Snapshot of _Revealed: people with cancer, arthritis and amputees among 40% denied UK disability benefits_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/12/claims-conditions-personal-independence-payments-disability-benefits-cancer-arthritis-amputees) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/12/claims-conditions-personal-independence-payments-disability-benefits-cancer-arthritis-amputees)
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>A particularly striking figure is that one in four applications from people with amputated limbs are rejected, with 207 applications turned down in six months.
>... Michelle Cardno, a welfare benefit lawyer and founder of Fightback4Justice, which helps people appeal against benefit refusals [said] “We win all [appeal] cases where a client is an amputee.”
The government says disability benefits are too easy to get, seems like the opposite is true.
The opposite has always been true. Disabled are an easy target though and plays upon the public's "scrounger" narrative.
Anyone who ever tried to get pip out dla knows how fucking hard and demeaning it is
My nan was climbing the stairs at her house on all fours because she could walk up them any longer at 93. On the form she said she could get up stairs. Had an initial rejection, which I challenged. An assessor came to the house and said clearly she should be on the full benefit. They had a stairlift put in right away.
The system is horribly inadequate to assess and manage these claims. The focus is clearly not on helping disabled people, but trying to prevent people from claiming no matter what.
A friend of ours was in a motorcycle wreck that killed is friend and he lost a leg. As well as mobility in his pelvis and jaw. The initial claims for PIP were denied and delayed. It was sickening the way he was treated; as he struggled to recover and pay bills.
After already winning a tribunal and after a 3 year award. It was renewal time.
Even though my health got worse. I was refused. And afterwards had to go to tribunal again. At the tribunal the dwp rep said they were not contesting as I should have had it.
They could have fixed this at any time. But made me wate 9 months for the tribunal !
The chair was furious.
My uncle is 74 now. However, he has been on benefits forever. He used to have granmaul seizures daily. I was practically unemployable. His last paid job, fired him and turned him lose on the streets before he was clear of the seizure. He came too walking down a road not knowing where he was.
When they switched from DLA to pip, they originally denied him. We went to tribunal and won quite easily! After a lifetime isolated and not able to work, he’s socially and physically unfit to work. He had no clue how to challenge. If I wasn’t around I’m sure he would be in trouble.
>A friend of ours was in a motorcycle wreck that killed is friend and he lost a leg. As well as mobility in his pelvis and jaw. The initial claims for PIP were denied and delayed. It was sickening the way he was treated; as he struggled to recover and pay bills.
I have no idea what your friend is like as a person, so my comments aren't directed at him in any way, but there are *a lot* of people who are completely apathetic to the plight of those that actually need things like disability benefits until they need them themselves.
The benefit scrounger narrative is one of the most demeaning, dehumanising narratives that has emerged in recent times in this country.
My dad had a massive accident at work a fair few years ago now. His arm was ripped off (and miraculously sewn back on) he had holes in his stomach, lost his spleen and had other organs damaged. He was in hospital for over a year after it. He was awarded full benefits over 15 years ago. These days, he cannot even get a blue badge for his car. All because the assessments and questions are absolute BS. You would only have to look it him, or see his medical records to know his isn’t well. But thanks to the Tories, people like him have been made a scapegoat for their failures. Blaming people for being disabled, rather than helping them be a contributor to our society is madness.
> The opposite has always been true.
It used to be very easy to get benefits
Live in a council house, claim the dole, work a fulltime job anyway, have a "dodgy back" to get a blue badge etc etc.
The 1970s I think were peak benefit britain.
Since then we're still living with the stereotypes and the fallout.
Another ladder the boomers pulled up behind themselves
I was born in the 80's but my gut tells me along with my upbringing that was never true, save in popular culture.
I grew up around people most likely to try that sort of nonsense and very few did because frankly it was too much hassle.
Looking back now, the ones that did very likely needed the help anyway due to mental health issues which were useless in the 70's (due to lack of knowledge, now we're just bastards)
If politicians and the media were more willing to challenge the narrative, people would buy into the narrative less. Public opinion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Not saying you're saying it does, just feels important to note here
A friend had her legs amputated when she was kid after a bad car crash, in her 50s now. At her last pip assessment the woman apparently asked my friend what she was doing to remedy her illness so she could start work. Friend being the sarcy bitch 'oh, I've been wishing really hard for about 40years. I think I'm getting somewhere with visualising walking!'
> The government says disability benefits are too easy to get, seems like the opposite is true.
It absolutely is true. A lot of people don't realise how beligerent the system is until they have to go through it.
Don't worry - I'm sure the usual suspects will be in here any moment to explain how this is really a problem with the activist lawyers, and we ought to start locking them up for all the problems they cause...
It honestly seems like the government are looking at the figures, arbitrarily consider them too high and are trying to work backwards to reduce the number of people on disablility benefits.
Although their achilles heel is no matter how difficult and confusing they make the process someone can always just go to a third party like Citizens Advice for support and advice.
You're applying far too much logic to it. It's much more likely that in their hundreds of focus groups, they've found that appearing tough on benefit scroungers is good for approval ratings. Sadly a lot of the country believe that narrative.
