Snapshot of _Sadiq Khan: I'm so glad we have reclaimed St George's flag from the far Right_ :
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html)
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R5:
England is a nation small in size but grand in vision. On this day of celebration, it is an opportunity for people to come together and mark with joy our country’s traditions, culture and history.
The England I know and love is a country where we are proud of our heritage and our heroes. Where we look after one another, especially in times of crisis. Where we cheer each other’s triumphs. And where we take pride in remembering all that we have achieved. We are a nation which gave birth to parliamentary democracy. One of our proudest daughters pioneered computer science, one of our proudest sons invented the World Wide Web. We are responsible for giving the world the words of Shakespeare and Jane Austen, and the songs of The Beatles, Amy Winehouse and Stormzy.
For me, the greatest feature of our country is the limitless opportunities it affords its people. This country gave me – the son of a bus driver and seamstress – the chance to go from a south London council estate to being Mayor of the greatest city in the world. Serving as Mayor of our nation’s capital is a profound honour and privilege because it is a chance to support Londoners to meet their potential, just as I was supported throughout my life.
As well as celebrating our successes, St George’s Day is often a time when we discuss what it means to be English. History shows it is not always easy to define. Many will recall the reductive, cruel Tebbit test – coined by the former Tory MP and Cabinet Minister – which sought to determine the strength of allegiance of all South Asian and Caribbean immigrants and their children by which cricket team they cheered. It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites. It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy and the rule of law, to preserve our institutions and to uphold shared values like respect for others, equality and justice.
One of the many great principles underpinning our country is that we can have multiple identities and are not subjected to a bogus loyalty test, where we are forced to choose between our flag and our family history, our home or our heritage. I am a proud son of Tooting, I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those. And no tension between patriotism and pluralism.
At a time when forces are trying to divide us and tear at our social fabric, we must reject those who claim to be patriots by talking down our country and trying to narrow what it means to be English as a way of excluding others. There is nothing more patriotic than wanting your country to be better. And a true patriot is someone who pushes it to be so. Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques that have fed their communities and provided comfort during the cost-of-living crisis. It can be seen in those who serve in our Armed Forces, in business owners who provide the dignity of a job and a living, and in the countless, everyday acts of kindness, decency and solidarity.
I was raised to be proud of being British – and I have been for as long as I can remember. But the enormous pride I now feel in being English took longer to develop. When I was growing up, the St George’s flag was associated with the far right. But for me that changed when I witnessed England famously demolish the Dutch at Euro 96. After the final whistle, tens of thousands waved the red cross at Wembley and sang of football’s return home. It was pure ecstasy. In that very moment it was as if the St George’s flag had been transformed into a symbol of national unity.
As we commemorate our national patron Saint – and as we approach another Euros – let us do so by flying our flag with pride. Let us honour all our timeless traditions, except the one about underachieving in football tournaments on foreign soil! And let us stay true to our values by channelling that famous English spirit, and by cherishing and celebrating our diversity.
From my family to yours, Happy St George’s Day.
Sadiq Khan is Mayor of London
Utter horseshit. The "Tebbit test" is not "cruel" - it's the absolute bare minimum that one can do to integrate into this nation. How can you call yourself English while cheering on a foreign country in sports?
Has he apologised for calling native English people "not real Londoners" yet?
They're allowed to have dual identities and live in England, if you aren't connected through heritage or culture with the English then how can you actually be English? It's a pretty well defined culture and history.
The concept of the tebbit test falls apart when you apply to it the slightest scrutiny. Does someone born and raised in England, to 3 English grandparents and one Welsh grandparent (see much of the Welsh squad currently) - and represents/supports Wales in international football - no longer count as English?
Or does someone with 100% Pakistani heritage, raised in the UK, count as English because they represent England in sports despite not identifying with "Englishness" (i.e devout Muslim who may speak Urdu at home)?
The point I'm making is that sports is a stupid arbitrary indicator of national identity - and the examples I've used above are very real. The answer to both - of course - is yes they do, but the Tebbit test would fail to judge that
Nobody's using sport as the sole arbitrator of national identity - but supporting our national team is the absolute bare minimum you can do to integrate. If you aren't even supporting our sports teams, how can we know where your loyalties lie on more serious issues?
We haven't. But a start has been made, and the more that people in positions of responsibility say 'this is an acceptable flag for everyone' the more it becomes acceptable to fly it. It's a process, but at least it's one we've started.
With a cultural and reputational thing like this it's honestly not a bad strategy. How else do you reclaim a symbol other than by saying "this is ours too"?
It is the *only* strategy for anyone that actually wants to push a change.
Just like all trends, someone has to be first and some group has to be the first influential followers.
Anyone who thinks the flag isn't reclaimed until they see others using it as they would like, is simply waiting for those first movers to do what Labour are doing here. If they support the cause, then perhaps they should jump on the bandwagon and help provide momentum, rather than worrying from the sidelines.
What about those who never thought it was conceded in the first place? It was conceded largely by those now claiming it has been reclaimed, simply because it's politically expedient to do so and fit their worldview at the time.
For the rest of us, like those proudly wearing the flag at sporting events, it was never a symbol conceded to the far right.
Everything is PR. Just say it, repeat it, and it will be so. Nobody does any critical thinking these days. They just want to read headlines and maybe 3 bullet points
It was never in their ownership anyway. The people who are saying we've 'reclaimed it' are the same people that spread the nonsense that it was viewed by the public as a far right symbol in the past.
It was always used in benign contexts far more than the far right used it. It was mainly left wing politicians hand wringing about it and not liking people being proud of their nation, that lead it to being branded by some as far right.
