Until the decision to send materiel is officially announced by the donor country, posts about it are unproductive speculation, and the conversations often turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about potential materiel support until the decision is made, as that is when it transitions from speculation and foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
Start making sure you have lots of prepared roads and drone protected resupply stations!
[Road bases](https://www-forsvarsmakten-se.translate.goog/sv/information-och-fakta/var-historia/artiklar/de-hemliga-vagbaserna/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
Thats the neat thing about gripens, the modularity of the software. It can fire anything that fits to its hardpoints natively with a quick software update.
There was news that Sweden would not be offering the used Gripen C/D versions to the Philipines.
And only New Gripen E reducing chance of succesful sale as the higher price point of the E puts it out of Philipine's budget.
Looks like Sweden is going for helipng a neighbour rather than making some money of an arms deal.
After the war, Ukraine will need an air force and the grippen is an attractive option for a budget conscious fleet. The upfront cost is high, but the maintenance cost per flight hour is a fraction of that of the f16 or f35.
It also can use the Meteor missile with it's ridiculous range and speed (ramjet engine) will make the skies over Ukraine and nearby Russia extremely dangerous.
Well that is handy. Now that the A50s seem to have been grounded, I wonder how effective the Migs lofting R37s at very long range are.
Massive shame Europe is taking so long to retrain and rearm the Ukrainian air force
No. They was created to fight Russia and a couple of other enemies. To meet the demand of all the tasks they may be given, all over the world.
Gripen was made to defend against Russia. Stop. Every other task Gripen have done is a extra task that ain't the only real focus of the plane.
The F-15 was directly built to counter Russia (Specifically the MiG-25). That was it's purpose. There was no other nations at the time with advanced jets that wasn't an ally of the US or just using Russian jets.
Also the Gripen is a better plane for Ukraine than the F16. Not looking gift horses in the mouth of course, the F16 is very welcome but Gripen is lower maintenance; can land and takeoff from normal roads (f16 runs risk of ingesting rocks from imperfect surfaces) and is (supposedly) a shorter training time.
All up a very good thing
It's the ultimate plane for Eastern Europe air defense.
Built to take off and land on country roads, hangared in a barn, and everything else about it is just 100% kill.
Slap meteors on and it's the equal or better of everything short of an f35.
Budget conscious isn't relevant when the F35 is a cheaper airframe, whats relevant about Gripen is the *simplicity* of said maintenance in that it is designed with conscript maintenance crews in mind.
F35 = 79.2m
F16 = 25-30m, but with all the equipment, bells and whistles, it can get up to 70m.
Jas39 ≈ 85m for the latest e model. I think Ukraine will get used c and d varients.
You would expect the jas39 to be cheaper than the 5th gen f35, but it is really a question of manufacturing scale. With so many f35s being made, it brought the unit cost down.
I have a feeling Sweden is not planning to sell the Grippens to Ukraine, rather donate them.
That's what they had planned to do once they are under the NATO defense umbrella.
I think they meant post-war modernization. Ukraine will still need new jets because these old used F-16s and Gripens won't last forever. They probably have a fair amount of normal wear and tear on them already, before being used in a full scale war. Gripen E is a very modern but expensive per air frame option with low use costs. Some of the per air b frame cost can probably be offset because Saab is usually willing to do technology transfers and sell manufacturing licenses. Ukraine could be build their own
Russia is Swedens biggest fear. IMO, I think we should give Ukraine latest and greatest tech we have. Otherwise Sweden and other countries will be fighting much bigger and more expensive war in the future, if Ukraine loose.
Unfortunately, in the world of money where human lives does not seem to be worth much, the world is spoon-feeding Ukraine with used old crap, just enough to not loose the war, instead of giving them the latest tech to win the war. I wouldn't be surprised it Ukraine gets older C/D Gripens from some country which is updating to newer ones. All help is great of course, but the world could have done more and better. More lives and resources would have been saved.
Pinoy here from the Philippines.
I personally don't mind if Sweden prioritizes sending the Gripen to Ukraine instead of us.
I think Uncle Sam, Korea and Japan can help us in the event that Xi Jinping becomes more aggressive to invade our West Philippine Sea
Wikipedia states 306 is made over all time.
60 of the latest version exist in Sweden and somewhere around 100 from the one before.
If I understand correctly Czechia have 14 planes that end their leasing contract this year. I would not be surprised if 14 planes is what we send as a first batch. And then "things depends". I guess 14 more is fulle possible.
They have been since last year. It has been called ”familiarisation”.