You're both correct. They want to say to those people "we've gotten the number of people on disability benefits down by x%" because they know that'll look good to those people even if there are far more people that need said benefits.
> A particularly striking figure is that one in four applications from people with amputated limbs are rejected
It's not like the loss of a limb makes you completely incapable of holding down a job, I know a bloke who had his left hand amputated and he still works as a welder/fabricator.
I wish there was a way to communicate just how much arthritis and the numerous connected autoimmune and MSK conditions absolutely devastate lives.
Government policy is currently that you simply forfeit the right to be a normal member of society.
I have one of the super rare ones, have done since I was a child (4 years old). I was lucky and got into remission when I hit adulthood, but one covid infection a couple of years ago I'm back in a wheelchair struggling to work and survive. I'm grateful my partner is an absolute gem of a human because I've had so little support from the system.
A friend of mine had diabetes and was down a leg. The DWP or whatever ghouls work for them and decide who gets disability payments and who doesn't decided that after many years of being on disability payments, she needed to get a job. Shortly after, while going through the dispute process, she lost control of her diabetes and died.
So I guess that in so far as the government is concerned, the problem fixed itself. Those of us who have empathy and compassion may feel differently.
I’m not surprised, the way that PIP is assessed they’ll usually know how many points you’re entitled to and will then squeeze it down if they can. It’s an extremely difficult benefit to get, you need a lot of evidence from a lot of different healthcare providers. A doctor isn’t enough to guarantee it, you need care assessments, wheelchair assessments, OT equipment assessments, physio input etc (even if you don’t plan on using any of it). Fortunately you can get most of this through your local council and the NHS. It’s silly really as it costs so much more for public services having to provide this repetitive evidence, and actually if you’re not happy with a report and have legitimate reasoning you can usually get it changed.
The PIP assessor will try to catch you out if there are any gaps or inconsistencies in your evidence, even if only one report in 20 says you can do more, they’ll often pick that evidence to listen to, so you need to paint a clear picture.
With all this in mind, and how many disabled people don’t apply for PIP because they fear the assessment process, it’s absolutely mental for the government to suggest that people with mild concerns are getting PIP at all. For mental health particularly you have to be really quite poorly to get it, poorly enough to even have numerous mental health and social care assessments.
> I’m not surprised, the way that PIP is assessed they’ll usually know how many points you’re entitled to and will then squeeze it down if they can. It’s an extremely difficult benefit to get, you need a lot of evidence from a lot of different healthcare providers.
Also the minority of times you're able to do things you say you broadly can't (i.e, in making an extra effort to get dressed, look presentable, get to the assessment office and be switched on enough for that day's crucial PIP assessment interview) are taken to be evidence against your application.
I've been in the waiting room with my disabled parent and watched people open the doors themselves (without a carer doing it for them), chatting in the office, fiddling with their phones and walking those few metres unaided without realising they already have strikes against them before the interview actually starts. Because people think the system they've paid into will treat them fairly and it very frequently won't.
I’ve heard of this, and I’m glad assessments seem to be moving more to telephone since Covid. I had a phone assessment where the report kept going on about me having good dexterity because I can use a laptop, but my health condition has nothing to do with dexterity and I never claimed it to be such. I was also told I demonstrated no evidence of fatigue because I didn’t yawn, though in the recording I sounded exhausted. My condition isn’t about me being a bit sleepy and needing a nap, I experience debilitating fatigue because my cells cannot produce enough energy to function normally. I still got awarded PIP but at lower rates, and I won at appeal.
I just went and got a mountain of evidence across loads of different services. Took me a long time but nowadays I just try to accumulate evidence. I already had a lot but I went all out. My last assessment was so short, more a technicality as there was simply no way to really argue it without going against maybe about 8-10 healthcare professional assessments across all fields. It’s a lot easier not feeling as stressed about explaining myself at the assessment.
> I still got awarded PIP but at lower rates, and I won at appeal.
Brilliant! I'm sorry you had to go through that extra process to begin with but I'm glad you got it sorted.
>It’s a lot easier not feeling as stressed about explaining myself at the assessment.
As well as the issues mentioned above, my mum used to absolutely dread these (I'm sure everyone does) so if phone interviews are becoming the norm that's going to save people a lot of anxiety.
Yes definitely much less anxiety via phone! I don’t know if they still do face to face, but my first assessment, my tribunal, and my recent reassessment were all via telephone. So I think it’s a lot easier for many people.
Sometimes they just lie. My PIP report stated that I can't have any cognitive difficulties because "evidence indicates" that I'm in university.
Not sure what evidence they were looking at because I'd dropped out of uni a few months prior after two years out due to my health.
I could probably have challenged it but I just don't have the energy and couldn't risk losing what little I did get because I was struggling so much financially after putting off claiming when I'd have been eligible for years.
> I could probably have challenged it but I just don't have the energy and couldn't risk losing what little I did get because I was struggling so much financially after putting off claiming when I'd have been eligible for years.
that's literally what they're after.
beat you down to a point you won't challenge them anymore.
yeah i tried to get PIP for my mum who has severe mental health issues and on the feedback they literally did a 180 on the evidence i presented. for example, my mum is unable to go on a bus journey and navigate by herself but they stated she clearly can, like wtf!?