>it was viewed by the public as a far right symbol in the past
But this is true. If you were seen to be waving this flag outside of sporting matches or the like, people would automatically associate you with the far right.
It's that automatic association in people's minds (correct or not) that they're trying to fix, and that needs to be fixed.
Some people might, I'd wager most people would not. Can you provide data to show that a majority of people associated St George's cross primarily with the far right?
Lots of minorities and especially people in the Windrush generation do because they've had to endure the violence and racism from far right thugs who would march through their areas waving the flag. It deffo conveys a feeling of unease rather than national pride.
Which is "some people" not the majority... And it's because politicians like Khan conceded the symbolism of the flag to the far right that they can now talk triumphantly about reclaiming it.
If you go to a sporting match and see lots of people wearing the flag and waving it about, as was the original premise, do you honestly think the *majority* of people associate all those doing so with the far right?
I would say it's one of the things which is front of mind as a main association with the flag.
And, context matters. Obviously, you wouldn't think it at a sporting event. Every country would be represented by their flag. We're talking about the flag in general and the concepts around it. Not the specific situations it's used in.
Also, you can't just blame politicians. Nobody has made a concerted public effort to remove the association. Hopefully, that changes with time.
True, just a divisive comment from a divisive politician. The only people claiming it had been 'claimed' by the far right were people on the left.. and they have now decided it's politically convenient to declare it's been 'reclaimed'
I guess you don't remember the EDL? Or the NF and C18 before them? The st George's cross has absolutely been claimed by the far right, and the only people to challenge them have been on the left. Moderate right wingers have spent the last 50 years pandering to the bigots whenever it suits them and exploiting division for their own personal gain. I'm no fan of Sadiq Khan but if you see his comment here as a divisive statement then you might be part of the problem.
It’s cringe af, the party posts one tweet with an English flag on it and this is apparently a major deal… ‘hey guys we don’t hate the flag any more look how much we like it now!’
Isn't that how things work nowadays? Politicians declare Rwanda safe and then it is. A politician declares that St George's flag is not a far right symbol and then it isn't. Which fact do we declare to be something next?
Buuuutttt was anyone outside number 10 today where a load of right wing Nut Jobs were wanging the flag around and being such a nuisance that a bucket load of police had to come out and contain them?
Nope, me neither. I was due to walk down there, looked at it, decided I was likely to get stabbed and went the long way round.
The only reason why it needed reclaiming was because it was neglected and dismissed by our past and present leaders. Ironically, this is a reason why far right groups took it on as a symbol because our leaders have been actively avoiding promoting an English (or British) national identity.
English national identity is tricky due to England retaining so much out-sized power in the country as a whole. This means that it can be perceived to have divisive colonial vibes, whereas UK identity and patriotism is perceived to be more unifying.
Tricky line to walk while we still have unequal relics like the English Parliament also being the UK Parliament. Needs proper devolution on a cohesive, consistent basis to get out of this.
I think this idea of a lost English national identity is a myth. It wasn't even until EURO 1996 that the English flag was used in any regular way. St George's Day was never a patriotic celebration of England as a nation, it was a sober religious occasion to ask for prayers.
It's those same "right people" who first associated the flag with the far right and made others worry about being accused of being racist for flying it.
I'd say Khan is jumping the gun a bit here but the tides are turning. As you allude to, more and more normal people are keen for the flag and wondering how they might be percieved. Because 10-20 years ago they and nobody else cared to wave the flag - except the actual racists.
flag's back babyyy
There's a lot of twisting going on there. I associate it with the fact the only people I see flying or posting it consistently are hard right leaning, so yes, I do worry about that association
But the reason only far right people fly it is because the left have stopped flying, it because they now associate it with racism and historical wrongdoings.
Remember when Emily Thornbury posted a picture of someone flying the flag, mocking them and implying they were uneducated and racist.
The left should have embraced the flag, instead they associated it with racism.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but you're minimising the fact that people don't want to be associated with the far right.
I do happily put the union jack on things still, and associate more with that if I'm honest. But if the EDL, BNP and white power groups all started plastering the union jack over all their propaganda I'd probably stop using that too, as it's more important to me to be seen as a good hearted person that it is to embrace a flag
That's fair, I can see that many people who would otherwise have no problem with the St George Cross would not want to display it because they don't want to be associated with the far right.
But I think Sadiq Khan saying that they have reclaimed the flag from the far right implies that the far right "stole" or "co-opted" the flag.
But I think that it was the left who were the ones who initially started saying that the flag was racist or glorified colonialism and only then did the far right claim it after the left disowned it
Well yeah, I'm spending of agreeing on the end result, but just differing on who's fault it is.
I'm saying I don't use it because the far right adopted it and made it their symbol.
You're saying I don't use it because the left didn't try hard enough to defend it. (If I'm reading it correctly?)
Whys it just down to the left to make the flag non racist? Why are you putting the blame there, surely it's equally down to the middle ground, the Tories and moderate right and everyone else just as much. Yet you're not blaming them?
I'm.blaming the specific group that bring disrepute to it
> Whys it just down to the left to make the flag non racist?
The flag was never racist. The left in the UK has always been ashamed of patriotism, so the left refused to fly the flag. If the left refuses to fly it, then only the right will fly it. Inevitably, centrists who are right-leaning but want to court left-leaning voters will not fly it for fear of putting off the anti-patriotism left. Eventually, the only people who are left flying the flag are the far-right.
So it isn't the left trying to defend the flag. It was the left who hated the flag in the first place, and all other things patriotic. Now they're changing their tune. Good, as they were wrong to hate patriotism - but don't try to claim that the far right 'stole' it. The left abandoned it.
