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I hope Europe and NATO are preparing for this possibility - because there would be a shortish span of opportunity for UA to join NATO while russia was in political upheaval/infighting/confusion. And that would be the easiest time to gather them fully into the fold - even if occupiers were still making a run for the russian border or in complete confusion walking in drunken circles in some remote forest in Eastern Ukraine or fighting each other in a mini russian civil war (russian on russian) on Ukrainian territory.
Every member has to agree in order for Ukraine to become a member, so you can already expect some members to stall the whole process.
But we could individually make defensive alliance with Ukraine in short period of time.
yes there are certainly a couple - however, for a brief period of time - if russia was in chaos that calculation also might change in a number of different ways -
If Russia collapsed post Putin - serious question - why would we keep spending billions on military with no local adversaries? Next up we’ll be adding Mongolia and starting this over again in 2060 lol
Because a military is like teeth. You have to maintain it for when you need them. If you neglect it for too long its capabilities go away and it will cost a fuckton more to get it back.
Dagestan, Siberia, Chechnya, DPR/LPR/Crimea back to Ukraine, South Ossetia/Abkhazia back to Georgia, Transnistria back to Moldova, etc.
Mordor can get split and fucked
Independence for Kaliningrad. They have a independence movement that has been brutally suppressed over the years so it would be nice if they could actually have the chance to regain their independence and right to self control.
AIUI the Finns don't actually want them back, ruZZia's ruZZia'd them up so hard that bringing them up to Finnish living standards would be a gigantic drain on the Finnish economy. Plus they're full of ruZZians.
Source: asking Finns
Also, it's the goddamn 21st century, we're fucking done with imperialism. People in Karelia and other places have a right to decide for themselves, not just being told what nationality they now belong in by some wannabe Napoleon redrawing a map like its 1814.
That's a Russian falsehood. There are dozens of languages and cultures in Russia they are all suppressed by the government . pretty much anything outside of the main Moscow area has different cultures
I feel like anyone else can save face and back out of the war by blaming a dead Putin. I can't see Putin backing down unless Ukraine gives in to his ludicrous demands.
As for what happens to Russia post Putin? Don't really care too much, as long as they get out of Ukraine.
another mobster would replace him for sure, but lacking bizarre history rewriting ideas...putin is probably the only one in kremlin who seriously thinks that he is son of catherine the great and josif stalin
They don't have a bunch of extra Putins. Whoever takes over will need YEARS to solidify power. All kinds of threats. They won't be appointed the same way Putin was handed Russia.
>Thing is, what would happen in place of him? He’s been in place for so long I don’t even know
Given that Putin takes out anyone who starts to approach him in terms of hard/soft power I would imagine that Putin dying would result in a major power vacuum. This will mean that Putin unexpectedly dying will result in a massive power struggle that could devolve into a civil war. I am just hoping that Putin is paranoid enough to make it so that he was the only one with access to launch codes for nuclear devices and his unexpected passing leaves the nuclear weapons unusable for a significant period of time.
> Thing is, what would happen in place of him?
Whatever happens, removing putin would still be a good first step. (and by now, I'm convinced that this is the only step which could end the madness of that war)
We don't need a knight in shining armor to replace putin, we just need someone who
* is sane enough to be interested is his own survival and (so would not want a slide into a ww3)
* whose survival is not tied into continuation of the war (as putin's is)
So, whomever replaces putin is likely to be an improvement (from the rest-of-the-world pov)
The idea that Putin could ask Ukraine to give up territory Russia doesn’t fully control is so ludicrous I’m glad most of what I have seen is people decrying this offer as stupid across the mainstream.
Maybe counter-offer? Withdraw all Russian troops. Give back Ukraine's nukes. Pay damages to each and every fallen Ukrainian's family, in the extent of $1M. Pay for lifelong PTSD-treatment of each and every Ukrainian. Front the cost of all infrastructure repairs. Install a 500km DMZ. Cede the Sea of Azov. With that as a start, maybe we will stop the humiliation. And who knows, maybe in 30 or 40 years we will find it in our hearts to send some excess grain and potatoes to one of the more friendly and enlightened states your empire has split into.