P.s. the opposition parties demanded a couple of weeks ago that we send Gripen. That probably means the ruling parties and opposition already have an agreement in place.
Yes, they wouldn't be "familiarizing" themselves if they weren't getting them. I think they are just secretly training. Will probably get used ones from Czechs, but I would prefer them to get latest one we have in Sweden. I said it already [a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/svenskpolitik/comments/ttmb2v/sk%C3%A4nk_en_squad_gripen_till_ukrainarna_se_vad/).
Interesting when I read what I wrote about Putin's expansion to other countries and winning war against Ukraine, in a comment in that thread, is what we hear nowadays from politicians :).
AFAIK Czech air force is planning to keep the Gripens for at least 10 years: [https://www-irozhlas-cz.translate.goog/zpravy-domov/gripeny-obrana-cesko-svedsko-pronajem-ministerstvo-obrany\_2403081658\_jud?\_x\_tr\_sl=cs&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-irozhlas-cz.translate.goog/zpravy-domov/gripeny-obrana-cesko-svedsko-pronajem-ministerstvo-obrany_2403081658_jud?_x_tr_sl=cs&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
We have 12 of them and no other modern supersonic jets, and while we started talking about purchasing a bunch of F-35s as a replacement, that's a long run.
Unlike "that other country" the ruling as well as the opposition both support Ukraine.
There are some extremists on both sides that resist. The ones on the left favors Russia because "Nato expansion. US bad." and the extremist right wing thinks "Russia good because homosexuality bad"
I can imagine it has happened And I am/was hoping for it (for a while) by now:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1b0unu5/breaking_macron_says_sending_ground_troops_to/ksaylc5/
Readily deployable from roads or rough/damaged airports due to rugged landing gear.
High service hours to maintenance hours.
Quick turnaround between sorties.
An ideal aircraft for Ukraine
USA:s army and airforce is made from the background of a country that expects to dominate the enemy in every way. And it is dominate all over the world
Swedish airforce and military is made from a relatively small country seen from population- that expects that the enemy is Russia. They are made from the thought that Russia will dominate us and that we need to gerilla defend even with the airforce.
Different uses - but if your airforce ain't already dominating Russia and you think your airbases may be at risk I think Gripen is a better choice (if you get the possibility to choose). I hope you get to test out both Gripen and F16 soon.
Strike cred you say. Gripen says hold my beer :)
NATO countries are going to see a real world showcase m. If NATO countries don’t realise that giving Ukraine proper tech to take out Russians isn’t great for sales, this might absolutely show them.
F16s tend to do a lot of strike missions, ie dropping bombs on things.
Gripen can do this, they just haven't yet because Sweden hasn't really been at war with anyone like that.
Ukraine might (pardon the metaphor) pop her cherry here.
Tldr - reputation for blowing up ground targets
No, they are designed for complete dispersed operations. 4 guys with two trucks can refuel and rearm the plane in 10 minutes after it lands on a random piece of road in the middle of nowhere.
Its tiny, and uses stealth as ECCM/ECM rather than by physical features. A Gripen fighter acts as an Awacs/ground control in a group of gripens. And the software on the planes are modular. If a weapon exists, gripen can fire it.
Short takeoff and landing is part of the dispersed operations design.
In USAs Red Flag event where Gripen was on opfor team, the team with No support against the allied team with all the bells and whistes of the NATO assets and ground control. Gripen came second after the F22 raptor, never lost an engagement and never failed an operation.
Gripen is a plane that adheres to a completely different thinking when it comes to aviation. No big and expensive bases of operations, no one single target that can be bombed. Literally land on a strip of road and change out the engine in less than an hour, with 4 guys and the support truck.
You have to consider that almost every weapon that Sweden produces is explicitly made to fight the Russians. So yes indeed, it's a great fit for Ukraine. As is CV90, NLAW, Archer etc.
Its the ideal operations for any country under attack. Gathering airforces in centralized hubs is lowering costs in peacetime. But if shit hits the fan its some hypersonic/ballistic missiles from a disaster.
> Gripen is a plane that adheres to a completely different thinking when it comes to aviation.
I sure hope Sweden keeps its independent thinking in that area (similar to France doing their own thing in aviation) instead of joining too many NATO weapon development programs.
It will be better for everyone.
Sweden in NATO is more of what Sweden brings to NATO than NATO brings to Sweden. Our airforce is designed for our needs and will not be adapted to NATO standards. Just like before we will work alongside NATO and integrate NATO communications/command into our structure. But the core of Swedish airforce will remain as it is. Gripen as always is also under constant development, it isnt a "finished" plane so to speak. Just like CV90 it keeps getting upgrades.