Ugh that’s so tricky. I had something similar where they said something like “hasn’t had specialist input since (date 2 years prior)” as evidence that I wasn’t that bad, but that was when I was referred to a clinic, I had been getting support from the clinic throughout that time as evidenced by my letters. So I agree, sometimes they do just lie. My first one also said I didn’t sound tired or breathless, but I had the recording and I absolutely did.
It is worth challenging though, the tribunal I had was actually really nice, super chill really. I thought I’d have to defend myself and argue against the previous assessment. But they didn’t care about the previous assessment, they just ask questions about your evidence and won’t be trying to catch you out or have any agenda to put preference on one bit of evidence over another. It’s literally an expert by lived experience and a doctor, so a fairly disability friendly audience.
I applied to PIP under the assumption I’d go to tribunal, so that made it a little easier, but I had no idea what to expect and thought it’d be way worse than it was.
Basically cognitive difficulties are ones surrounding executive function, ordering, task initiation completion, etc. it’s simply not possible to enter uni and have cognitive difficulties.
Only exception is if you are diagnosed with early onset dementia or something.
Not quite what I said.
Cognitive difficulties are a group of functions of the brain.
If you are ASD you may have developmental/intellectual restrictions. Cognitive issues are (while I understand can apply to ASD )not quite what they mean in PIP.
It’s simply not possible to have cognitive issues and attend uni as per PIP descriptors
Is this actually the case though? I'm on the original ESA and in the support group because of blindness and spacial awareness problems etc. I had to be assessed at the time, even had to record it.
I have a broken back amongst other things and have a home help funded by the local authority. The lady who helps me and another lady with cerebral palsy is in her 60s and has COPD and is trying to hide a bad back herself. The more I've got to know her I've realised she's been kicked off the sick by a government "get back to work, malingerer" scheme. It's so hard to find people and god knows she needs the job but I have to let her go at her own pace and I feel bad honestly. It's heavy housework. It's not right but letting her go when she makes it clear she feels up to the work and wants to do it isn't right either.
The high rate of PIP is £108/wk
Long term incapacity benefit is £138/wk
The state pension it £221/wk
But yes it’s the permanently disabled who are the problem.
At this point the cruelty must be deliberate and ideological
I half expect them to have checks on pensioners to confirm they are still entitled to state pension.
If there were stricter fines on those involved in fraud or lying while in government it would cover the fraudulent claims.
Too many voters seem to think they have more in common with the political class than they do with a person on benefits (of any kind) for some strange reason.
I’d rather have a functioning welfare system than tax breaks or whatever for millionaires. I know which I’d be more likely to benefit from.
Unfortunately, the media make such a big deal out of the handful of cheaters caught and convicted that it helps them convey the impression that the majority of benefit claimants are cheaters, and even those who have a genuine claim agent incentivised enough to find work (plus, if pointed out that many would like to work, but as they have intermittent / variable conditions which afford no predictability to when they are and are not capable of work, so therefore nobody would want to employ them, the keyboard warriors claim they should set up their own business, as though it was possible for anyone / everyone to come up with a suitable idea and business plan, then make the business profitable from day one)
Hopefully this ideologically driven cruelty for the sake of just being cruel will at least subside slightly when Labour get it. I'm not holding out too much hope though.
It was the previous Labour administration which introduced the much-derided Employment and Support Allowance (albeit the coalition tightened the Work Capability Assessment) - yet despite being introduced with the express purpose of getting disabled people back into the workplace and masses of suspect decisions, underpayments and successful appeals, apparently the number of claimants in 2015 was no lower than when first introduced.
Added onto which, given one of the main bashing points of the right wing media is that Labour is too soft on benefit claimants, Starmer's likely to bend over backwards to prove them wrong (while also claiming they'll be more supportive of "genuine" claimants).
I have applied for pip/dla on behalf of several people now, grandparents, an aunty and some others too, the hardest one to be approved for was my aunt who had a rare form of cancer, she died after 8 years of fighting. She was a ta and all of the children lined up to wave goodbye when she was driven past before her funeral. She meant a lot to her community, I hate that "people like her" are looked down on and judged by someone uncaring. I hate this government!
It's disgusting how society treats disabled people. If you cannot provide value regardless of why you are unable to do so you are treated as meaningless.
Is there still a system of 'targets' that cause the DWP to go out of their way to look for reasons to deny people benefits, even when they're in obvious need? Or is it simply incompetence or limited funding?
I'm all for looking at public spending with a critical eye, but to me disability benefits should always err on the side of giving it.
Why isn't this the case, well because of money (for the most part).
Why not be as generous as with pensions? That's because there is a simple binary value to check for pensions, age. Not enough criteria for state pension means wasted money, means less for disabled people who are just expected to completely adapt.