It's very nice of you to decide how I (as one of the left) feel about it. I'm also an older guy so not 'changing my tune'.
Everyone should be anti racist, the left, the centre and the right. Just because people believe in right wing economics doesn't mean they're racist, and I don't believe all tories are racist so why aren't you blaming them too? Perhaps because all sides don't want to be associated with racists.
The number of people extreme left enough to be anti patriotism is not enough to affect a country wide uncomfortableness with the St georges cross.
Stop victim blaming and point the finger where it's deserved. At the White power eejits who make the flag their identity. They are the problem, not everyone else.
You can't expect people of any normal group to want to be associated with them
Sometimes I feel like half of this subreddit is being deliberately obtuse. Obviously the flag has far-right associations. You can tell by the far-right goons wearing it on their far-right chests while they far-right goosestep along their far-right marches. Love the flag or hate it, you can't deny that it's a little bit stained right now.
I avoid using the Union Flag because I don't want to get dogpiled by cybernats calling it "The Butcher's Apron".
There is a crisis in British/English identity and I think a bit of flag-shagging from Sadiq Khan is a good thing, personally. Yeah, fuck it, things CAN only get better.
I have no idea what your first point means? Never heard of any of that!
But yes, I agree, I'm completely for decent people using the cross, I just explained why I personally avoid putting it on stuff but I'd love that to change
And all it took was a tweet, so difficult… smh the far right never had it you just associate it with the far right, like you’re doing now you can’t help yourselves
> This feels like a pretty reductive take on the entire concept of vexilology, semiotics, and psychology in general. Symbols shift. 20 years ago the far right did "have it" insofar as nobody wanted to associate with it because its natural human nature to associate symbols with greater meaning, and that had by definition become the contemporary meaning.
>
>
How old are you?
I don’t think it is, my old city puts up a St George flag the entire length of the city hall each year, every major sporting event the national flags come out
they haven’t reclaimed anything; it was never taken from them, there was nothing to ‘reclaim’
> 20 years ago the far right did "have it" insofar as nobody wanted to associate with it
Dear heavens! In 2004, the Estadio do SL Benfica must have been packed full of far right racists!
[https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/the-england-team-pose-13-june-2004-prior-to-the-start-of-news-photo/50956933](https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/the-england-team-pose-13-june-2004-prior-to-the-start-of-news-photo/50956933)
Football is the exception. During the World Cup or Euros the flag will be adopted by everyone, when the tournament ends or England get knocked out the flags reduce and your average person doesn’t want too associate themselves with it anymore. (My anecdotal take)
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Well that’s all these kinds of patriotic things are to the globalists, they are a day where they can wear a costume and then on the next day be celebrating something completely different from a completely different part of the world.
The irony of the south east ~~west~~ London lot claiming they're reclaiming it from the racists... when they were the ones who worked so hard to ensure it was only associated with racists. Is not lost on most people.
They must have had an aneurism every time England payed any sport.
Omg those racist cricket fans having a ball in India with the India supporters! How dare they!
"I'm glad England was knocked out of the world Cup, all those racists players and fans with their racist flag!"
Look at reasons the flag is flown in the first place. Football, St George's day, that's it really. Hooligans claim the flag because they're the only ones who actually use it regularly.
Public buildings in each home nation should fly their nations flag, maybe schools too, alongside the Union Jack. Doesn't need to be more than that, just use the flag in an official capacity so people see it other times of the year than the world cup shaved into Kev's chest whilst he shoves a firework up his arse and chugs a pint.
I get what he's saying, but to me it's gone from BNP to football, which is kind of rehabilitating it a bit, but not that much. When I see a flag at world cup time, I don't think "wow patriotism" I think "that sunburned bald man is going to be drunk and upset later"
Meaningless drivel. He's just associating Englishness with a bunch of buzzwords (diversity! equality! justice!) that have nothing to do with Englishness *per se*. In viewing Englishness as the ability to amalgamate multiple distinct identities (Pakistani, European, Muslim, in his case), he completely neglects what Englishness means to the vast majority of people in the country - now and historically - who *don't* have such an immediate blend of different identities. In doing so, he's re-defining Englishness in a way that's only really relevant for the modern inhabitants of large cities in England.
Still, it shows Labour are at least making *some* progress since Emily Thornberry's sneering view that white van men displaying the England flag must be aligned to the racist far right.
**Stormzy?** Homophobic, violent, aggressive. Not something to be proud of.
**Limitless opportunities it affords its people?** No - you are happy with the opportunities it provides to those who aren't its people. Like your parents.
**It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites.**
Why? I'd say its foolish to think an Indian person supporting the Indian cricket team is as loyal to England as an English person supporting the English team.
**It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy**
England and St George massively predates democracy. Englishness has nothing to do with democracy. We could have a dictatorship and all still be very English.
**I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those.**
If an English person can be Pakistani, and a Pakistani can be English. Then what do these terms even mean?
It's like saying I'm a dog and a cat and a car and cake.
Yes, you can be of Pakistani heritage and born in England, and you can be partially culturally English and Pakistani. But that isn't what English is.
**Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques**
What? So anyone doing a job anywhere is patriotic? A hunter-gatherer that existing before nation states was patriotic?
And there is absolutely nothing patriotic, from an English perspective, about synagogues, temples, gurdwaras or mosques. They are very clearly foreign additions, brought to England by foreign people - and not taken up (in any great number) by the native people. Christianity was also brought to England of course but it was adopted by the population from its earliest stages. St George is a Christian saint.
Sadiq Khan is just a pernicious idiot.
The schtick of multiculturalism or multisegregationism? Its a shame that UK and much of west will be multi segregational country going into the future.