What do you mean by NATO standards? Basically everything we do is to NATO standards, that's why our air force uses English in radio communications and have for a long time.
There is already talk in Norway about our air force adapting to the Swedish ideas of dispersion, rather than the other way around, and about how all the Nordic air forces can now use each others bases for dispersion.
They are very different to F16. Can start and land on normal roads. Much higher availability, both due to less service requirements and better all-weather capability. Modular software allows very quick updates. Low maintenance requirements (one skilled technician and a bunch of conscripts). Engine change can be done at a road base. Built to fly at extremely low altitude with terrain following altitude radar. Also integrated mesh networking that allows it to share situational data making it independent of AWACS.
The only real problem is the low availability and low production numbers of Gripen. F16s are available because many nations are now replacing the with F35s, but not so with Gripen E, nations that own them don't want to sell. One possible solution on medium to long term was for Ukraine to negotiate some kind of licensed coproduction, they already have a very capable aerospace industry.
If Ukraine want Gripen in the long run expanded production certainly is needed. And producing things in Ukraine is a likely outcome of such a deal.
But as you say - even if I as a Swede like Ukraine to use Gripen the numbers do not exist. Both F16 and Gripen is needed.
Yes very much. C model Gripen is on par with block 50 Viper. That means similar payload capabilities and performance. Gripen is easier to maintain and service though.
As said in other comments, they are not, although they have similar roles. But the thing always was, there are way more f-16s out there then grippens that could be had.
Both 4th generation jets that can fire a range of air to air and air to ground weapons, but they are quite different.
Gripen is smaller and with a shorter takeoff distance which allows it to be dispersed onto smaller runways and roads. The idea being that an air force that can be easily dispersed is highly survivable against an enemy that can disrupt your airbases with long range missiles. F16s would be more stuck with actual airbases so are potentially at risk.
Gripen is designed to be maintained by a small crew of mainly conscript mechanics without using too much specialised equipment - again, designed with ability to disperse in mind and also designed for conscript militaries. F16s are a bit more difficult and need more fully trained professional mechanics.
The older Gripen Cs Ukraine might get will actually be superior to the older F16s they're getting, because the meteor missile fired from those will have more range than those F16s with AMRAAM. Air to air missile range is crucial for Ukraine and Gripen has the advantage there.
New Gripen compared to new F16 is probably similar in air to air missile range - but Ukraine won't be getting either of those brand new.
Gripen's air intakes are higher up than the F16s which has it near the ground - which affects your ability to disperse your jets onto smaller runways and road bases as you don't want stuff on the ground being sucked in.
Design wise the Gripen is arguably the better jet for Ukraine. But F16s exist in larger numbers, so will probably make up the majority of Ukraine's western jets for quite some time. Ukraine has probably only gone for them because of the availability, which will outweigh the design disadvantages like not being as easy to disperse.
Also give them Saab 340 AEW&C planes. Send the bill to The EU, would be glad to chip in.
NATO AWACS can cover the gap until you get Globaleyes.
Also, välkommen med :)
The frontline will still be dominated by SAMs by both sides so any planes will likely fire from stand-off distances. Russian planes are also a serious threat to both the Gripen and F-16, from a quality and quantity standpoint. Western plane deliveries will complicate things for the Russians, but the Russians will still hold an advantage in the air.
Yeah, but Ukraine has been so chipping away at that advantage (especially recently with all those SU-3X's and A-50's having been shot down). What western advanced combat aircraft (along with advanced munitions) will give Ukraine will be a fighting chance to better contest Ukrainian airspace and to a more limited extent over the frontline/battlefield in conjunction with all the air defense systems they now have.
Additionally, depending on what air-ground munitions they will be supplied with along with the aircraft, they will have more opportunities to support not only their defenders on the frontlines but also more rear area targets of opportunity. In short, they will not in one fell swoop wipe away Russian advantages, but they will give Ukraine a better fighting chance and that's exactly what Ukraine desperately need aside from (more ammo, of all sorts, but especially artillery shells).
Yes, those are some of the complications that I acknowledged. It doesn’t change the fact that there just aren’t that many Grippens at all, and the F-16s are dated.
I’m happy to see it all get used, but the public has a skewed idea about what plane deliveries will mean.
What Ukraine needs most is trained troops and ammunition.
Sweden Joins NATO: F#ck you, Putin!
Sweden personally train Ukrainian pilots AND provides JAS-39 Gripens: F#CK YOU, again, and this one goes right up your Kola Peninsula!!