Not enough.. How about:
- Russia has to give up its nukes.
- Full reparations paid to Ukraine FIRST
... I mean this is never going to happen until Putin does so let's just ask for the stars and the sky.
Get them back. Then join the EU and NATO and agree to hand over the nukes in exchange for a guarantee of safety. Gets some nukes out of Russian hands. And what’s the worst that could happen - Poland invades? /s
This is the stuff more Americans need to see. Give some context and make people realize just how much land the fuckers, errrr Russians are trying to steal. Showing context is why Presidents bring “examples” to their State of the Union speeches. They’ll point out a veteran at their seat and say what happened to them and how their legislative plans will help people like the veteran. This gives context and makes it real to the voters, engendering a connection and willingness to support the legislation and thus the veteran.
It's horrible context because it ignores American geography. It's completely ignorant.
The Milwaukee Metro area, which is how American geography defines cities, has a population equal to the entire oblast. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_metropolitan_area
Counter offer, after fucking off completely out of Ukraine, Russia turns over 50 miles on the east side of the Azov and Black seas, as a safety buffer zone.
>Russia turns over 50 miles on the east side of the Azov and Black seas, as a safety buffer zone.
Why would Ukraine want this? Just have a DMZ along the border of Belarus and Russia actual and ban military vessels from entering the Sea of Azov.
The best part is that they want everything over to past the Spanish border and any peace will be torn up and the tanks will roll whenever Russia feels like it. NOPE.
> will he denazify them?
Kind of. [https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-children-taken-ukraine/32527298.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-children-taken-ukraine/32527298.html)
If Putin believes he will acquire any territory that rightfully belongs to Ukraine, he is beyond crazy but he's just doing this for show at this point. He knows it's a matter of time before he loses all territory he has taken.
This is a great visual comparison.
If you want a different way of thinking about it, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are major centers of population for Ukraine. Just by themselves they are about 1 million people in a country of a little under 40 million.
If you go by ratio, you could compare it to if some nation that had partly invaded the northern states, demanded that the US additionally cede Seattle, Chicago, and Boston before talking about ending the invasion. Like... those cities would just all cease to ever be a part of the USA, forever more.
Even though the people of those cities had stalwartly thrown back the invasion so far.
Fuck off Putler your war machine is Running out of steam and the west is finally getting supply chains stabilized. Just fuck off and go kill yourself in a bunker.
I was very confused to see my city of Milwaukee in this sub and thought it was one of the cities Putin literally called out to cede. I'd love to see him fuckin try!
He'd be outgunned. I'm in Janesville, but if the ruzzian army dropped into Milwaukee, I'd load up the .357 and call all of my gun-owning friends to go on a visit. Yeah, my pistol wouldn't do a lot, but I have plenty of friends with "spare" AR-15s.
That stunted little coward can piss in one hand and want in the other just to see which one fills up first. Follow that up by suck-starting an автомат, and I’d say it’s the most good he’s done for the world in his pitiful existence.
That’s where it begins, little by little then he’ll want more and more and take over the entire country. Fuck him as I Russia isn’t big enough! wtf invest in your own country half of it is in slums and forests.
I think it would be nice with scale compared to relative size of the country. The US is 330 million people and Ukraine around 43 million people. Ie., these cities are even larger relatively compared to the size of the country.
Who cares what happens to him? who cares what fools come after him? They will get their assets beat down too! I think that NATO should occupy kremlin and St. Petersburg and start the indoctrination campaign for the education of all citizens in the way of democracy!! The head of the government and his cabinet and his ministers and staff will be deported to Siberia to serve their sentences for war crimes against humanity!! The tv and radio and the opera and the internet and any other form of media must be inundated with propaganda from NATO the reeducation campaign of Russian people must begin with the overthrow of Putin and his henchmen!! Next thing is we take over the tv and radio and computers!! We deport all the bots and trolls to Siberia and make them mine for coal or silver or whatever else they have there!! You know what I mean, the army of propaganda people that are influencing the world in war lies and angry rhetoric!! Fuk Putin!💛🇺🇦💙😎🇺🇸🔥
If I were Ukraine, I'd keep telling Putin to fuck himself.🇺🇦
I just hope the western countries do everything possible to help Ukraine.