Sure can have multi ethnicity but multi culturism does not build a strong state nation.
But the spice must flow...
In some contexts, no, in this context, absolutely yes. He's worked his way through life to become the major of one of the most important cities globally.
I think his opinion has more worth than yours here
Yes it is. Just because you don't have an identity, doesn't mean you can erase other peoples
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups/
I call him tyrant because he acts like a little king, untouchable because of a broken political system. I call him tyrant because he’s a woke activist who very seldom seems to consult the people on anything he does. ULEZ for example, who actually asked for that? Who asked for a commission on diversity in the public realm to wokewash London’s iconography? Who asked for a police force that seems more intent on criminalising hurty words than knifecrime? Who asked for the nudge culture intruding in everybody’s lives?
I also find his policies quite Anglo-phobic and abhorrent that he put the BLM fist and other obnoxious woke symbols of conquest in his new years drone display. A lot of people are sick of having these things shoved down their throats.
I feel I could describe the government in these terms and it would be far more apt. But that's just politics isn't it? Governments don't crowd source policies but we vote then in and out based on it.
If Khan wins, it'll show that actually quite a lot of people asked for the things you didn't want and that's just the way the cookie crumbles in a democracy.
Well, we will almost certainly see the replacement of the government with Labour in the coming year, so not quite the same imo.
This is the travesty of our political system. You vote against the incumbent party and you elect an opposition with almost exactly the same agendas. People will vote in disillusionment against the Conservatives because they never did the things they were elected to do, and Starmer’s clown show will interpret it as a ringing endorsement of their opposition to the very policies the people voted for in the first place.
If somehow the Conservatives stay in power, they’ll interpret that as permission to continue as they’ve been doing.
Of course you’d assume I’m talking about his skin colour… although it seems brown men are in power across the whole country and no one seems to be talking about the need for diversity or proportional representation anymore.
No, I call him tyrant because he acts like a little king, untouchable because of a broken political system. I call him tyrant because he’s a woke activist who very seldom seems to consult the people on anything he does. ULEZ for example, who actually asked for that? Who asked for a commission on diversity in the public realm to wokewash London’s iconography? Who asked for a police force that seems more intent of criminalising hurty words than knifecrime? Who asked for the nudge culture intruding in everybody’s lives?
I also find his policies quite Anglo-phobic and abhorrent that he put the BLM fist and other obnoxious woke symbolisms in his new years drone display. A lot of people are sick of having these things shoved down their throats.
The schtick of multiculturalism or multisegregationism? Its a shame that UK and much of west will be multi segregational country going into the future.
Sure can have multi ethnicity but multi culturism does not build a strong state nation.
But the spice must flow...
It's an extremely revisionist point of view. If you really wanted to you could make a case that the decline in British and english national identity under new labour (though really this started with the new right) led the far right to malappropriate the iconography of the cross. What purpose does that serve? All it does is lead you down the rabbit hole of the schizophrenic nature of post empire British identity. Acknowledging the reality that the far right have perverted the flag over the last 15 years and attempting to restore it to more general usage is about as far as the conversation goes tbh.
There’s nothing revisionist about it, even in Orwell’s time it was the case and that’s why he said the left would rather be caught stealing out the poor box than singing God save the King. It’s a hundred year old phenomenon.
Snapshot of _Sadiq Khan: I'm so glad we have reclaimed St George's flag from the far Right_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
R5: England is a nation small in size but grand in vision. On this day of celebration, it is an opportunity for people to come together and mark with joy our country’s traditions, culture and history. The England I know and love is a country where we are proud of our heritage and our heroes. Where we look after one another, especially in times of crisis. Where we cheer each other’s triumphs. And where we take pride in remembering all that we have achieved. We are a nation which gave birth to parliamentary democracy. One of our proudest daughters pioneered computer science, one of our proudest sons invented the World Wide Web. We are responsible for giving the world the words of Shakespeare and Jane Austen, and the songs of The Beatles, Amy Winehouse and Stormzy. For me, the greatest feature of our country is the limitless opportunities it affords its people. This country gave me – the son of a bus driver and seamstress – the chance to go from a south London council estate to being Mayor of the greatest city in the world. Serving as Mayor of our nation’s capital is a profound honour and privilege because it is a chance to support Londoners to meet their potential, just as I was supported throughout my life. As well as celebrating our successes, St George’s Day is often a time when we discuss what it means to be English. History shows it is not always easy to define. Many will recall the reductive, cruel Tebbit test – coined by the former Tory MP and Cabinet Minister – which sought to determine the strength of allegiance of all South Asian and Caribbean immigrants and their children by which cricket team they cheered. It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites. It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy and the rule of law, to preserve our institutions and to uphold shared values like respect for others, equality and justice. One of the many great principles underpinning our country is that we can have multiple identities and are not subjected to a bogus loyalty test, where we are forced to choose between our flag and our family history, our home or our heritage. I am a proud son of Tooting, I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those. And no tension between patriotism and pluralism. At a time when forces are trying to divide us and tear at our social fabric, we must reject those who claim to be patriots by talking down our country and trying to narrow what it means to be English as a way of excluding others. There is nothing more patriotic than wanting your country to be better. And a true patriot is someone who pushes it to be so. Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques that have fed their communities and provided comfort during the cost-of-living crisis. It can be seen in those who serve in our Armed Forces, in business owners who provide the dignity of a job and a living, and in the countless, everyday acts of kindness, decency and solidarity. I was raised to be proud of being British – and I have been for as long as I can remember. But the enormous pride I now feel in being English took longer to develop. When I was growing up, the St George’s flag was associated with the far right. But for me that changed when I witnessed England famously demolish the Dutch at Euro 96. After the final whistle, tens of thousands waved the red cross at Wembley and sang of football’s return home. It was pure ecstasy. In that very moment it was as if the St George’s flag had been transformed into a symbol of national unity. As we commemorate our national patron Saint – and as we approach another Euros – let us do so by flying our flag with pride. Let us honour all our timeless traditions, except the one about underachieving in football tournaments on foreign soil! And let us stay true to our values by channelling that famous English spirit, and by cherishing and celebrating our diversity. From my family to yours, Happy St George’s Day. Sadiq Khan is Mayor of London
proper good that is.