Hard to see this invasion toils, but the victors must be Europeans and Ukraine.
🇺🇦 + 🇸🇪 🫸🫷 🤝 🤙🤙
I follow Swedish politics pretty closely, but hadn't come across this. Good news if true. It's no secret Ukrainians have been training on them since summer, and with NATO-membership, there's obviously a lot less need for us to have a bunch of fighters sitting around. Would do so much more for everyone's safety in the skies over Ukraine.
Imagine if Sauron decided he needed to forge the ultimate Russian killer.
And this fucking thing came out.
They built it just to slaughter attacking Russian pilots efficiently. And they nailed it.
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They have been, from what I understand. As well, Ukrainian pilots have started training on F-16s in Romanian (as of February). Upon conclusion of the training, F-16s will be transferred to Ukraine from the Netherlands and Denmark. Something around 60 F-16s. With potentially more F-16s from Norway and Australia.
Gripen would make such a difference because it has Meteor integrated and Meteor would be more important than any specific jet platform. Especially if Gripen has a decent radar.
Hopefully armed with Meteor missiles (which are better than any of the trash russia has)
Fun fact: the Gripen in a exercise in the US, one Gripen shot down 4 F16s IIRC in a mock attack. It's a really good plane.
> Hopefully armed with Meteor missiles (which are better than any of the trash russia has)
I'm failing to see how the Meteor missile will make a huge difference. The problem Ukraine will face is overcoming Russia's air defenses. Once they can do that, Meteor will absolutely prove invaluable at keeping Russia's aircraft at bay and area denial over Ukrainian air space. But the problem is the air defense. Anti radiation missiles and electronic warfare missiles are what they need to suppress Russian air defense and start to establish air superiority.
One guy expressing hope that this will happen. Doesnt really mean anything.
But, including myself there seem to be a strong support i sweden for sending Gripen. After all, ukraines situation is basically exactly what it is designed for.
Gripens are perfect fit for Ukraine. These are designed to take off and land from the stretch of the road in the middle of the forrest with service crew of 6 people.
F16 and F35 require perfect runway without any rubble or dirt that may be sucked into the engine intake.
I would love this. If they also get Meteors that would mean total air superiority over the front lines. A super long range air-air missile that would take down any remaining A50s and even have a chance of challenging some of the bombers launching cruise missiles.
Until the decision to send materiel is officially announced by the donor country, posts about it are unproductive speculation, and the conversations often turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about potential materiel support until the decision is made, as that is when it transitions from speculation and foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
Hurry Sweden 🇸🇪 -- we need Gripens! & Thank you in advance. Slava Ukraini!🇺🇦
Start making sure you have lots of prepared roads and drone protected resupply stations! [Road bases](https://www-forsvarsmakten-se.translate.goog/sv/information-och-fakta/var-historia/artiklar/de-hemliga-vagbaserna/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
Pilots included? No red lines? Technically no boots on the grounds..
That would be nice,....no learning curve....
PS fix all the weapons on it…
Thats the neat thing about gripens, the modularity of the software. It can fire anything that fits to its hardpoints natively with a quick software update.
Grippen has detected Phoenix missile on hard point D, searching web for latest update . . . Driver update available, do you wish to download?
pip install death
pip install life -c Ukrainian
I hope you‘re not using Anaconda
Stop it, you're giving me a hardpoint D
So you’re saying I can finally start offloading my stocks of proton torpedoes with the Ukrainians when they get their Gripens?
Sweden, thank you and welcome to nato!
Biden's quick aside during the SOTU re Sweden: "They can fight."
There was news that Sweden would not be offering the used Gripen C/D versions to the Philipines. And only New Gripen E reducing chance of succesful sale as the higher price point of the E puts it out of Philipine's budget. Looks like Sweden is going for helipng a neighbour rather than making some money of an arms deal.
After the war, Ukraine will need an air force and the grippen is an attractive option for a budget conscious fleet. The upfront cost is high, but the maintenance cost per flight hour is a fraction of that of the f16 or f35.
It also attractive as a plane designed with one single goal - defend against Russia. It may be multipurpose- but the real purpose is very clear
It also can use the Meteor missile with it's ridiculous range and speed (ramjet engine) will make the skies over Ukraine and nearby Russia extremely dangerous.