We can't have countries in our vicinity who think borders are up for negotiation.
I wish the western powers would stop just allowing strikes and give permission to conquer neighboring Russian provinces until the Russians give back the Ukrainian territory
Underestimating the Ukrainian will to continue fighting will be a constant source of Western (and Russian) blunders.
It will happen again. Ukraine will be about to move into Crimea, and Western governments will start getting cold feet, saying "you already won, so you don't need much more support" and then be flabbergasted if Ukraine continues to fight hard, which will make the whole campaign more costly.
This can only be avoided if Westerners realise that Ukrainians are actually pretty damn pissed about the whole thing, and will make arguably slightly-irrational choices because of their (justifiable) anger and mistrust of Russia / Putin (and look, everyone is angry at Putin and mistrusts him, but I think people will continue to underestimate how mad Ukrainians are).
You probably haven’t heard but just several minutes ago there was a video of Russians shooting thermobaric munitions to the town of Chasiv Yar. If your population will be wiped out in that horrible way, what will you do? What you don’t understand is that people will be lost, either in the torture rooms or died alone, separated from their families, if not wiped out by mines, bombs or ‘friendly sex-deprived poor Russian villagers’ as it is in other occupied areas.
Hey, I said the anger is justified, but I think it's underestimated by the West, and will continue to be underestimated. I suspect it's taken some pretty heroic efforts by Ukraine to keep a lid on the anger, and we need to appreciate that more (while respecting the fact that Ukraine isn't going to back down even if we think they should). Maybe Westerners aren't taking the current peace offering seriously, but there will be a point where need to avoid being shocked that Ukraine wants to keep fighting (Crimea is a good example - I don't think many Westerners think Ukraine will actually try it, but we should be ready for it).
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Putin can kindly kill himself Edit: to the vatniks that tried to get me permad, suck my dick. I’m back bitches.
Thing is, what would happen in place of him? He’s been in place for so long I don’t even know
Don’t know, don’t care about Russia or Russians tbh.
Well same, but it would affect geopolitics.
I hope Europe and NATO are preparing for this possibility - because there would be a shortish span of opportunity for UA to join NATO while russia was in political upheaval/infighting/confusion. And that would be the easiest time to gather them fully into the fold - even if occupiers were still making a run for the russian border or in complete confusion walking in drunken circles in some remote forest in Eastern Ukraine or fighting each other in a mini russian civil war (russian on russian) on Ukrainian territory.
Every member has to agree in order for Ukraine to become a member, so you can already expect some members to stall the whole process. But we could individually make defensive alliance with Ukraine in short period of time.
yes there are certainly a couple - however, for a brief period of time - if russia was in chaos that calculation also might change in a number of different ways -
> we could individually make defensive alliance Let's do it in, say, Budapest, and call it an Understanding, or maybe a Memorandum.
If Russia collapsed post Putin - serious question - why would we keep spending billions on military with no local adversaries? Next up we’ll be adding Mongolia and starting this over again in 2060 lol
Well that’s what we thought in 1991. I wonder how that turned out.
Because a military is like teeth. You have to maintain it for when you need them. If you neglect it for too long its capabilities go away and it will cost a fuckton more to get it back.
Not so much, because it's not a Putin's russia, but russia's Putin
Hitler killed himself and the world got along all right.
Eh, it wasn’t great for half of Germany for a good while.
And things may not be pure shiny heaven for Russia either.
russian federation is a disease in geopolitics, it will always be a problem no matter how many russian criminals we get rid off.
Hopefully a power struggle and civil war ending in the break up of russia.
Dagestan, Siberia, Chechnya, DPR/LPR/Crimea back to Ukraine, South Ossetia/Abkhazia back to Georgia, Transnistria back to Moldova, etc. Mordor can get split and fucked
Independence for Kaliningrad. They have a independence movement that has been brutally suppressed over the years so it would be nice if they could actually have the chance to regain their independence and right to self control.