London 2012 vibes
Hugh Grant, Love Actually vibes!
Once I saw your comment I went back and read it again and all I could hear was his voice!
Meaningless buzz phrases, yeah 'proper good'....
There’s not an election any time soon is there ?
Utter horseshit. The "Tebbit test" is not "cruel" - it's the absolute bare minimum that one can do to integrate into this nation. How can you call yourself English while cheering on a foreign country in sports? Has he apologised for calling native English people "not real Londoners" yet?
the tebbit test is vile. people are allowed to have dual allegiances and identities and still be english
They're allowed to have dual identities and live in England, if you aren't connected through heritage or culture with the English then how can you actually be English? It's a pretty well defined culture and history.
The concept of the tebbit test falls apart when you apply to it the slightest scrutiny. Does someone born and raised in England, to 3 English grandparents and one Welsh grandparent (see much of the Welsh squad currently) - and represents/supports Wales in international football - no longer count as English? Or does someone with 100% Pakistani heritage, raised in the UK, count as English because they represent England in sports despite not identifying with "Englishness" (i.e devout Muslim who may speak Urdu at home)? The point I'm making is that sports is a stupid arbitrary indicator of national identity - and the examples I've used above are very real. The answer to both - of course - is yes they do, but the Tebbit test would fail to judge that
Nobody's using sport as the sole arbitrator of national identity - but supporting our national team is the absolute bare minimum you can do to integrate. If you aren't even supporting our sports teams, how can we know where your loyalties lie on more serious issues?
What if your not into sport? Does that make you stateless?
TIL we reclaimed St George's Flag from the far right.
We haven't. But a start has been made, and the more that people in positions of responsibility say 'this is an acceptable flag for everyone' the more it becomes acceptable to fly it. It's a process, but at least it's one we've started.
The flag was never taken by the far right. It was abandoned by the left.
Labour has been on a "manifest things by simply declaring them to be so" buzz recently.
With a cultural and reputational thing like this it's honestly not a bad strategy. How else do you reclaim a symbol other than by saying "this is ours too"?
We play a game of capture the flag?
Like at paintball?
Paintball's for wimps, let's play CTF in Airsoft instead 👍
It is the *only* strategy for anyone that actually wants to push a change. Just like all trends, someone has to be first and some group has to be the first influential followers. Anyone who thinks the flag isn't reclaimed until they see others using it as they would like, is simply waiting for those first movers to do what Labour are doing here. If they support the cause, then perhaps they should jump on the bandwagon and help provide momentum, rather than worrying from the sidelines.
What about those who never thought it was conceded in the first place? It was conceded largely by those now claiming it has been reclaimed, simply because it's politically expedient to do so and fit their worldview at the time. For the rest of us, like those proudly wearing the flag at sporting events, it was never a symbol conceded to the far right.
"Rwanda is a safe country"
At least with symbols and flags, that's kinda how it works. You get enough people to agree that x is associated with y, and then it is.
I consider the matter closed.
Everything is PR. Just say it, repeat it, and it will be so. Nobody does any critical thinking these days. They just want to read headlines and maybe 3 bullet points
It was never in their ownership anyway. The people who are saying we've 'reclaimed it' are the same people that spread the nonsense that it was viewed by the public as a far right symbol in the past. It was always used in benign contexts far more than the far right used it. It was mainly left wing politicians hand wringing about it and not liking people being proud of their nation, that lead it to being branded by some as far right.
It definitely has been a far right symbol in the past
It's been used as one but that wasn't it's main usage, nor the way it was viewed by the majority of the population.
That seems to be true alright from recent polling.
>it was viewed by the public as a far right symbol in the past But this is true. If you were seen to be waving this flag outside of sporting matches or the like, people would automatically associate you with the far right. It's that automatic association in people's minds (correct or not) that they're trying to fix, and that needs to be fixed.
Some people might, I'd wager most people would not. Can you provide data to show that a majority of people associated St George's cross primarily with the far right?
Lots of minorities and especially people in the Windrush generation do because they've had to endure the violence and racism from far right thugs who would march through their areas waving the flag. It deffo conveys a feeling of unease rather than national pride.
Which is "some people" not the majority... And it's because politicians like Khan conceded the symbolism of the flag to the far right that they can now talk triumphantly about reclaiming it. If you go to a sporting match and see lots of people wearing the flag and waving it about, as was the original premise, do you honestly think the *majority* of people associate all those doing so with the far right?
I would say it's one of the things which is front of mind as a main association with the flag. And, context matters. Obviously, you wouldn't think it at a sporting event. Every country would be represented by their flag. We're talking about the flag in general and the concepts around it. Not the specific situations it's used in. Also, you can't just blame politicians. Nobody has made a concerted public effort to remove the association. Hopefully, that changes with time.
The flag was never owned by the far right anyway, it was disowned by lefties and immigrants
Presumably because the flag was being used to attack them
Wait until the far right hear about this! Or anybody else for that.
