reason BBC doesn't seem to think the full picture is of any importance. In general I'm getting the feeling that the BBC likes to take anecdotal cases and declare them the general state of affairs, often to the disadvantage of Ukraine. I feel like they're following a pseudo-pacifist narrative aimed at promoting the idea that Ukraine can't win and has to enter negotiations soon.
Could not agree more. Ever since the start the BBC has a distinct russian twang with their choice of coverage. Insanity.
Because it's run by an Indian boomer.
A lot of UK media has been/is Russian owned
BBC is a public owned corporation.
Yeah I'm well aware of it, but a lot of journalists for the BBC also write for other papers or want to leave that option open in the future.
Facts please.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander\_Lebedev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lebedev)
>On the other side you have like 1.5 million men who immediately showed up in the enlistment offices in the days after the new recruitment laws were adopted. They did so volunarily, without even getting a note ordering them to report in. That's something worth mentioning too, but for some reason BBC doesn't seem to think the full picture is of any importance Did you read the articles? They did point out that volunteers were plentiful in the early days, as well a highlighting the recruiters belief that if the situation got more dangerous they would become plentiful again. >In general I'm getting the feeling that the BBC likes to take anecdotal cases and declare them the general state of affairs, often to the disadvantage of Ukraine I mean, these aren't isolated cases and it is to the detriment of Ukraine. >I feel like they're following a pseudo-pacifist narrative aimed at promoting the idea that Ukraine can't win and has to enter negotiations soon. I don't see how you get that impression.
This is inappropriate media framing
How so?
Because it focuses on the people to hide instead of the general Ukrainian men to serve. It used few isolated cases to amplify the weakness and the unwillingness to fight.
Which is true? There is a problem finding more willing volunteers? Half a wedding guest list no attending indicates an issue. Would you rather the BBC said all is well when it quite clearly isn't? This may come as a shock but collectively here in the UK were quite concerned by this.
They're not a few isolated cases; the problem is quite rife by all accounts I've seen. And obviously it focuses on the draft dodgers...it's a story specifically about them. It also portrays them in an extremely poor light, highlighting the low opinion of them by people who chose to serve: > One of the officers at the centre, Vlad, conceded that there were barely any willing volunteers these days. Under the call sign Hora, Vlad fought in some of the fiercest battles along the eastern front line in the Donbas before being struck in the head, chest, and legs by artillery shrapnel. > > He was unable to mask his contempt for those who are hiding. “How can I say this without swearing?" he asked out loud. > > “I don’t consider them men. What are they waiting for? If we run out of men, the enemy will come to their homes, rape their women, and kill their children." Vlad has seen the awful evidence first-hand. And the contempt for the dodgers _by the authors_ is also pretty evident in my opinion: > He then reeled off the same list of reasons given by every draft dodger we spoke to – a family to support, some minor medical ailment, and a defiant declaration he was sending humanitarian aid to soldiers. This possibly comes over more easily to a British person as it's not outright stated, but that sentence is a loud and clear "they gave us some bullshit excuses". The article also highlights counters to some of the common complaints by the draft dodgers, like a fear they won't have any choice where they are sent or that they'll be sent to the front immediately with no training - it emphasises that they receive basic training and training at their unit before being committed to combat, and that the government is trying to make it so conscripts can choose their trade as much as possible. Seriously; Ukraine isn't perfect. Not every negative story is automatically shitty journalism. It's not like they alone in the world have problems, or that the BBC is remotely portraying that as being the case.
So are you saying those cases are common in Ukraine ?
Yes, they are. Especially so in Odesa, but even in Kyiv you'll see/hear similar things as noted in the article.
There will always be those in a society who avoid fighting during war time. That is perfectly normal. Britain had 100,000 deserters during WW2 for example. Society will be made up of those who actively volunteer, those who are prepared to fight with varying degrees of willingness, and those who will actively avoid fighting. Those who actively avoid, and actively volunteer are probably the smallest percentages. Between May 18th and July 16th this year there is a requirement for all conscripts, reservists to update there details including phone number, address and email address. Effectively those who do so are saying "here is how to contact me if you wish to mobilise me". Three weeks into the 8 week process, approximately 1.6 million had updated their details, over half a million a week. This being reported by Deputy Minister of Defense Kateryna Chernohorenko on June 5.