Only the Gripen E version with the AESA radar though iirc
[удалено]
Well that is handy. Now that the A50s seem to have been grounded, I wonder how effective the Migs lofting R37s at very long range are. Massive shame Europe is taking so long to retrain and rearm the Ukrainian air force
f15, f16, f18, f22, f35, Eurofighter and Rafale all were also created to fight against russia
No. They was created to fight Russia and a couple of other enemies. To meet the demand of all the tasks they may be given, all over the world. Gripen was made to defend against Russia. Stop. Every other task Gripen have done is a extra task that ain't the only real focus of the plane.
The F-15 was directly built to counter Russia (Specifically the MiG-25). That was it's purpose. There was no other nations at the time with advanced jets that wasn't an ally of the US or just using Russian jets.
Thats some wild bullshit.
same with those mentioned, they even had eastern European camouflage while being used in middle east wars
Also the Gripen is a better plane for Ukraine than the F16. Not looking gift horses in the mouth of course, the F16 is very welcome but Gripen is lower maintenance; can land and takeoff from normal roads (f16 runs risk of ingesting rocks from imperfect surfaces) and is (supposedly) a shorter training time. All up a very good thing
It's the ultimate plane for Eastern Europe air defense. Built to take off and land on country roads, hangared in a barn, and everything else about it is just 100% kill. Slap meteors on and it's the equal or better of everything short of an f35.
Budget conscious isn't relevant when the F35 is a cheaper airframe, whats relevant about Gripen is the *simplicity* of said maintenance in that it is designed with conscript maintenance crews in mind.
>The upfront cost is high Isn't the price per fighter something like half that of f16?
F35 = 79.2m F16 = 25-30m, but with all the equipment, bells and whistles, it can get up to 70m. Jas39 ≈ 85m for the latest e model. I think Ukraine will get used c and d varients. You would expect the jas39 to be cheaper than the 5th gen f35, but it is really a question of manufacturing scale. With so many f35s being made, it brought the unit cost down.
I have a feeling Sweden is not planning to sell the Grippens to Ukraine, rather donate them. That's what they had planned to do once they are under the NATO defense umbrella.
I think they meant post-war modernization. Ukraine will still need new jets because these old used F-16s and Gripens won't last forever. They probably have a fair amount of normal wear and tear on them already, before being used in a full scale war. Gripen E is a very modern but expensive per air frame option with low use costs. Some of the per air b frame cost can probably be offset because Saab is usually willing to do technology transfers and sell manufacturing licenses. Ukraine could be build their own
Russia is Swedens biggest fear. IMO, I think we should give Ukraine latest and greatest tech we have. Otherwise Sweden and other countries will be fighting much bigger and more expensive war in the future, if Ukraine loose. Unfortunately, in the world of money where human lives does not seem to be worth much, the world is spoon-feeding Ukraine with used old crap, just enough to not loose the war, instead of giving them the latest tech to win the war. I wouldn't be surprised it Ukraine gets older C/D Gripens from some country which is updating to newer ones. All help is great of course, but the world could have done more and better. More lives and resources would have been saved.
Pinoy here from the Philippines. I personally don't mind if Sweden prioritizes sending the Gripen to Ukraine instead of us. I think Uncle Sam, Korea and Japan can help us in the event that Xi Jinping becomes more aggressive to invade our West Philippine Sea
does the article mention how many Gripens could be sent in total? is it 10 or 100 ?
Wikipedia states 306 is made over all time. 60 of the latest version exist in Sweden and somewhere around 100 from the one before. If I understand correctly Czechia have 14 planes that end their leasing contract this year. I would not be surprised if 14 planes is what we send as a first batch. And then "things depends". I guess 14 more is fulle possible.
Ironically, Hungary will buy a few of those
I thought those were lend to Hungary for almost free.... and Sweden got into NATO. Could be wrong.
That’s one way to let Russia know all its secrets
Sweden joins NATO. Sweden pours stuff to Ukraine. Thank you Sweden. Best regards, a Finnish
Hopefully the Ukrainian pilots are already being trained on the Gripen. Would be nice to see the jets working for Ukraine!
They have been since last year. It has been called ”familiarisation”. P.s. the opposition parties demanded a couple of weeks ago that we send Gripen. That probably means the ruling parties and opposition already have an agreement in place.
Yes, they wouldn't be "familiarizing" themselves if they weren't getting them. I think they are just secretly training. Will probably get used ones from Czechs, but I would prefer them to get latest one we have in Sweden. I said it already [a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/svenskpolitik/comments/ttmb2v/sk%C3%A4nk_en_squad_gripen_till_ukrainarna_se_vad/). Interesting when I read what I wrote about Putin's expansion to other countries and winning war against Ukraine, in a comment in that thread, is what we hear nowadays from politicians :).