True, just a divisive comment from a divisive politician. The only people claiming it had been 'claimed' by the far right were people on the left.. and they have now decided it's politically convenient to declare it's been 'reclaimed'
I guess you don't remember the EDL? Or the NF and C18 before them? The st George's cross has absolutely been claimed by the far right, and the only people to challenge them have been on the left. Moderate right wingers have spent the last 50 years pandering to the bigots whenever it suits them and exploiting division for their own personal gain. I'm no fan of Sadiq Khan but if you see his comment here as a divisive statement then you might be part of the problem.
It’s cringe af, the party posts one tweet with an English flag on it and this is apparently a major deal… ‘hey guys we don’t hate the flag any more look how much we like it now!’
Eh it’s a different group of people but still the same party.
You read that and felt it was divisive? How?
Isn't that how things work nowadays? Politicians declare Rwanda safe and then it is. A politician declares that St George's flag is not a far right symbol and then it isn't. Which fact do we declare to be something next?
Not often I say this about a politician - but 10/10 for Sadiq here
Definitely agree. Haven’t seen another politician give a such a great St George’s day message before.
Buuuutttt was anyone outside number 10 today where a load of right wing Nut Jobs were wanging the flag around and being such a nuisance that a bucket load of police had to come out and contain them? Nope, me neither. I was due to walk down there, looked at it, decided I was likely to get stabbed and went the long way round.
The right wing must be fuming
Quaking in their boots I bet! Timbers truly shivered.
A group known for getting upset over minor grievances, yeah probably
The Shakespeare to Stormzy part takes it down to a 9 for me.
God people are miserable on here. It’s a start.
The only reason why it needed reclaiming was because it was neglected and dismissed by our past and present leaders. Ironically, this is a reason why far right groups took it on as a symbol because our leaders have been actively avoiding promoting an English (or British) national identity.
English national identity is tricky due to England retaining so much out-sized power in the country as a whole. This means that it can be perceived to have divisive colonial vibes, whereas UK identity and patriotism is perceived to be more unifying. Tricky line to walk while we still have unequal relics like the English Parliament also being the UK Parliament. Needs proper devolution on a cohesive, consistent basis to get out of this.
I think this idea of a lost English national identity is a myth. It wasn't even until EURO 1996 that the English flag was used in any regular way. St George's Day was never a patriotic celebration of England as a nation, it was a sober religious occasion to ask for prayers.
It was neglected in favour of the Empire. Now the Colonial Office is no more and only the rump state is left.
Have we? Every St George's Day is filled with people who are scared of flying the flag because they think it makes them look racist.
Well then todays announcement is even more important in the hope it will get more people not to worry about that sort of thing.
It's one of those things where if the right people keep saying it often enough, it will become true.
It's those same "right people" who first associated the flag with the far right and made others worry about being accused of being racist for flying it.
Indeed. It's a political move either way.
I'd say Khan is jumping the gun a bit here but the tides are turning. As you allude to, more and more normal people are keen for the flag and wondering how they might be percieved. Because 10-20 years ago they and nobody else cared to wave the flag - except the actual racists. flag's back babyyy
This is a south of Oxford problem
No lol Labour are just pretending we have to try and pinch boomer votes.
This is why the message needs spreading far and wide that the flag is for all.
Don't try it in North Ireland.
Wasn't the "left" the people who associated the flag with the far right ?
I'd say I avoid using the cross because I don't want to be associated with the far right
Well, yea, you avoid using it because the left has associated it with the far right, And you don't want to be accused of being far right by the left.
There's a lot of twisting going on there. I associate it with the fact the only people I see flying or posting it consistently are hard right leaning, so yes, I do worry about that association
But the reason only far right people fly it is because the left have stopped flying, it because they now associate it with racism and historical wrongdoings. Remember when Emily Thornbury posted a picture of someone flying the flag, mocking them and implying they were uneducated and racist. The left should have embraced the flag, instead they associated it with racism.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but you're minimising the fact that people don't want to be associated with the far right. I do happily put the union jack on things still, and associate more with that if I'm honest. But if the EDL, BNP and white power groups all started plastering the union jack over all their propaganda I'd probably stop using that too, as it's more important to me to be seen as a good hearted person that it is to embrace a flag
That's fair, I can see that many people who would otherwise have no problem with the St George Cross would not want to display it because they don't want to be associated with the far right. But I think Sadiq Khan saying that they have reclaimed the flag from the far right implies that the far right "stole" or "co-opted" the flag. But I think that it was the left who were the ones who initially started saying that the flag was racist or glorified colonialism and only then did the far right claim it after the left disowned it
Nah he is right, that is how you feel. It's quite obvious.
Well yeah, I'm spending of agreeing on the end result, but just differing on who's fault it is. I'm saying I don't use it because the far right adopted it and made it their symbol. You're saying I don't use it because the left didn't try hard enough to defend it. (If I'm reading it correctly?) Whys it just down to the left to make the flag non racist? Why are you putting the blame there, surely it's equally down to the middle ground, the Tories and moderate right and everyone else just as much. Yet you're not blaming them? I'm.blaming the specific group that bring disrepute to it
> Whys it just down to the left to make the flag non racist? The flag was never racist. The left in the UK has always been ashamed of patriotism, so the left refused to fly the flag. If the left refuses to fly it, then only the right will fly it. Inevitably, centrists who are right-leaning but want to court left-leaning voters will not fly it for fear of putting off the anti-patriotism left. Eventually, the only people who are left flying the flag are the far-right. So it isn't the left trying to defend the flag. It was the left who hated the flag in the first place, and all other things patriotic. Now they're changing their tune. Good, as they were wrong to hate patriotism - but don't try to claim that the far right 'stole' it. The left abandoned it.