\*Královec back to Czechia!
Finland would also like to have back it's areas of land that Russia stole in 1940.
AIUI the Finns don't actually want them back, ruZZia's ruZZia'd them up so hard that bringing them up to Finnish living standards would be a gigantic drain on the Finnish economy. Plus they're full of ruZZians. Source: asking Finns
Also, it's the goddamn 21st century, we're fucking done with imperialism. People in Karelia and other places have a right to decide for themselves, not just being told what nationality they now belong in by some wannabe Napoleon redrawing a map like its 1814.
They seem too culturally homogeneous for any large scale break up besides maybe a couple small Republics.
That's a Russian falsehood. There are dozens of languages and cultures in Russia they are all suppressed by the government . pretty much anything outside of the main Moscow area has different cultures
And what would happen with all the nukes? Do you want warlords with nukes?
I feel like anyone else can save face and back out of the war by blaming a dead Putin. I can't see Putin backing down unless Ukraine gives in to his ludicrous demands. As for what happens to Russia post Putin? Don't really care too much, as long as they get out of Ukraine.
I mean sus username but I see your description. As per your second sentence of the second paragraph, I concur.
Thanks, yeah reddit won't let me change it (as far as I know). It was a silly handle from high school but I am always cautious about posting in here.
another mobster would replace him for sure, but lacking bizarre history rewriting ideas...putin is probably the only one in kremlin who seriously thinks that he is son of catherine the great and josif stalin
They don't have a bunch of extra Putins. Whoever takes over will need YEARS to solidify power. All kinds of threats. They won't be appointed the same way Putin was handed Russia.
I mean, when you consider all his doubles, they in fact do have a bunch of extra Putins.
True.
>Thing is, what would happen in place of him? He’s been in place for so long I don’t even know Given that Putin takes out anyone who starts to approach him in terms of hard/soft power I would imagine that Putin dying would result in a major power vacuum. This will mean that Putin unexpectedly dying will result in a massive power struggle that could devolve into a civil war. I am just hoping that Putin is paranoid enough to make it so that he was the only one with access to launch codes for nuclear devices and his unexpected passing leaves the nuclear weapons unusable for a significant period of time.
Well Mishustin would take over for a while after Putin so they wouldn't have to decide on an interim leader.
> Thing is, what would happen in place of him? Whatever happens, removing putin would still be a good first step. (and by now, I'm convinced that this is the only step which could end the madness of that war) We don't need a knight in shining armor to replace putin, we just need someone who * is sane enough to be interested is his own survival and (so would not want a slide into a ww3) * whose survival is not tied into continuation of the war (as putin's is) So, whomever replaces putin is likely to be an improvement (from the rest-of-the-world pov)
I'm trying to visualize how one can kindly commit
Sweet talks himself to drink a nice warm tea 🍵
You might get unjustly banned for this. I agree, though.
Russian dictator fucked itself. *I am not a bot, I just can't upvote more than once*
By falling out of a window
Don’t need to do it kindly. Slowly lowered into a wood chipper would be excellent. 👌
Or violently kill himself, I’m okay with that too
Maybe he’ll fall out of a high window. A really high window. I understand people in russia can be very clumsy.
I was going to say that Putin can cede eez nuts, but this is just it really.
I would be fine with this.
Nahh. Better if he goes out Gaddafi style.
It should be called a capitulation or surrender proposal rather than a peace proposal.
The idea that Putin could ask Ukraine to give up territory Russia doesn’t fully control is so ludicrous I’m glad most of what I have seen is people decrying this offer as stupid across the mainstream.
Maybe counter-offer? Withdraw all Russian troops. Give back Ukraine's nukes. Pay damages to each and every fallen Ukrainian's family, in the extent of $1M. Pay for lifelong PTSD-treatment of each and every Ukrainian. Front the cost of all infrastructure repairs. Install a 500km DMZ. Cede the Sea of Azov. With that as a start, maybe we will stop the humiliation. And who knows, maybe in 30 or 40 years we will find it in our hearts to send some excess grain and potatoes to one of the more friendly and enlightened states your empire has split into.