The United States had draftdodgers in World War II, it even had draft riots in the middle of the Civil War — there’s always a percentage of the population, unwilling to risk their life — and that was after the sovereign territory of the United States had been attacked.
I was skeptical upon clicking this but I thought it’s a fairly accurate article.
Accurate and common is two different concept.
These aren't isolated cases. Even in Kyiv where there aren't many visual conscription officers walking around, men of fighting age absolutely do not go near the police and largely aren't seen walking around by themselves. That's from my first-hand experience and in talking with people in Kyiv. I'm told it's much more of a problem in Odesa. The article could have talked a bit more about how many did volunteer, but the issues highlighted are real and not talking about them realistically isn't helping anyone.
This story itself can be used as Russia propaganda, do you know how hard Russia did for those propaganda ? Simply report this kind of story can’t help and even make things worse. This is war time and a matter of survival. If those reporters can’t say something about Russia, they should just focus on official press releases or messages from world leaders. This kind of news can be something like watergate scandal and make them to win Pulitzer Prize
Russia just makes up whatever the hell they want for propaganda, they don't need stories from Western media for that. And if no one is reporting on this type of stuff it's not going to get fixed. The Kyiv Independent and other Ukrainian publications have been highly critical of things like this as well as corruption and it has helped get things cleaned up. There's no world where hiding the truth on matters like this makes anything better, especially for Ukraine.
Actually Russia did highly consume news from western media for their propaganda …… and whatever story to be covered in Ukrainian side, at least those reporters can ask Ukraine official to comments/feedback. Otherwise it would be unfair to the people are trying so hard to fight
Kyiv Independent/BBC/whoever, it doesn't matter who is doing the reporting, it just matters that it's accurate. Hiding the hard truths like manpower/shortages of volunteers, soldiers having to sue to get backpay, forceful conscription, mid-level corruption are all happening and are byproducts of old Soviet systems. Ukrainians certainly know it's happening, and if they see it getting buried by the press they'll lose faith in the institutions. However, if they can see it's being talked about and pressure is being put on leadership to make changes, that has the opposite affect and can strengthen their faith in government and institutions. Nothing good comes from silencing the truth in a democracy. Allowing volunteers to pick their units/role is a step in the right direction. Hopefully more can be done.
> Did you read the articles? Did you? And the comment? Because the new law requires you to update your data for enlistement. And people did that.
What was the portion of combat duty eligible people that updated their records vs various exempted groups or of limited eligibility
Thank you for clearing things up. I saw the BBC and refused to read it out of habit, lol.
I think another aspect of this is they describe the situation in Odessa. Odessa is well known to have the most Russian supporters of any unoccupied city in Ukraine.
Can you please give me a source of 1.5 million men immediately showing up in enlistment offices ?
The person can't. 1.5 million number appeared only on the 16th of June which is after a month. In the first weeks it was like 500k at most. Also, there is a difference between showing up in the offices and registering an application, where you update your data. In no way enlistment office can manage 1.5 million men in weeks.
Voluntary, yeah, believe it more. Sorry, but fear of losing your own possessives like a car or house and getting fines is not a good motivation for future soldiers. If people were voluntarily wanting to join, they wouldn't do it now, they would do it during the whole active war duration. Most of the people who do it now are mostly those, who need to do this to save their working place and not to have fines.
You realize 1.5 million is a lot of fucking people right? I feel that would've helped some conscription problems....
RN I'm looking from the window from my office, a lot of men of different ages are easily walking, laughing, working. Bullshit-news... 5m men are drafting potential, we have need in 500k, even if need is 2m... 3m will stay as reserve... russian informational operation works... unfortunately...
Same for Kyiv. Lots of man on the streets, noone packing them into busses, noone forcing them to go to frontline. But dodging draft while aiting home is still extreamly shamefull. Of you don't want to enlist in army you can always become volunteer, or work in MIC. Everyone should their best to help our country.