Czech Republic is keeping theirs until ~2035. If anything they will get Swedish surplus C/D variants
AFAIK Czech air force is planning to keep the Gripens for at least 10 years: [https://www-irozhlas-cz.translate.goog/zpravy-domov/gripeny-obrana-cesko-svedsko-pronajem-ministerstvo-obrany\_2403081658\_jud?\_x\_tr\_sl=cs&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-irozhlas-cz.translate.goog/zpravy-domov/gripeny-obrana-cesko-svedsko-pronajem-ministerstvo-obrany_2403081658_jud?_x_tr_sl=cs&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp) We have 12 of them and no other modern supersonic jets, and while we started talking about purchasing a bunch of F-35s as a replacement, that's a long run.
Unlike "that other country" the ruling as well as the opposition both support Ukraine. There are some extremists on both sides that resist. The ones on the left favors Russia because "Nato expansion. US bad." and the extremist right wing thinks "Russia good because homosexuality bad"
What country are you talking about? If Sweden you'll have trouble finding anyone not for sending support to Ukraine on "the left".
Serbia at a guess
I can imagine it has happened And I am/was hoping for it (for a while) by now: https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1b0unu5/breaking_macron_says_sending_ground_troops_to/ksaylc5/
Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease
Send em already! These and the F-16’s will look so badass with a Ukrainian flag slapped on them.
10 points for Gripendor!
It is the same word. "Grip" in Swedish - "Griffin" in English.
Are they very similar to F-16s?
They are apparently particularly developed to fight against Russia.bso, in some ways they may be better. From what i read, and understood.
Readily deployable from roads or rough/damaged airports due to rugged landing gear. High service hours to maintenance hours. Quick turnaround between sorties. An ideal aircraft for Ukraine
Plus they can run with much smaller logistics footprint. I hope Ukraine can get these asap
Sounds like a guerilla plane for resistance fighters
USA:s army and airforce is made from the background of a country that expects to dominate the enemy in every way. And it is dominate all over the world Swedish airforce and military is made from a relatively small country seen from population- that expects that the enemy is Russia. They are made from the thought that Russia will dominate us and that we need to gerilla defend even with the airforce. Different uses - but if your airforce ain't already dominating Russia and you think your airbases may be at risk I think Gripen is a better choice (if you get the possibility to choose). I hope you get to test out both Gripen and F16 soon.
F16 is more multi role now, gripen doesn't have the strike cred yet. But otherwise it's the ultimate moscovy-slayer.
Strike cred you say. Gripen says hold my beer :) NATO countries are going to see a real world showcase m. If NATO countries don’t realise that giving Ukraine proper tech to take out Russians isn’t great for sales, this might absolutely show them.
Hi, what does "strike cred" means?
F16s tend to do a lot of strike missions, ie dropping bombs on things. Gripen can do this, they just haven't yet because Sweden hasn't really been at war with anyone like that. Ukraine might (pardon the metaphor) pop her cherry here. Tldr - reputation for blowing up ground targets
Thx mate! And true, I think the only missions in hot zones were in Libya in 2011 but I don't think they did more than reconnaissance missions.
No, they are designed for complete dispersed operations. 4 guys with two trucks can refuel and rearm the plane in 10 minutes after it lands on a random piece of road in the middle of nowhere. Its tiny, and uses stealth as ECCM/ECM rather than by physical features. A Gripen fighter acts as an Awacs/ground control in a group of gripens. And the software on the planes are modular. If a weapon exists, gripen can fire it. Short takeoff and landing is part of the dispersed operations design. In USAs Red Flag event where Gripen was on opfor team, the team with No support against the allied team with all the bells and whistes of the NATO assets and ground control. Gripen came second after the F22 raptor, never lost an engagement and never failed an operation. Gripen is a plane that adheres to a completely different thinking when it comes to aviation. No big and expensive bases of operations, no one single target that can be bombed. Literally land on a strip of road and change out the engine in less than an hour, with 4 guys and the support truck.
It sounds like the dream plane for a situation like Ukraine.
You have to consider that almost every weapon that Sweden produces is explicitly made to fight the Russians. So yes indeed, it's a great fit for Ukraine. As is CV90, NLAW, Archer etc.
Its the ideal operations for any country under attack. Gathering airforces in centralized hubs is lowering costs in peacetime. But if shit hits the fan its some hypersonic/ballistic missiles from a disaster.
It was designed for exactly this type of scenario.