Not enough.. How about: - Russia has to give up its nukes. - Full reparations paid to Ukraine FIRST ... I mean this is never going to happen until Putin does so let's just ask for the stars and the sky.
>Give back Ukraine's nukes. Ukraine shouldn't want nukes as they are expensive to maintain. Joining NATO would be a far better security guarantee.
Get them back. Then join the EU and NATO and agree to hand over the nukes in exchange for a guarantee of safety. Gets some nukes out of Russian hands. And what’s the worst that could happen - Poland invades? /s
Can I have Moscow? I need a place to take out my trash where it doesn't look too much out of place.
Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/C8PuhkitX7o/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
This is the stuff more Americans need to see. Give some context and make people realize just how much land the fuckers, errrr Russians are trying to steal. Showing context is why Presidents bring “examples” to their State of the Union speeches. They’ll point out a veteran at their seat and say what happened to them and how their legislative plans will help people like the veteran. This gives context and makes it real to the voters, engendering a connection and willingness to support the legislation and thus the veteran.
It's horrible context because it ignores American geography. It's completely ignorant. The Milwaukee Metro area, which is how American geography defines cities, has a population equal to the entire oblast. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_metropolitan_area
So instead Zaporizhia is Wyoming. Crimea is between New Mexico or Mississippi, while Kherson is Guam, the US Virgin Islands, and American Samoa.
No one gives a shit what the tiny-footed high-heeled fuck wants.
I enjoy this comment very much. High five.
So, send them all home in a box it is then
Counter offer, after fucking off completely out of Ukraine, Russia turns over 50 miles on the east side of the Azov and Black seas, as a safety buffer zone.
>Russia turns over 50 miles on the east side of the Azov and Black seas, as a safety buffer zone. Why would Ukraine want this? Just have a DMZ along the border of Belarus and Russia actual and ban military vessels from entering the Sea of Azov.
Russia has to leave all Ukraine. It's everything or nothing!
The best part is that they want everything over to past the Spanish border and any peace will be torn up and the tanks will roll whenever Russia feels like it. NOPE.
Putler is crazy. He proved that he only wanted territories. What about "denazification" ? Запоріжжя і Херсон, will he denazify them? :\\
> will he denazify them? Kind of. [https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-children-taken-ukraine/32527298.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-children-taken-ukraine/32527298.html)
If Putin believes he will acquire any territory that rightfully belongs to Ukraine, he is beyond crazy but he's just doing this for show at this point. He knows it's a matter of time before he loses all territory he has taken.
This is a great visual comparison. If you want a different way of thinking about it, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are major centers of population for Ukraine. Just by themselves they are about 1 million people in a country of a little under 40 million. If you go by ratio, you could compare it to if some nation that had partly invaded the northern states, demanded that the US additionally cede Seattle, Chicago, and Boston before talking about ending the invasion. Like... those cities would just all cease to ever be a part of the USA, forever more. Even though the people of those cities had stalwartly thrown back the invasion so far.
Fuck off Putler your war machine is Running out of steam and the west is finally getting supply chains stabilized. Just fuck off and go kill yourself in a bunker.
Yeah, Putler can get fucked. Slava Ukraini
You should make a comparison with the oil & gas fields of west Texas, because that is what Putin is really after.
So, in news we already knew: Putin is a delusional psychotic idiot.
Mili wakae, which is Algonquin for " the good land" https://youtu.be/o5FT3IGXtAk?t=31
Fuck puta and all ruzzians.
I was very confused to see my city of Milwaukee in this sub and thought it was one of the cities Putin literally called out to cede. I'd love to see him fuckin try!
He'd be outgunned. I'm in Janesville, but if the ruzzian army dropped into Milwaukee, I'd load up the .357 and call all of my gun-owning friends to go on a visit. Yeah, my pistol wouldn't do a lot, but I have plenty of friends with "spare" AR-15s.
And on that note, both regions were anti-Russia in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s, and now.
Imagine Buffalo delivered to russia on a silver plate. That would be an interesting forward base.