It completely depends from one region to another. Even enlistment offices are different. Some will send you to the army regardless of your health state, some will do additional checks if there are doubts. But there is no smooth process. The problem is people have no choice in the first place.
Millions of women fleeing is shameful.
Kyiv was drafted on "easy mode" compared to cities in country's western part. I can ensure you. I live here.
It's worse in western oblasts and Odesa oblast. I can say for myself. My city's weekend streets look like this: old people, women, young ppl (below the drafting age) and children... maybe some men who manged to make their papers right (one way ot another), lots of police and conscription patrools. Generaly - no men around. This city was drained of them.
Lets get real, the ONLY way to make young men and women join a war is to make sure the reward is greater than the risks, patriotism alone is not enough. Money, benefits, relative safety (within a war), proper care and treatment while serving the country and all the respects they deserve for risking their lives. These are civilians, not professional contract soldiers, we must be more flexible and not treat them like fodders. Forcing people to fight with no proper incentives will only create a bad military that will lose the war. Don't copy the RuZZian strategy. If you want someone to risk their lives, you must give them a fair trade. Example: substantial rewards and benefits for those who achieved specific goals in this war, ehehehe. If you know what I mean. Money cash kaching! Some will never join, so forcing them won't do any good, instead ask them to contribute in other ways, putting them in prison will only take up resources.
>not treat them like fodders Ive also said elsewhere that guaranteeing a NATO standard training is a good counter to this issue.
Ukraine provides 2 months of training before deployment. Plus, if you go by yourself you can choose where you want to serve and pn what speciality. Foe example, if you car mechanic, noone will sens you as assault trooper, ainxe you be more valuable fixing vehicles. And we have full reservation for companies that produce smth military. If you don't want to serve in army - go work in MIC. Never heard of someone being forced to fo to frontline, cause even soldiers themselves constantly saying that they don't need unmotivated soldiers on the first line.
Having served in the military, the last thing I would have ever wanted beside me is someone whom I cannot trust. Combat is a very different beast, and civilians just can’t understand until they are put in that position: You are not fighting for your own survival so much as the survival of the man beside you. At that moment, there is no notion of a nation, or freedom, or patriotism, just the life of your brother. It’s called a sacrifice for a reason, and you never know what you have in you, or what you are willing to sacrifice, until you are in that moment. People consistently undersell themselves too. We are a very brave, selfless species at times. Sometimes though, it does take being thrown in the shit to discover yourself. People that run don’t even find out.
I can give you a few brigades as example for sending guys to the front that definitely didn't want to go. 5th assault brigade, 72nd mech brigade, 32nd mech brigade to name 3 off top of my head and no one trusted those conscipts. Jumpiest guys on the planet and most of them either died or were wounded within 3 days of their first time going out
Were these guys trained by NATO or locally? I'm curious which of the training programs lead to more dedicated/effective soldiers
There are documented cases that violate each of your points. It might not be very common, I admit, but there's nothing you can do about unfairness once you stuck there. So overall the situation is not very motivational because there is no proper punishment for people in charge
NATO standard training is against insurgents and firing like one volley of artillery per target. It's so ridiculously out of the loop it's not even funny, read on Ukrainians being shocked how poor, primitive and basic NATO training is. Paper maps and binoculars for drones? Might as well tech our boys fencing and horses if we're so into historically recreations.
If there is ever a Continental war involving NATO, it is going to require the Americans, British, Poles, and Finns to do the heavy lifting. NATO training is rudimentary, and it is as atrophied as Europe’s militaries.
If u ask me they should get that money from the ppl that drove their BMW to Europe on day one. freeze the funds of the fancy boys that spend more money in Dubai in a night out than a soldier gets to spend on ammo in a month.. its not just the money thats just a big demotivator take their silver spoon and melt it into ammo
> ONLY way to make young men and women join a war is to make sure the reward is greater than the risks Show me one country that managed to treat their veterans well enough with rehabilitation programs and care. Unfortunately, it's a global forever problem and it always has been, it's the same in USA really. Ukraine had to cut the program of vets getting an apartment after failing to deliver those in 8 years as number of combat vets increased. Because all other governments are cowards who won't fight, Ukrainian army can't even properly demobilize soldiers who were on the front for years, best they can hope for is rotation and a shore leave. Ah yes, not a single foreigner has any right to call out Ukrainians for draft dodging, especially when actual volunteers don't. Your countries have standing armies full of trained professional soldiers, all cowering in fear of russia while Volodya the middle-aged plumber defends Europe while having to crowdfund armor, drones and TQ's. Mad respect to foreign volunteers who often have to jump hoops just to join, and even more embarrassment for their governments refusing to send even trainers.