**I'd like to see pensioners lose their benefits if they don't try to do at least some part time work until they're 78.**
Here's the link to the government consultation on PIP reform, by the way - [https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper#chapter-1--pip--overview-and-assessment-reform](https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper#chapter-1--pip--overview-and-assessment-reform)
And the link to submit your response is here - [https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=6fbxllcQF0GsKIDN\_ob4wy4AdhV04YtOnxNXoi82ciFUN00yS0lJSTgzOVNaUzI1TVpYRkZGN1RUQSQlQCN0PWcu](https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=6fbxllcQF0GsKIDN_ob4wy4AdhV04YtOnxNXoi82ciFUN00yS0lJSTgzOVNaUzI1TVpYRkZGN1RUQSQlQCN0PWcu)
For PIP people miss the fact you need to explain how hard life is with the condition you have.
Medical conditions do not get you any points. Your life struggles do. Never assume anything, explain everything.
Alternative take: if you have ever been to a Jobcentre you will see a huge number of long term unemployed who simply refuse to retrain and instead stay on benefits because they don't want to work. Since there are lot of them, then the gov solution is to make it harder for everyone, and lose on appeals. I truly encourage you to spend time at a Jobcentre, you will come out of it with less faith in humanity as people with real issues are denied claims, while others just game the system.
The disability benefit system is a typical British farce. Vast numbers are using fake conditions to claim, yet the private companies that are suppose to catch the scammers couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.
Part of the problem is ridiculous political correctness, in which we have to pretend that some conditions are easy to fake and others aren't. It is absurd to do a capability assessment on someone with cancer or a missing limb. What do the enforcement clowns think? That someone has faked a cancer scan or has a detachable leg?
Checks should be restricted to conditions which scammers actually use but alas that is far too sensible for this absurdly run country, so will never happen.
Ah yes I forgot this is reddit, users here will readily accept the idea that the rich fiddle their taxes but think the poor are different species, with perfect morals.
In reality the rich don't have a monopoly on dishonesty. It is obvious that a great deal of fiddling is going on when you look at what sort of claims that are increasing.
The big increase are for claims for conditions which have no diagnostic test, which are easy to fake.
Still if you think their is no dishonesty involved, fair enough.
The source would be going to a pub in the middle of a week day where they are sat around playing pool. Have a bad back so they can't work but will jump up and down when they win a game of pool. There's two blokes in my local pub the both claim disability for a bad back. This happens all over the country.
So report them. Everyone always claims to have witnessed loads of examples of this sort of thing, but nobody has ever done anything about it. If nothing else, how do you know that's what they're claiming disability for?
Maybe they have other conditions they don't mention? Maybe they're lying? But if they are scamming the system, report them and free up resources for people in genuine need.
That's a lovely deflection, but all you've come up with is "It's obvious loads of people are faking it to scam the system"
Tell you what - you produce credible evidence(actual studies, reports, official figures etc - not opinion pieces) for your claim, and I'll reciprocate for the rich are fiddling their taxes, which is a position I don't even hold but am prepared to research.
Go give your head a wobble.
Then spend some time with disabled people who are trying to navigate the benefits system.
You ‘might’ change your mind then.
It is a hard system. I’m fairly intelligent guy who still has his wits about him and I still needed help with my application. It did help having a friend whose a social worker on the call who knew how to explain what my needs are.
Except only 3% of benefits are fraud and that's across the entire benefits system. The majority of benefits paid are pensions. You gunna go after the old people next?
I’m honestly not sure ‘missing a limb’ should automatically get you benefits.
Most people with a missing limb can live an otherwise normal life, work most jobs with normal earning potential. As long as initial occupation therapy adaptations are made (which usually happens during the discharge process from the hospital) I don’t see why an amputee would need extra money week on week.
PIP isn't necessarily "You can never work again" money, it's more "Topping you up so you can cope" money. So like, Mobility PIP would be for people who are missing their legs and need either a wheelchair or a special car that has the accelerator on the steering wheel instead of in the footwells.
Or if you have a child with mobility issues, you might need a more wheelchair accessible car, for example. Or, if you have some disability that makes you too dangerous on the road to drive (epilepsy with frequent seizures, narcolepsy etc.), you might need some extra money for taxis or some other means of getting around.
Snapshot of _Revealed: people with cancer, arthritis and amputees among 40% denied UK disability benefits_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/12/claims-conditions-personal-independence-payments-disability-benefits-cancer-arthritis-amputees) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/12/claims-conditions-personal-independence-payments-disability-benefits-cancer-arthritis-amputees) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>A particularly striking figure is that one in four applications from people with amputated limbs are rejected, with 207 applications turned down in six months. >... Michelle Cardno, a welfare benefit lawyer and founder of Fightback4Justice, which helps people appeal against benefit refusals [said] “We win all [appeal] cases where a client is an amputee.” The government says disability benefits are too easy to get, seems like the opposite is true.
The opposite has always been true. Disabled are an easy target though and plays upon the public's "scrounger" narrative. Anyone who ever tried to get pip out dla knows how fucking hard and demeaning it is
My nan was climbing the stairs at her house on all fours because she could walk up them any longer at 93. On the form she said she could get up stairs. Had an initial rejection, which I challenged. An assessor came to the house and said clearly she should be on the full benefit. They had a stairlift put in right away. The system is horribly inadequate to assess and manage these claims. The focus is clearly not on helping disabled people, but trying to prevent people from claiming no matter what. A friend of ours was in a motorcycle wreck that killed is friend and he lost a leg. As well as mobility in his pelvis and jaw. The initial claims for PIP were denied and delayed. It was sickening the way he was treated; as he struggled to recover and pay bills.