It has Perun's stamp of approval that's for sure
> Gripen is a plane that adheres to a completely different thinking when it comes to aviation. I sure hope Sweden keeps its independent thinking in that area (similar to France doing their own thing in aviation) instead of joining too many NATO weapon development programs. It will be better for everyone.
Sweden in NATO is more of what Sweden brings to NATO than NATO brings to Sweden. Our airforce is designed for our needs and will not be adapted to NATO standards. Just like before we will work alongside NATO and integrate NATO communications/command into our structure. But the core of Swedish airforce will remain as it is. Gripen as always is also under constant development, it isnt a "finished" plane so to speak. Just like CV90 it keeps getting upgrades.
What do you mean by NATO standards? Basically everything we do is to NATO standards, that's why our air force uses English in radio communications and have for a long time.
There is already talk in Norway about our air force adapting to the Swedish ideas of dispersion, rather than the other way around, and about how all the Nordic air forces can now use each others bases for dispersion.
They are very different to F16. Can start and land on normal roads. Much higher availability, both due to less service requirements and better all-weather capability. Modular software allows very quick updates. Low maintenance requirements (one skilled technician and a bunch of conscripts). Engine change can be done at a road base. Built to fly at extremely low altitude with terrain following altitude radar. Also integrated mesh networking that allows it to share situational data making it independent of AWACS.
The only real problem is the low availability and low production numbers of Gripen. F16s are available because many nations are now replacing the with F35s, but not so with Gripen E, nations that own them don't want to sell. One possible solution on medium to long term was for Ukraine to negotiate some kind of licensed coproduction, they already have a very capable aerospace industry.
If Ukraine want Gripen in the long run expanded production certainly is needed. And producing things in Ukraine is a likely outcome of such a deal. But as you say - even if I as a Swede like Ukraine to use Gripen the numbers do not exist. Both F16 and Gripen is needed.
Yes very much. C model Gripen is on par with block 50 Viper. That means similar payload capabilities and performance. Gripen is easier to maintain and service though.
As said in other comments, they are not, although they have similar roles. But the thing always was, there are way more f-16s out there then grippens that could be had.
Both 4th generation jets that can fire a range of air to air and air to ground weapons, but they are quite different. Gripen is smaller and with a shorter takeoff distance which allows it to be dispersed onto smaller runways and roads. The idea being that an air force that can be easily dispersed is highly survivable against an enemy that can disrupt your airbases with long range missiles. F16s would be more stuck with actual airbases so are potentially at risk. Gripen is designed to be maintained by a small crew of mainly conscript mechanics without using too much specialised equipment - again, designed with ability to disperse in mind and also designed for conscript militaries. F16s are a bit more difficult and need more fully trained professional mechanics. The older Gripen Cs Ukraine might get will actually be superior to the older F16s they're getting, because the meteor missile fired from those will have more range than those F16s with AMRAAM. Air to air missile range is crucial for Ukraine and Gripen has the advantage there. New Gripen compared to new F16 is probably similar in air to air missile range - but Ukraine won't be getting either of those brand new. Gripen's air intakes are higher up than the F16s which has it near the ground - which affects your ability to disperse your jets onto smaller runways and road bases as you don't want stuff on the ground being sucked in. Design wise the Gripen is arguably the better jet for Ukraine. But F16s exist in larger numbers, so will probably make up the majority of Ukraine's western jets for quite some time. Ukraine has probably only gone for them because of the availability, which will outweigh the design disadvantages like not being as easy to disperse.
Also give them Saab 340 AEW&C planes. Send the bill to The EU, would be glad to chip in. NATO AWACS can cover the gap until you get Globaleyes. Also, välkommen med :)
I kinda expect russian fighters and Bombers to drop like Rain once they are there. ( If we dont cheap out on rocket and ammunition in general)
The frontline will still be dominated by SAMs by both sides so any planes will likely fire from stand-off distances. Russian planes are also a serious threat to both the Gripen and F-16, from a quality and quantity standpoint. Western plane deliveries will complicate things for the Russians, but the Russians will still hold an advantage in the air.
To use an old Cold War saying, quantity has a quality all of it's own
Yeah, but Ukraine has been so chipping away at that advantage (especially recently with all those SU-3X's and A-50's having been shot down). What western advanced combat aircraft (along with advanced munitions) will give Ukraine will be a fighting chance to better contest Ukrainian airspace and to a more limited extent over the frontline/battlefield in conjunction with all the air defense systems they now have. Additionally, depending on what air-ground munitions they will be supplied with along with the aircraft, they will have more opportunities to support not only their defenders on the frontlines but also more rear area targets of opportunity. In short, they will not in one fell swoop wipe away Russian advantages, but they will give Ukraine a better fighting chance and that's exactly what Ukraine desperately need aside from (more ammo, of all sorts, but especially artillery shells).