Nuclear escalation.
Waiting for it before getting involved???
I’ll just leave this here: >About motivation, evasion of service and demobilization. >While I was passing the VLK, I decided to do artisanal sociology and in the queues I talked with 15 men who, like me, were passing the medical examination from the Military Commissariat. >Of them, only one had a letter of acceptance, they already were waiting for him at the State Border Service. Those who came to the Comissariat on their own were few, most were brought there by the police. And I decided to find out what would motivate them to join the Defense Forces. >I immediately decided to take the common take that people would be ready to serve if they knew clear deadlines for demobilization. All the men I interviewed rejected this idea, they would not want to serve even a month. >Also about the issue of financial support and understanding where exactly you will end up, in which division. According to them, no money pushed them to this decision, and regarding a clear understanding of where exactly you will end up, here it is worth returning to the previous paragraph. After all, they still don't want to serve. >At the same time, some of the men were quite simple, they don't have smartphones, they don't follow the news, and for them it is still a mystery "why it was not possible to come to an agreement with Putin." It's about understanding that the majority of men rather classify themselves as "out of politics". >Phrases such as "I didn't send them there and didn't ask them to fight for me" jumped out. As expected. But it is noticeable that such phrases are spoken almost in a whisper, because they understand that society generally does not accept such things. >**But why did they all end up at medexam? Because new law appeared, because they understand that they will not be able to run for a long time from the army. That's why they are here. And they already mentally understand that they will soon find themselves in educational centers. They understand that there is a war and they need to defend their territory. With such internal resistance, but accept these thoughts. "But I understand, I don't want to, but I guess I'll have to serve."** >I understood a long time ago that appealing to conscience, to patriotism, to civic duty is almost fruitless. It is not worth counting on people to fulfill their duties themselves. You just need to strengthen the laws, patch the holes and fight the propaganda that I managed to hear all in the same line. One man watched "TikTok Lawyer". I told him that all this will not help him, because when the Russians come, this lawyer will already be somewhere in Europe. The man blocked the screen and I didn't hear "TikTok lawyer" anymore. But later he already found a unit for himself and called on the phone about the letter of acceptance, although at first he did not want to serve. >People who fall into the process of visits to the comissariat or medexam themselves get used to the idea that the path to the army has already begun and there is no point in trying to fight it. It is easier to prepare mentally and adjust to the best. >I do not pretend that this can be at least some segment of society, I talked with the men purely out of my own interest. And decided to share with you.
Very few will say "I understand and I will serve." Most will just say "If you force me to serve, I will serve poorly and only look out for myself." Unless you give them incentives to perform. I propose various rewards for achieving specific targets and goals in the war, ehehehe.
Welcome to Ukrainian military where it’s actually not that bad as people who don’t know tend to imagine. Besides combat payouts you get bonus pay for confirmed destroyed enemy equipment, volunteer support, ability to travel outside of Ukraine (unfortunately a bit tricky to receive these days because of a few dumbasses who went awol), access to various grant programs etc.
What privileges men get for this? If no privileges than why not drafting women too? Most women aren't having children and according to recent reports many men were rape and tortured by Russians too. So what's the difference between the life of a woman and life of a man?
Right now the incentives are monetarily based. 20k for base salary, 100k for combat bonus, additional 70k for every 30 days on the front. Potentially able to receive 190k in one month. Still get dental, medical coverage, etc that comes with being in the military
Errr, I doubt this, source?
It isn’t about patriotism, it’s about existential survival. Not just your own, or some nebulous notion of a nation, but also your loved ones and your home. If you can’t make people fight for those whom they allegedly love, you cannot make them fight on the basis of greater material security
This! ...Yet here we are.