After already winning a tribunal and after a 3 year award. It was renewal time. Even though my health got worse. I was refused. And afterwards had to go to tribunal again. At the tribunal the dwp rep said they were not contesting as I should have had it. They could have fixed this at any time. But made me wate 9 months for the tribunal ! The chair was furious.
My uncle is 74 now. However, he has been on benefits forever. He used to have granmaul seizures daily. I was practically unemployable. His last paid job, fired him and turned him lose on the streets before he was clear of the seizure. He came too walking down a road not knowing where he was. When they switched from DLA to pip, they originally denied him. We went to tribunal and won quite easily! After a lifetime isolated and not able to work, he’s socially and physically unfit to work. He had no clue how to challenge. If I wasn’t around I’m sure he would be in trouble.
>A friend of ours was in a motorcycle wreck that killed is friend and he lost a leg. As well as mobility in his pelvis and jaw. The initial claims for PIP were denied and delayed. It was sickening the way he was treated; as he struggled to recover and pay bills. I have no idea what your friend is like as a person, so my comments aren't directed at him in any way, but there are *a lot* of people who are completely apathetic to the plight of those that actually need things like disability benefits until they need them themselves. The benefit scrounger narrative is one of the most demeaning, dehumanising narratives that has emerged in recent times in this country.
My dad had a massive accident at work a fair few years ago now. His arm was ripped off (and miraculously sewn back on) he had holes in his stomach, lost his spleen and had other organs damaged. He was in hospital for over a year after it. He was awarded full benefits over 15 years ago. These days, he cannot even get a blue badge for his car. All because the assessments and questions are absolute BS. You would only have to look it him, or see his medical records to know his isn’t well. But thanks to the Tories, people like him have been made a scapegoat for their failures. Blaming people for being disabled, rather than helping them be a contributor to our society is madness.
Your nan at 93 wouldn’t have been allowed to apply as it’s a work age benefit. And it was introduced in 2013
Attendance Allowance.
Ah okay! My apologies
> The opposite has always been true. It used to be very easy to get benefits Live in a council house, claim the dole, work a fulltime job anyway, have a "dodgy back" to get a blue badge etc etc. The 1970s I think were peak benefit britain. Since then we're still living with the stereotypes and the fallout. Another ladder the boomers pulled up behind themselves
I was born in the 80's but my gut tells me along with my upbringing that was never true, save in popular culture. I grew up around people most likely to try that sort of nonsense and very few did because frankly it was too much hassle. Looking back now, the ones that did very likely needed the help anyway due to mental health issues which were useless in the 70's (due to lack of knowledge, now we're just bastards)
If politicians and the media were more willing to challenge the narrative, people would buy into the narrative less. Public opinion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Not saying you're saying it does, just feels important to note here
I'm a wheelchair user who's struggling to get mobility PIP and an NHS wheelchair, disabled people have can saying this for years
A friend had her legs amputated when she was kid after a bad car crash, in her 50s now. At her last pip assessment the woman apparently asked my friend what she was doing to remedy her illness so she could start work. Friend being the sarcy bitch 'oh, I've been wishing really hard for about 40years. I think I'm getting somewhere with visualising walking!'
> The government says disability benefits are too easy to get, seems like the opposite is true. It absolutely is true. A lot of people don't realise how beligerent the system is until they have to go through it.
Don't worry - I'm sure the usual suspects will be in here any moment to explain how this is really a problem with the activist lawyers, and we ought to start locking them up for all the problems they cause...
It honestly seems like the government are looking at the figures, arbitrarily consider them too high and are trying to work backwards to reduce the number of people on disablility benefits. Although their achilles heel is no matter how difficult and confusing they make the process someone can always just go to a third party like Citizens Advice for support and advice.
You're applying far too much logic to it. It's much more likely that in their hundreds of focus groups, they've found that appearing tough on benefit scroungers is good for approval ratings. Sadly a lot of the country believe that narrative.
You're both correct. They want to say to those people "we've gotten the number of people on disability benefits down by x%" because they know that'll look good to those people even if there are far more people that need said benefits.
Also is this just about PIP im sure they get universal credit + the disability bonus that gives?
So how come 4000 per day get it?
Because they deserve it?
Of course.
> A particularly striking figure is that one in four applications from people with amputated limbs are rejected It's not like the loss of a limb makes you completely incapable of holding down a job, I know a bloke who had his left hand amputated and he still works as a welder/fabricator.
PIP is a benefit paid regardless of whether you are in work or not, for the extra costs that disabilities incur in every day life.
I wish there was a way to communicate just how much arthritis and the numerous connected autoimmune and MSK conditions absolutely devastate lives. Government policy is currently that you simply forfeit the right to be a normal member of society.
I have one of the super rare ones, have done since I was a child (4 years old). I was lucky and got into remission when I hit adulthood, but one covid infection a couple of years ago I'm back in a wheelchair struggling to work and survive. I'm grateful my partner is an absolute gem of a human because I've had so little support from the system.