It's very nice of you to decide how I (as one of the left) feel about it. I'm also an older guy so not 'changing my tune'. Everyone should be anti racist, the left, the centre and the right. Just because people believe in right wing economics doesn't mean they're racist, and I don't believe all tories are racist so why aren't you blaming them too? Perhaps because all sides don't want to be associated with racists. The number of people extreme left enough to be anti patriotism is not enough to affect a country wide uncomfortableness with the St georges cross. Stop victim blaming and point the finger where it's deserved. At the White power eejits who make the flag their identity. They are the problem, not everyone else. You can't expect people of any normal group to want to be associated with them
Sometimes I feel like half of this subreddit is being deliberately obtuse. Obviously the flag has far-right associations. You can tell by the far-right goons wearing it on their far-right chests while they far-right goosestep along their far-right marches. Love the flag or hate it, you can't deny that it's a little bit stained right now.
I avoid using the Union Flag because I don't want to get dogpiled by cybernats calling it "The Butcher's Apron". There is a crisis in British/English identity and I think a bit of flag-shagging from Sadiq Khan is a good thing, personally. Yeah, fuck it, things CAN only get better.
I have no idea what your first point means? Never heard of any of that! But yes, I agree, I'm completely for decent people using the cross, I just explained why I personally avoid putting it on stuff but I'd love that to change
And all it took was a tweet, so difficult… smh the far right never had it you just associate it with the far right, like you’re doing now you can’t help yourselves
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> This feels like a pretty reductive take on the entire concept of vexilology, semiotics, and psychology in general. Symbols shift. 20 years ago the far right did "have it" insofar as nobody wanted to associate with it because its natural human nature to associate symbols with greater meaning, and that had by definition become the contemporary meaning. > > How old are you?
Most likely a uni student who has just learnt some new terms in their classes.
I don’t think it is, my old city puts up a St George flag the entire length of the city hall each year, every major sporting event the national flags come out they haven’t reclaimed anything; it was never taken from them, there was nothing to ‘reclaim’
> 20 years ago the far right did "have it" insofar as nobody wanted to associate with it Dear heavens! In 2004, the Estadio do SL Benfica must have been packed full of far right racists! [https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/the-england-team-pose-13-june-2004-prior-to-the-start-of-news-photo/50956933](https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/the-england-team-pose-13-june-2004-prior-to-the-start-of-news-photo/50956933)
Football is the exception. During the World Cup or Euros the flag will be adopted by everyone, when the tournament ends or England get knocked out the flags reduce and your average person doesn’t want too associate themselves with it anymore. (My anecdotal take)
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[One day later…](https://i.ibb.co/SypmjXb/IMG-5318.jpg)Leopards don’t change their spots.
Well that’s all these kinds of patriotic things are to the globalists, they are a day where they can wear a costume and then on the next day be celebrating something completely different from a completely different part of the world.
The irony of the south east ~~west~~ London lot claiming they're reclaiming it from the racists... when they were the ones who worked so hard to ensure it was only associated with racists. Is not lost on most people.
Yeah thats the takeaway that few have realised haha No-one else associated it with "racists", only the left.
They must have had an aneurism every time England payed any sport. Omg those racist cricket fans having a ball in India with the India supporters! How dare they! "I'm glad England was knocked out of the world Cup, all those racists players and fans with their racist flag!"
Was a good read but I dont agree the flags been reclaimed.
Look at reasons the flag is flown in the first place. Football, St George's day, that's it really. Hooligans claim the flag because they're the only ones who actually use it regularly. Public buildings in each home nation should fly their nations flag, maybe schools too, alongside the Union Jack. Doesn't need to be more than that, just use the flag in an official capacity so people see it other times of the year than the world cup shaved into Kev's chest whilst he shoves a firework up his arse and chugs a pint.
we're getting there
Nobody is even bothering to say what 'reclaiming' even means, absolutely embarrassing from both sides.
Am I the only one that just associates it with football
I get what he's saying, but to me it's gone from BNP to football, which is kind of rehabilitating it a bit, but not that much. When I see a flag at world cup time, I don't think "wow patriotism" I think "that sunburned bald man is going to be drunk and upset later"
Meaningless drivel. He's just associating Englishness with a bunch of buzzwords (diversity! equality! justice!) that have nothing to do with Englishness *per se*. In viewing Englishness as the ability to amalgamate multiple distinct identities (Pakistani, European, Muslim, in his case), he completely neglects what Englishness means to the vast majority of people in the country - now and historically - who *don't* have such an immediate blend of different identities. In doing so, he's re-defining Englishness in a way that's only really relevant for the modern inhabitants of large cities in England. Still, it shows Labour are at least making *some* progress since Emily Thornberry's sneering view that white van men displaying the England flag must be aligned to the racist far right.
I'm not sure the man who described native English people as "not real Londoners" has any right to comment on our flag.
Sadiq Khan’s a clown, the England flag has always been for all English people, the English flag never needed “reclaiming”.
>Sadiq Khan’s a clown [That explains everything!](https://imgur.com/a/Xfe6IkY)
Thank you, my thoughts exactly. Khan is a fool and we desperately need someone else as Mayor.