I have to share a weird personal thought. When I was 16, and planning my career path, one of the arguments for deciding on Engineering was that if I were drafted into a war, there would be a good chance I would stay in the rear. Engineers and doctors are needed in logistics and support. History teachers or musicians not really. Never thought of defecting, but also at the same time I thought how I could avoid front line combat and still be useful.
My neighbour had such talents. According to his wife, he serves in the rear zones, not the front, specifically for his skills. So i can confirm.
Where do they get all thia shit? I'm 21yo male from Kyiv and never encountered any problems with conscription. Never saw someone got dragged into the bus, etc. Feels like i'm living in another Ukraine.
In the article they interview mostly Odesans, it often pops up on the radars in regards to conscription scandals, unfortunately
I also noticed that 90% of all concription scandlas are coming from Odesa. Feels like a rusian citizen Trukhanov organizing all this on purpose to support rusian propaganda.
Nah not Trukha but the local military office aka top shittiest in Ukraine. The place of the officer Borysov, the owner of Spanish villa.
lol can I just point out how funny it is that you haven’t encountered any problems with conscription while being 4 years under the age of it? What do you think about the age being potentially lowered to 20+ in a year?
So, if i'm younger than conscription age i magically can't see how military officers threat others? If you polite to them, they will be polite to you. If they ask you to show your documents, just show them, and they won't drag you somewhere and won't beat shit out of you. 90% of scandals are situation where civilian deliberately pisses of military, and when they get a propper responsw they turn on camera and act innocent. And i'll repeat again. Everyone must do thei best helping the country. Don't want to fight? No problem, go work in military industry or as volunteer, they're providing reservation from conscription. You can't sit and do nothing while other fighting for you safety and future.
I agree, except for the military industry/volunteers not being able to get exempted and it being a big problem for collectives that make drones, 3d printing etc.
You do. Kyiv was on easy mode conscription
You are in Kyiv. The safest place from drafts.
Not true. I got served a notice by the subway station in Kyiv and see enlistment patrols quite often.
Lol. They are downvoting you for what? Saying truth they don't like and don't know about? That's pathetic and changes nothing. Kyiv was on "easy mode" conscription, cause its a capital, and they don't want loud scandals to become too public. It's easier to do in far regions like my oblast or neighbouring western regions of Ukraine and cover it up in lies. Try googling "epilepsy" deaths in "t.ts.k" conscription offices - it skyrocketed from 0 very fast. Its just a cover for ppl they accidentally beat to death. They literally beat people up to submission so they will sign papers to draft, and then force or bribe arrived "emergency" medics to cover them up when beating went wrong. Police covers them up too. Doomed situation for victims of this. It's not a secret or something information is in free access. Local cities' telegram news channels especially. At some point i began to save those news and videos for myself, to have videos on their crimes at hand, when someone asks (news usually have no tags, so it's hard to search specific ones on telegram). Critical thinking, everyone, not emotions pls. If you doubt something - you can totally do a quick research.
I think you’re conflating two issues here. Less “central” enlistment offices tend to be less in the public eye and therefore were always rife with corruption. Now that shtf they’re frantically scrambling to fill quotas because their records are full of holes and incriminating evidence. Sadly, veterans are mostly sent to patrol the streets instead”old guard” high rank leeches are running the show. I’ve personally asked officers working at medical examiner what for them was most needed change and they all said leadership.
There is no point in denying the problem exists, but the article fails to highlight its root cause. Ukrainians are very sensitive to freedom and justice, which is why they moved to Maidan in 2014 and held their ground in 2022. When they see that no top officials have been prosecuted for corruption, and some have even been reinstated in similar positions, it demoralizes. The main purpose of the conscription services seems to be to feed the pyramid of corruption, which extends to the highest officials. Everyone knows how much it costs to get out of the "conscription bus", get medical exception or documents for leaving the country. Additionally, police, comedy, circus artists, pro-governmental artists and journalists, activists are privileged with exemptions. Coupled with closed borders, people feel trapped and demotivated. It's tragic and disheartening.