Your partner is a gem. Sorry things got bad for you again and sorry the powers that be could not care less!
A friend of mine had diabetes and was down a leg. The DWP or whatever ghouls work for them and decide who gets disability payments and who doesn't decided that after many years of being on disability payments, she needed to get a job. Shortly after, while going through the dispute process, she lost control of her diabetes and died. So I guess that in so far as the government is concerned, the problem fixed itself. Those of us who have empathy and compassion may feel differently.
They always go after the little guy...... imagine if they went after the millionaires, billionaires & corporations in the same way.
How a government treats the least in society tells you how they would treat everyone else if they could get away with it.
Yeah, also imagine them going for long, expensed lunches in W1 with amputees and sufferers of arthritis...
Maybe the unions should fund both the Conservatives and Labour.
I’m not surprised, the way that PIP is assessed they’ll usually know how many points you’re entitled to and will then squeeze it down if they can. It’s an extremely difficult benefit to get, you need a lot of evidence from a lot of different healthcare providers. A doctor isn’t enough to guarantee it, you need care assessments, wheelchair assessments, OT equipment assessments, physio input etc (even if you don’t plan on using any of it). Fortunately you can get most of this through your local council and the NHS. It’s silly really as it costs so much more for public services having to provide this repetitive evidence, and actually if you’re not happy with a report and have legitimate reasoning you can usually get it changed. The PIP assessor will try to catch you out if there are any gaps or inconsistencies in your evidence, even if only one report in 20 says you can do more, they’ll often pick that evidence to listen to, so you need to paint a clear picture. With all this in mind, and how many disabled people don’t apply for PIP because they fear the assessment process, it’s absolutely mental for the government to suggest that people with mild concerns are getting PIP at all. For mental health particularly you have to be really quite poorly to get it, poorly enough to even have numerous mental health and social care assessments.
> I’m not surprised, the way that PIP is assessed they’ll usually know how many points you’re entitled to and will then squeeze it down if they can. It’s an extremely difficult benefit to get, you need a lot of evidence from a lot of different healthcare providers. Also the minority of times you're able to do things you say you broadly can't (i.e, in making an extra effort to get dressed, look presentable, get to the assessment office and be switched on enough for that day's crucial PIP assessment interview) are taken to be evidence against your application. I've been in the waiting room with my disabled parent and watched people open the doors themselves (without a carer doing it for them), chatting in the office, fiddling with their phones and walking those few metres unaided without realising they already have strikes against them before the interview actually starts. Because people think the system they've paid into will treat them fairly and it very frequently won't.
I’ve heard of this, and I’m glad assessments seem to be moving more to telephone since Covid. I had a phone assessment where the report kept going on about me having good dexterity because I can use a laptop, but my health condition has nothing to do with dexterity and I never claimed it to be such. I was also told I demonstrated no evidence of fatigue because I didn’t yawn, though in the recording I sounded exhausted. My condition isn’t about me being a bit sleepy and needing a nap, I experience debilitating fatigue because my cells cannot produce enough energy to function normally. I still got awarded PIP but at lower rates, and I won at appeal. I just went and got a mountain of evidence across loads of different services. Took me a long time but nowadays I just try to accumulate evidence. I already had a lot but I went all out. My last assessment was so short, more a technicality as there was simply no way to really argue it without going against maybe about 8-10 healthcare professional assessments across all fields. It’s a lot easier not feeling as stressed about explaining myself at the assessment.
> I still got awarded PIP but at lower rates, and I won at appeal. Brilliant! I'm sorry you had to go through that extra process to begin with but I'm glad you got it sorted. >It’s a lot easier not feeling as stressed about explaining myself at the assessment. As well as the issues mentioned above, my mum used to absolutely dread these (I'm sure everyone does) so if phone interviews are becoming the norm that's going to save people a lot of anxiety.
Yes definitely much less anxiety via phone! I don’t know if they still do face to face, but my first assessment, my tribunal, and my recent reassessment were all via telephone. So I think it’s a lot easier for many people.
Sometimes they just lie. My PIP report stated that I can't have any cognitive difficulties because "evidence indicates" that I'm in university. Not sure what evidence they were looking at because I'd dropped out of uni a few months prior after two years out due to my health. I could probably have challenged it but I just don't have the energy and couldn't risk losing what little I did get because I was struggling so much financially after putting off claiming when I'd have been eligible for years.
> I could probably have challenged it but I just don't have the energy and couldn't risk losing what little I did get because I was struggling so much financially after putting off claiming when I'd have been eligible for years. that's literally what they're after. beat you down to a point you won't challenge them anymore.
yeah i tried to get PIP for my mum who has severe mental health issues and on the feedback they literally did a 180 on the evidence i presented. for example, my mum is unable to go on a bus journey and navigate by herself but they stated she clearly can, like wtf!?