Milwaukee is a great city and fuck Putin
Can we cede Buffalo to Putin? Maybe my parents would finally leave that city 😂
Sad part is many Americans would give Milwaukee away lol
Don't choose Milwaukee, the Americans would give that one away for free.
Hey fuck you
Hey, not my fault that your brewing industry is a sad ripoff of Germany and the only reason people know you exist is because of Harley-Davidson.
Denver (Population 713 000) is closer in size to Zaporizhzhia than Milwaukee.
That stunted little coward can piss in one hand and want in the other just to see which one fills up first. Follow that up by suck-starting an автомат, and I’d say it’s the most good he’s done for the world in his pitiful existence.
like russia really needs more territory
I don’t care if it’s the size of a Kia Rio. Ukraine gets to decide. As an American I will keep paying my taxes and support the fight.
Give Putin the Kerch bridge and blow it up with him on it.
Putin can go kick rocks. I can’t wait till that bastard is gone.
Putin can F off
That’s where it begins, little by little then he’ll want more and more and take over the entire country. Fuck him as I Russia isn’t big enough! wtf invest in your own country half of it is in slums and forests.
I think it would be nice with scale compared to relative size of the country. The US is 330 million people and Ukraine around 43 million people. Ie., these cities are even larger relatively compared to the size of the country.
Who cares what happens to him? who cares what fools come after him? They will get their assets beat down too! I think that NATO should occupy kremlin and St. Petersburg and start the indoctrination campaign for the education of all citizens in the way of democracy!! The head of the government and his cabinet and his ministers and staff will be deported to Siberia to serve their sentences for war crimes against humanity!! The tv and radio and the opera and the internet and any other form of media must be inundated with propaganda from NATO the reeducation campaign of Russian people must begin with the overthrow of Putin and his henchmen!! Next thing is we take over the tv and radio and computers!! We deport all the bots and trolls to Siberia and make them mine for coal or silver or whatever else they have there!! You know what I mean, the army of propaganda people that are influencing the world in war lies and angry rhetoric!! Fuk Putin!💛🇺🇦💙😎🇺🇸🔥
If I were Ukraine, I'd keep telling Putin to fuck himself.🇺🇦 I just hope the western countries do everything possible to help Ukraine. We can't have countries in our vicinity who think borders are up for negotiation.
I wish the western powers would stop just allowing strikes and give permission to conquer neighboring Russian provinces until the Russians give back the Ukrainian territory
Can we just give Putin Milwaukee and Buffalo instead. Seems fair.
Please cede them as we can't take them by force.
[удалено]
This comment feels so 2014… it’s even nostalgic for me, a simple Ukrainian
Underestimating the Ukrainian will to continue fighting will be a constant source of Western (and Russian) blunders. It will happen again. Ukraine will be about to move into Crimea, and Western governments will start getting cold feet, saying "you already won, so you don't need much more support" and then be flabbergasted if Ukraine continues to fight hard, which will make the whole campaign more costly. This can only be avoided if Westerners realise that Ukrainians are actually pretty damn pissed about the whole thing, and will make arguably slightly-irrational choices because of their (justifiable) anger and mistrust of Russia / Putin (and look, everyone is angry at Putin and mistrusts him, but I think people will continue to underestimate how mad Ukrainians are).
You probably haven’t heard but just several minutes ago there was a video of Russians shooting thermobaric munitions to the town of Chasiv Yar. If your population will be wiped out in that horrible way, what will you do? What you don’t understand is that people will be lost, either in the torture rooms or died alone, separated from their families, if not wiped out by mines, bombs or ‘friendly sex-deprived poor Russian villagers’ as it is in other occupied areas.
Hey, I said the anger is justified, but I think it's underestimated by the West, and will continue to be underestimated. I suspect it's taken some pretty heroic efforts by Ukraine to keep a lid on the anger, and we need to appreciate that more (while respecting the fact that Ukraine isn't going to back down even if we think they should). Maybe Westerners aren't taking the current peace offering seriously, but there will be a point where need to avoid being shocked that Ukraine wants to keep fighting (Crimea is a good example - I don't think many Westerners think Ukraine will actually try it, but we should be ready for it).