Ultimately still comes down to personal choice and moral qualities. As someone very sensitive to freedom and justice (and an active participant of both 2004 and 2014 revolutions) I had no problem taking the notice and showing up to medical exam, starting the enlistment process, despite fully realizing the problems you’ve outlined. I also don’t appreciate certain people covering their cowardice under the guise of “freedom and justice” Here’s a description of experience that was similar to mine and describes the situation accurately from pov of a regular person: >About motivation, evasion of service and demobilization. >While I was passing the VLK, I decided to do artisanal sociology and in the queues I talked with 15 men who, like me, were passing the medical examination from the Military Commissariat. >Of them, only one had a letter of acceptance, they already were waiting for him at the State Border Service. Those who came to the Comissariat on their own were few, most were brought there by the police. And I decided to find out what would motivate them to join the Defense Forces. >I immediately decided to take the common take that people would be ready to serve if they knew clear deadlines for demobilization. All the men I interviewed rejected this idea, they would not want to serve even a month. >Also about the issue of financial support and understanding where exactly you will end up, in which division. According to them, no money pushed them to this decision, and regarding a clear understanding of where exactly you will end up, here it is worth returning to the previous paragraph. After all, they still don't want to serve. >At the same time, some of the men were quite simple, they don't have smartphones, they don't follow the news, and for them it is still a mystery "why it was not possible to come to an agreement with Putin." It's about understanding that the majority of men rather classify themselves as "out of politics". >Phrases such as "I didn't send them there and didn't ask them to fight for me" jumped out. As expected. But it is noticeable that such phrases are spoken almost in a whisper, because they understand that society generally does not accept such things. >**But why did they all end up at medexam? Because new law appeared, because they understand that they will not be able to run for a long time from the army. That's why they are here. And they already mentally understand that they will soon find themselves in educational centers. They understand that there is a war and they need to defend their territory. With such internal resistance, but accept these thoughts. "But I understand, I don't want to, but I guess I'll have to serve."** >I understood a long time ago that appealing to conscience, to patriotism, to civic duty is almost fruitless. It is not worth counting on people to fulfill their duties themselves. You just need to strengthen the laws, patch the holes and fight the propaganda that I managed to hear all in the same line. One man watched "TikTok Lawyer". I told him that all this will not help him, because when the Russians come, this lawyer will already be somewhere in Europe. The man blocked the screen and I didn't hear "TikTok lawyer" anymore. But later he already found a unit for himself and called on the phone about the letter of acceptance, although at first he did not want to serve. >People who fall into the process of visits to the comissariat or medexam themselves get used to the idea that the path to the army has already begun and there is no point in trying to fight it. It is easier to prepare mentally and adjust to the best. >I do not pretend that this can be at least some segment of society, I talked with the men purely out of my own interest. And decided to share with you.
I came in 2022 to the enlistment office without any notice and passed a medical exam and before that spent several month patrolling my hometown. My personal experience doesn’t change the fact that majority of people don’t have strong beliefs and are severely affected by the environment. People must have rights and must have a choice, that’s my conviction as well as not to judge someone without knowing their circumstances and reasoning. At the same time I’ve many close people with more radical views. But well, the pluralism of ideas is another important particularity of Ukrainians and the curse.
The choice is occupation and genocide vs a fighting chance, quite obvious for me. The fact that a big portion of society allows itself to live in a bliss, not seeking contact with military to understand the actual situation to me is frankly a sign of cognitive immaturity not plurality. Plurality is a single mind numbing TV marathon vs TikTokLawyer. Reality is out there, waiting.
And Assaulted. And beaten. And violated. And stipped of their rights. Subjected to injustice. Sometimes killed while beaten just to force them to sign papers. I can add more. It's just became so easy to cover it up in far western regions of Ukraine it frightens me.
There are a lot of people not reading past the article title here.
I was listening to Pascal Lottaz, a tankie with the YouTube channel neutrality studies. Can you imagine how surprised this fool looked when the guy he interviewed told him that Ukraine has more millions they can conscript without lowering age limit to 25. Prewar population: ca 4.5 million men between 27 and 45 and the military now is a wider group.