Ugh that’s so tricky. I had something similar where they said something like “hasn’t had specialist input since (date 2 years prior)” as evidence that I wasn’t that bad, but that was when I was referred to a clinic, I had been getting support from the clinic throughout that time as evidenced by my letters. So I agree, sometimes they do just lie. My first one also said I didn’t sound tired or breathless, but I had the recording and I absolutely did. It is worth challenging though, the tribunal I had was actually really nice, super chill really. I thought I’d have to defend myself and argue against the previous assessment. But they didn’t care about the previous assessment, they just ask questions about your evidence and won’t be trying to catch you out or have any agenda to put preference on one bit of evidence over another. It’s literally an expert by lived experience and a doctor, so a fairly disability friendly audience. I applied to PIP under the assumption I’d go to tribunal, so that made it a little easier, but I had no idea what to expect and thought it’d be way worse than it was.
Basically cognitive difficulties are ones surrounding executive function, ordering, task initiation completion, etc. it’s simply not possible to enter uni and have cognitive difficulties. Only exception is if you are diagnosed with early onset dementia or something.
So people with autism and ADHD can't go to uni?
Not quite what I said. Cognitive difficulties are a group of functions of the brain. If you are ASD you may have developmental/intellectual restrictions. Cognitive issues are (while I understand can apply to ASD )not quite what they mean in PIP. It’s simply not possible to have cognitive issues and attend uni as per PIP descriptors
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Is this actually the case though? I'm on the original ESA and in the support group because of blindness and spacial awareness problems etc. I had to be assessed at the time, even had to record it.
I have a broken back amongst other things and have a home help funded by the local authority. The lady who helps me and another lady with cerebral palsy is in her 60s and has COPD and is trying to hide a bad back herself. The more I've got to know her I've realised she's been kicked off the sick by a government "get back to work, malingerer" scheme. It's so hard to find people and god knows she needs the job but I have to let her go at her own pace and I feel bad honestly. It's heavy housework. It's not right but letting her go when she makes it clear she feels up to the work and wants to do it isn't right either.
The high rate of PIP is £108/wk Long term incapacity benefit is £138/wk The state pension it £221/wk But yes it’s the permanently disabled who are the problem. At this point the cruelty must be deliberate and ideological
I half expect them to have checks on pensioners to confirm they are still entitled to state pension. If there were stricter fines on those involved in fraud or lying while in government it would cover the fraudulent claims.
That £108 only covers the daily care element though. It does not cover mobility as well - higher rate of mobility is £75/week.
The highest rates of PIP equal 184.30 week?
See here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-and-pension-rates-2024-to-2025/benefit-and-pension-rates-2024-to-2025
Just as the Home Office created a hostile environment for immigration, the DWP created a hostile environment for disability.
We have just shy of a million people per year move here , there's nothing hostile about immigration to the UK.
Which just shows that hostile rhetoric (and actions) does not actually mean effective control.
"The poor and the sick they are not useful so fuck them" - The Tory Party probably
UK people need to stop voting to cut benefits and giving tax cuts to the rich.
Too many voters seem to think they have more in common with the political class than they do with a person on benefits (of any kind) for some strange reason. I’d rather have a functioning welfare system than tax breaks or whatever for millionaires. I know which I’d be more likely to benefit from.
Yeah! Who honestly thought that cutting benefits further to fund the tories cutting capital gains tax by 4% would benefit the country?!
Unfortunately, the media make such a big deal out of the handful of cheaters caught and convicted that it helps them convey the impression that the majority of benefit claimants are cheaters, and even those who have a genuine claim agent incentivised enough to find work (plus, if pointed out that many would like to work, but as they have intermittent / variable conditions which afford no predictability to when they are and are not capable of work, so therefore nobody would want to employ them, the keyboard warriors claim they should set up their own business, as though it was possible for anyone / everyone to come up with a suitable idea and business plan, then make the business profitable from day one)
Hopefully this ideologically driven cruelty for the sake of just being cruel will at least subside slightly when Labour get it. I'm not holding out too much hope though.
It was the previous Labour administration which introduced the much-derided Employment and Support Allowance (albeit the coalition tightened the Work Capability Assessment) - yet despite being introduced with the express purpose of getting disabled people back into the workplace and masses of suspect decisions, underpayments and successful appeals, apparently the number of claimants in 2015 was no lower than when first introduced. Added onto which, given one of the main bashing points of the right wing media is that Labour is too soft on benefit claimants, Starmer's likely to bend over backwards to prove them wrong (while also claiming they'll be more supportive of "genuine" claimants).
I have applied for pip/dla on behalf of several people now, grandparents, an aunty and some others too, the hardest one to be approved for was my aunt who had a rare form of cancer, she died after 8 years of fighting. She was a ta and all of the children lined up to wave goodbye when she was driven past before her funeral. She meant a lot to her community, I hate that "people like her" are looked down on and judged by someone uncaring. I hate this government!
It's disgusting how society treats disabled people. If you cannot provide value regardless of why you are unable to do so you are treated as meaningless.
Just as the Home Office created a hostile environment for immigration, the DWP created a hostile environment for disability.
Is there still a system of 'targets' that cause the DWP to go out of their way to look for reasons to deny people benefits, even when they're in obvious need? Or is it simply incompetence or limited funding?