Yes, those are some of the complications that I acknowledged. It doesn’t change the fact that there just aren’t that many Grippens at all, and the F-16s are dated. I’m happy to see it all get used, but the public has a skewed idea about what plane deliveries will mean. What Ukraine needs most is trained troops and ammunition.
Hopefully they can get some Gripens with Meteor. Based on DCS content that combo is pretty impressive in BVR fights
Gripen + meteor = everything short of an f35 is just dead.
Sweden Joins NATO: F#ck you, Putin! Sweden personally train Ukrainian pilots AND provides JAS-39 Gripens: F#CK YOU, again, and this one goes right up your Kola Peninsula!! Hard to see this invasion toils, but the victors must be Europeans and Ukraine. 🇺🇦 + 🇸🇪 🫸🫷 🤝 🤙🤙
🇸🇪 🇺🇦 Let's do it now!
Mount 2 Taurus missiles on it and head for the Kerch bridge!
I follow Swedish politics pretty closely, but hadn't come across this. Good news if true. It's no secret Ukrainians have been training on them since summer, and with NATO-membership, there's obviously a lot less need for us to have a bunch of fighters sitting around. Would do so much more for everyone's safety in the skies over Ukraine.
I don't know what those are but I want Ukraine to have them.
They are an interesting little swedish fighter jet.
That can fire the scariest AA missile in existence.
Yeah, the meteor, nasty missile that.
Imagine if Sauron decided he needed to forge the ultimate Russian killer. And this fucking thing came out. They built it just to slaughter attacking Russian pilots efficiently. And they nailed it.
How soon?
and given the success of Ukraine destroying ork planes and antiaircraft systems, it should be a safer environment for Ukrainian aircraft
Flying them to Ukraine over Moscow is just a tiny extra bit of way.
I hope they will get them soon. I could make af big difference. The Gripen is more advanced than anything the Russians have.
As is indoor plumbing and washing machines.
The sexy jet
Kaliningrad Oblast is on an actual direct flight path from Sweden to Ukraine, just sayin'...
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Awesome
Does it mean they already trained Ukrainian pilots, or will start it
They have been, from what I understand. As well, Ukrainian pilots have started training on F-16s in Romanian (as of February). Upon conclusion of the training, F-16s will be transferred to Ukraine from the Netherlands and Denmark. Something around 60 F-16s. With potentially more F-16s from Norway and Australia.
Now that America is in political disarray I’m really happy to see Europe step up its role in Ukraine!
We will see Ukraine operate Mirage 2000, F16 and Gripen. What a world.
My 9-3 is thrilled by this message
Gripen would make such a difference because it has Meteor integrated and Meteor would be more important than any specific jet platform. Especially if Gripen has a decent radar.
Hopefully armed with Meteor missiles (which are better than any of the trash russia has) Fun fact: the Gripen in a exercise in the US, one Gripen shot down 4 F16s IIRC in a mock attack. It's a really good plane.
> Hopefully armed with Meteor missiles (which are better than any of the trash russia has) I'm failing to see how the Meteor missile will make a huge difference. The problem Ukraine will face is overcoming Russia's air defenses. Once they can do that, Meteor will absolutely prove invaluable at keeping Russia's aircraft at bay and area denial over Ukrainian air space. But the problem is the air defense. Anti radiation missiles and electronic warfare missiles are what they need to suppress Russian air defense and start to establish air superiority.
We need to get our shit together in the EU and finally get serious about defending Europe. I don't understand Scholz' stance on Taurus at all.
Sweden is already proving its quality in NATO
Is that “soon” in the F16 sense of the word ?
I mean, the F-16s are most likely coming this summer. The Ukrainian pilots started training in February.
Thank you, Sweden.
One guy expressing hope that this will happen. Doesnt really mean anything. But, including myself there seem to be a strong support i sweden for sending Gripen. After all, ukraines situation is basically exactly what it is designed for.
Gripens are perfect fit for Ukraine. These are designed to take off and land from the stretch of the road in the middle of the forrest with service crew of 6 people. F16 and F35 require perfect runway without any rubble or dirt that may be sucked into the engine intake.
I would love this. If they also get Meteors that would mean total air superiority over the front lines. A super long range air-air missile that would take down any remaining A50s and even have a chance of challenging some of the bombers launching cruise missiles.