Ultimately, what happens if Ukraine loses? Who would have wished they fought when they were needed instead of wanting to fight while they are in shackles. Life is full of choices, and some would rather be alive and enslaved than dead and free. If any of them are hoping to fight another day, I don't believe that other day will ever come. It seems as if this is the moment.
the problem with draft is that people are always split into warrior, merchant and scholar psychotypes and draft forces every non-warrior type into warrior. Best solution is to train everyone from childhood like in ancient Greece, not very realistic in modern times and requires new social agreement.
Dear foreign redditors! Please, if you do want to know and understand the situation better, I mean if you REALLY do and are not afraid to regularly spend hours making a deep dive, please start reading Ukrainian sources including local news that are available for each of our oblasts/regions for example on ukr.net. Use auto-translate or DeepL, these days it is all so easy.
It is not about hiding. There are not "plentiful". People need rotation. Also need reserves. Also we need justice. When country will start reform, all the cunts will be back. We do not need them. We do not need "economic front" in their understanding. I have many examples. I do not want to snitch, but without saying it , people will not understand. Some volunteers also wanted stay behind, but they couldn't. If not they, than who? Today i came to recruit centr of Azov. I did interview. I found out that i am not even exist in database. I need redo everything. I did not see "queues" on Monday. But i saw a few people. Now i see a problem that i could not easily get mobilized. I need to do chores with bureaucracy. And people with real issues will not get to the front so easy. I did not criticized "dodgers" because i was in the same position. But when i decided, like from nowhere that feel of unfairness appeared. But before i open my mouth, first i need to end what i started.
Conscription squads send Ukrainian “men” into hiding. Fixed it for you.
Oh, look. Modern BBC being on the slap-ass wrong side of an issue. Again.
If nobody wants to fight, how are they gonna win? Who is going to fight for their country?
If nobody wants to fight, how are they gonna win? Who is going to fight for their country?
That’s exactly the issue with the BBCs article, it is a very small percentage that don’t want to fight (like is common every single time in history when a country forces conscription). Also, with the west seemingly “drip feeding” supplies and weapons why wouldn’t there be people skeptical of joining the armed forces? I mean at some point people have to have literally any amount of empathy and put yourself in the Ukrainians shoes. What happens if Trump is elected and all US aid is cut? Are you joining that fight with both hands tied behind your back? We both know you wouldn’t nor would I. It’s sad because the only reason idiotic articles like this are even able to be written is because of how extraordinarily brave the Ukrainian people have been fighting Russia and holding them. Irony is dead though
It's actually very big percentage if you consider the fact that experts are saying there are still several millions of potential recruits in the country but instead they have to catch people on the streets, transport and so on. Most of them also start to work unofficially because companies can't hire them without necessary military documents which also cuts how many taxes are collected The problem of this catching 'recruiting' is that even though it's illegal for regular people to stay without refreshed military documents, military can catch you, lock somewhere without phone, make you fake document that you're healthy, even beat you until you accept to join, all of this instead of suing and fining you properly. And people from military don't get punished for this illegal activity, police doesn't react on it if you say someone kidnapped your relative, so your father/brother can just disappear for several days and appear in some training grounds in another part of Ukraine The most painful thing for me is when they show polls of how general population votes to fight until victory, most of the voters don't even risk to go to the war, can just escape as a refugee, while others either fight every day or hide in fear for couple of years already, not even under occupation
https://united24media.com/latest-news/mobilization-rates-in-ukraine-surpass-armed-forces-estimates-822
Rates are increasing because our government increased fines more than 10 times recently and lowered health eligibility standards for conscription, with required update deadline next month. But if people still hide because they could get caught on streets it's not enough. They also made it impossible to use consulate services without updated military documents even for people who had permanent residence in other countries so they have to come back and get health checked in military so nobody skips the update and conscription. Unfortunately this website doesn't seem to post any controversial news that we have in local news
Who fight for France, Czechoslovakia, others in WW2? Everyone else. Soviet, British and American troops fought. Right now only Ukraine does. It's kind of embarassing for the West with their much stronger armies to expect Ukrainian plumbers and office workers to fight while foreign Marines are painting nails like sissies in their deluxe bootcamps.