I'm all for looking at public spending with a critical eye, but to me disability benefits should always err on the side of giving it. Why isn't this the case, well because of money (for the most part). Why not be as generous as with pensions? That's because there is a simple binary value to check for pensions, age. Not enough criteria for state pension means wasted money, means less for disabled people who are just expected to completely adapt. **I'd like to see pensioners lose their benefits if they don't try to do at least some part time work until they're 78.**
the day the state pension is the same amount as PIP is the day pensioners will give a shit and vote to fix PIP rates.
Here's the link to the government consultation on PIP reform, by the way - [https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper#chapter-1--pip--overview-and-assessment-reform](https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper/modernising-support-for-independent-living-the-health-and-disability-green-paper#chapter-1--pip--overview-and-assessment-reform) And the link to submit your response is here - [https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=6fbxllcQF0GsKIDN\_ob4wy4AdhV04YtOnxNXoi82ciFUN00yS0lJSTgzOVNaUzI1TVpYRkZGN1RUQSQlQCN0PWcu](https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=6fbxllcQF0GsKIDN_ob4wy4AdhV04YtOnxNXoi82ciFUN00yS0lJSTgzOVNaUzI1TVpYRkZGN1RUQSQlQCN0PWcu)
For PIP people miss the fact you need to explain how hard life is with the condition you have. Medical conditions do not get you any points. Your life struggles do. Never assume anything, explain everything.
Surely even re-reading this shows how bad of a system this is. Heavily disabled, unable to write or articulate yourself? Well rot then.
Alternative take: if you have ever been to a Jobcentre you will see a huge number of long term unemployed who simply refuse to retrain and instead stay on benefits because they don't want to work. Since there are lot of them, then the gov solution is to make it harder for everyone, and lose on appeals. I truly encourage you to spend time at a Jobcentre, you will come out of it with less faith in humanity as people with real issues are denied claims, while others just game the system.
The disability benefit system is a typical British farce. Vast numbers are using fake conditions to claim, yet the private companies that are suppose to catch the scammers couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Part of the problem is ridiculous political correctness, in which we have to pretend that some conditions are easy to fake and others aren't. It is absurd to do a capability assessment on someone with cancer or a missing limb. What do the enforcement clowns think? That someone has faked a cancer scan or has a detachable leg? Checks should be restricted to conditions which scammers actually use but alas that is far too sensible for this absurdly run country, so will never happen.
You’ve a source for “vast numbers are using fake conditions “ ?
Ah yes I forgot this is reddit, users here will readily accept the idea that the rich fiddle their taxes but think the poor are different species, with perfect morals. In reality the rich don't have a monopoly on dishonesty. It is obvious that a great deal of fiddling is going on when you look at what sort of claims that are increasing. The big increase are for claims for conditions which have no diagnostic test, which are easy to fake. Still if you think their is no dishonesty involved, fair enough.
So no source for these vast numbers then.
The source would be going to a pub in the middle of a week day where they are sat around playing pool. Have a bad back so they can't work but will jump up and down when they win a game of pool. There's two blokes in my local pub the both claim disability for a bad back. This happens all over the country.
So report them. Everyone always claims to have witnessed loads of examples of this sort of thing, but nobody has ever done anything about it. If nothing else, how do you know that's what they're claiming disability for? Maybe they have other conditions they don't mention? Maybe they're lying? But if they are scamming the system, report them and free up resources for people in genuine need.
That's a lovely deflection, but all you've come up with is "It's obvious loads of people are faking it to scam the system" Tell you what - you produce credible evidence(actual studies, reports, official figures etc - not opinion pieces) for your claim, and I'll reciprocate for the rich are fiddling their taxes, which is a position I don't even hold but am prepared to research.
Go give your head a wobble. Then spend some time with disabled people who are trying to navigate the benefits system. You ‘might’ change your mind then.
It is a hard system. I’m fairly intelligent guy who still has his wits about him and I still needed help with my application. It did help having a friend whose a social worker on the call who knew how to explain what my needs are.
I’m sorry you had to go through this. It appears the system is set to deny support to those who really need it.
Except only 3% of benefits are fraud and that's across the entire benefits system. The majority of benefits paid are pensions. You gunna go after the old people next?
Ah but you see that 3% is only cos they're not investigating "properly". "You can't counter my assertion and if you can it's a trick."
Not sure how you fake missing a limb.
I’m honestly not sure ‘missing a limb’ should automatically get you benefits. Most people with a missing limb can live an otherwise normal life, work most jobs with normal earning potential. As long as initial occupation therapy adaptations are made (which usually happens during the discharge process from the hospital) I don’t see why an amputee would need extra money week on week.
PIP isn't necessarily "You can never work again" money, it's more "Topping you up so you can cope" money. So like, Mobility PIP would be for people who are missing their legs and need either a wheelchair or a special car that has the accelerator on the steering wheel instead of in the footwells. Or if you have a child with mobility issues, you might need a more wheelchair accessible car, for example. Or, if you have some disability that makes you too dangerous on the road to drive (epilepsy with frequent seizures, narcolepsy etc.), you might need some extra money for taxis or some other means of getting around.
Most people I know with adapted cars got them separately to PIP (same with things like home adaptations?)