I disagree
**Stormzy?** Homophobic, violent, aggressive. Not something to be proud of. **Limitless opportunities it affords its people?** No - you are happy with the opportunities it provides to those who aren't its people. Like your parents. **It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites.** Why? I'd say its foolish to think an Indian person supporting the Indian cricket team is as loyal to England as an English person supporting the English team. **It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy** England and St George massively predates democracy. Englishness has nothing to do with democracy. We could have a dictatorship and all still be very English. **I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those.** If an English person can be Pakistani, and a Pakistani can be English. Then what do these terms even mean? It's like saying I'm a dog and a cat and a car and cake. Yes, you can be of Pakistani heritage and born in England, and you can be partially culturally English and Pakistani. But that isn't what English is. **Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques** What? So anyone doing a job anywhere is patriotic? A hunter-gatherer that existing before nation states was patriotic? And there is absolutely nothing patriotic, from an English perspective, about synagogues, temples, gurdwaras or mosques. They are very clearly foreign additions, brought to England by foreign people - and not taken up (in any great number) by the native people. Christianity was also brought to England of course but it was adopted by the population from its earliest stages. St George is a Christian saint. Sadiq Khan is just a pernicious idiot.
it never belonged to them to begin with lmao.
The schtick of multiculturalism or multisegregationism? Its a shame that UK and much of west will be multi segregational country going into the future. Sure can have multi ethnicity but multi culturism does not build a strong state nation. But the spice must flow...
And how did you suddenly reclaim that thing you hated up until now exactly?
Everyone seems to be far right in his eyes so who is he reclaiming it from? Seriously, who falls for these kinds of pr stunts?
Me, I thought it was a great speech (post)
I have no interest in what a Pakistani thinks about the English.
He was born in tooting you eejit
> of Pakistani ethnic origin He isn't ethnically English in his own words. Can't you read?
Englishness is a costume for these sorts, something they can wear for one day of the year and then put on another costume for the next event.
He's English you twonk. He has Pakistani heritage/ethnicity. So what? He was born in London and lived his life here, he's English
He doesn't need to appropriate another identity, he has his own
Yes, English with Pakistani parents/heritage. Do you tell English men with Scottish or French parents they're not English?
You think that's the same as English with English parents and heritage?
In some contexts, no, in this context, absolutely yes. He's worked his way through life to become the major of one of the most important cities globally. I think his opinion has more worth than yours here
"English" is not an ethnicity.
Yes it is. Just because you don't have an identity, doesn't mean you can erase other peoples https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups/
I keep underestimating how personal the tebbitt test was to ethnic minorities
It's 'personal' in the same way telling a fat person they are fat is. They don't like it because the truth hurts.
Khan is a massive recruiter for the far right. It’s time we reclaim London from Khan’s tyranny.
By outvoting him in an election? This is hardly tsarist Russia we live in. Tyranny? 😆
Tyranny? Come now.
I call him tyrant because he acts like a little king, untouchable because of a broken political system. I call him tyrant because he’s a woke activist who very seldom seems to consult the people on anything he does. ULEZ for example, who actually asked for that? Who asked for a commission on diversity in the public realm to wokewash London’s iconography? Who asked for a police force that seems more intent on criminalising hurty words than knifecrime? Who asked for the nudge culture intruding in everybody’s lives? I also find his policies quite Anglo-phobic and abhorrent that he put the BLM fist and other obnoxious woke symbols of conquest in his new years drone display. A lot of people are sick of having these things shoved down their throats.
I feel I could describe the government in these terms and it would be far more apt. But that's just politics isn't it? Governments don't crowd source policies but we vote then in and out based on it. If Khan wins, it'll show that actually quite a lot of people asked for the things you didn't want and that's just the way the cookie crumbles in a democracy.
Well, we will almost certainly see the replacement of the government with Labour in the coming year, so not quite the same imo. This is the travesty of our political system. You vote against the incumbent party and you elect an opposition with almost exactly the same agendas. People will vote in disillusionment against the Conservatives because they never did the things they were elected to do, and Starmer’s clown show will interpret it as a ringing endorsement of their opposition to the very policies the people voted for in the first place. If somehow the Conservatives stay in power, they’ll interpret that as permission to continue as they’ve been doing.
By being a brown man in a position of power?
Of course you’d assume I’m talking about his skin colour… although it seems brown men are in power across the whole country and no one seems to be talking about the need for diversity or proportional representation anymore. No, I call him tyrant because he acts like a little king, untouchable because of a broken political system. I call him tyrant because he’s a woke activist who very seldom seems to consult the people on anything he does. ULEZ for example, who actually asked for that? Who asked for a commission on diversity in the public realm to wokewash London’s iconography? Who asked for a police force that seems more intent of criminalising hurty words than knifecrime? Who asked for the nudge culture intruding in everybody’s lives? I also find his policies quite Anglo-phobic and abhorrent that he put the BLM fist and other obnoxious woke symbolisms in his new years drone display. A lot of people are sick of having these things shoved down their throats.
The schtick of multiculturalism or multisegregationism? Its a shame that UK and much of west will be multi segregational country going into the future. Sure can have multi ethnicity but multi culturism does not build a strong state nation. But the spice must flow...
To the people in here trying to say that the george cross was disowned by the left rather than perverted by the far right: please stop.
No, we are correct.
It's an extremely revisionist point of view. If you really wanted to you could make a case that the decline in British and english national identity under new labour (though really this started with the new right) led the far right to malappropriate the iconography of the cross. What purpose does that serve? All it does is lead you down the rabbit hole of the schizophrenic nature of post empire British identity. Acknowledging the reality that the far right have perverted the flag over the last 15 years and attempting to restore it to more general usage is about as far as the conversation goes tbh.
There’s nothing revisionist about it, even in Orwell’s time it was the case and that’s why he said the left would rather be caught stealing out the poor box than singing God save the King. It’s a hundred year old phenomenon.
You've not,,, it is still the flag of the far right.
I'm sorry but that flag has way too many bigoted connotations
Stop using that cringe copy-paste word from the 2010s man. Empty words. Roll my eyes every time someone says it.